This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Dan Tracy: Dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun.

[0:03] Joe Carroll: It is the final four.

[0:06] Dan Tracy: The final countdown.

[0:24] Joe Carroll: So an actor is saying his lines, and then out of nowhere, he just starts singing.

[0:34] Dan Tracy: Foxy Sivity.

[0:42] Joe Carroll: Don't cry for me.

[1:02] Dan Tracy: I think you know what's great? I um so I Dan, you know where I am, but I'll let the people know where I am. I'm in a hotel room in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

[1:11] Joe Carroll: You love to see it.

[1:14] Dan Tracy: I don't know if anybody on the show, anybody who's listened to the show knows that we went to the University of Michigan, but we Yeah, not sure if we've mentioned that.

[1:21] Joe Carroll: Like a hundred and fifty times.

[1:23] Dan Tracy: Um, but I'm in a hotel room, and I'm 99% sure that every single person on the hallway just heard us singing the final countdown.

[1:32] Joe Carroll: Yes.

[1:33] Dan Tracy: So I apologize to it. Listen, if I've learned anything about hotel living, it's that they should be so lucky.

[1:34] Joe Carroll: Ah, right?

[1:34] Dan Tracy: They should be so lucky as to get to hear these shower concerts that I'm putting on in this hotel room.

[1:46] Joe Carroll: You know what, they I I was making so much noise last night because uh well, first of all, let's tell the people what we're doing.

[1:52] Dan Tracy: So um Dan and I are helping the University of Michigan and a bunch of universities with their digital senior showcases for their acting programs and musical theater programs.

[2:04] Joe Carroll: Um we are filming stuff and building websites and doing a bunch of stuff to help these poor seniors find agents and find managers and and introduce them to the professional world.

[2:20] Dan Tracy: Um, and so I'm here to help, which seems insane. Basically, the task at hand right now is to make an 18 scene feature film in four days.

[2:31] Joe Carroll: Yep.

[2:32] Dan Tracy: Uh in Ann Arbor, and Joe is vaxxed and laxed and ready to go.

[2:37] Joe Carroll: What is laxed? Is that is that a lack is that like a I don't know.

[2:40] Dan Tracy: It was at the an SNL sketch last weekend with uh Maya Rudolph. They were like snaxxed and vaxxed and I didn't even know what they were talking about, but did you watch the I think I sent you the boomer boomers with the va uh boomers got vaxxed one uh SNL sketch?

[2:53] Joe Carroll: Oh my god.

[2:55] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[2:56] Joe Carroll: Um Chris at hand three whole times.

[3:03] Dan Tracy: Oh my god, it was so funny.

[3:06] Joe Carroll: Um anyway, yeah. The task at hand is to try and make a uh 16 scene feature film in one weekend, and Joe is there to help them.

[3:14] Dan Tracy: Um, and I am you know uh DPing remotely.

[3:19] Joe Carroll: Yep.

[3:19] Dan Tracy: So I'm Joe's there kind of making sure Joe's Joe's gripping in person and I'm DPing remotely, and we're kind of all three of us with one of the faculty members, Joe's friend Jeff uh Packard from Bandstand.

[3:32] Joe Carroll: We're all three of us kind of directing this thing and then and then putting it together for them.

[3:37] Dan Tracy: And so far it's been fun, but you know, last night we had three scenes filming at the same time, and Joe's like, you know, running backup phones for cameras and it's just been crazy.

[3:47] Joe Carroll: It's been crazy. But what's it what's it like there?

[3:49] Dan Tracy: Well what is what do college towns look like yeah in the midst of uh what could be wave three but is also or wave four.

[3:59] Joe Carroll: I can't keep track of it.

[4:00] Dan Tracy: Wave yeah but also like post vax kind of Michigan is also the highest rate of infection in the country right now. Did you know that?

[4:09] Joe Carroll: Uh which I assumed when they wanted us to go out there I was like I bet you any amount of money that there's gonna be a surge sure enough.

[4:19] Dan Tracy: Well you listen the highest in number infections is in Michigan great so how's it how's it going out there?

[4:24] Joe Carroll: Well uh well that's amazing. I actually didn't know that.

[4:28] Dan Tracy: Um but uh I was able to get the vaccine so I feel I feel safe um Jeff Packard my other faculty cohort has been vaccinated so we feel okay um but you know we got face shields and N95s and we're spending very little time in person and no time in person with with the students without masks on um but we're basically going into these locations around Ann Arbor um houses that we used to live in and party in and carrytown Ann Arbor and uh and film this this showcase.

[5:01] Joe Carroll: And so last night was super cool.

[5:03] Dan Tracy: I mean these students are incredible and uh a lot of this is they're doing themselves with with us consulting.

[5:09] Joe Carroll: So we we come in and we set up the shots and we set up the lighting and whatever but then they're on their own to um kind of ca you know set up the frame and capture it and send it to us, make sure it looks good anyway.

[5:21] Dan Tracy: So watching them work last night was so so cool.

[5:25] Joe Carroll: Um but this town is not the same.

[5:28] Dan Tracy: Like Ann Arbor is my favorite one of my favorite places on earth and like yesterday was a Thursday uh when I came in it was like Thursday three four o'clock and you should see students running around everywhere and there's just nobody here like I mean may if they are here they're in indoors and certainly not in classrooms and um so it's just like New York City in that way where like it's just not the same.

[5:52] Joe Carroll: College towns are not the same right now and that's very sad because I also haven't been back here in a long time.

[5:58] Dan Tracy: So um I came in and I was like sort of I was you know hoping to have it be sort of the same and yes the buildings are the same but like there's no there's no going there's no going to pizza house and and sitting at the bar at Ashley's and and like having I thought you said you were gonna be uh licking the bar stools at Ashley's what happened to that plan.

[6:20] Joe Carroll: I did that was that was just a tech oh you I oh I already did that no I did that last night you already did that yeah um yeah I just wanted to make sure you got that in yeah yeah yeah so on your trip um but last night I um I did feel like an absolute I mean you call me a boomer and uh I I appreciate I take on that nickname um and I wear it proudly with pride last night um you know so we're working all night and then at like 10 p.m I haven't eaten anything since like noon or whatever and so I walk over to Sava's which is the restaurant on the corner uh in the corner of like I don't know state and Liberty or whatever in downtown Ann Arbor and I I worked there for for three years in college and I walked in and there's this like 20-year old behind the bar, and I was like picking up my my to-go order, and I was like, oh man, this place looks great.

