This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Dan Tracy: Not even they wore I have not seen I have not seen these guys ever in my life.

[0:06] Joe Carroll: Dan just got off the bottom.

[0:08] Dan Tracy: We just lost in the bottom of the ninth inning to Aladdin.

[0:14] Joe Carroll: We just lost in the He's got a turn he's turning, he's turning his mic down to the street.

[0:25] Dan Tracy: Because they're probably professional baseball players.

[0:27] Joe Carroll: No, they definitely weren't.

[0:28] Dan Tracy: I mean, these guys were like, they looked like you know, Johnny on the block. They were like firefighters or something, but they were like totally recruits from some other league or something.

[0:35] Joe Carroll: They're definitely not actors.

[0:36] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[0:37] Joe Carroll: But, you know, of course it was like run for run for run for run for run.

[0:42] Dan Tracy: We play extra innings and we lost.

[0:46] Joe Carroll: I'm so mad.

[0:48] Dan Tracy: I couldn't hit.

[0:49] Joe Carroll: I'm sorry, I'm laughing at you.

[0:51] Dan Tracy: It's so hot out.

[0:52] Joe Carroll: Yeah, it's a thousand degrees.

[0:55] Dan Tracy: Oh, welcome to guys who like musicals.

[0:58] Joe Carroll: What's up, world? Welcome to guys who like musicals.

[1:00] Dan Tracy: I'm Dan Tracy, current cast member of Waitress the Musical on Broadway.

[1:03] Joe Carroll: I'm Joe Carroll. I'm in Frozen on Broadway.

[1:05] Dan Tracy: And this week we're talking to Shoshana Bean.

[1:08] Joe Carroll: Broadway's Shoshana Bean.

[1:09] Dan Tracy: Broadway's Shoshana Bean, who volunteered herself as a regular on our show.

[1:14] Joe Carroll: So like and subscribe and send us DMs if you have any more questions, because she'll be back on soon.

[1:14] Dan Tracy: She'll be back.

[1:20] Joe Carroll: We're talking about her. Uh and that's basically it. We're gonna do some stuff we like uh this week, but her interview's so good, we're just gonna get right to it.

[1:26] Dan Tracy: Let's go.

[1:27] Joe Carroll: So an actor is saying his lines, and then out of nowhere, he just starts singing.

[1:34] Dan Tracy: Fox 67.

[1:42] Joe Carroll: Don't cry for me.

[1:48] Dan Tracy: Joe, you did a really good job.

[1:49] Joe Carroll: Thanks, Dan. I was really nervous.

[1:50] Dan Tracy: We did the interview when Joe was in Italy still.

[1:54] Joe Carroll: And um, yeah.

[1:56] Dan Tracy: Well, the thing that was nice about it is that like we could just flow.

[1:59] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[2:00] Dan Tracy: Well, you guys, it's clear that you are friends. And like, you know, you obviously liked working together, and then you just have to put a microphone in front of her.

[2:07] Joe Carroll: She's decently talented.

[2:09] Dan Tracy: She is so talented. We were before we started recording, we were trying to think of like the first moment that we discovered Shoshana Bean.

[2:15] Joe Carroll: And I think it was one of these YouTube black holes in college where like she it was like bootlegs of her in Wicked from the early 2000s.

[2:25] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[2:26] Joe Carroll: And she was one of the first people to option up all sorts of stuff and like add her own flavor and riffs and character to these songs that you had only really heard uh Idina Menzel and Eden Espinoza sing.

[2:39] Dan Tracy: Right one more time.

[2:40] Joe Carroll: Eden Espinoza sing.

[2:41] Dan Tracy: Right.

[2:42] Joe Carroll: Uh and like she's so unique and she's so fantastic.

[2:46] Dan Tracy: Yeah, and and you know, there's a lot of things to point out about this interview that are really cool, but the one thing that we didn't she she mentions this um story where she says, you know, you guys thought it was crazy that I was flying to concerts and then coming back and doing the show.

[3:04] Joe Carroll: This woman works harder than anyone else in this business. I'll tell you right now.

[3:09] Dan Tracy: Yep.

[3:10] Joe Carroll: Challenge me on it.

[3:11] Dan Tracy: There sure that there are probably some people who work pretty hard.

[3:14] Joe Carroll: Okay, everybody works hard. She works crazy.

[3:15] Dan Tracy: As far as like she's playing this this role, which is an incredibly dynamic role, and she's singing it in a way that's not trying to conserve her voice.

[3:24] Joe Carroll: She's pouring her soul on the stage because she says she has no other option. Meanwhile, we have a day off on a Monday. She's flying after the show Sunday night to do a concert Sunday night in another place, then a concert on Monday in another place, then an event on Tuesday morning in New York, and then she's coming to do the show, and we're like, How are you doing? Did you get a day off? No, I had two concerts.

[3:43] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[3:44] Joe Carroll: Concerts Thursday nights, concerts, like press all day. Then I'm making I was doing a bunch of YouTube videos for her, so she's doing all of that, rehearsing all day for those kinds of things, and just I mean, just such a hard worker, and it's just so she's like taken this role as like um uh kind of like a thought leader and a caretaker, and she's trying to like take people in the maternal.

[4:07] Dan Tracy: Which is so awesome.

[4:08] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[4:08] Dan Tracy: What were your favorite parts?

[4:09] Joe Carroll: Well, I just uh we're gonna get to the interview and just let her do her thing. But I had so many favorite parts. One, she talks about education, she talks about her time at CCM, which I think is so uh helpful for anybody who's applying to musical theater programs. And she talks about how the musical theater education system is changing, uh, which is really interesting. Um, how certain people should go to school and should certain people might not need to go to school. I know for me, I really needed to go to school. Like if I had shown up in New York City at 18, I would have been a mess. I'm still a mess, but I definitely would have been more of a mess without some like actual formal education, the same way that somebody would go and like study engineering or something.

[4:43] Joe Carroll: And then the second thing that I just loved was her idea, and it was very early in the interview where she talks about how she always has one foot in the industry and one foot out of the industry. And from from the like the minute she got here. She's like she was always like, I don't know, I think I want to make music. I think I want to make music. I think I want to do other things, and I think that's so important because I personally, and I know for us, like podcast case in point, we are trying to do many different things because you're not going to be given the artistic opportunities that you want all the time. You're gonna treasure them when they come, but you have to make them, you have to search for them. You have to sometimes it's not given to you.

[5:20] Dan Tracy: Exactly.

[5:20] Joe Carroll: And she's constantly doing her own thing, making music, and and uh, you know, but also I thought the coolest part of the whole thing was how much Waitress made her fall in love with the theater again.

[5:31] Dan Tracy: And she cries twice.

[5:32] Joe Carroll: She cries twice.

[5:33] Dan Tracy: I was so stoked. I was like, I keep crying.

[5:35] Joe Carroll: I know me too. I love theater too.

[5:37] Dan Tracy: What were your favorites?

[5:38] Joe Carroll: Um, I think I think the things that that really struck me the most were like the acceptance she's made of how you pour your heart into something and how you do something and how you take ownership of a role.

[5:49] Dan Tracy: Right.

[5:49] Joe Carroll: She particularly points to the way that Idina was moving her arms when she's Elphaba, right? And when you're replacing someone, it's not necessarily about what they're doing, it's like why they're doing it. Right. And that little piece of advice I think is like so important as someone who's I mean, we all end up replacing a lot in this business, no matter who you are. And that's something that that people just need to be aware of that Shoshana's Jenna was so different than any other Jenna, and the ownership of that and how what that means was was really striking.

[6:19] Dan Tracy: And I also think that that's part of the other thing that I loved about it, which was her mindset, yeah, you know, and how she takes ownership of the psychology of vocal health.

[6:30] Joe Carroll: Uh-huh.

[6:31] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[6:31] Joe Carroll: Right.

[6:32] Dan Tracy: And like, like understanding that you're getting sometimes you get sick because you freak yourself out with anxiety.

[6:38] Joe Carroll: Alex tells me that all the time. She's like, I think that you psychosomatically freak yourself out.

[6:42] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[6:42] Joe Carroll: About like when I go into a Broadway theater, I'm like, it's moldy and it's dusty, and I'm gonna get sick. And it's like, well, actually, a part of that may be true. And yes, Joe, you might have a sinus infection, but also if you talk yourself into a sinus infection, you might have a sinus infection.

[6:55] Dan Tracy: Right.

