This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Dan Tracy: I am recording.

[0:02] Joe Carroll: Me too.

[0:05] Dan Tracy: Um.

[0:07] Joe Carroll: Dan, you made a great audition tape this morning.

[0:10] Dan Tracy: I don't know what to do.

[0:11] Joe Carroll: I'm telling you, it was so good.

[0:15] Dan Tracy: I just have Joey as a hype man.

[0:18] Joe Carroll: Anyway, yeah, I'm your body. I'll talk about this in a second. Let's please pause. This week we're going to talk about the new open access policy for Actors Equity Association.

[0:29] Dan Tracy: You've probably heard people talking about it on the internet. I'm getting text messages from people saying what the hell is going on.

[0:35] Joe Carroll: Um, Matt, our social media expert has a bunch of questions. We were gonna have him on the show today, but he wasn't, he's not around. So he sent us a bunch of questions as a non-union actor, trying to figure out what the hell's going on. We're trying to figure out what the hell is going on. No one seems to know what the hell's going on, so we're gonna talk about it. Because we know your favorite thing is to hear uninformed opinions from two guys who like musicals.

[1:04] Dan Tracy: So an actor is saying his lines, and then out of nowhere, he just starts singing Symphony.

[1:20] Joe Carroll: Don't cry for me.

[1:31] Dan Tracy: So, you know, Dan and I spent almost every waking moment of every day together anyway, but this morning I got to read for Dan for an audition tape, and you were really frickin' good, buddy. It was really fun.

[1:43] Joe Carroll: You had to drown.

[1:44] Dan Tracy: Oh man, I was.

[1:45] Joe Carroll: How do you drown?

[1:46] Dan Tracy: How do you when you have to do a self-tape in your apartment for something that you really want, and the script says that you have to drown, like you know, which happens in water? Um, how do you do that? How do you do that in your living room or in your office in front of a blue backdrop with your iPhone recording you?

[2:08] Joe Carroll: Well, there is definitely no right answer, right? But you helped me because you said, look at the water rising.

[2:15] Dan Tracy: So you look at the water rising, and then I rose with the water as the water was rising, kind of went up to the top of the frame, and then like sucked my last breath of air before it worked. I almost passed out.

[2:29] Joe Carroll: You absolutely went for it, and then I, you know, because we're obviously not together, right? So I'm reading for you over FaceTime.

[2:36] Dan Tracy: Right.

[2:37] Joe Carroll: And so you get done, and then you buckled over, like you keeled over at the end, and I was like, I think he's dead. I was like, oh shit. Did he just die? Did he just pass out? Because he was pretending to pass out, and then he in fact passed out.

[2:53] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[2:53] Joe Carroll: Um, I had to do that. But it was really fun to craft, really fun.

[2:57] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[2:58] Joe Carroll: And I think it sucks. I heard I was in the mix for another job, so it's been a good week.

[3:03] Dan Tracy: Go.

[3:04] Joe Carroll: That's a really good week. That was a victory. Uh, Matt helped me with that audition, and it's for like a major sci-fi movie that films in another country.

[3:13] Dan Tracy: Love it.

[3:14] Joe Carroll: And you know that when you told me that, the first thing that I said to you was, Well, I know exactly which seat on which airline you're gonna be flying to the other country if you book this movie.

[3:26] Dan Tracy: Because, uh, as I'm obsessed with cameras, visuals, lighting, uh, equipment, gear.

[3:33] Joe Carroll: Dan is that obsessed with planes and travel.

[3:36] Dan Tracy: Yeah, with airplanes and travel and hotel points and hotels.

[3:39] Joe Carroll: And so you were like, This movie films in Asia, and I was like, Yep, and I know that you're gonna be on the, you know, the particular, you know, Qantas fucking first class.

[3:52] Dan Tracy: You know, we're talking about union protections. I learned that if you have to travel more than three hours, they have to fly you first class.

[4:01] Joe Carroll: Yes, they do. I was flown to Toronto, Joe was flown to Toronto, and I was bummed because Toronto is only an hour and a half away, so you didn't get to fly first class.

[4:08] Dan Tracy: It's still cool to, you know, when you start flying for work. It's like it's the main thing. I'm like super fancy. Going through the Toronto airport, like getting off my escalade, like you know, that they like order you or whatever to like that's really fancy.

