This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:09] Dan Tracy: Welcome to Guys Who Like Musicals. My name is Dan Tracy.

[0:13] Joe Carroll: My name is Joe Carroll, and we are two Broadway loving guys.

[0:22] Dan Tracy: That's us. And this week, we're talking to John Riddle.

[0:25] Joe Carroll: That's right, John Riddle from Broadway's Phantom of the Opera. We're calling this Hans on Hans. It's a conversation about Frozen, but it's also just a conversation about John. I've known John, we both known John since college. We were the same year, him at CCM, me at Michigan. He's just a great guy and couldn't have been nicer in me coming over and taking over his role that he created in Frozen. It's such a crazy thing. When you join a Broadway show, or you join a company that has been in existence, it can be sort of scary. You're like, I'm entering a family that has already been set up, and he couldn't have been more warm and welcoming and gave me all the tips about playing the bad guy. We get into all that. We talk about his Broadway debut in The Visit. We talk about Phantom of the Opera, which he's currently doing on Broadway.

[1:42] Dan Tracy: Highlights for me from this one... listen to the part where he starts talking about working on The Visit with John Doyle and Kander and Ebb and Chita Rivera and his feelings about musical theater and the industry. That part to me was my absolute favorite. He's such a musical theater purist and he loves this business and speaks very eloquently about the process of putting a show together and working with legends.

[2:16] Joe Carroll: It's funny, he's had so many career goals for people in such a short amount of time. He's not even thirty.

[2:34] Dan Tracy: It's a really great interview. He has this presence, like someone who's probably ten years older than he is. He's really self-reflective and has a lot of great tidbits about what it was like to be in the original rooms of Frozen, what it was like to put that together. It was really cool for me because I just joined, I jumped on this Ferris wheel that's been going for the last couple of years. To get a sense of what it was like to make something like this and then to make something totally different in The Visit.

[3:08] Joe Carroll: If people don't know, The Visit only ran on Broadway for a couple of months. It was Kander and Ebb, Chita Rivera directed by John Doyle. It was this little passion project that almost didn't happen, came to fruition kind of at the last minute. He tells a great audition story about auditioning on a Tuesday and booking a job on a Thursday. Frozen was the polar opposite, where it was months and months of auditions and re-auditions. Then building this colossus of a musical, it's really cool.

[3:42] Dan Tracy: I've had a total talent crush on the guy since 2009 when I first saw him. We were the same age, and seeing when YouTube was really coming out, being like John Riddle's gonna be a superstar, and he is. We touch on something that's on all of our minds, which is how does social media fit into this business and the live nature of the business.

[4:21] Joe Carroll: That'd be a great DM question. If anybody out there has real strong thoughts about the good and bad of social media and what access means to you, we'd love to hear from you.

[4:30] John Riddle: Because like it's hard for me to batch social media when like we're here making a show that is intended to give access.

[4:37] Dan Tracy: Totally, but it's different.

[4:39] John Riddle: Like I understand that it's different than like constantly barraging people with your Instagram stories and like kind of bragging about like where you are, like that kind of social media is like really difficult for me, but there's something that feels like a calling to me to like try and pass on the little that I have experienced to people.

[4:59] John Riddle: So like I do kind of love social media for that. So it's kind of a complicated issue that we touch on here.

[5:04] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[5:06] Dan Tracy: This was a really fun Hans on Hans. I thought we could talk the whole interview as Hans and Franz from SNL. We were going to pump you up, but we didn't for your benefit.

[5:21] Joe Carroll: Here's John Riddle.

[5:23] John Riddle: Can I just say something crazy?

[5:27] Dan Tracy: I love crazy.

[5:29] John Riddle: Welcome to this edition of Hans on Hans. In this edition of Hans on Hans, Hans will have Hans put all over Hans.

[5:41] Joe Carroll: Isn't that what we're doing?

[5:42] John Riddle: That's what we do.

[5:47] John Riddle: Guys, right now my Hans are on both of these Hans. You're in a Hans sandwich.

[5:53] John Riddle: I had this idea when we started this thing, because this is now into season two when we started this little podcast. I was like, I gotta get John on here and we'll have a segment, we'll call it Hans on Hans. All that really means is we'll have you on and we'll talk to you the same way. I think it'll be fun. We can talk about our shared experience on that show, and I also want to pick your brain about all the other things.

[6:17] Joe Carroll: First of all, we just talked about it as you were walking in, but Phantom of the Opera.

[6:17] John Riddle: Yeah, I'm doing Phantom of the Opera right now.

[6:22] Joe Carroll: How is it?

[6:23] John Riddle: I don't know. Every time I say The Phantom of the Opera, I say it like the Phantom of the Opera.

[6:26] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[6:27] John Riddle: It's super fun. Phantom was the first show I ever saw. I was four years old, and my parents were not theater people. My dad's a woodworker and he has a woodworking shop. He kept hearing this commercial for this show called The Phantom of the Opera that was on tour in Toronto, and he was like, I don't know what this is, but it sounds like something we need to go to. That was our Christmas present that year. My dad took our family up to Toronto and we saw this show, and I didn't even know what a musical was or what theater was. I sat and watched this show, and for three hours I said nothing, sat at the front of my seat.

[7:11] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[7:11] John Riddle: My dad said after I turned to him, and I was like, Dad, that's what I want to do when I grow up.

[7:16] Joe Carroll: And you were four.

[7:17] John Riddle: And I was four, I think. Then I started rattling off all these things about the show, like the elephant was blah blah blah, all these things that he was like, I don't even see any of that.

[7:27] Joe Carroll: Oh my god.

[7:28] John Riddle: That was kind of the beginning, I guess. People say when they get bit by the bug. I guess that was my bug. So now I get to do it all these years later.

[7:39] Joe Carroll: That's really nice to make full circle.

[7:41] John Riddle: It's kind of fun.

[7:41] Joe Carroll: From a musical theater nerd's perspective, it's epic.

[7:46] John Riddle: Whether you discover it when you're four or you discover it later, I remember seeing it in Chicago when I was probably ten. I remember the end when the mask is at the very end. I remember that so vividly as a ten-year-old being like, Wait, how'd they do that? What is that?

[8:13] Joe Carroll: You don't even know what chills are when you're ten.

[8:15] John Riddle: I remember getting chills. It's a really magical thing.

[8:26] Joe Carroll: Do they still do the pyrotechnics?

[8:27] John Riddle: Oh, yeah.

[8:28] Joe Carroll: That's what I would never forget. I was in maybe the 12th row, and you could feel the heat coming from the stage. There had just been this really tragic fire in Rhode Island that set a standard for fire safety across the country because it was so bad. Two weeks later, I went to see Phantom, and my mom and I were like, oh my god, can you imagine what that was like for those people?