[6:55] Joe Carroll: If you're up all night thinking, Oh my god, I'm I have this thing. And I mean, we had people, I there were so many people in school like that, yeah, who as soon as they knew that there were auditions coming up, they were sick.

[7:05] Dan Tracy: They got sick, yeah.

[7:06] Joe Carroll: Because they were up all night thinking about how they had to sleep. Because you know, there's so much psychology in singing for me, as somebody who came into training later, I'll point again to this book, The Art of Learning by Josh Waitzman, which I I um pointed to in the interview. That that book really opened my mind to like what I was doing to myself as a singer. And one of my voice teachers, uh, Robert Sasuma pointed that out to me at some point. He was like, You were doing a number to yourself just because of the way that you think about your voice.

[7:36] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[7:37] Joe Carroll: And and that was something in this interview that I think is really is really great because Shoshana really owns all of that too.

[7:42] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[7:42] Joe Carroll: And we can maybe nerd out about it more next week once you guys all listen to it.

[7:46] Dan Tracy: Yeah, yeah.

[7:47] Joe Carroll: Because we have obviously listened to it. I listened to it, Dan did it by himself, and then edited it, and then so I listened to it again.

[7:53] Dan Tracy: Exactly.

[7:53] Joe Carroll: So, like, we know what she's about to say. We're gonna let you guys just listen to this, which is awesome.

[7:57] Dan Tracy: Real quick, we'll do some things we love. Um, because there wasn't a lot of news this week, but I got to see Fairview at uh it's Soho Reps production that's currently at Theater for a New Audience.

[8:07] Joe Carroll: Um, Fairview, uh, one of the best things I've ever seen. And again, Joe gushing about theater that he's seen.

[8:13] Dan Tracy: And yeah, you know, I haven't really seen a lot of bad theater recently between uh Fairview and what the Constitution means to me and Strange Loop. I've seen a lot of great things.

[8:22] Joe Carroll: But this is um 2019 uh Pulitzer Prize winner for drama. Um, and it is a remarkable play about um racism and mostly uh surveillance when you are a person of color.

[8:39] Dan Tracy: And it was so uncomfortable and so amazing. And I really hope that they transfer it.

[8:43] Joe Carroll: And I had somebody I posted that on Instagram, and somebody was like, Do you think that they'll be able to transfer it and still do it justice? Especially the very end, because the ending is one of the greatest theatrical uh surprises that I have ever experienced.

[8:57] Dan Tracy: Oh, cool.

[8:57] Joe Carroll: And if they transfer it, I think that it would work. They would just they would just need to not screw with it.

[9:04] Dan Tracy: And I don't think they would. I think if they just took it, plopped it in a small intimate space, you know, the Belasco or the Circle and the Square or something. More people need to see it.

[9:13] Joe Carroll: Where can people see it now?

[9:14] Dan Tracy: Theater for a New Audience. It closes August 11th. I we need to see things earlier so that I can gush about them and people can actually go see them. But just like, let's get a Twitter campaign going that they'll bring Fairview to Broadway.

[9:24] Joe Carroll: So that's what I love this week.

[9:25] Dan Tracy: Awesome remarkable. Um I'm loving this week. This is literally hot off the presses seven minutes ago.

[9:33] Joe Carroll: Uh deadline has an exclusive that John Gallagher Jr. and Stark Sands are joining up.

[9:39] Dan Tracy: Uh Avid Brothers to do an A Brothers musical with Michael Mayer called Swept Away.

[9:45] Joe Carroll: They're gonna be at uh Berkeley Rep.

[9:49] Dan Tracy: There's no way that's gonna be bad, right?

[9:51] Joe Carroll: Well, I mean, both of them are just so like unreal. That that's so awesome.

[9:54] Dan Tracy: Uh Stark, I'm I've now done a Stark Sands role twice, so I've never been so stoked about anything.

[10:01] Joe Carroll: You're gonna replace him in the 2021, you know, 2021, 22.

[10:06] Dan Tracy: Pierce hoping.

[10:07] Joe Carroll: Um, okay, cool. Let's let's get into that interview uh right away here, and uh yeah, we'll see you on the other side.

[10:15] Dan Tracy: Shoshana Bean, welcome to Guys Who Like Musicals.

[10:18] Shoshana Bean: DT, thanks for having me.

[10:20] Dan Tracy: Guys, Joe's not here today because he's still in Italy while we're recording this. So now I get to get all of the beautiful life stories of Shoshana Bean, and Joe just has to deal with the fact that he's not here.

[10:31] Shoshana Bean: He's eating Italian food, he'll be fine.

[10:33] Dan Tracy: Yeah, he's drinking wine, he doesn't even know where he is. It's fine.

[10:37] Shoshana Bean: Um you have questions prepared?

[10:40] Dan Tracy: I do have questions prepared, which, like, you know, because Joe's not here, I had to make sure that I was on my game because I couldn't just um I'm impressed.

[10:49] Shoshana Bean: Um, I don't know. I think uh because that's exactly what I sound like all the time, isn't it?

[10:54] Dan Tracy: It's basically how you talk.

[10:55] Shoshana Bean: Basically talk like a frapp boys football for go blue.

[10:59] Dan Tracy: Yeah, go blue.

[11:00] Shoshana Bean: Um what is even your team, the Wolverine?

[11:02] Dan Tracy: The Wolverines.

[11:03] Shoshana Bean: Don't you dare come into my house and insult my team.

[11:05] Dan Tracy: No one says go wolves, they are like go blue.

[11:07] Shoshana Bean: So I'm like speaking of which go bear cats.

[11:10] Dan Tracy: Thank you.

[11:11] Shoshana Bean: Thank you. This is our thing.

[11:12] Dan Tracy: It's basically all venom.

[11:14] Shoshana Bean: Shoshana Bean went to CCM, not a big deal.

[11:16] Dan Tracy: Um DT What story goes.

[11:19] Shoshana Bean: Let's start like how we met.

[11:20] Dan Tracy: Let's start um from a few months ago. You just finished your run as Jenna in Waitress the Musical on Broadway, your grand return to the Broadway stage.

[11:32] Shoshana Bean: How are you feeling?

[11:33] Dan Tracy: Um good.

[11:35] Shoshana Bean: Liberated. It's nice to, I mean, I didn't, as you know, you were there. I was ridiculously emotional. Leaving was like, oh, it felt like a death or a breakup or something horrible. But um, but the post traumatic.

[11:49] Dan Tracy: Sure.

[11:49] Shoshana Bean: Um, hasn't been as bad as I thought it would be. It didn't feel like this sort of sense of a hangover. I felt just really grateful and really proud. And um, you know, I think all the professional stuff aside, the people, you guys, yeah, are the meat of the whole experience. And I realized just even this week, like, I'm not losing you guys. Like, I've spoken to almost every single one of you. I've seen most of you.

[12:11] Dan Tracy: Right.

[12:13] Shoshana Bean: Like, um our our connection, you know, I've learned over the years through our business is so hard like that. You meet people, you fall in love, and then they're, you know, you're just torn apart immediately.

[12:22] Dan Tracy: Absolutely.

[12:23] Shoshana Bean: But I do know that the the truest relationships stick, and it's a mutual effort. And um, and so uh yeah, I'm feeling good. It's nice to like, you know, I got my nails done, my hair, but I just feel like I can't.

[12:34] Dan Tracy: Yeah, you're looking like JLo.

[12:36] Shoshana Bean: Thank you. He knows how much that means to me.

[12:39] Dan Tracy: Um, yeah, I feel good.

[12:41] Shoshana Bean: That's great.

[12:42] Dan Tracy: How did how did your journey start there? How did that job how did that gig come up come about for you?

[12:47] Shoshana Bean: It's the funniest story. I was in New York in January. I was sick in bed. Um, and I was FaceTiming with Gavin Creel because I wasn't gonna be able to come see the show, him and Sarah in it. Um, and uh he was in his dressing room and we were FaceTiming, and just out of nowhere, and these are those moments where I'm like, some little angel tapped you on the shoulder, and he was like, Why haven't you ever, why haven't you ever played Jenna? And because I hadn't seen the show or heard any music, I think I've coached little girls singing choose to be mine, and I've coached little girls singing um Don Saul when he sees me.