[7:09] Dan Tracy: I worked here for I went to college here and I worked here for three years in college, and this kid was like, okay.

[7:16] Joe Carroll: It's it's it's really interesting because that place was like that place was a hole in the wall, like diner with four stools in 2009.

[7:27] Dan Tracy: And when we came 2008-2009, when we went into school, we were the staff and we were the patrons.

[7:34] Joe Carroll: Like it was the musical theater program kept that place open, and then between then and when I left, it turned into an Ann Arbor staple, and we were just like, you know, another one of the crowd, and now it's like she has multiple restaurants and she's done really well, but it's really it was interesting to watch.

[7:51] Dan Tracy: I like that's how that's how I met Darren Criss.

[7:54] Joe Carroll: Darren Criss and I played music. Not a big deal.

[7:56] Dan Tracy: Like acoustic covers, not a big deal.

[7:58] Joe Carroll: Not a big deal.

[7:59] Dan Tracy: Voice guest host Darren Criss.

[8:03] Joe Carroll: Yeah, we need to um get him on here.

[8:05] Dan Tracy: We'll get him on here eventually.

[8:07] Joe Carroll: We'll get him on here eventually.

[8:08] Dan Tracy: You keep waving that flag in front of my face.

[8:10] Joe Carroll: I'm like, okay, I'm ready.

[8:11] Dan Tracy: Well, I keep waving it.

[8:12] Joe Carroll: Maybe yeah, we haven't actually waved it in a while.

[8:15] Dan Tracy: Um, so we'll maybe we'll get to the water.

[8:17] Joe Carroll: We got some big guests coming, so maybe that'll drain just some attention.

[8:21] Dan Tracy: We I cannot wait to talk about that.

[8:26] Joe Carroll: The per the person the person that we have coming on in a in a couple weeks, um, we got an email from from like one of the report, like the representative representative of one of probably one of the top three on my list.

[8:47] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[8:48] Joe Carroll: Yes, yes.

[8:49] Dan Tracy: Like, it's not Hugh Jackman that's coming.

[8:52] Joe Carroll: It's not him.

[8:52] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[8:53] Joe Carroll: But like, if I could have named another three in the Broadway space, yeah.

[8:58] Dan Tracy: This person's on that list, and we get an email from that person's representative asking if they can come on the show.

[9:06] Joe Carroll: We've made it.

[9:07] Dan Tracy: Yes.

[9:08] Joe Carroll: Oh, it's it was unbelievable.

[9:09] Dan Tracy: And so, and actually, this could be cool if people wanted to like like send us a DM on on Instagram to guess who it is, because we have talked about this person a lot.

[9:19] Joe Carroll: And we had actually talked about this person recently.

[9:23] Dan Tracy: And literally, right after we got done with an episode talking about this person, this person's representative reached out to us and we freaked out.

[9:33] Joe Carroll: So that's gonna be super cool.

[9:35] Dan Tracy: Anyway, Sava's Ann Arbor.

[9:38] Joe Carroll: It's it's not the same.

[9:39] Dan Tracy: It's amazing.

[9:40] Joe Carroll: I was gonna ask you another question about if you uh Cuomo announced today that um the live entertainment venues can reopen.

[9:53] Dan Tracy: Did you read that?

[9:55] Joe Carroll: No.

[9:56] Dan Tracy: Yeah. Live entertainment venues as of uh April 2nd can reopen at 33% capacity, up to 100 people indoors, just you know, a hundred people paying 440 dollars to see Hamilton.

[10:10] Joe Carroll: Um, just the standard, you know, ticket price.

[10:13] Dan Tracy: So a hundred a hundred people total or 33% or whatever comes first.

[10:18] Joe Carroll: Uh up to 100 people, up to 100 people.

[10:22] Dan Tracy: Up to 200 people outdoors.

[10:25] Joe Carroll: If all attendees present proof of negative test prior to entry.

[10:31] Dan Tracy: Capacity can increase to 150 people indoors and up to 500 people outdoors.

[10:39] Joe Carroll: Social distancing and face covering is required.

[10:43] Dan Tracy: Yep.

[10:44] Joe Carroll: Yep.

[10:45] Dan Tracy: What do we think?

[10:47] Joe Carroll: Let's go.

[10:48] Dan Tracy: I mean, I think if I think if we're vaxxed, I think if we're vaxxed, I'm laxed and ready to go.

[10:54] Joe Carroll: You know.

[10:55] Dan Tracy: I'm ready.

[10:56] Joe Carroll: Yes.

[10:57] Dan Tracy: Well, listen, I mean, the testing and the and masks and the distancing, that shit works.

[11:03] Joe Carroll: I'm I'm and you've worked on sets and stuff too, right?

[11:06] Dan Tracy: So, like, you know, you felt pretty safe on set last week.

[11:10] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[11:11] Dan Tracy: Extremely.

[11:12] Joe Carroll: Because you you know that everybody around you has the negative tests.

[11:15] Dan Tracy: So I I've done a couple TV shows.

[11:16] Joe Carroll: I was lucky enough to do two guest stars during the pandemic.

[11:19] Dan Tracy: Not a big deal.

[11:19] Joe Carroll: You get tested every other day.

[11:20] Dan Tracy: Not a big deal.

[11:21] Joe Carroll: The um you get everybody's getting tested every other day or every day.

[11:26] Dan Tracy: And so you know that when you show up on set, everybody's still masked, everybody's still wearing face shields and everything.

[11:31] Joe Carroll: But you know that when you show up that everybody's safe.

[11:35] Dan Tracy: This is the thing that like just makes me I'm so excited about this.

[11:38] Joe Carroll: I think it's let's let's do it.

[11:40] Dan Tracy: Let's go.

[11:40] Joe Carroll: They're doing it in Australia, they're doing it in Japan, they're doing it in South Korea.

[11:46] Dan Tracy: Let's go.

[11:47] Joe Carroll: I'm I'm ready.

[11:48] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[11:48] Joe Carroll: I'm I'm absolutely ready.

[11:50] Dan Tracy: I mean, this is the thing though.

[11:51] Joe Carroll: This is the problem, though.