[8:30] John Riddle: Yeah, it was interesting context.

[8:30] Joe Carroll: We're starting very positive.

[8:30] John Riddle: We're starting very positive.

[8:30] Joe Carroll: But our imitating life.

[8:30] John Riddle: Right. You said that it's fun to sing. They don't make it like that anymore with those giant sets and a full orchestra every night.

[8:30] Joe Carroll: How many pieces?

[8:30] John Riddle: Twenty-three piece orchestra or something.

[8:30] Joe Carroll: Yeah, every night.

[8:30] John Riddle: To get to do that is pretty cool. No offense to the LED screens, but if I see one more LED screen at a theater...

[8:30] Joe Carroll: Yeah, totally.

[8:30] John Riddle: It's really... I'm with you a hundred percent. Paint a sheet and hang it up, and that's more interesting to me.

[8:30] Joe Carroll: I completely agree.

[8:30] John Riddle: Hell Prince knew how to put on a show. Rest in peace.

[8:30] Joe Carroll: Did you ever get to meet him?

[8:30] John Riddle: I got my agent called me the day after he passed.

[8:30] Joe Carroll: Oh wow.

[8:30] John Riddle: No, I never got to meet him unfortunately, but you can feel his ghost in every majestic theater around Broadway.

[8:30] Joe Carroll: You can feel it.

[8:30] John Riddle: What would you say a show like that... because Frozen, we'll get into Frozen and stories from around the St. James, but why has Phantom lasted so long?

[10:41] Dan Tracy: I mean, this is kind of—I don't know why this question pops in my head, but do you—is there something going on over there? Is there something in the Kool-Aid that, like, I don't know because...

[10:45] Joe Carroll: I wonder the same thing. We have a great schedule. I love it. We have a Thursday matinee, and those Thursday matinees are still packed. Some nights they're sold out, and I just think it's mind-blowing that this play has been running every single night for the last 32 years.

[11:15] John Riddle: It's a worldwide phenomenon that happens in pop culture, like Frozen, to be honest. Everybody knows what Phantom is, and it still holds up.

[11:35] Joe Carroll: I think it's a combination of the music, the sets, and the drama of it.

[11:46] John Riddle: It's that high drama, like why people like Les Mis. It's so theatrical that people who don't even love musicals are like, I love Phantom.

[11:56] Joe Carroll: There's something in it for everybody, even if you don't know what a musical is.

[12:02] John Riddle: I don't know how to describe it, but it blows my mind that people still show up every night.

[12:09] Joe Carroll: My agent came to see me when I was doing Moulin Rouge last summer. He was talking about the pillars of theatricality, which is an old Greek idea. One of the pillars is spectacle. Even if you don't know anything and can't appreciate the singing, the spectacle of Phantom is massive.

[12:29] John Riddle: There are gaudy costumes and beautiful sets.

[12:45] Joe Carroll: That's why we go to the theater, because that's the only place you can experience that sort of thing.

[12:51] John Riddle: You can't see that on television. Game of Thrones is the peak of theatricality, but it's on film.

[13:01] Joe Carroll: I'm sure there's a Game of Thrones musical in the works.

[13:06] John Riddle: There's something so exciting about that.

[13:06] Joe Carroll: I'm bringing up the LED screens again, but it's just like you're not fooling anybody; it's a cop-out.

[13:22] John Riddle: I understand it's expensive, but that's part of what makes it work too.

[13:28] Joe Carroll: The one thing I found is that there's a lot of LED in Frozen. It allows two actors to be on a big stage talking to each other.

[13:41] John Riddle: And so that also had some, I was like, oh, this is actually just two people, like in you know, all of the the love is an open door stuff and all of the scenes between El Sinon are just two people talking to each other.

[13:51] John Riddle: Like.

[13:51] John Riddle: Yes, there's a lot of stuff going around them, but the other way to do it would be like a Shakespearean approach, where you just have to imagine it.

[14:08] John Riddle: In your imagination, and now they're like, okay, so she's gonna put her hand here, and there's gonna be some magic. You know, I don't know. Yeah, I think that that's what like it cheapens that the idea of that, you know.

[14:23] Joe Carroll: We don't need to see Elsa shoot ice out of her hands on projections because we can imagine that's what she's doing.

[14:31] John Riddle: The best moments for me are actually the simplest. There's a moment when her glove flies off before "Let It Go," and that is an old school theater trick from a million years ago.

[14:43] Dan Tracy: It's a glove on chicken white, it's practical. And every and somebody pulls it and the old audience goes, yeah, right. Just it works. Just do that. Like, yeah, but it's not digital, yeah. But it's a practical, it's a practical, and it's and it still is like the most. I mean, there's a lot of that in Harry Potter, like a lot of Harry Potter. Don't spoil it, Joe.

[15:00] Joe Carroll: I'm not, but it's a practical. I'm saying practical magic as opposed to like instead of like screen magic. It's like the good old fashioned um what's that? What's the word? It escapes me. But like it's like just good old-fashioned sleight of hand.

[15:13] John Riddle: Yeah, they've been doing it since the beginning of time.

[15:16] Dan Tracy: Yeah, exactly. All the vaudeville guys did it and it worked, right?

[15:19] Joe Carroll: Right, right. It still works. It still works. Um, so more we can get into some Hans on Hans frozen nonsense.

[15:25] John Riddle: I would love to.

[15:26] Dan Tracy: But uh Dan is in the middle. Uh who is more handsome?

[15:32] Joe Carroll: Sorry, Joe.

[15:33] John Riddle: Okay, great. So point John. I don't know who who is taller.

[15:37] Joe Carroll: Ooh, John.

[15:38] John Riddle: Okay, point John. Who has better hair?

[15:41] Joe Carroll: Point John.

[15:42] John Riddle: Well, yeah, I don't know though. Because Joe has really good hair. Joe's also very handsome.

[15:47] Joe Carroll: I know, but Joe does not give himself any credit. Joe thinks that he's trash by this.

[15:51] John Riddle: I think it's fun to just make it. John might have better hair. So if he's my podcast that if I were to our podcast, oh, yeah, yeah. Um, how did it all come about? What was the audition process like?

[16:00] John Riddle: Frozen? Yeah, for I mean, how did that how did it all come about for you?

[16:06] John Riddle: Okay, so I'm gonna give you the abridged version, kind of. Well, we have like, we'll we have four minutes. You know, you can go as deep or as you know. Well, I was in Canada working on this this I was doing this workshop in Canada, and my agent sends me an email for uh to play the king. Oh, and to come in audition for the king in the lab.