[13:22] Shoshana Bean: Yeah. Um, but other than that, I knew nothing about the show. But I just knew the women who had played the role. Right. Uh, we are nothing alike. Um, and I just thought, why would I ever be a Jenna? To me, she seems like she's this type of a woman and this type of a character. I remember the movie from a hundred years ago. Um, and I just my instinct was to say to Gavin, why would I ever play Jenna? But because I have um in, you know, the past couple of years spent a lot of time with my friend Cynthia Arrivo, who has no boundaries or limits as far as like what she how she views herself or what she believes she's capable of. You can't tell her there are limits or boundaries for who she can play and how she can be seen, which is astounding to me because I grew up, you know, at a conservatory where it was very important to them that you knew where you belonged and where you fit and how you were pigeon-holed and what how you were gonna be defined.

And so I never allowed myself to. I mean, I think we all kind of did when we were in high college because we played roles that we would never play in real life, because it's an educational setting. I played six-year-old women in college. Do you know what I mean? Right. And you have to figure out like what makes you different from other people and like 100% you're gonna be and like how you're gonna work. Yes. Um when I first got here, right? I was like, I'll audition for everything because I can do anything. And very quickly, it, you know, just by the jobs I got, it became very clear how I was seen or how people wanted, you know, where they saw me. And um obviously I've been gone a long time and I haven't really thought of myself as any type of a character.

It's just on a on a project-to-project basis of like that sounds fun, or that would light me up. Obviously, funny girl and beaches, like it's kind of a no-brainer. Right. Um, but being around Cynthia has just made me less of a no-sayer, right? And more of a yessayer. So Gavin said that, and I was like, literally took everything within me not to say what was on the tip of my tongue. And I was like, I don't know why I haven't played Jenna. And he was like, You should talk to your people about that. And I said, if I I don't have representation. I'm um I have a If I had people. If I had people, I would call. However, my best friend is a manager, and so she handles deals that come my way. Awesome.

But rarely do I call her and say, Oh, can you find out about this or whatever? I said, if I call Michelle and I say, Can you inquire about me playing Jenna? She's gonna laugh in my face. And he said, I'm gonna talk to Sarah about it. So he hit me back later and he's like, I talked to Sarah. She kind of said what I thought she would say. She said, I feel like, wouldn't she be more of a Becky? And Gavin was like, No, you're missing it. I think you're missing what I'm seeing. And that was the last conversation we had about it. And not even, I guess it was three weeks later, Michelle was trying to get a hold of me, and I thought it was about another deal. So I wasn't really, I wasn't in a hurry to get back to her.

And she texted me and she's like, You need to call me. I have to talk to you about something. And so I called her and she's like, I have an offer here for for Jen and waitress. And I'm like, you must mean a work session or something. Sure. She's like, no, and it's next week. Like we have to do this right now because they want you to come in in a matter of day. Like they want you to start rehearsal. Like, I think I got the call on a Wednesday and I was in rehearsal by the next Thursday. So um, yeah, it was insane. They're crazy. In true waitress fashion. Yeah, that's one of the things over there is that they take forever to find who they want. But then when they do, they're like, hurry. Right.

Come on. Right. Yeah. Um that's so cool that Gavin was like, you know, the thing in us that says, I don't know. And it's it's wild to me now, knowing you and learning who you are, that the Shoshana Bean has feelings like that. Oh my god. Because like I obviously have feelings like that, and I'm sure people listening have feelings like that where you're like, well, I don't know if blank, right? But it's wild that that's something that you are still going through. Well, I think life just, you know, I think when I first got to New York, you couldn't tell me anything. And then, you know, a rejection here or there, or a heartbreak here or there, or a bad review here or there, or uh, you know, you hear someone's opinion here or there, and it's just like death by paper cuts.

And I woke up somewhere near my when I was about to turn 40, and I was like, what happened to you? Like, I still have a fire of of and of determination and and and creativity that I always am on to the next thing and on to something. But like I realized that I had sort of crafted this brave, courageous persona, but like had really made a safe lane for myself. And Waitress was Songs for a New World started it last year where I was like, oh God, I've been very safe, and now I'm back in this like world where people can compare you to other people. And that was exactly, you know, more of the fear that came up when waitress started is I was like, God, so many women, wonderful women have played this role.

This is just gonna beg comparisons. This is just gonna beg opinions about, you know. So it just it's been, you know, I don't even know if I'm I'm staying on on task for what the question was, but the the answer is everyone deals with that. Even the people who lead with, you know, even um, you know, even Cynthia deals with moments of of that, you know. Um it's just human, you know. And if you don't, you must be a sociopath. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, what like if you had like the pure ego where you never doubted yourself, like we'd be concerned about you. Yeah. And no one or you're doing things that you're safe with. If you're not scared and feeling like you might be fooling the world, you're not in an uncomfortable zone, which means you're not doing something that's outside of your wheelhouse or something, you know, it's something you've done before.

Right. It's not a challenge. So I have started to lean in in my old age. Um lean into the things that are scary. And like I said, turning 40 started that. I was like, You if you're lucky, you're halfway through your life. If you're lucky, you have 40 more years. What are you gonna do? Right. So, yeah. So, what's next? So I hate that question. No, no, not like, not like, are you booked? But like, like, what do you really want? You know, like what do you do you want to like like try and find an OBC to take to Broadway? Like, do you want to do this? Do you want to stick around and be here and do this? Because I know you've kind of always had a foot in the door and a foot doing what you want, which a lot of people may think whatever they want about, but I admire it because like you're you're creating your own lane in doing that, you know.

You're you're finding opportunities for yourself and you're doing what makes you happy, right? So, like, what do you think looking ahead now? I think that you just nailed it. I learned to just do what makes me happy instead of doing things for a result, or like if I do this, then I'll be able to do like everything has just become about like what lights my heart on fire, what is exciting, what makes me hype to get out of bed every morning? And when this came across the table, that sounded exciting um and terrifying. But what's next is I feel like I have done everything I've wanted to do. I just want it to keep expanding. So, yes, I would love to do an original cast. Um, but knowing that that commitment is it's huge.

So wanting it to be like something that just like I would, you know, bleed myself dry for because that's kind of what it is. I have to do a story you have to tell. Yeah, OBC for sure, more albums for sure, on a grander scale for sure. Um, I'm entering into a project where I will um executive music produce, you know, things like that. Um, which I'm very excited about. I'm very excited. I love soup to nuts projects. I love starting as a seed and then creating something and having a finished product that is as a Virgo that is like so fulfilling for me. So I'm excited about that. There was a time where I the last place I wanted to be was behind the scenes. Uh because I love performing so much. But I also just am so satisfied by the project of like making music, um, being in the studio, like editing and and mixing.

I just I love it so much. Um, they say one book I read was uh um that Jensen Cheryl book, You're a badass. And she says, like the place where you belong is the place where you can be and lose track of time. What is the thing that you do that you can look up and be like, I've been doing this for eight hours? Where did the day go? Yeah. And I was like, that's on stage or that's in the studio for me. Right. Um, not in I don't the rehearsal room is a hard room for me. I'm so ADD. But um, see. Uh but yeah, that's I I would say that I have touched or been close to everything that I want to do in life. I just would love to continue to expand it to be on a bigger and broader scale. So, in that vein of like what passes the time, and how did you fall in love with theater in the first place?

How did this become the thing that you decided to do? Like, what's 10-year-old Shoshana Bean like? You know, what's funny is I forgot, I'm gonna cry. I forgot how much I loved it until I was back on stage with you guys. Isn't that always the thing? I was walking, even just coming every day that I would be there, for some reason the floor, that tile floor, the painted tile floor and that blue sky makes me so emotional because the first day I walked in, and Sarah was waiting in the MD office and my script, and it's waitress, Shoshana Bean, and we walk out on stage to start singing through the material, and I just so vividly remember the floor and the sky. I'd never seen the show, so I had no visual image.

And I just I was like, I'm home. Like it's where I I've been raised in the theater. So for me to be gone from it for so long or deny that it's such a huge part of me is like inauthentic. And coming back is like, you know what I mean? Like this is home. Yeah. And so I think I was, it's just always been in me. And my mom was a dancer, so her first instinct of what to do with me and all my energy and you know, inclination to draw attention toward myself, um, was to put me in dance class. So I started in dance, and then there was this children's theater group. Um, the Capital Kids, because Olympia Washington is the capital. We were like a vaudevillion performing group. It was just a review. Like we just did like Broadway tunes and like standards, and you know, closed it out with that's what friends are for.