[11:52] Dan Tracy: It's like the you know, Americans don't want to follow rules.

[11:55] Joe Carroll: It's just that individualism thing, uh rah-rah-ra.

[11:58] Dan Tracy: So it's like, no, if you want to go see some live entertainment, put on your freaking mask and go get tested.

[12:02] Joe Carroll: Right.

[12:03] Dan Tracy: And then you can do it every year.

[12:05] Joe Carroll: Yeah, you know.

[12:06] Dan Tracy: Yeah, get the vaccine.

[12:08] Joe Carroll: So, yeah.

[12:09] Dan Tracy: Well, I got my first little zonk yesterday, so I'm feeling pretty good.

[12:14] Joe Carroll: Very happy about that.

[12:15] Dan Tracy: Yeah, the first first first poke.

[12:17] Joe Carroll: First stab.

[12:18] Dan Tracy: First stab.

[12:20] Joe Carroll: Halfway to 5G, as you will.

[12:24] Dan Tracy: I was texting my in watch about that. We all like because they're all getting in in Ohio and and and my uh my sister in law said she said something about like, you know, like um I I got that microchip and I responded, uh I responded I well, and I said we all got that 5G blood now.

[12:42] Joe Carroll: Amazing.

[12:43] Dan Tracy: Um God, people are ridiculous.

[12:46] Dan Tracy: Um, but go get your vaccines. Let's let's let's go. Let's get it back. It's close. We can taste it. Yeah, so close, and I'm ready. You know, and the people are ready, and you're ready, and uh I'm ready to fight about musicals. Honestly, let's fight about it.

[13:01] Joe Carroll: Okay, so we don't have we got nobody else this week. It's just us yelling about um yelling about the final four.

[13:07] Dan Tracy: That's correct. Let's go, ladies and gentlemen. Let's get ready to rumble.

[13:25] Joe Carroll: Yo, poke it. Um, let's argue about some musicals. Thank you, everybody, for tuning in to this this March Madness ridiculousness. Here we go. Okay. So in the final four, in the final four, coming out of the uh the uh was this the contemporary was Rent was in the pop right?

[13:47] Dan Tracy: Let's start on the other side of the country. Let's start in the other region. Okay. We got Fiddler on the Roof up against West Story. Absolute iconic musicals.

[14:01] Joe Carroll: I icons, I it's kind of like this is bad. This is a bad sports reference. No, I'm not even gonna say it because it's so stupid. You're gonna make fun of me. But like if we're if well now I have to. Um uh almost then like a LeBron Steph Curry kind of matchup or something, something of the like Fiddler versus West Story.

[14:21] Dan Tracy: I mean, here's I I've said this week after week that Fiddler Fiddler is still did you know that Fiddler on the Roof was my uh the project that I had that was my my freshman year um musical theater project. We had that's at school we had to do these big 40-page papers about about a musical, and uh Fiddler on the Roof was mine, and I wish I remembered more of the like actual facts about it, but um I feel I still feel like we can't overlook the impact that it had on every show that we know. It's structurally perfect, it is it is it's been redone time after time after time. We talked about Hamilton, we've talked about the opening of In the Heights. I mean, any any musical that you can think of just think about tradition.

Everybody knows tradition, where you introduce all of the different characters, all of the different people, all of their conflict, and all of the things that are in juxtaposition to everybody else, and what they're trying to do for the next two and a half to three hours is spelled out for you in the first five minutes of the show. You know exactly what you're seeing. It is so dark and such a story of literal genocide, and it's hysterical and moving and all about change. I don't know. For me, that's my that's my fiddler. That's my like that's that's that's fiddler for me.

[15:56] Joe Carroll: Um fiddler on the roof opened in 1964, ran for 3,000 performances. Was the first show to ever do that. Run for 3,000 performances. That's correct. To surpass 3,000 performances. It held the title for the longest running Broadway musical for 10 years.

[16:14] Dan Tracy: Wow. So like and and you remember when we talked about West Story that West Side was a flop effectively. Ran for 732 performances by comparison. Right? West Story, the film, the winningest movie musical of all time. So what it's almost like, what are we talking about? Are we talking about West Side the W West Side State? I mean, I mean, because we're not talking about productions necessarily. We're talking about like show uh it's really this is a popularity contest, a cultural popularity contest about, you know, but this week I was on a kick of uh I watched a lot of the, you know, right up to the end for when we when we have to do the SAG award uh votes. I'm watching every movie that I should have been watching for the last eight months.

Same thing. When I was instead watching reality TV, I should have been watching these movies. I watched them all like in one weekend. Yep. And I was I loved um a lot of a lot of movies. Minari was amazing. Um The Five Bloods and uh then I watched uh Borat to kind of recover from from some of those other darker ones, and uh, and then I watched Trial of Chicago 7, um, which I didn't think I was gonna enjoy, but was I mean, why did I think that? It's fucking Aaron Sorkin's a genius, and like it's so good how he's able to take what should be journalism and make it dramatic. That thing that we've talked about a bunch that is that he talks about in his master class about what it means for something to be considered drama. He's so fucking good.

[17:52] Joe Carroll: But I got on a Sasha Baron Cohen kick, and Sasha Baron Cohen said that one of his biggest influences in his career is Fiddler on the Roof.

[18:02] Joe Carroll: Yeah. He said when I was in university, I was uh, you know, I fell in love with uh shows like Cyril de Bojrac and Fiddler on the Roof that have this like that's a pretty good impression. I don't know where that came from. Way better than I thought it was gonna be.

[18:03] Dan Tracy: Really?

[18:20] Dan Tracy: Why?

[18:21] Joe Carroll: Because he is like an extremely eloquent Brit who like does the crazy Borat, you know, Ally G stuff. But like you listen to him talk, and he is like one of the smartest men.

[18:30] Dan Tracy: Well, and he can do everything too.

[18:31] Joe Carroll: Yeah. This I was watching uh uh Hollywood reporter roundtable, and it was him uh God, who was in that category? It was him and um was this the comedy one? I think it was the comedy one, and it was him and like Don Cheadle and Jim Carrey and Adam Sandler, and just absolute icons.

[18:59] Dan Tracy: There's an older actor in there, I think too.

[19:00] Joe Carroll: Oh, Jim Carrey, Ted Danson.