[16:26] Joe Carroll: Okay.

[16:30] John Riddle: And I hadn't was this the the the first lab with Alex Timbers?

[16:34] John Riddle: No, this was the second. This was the Alex Timbers lab had just happened.

[16:36] Joe Carroll: Right.

[16:39] John Riddle: And for people who don't know, Alex Timbers directed some early iterations of it, and Michael Grandage took over and directed the version that we have on Broadway. You know, sometimes shows, you know, direct directors and creative teams come in and out and stuff, and that's a whole nother can of worms that we don't necessarily need to launch into. But so you're going in for the the king and the first Grandage Lab.

[16:57] John Riddle: So I originally said no. I was like, it's not really something I'm interested in. I also hadn't seen the movie Frozen. And so um it just at that point in my life it wasn't really something I wanted to do. So I said no. And then Rachel Hoffman, thanks, Rachel, said, just come in, just do it, do the lab. Yeah, you know, even if you don't do it in the future, just come in and come hang out. Just come just come, just come in.

[17:25] John Riddle: Yeah, come in the room. And so I did, and um, and so I went in and it's I sang for Stephen Aramis, and he was like, nice. Brought me in for everybody. Uh huh. I was there for like Kristen Lopez and Bobby, and to be to play the king still. Yeah, and I think Tom Schumacher was there and everybody, Michael Grandage. And so I do my audition. It was whatever, it was fine. And um my agent calls me that night and he says they want you to come in tomorrow and read for Hans.

[17:59] John Riddle: Oh, I forgot this part. I actually I actually asked my agent, I was like, isn't there a dude in that that isn't there like a like a prince kind of guy? I played a couple princes in my life. And so I was like, isn't there a prince in that? Like, and so he was like, Yeah, but they they don't want to see you for that. So anyway, yeah. So I go in for the king. So anyway, I go in for this audition, my agent calls me and he's like, they want to see you tomorrow for Hans.

[18:23] John Riddle: So I was literally at a bar watching drag race. Yep. And when this when this call comes through, and he's like, you have to go back in tomorrow. I was like, okay, so I leave the bar, go home, watch Frozen the movie, because I still have not seen the movie. Um, go learn this little cut of Love as an open door and like read through the scene a couple times. Yeah. And I went in the next day and um read for everybody again.

[18:52] John Riddle: That was for everybody. Yeah, for that same for the whole creative. Yeah, like the whole Disney. No, it was just like shot out of a canon. Yeah. And so I went in, walked out, I was like, eh, that was I think that was fine for you know, I did what I could. And so the weekend rolls around, and I get a call on Monday, and Rachel says, Hey, can you come in and put yourself on tape again? Put your audition on on tape again. Um, on Tuesday, and I went in, did it on Tuesday, and that night they offered me the workshop to do Hans in the workshop.

[19:29] Joe Carroll: Did we so you recorded they had you come back and just do it for Rachel?

[19:33] John Riddle: Yeah, I just did it. Yeah, I just did it on film in a room. Because Michael Grandage had to go back to uh London because he lives in London, and he wasn't in town, and I guess they wanted to just see me again on tape. I'm not really sure. Yeah. But anyway, like show it to every single person at Disney or something. Yeah, exactly. Somebody they wanted it to be archived, right? You know, which I will do. So we we did that, and then so I I got the offer to do it and um to do the lab.

[19:56] John Riddle: To do the lab. Just the lab. Just the lab. And then we did the lab, and it went great. It was it was super fun, informative, hard work. Um, and then they were like, okay, uh, we'll be in touch. And we're like, wait, what? Because usually, I don't know, some we all kind of thought, okay, this is going well. Yeah. You know, I think, but they were like, no, we'll be in touch. So we had, well, a group of us, myself included, had to come back in and audition like three months later for this job for the next section of the lab.

[20:38] Joe Carroll: Oh, because there was another lab after that.

[20:40] John Riddle: Right. And so we came in, auditioned at the Little Schubert Theater on stage, which was like the most old school thing in the whole entire world. And they paired us up and read with people. And I came back, I was like, Yeah, sure, I'll come back and audition because I wanted the job. Yeah. Right. And came back in, and um it was another three weeks after that that I waited around. I went to Dallas to go do a production of West Side Story, and um, and then three weeks later, got a phone call, and they said, Whoa, do you want to do it on Broadway?

[21:13] John Riddle: Wow. So it was a really long drawn-out process. It's about as Broadway as I can.

[21:22] Joe Carroll: Yeah, it was it was that like sort of horror, every actor's horror story where you're just waiting around wondering if you got it. Can I ask? Um, we were just talking about this because um I had an audition this afternoon where I got paired with someone and I wasn't ready to do that. How is that experience actually having to like do sometimes? For those of you who don't know, most of the time we in auditions are reading to like an open room, sort of like facing a group of people, and then there's someone sitting in a chair who reads the lines with you, but you're not actually like acting in a space, you're just kind of like fake acting or lack of a lack of a better explanation.

[22:06] John Riddle: It's a very unknown, but it's like a experience. It's definitely unnatural, but what I mean is that it's not like traditional acting, like you would ever do it ever again after that. But in this experience, they say you're gonna like read with people in that. So, how was how did you navigate that experience? And like, was there anything that you noticed that you may have done that other people weren't doing, or like how did that experience? Do you feel like you like booked it?

[22:26] John Riddle: Like um, I never feel like I book it because I am self-deprecating and I just kid my. It's like Joe, it must be a Hans thing. Yeah, you have to be super self-deprecating. Everyone's gonna go in their auditions now and be like, No, but it's it's uh what are they called? Self-preservation. I mean, you go in for so many freaking things, and you're like, you're like, if I go in for every single thing, like this is gonna be the date where I meet my wife, then you're just gonna get your heart broken four times a we're gonna be able to do it. And it's like, yeah, so I'm with you 100%. I mean, there's a middle ground because you do have to go in and pretend that you're gonna get it. Because otherwise, yeah, I don't know. You don't believe you could get it.

[23:08] Joe Carroll: Correct. Yeah, yeah. Right. But to answer a question, that's I'd never thought about that. Because it is an interesting experience too, because that other person that you're reading with when they pair you up like that is also auditioning. Right, of course. So you have a job, you have a responsibility to that person too. Because somebody could potentially sabotage your audition too.

[23:31] John Riddle: Absolutely. So I think the answer is is that you have to stick to your guns and kind of project what your idea of the scene or the character is onto that person the same way that you do with a reader in an audition, I think. It's super unnatural. Interesting because you have if you have if you're reading with three different girls and you do the scene three different times, it's gonna be different because you're right, you do also have to connect with that person, and that person has a different energy than girl number two. So it's that's a weird thing.