And I just actually thinking about it now. This is the first time I've had this realization, but even back then the performing part was fun. But when it ended, it was the friendships that I had made that were the hardest to say goodbye to. So I don't know, it's just I've always had one toe in it, and also, you know, all my digits and other things because even in junior high and high school, like I still was on the drill team, I still was, you know, going to the football games and sacrificing like being in a show or do or being fully committed to the theater program because I just wanted, I just wanted other things. I've felt divided most of my life in that way. Like, I love this thing, but I cannot give everything to it all the time.

It can have me when I'm there, I'm all the way in. I, you know, when I came back to waitress, I was like, if you're gonna do this, Shoshana, even if it's for five months, like you are going to be all the way in. Like, don't half ask this and try to skim above the surface so that you don't break your heart when you leave. Right. Um, yeah, I just always want other things too. Balance. And you're but your love, like you, you had so many other, like you were into soul music and you like grew up kind of loving lots of you weren't just obsessed with musical theater. Correct. I don't know where that came or why. I think it's because at that time, aside from singing in my living room for my parents, like that was the only access to performing was theater.

Um, there weren't RB competitions for there wasn't American Idol, there wasn't majoring in pop music, there wasn't all the things that there are today for kids who wanna. I really just wanted to be Whitney Hughes. I just wanted to be a pop star. Right. Um, but theater became the access through which I could perform and express myself in the way that I saw these people on MTV doing it, right? Um, so that's why. And in doing so, I learned the value of the relationships you create. And, you know, I went and saw the prom the other day and I cried through the whole thing. Like I'm a musical theater nerd. Right. Like at heart. Um, so yeah, I think it was just the access. And and and because of that, and then also like I had a theatrical experience that changed the course of my life, which was when I was nine years old, my parents divorced, and my mom and I moved from Olympia Washington to Portland, Oregon, which was and I'm an only child, so this is like devastating.

Sure. And right when we got there, thank God she did. She put me in an acting class. Um, because I think she knew that that would be my constant, or like the thing that would keep me happy and active. So because it was summer, so there was no school. So I took this acting class, and like on one of the first days, the acting teacher said, There's this new performing arts center being built in Portland, Oregon, and the musical that's going to open this new gorgeous state of the art performing arts center is this show called Sunday in the Park with George. And they're bringing in the leads from New York. It's a very big deal. And there's one kid in the show. I think Shoshana should audition. I did, I got the part. And in that show, Dot was played by Pam Myers, who was one of the first graduates of CCM.

[26:50] Shoshana Bean: And I just, first of all, I had the run of the joint because I'm the only kid, so there wasn't a Wrangler. There wasn't rules. I would sneak into the house and watch the entire show, second act, because Louise isn't in the second act from the sound booth. Like I could do whatever I wanted. I was an absolute terror. And it's such a playground. Like being a kid in the theater is the most fun thing because all of a sudden you have all this access to these adults and they're giving you attention. You're special. I shared a dressing room with all the adult women saying horrible things.

[27:19] Shoshana Bean: So I met Pam, who just I was enamored by her and that role in the show. And the woman who played the nurse ended up being my voice teacher. Who then, when I'm about to, you know, graduate high school, well, not I mean, when do you apply for colleges? Junior year or when do you apply?

[27:38] Dan Tracy: It's beginning of senior year.

[27:39] Shoshana Bean: Okay. Yeah. At that point, she's like, Shawnee, you know, you can major in musical theater. You can't, you can go to school. Who needs to go to school for theater? Like, I'm already doing it.

[27:49] Dan Tracy: Right.

[27:49] Shoshana Bean: And she's like, you know, Pam Myers went to this school in Cincinnati. Um, and of course, Pam Myers was like the magic words to me, because I was she was just like an idol to me. So I checked it out, and that so to me, that was a course changer. Like it just solidified, it gave me the voice teacher that groomed me and also said to me, You know, you can go on and keep doing this.

[28:14] Dan Tracy: Right.

[28:14] Shoshana Bean: Because to me, I was gonna go to University of Oregon, go ducks, and major in business and take over my dad's industrial supply company. Like it wasn't an it didn't compute that I could like do this for a living. Nor did I think I needed an education to do it. The young ego. Um, so yeah, I think theater changed saved my life. I don't know what kind of kid I would have been if I didn't have something that I loved and was mildly good at.

[28:34] Dan Tracy: Right.

[28:34] Shoshana Bean: I don't know what happens to those people. I just I can't imagine not having something, yeah, like that.

[28:49] Joe Carroll: Yeah, we're really fortunate to know what we love and what we're passionate about, and like being given the opportunity to pursue that for sure.

[28:56] Shoshana Bean: Totally. Um do you still think that an education is necessary to do this?

[29:03] Joe Carroll: Do you?

[29:04] Shoshana Bean: I don't. I think that everything. I'm glad I did it. Um I'm absolutely glad I did it, and I needed it. Um, it was a difficult experience for me. Um, I think some educators are loving and supportive and often and sometimes use tough love, and that breeds wonderful talent. And I think some educators love to rule by fear and cruelty. Um I don't know if that's what I needed necessarily to be well taught, but it it is what I got, and it's what I I don't regret going to CCM.

[29:40] Dan Tracy: I think that they prepared me for something far more difficult than the real world was, which I think is fantastic.

[29:45] Shoshana Bean: It's like comp when you study for the SATs. I remember studying for the SATs, and I'm like, this is I'm never gonna be. And then the test, I'm like, this is the test. Oh, please. That's how I felt about college. It's CCM. I'm like, oh God, you know, you gotta be prepared at moments' notice and have 10 songs ready. And then you know, everything was so over prepared. And I got to New York, and I'm like, oh, we're good. We're ready. We're okay.

[30:06] Um, so I'm grateful for that education. Um, but no, when kids ask me, do I have to go to college to do musical theater? No, because you and I both know we're working with all kinds. We're working with some kids who went straight from high school to work at Disney or the cruise lines, or some kids that came straight here and just started pounding the pavement and taking classes.

[30:24] Shoshana Bean: Um, I think that no two people have the same path. I think it's even more difficult to go to college these days. It was expensive when I went, but it's like even it's almost virtually impossible for a lower to middle class income family to afford to send their kids to college, more so the middle class because they can't get financial aid.

[30:41] Dan Tracy: Right.

[30:41] Shoshana Bean: Um yeah, I do I absolutely do not think it's necessary. What I think is necessary is tenacity and ridiculous amounts of hard work and commitment and resilience.

[30:52] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[30:53] Shoshana Bean: And I think you can learn that in college, you can learn that in the real world, you can learn that on the job.

[30:58] Dan Tracy: Right.

[30:58] Shoshana Bean: Yeah.

[30:59] Joe Carroll: Yeah, you can know that it can be part of you or or not.

[31:02] Shoshana Bean: Um interesting. So you graduate from CCM and you showcase, right?

[31:08] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[31:09] Shoshana Bean: Uh, we just we just talked with my agent about showcasing. What was your what was that experience like for you? Did you like have meetings and sign with somebody? How did how did you go from graduation to because you did a show off Broadway, right?

[31:22] Shoshana Bean: And then you made your debut pretty quickly after that.

[31:25] Joe Carroll: Kind of.

[31:27] Shoshana Bean: Uh we the I remember being super scared too because uh I knew I wanted to be with Baumann or Dante Shaw. Or at the time they were called Baum Bauman.

[31:37] Joe Carroll: Yeah, that's who it was.

[31:38] Shoshana Bean: No, that was later. So before it was, I think it was just Bauman, Baumann and Associates or Bauman and something like when I we're talking 20 years ago.

[31:46] Joe Carroll: You you know that that's that's who you're with?

[31:48] Shoshana Bean: That's who I'm with. And I we talked to Char Charles Bodner last week. Jackie, give him my love.

[31:54] Shoshana Bean: So they were Bauman and Baumann Hiller, Bauman Hiller back then, Bauman Hiller. Jesus. Um I knew I wanted to be with them because the people that I looked up to who had graduated prior had all signed to them. And I wanted to do what they had done, and I liked where their careers were going. They were all in lame is. I was like, that's what I want to do.

[32:14] Dan Tracy: Right.

[32:14] Shoshana Bean: So I had in my mind already like that's who I want. And you know, there's a list, so gross. There's a list, and it shows you like who wants to have a meeting with you at the end. And I think it was them and maybe a couple others, but I didn't care. I just saw Bauman, and that's all I cared about.

[32:29] Shoshana Bean: And I think I met with them before I left town, and then I had to go get my card at the Muni. So I went to St. Louis and did Annie and beat me in St. Louis, and I was so scared because they were like, call us when you get back to town. And I was like, and they teach you at CCM, you don't want to freelance with an agent, you want to sign.