[19:04] Dan Tracy: Henry Winkler, is it that one?

[19:05] Joe Carroll: Henry Winkler and Ted Danson. Yeah, and and they're all talking about comedy and it that it's it's a really great interview, and um he talks about uh this this genre that Fiddler on the Roof exists in, which is what he calls uh comedy tragedy. There's gotta be a better title for it. But it's like where the first half of the show is roll on the floor funny, yeah, and they hook you with how funny the character is, and then they rip your heart out. And he said that like that's what all of his movies are about. All of his movies are like, let's expose the comedy of this joke past being funny to being tragedy, right? And that's what all of these movies kind of follow that form. And he tells a lot of really cool stories about like how he was almost killed, how he was almost arrested by the Secret Service, all of these things he's done in his career to like expose the truths of racism in America and you know, the cultural, like you know, norms that we don't really pay attention to because we are used to them, and as an outsider, he's so able to like identify what's going on.

[20:20] Dan Tracy: Yeah, um, yeah but that was something that I that really stuck with me because you know, he identifies a musical as like a genre form, right? You know, up with like Cyreno de Bergerac. Right. Right. One of the classic plays of all time. And then and then you start thinking, like, well, what other musical can you point to that has that level of uh cultural relevance in in drama? I don't know.

[20:49] Joe Carroll: I mean, it doesn't I would argue that back to that. First of all, that that's all that's all in incredible. And I I don't I think that West Side people point to West Side for vastly different reasons.

[21:05] Dan Tracy: Exactly.

[21:06] Joe Carroll: Pushing, you know, uh dance as as the primary storyteller. Right. You know, pushing pushing drama forward. Um taking one of the most iconic plays of all time and musicalizing it in a way that that is is is basically it's like loosely based on Romeo and Juliet in a way. It's you know, I just I think I score I I mean Leonard Bernstein, it's like you know yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I just with Fiddler in particular, like it it's tricky then too, because for me the the film of Fiddler on the Roof, like I remember watching when I'm when I played Tevy in high school, as I've mentioned, um, watching uh watching the movie of Fiddler on the Roof, I was like, I don't, I don't get it. I don't get it. Doing it as a 16-year-old, what do 16 year olds know?

I mean, sorry, not to alienate any of our 16-year-old listeners, but it's like I was like, I don't totally get it. I did the play, I did the the report, freshman year of college, okay. And then I saw Danny Burstein do it, and I was like, oh, the I comp I I completely understand. I saw every musical that I've ever seen flash before my eyes in that way. Um that you said, Dan, where it's like they they rope you in with the comedy and then they hit you with just like they just break your heart for like the entire second act.

[22:32] Dan Tracy: Um then I think with with West Side, the choreography is is iconic, the music is iconic, the movie is fantastic. Um, but yeah, for me, I just I mean, I don't know. Hold on, before you pick.

[22:48] Joe Carroll: Okay, we should talk about the fiddler film too. Because this is another place where they they go at it side by side. Right? Fiddler on the Roof film comes out in 1971, starring Topel, and becomes the highest grossing film of that year, receives eight Academy Award nominations, and uh including Best Picture.

[23:13] Dan Tracy: And it wins only three.

[23:18] Joe Carroll: And it it also wins best score for the Arranger Conductor. Do you know who that might be?

[23:27] Dan Tracy: The Ranger Conductor of the Fiddler on the He is uh very famous for two classic classic uh film franchises in the last thirty years.

[23:44] Joe Carroll: Um what what year was it again?

[23:50] Dan Tracy: Because I think the person he won.

[23:52] Joe Carroll: I think the person that you're gonna guess is the correct answer. You're just not gonna think that he would that he's been working for fifty years, but he has.

[24:00] Dan Tracy: I I wanna say Paul Gemini.

[24:04] Joe Carroll: No.

[24:05] Dan Tracy: Okay.

[24:05] Joe Carroll: No, it's a film film composer.

[24:07] Dan Tracy: Okay.

[24:08] Joe Carroll: John Williams.

[24:10] Dan Tracy: No, no, it was not.

[24:11] Joe Carroll: Yes, it was.

[24:12] Dan Tracy: John Williams won an Oscar for the best score slash adaptation for a Ranger Conductor.

[24:18] Joe Carroll: Wow.

[24:19] Dan Tracy: Yep.

[24:20] Joe Carroll: That's cool.

[24:21] Dan Tracy: Mm-hmm.

[24:22] Joe Carroll: And West Side Story film was nominated for uh ten it actually uh I don't it was nominated for eleven Academy Awards and won ten years prior in nineteen sixty one.

[24:32] Dan Tracy: And it's still the winningest uh uh of all time.

[24:36] Joe Carroll: And so, you know, you gotta you gotta think that that's gotta have something to play here. We got the results from the fans, and the fans have decided West Story.

[24:40] Dan Tracy: West Story.

[24:48] Joe Carroll: I I think that might have to be.

[24:55] Dan Tracy: Um now I will say based on I was gonna pick Fiddler based on cultural, historical and musical theater significance.

[25:06] Joe Carroll: Yeah, I enjoy West Side's story more.

[25:10] Dan Tracy: Like I I enjoy this the show.

[25:13] Joe Carroll: I I like sitting there watching it. I remember watching Karen Olivo and in that revival and yeah, and the most recent revival, which I have, you know, I know a lot of people have issues with.

[25:38] Dan Tracy: Did you read this article? Where it's just yeah, that just misses the whole point. Because originally what they wanted to make the show about was black versus white, and the producers were scared, so they changed it.

[25:49] Joe Carroll: Yeah, and made a Puerto Rican versus white, and now it's just black and brown people reverse black and brown people.

[25:57] Dan Tracy: Right. And like just now it's just a representation of like gang culture in America, and it's not what it's supposed to be.

[26:03] Joe Carroll: Exactly.

[26:04] Dan Tracy: And just keeping that narrative, yeah. It was just like so that that's my biggest issue with the most current revival. But um, and I didn't come up, that was not an original thought. Somebody wrote that, I read that, and I was like, oh my god, of course.

[26:16] Joe Carroll: Yeah, you know, that is that's that's that's so freaking true.