[24:07] Joe Carroll: Did you totally a weird thing? Did you get paired with Patty?

[24:10] John Riddle: Patty wasn't there.

[24:12] Joe Carroll: Oh.

[24:12] John Riddle: Because Patty was in Chicago.

[24:14] Joe Carroll: Okay.

[24:15] John Riddle: So Patty wasn't in that initial group of women. And then, which is why it took so long after the fact, because Patty and I had done the reading together, and then the first reading, and then when I came back in to audition, Patty couldn't be there. So she didn't read. But then after that, they brought Patty back in.

[24:37] Joe Carroll: Did her not with me.

[24:38] John Riddle: Got it.

[24:46] Joe Carroll: Got it. That's so crazy.

[24:48] John Riddle: So it was a very strange speaking of unnatural experiences. Like, that is not how auditions work. No, right. And I and I say this, and we've said this on the podcast a lot. Like, auditions are horrible. And they're horrible for everybody. And especially in that one, because there's just so much pressure for like all parties involved. You know, like Disney has this massive property, and they want to make sure that it's as good as possible. So they're feeling the heat. And then there's a bunch of actors who are like, this could change my career. We're all feeling the heat. And it's like, like that kind of common. I wish there was more common misery, you know, you know, about like everybody like to talk about self-deprecating. Like I wish that in those moments.

[25:26] John Riddle: Actually, when I walked in for my final callback for Grandage, he was like, he he said, it was the greatest thing that anybody had ever said to me before a final callback. He said, You did brilliant yesterday. Just do the same thing in front of all these people. See, I wish it was always that. You know, and it was really it. I was like, oh my gosh, he just put me, it really put me at ease because I didn't know what I was walking into either.

[25:46] Joe Carroll: Right.

[25:47] John Riddle: And you also, in that final callback setting, you're like, wait, should I do should I show them something else? Which I think the answer is no, because there's a reason why they keep calling you back in. Right. So do what you do. I was just trying to figure this out, you know.

[26:01] Joe Carroll: Like when you at your call back today.

[26:03] John Riddle: Yeah, my callback today, because it was like supposed to be really funny. And I was like, okay, do I need to be more funny? Right. Do I need to be funny in a different way? Because now they're not gonna laugh as much as they did the last time because I'm gonna do the same thing again. Correct. And I totally got in my own head about it, and I totally just got in my own head in the audition about it. And I think the answer, I don't know, but I think the answer is do the same.

[26:22] Joe Carroll: I do too.

[26:23] John Riddle: I do too. Yeah. Because there's a reason you got a callback. And they're just bringing in more people, like to see it, you know. You know, like when you go through the process of auditioning, the reason you get callback and call back and call back is because there's more people there time and time again. So, like at my final, there were more people from Disney, you know. Like, I hadn't met Tom Schumacher any in court, and they were there. So it's like they want to see what sh what Grandage saw the day before, or whatever. You know what I mean? And I'm like, can't you just show them the damn tape? I because they tape all these auditions anyway.

[26:53] Joe Carroll: Yeah, but I have a whole thing about that.

[26:55] John Riddle: It's hard, too, because like the tapes are never as good, you know.

[26:57] Joe Carroll: The tapes are well, that's the same thing as it's like that's what we were talking about before. That's the difference between film and the theater.

[27:04] John Riddle: Yes, no, totally exactly it's a different experience, and totally strange. So then uh in the whole Denver, so then you you booked the Denver production, and it's it's going. What do you remember? Like the I mean it's kind of a lame question, but fondest memory. Do you have a fondest, like honestly?

[27:21] John Riddle: My fondest memory was the this is gonna be so corny, but it's a corny question. But when you put a new show like that together, and there's all this expectation and this hype of it's gonna be this big thing, and we were this group of people that had kind of we had all gone through this sort of rigorous audition process, and so once it was the group that they decided on, and we all went to Denver, we all kind of just bonded together, yeah.

[27:54] John Riddle: And um, we were in this amazing city, and we were putting on this giant Broadway musical, and um, it was kind of the best. We had all this expectation like we're going to Broadway, and we're in the mountains, and it was just kind of this beautiful moment in time and I think that that also um I think that that sort of informed some of the heart of the show too because that's when you're making a new piece, it's about it becomes what it is because of the people that are in it, and it evolves over time, totally you know.

[28:33] John Riddle: Um, but that is a that's something I won't ever forget is just that time of of that process was really sort of a beautiful yeah moment.

[28:41] Joe Carroll: You like standing on the I mean, this is I make this this cheesy Jersey boys comment a lot, but where you at the end of that when they say there's four guys under a street lamp when it was all still ahead of us, that was the high point. Like the beginning, there's so much anticipation, yeah. And especially around something like that, like and I felt this when we were doing Mulan Rivers last summer, the there's just pressure, like the pressure, you can feel it like in the walls. Everybody is like, this is huge, and we want to make it as good as possible. And sometimes that's not conducive to art, but it's actually conducive to like relationships, you know.

[29:13] John Riddle: You can totally you like cling to those people because you're kind of in the shit together. Well, that's the thing that um I'm gonna get in trouble for saying this too, but that's kind of the thing that I feel is missing from the theater right now is that some people are doing it, so it's not universal, but I think a lot of theater is based on making money, and it's we're forgetting the reason that all of us love this thing so much, and it's creating this thing that means something, and we get caught up in the pressure of making it good so that people will come and buy tickets.

[29:52] John Riddle: But if you've if you actually just leave all of that stuff aside and put all the pressure aside, then get on with it, you're gonna make good theater, and then people are going to buy tickets to your show. Because it's just good. Because it's just a good piece of storytelling, right? And um, and I find that to be not so present.

[30:17] Joe Carroll: Yeah, the commercial aspect.

[30:19] John Riddle: No, I'm not a producer, and I'm not writing million dollar checks, so you know, maybe I'm just being a and Joe talks about this too because it like it becomes commerce once something is like open for a while, right?

[30:30] Dan Tracy: Right.

[30:30] John Riddle: But when we're starting something, we shouldn't be making decisions based on how much money we want the thing to make. Are people going to like something as good as we can? Are people going to like this? I don't know.

[30:41] Dan Tracy: Right.

[30:41] John Riddle: Do you think do you think any do you think like Picasso was like Yes? I wonder if this will sell.

[30:47] Joe Carroll: Yeah, right.