[32:45] Dan Tracy: Right.

[32:46] Shoshana Bean: So I was like terrified they were gonna forget and they would want to freelance. But I get back and they signed me gratefully, and I did Godspell right away.

[32:54] Joe Carroll: I got Godspell almost immediately.

[32:55] Shoshana Bean: Which was off Broadway.

[32:56] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[32:57] Shoshana Bean: And we did that for about a year, and then hairspray wasn't for another couple years. I think two years until I got hairspray, and I was, you know, I went on a tour of Leader of the Pack. I worked odd jobs like in Equinox and restaurants and the medical college and sang back up for Alice Ripley and sang back up for Michael Jackson and just random shit.

[33:18] Joe Carroll: No big deal.

[33:19] Shoshana Bean: That was a very big deal. That's cool. Actually, Alice was like a huge deal for me too because you know, side show.

[33:24] Joe Carroll: Yeah, of course.

[33:25] Shoshana Bean: That was rad. Um, and then hairspray happened.

[33:28] Joe Carroll: Yeah, it sounds so vintage the way I'm describing all this.

[33:31] Shoshana Bean: This doesn't, it doesn't, I don't even know how it happens anymore.

[33:34] Joe Carroll: No, it's it's kind of exactly like that.

[33:37] Shoshana Bean: They showcase, they get signed.

[33:38] Joe Carroll: Yeah, you showcase, you like they send Rachel Hoffman sends you an email, right? That says that these are the people.

[33:45] Shoshana Bean: Yeah, these are the people that want to meet with you, and you're like, uh it was like a child agent, and you know what I mean? It's like, what the hell? Who are these people? You know, when you're asking people, and I'm like, well, who's BRS? And Joe is like, oh, they're great. You should sign with them. I was like, sure, great, let's do that.

[34:02] Shoshana Bean: Um, that's exactly how it happens. But now there's just so many showcases and so many kids. Back in the day, we were only one of very few.

[34:12] Joe Carroll: Right.

[34:13] Shoshana Bean: That was the time when there were 10. And the sad thing is that like those are still the 10 schools that like are they looking at.

[34:19] Joe Carroll: Yeah, you know, not necessarily like Baldwin Wallace has emerged as this great program and Elon and places like that.

[34:27] Shoshana Bean: That's good to know. Kids are always asking me, and I'm like, I only know like the big five.

[34:31] Joe Carroll: Right, right.

[34:32] Shoshana Bean: Well, and you know, not I wouldn't get into Michigan now, I don't think.

[34:36] Joe Carroll: Like why do you think that?

[34:37] Shoshana Bean: Because the Taylor Lauderman's and Ashley Park of the world, these girls who have like hit big early in their careers, have drawn the best of the best talent from across the country and around the world.

[34:49] Joe Carroll: So the pool is just yeah, it's insane.

[34:52] Shoshana Bean: And you have to, there's 33,000 applicants, and I don't know. I don't mean to ramble about this, but it's crazy. Like, and you have to do a pre screen even to get an audition.

[35:00] Joe Carroll: Wow.

[35:01] Shoshana Bean: You have to like make a video audition to get an audition. And I don't even think I would have done it. I would have because I was the same way. I was like, I didn't realize how much work was gonna go into this.

[35:09] Joe Carroll: Yeah, it took me years of college to realize how much work this was gonna be.

[35:13] Shoshana Bean: And then I got here and then I was like, oh, that and that was just the beginning. Because you'd never actually like sunk your teeth into anything.

[35:21] Joe Carroll: Yeah, fair enough.

[35:22] Shoshana Bean: And like done something for a long period of time. Um prepares you for eight shows a week. No one prepares you for 400 shows or whatever. You know, no one prepares you for even eight shows. It's it's a crazy business.

[35:34] Joe Carroll: So you're you've finished your first Broadway show, or you're in your first Broadway show.

[35:41] Shoshana Bean: Hairspray.

[35:42] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[35:42] Shoshana Bean: And you get an offer to do No.

[35:48] Joe Carroll: No.

[35:49] Shoshana Bean: Oh yeah, I guess I did. In Hairspray, I got offered the ensemble of Wicked.

[35:53] Joe Carroll: Right.

[35:53] Shoshana Bean: And I said to cover Elphaba.

[35:55] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[35:55] Shoshana Bean: What ultimately was Christy Cates' track. My roommate from CCM.

[35:59] Joe Carroll: Uh oh, no way.

[36:01] Shoshana Bean: I did a reading with her. I didn't realize that.

[36:02] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[36:03] Shoshana Bean: That's so funny. She was like my best mate at CCM.

[36:06] Shoshana Bean: Um, but they offered me the ensemble and the second cover, because there's a standby for Elphaba.

[36:11] Joe Carroll: Right.

[36:12] Shoshana Bean: And at the time I was getting ready to, I knew my time at Hairspray was limited. I think I was giving myself like six months. I was trying to save up this amount of money, and then I was gonna leave. And I thought, God, I just don't want to make a move that's gonna put me back in previews and back in rehearsal, you know.

[36:29] Right.

[36:29] Shoshana Bean: I don't want to do this all over again to be in the ensemble again. Like I just so I said no. And um, gratefully Christy got the part. I think it was her Broadway debut.

[36:39] Joe Carroll: Um, and then probably six, barely nine months later, they called and asked me to come take over for Eden as the standby.

[36:50] Shoshana Bean: I had left Hairspray. I had moved down to Florida chasing this record label. I was living with my great aunt in like a retirement village. And like, you know, trying to make music and impress this label enough to sign me.

[37:05] Joe Carroll: Um and they Wicked called. Tim called and said from BRS and said, listen, this is what the offer is.

[37:16] Shoshana Bean: And I was like, oh, standby I can do. Cause I can still write music. I'm just gonna be upstairs hanging out. I can still be within a five-block radius. I back in the day, you could be in a five, I don't know if you can anymore.

[37:27] Joe Carroll: Well, I don't know. Some some theaters, I've I've heard stories about people being at the bar next door.

[37:33] Shoshana Bean: Yeah. But uh, I feel like we I used to go to the gym, go to the movies, whatever.

[37:37] Joe Carroll: Right, right.

[37:37] Shoshana Bean: As long as your cell phone was on, you were okay. And I was like, plus a flight from New York to Miami, which is where I was working, is like what, an hour, two hours? Like, that'll be so easy to do on my day off. Cheapish and yeah.

[37:49] Shoshana Bean: So I was like, this is totally doable.

[37:51] Joe Carroll: Right.

[37:51] Shoshana Bean: So I went back and I learned the show, I think really quickly because when I went in, they were like, and she has a vacation to shoot enchanted or whatever that was.

[38:02] Joe Carroll: Okay.

[38:03] Shoshana Bean: Like a month or two into my run as standby. And so I trailed her very early, and like, you know, I was like, oh fuck. Again, the theater, like the theater thing. Like you can deny it, but like I'm there and I'm like, I want this.

[38:18] Joe Carroll: Right.

[38:18] Shoshana Bean: I want that, I want to do this. Like just everything from like being in her dressing room with her, and like, you know, Tay was sleeping on the couch, and I'm like, this whole thing, I want this. Like, I want this experience. I want it, and I didn't, again, I went back and like, I'm not gonna care about, you know, I'm just gonna be a standby. It's not a big deal. I don't I didn't expect to fall in love with the whole thing, you know.

[38:39] So yeah.

[38:41] Shoshana Bean: So then after I wasn't there very long, and I said, Tim, you gotta tell them like when they're coming up on like looking at her replacement, like I really want to be considered. And he was like, Yeah, yeah, you're in the mix, you're in the mix.

[38:52] Shoshana Bean: Um, but then they came back and said that it wasn't gonna happen. And um, I think they were really just hoping Eden would, you know, finish Brooklyn in time to come back.

[39:03] Joe Carroll: And so even at one point they were like, Can you just do it for a month before Eden?

[39:07] Shoshana Bean: And I was like, No, I'm not gonna be your interim girl. Like, no.

[39:11] Joe Carroll: You said no.

[39:13] Shoshana Bean: Uh to that I did, but they they didn't offer they said it was sort of not going any further as part of like, yeah.

[39:19] Shoshana Bean: And so I put in, I think I put in my notice. I was like, I'm gonna take my vacation at the end of my six months, and so I'm leaving after five months. Like I kind of like something, I finagled something, and they were like, Well, can you just stay on?