[26:20] Dan Tracy: But but also that that revival, I mean, again, we see that like there is there's there the revivals that that are happening also lead people to to pick the shows that that they're gonna pick. I mean, a lot of people that's a super young cast. I mean, that was one of the things that was cool about it. I I guess, you know, it's just extremely young, it's extremely it is extremely diverse, but it just I think that that the storytelling just just misses misses the mark, you know.

[26:45] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[26:45] Dan Tracy: I I I g I it it just it yeah, you you know, you make choices like we were talking I was talking about this on uh I was a guest on Carson's podcast this week, and we talked about movie musicals, which is where a lot of this uh Academy Awards stuff comes in. He was asking me if I knew about you know what's the winningest movie musicals. We ended up talking about both of these shows. And I talked about that thing that Mark Platt says, where if you're gonna redramatize something, take it from screen and put it on stage, or take something from book and put it on stage or on screen, or vice versa, back and forth, which they do all the time.

[27:22] Joe Carroll: Right.

[27:22] Dan Tracy: You need to make choices that change our perception of the piece based on the medium, based on the medium and based on the time.

[27:31] Joe Carroll: Right.

[27:32] Dan Tracy: So you can't just turn Hamilton into the Hamilton film. You need to redramatize it to make the story different. You know, you can't just that was what he was saying about Wicked. Everybody was like, when are you gonna make the Wicked movie? And he's like, look, you have to take the stage musical and elevate it. You can't just recreate it. That's why so many uh movie musicals on stage have not worked.

[28:00] Joe Carroll: Right.

[28:00] Dan Tracy: You can't just take Pretty Woman and put it on stage. You need to remind us why it has to be on stage.

[28:07] Joe Carroll: Right.

[28:07] Dan Tracy: And then that new medium can can hold its own as opposed to being something that is just kind of an homage to the other form. And that was why I remember, and I was young. I mean, I was young when I saw the Fiddler movie, but it Fiddler is so funny. And the movie, there is not funny. There's no there's no audience response. I mean, Tevye is speaking to these people, to you, and making you a part of his journey and making you laugh.

[28:37] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[28:37] Dan Tracy: And like, you know, Topol, Topal. Do you know what that you know what that joke is from? That's from not that's from Notting Hill. That's you know, my favorite rom com. So Topol, Topal. Anyway.

[28:48] Joe Carroll: We're moving right along past that.

[28:49] Dan Tracy: There that like you we miss so much of the comedy of it, and then you see it on stage, and it's just so freaking funny.

[28:56] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[28:56] Dan Tracy: So I think.

[28:57] Joe Carroll: Yeah, it changes because like when you it's the same thing with watching comedy. If you were to watch a stand-up special that didn't have audience laugh, right, it would be so awkward.

[29:08] Dan Tracy: 100%.

[29:09] Joe Carroll: 100%.

[29:11] Dan Tracy: You know, and Tevye does all the milk cow stuff and the whole, like, you know, the whole scene with with Laser Wolf, and he's like, you know, and looking at the audience and the audience, he just Danny Burstein just like shoots a look to the audience, and and and and two thousand people at the Broadway theater start cracking up.

[29:28] Joe Carroll: Right.

[29:28] Dan Tracy: How how that experience is that's why it's meant to be seen. You know, it's like it's like plays, plays are not meant to be read. Plays are meant to be heard, plays are meant to be seen.

[29:39] Joe Carroll: Right.

[29:40] Dan Tracy: Um, and so that's one of those, anyway. That's a whole nother tangent. It's not literature, you know, right.

[29:44] Joe Carroll: It's not literature.

[29:45] Dan Tracy: So all right. So West Side Story, the fancy.

[29:47] Joe Carroll: The West Side Story in the final.

[29:49] Dan Tracy: Yeah. In the final. On the other side of the world, Hamilton versus Rent.

[29:56] Joe Carroll: All right, Hamilton.

[29:58] Dan Tracy: Um.

[30:00] Joe Carroll: So I guess.

[30:04] Dan Tracy: Oh, man. It's just well, first of all, we gotta talk about, we gotta talk about the totals.

[30:05] Joe Carroll: We gotta talk about like No, no, no, that's last.

[30:11] Dan Tracy: No, no, no.

[30:11] Joe Carroll: No, no, no.

[30:12] Dan Tracy: No, but just how close it was.

[30:14] Joe Carroll: Just like how unbelievably close this.

[30:19] Dan Tracy: Let's just say prep yourself for a buzzer beater.

[30:22] Joe Carroll: Yes.

[30:23] Dan Tracy: A quite, quite literal buzzer beater.

[30:26] Joe Carroll: That's right.

[30:27] Dan Tracy: Um so Dan, what why don't you go first? What do you think? What is it? What was your thought? What was your initial initial feeling about this matchup?

[30:34] Joe Carroll: Well, I want to talk a little bit about just like the history here while we kind of compare these two things together, right?

[30:40] Dan Tracy: Mm-hmm.

[30:40] Joe Carroll: So we got Hamilton wins like, you know, everything it can possibly win.

[30:47] Dan Tracy: Is it 11? How many did it win?

[30:49] Joe Carroll: 11 trophies with uh six more nominations.

[30:53] Dan Tracy: 16 nominations in 15 categories. Insane.

[30:57] Joe Carroll: Um, you know, you got David Diggs against Jonathan Groff and Chris Jackson in the same category.

[31:03] Dan Tracy: David Diggs wins, you know?

[31:04] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[31:05] Dan Tracy: Um, just crazy. Uh David Korns would did not win.

[31:09] Joe Carroll: Um, and Lynn Manuel obviously lost to Leslie Odom Jr. in the same category.

[31:15] Dan Tracy: So, like, just absolute craziness. They win all of the other awards um uh that year. The the Drama League and you know, Lucille Tell and all those other awards that we pay attention to, obviously.

[31:29] Joe Carroll: Hamilton's still running with no end in sight.

[31:31] Dan Tracy: Um, Rent won four Tonys.

[31:36] Joe Carroll: Um, best musical, best book, best score, and best performance by a featured actress for uh Wilson, Germaine, uh Heredia who played Angel.

[31:49] Dan Tracy: Rent runs for I saw the closing cast with Adam Pascal and Adam Rat and Anthony Rapp. Whoa.

[31:56] Joe Carroll: When they came back at the very end.

[31:58] Dan Tracy: It ran until 2008. Five thousand five thousand performances.