[30:49] John Riddle: No, right. No, he was slapping some paint on some canvas. Right. And he was like, I think this is I think this is cool. And that I I forget who said this, but but commerce always follows art. It's not the other way around. So we you make the art, and then people go, wait, that was awesome. We want to buy tickets to it, or or we want to buy the record, we want to buy. Oh, it's Rick Rubin. Rick Rubin was talking about music, and and I was listening to this interview, and he was talking about like you know, the guy changed the face of music from the Beastie Boys to to L O Cool J to what you know, he worked at Tom Petty and all these people, and he's like, No, it it it must start with the art, you know.

[31:25] Dan Tracy: Right, and that's interesting to go back to Phantom of the Opera because I I'm pretty sure that at that time when Phantom the Opera came into New York, no one was making shows like that anymore. And they were like, actually, no, there's gonna be something here, I promise.

[31:38] Joe Carroll: And then there was.

[31:39] John Riddle: Yeah. Everyone was saying the Howl Prince was crazy, and now you know.

[31:42] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[31:42] John Riddle: But like he's a great example. Look at the look at his body of work.

[31:46] Dan Tracy: Oh my god, it's insane.

[31:47] John Riddle: We talked about him when he passed on the show.

[31:49] Dan Tracy: Yeah, we did like a look at all those shows he did.

[31:53] John Riddle: Do you think it seems as though for he was never concerned about whether people were going to like it or not? I mean, of course we are because if he liked it almost, it was like currently you know, I want to make something that I want to go see in the theater. Yeah, I want to have the experience that I had when I was little, and I want to make that, and that was what Phantom was.

[32:15] John Riddle: I got I got to work with John Doyle, and he's one of the people who I feel like is doing that. He always he always said that the theater is for the people, so once you make the thing, then you turn it over to them, and they are going to either take it or leave it. But that's not up to you as the creator.

[32:40] Dan Tracy: Yeah, he's I always go back to him because he I just the way he approaches it is from a non-commerce way, totally, and he's just interested in in making theater, making art and it's I wish that how do we, I don't know, how do we how do we do more of that?

[33:04] Joe Carroll: Yeah, we should get John Doyle in here.

[33:08] John Riddle: Yeah, he'd be a vault of knowledge.

[33:10] Dan Tracy: He worked with him on the visit, right?

[33:12] John Riddle: Yeah, that's a great transition.

[33:14] Dan Tracy: Oh good.

[33:14] John Riddle: Yeah, was that your um Broadway day debut?

[33:16] John Riddle: That was my Broadway debut.

[33:17] Dan Tracy: And how did did you do that at Williamstown?

[33:19] John Riddle: No. So I um I didn't. I didn't. I got a call. So speaking of.

[33:31] John Riddle: Okay. So I got I get a call to come in and audition for this show. And I did some research on it. And I was, I've always been a huge Cander and Ebb fan. Like and so I was all jazzed about it. And I went in. Oh, that's a bad Cander and Eb joke. Oh my God. I can't believe I just did that. That is a really joke. Um that jazz. Sorry. I have to leave.

[33:56] John Riddle: Um so I went in on Valentine's Day, actually, I remember that. And um sang for the music director, and I brought this song in, and he was like, that's kind of a tricky song. Are you sure you want to do it? I was like, I really want to sing this. What was it? It was Lonely House from which I don't think is that tricky of a song, but um, it just fit the world of the of the play. So I was like, Yeah, I'm gonna sing that. I'm gonna sing this. And I did, and then they brought me back, and the next day I had my first Broadway show. Like I'm saying I went through the we were talking about how frozen and how drawn out the whole thing was, but we I went in on I don't know, whatever day it was, but it was Valentine's Day, and then I came back in the next day and did a little dance session with Graziella Danielle, and then that night I was in this, oh my gosh, I was in this rehearsal for this thing that I just really didn't want to be doing. And this concert, yep, no offense to anybody who was there. Um and my agent called and I was like, oh, thank God. And we started, I started rehearsal like four days later.

[35:04] John Riddle: That's so it was this like, yeah. And we only rehearsed the show, I think, for three weeks before we started previews on Broadway. So it was like this crazy, your life can really change in a second.

[35:16] Dan Tracy: That's an amazing story.

[35:17] John Riddle: What it like polar opposite to the frozen experience.

[35:19] Joe Carroll: Oh just like out of nowhere.

[35:21] John Riddle: Yeah. Right. You know, but you were ready for it. That's what something we talk about this all the time. Like you were, you're just clipping along, and then you were you preparation met opportunity at this moment.

[35:30] Dan Tracy: Right.

[35:31] John Riddle: You know. And to to work with like that, if we go down that creative team and the people that was in that people that were in that show, she reverber among them. You like that's musical theater history at its finest with that crew. You know, was that ever where you kind of would you ever look around the room and be like, holy hell?

[35:47] John Riddle: I was fully aware the entire time. And I made sure I wrote a lot of stuff down during that point. That time of I I write a journal every day.

[35:57] Joe Carroll: Good.

[35:57] John Riddle: Oh, good. Um not every day. But um I made sure to write stuff down so that even if I never look at it again, it's somewhere written down because I remember having experiences like I would be sitting in the orchestra next to John Kander, and he's like scribbling notes, things to change. He's like, Oh, I'm gonna make that a C sharp or whatever. And he would lean, lean over to me and make some joke about that about that. And I just those are the kind of things that that I pinch myself because I got to experience that.

[36:37] John Riddle: And yeah, um, you know, Cheetah always says, which I love, she says, I suck, meaning she's like, I suck. Meaning that she um absorbs from everybody because she clearly doesn't suck. Right. But she sucks all the good out of everybody that she is around. So talk about a person who's had a vast life experience. And it's all made up of the people that she's worked with and been on stage with and met in life. And that becomes a part of your tapestry. So when you're in those types of situations, I think it's really important to suck, or for maybe a better word is absorb.

[37:20] Joe Carroll: Absorb, yeah.

[37:21] John Riddle: Um is to absorb. You're just supposed to suck everyone.

[37:25] Joe Carroll: No, yeah, that's not what God.

[37:27] John Riddle: Um but to absorb that because it really does become a part of you, and that experience for me, um, it set the it's sort of set the bar for how to work in this business because those people are old school and they show up every day and they are prepared and they don't call out, they never miss a show. They you do it because it's what we do as people in the theater.