[39:32] Shoshana Bean: No, I can't. So then they were like auditioning girls because in the Gersh one is a massive theater, so there's dressing rooms and also a rehearsal space upstairs.

[39:42] Joe Carroll: Wow.

[39:42] Shoshana Bean: Um, so above me and Megan's dressing room, the standby dressing room, one floor up, we're on the third floor, and then the fourth floor is this massive rehearsal space. They were like auditioning girls up there above my drone.

[39:54] Shoshana Bean: I could hear it. It was absolute torture. It was like awful. Plus, knowing like really what they wanted was Eden. It was just like a very difficult situation.

[40:15] Shoshana Bean: So this was 2004. Uh, Harvey was the one that called me, and he's like, Cookie. Are you sitting down? And I was like, oh God. What did I do? I've missed like five calls from Tim Marshall. I can't hear this from you. Nope. No, no, no, nope, nope, nope, nope. So I hung up on him and I called my agent, and he was like, it's happening. And at the time I was like over the moon about it. But what stuck with me unfortunately through that whole run was just this like story and belief and feeling that I was not first choice, that I was just a replacement. And I think it was self-preservation. I really think it was such a massive gift and role and moment in theater that I just couldn't really own it and take it all in.

So I just kind of was like, I'm just a replacement. I'm just gonna barf up whatever I saw happening on the stage and just sort of like try to recreate that. I'm not gonna really take the time to get to know this character and like justify the things I'm doing. Adina did these arms, I'm doing those arms. And yeah, and also just like kept some sort of a distance between me and the role, thinking like, well, I was second choice. So you know, right? And it was like six months in that Joe Mantello came to the show, and he wanted to work with Megan and I and whoever I forget, or David Ayers was my Fiyero, and you know, whoever else was in the cast at the time. And he was kind of like, What are you doing?

I don't understand like the things you're doing with your arms, or like, why are you? And I wanted to say, like, I'm just doing what Adina did. But obviously, Adina had done the work to create this character, and everything was because of something internal. And I just didn't A, I didn't really have direction going in. We had, you know, an associate director there, but I just I didn't know. And so I at that point, I think I was like, you're gonna have to take a little ownership of this kid. Like, you're gonna have to make this your own. More than just the music. You know what I mean? Like make the character and this and this human your own. So coming back and doing Waitress has healed a lot of like old wounds for me.

Um, in regards to replacing. And even just the other day, I tweeted this thing, which has gotten more likes than followers that I have, so I don't know. I tweeted because I caught an elevator the other day. And this girl said, You're Elphaba. And I said, No, I'm not Elphaba. And she was like, Yes, yes, you are. And I said, Not for many years. And she said, But you're my Elphaba. And there's like this thing where I've just like disconnected from the whole experience because I'm like, it's just become this massive thing. 9,000 girls have played Elphaba. Like I was, you know, 13, 14 years ago. Like, I'm not, that's not me anymore. And everyone associates with these videos they've seen online or they were at the theater or whatever.

And I just thought, like, you don't get to decide that. Like for those people, you and to feel like I have to finally own like the impact that was made, or what that like if I saw my first Fantine or my first Eponine, or when I did, when I got to meet um the girl who played my sister, who played Nessa Rose on the road, um, Didi Magno Hall, she was my Kim in Saigon. And when we had our first rehearsal together and she started singing, I fell apart because I'm like, you're my Kim. Like, and she'll probably be like, Yeah, now I'm playing your sister in a wheelchair. But I'm like, you're my Kim. Like the experience that people have of you being their that. Like, I just, yeah, this whole coming back has like really taught me not to downplay it or like minimize it just because it's too much for me to hold or carry. Like it's that I won't allow myself to like take that on or in. Like, am I making any sense?

[44:03] Joe Carroll: No, you're making complete sense. It's it's like we're afraid of getting hurt, you know. But like the only thing that you have is the work that you do, but then you like downplay the work and you don't necessarily want to give your all to the work because then you're making yourself vulnerable to these like this opportunity.

[44:25] Shoshana Bean: Critics. Yeah, right. And it's so funny because like literally what you're doing is putting yourself in front of people for a living.

[44:32] Joe Carroll: Yes.

[44:33] Shoshana Bean: And that's the that is the paradox of being a performer. Look at me, don't look at me. Look at me, don't look at me. Right. And you like thrive off the attention, but it's also the scariest thing that you could ever get. And like, you know, there's part of you that wants you, you want Eden, uh, you want Adina's life, but you don't want all the other hard shit that has come with how she got there and all that.

[44:56] Joe Carroll: Yeah, but no one tells you about that stuff.

[44:57] Shoshana Bean: And even Adina didn't tell me about that stuff. She never said to me, kiddo, when you lock out that stage door every night, like it's gonna be hard. It's even more energy, and people want even more from you, even though you just bled on stage for three hours. Right. They want more. So your job doesn't end until you get in the car and you shut the door and you're on your way home. Like, no one tells you that.

[45:17] Joe Carroll: Right.

[45:18] Shoshana Bean: And the stage door is a whole other experience. And the fan mail and the people who, you know, there were so many things of like, you know, people will do a lot of things and use a lot of, they just everyone wants something. Do you know what I mean? And no one prepares you for that. Right. And if you're a generous person, you can get blood dry. There's just a lot of things that I wish um that the elders in our community would share. F everything from vocal damage to vocal surgeries to, you know, dealing with the stage door to dealing with their own health, to dealing with producers. Like there's so so many things that we just don't talk about because we don't, we're ashamed or we don't want to be the one to start the conversation. But once someone's brave enough to open their mouth, 10 other people in the vicinity are like, me too.

[46:04] Joe Carroll: Right.

[46:05] Shoshana Bean: So I just, you know, I think it's it's an important conversation to have and to start. And I try, as I believe an elder, just by age alone in this community, is like, you know, to try and have those conversations about self-care, mental and physical. Um because it's not that you're ungrateful and it's not that you don't appreciate the opportunity.

[46:25] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[46:25] Shoshana Bean: And then people are like, well, this is your job. You're here. And it's like, well, no, I don't think that it's your job to um to deal with the mental health of the people who you're interacting with at the stage door. And that's a lot of what our business is is like unprotected access to these performers. And and it's there, there's a lot that's asked of you.

[46:48] Joe Carroll: Yeah, but I think if you go in knowing that and you understand what kind of energy it takes, and that the job doesn't end when you take your costume off, you know, um you'd and if and if you and there are nights like you know, and I I don't apologize for it, like there are nights where I just don't have it to give at the stage door, and so I won't do it. Like you have to know your own limits and what you're capable of and what it takes and how to protect yourself. I mean, there's just so many things. This is a whole other episode of the podcast where we talk about like the self-care of an artist and the things that no one teaches you in college, and the things that unfortunately, you know, if I'm passing down a role to someone, like there are probably a million things I would have liked to have said to Allison, like, watch out for this, watch out for this.

But I wasn't asked. And I don't want to assume that she needs my help or guidance or is gonna have the same experience. I wouldn't want to say look out for this, when it may not even be a roadblock for her. Um, so it's just hard to navigate, like, unless someone reaches out to you and says, yo, yeah, what do I need to look out for? What do I, or you know, how did you navigate this? Um, I just think it's important for those of us who know to share with those who don't and protect them.

[47:56] Shoshana Bean: So, what are some of the things that you're doing? We were speaking before we started rolling about just like a general vocal fatigue moment of your life, but like what are you doing? Because you sang the shit out of Jenna in a way that's it's not just like, oh wow, like she did a lot of interesting melody changes. It was like, no, you were like, what I learned most from you was like how to put your heart into your voice. And that was something that like you did every single night, and it wasn't about sounding perfect. It was about like what you were experiencing, right? And but because of all of that, you're having these like, I'm sure you have physical restraints that you've learned how to manage. And like, are there any any advice you have? Like, what are your I'm I'm sure there aren't any secrets. It's not like you can take a pill and everything's fine.

[48:46] Shoshana Bean: No, I do not take pills. There's so many secrets. Um, and again, that's a whole other episode. But for me, um, God, I learned so much doing this role because I came in having been sick for like three months, couldn't shake this cold. It just kept morphing and changing and moving. And I tried everything. And so when I got this and I came in, I'm like, I don't know how I can't even stay healthy for like it's been three months. How am I gonna do this? And um, oh God, how where do I even begin about this? I met someone who taught me about like the mind-body connection and how to manage and your nervous system essentially. Um that your body is constantly asking you, basically asking your brain, are we in fight or flight?