[32:05] Joe Carroll: And the Broadway production grossed 280 million dollars.

[32:09] Dan Tracy: Well, Hamilton made 280 million dollars in the first year.

[32:12] Joe Carroll: So that's that'll show you how much that'll show you how much Broadway has changed.

[32:16] Dan Tracy: Isn't that crazy? Hashtag inflation.

[32:18] Joe Carroll: Um no, hashtag like big money Broadway.

[32:22] Dan Tracy: Like we are in the studio equivalent of Broadway.

[32:26] Joe Carroll: Right.

[32:26] Dan Tracy: That is what that is the the time the time we live in now. And you know, Rent was the little show that could start at the New York Theater Workshop in '93, and then it played there off Broadway, and and uh Jonathan Larson died the night before the off Broadway premiere.

[32:47] Joe Carroll: So they'd had this like workshop production.

[32:50] Dan Tracy: They'd uh, you know, Carson said it was the show that wasn't noted, which is sort of true. But like think of the changes that the changes that happen between uh traditionally between an off-Broadway transfer to Broadway that didn't really happen with Hamilton.

[33:07] Joe Carroll: There weren't a lot of big major reworks that happened.

[33:10] Dan Tracy: Right.

[33:11] Joe Carroll: But there could have been.

[33:13] Dan Tracy: There could have been and this the like Rent could have had those opportunities to change and and to move, and obviously, Rent uh becomes uh paves the way for what we've seen in Broadway for the next 20 years.

[33:29] Joe Carroll: Um up until today, you know, so many of these shows don't exist without Rent next to normal Spring Awakening.

[33:36] Dan Tracy: Um, some of the other shows we've spoken about in this category.

[33:39] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[33:40] Dan Tracy: Up against Hamilton, which has become, you know, a worldwide cultural phenomenon, and has incorporated the probably arguably the first time that hip hop has been successfully incorporated into a musical uh and done as well as it did.

[33:55] Joe Carroll: Not the first, but definitely one of the more successful times, you know, was a hit from the very beginning, and you know, I've we've been paying attention to it since Lynn performed at the White House in 2006 or whatever it was.

[34:11] Dan Tracy: Um shows are still running.

[34:14] Joe Carroll: It's got three tours and a sit-down in LA coming out of the pandemic, starring Taylor Jones, friend of the pod, and there's just a lot, you know.

[34:23] Dan Tracy: I think what's what's cool about this matchup is the sort of iconic um nature of both of these shows.

[34:34] Joe Carroll: Like you know, Rent was the Hamilton of its era, you know, of the of the 90s, the sort of like late 90s, mid mid to late 90s, and then and obviously through through the early 2000s, and just like the it that was that was a revolution too.

[34:51] Dan Tracy: I mean, people I mean, I remember seeing the non-equity tour in Grand Rapids in like 2000 2004, 2005.

[35:02] Joe Carroll: And this was one of these massive, like the Devos performance hall in Grand Rapids holds like 3,000 people.

[35:08] Dan Tracy: Standing room only.

[35:10] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[35:10] Dan Tracy: People screw like it was the coolest thing.

[35:13] Joe Carroll: One of the coolest things I've ever seen in person because uh sitting next to 3,000 people screaming.

[35:18] Dan Tracy: Like it is still it's still iconic.

[35:22] Joe Carroll: It's still it changed the face of musical theater.

[35:25] Dan Tracy: It made you know, it made tough topics.

[35:28] Joe Carroll: I mean, it's a it's a show about the heroin addicts and AIDS and all I mean, like it's people at that, like we were still afraid to talk about that stuff at that time.

[35:39] Dan Tracy: Yes, we don't know that, like our generation doesn't realize that up until the mid-2000s, we didn't face what happened in the 80s and and how many people were unnecessarily lost because the government turned their turned their head and just kind of let this happen, you know, and and if that were to happen today, people would have something to say, and the internet is a place where that would not go unrecognized.

[36:10] Joe Carroll: Um, and Rent was kind of talking uh fight to power, you know.

[36:14] Dan Tracy: Yeah, and also the I I'm just thinking of this, like I don't know if this is right, but I'll say it anyway. That it's like it's they made a musical, it's like making a musical about the coronavirus right after the coronavirus right at like as the peak starts to go down, like on the on the backside of the curve, like people were still dying from AIDS.

[36:35] Joe Carroll: Yeah, height of the AIDS uh the AIDS pandemic was epidemic was was was slightly the bell curve was slightly going down, but everybody in New York City knew somebody who had died from AIDS, an entire generation of artists was was wiped out, and then this show comes out.

[36:53] Dan Tracy: Right.

[36:53] Joe Carroll: So it's like the fact that because what we we want the producers after 9-11, like the the reason the producers were so successful was because it came because of people wanting to go to the the theater and escape and laugh and you know that this show was as iconic and as as celebrated as it was, given the fact that every you know, you know what I mean?

[37:15] Dan Tracy: Like that, yeah, that is just like it's it spoke, you know, it gave a heart and a face to this moment that went unnoticed by too many people.

[37:28] Joe Carroll: Right, right.

[37:28] Dan Tracy: It was because it was taboo.

[37:30] Joe Carroll: Yeah, it was just the gay community, it was just New York, blah blah blah blah blah.

[37:34] Dan Tracy: If the coronavirus had actually only affected, you know, Asian people, right, and we just let it happen.

[37:41] Joe Carroll: Right, right.

[37:42] Dan Tracy: That that's what ha that's what was going on.

[37:44] Joe Carroll: And no one was afraid, no one was willing to face that and kind of humanize it and talk about it.

[37:49] Dan Tracy: And Jonathan Larson was like, this is this is my opportunity, and you know, we I would have loved to see all of the other things that he would have done, and and we lost him too soon.

[37:58] Joe Carroll: Um, somebody in the in the DMs uh said that I love Hamilton and I love everything that Hamilton has done, but Rent gave a voice to theater people before that during a time when that wasn't cool anymore at all.

[38:16] Dan Tracy: It gave us theater kids a reason to feel cool and to sing along. And while I hear that, I think that Hamilton gives a voice to the every person, right? That makes Broadway cool. And that's why I think Hamilton, like, you know, there are these shows that have really spoken to theater kids in the last few years that have fallen to the wayside. And I still think that those shows are amazing works that deserve to be celebrated. But this idea that like I really hang my hat on the future of Broadway needing to look more like Hamilton than it does Rent.