[37:58] Dan Tracy: Yeah, it's this mentality that I think is vanishing in our generation, and I'm determined to save it because I think it's really important. I think a lot of people take for granted what we do. Not a lot of people in this world get to be on a Broadway stage, and we do. And so the opportunity, it's not gonna last forever. You know, the visit lasted for three months, and it was truly some of probably the best three months of my life on a stage. And I think I'll try the rest of my career to try to match that in some way because it was just it felt like we were doing something important, and it was with people that I believed in, and speaking, we're talking about making art. Like those were people who were just making something, and not a lot of people responded to the show. We couldn't, it didn't sell, but it didn't matter because we were doing something really cool.

[39:01] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[39:02] John Riddle: And it felt good. That is that it closed three months later. I mean, it was heartbreaking, but of course it was an amazing experience.

[39:10] Dan Tracy: That's really interesting too, because I feel like so many times uh I'll speak for myself and say that like I'll go see a show and I'm like trying to decide whether or not a show is like gonna last instead of like trying to appreciate the heart that exists in the people that have made this thing, you know, right?

[39:32] John Riddle: Yeah, so like I I think yeah, I've seen things that maybe aren't my really my cup of tea, but I understand what went into that.

[39:42] John Riddle: Totally, and that's also extremely valid.

[39:46] Joe Carroll: Yeah, yeah, and we're I think we're supposed to defend art, you know, like as opposed to that's totally a Susan Sontag quote. But she says we're we're we're supposed to defend art, not critique it, you know. And I think that that's so valid for something like that because it's like people made a thing. People got up there, they they spent millions of dollars and millions of hours and they made a thing, and you didn't, and so you don't get to sit there just because you spent 125 bucks on a ticket and and critique something that you get you know, just sit there and or just say it's bad or it's not worth seeing when it's like it's not your taste or whatever it is. Like it's bad is not a legitimate critique in any way, right?

[40:28] John Riddle: Like talk about what you didn't connect to, yeah, but it might be the most amazing thing that some other person has ever seen. Because for everything we were talking about, with like like we go back to the to the projections and stuff in in Frozen for a couple theater purists who are like, you know, we want more sets and Lyle and Phantom and all of this stuff. Every person that I bring backstage is like the projections were amazing, and when she touches the thing and the ice and whatever, and I'm like, I mean, that is pretty cool.

[40:51] Joe Carroll: Yeah, it is pretty cool, right?

[40:52] John Riddle: So it's like that stuff is valid for certain people, you know. Um I wanted to I wanted to make it bad. We're all about the transitions on this show because sometimes they're good, sometimes they're bad. And Dan's transition to all the stuff about the visit was excellent.

[41:05] Dan Tracy: Best ever transition for hot.

[41:07] John Riddle: We got a hot transition.

[41:08] Joe Carroll: Hot transition, but what I wanted to based on your all everything that you were talking about. Um, did you get that musical theater work ethic uh purist mentality at school? Was that it? How when did that come into you know your fray, I guess? Was it truly through that show, or did that happen at school because you know you went to CC?

[41:31] John Riddle: Yeah, or like like your your sort of appreciation for the business, yeah. Your appreciation for the artists in that room. Like, did you learn about that? Because a lot of here's the other thing I'll say is that I've worked with a lot of people who you say candor and ebb, and they're like, Who is that? Right. You say cheater, not necessarily maybe not cheater of era, but some people certain certain people don't know who John Doyle is, and certain people when you you will mention a show and they've never heard of it and they're like, Well, you know, I don't even I don't even know musicals, I just do musicals, and I'm like, Yeah, well, good luck with that.

[42:03] Joe Carroll: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[42:03] John Riddle: Get out here sort of like you are doing this for a career. I don't know, so like, figure it out. I don't know politics, but I'm uh let's not go there.

[42:10] Joe Carroll: Yeah, but yes, no, but yes, like that, right?

[42:12] John Riddle: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[42:13] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[42:13] John Riddle: Like, know where you came from.

[42:15] Joe Carroll: Totally, totally.

[42:16] John Riddle: And know what came before you and all the people that did all the groundwork.

[42:19] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[42:19] John Riddle: Ahead of yeah. And was that was that a school thing, or was that just your own.

[42:23] John Riddle: Do you know what? I think actually, my dad is an artist, and my dad made me uh like everything had to be done. It was instilled in me very early that you do it right the first time, and you do it, um, you follow through, and yeah, uh, and I want to be more specific, but that's really kind of it's kind of simple as that. Like, you just do it right the first time, and as long as you put all of your effort into it and made it the best that you can the first time, yeah, then chances are you're gonna succeed at it, and also to like I remember oh my god, I used to cry. I had this, I had he would my dad would in high school, I would write my papers, and then my dad would read them, be like, that's not really good enough.

And I would have to rewrite them. He sounds like such a hard ass, but I'm so thankful for that because it did make me then when I you know the next week when I would write another paper, I would made it, I just did it right the first time, right? Do you know what I mean?

[43:29] Joe Carroll: Yeah, right, and then that became something that like you valued, yeah.

[43:32] John Riddle: It wasn't just something that was like forced.

[43:34] Joe Carroll: Correct.

[43:34] John Riddle: And at the time I wanted to, I wanted to punch my dad, but yeah, now I'm really thankful that that was just built into my DNA from an early age, because I think that especially in what we do, it really is. I think it really is in a lot of situations. Like, are you working the hardest? Because the person next to you is working harder than you.

[44:00] John Riddle: Right.

[44:01] Joe Carroll: A hundred percent.

[44:02] John Riddle: And you know, there's a lot of other factors to it. It's like there's talent, there's you know, the way you look, like your hair, you know, like it's all like all your stupid things too. But at the end of the day, it's like who hard work, I think always pays off.

[44:21] Dan Tracy: 100%.

[44:22] John Riddle: Yeah. And then I think I think that now the point where I've gotten in in my career and in my development with hard work is like, okay, so what what is the hard work? And like where is that focus and like what is too much work and too in an area of the world. Because that's sometimes that's another thing where you can be too prepared, and then I've lost jobs because I like can't like uh take notes or like you know, those kinds of things too. So it's like it's definitely complicated, but it's about like you can't just kind of half ass through this. But I think it's finding your own way of working too in your own process, like in terms of I I guess I'm thinking about auditions, but it's like I know when I know how I audition when I audition well and how to do that, and it's usually preparedness, which means hard work, right?

[45:08] Joe Carroll: Right.

[45:08] John Riddle: And so I guess maybe preparedness is a better being prepared, yeah.

[45:13] Dan Tracy: More prepared than the person next to you.

[45:15] John Riddle: Right because the person next to you is gonna be more prepared than you are. So I love that. And you were prepared, you know, like having a dance background and like being able to do that dance session after your your after that, you know.

[45:26] John Riddle: Yeah, it's funny because I never really I don't I dance, but I'm not a dancer.

[45:32] Joe Carroll: Right.