Are we in rest and recover? Are we in danger? Are we safe? Are we, you know, and talking about the evolution of a body has not it's not caught up with modern technology. So the danger of what is that, a buffalo? A wild boy, like you know. It's beautiful. But I'm trying to think of a wild animal coming towards you, which is what would have happened in the caveman days, and that's danger. And so your body does a number of things to protect you. But we experience those same things which are when we walk into an audition room. When you walk into an audition, when you walk on stage, right? You your body is responding to danger, fear. Right. Um, it doesn't know the difference between almost being hit by a bus or yeah, um, doing your opening, doing your first rehearsal with the cast of Waitress. You know what I mean?

[50:16] Joe Carroll: Sure.

[50:17] Shoshana Bean: So all these experiences, whether it's my voice, you know, being difficult, or whether it's a sinus infection, or whether I have a pain in my back, or whether I have a migraine, like any of those things are manifestations of a your body trying to protect you from something, we're in danger, it's scary for you to go on stage on Broadway again. Cool. So the the safer thing is for me to be in bed at home. Great. So here's a cold. Right. Great, your voice isn't gonna work. I tell kids all the time, I'm like, you ever notice how you have a big show coming up or like a big audition and you get sick or you lose your voice? Like, like there's a reason. There's this fear and anxiety that informs your nervous system that things are not okay.

So I learned that, and I was able to be like, oh, my body's actually working for me, not against me. So anytime something happens, I'm like, all right, what's really going on underneath that I'm not maybe conscious of? Um, what am I afraid of? What am I angry about? What's going on that my body is either trying to get my attention about something emotional or trying to protect me from. So that was the first big thing that made this experience like so powerful and made me capable of more shit. You guys think it's so cool that I would fly out, do a concert and come back and do a show. I wouldn't have been able to do that prior to this and that knowledge. Because I'd be like, I'm flying, I'm gonna get sick.

Who everyone gets sick on an airplane. And then you get sick. I slept one hour. I'm gonna, I'm not gonna be able to sing today. But instead of that, I'd be like, well, it is what it is. Right. However, this goes. And just confronting that like reality is something that has helped you.

[51:38] Joe Carroll: Oh my God, it's transformed my life. And each, you know, with each new thing, whether it's the no sleep or the traveling, or the like, you know, the whole building was sick my final week at Waitress. Right. And part of me was like, and then I was like, no, we're not. That's not my cold. Like, we're not not my last week. Do you know what I mean? Like, I just, and it's it's more than just saying, like, I'm not gonna get that cold. It's the lack of fear of getting the cold, is the thing that prevents you know what I mean?

[52:04] Shoshana Bean: Sure, right. So that's a huge conversation, which again, someday I think that I should have my I want my friend who changed my life with this information to teach performers because it is something our our instrument and our ability to do our job relies on our health.

[52:19] Joe Carroll: Yeah, I wanna I wanna throw a shout out to this book called The Art of Listening.

[52:23] Shoshana Bean: Okay, which is right there close to the end.

[52:26] Joe Carroll: She's pointing to my bookshelf. That book is about um sports performance, psychology.

[52:33] Shoshana Bean: Okay.

[52:33] Joe Carroll: Which is now like basically the biggest thing in sports in the last 20 years, is that all of these these men and women have understood that it exactly what you're talking about. The psychology of what makes a golfer hit a bad shot is way more than the muscular like the actual bad swing is a result of a s of thought, not you know what I mean?

[52:57] Shoshana Bean: And that's the like so the same.

[53:00] Joe Carroll: It's helped you with performance.

[53:01] Shoshana Bean: Oh my god, that is so the same as not being able to sing in your audition because you're panicking that you didn't right, and then there's tools to help you, and that book is just a really good. If you have any stage fright or any fear or any anxiety, around performance, read The Art of Listening and start to do some of the things that it talks about in there. And check out Nicole Sachs on YouTube and podcasts and everything. She's the one who I worked with.

[53:23] Joe Carroll: Awesome.

[53:25] Shoshana Bean: SA C H S, Nicole Sachs. Awesome. Maybe that was part of it.

[53:33] Shoshana Bean: It's not always necessarily pretty, but it's essentially what you said. Which I take as a compliment only because when I was in theater before, to me, theater means, uh, was always like a, um, an attempt at perfection. You have to hit this number, you have to hit these notes, you sing the black dots on the page, you don't sing anything else. You know, especially in Wicked, there's no room for like, I just felt like singing that today. Like, no, this is what's written, and you stick to that. Yeah. You have to move at this moment, especially in Wicked, because if you don't, someone's gonna get hurt. Right. Um, there's just this like need to fit inside this, like very in the lines. And from my perspective, at that time in my life.

Then I go away and I do my own music for, you know, 12, 13 years now, and am experimenting in all different styles and have been in every possible performance situation from the best to the absolute worst, and have just had to figure it out. And what I have figured out is I'm no matter what the situation or the music or whatever, I am a communicator. I'm a vessel, I'm a communicator through music. And the only way to do that is to allow complete access to my heart through my voice. So that you say that is like the highest compliment because that's the intention. Is like, how can I just share my heart with you? And my access is through this instrument. And however it sounds and however it goes is fine because I know that it's in its purest form.

If it sounds vocally perfect, fantastic. If it sounds like shit today, I'm still like you're still sharing your heart, which is the only thing that, yeah, that is asked of you. Yes, but unfortunately, not actually being asked. That's my requirement of myself. But it's not what is actually being asked of performers these days, I don't think. But you know, when we all I listen to podcasts all the time, which is probably no surprise. But every single film actor who you love is talking about the fact that when they learned how to open their heart in an audition room, everything changed. Yeah. And like I have been so caught up in trying to sound a certain way or trying to sound like Jeremy or sound like Gavin or sound like Aaron.

And, you know, it's about what Shoshana Bean does today. It's about what you do today, not necessarily like what Which is different every day. Which is different every day, and allowing that to kind of happen is way more interesting and way more fulfilling as somebody watching that than singing exactly the same thing and sounding like the record every time.

[56:09] Dan Tracy: Well, there's yes, yes, I'm 100% agreement.

[56:13] Shoshana Bean: The gift is this score, the Waitress score gave me that permission. Like she used to be mine. I just, there's no there's no way I'm gonna be. I mean, of course I'm concerned about how I sound. Of course, I berate myself when I come off stage and I'm like, ah, but ultimately that it wasn't at the expense of like, oh, I'm gonna hold back here because I don't know how it's gonna sound. I mean, you know, it's just that song. Everything else, like I hated, you know, sounding bad on what baking can do or things like that.

[56:43] Joe Carroll: You never did. Are you kidding?

[56:45] Shoshana Bean: But you know what I mean? Like, I just think it's this business, and I think it's hard for people not the good, the good news is I can't ever try to sound like I just don't sound like anybody else. But if you have the ability to emulate a Jeremy or a Gavin or an Aaron, I hate that people feel like that's what they need to do to get hired or to be seen or to be appreciated. Right. Um, but I'm pretty sure that Gavin and Jeremy and Aaron weren't trying to sound like anybody else. And so all I my call to action and my plea for every performer out there is to just be who you are, because that's what we need. That's what we don't have. That's like why you're here.

[57:26] And you said in another interview, like you're not preparing for the industry that is here now.

[57:31] Shoshana Bean: Correct. You're preparing for the like if you're in school, or even if you know, you're here sitting in this couch, you're preparing for what is to come.

[57:39] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[57:40] Shoshana Bean: And you're you can't see it. You're the vehicle for what is to come.

[57:43] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[57:44] Shoshana Bean: Because what you do in an OBC is gonna be very different from what someone else does in an OBC. And that will then be the thing that some other 12 year old is.

[57:54] Joe Carroll: Yeah, they're trying to emulate.

[57:56] Shoshana Bean: When I was coming in, that there was there weren't a lot of pop musicals.

[57:59] Joe Carroll: Right.

[57:59] Shoshana Bean: And now it's like all there is. Only.

[58:02] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[58:02] Shoshana Bean: And ultimately the thing that they were trying to beat out of me in college was my pop sensibility. And every show I've done is because of my pop sensibility. So I just think it's so important for people to just, you know, take inspiration from other people for sure. I learn, you know, from other performers all the time. But emulate them or try to try to, you know, replicate what they're doing. No, you're robbing yourself of like and the world of like the experience of you. You know what I mean?