[39:00] Joe Carroll: Totally. And that's kind of neither here nor there.

[39:04] Dan Tracy: Yeah, it's not, I wouldn't even say more like, I think both of those shows are incredibly representative.

[39:09] Joe Carroll: You're right.

[39:09] Dan Tracy: But it is to say that like Broadway should look more like Hamilton and less like Bye Bye Birdie or some shit, you know? I mean, you know, like which it obviously is, but you know, we have a pretty white revival of Music Man coming up.

[39:24] Joe Carroll: Correct, correct.

[39:26] Dan Tracy: I think it's also interesting to just mention Jeffrey Seller and mention the downtown theater, like New York Theater Workshop produced Rent, the Public produced Hamilton, which is different. I mean, everybody knew Hamilton was gonna be huge, like the, yeah, and it's more like the Public Theater is making the, and Rent is the little engine that could, and Hamilton was like, every, it was like a Marvel movie, basically.

[39:54] Joe Carroll: Yeah, everybody, I remember hearing things when that show came out, like everybody wanted to invest in it, you know? Like because I'm, I'm, I'm I sort of know some of these co-producers in New York now because of The Woodsman, and so they were like trying to get their money into Hamilton. Everybody wanted to get their money into Hamilton. And there was a few people who were like, you know, close friends with somebody who got to throw their $25,000 into Hamilton. And you know, but Hamilton didn't need it, you know? It was like one of those, like they got to invest, and now they're just like, you know, set for life.

[40:27] Dan Tracy: But right, Jeffrey Seller, the exact, the um executive producer of Rent, also the executive producer of Hamilton, among other things. He is a U of M grad, which is kind of cool. But um, yeah, I mean, this is the thing. I didn't, we're getting down to the end, and I didn't want Hamilton to get to this point. I thought I was pretty, I don't want to say I'm anti-Hamilton because I'm certainly not, but it's just, it was an amaz, it's an amazing show. And uh, like you said, Dan, I think even if it was the fact that it's given a voice and a face and a popularity to this art form for people who don't see themselves represented in The Music Man, I think is just something that we can't overlook.

[41:17] Joe Carroll: Yeah, right. It's like that thing that came out, the study that came out that said that there's billions of dollars sitting on the table because black and brown people are not represented enough in Hollywood.

[41:29] Dan Tracy: Right.

[41:29] Joe Carroll: That if we were to incorporate those stories and voices into it more, it would increase the overall economic impact of stories in Hollywood. The same thing is definitely, definitely true as proven by Hamilton. If we incorporate more voices and stories onto the stage, you know, and the other one that needs to be discussed is Asian voices. There's a huge underrepresentation of Asian voices on screen and on stage. If you look at the representation of like Asian men, it's scary.

[42:01] Dan Tracy: Right.

[42:01] Joe Carroll: Um, it's not acceptable. So there's a lot of work still to be done, and I think that there are obviously I've already discussed all of the things I have, the issues that there are with Hamilton as like, you know, it's not necessarily giving back to the communities that it's representing.

[42:16] Dan Tracy: Right.

[42:16] Joe Carroll: You know, it's right, whose pockets is this is it actually filling? There is an issue there for sure. There's a huge issue in Broadway in general, the fact that four families run the whole business. It's like the most mafia-centric thing that there could be. We, it looks just like it did when in the golden age of studios in Hollywood. It's four, you know, four studios that decide everything that happens and who gets to be on stage and why and for how long, kicks people out when they choose and makes deals with the producers that they want to. It's a huge problem.

[42:47] Dan Tracy: But I think Hamilton is at least pushing us in the direction of having these conversations among larger groups of people who actually buy tickets.

[42:55] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[42:56] Dan Tracy: Because as long as the largest ticket buyers are white women 65 plus, which is a, it's right now it's like 49% of ticket sales are white women over 65. As long as that's true, nothing's gonna change.

[43:12] Joe Carroll: Right.

[43:12] Dan Tracy: Right.

[43:13] Joe Carroll: Right.

[43:13] Dan Tracy: So we need to chicken or the egg, figure out what the hell we have to do and flip the script a little bit. So enough of us pontificating about, I said we were gonna keep this tight 46 minutes.

[43:26] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[43:27] Dan Tracy: Well, listen, I mean, this is the thing that now we get to, so we're in the final, the final final.

[43:32] Joe Carroll: We've pontificated enough.

[43:34] Dan Tracy: Hamilton versus Rent.

[43:36] Joe Carroll: Hamilton versus Rent.

[43:37] Dan Tracy: Just doing this math in my head just really fast.

[43:39] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[43:40] Dan Tracy: With seven hundred and eighty-three total votes.

[43:45] Joe Carroll: Come on, we're absolutely unbelievable.

[43:47] Dan Tracy: 783 total votes. I can't believe you all who listen to this show.

[43:53] Joe Carroll: That's not true. Follow us on Instagram. It's 700, what was it? 783?

[43:58] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[43:58] Joe Carroll: 783 people who not only voted, but also listened to the show.

[44:03] Dan Tracy: Right. Like, this is, it's so, that's so freaking cool. I'm just like, I remember when we had 12 listeners.

[44:11] Joe Carroll: Yes, exactly.

[44:12] Dan Tracy: You know? And it was just, it was you and me on multiple devices and our moms on multiple devices. That's how this started.

[44:18] Joe Carroll: Yes. And your sister.

[44:19] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[44:20] Joe Carroll: And my sister's sisters listen to this.

[44:24] Dan Tracy: Yeah, she listened to the first episode.

[44:26] Joe Carroll: Okay, sorry.

[44:28] Dan Tracy: Right. 783 votes in an absolute nail biter by one point.

[44:35] Joe Carroll: Literally.

[44:36] Dan Tracy: One vote. 392. Rent over Hamilton, 392 to 391.

[44:43] Joe Carroll: Wow.

[44:45] Dan Tracy: 392 to 391, Rent over Hamilton. And that to me, it speaks volumes just based on like what our, what the, you know, the generation that listens to us and votes on Instagram, what they, how they view Rent. They've never seen Rent on stage, probably. You know, like maybe there was a non-equity tour that went out a couple years ago, but like they know it based on YouTube, based on old cast recordings, based on the, you know, the history. Like there's no Disney Plus version of Rent.