[45:32] John Riddle: And you guys are, I mean, I Joe's Joe's like that too. I probably know a little bit more about Joe's dance background than yours, but Joe is like a secret dancer, yeah.

[45:42] Dan Tracy: Yeah, same secret dancer, yeah.

[45:43] John Riddle: Like you try to you try to keep you don't want a lot of people to know that because then they never know what they make you do.

[45:49] Joe Carroll: Right, right.

[45:50] John Riddle: Right. Cut to frozen, cut to frozen, and now and you're like singing your face off and throwing girls in the air.

[45:57] Joe Carroll: Yeah, I blame you for that.

[45:59] John Riddle: What?

[45:59] Joe Carroll: I blame you for that.

[46:00] John Riddle: I I actually can just sit here and be like, hey, thanks a lot. I'm really sorry.

[46:03] Joe Carroll: No, blame Rob Ashford.

[46:06] John Riddle: Right. No, but that was actually a great, that's a another good point. I I find that the frozen, you know, love is an open door is so effective. Um it's so funny. The choreography's great. It is a bastard on your body, like my whole left side of my body is in physical therapy, which I like we're it's part of it. But the dancing thing is like that is a secret that I think a lot of people should, a lot of guys especially should have in their back pocket because that is the reason I booked Frozen. That's the reason I booked Cinderella. My career is base, is is really, you know, a lot of my jobs have been because I could dance a little better than the next guy, and more so I could pick up girls and put them down, and and you know, the dance captain or the choreographer would be like, oh, this this guy's not gonna hurt anybody.

[46:55] Dan Tracy: Right.

[46:55] John Riddle: He has to sing, he's gotta tell a story, but he also when it gets to this moment, he's not gonna hurt anybody. That was the same way. My first job out of college was a Vita, and they I was cast as it was this weird hybrid of everybody danced in the show, but I was one of the dancer tracks, and I was I've never danced. It was the hardest thing to this day that I've ever done. I don't know how dancers like those kids over at Moulin Rouge who are kids. Yeah, um, at Moulin Rouge, who are like even they say they're wrecked. I mean it's I don't know how a I just have such a respect for proper dancers, yeah, because it is some it is it's brutal, and uh it is a sport, and the better they are, the easier they make it look, which is the worst thing. So you're like, oh, I could do that. But you're like not that not that you know, you watch a ballet and you're like, oh wow, that's beautiful, and it looks so easy, and they're just like dead, yeah.

[47:51] Joe Carroll: Like their bodies are wrecked, they like try to kick your leg above 90 degrees, right?

[47:55] John Riddle: But I had the same experience with as you if I didn't know how to dance, I would never be where I am right now because dance got me in the door, it got me the my jobs when I was first starting out, and um it's kind of continued.

[48:14] Dan Tracy: Yeah, yeah, you hear that kids? Yeah, there's two um sitting in the middle of a Han sandwich, two of Broadway's leading men, and they're telling you that you need to get in dance class, so don't listen to your hockey coach, yeah.

[48:26] Joe Carroll: And don't listen to your uncle or your cousin, right? And make sure that you're taking that belly class with whoever's 8 a.m. ballet class. It doesn't matter that if you're in a class of a bunch of 10-year-old girls, like don't judge yourself, it's gonna be worth it someday.

[48:40] John Riddle: I took a tap class with a bunch of 10-year-old girls.

[48:42] Joe Carroll: I took a ballet class with a bunch of 10-year-old girls, and I think my mom was like, yikes. They tap circles around me, and it was yeah, that but you gotta do it.

[48:46] John Riddle: You gotta do it, it's worth it.

[48:52] Joe Carroll: Also puts in your body, yeah.

[48:54] John Riddle: Yeah, it just helps everything else.

[48:56] Joe Carroll: It really does along the way. Can I tell my John Riddle story?

[48:59] John Riddle: Yeah, oh my god.

[49:00] Joe Carroll: We we've talked about the Muni St. Louis on the show a couple times, and it's this big summer stock theater with like 10,000 seats outdoors every summer. It's been around for a hundred and one years. It's the gold standard void, like every college kid in musical theater wants to work in the world. Wants to work there, and that's where like you know they used to talk about when when us Michigan kids would go down there, then we'd meet all the CCM kids, and we were like these two schools, and like I always thought of it as like a football rivalry, but it really wasn't that. It was like something else altogether. It was really more of a camaraderie because now we're all in the city together and it's like different.

But yeah, um this year I was a sophomore in college and these guys were juniors, and we that season, I think it was Paul C Paul Blake's last season, if I remember correctly, um, before the theater was taken over. And we all had to for the callback when you got called back after the first day, you all had to sing the same song. In front of each other, in front of each other in the theater. It was crazy.

[49:57] John Riddle: Yeah, but to me, like I grew up like in these callback, these like um hockey tryouts where like people were literally trying to kill each other. So I was like, oh, this is like a tryout, but like no one's gonna hurt me. This is great. Like I'm confident right now.

[50:10] Joe Carroll: I wish I had that.

[50:11] John Riddle: I wish I had that. This is a tryout, but no one's gonna hurt me. No one's gonna hurt me. And and you stepped center stage and you sang on the street where you live, and I was like, holy shit.

[50:23] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[50:24] John Riddle: This dude's voice is out of control.

[50:26] Joe Carroll: Well, that's so kind.

[50:28] John Riddle: Was that was that the year that you played Eric at the Muni?

[50:30] Joe Carroll: No, it isn't.

[50:33] John Riddle: After junior year, yeah.

[50:34] Joe Carroll: With Patty Miran.

[50:36] John Riddle: No, we didn't know that.

[50:37] Joe Carroll: No.

[50:38] John Riddle: Patty was aerial.

[50:40] Joe Carroll: That's insane.

[50:41] John Riddle: Yeah. And they cast this dumb little college kid. I I was terrified out of my boots. I had no idea what I was doing. I was probably god awful in it.

[50:50] Joe Carroll: You it it it was lore at Michigan. And through like the college, all of the BFA programs, we were like, John Riddle just got cast as Prince Eric in the Little Mermaid at the Muni. He's a junior. This kid is gonna be like you were you were legend before you even knew that you were a legend. Like we were talking about, we're like, who is this guy? And then like looking at videos of you singing on YouTube, and I was like, Oh, yeah, he's got a perfect voice.

[51:14] John Riddle: Oh, yeah.

[51:15] Joe Carroll: Oh, yeah.