[58:31] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[58:33] Shoshana Bean: Um, but yeah, I think that that is so true. And I'm so glad to hear that about the heart opening. It's the most terrifying and the most important thing for so many reasons. And I also think once I learned to stop making this work about me and make it about other people, from the other people I'm on stage with to the people in the audience. It's not about how good I'm doing or what kind of a response I get or how much I'm getting paid, or you know, it's not about that. It's about what I'm here to give, how I can be of service. And once I shifted that, everything changed for me. Even in a situation where I'm sitting across the table from someone who intimidates me a little bit, or I'm a little nervous around, I just get out of myself and be like, what am I here to give this person today?

And that immediately in an audition room. Same thing. What you said. Walk into a room and change like F the part. Like whose heart can you crack open today? Whose life can you change today by singing a song? You don't know. You're there, their grandma could have rocked them to sleep singing that song. Like you, you know what I mean? You just never know who you can be for somebody. And whenever I'm in some type of zone where I'm insecure or doubting or nervous or whatever it is, I just have to get out of making it about me and make it about the other person or a bigger purpose. Does that make sense?

[59:54] Joe Carroll: Absolutely.

[59:55] Shoshana Bean: Yeah. In real life, for me, it has served me to just completely get out of my own thing and just be about how can I be here for you?

[1:00:02] Joe Carroll: Right.

[1:00:04] Shoshana Bean: How can I add value?

[1:00:04] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[1:00:04] Shoshana Bean: Yeah.

[1:00:08] Joe Carroll: Speaking of value, how you can add value for people. You have some shows coming up at 54 Below, right?

[1:00:16] Shoshana Bean: Speaking of speaking of value, you can add a segue. Um, yes, I have a couple shows at 54 Below at the end of August into the beginning of September. Um, yeah.

[1:00:25] Joe Carroll: That's exciting.

[1:00:28] Shoshana Bean: And you're gonna sing theater songs, right?

[1:00:29] Shoshana Bean: I'm going to sing all theater songs in a for the first time. Did you grow, did you listen to theater songs when you were a kid? Was there like the golden age American songbook in your house vibe? Or were you listening to soul music and just being a performer?

[1:00:45] Shoshana Bean: Um, I think the actual like purchasing of soundtracks was on an on a on a like case by case per like per need basis, like whatever show was gonna be coming up. Like, I don't think I ever went and like shopped the soundtracks at Tower Records, um, the way that I did the R&B section.

[1:01:01] Joe Carroll: Right.

[1:01:02] Shoshana Bean: But once I was in college and we had to, you know, source material, I would go to the library and check out like 20 soundtracks and just devour them and go back and check out 20 more or whatever the limit was.

[1:01:17] Joe Carroll: Right.

[1:01:17] Shoshana Bean: Um, yeah, but it's interesting because even in trying to choose the repertoire for these shows, I'm like, it's so much. And then when you like really go to the heart of like what you're trying to say or the story, you know, I don't know. We'll see. It's gonna be interesting. But I'll be singing boys' songs too, because there's boys' roles I want to play.

[1:01:36] Joe Carroll: Yeah, well, and uh all those stupid shows were written by men, so I find that not that they're stupid, but that it was just a different time, and uh they weren't writing the juicy material for women because they couldn't connect to it. And now it's so much better that women are writing women's stories because then the women playing them can actually connect to them.

[1:01:55] Shoshana Bean: Yeah.

[1:01:55] Joe Carroll: Although two of my favorite writers for women are men.

[1:01:59] Shoshana Bean: Who's that?

[1:02:00] Joe Carroll: Jason Robert Brown.

[1:02:01] Shoshana Bean: He writes for women like nobody I've ever, like, like nobody.

[1:02:05] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[1:02:05] Shoshana Bean: The way, yeah. I just I don't understand his ability. And uh Steven Schwartz.

[1:02:13] Joe Carroll: Yeah, fair.

[1:02:15] Shoshana Bean: Yeah.

[1:02:16] Joe Carroll: Those two.

[1:02:17] Shoshana Bean: Um, but yeah, it'll be exciting. Taking requests.

[1:02:21] Joe Carroll: Oh.

[1:02:23] Shoshana Bean: Um, yes, I'll be singing choose to be mine.

[1:02:26] Joe Carroll: Oh, good, good.

[1:02:28] Shoshana Bean: We've done this a lot, but what's your what's your advice for young actresses today?

[1:02:34] Shoshana Bean: Oh, I think the best things that we've said today that I can reiterate and that I think are the cornerstone is like vulnerability, as scary as it is, is the is the direct access and from the jump from the room to like to the stage is an honesty, a vulnerability, a truth in storytelling. I feel like people forget, as soon as they open their mouths to sing, they forget to tell the story.

[1:02:56] Joe Carroll: Right.

[1:02:57] Shoshana Bean: It's all about listening to themselves and how they sound, and they forget that they're still communicating. Right. Um, but I think that comes along with sort of like cracking your heart open and being vulnerable and pouring yourself into the material. And then the other thing is like the access to doing that is is a is a knowing and a confidence that like who you are is enough and who you are is like perfect. Um and I don't know how to fast track people to that. I think life just life. Everyone has a different some people get there real quick, and some people take a very long time to realize that they're their worth and and what is what is different and special about them.

[1:03:40] Joe Carroll: Right.

[1:03:40] Shoshana Bean: And uh, and to you know, to take constructive criticism and to constantly work on bettering yourself and your craft and your skill, but to know that like, you know, even if you never did any of that, you are enough.

[1:04:01] Joe Carroll: Right.

[1:04:01] Shoshana Bean: Write it down.

[1:04:02] Shoshana Bean: Damn.

[1:04:02] Joe Carroll: Got that, Dan?

[1:04:02] Joe Carroll: Damn, you are more than enough.

[1:04:05] Shoshana Bean: No, I don't know.

[1:04:06] Joe Carroll: Oh God, you know, that's this business, man.

[1:04:09] Shoshana Bean: It'll do that to you if you don't like you, that's no, it's just uh, yeah, it's it's the ebbs and flows are crazy. The highs are high and the lows are low. It's really wild.

[1:04:17] Joe Carroll: And it's hard when you're in a show for a while.

[1:04:20] Shoshana Bean: That's the other it it can be like a silent slow killer. You forget that you're capable of other things. You forget who you are because you're doing the same, right? You know.

[1:04:31] Joe Carroll: That's the thing that like acting class gives me that I that you know what I mean.

[1:04:35] Shoshana Bean: You're still in class.

[1:04:36] Joe Carroll: Yeah, just for you.

[1:04:37] Shoshana Bean: Oh well, I'm trying.

[1:04:39] Joe Carroll: You're doing trying.

[1:04:41] Shoshana Bean: You're doing.

[1:04:42] Joe Carroll: But that's important. Like, that's you know, for the podcast where we talk about doing eight shows a week. Um, that's that's part of it, is like finding your creativity elsewhere. Because as much as you think you're being an artist by doing eight shows a week, you're not, because you're doing the same thing. You know, I mean, you find access to new things inside of the show, but like you gotta, you gotta like hold it, like turn the soil over.

[1:05:05] Shoshana Bean: Yeah.

[1:05:06] Joe Carroll: And by taking class and doing all these other f amazing creative things that you do and that you do.

[1:05:11] Shoshana Bean: Yeah.

[1:05:11] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[1:05:13] Shoshana Bean: All right. Thank you so much. This is the four-hour long podcast.

[1:05:17] Joe Carroll: What?

[1:05:18] Shoshana Bean: No, this was I don't even have to cut a second of this.

[1:05:21] Joe Carroll: This is just perfect.

[1:05:22] Shoshana Bean: Oh my god, you have to cut things.

[1:05:23] Joe Carroll: No, no, no, no.

[1:05:24] Shoshana Bean: It's literally two hours long.

[1:05:25] Joe Carroll: It's uh an hour and one minute.

[1:05:27] Shoshana Bean: So you have to cut a minute.

[1:05:31] Joe Carroll: Okay, I love you. Thank you so much for coming on.

[1:05:33] Shoshana Bean: Of course.

[1:05:34] Joe Carroll: Until next time.

[1:05:35] Shoshana Bean: I'll be back next time for talking about eight shows the week and vocal health and yeah, we'll do a mental health with Shoshana Bean.

[1:05:41] Joe Carroll: Oh god. They'll be like, isn't she certifiable?

[1:05:55] Shoshana Bean: In all of us.

[1:05:57] Joe Carroll: No wizard that there is a wild.