[45:22] Joe Carroll: There's a mediocre movie.

[45:25] Dan Tracy: Well, there's a, you can find like the bootlegs of like the Will Chase archival.

[45:30] Joe Carroll: That's a good one.

[45:31] Dan Tracy: Yeah. Um, there's some pretty good archivals, and there's the movie, and then there's Rent Live, Joe. You cannot forget Rent Live, Joe.

[45:42] Joe Carroll: I mean, this is true.

[45:44] Dan Tracy: Anyway.

[45:45] Joe Carroll: Yeah, man.

[45:46] Dan Tracy: I just think this is crazy. So it's Rent.

[45:48] Joe Carroll: It's crazy.

[45:49] Dan Tracy: Yep. Versus West Side Story.

[45:56] Joe Carroll: I've said everything that I can say about both of these shows.

[46:00] Dan Tracy: And I think it's gotta be Rent for me. For my life, for my, for musical theater, for the reason that I'm, I got into this nonsense in the first place.

[46:12] Joe Carroll: Um, I wore out that cast album in my 1998 Black Jeep Cherokee, blasting it, coming rolling into the high school, blasting Rent, and then turning it down very, you know, quickly because I was like, wait, this is uncool to do in West Michigan.

[46:31] Dan Tracy: Um, yeah, man. I just, two of the greatest love stories ever told.

[46:37] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[46:38] Dan Tracy: I don't think we should, I don't think we should decide.

[46:42] Joe Carroll: You know what? I like to do that. I think we should let the people vote.

[46:45] Dan Tracy: Oh, let the people, okay, cool.

[46:46] Joe Carroll: Cool. I like that.

[46:50] Dan Tracy: And then we just, we'll drop it in next week.

[46:54] Joe Carroll: Yeah, I think we can just announce it. We can announce it like late next week, you know, get your votes in.

[47:01] Dan Tracy: Love it. The greatest musical of all time, 2021 edition. And we'll see you next year for another greatest musical of all time.

[47:11] Joe Carroll: And we choose the teams that are playing, we choose the shows.

[47:15] Dan Tracy: Yes, exactly. Oh, I think this is great. Holy cow, this has been really fun.

[47:21] Joe Carroll: This has been a really fun couple weeks.

[47:22] Dan Tracy: I agree. It's been a really fun couple weeks. I think for me, um, it's hard. For me, it's hard because they're just so different.

[47:28] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[47:32] Dan Tracy: Um, we'd never seen danger and violence on the stage the way that we did in West Story.

[47:39] Joe Carroll: We'd never seen love in all different shapes and sizes and colors of love on stage like we did in Rent.

[47:49] Dan Tracy: Yeah. Um, and tragedy as well. West Story like made me feel like I could dance. Like, you know, guys, like guys up there dancing like, you know, masculine, angry.

[48:04] Joe Carroll: Uh, just, I, I so, and again, just an absolutely iconic score. Some of the greatest songs ever written.

[48:11] Dan Tracy: Yep.

[48:17] Joe Carroll: Really early Stephen Sondheim.

[48:20] Dan Tracy: Yep.

[48:21] Joe Carroll: Stephen Sondheim on the words.

[48:22] Dan Tracy: Right.

[48:23] Joe Carroll: Like just on the words. We forget. I mean, I don't forget. You know, I don't forget five times a week when I'm singing "Something's Coming."

[48:33] Dan Tracy: I don't forget that Stephen Sondheim wrote those words. This is a tough one.

[48:36] Joe Carroll: Good luck.

[48:37] Dan Tracy: Yeah, good luck.

[48:38] Joe Carroll: I know what they're gonna choose, but you know, you know, but I just love this.

[48:45] Dan Tracy: I love it. Maybe we'll just hit them with some facts. We'll hit them with some history. We'll hit them with some statistics and some stuff about where they're at and, and uh, it's really fun.

[48:57] Joe Carroll: It's really fun to be talking about this from Ann Arbor, but it's also very sad because Michigan lost in the Elite Eight.

[49:05] Dan Tracy: But this is where the Elite Eight.

[49:07] Joe Carroll: What is that?

[49:09] Dan Tracy: Shut up.

[49:12] Joe Carroll: Oh, you're talking about sports ball.

[49:14] Dan Tracy: I'm talking about sports ball.

[49:15] Joe Carroll: So Michigan actually lost.

[49:17] Dan Tracy: But this is the best. That was a sad game.

[49:19] Joe Carroll: That was a sad game by one basket.

[49:21] Dan Tracy: Just like Hamilton.

[49:23] Joe Carroll: Oh look what he did.

[49:26] Dan Tracy: Yeah. Love it. Love it.

[49:28] Joe Carroll: Um, thanks for listening, guys who like musicals. We got a lot of really fun guests on the horizon.

[49:36] Dan Tracy: And um, you know, a lot of big things, a lot of big things in store. Holy shit, thank you for voting. This has been so, the outreach, the participation, the engagement on this, this, the last few weeks has been super inspiring. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you for doing it.

[49:55] Joe Carroll: Sweet. We'll see you next week.

[49:58] Dan Tracy: Joseph, I love you.

[49:59] Joe Carroll: I love you.

[50:00] Dan Tracy: I love you. Don't mess it up for us this weekend, okay? Make sure you plug the microphones in properly.

[50:08] Joe Carroll: I'm not doing that.

[50:11] Dan Tracy: Thank you for listening to Guys Who Like Musicals. We are now part of the Broadway Podcast Network.

[50:17] Joe Carroll: Woo!

[50:18] Dan Tracy: We are hosted by Dan Tracy.

[50:20] Joe Carroll: That's you.

[50:20] Dan Tracy: And Joe Carroll.

[50:21] Joe Carroll: That's me.

[50:22] Dan Tracy: We're produced by Ryan Kincaid, and Matthew Mucha is the social content manager. You can find us on Instagram at Guys Who Like Musicals, on Twitter at Musical Guys, or the old fashioned way at www.guyswholikemusicals.com. If you'd like a chance to be featured on the Ask the Guys segment of our show, please call 203-900-7990 and leave a message with your question. As always, thanks for listening.