[51:16] John Riddle: And I don't remember coming on this podcast more often. Do you know what's funny about that? Is that same summer? So I did The Little Mermaid, and then I had also auditioned at PCLO that summer, and I went and did I was in the ensemble after, so I did Little Mermaid, then went into Pittsburgh and was in the ensemble of Jesus Christ Superstar with Corey Cott, Ashley Park, um what? Stephanie Umoh, Will Blum, like all these people. It was the most legendary. We were all in the ensemble, and it was the most legendary group of people ever. We look at that group. Mike Campayno, like what? If I'm forgetting anyone, sorry, Mike Schwitter, like all these people. It was just this insane group of people, and we were all kids doing this.

[52:02] Dan Tracy: That's cool.

[52:03] John Riddle: Yeah, it was really cool.

[52:04] Joe Carroll: That's very cool.

[52:05] John Riddle: That's a real and I was crying at home because I was not in any of those groups. I was like, I am never gonna make it.

[52:11] Joe Carroll: Don't make it about you.

[52:12] John Riddle: That's a great John just gave it to me.

[52:13] Joe Carroll: No, but this is a reminder for all those kids who don't get those opportunities that you know there's other we've talked about that before. Like my non ek tour that I got to do because I didn't book the muni was one of the better things that happened to my career. So there's two sides of every coin.

[52:27] John Riddle: Absolutely.

[52:28] Joe Carroll: Um, but I love those stories about those like random ensembles of summer stock shows, and yeah, just know that those people next to you are are gonna end up probably being lifelong friends and and colleagues, and you just never know, yeah, like where you're gonna where anybody's gonna end up.

[52:41] John Riddle: Totally.

[52:42] Joe Carroll: Um, and if you don't know who Corey Cott and Ashley Park and all of these people are look at those resumes yeah because that's crazy yeah we should get them on this show too we should we should um that's why you also have to be nice to everybody's so many assholes in this business don't be an asshole don't be an asshole it takes so much more effort to be an asshole just be kind like I don't get it right yeah I sound like such a cynic on this show but no I'm just pointing out some things that I observe I don't I don't think you sound like a cynic I actually really love talking to you because I think that this is like like a really I'm feeling this vibe good yeah I think sometimes sometimes the the tendency in our business too is to come on and be like it's amazing we make musicals for a living but yeah there are a lot of things that that are a challenge and some people aren't helping to make those challenges any easier and so like shedding light on what's actually happening I think is valuable for people.

[53:34] John Riddle: So like I admire that.

[53:36] Joe Carroll: And I don't know I just see so much crazy behavior and now I'm gonna get on another tangent which is social media because I think it's partially ruining the theater I see so many people who it's like they're just in it to post on their story and it's like yeah but are you do you care about the play you're doing or the thing you're making right it's like it's not about how many followers you have or you know somebody sending you something for free to the theater it's like yeah where it what is the why do you do this?

[54:10] John Riddle: Yeah and I feel like social media is detracting from our community as as actors.

[54:19] Joe Carroll: I agree.

[54:21] John Riddle: And I think that's all I have to say about that.

[54:23] Joe Carroll: No, I agree. I think it's also there's positive things about it too, because look at the now the scope of we're able to reach so many people and just show like it's really cool that I can show somebody back like what it's like to be backstage at Phantom or something that I would have killed to see have that access when I was a kid.

[54:44] John Riddle: Totally.

[54:45] Joe Carroll: But also I think we have to be careful because it is a sacred space that we live in and work in. And there's kind of a secret that happens amongst the people that A work there and come see it. And so I think it's up to us to keep that secret and come to the theater so that you can experience that. If we just show it online all the time and everywhere, and I understand there's like we have to market, and that's part of marketing and everything. Access to people who can't afford 200 tickets. All of that is true, but I mean I'm totally with you that like yeah in Patty Lapone went on a big rant about this in the New York Times magazine last week, but it's article was so if you haven't read that article, go read that article because she says everything that I believe in.

[55:29] John Riddle: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[55:30] Joe Carroll: Yeah. I think I think like I'm totally not, I'm not a hater on social media uh like generally. I totally get where you're coming from and what you're saying, and and I'll just kind of pivot to like the thing about uh taking videos in the audience of the show and all of that stuff, right? And the and the sharing that's I think the thing that that is really people need to try to understand better is like the secret of the theater is the mystery of what it means for a thousand people to be in a space having a shared experience that is their own.

[56:15] John Riddle: Correct.

[56:15] Joe Carroll: That is what theater is. Theater isn't high belting, it isn't being hot, it isn't kicking your face or or you know, being better or more famous than anyone else. Like the reason that this works and people care about it is because all of these people are in the same place. Learning about what it means to be human.

[56:17] John Riddle: You know?

[56:39] Joe Carroll: I a hundred percent agree.

[56:41] John Riddle: Yeah, which is why I'm so like put your fucking phone down, yeah, and even in rehearsal, and even you know, backstage, and like it drives me up a wall that the crew members are playing video games in the wings.

[56:55] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[56:56] John Riddle: And like I get it, I get it. You're not there to tell the story, and you can still do your job and play video games. But there's something about like leave your phone in the dressing room. It's two and a half hours, like, come on, and go tell the story, right?

[57:09] Joe Carroll: Yeah, you know, and that should be true for the audience too. I'm guilty sometimes too, you know. I'm on my phone. I get it. I'm like watching football off stage. Like I get it.

[57:17] John Riddle: Yeah, yeah.

[57:18] Joe Carroll: But yeah, well, we're gonna do better.

[57:20] John Riddle: We can do better.

[57:21] Joe Carroll: And and I we've now talked to you for we've we've taken you away from your life for 45 minutes. And so we'll let you get back to your life. But I just want to you said something earlier about being nice to everybody, and I want to read the people, the text that you sent me when I got the job.

[57:37] John Riddle: So John texted me after I got the job to take over as Hans, and he said, Joe, this message is long overdue. I want to say how happy I am that you are taking over the bad boy shoes. You're perfect, and they're lucky to have you in the fam. Look forward to seeing you around, John Riddle. And I that's the kind of guy you are. You are a wonderful person, you're a wonderful actor. I've stolen every single trace that you make in the show. Absolutely nothing is original. And uh thank you for talking to us.

[58:06] John Riddle: Thanks. Thanks for having me. And go see him in Phantom of the Opera six nights a week uh until um March.

[58:14] Joe Carroll: Until March, yeah.

[58:15] John Riddle: Boom.

[58:16] Dan Tracy: Rock on.

[58:17] John Riddle: Cool.

[58:17] Joe Carroll: Thanks, guys.

[58:19] John Riddle: That was so nice, you guys.

[58:24] John Riddle: Love is an open door.

[58:29] John Riddle: Love is an open door with you.