[4:24] Joe Carroll: This is nice.

[4:24] Dan Tracy: This is texting my agents like I need more of this. Like, cool.

[4:27] Joe Carroll: Yes.

[4:29] Dan Tracy: Why are we doing Broadway?

[4:30] Joe Carroll: I don't know because I know musicals.

[4:33] Dan Tracy: I know we love musicals. Um, but I had a meeting with my manager and my agent like a year ago. This was before the pandemic, and they were like, what is your goal? Give me some career goals, you know, something we can strive towards.

[4:46] Joe Carroll: And I said, I want to fly in a first class seat for work.

[4:52] Dan Tracy: That was my career goal.

[4:54] Joe Carroll: They were like, Well, I mean, do you want to do like a and I was like, no, I don't care about what the project is. I just want to do something far away so that I have to fly in one of those seats that turns into a bed.

[5:06] Dan Tracy: You are a joke.

[5:08] Joe Carroll: I know, I know.

[5:10] Dan Tracy: So your real goal actually is like do a show in LA or in Vancouver.

[5:14] Joe Carroll: Exactly.

[5:14] Dan Tracy: I don't, yeah, in Europe, I guess.

[5:16] Joe Carroll: In Europe or in Asia. I saw that the current season of Umbrella Academy that Emmy Raver is on is filming, like in Friend of the Pod Barcelona?

[5:26] Dan Tracy: Oh, really?

[5:28] Joe Carroll: Because they filmed in Toronto.

[5:29] Dan Tracy: They did film in Toronto.

[5:30] Joe Carroll: She was in Toronto last year. But I saw a breakdowns coming out for it, and I think it's in Europe.

[5:35] Dan Tracy: Which is so cool.

[5:37] Joe Carroll: Must be doing some time traveling. Anyway, should we talk about the, so I'm actually really excited about this because we haven't had an episode for a while where like you and I just get to talk about something that's happening in the industry.

[5:51] Dan Tracy: Can we talk up for a second about Norbert Leo Butz?

[5:54] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[5:55] Dan Tracy: Was it not, I think it may have been the best episode that we've ever had.

[6:00] Joe Carroll: Well, I think that if we could go back to some of our older episodes, being better interviewers would help too. Like I think we've had some very special interviews on this show.

[6:13] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[6:14] Joe Carroll: But weren't quite as poised at how to have a fucking conversation.

[6:18] Dan Tracy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[6:19] Joe Carroll: You know, for the purposes of an audience. And, uh, plus also like just an awesome guy.

[6:29] Dan Tracy: Um, I just can't believe how generous he was with his time and with the time and with his ideas and yeah, and everything that he said. It was so inspiring.

[6:37] Joe Carroll: Um, and I think I really needed to hear it. And so if anybody hasn't heard it yet, go back and listen to last week's episode because my god, it was just to be honest with you, actually, I think that a lot of like I've the tapes I've done this week have been inspired by that interview.

[6:54] Dan Tracy: That's awesome.

[6:55] Joe Carroll: You know what I mean? Like I feel like I needed that too, to like keep pushing through and like remind ourselves what the hell this is actually about.

[7:05] Dan Tracy: Yeah.

[7:07] Joe Carroll: Um, totally. So let's talk about it. Let's talk about this Actors's Equity open access plan.

[7:11] Dan Tracy: So I'm gonna read some stuff for a second. So just so that we have all of the information that's available.

[7:19] Joe Carroll: Um, Actors's Equity has made a decision to expand eligibility for membership in an effort to increase diversity and inclusion, according to their statements, right?

[7:33] Dan Tracy: They're expanding eligibility to include any actor or stage manager who has quote worked professionally in the United States, meaning anyone who has made any money as an actor or a stage manager.

[7:49] Joe Carroll: Under the new policy, effective immediately, membership will no longer be limited to any of the old restraints.

[7:56] Dan Tracy: I think there were something like a certain number of weeks you had to work or a certain dollar amount of money you had to make. I don't remember exactly what it was.

[8:04] Joe Carroll: And forget about it.

[8:05] Dan Tracy: Yeah, it was, we, it was weeks. We, it was weeks' work. There was the equity membership candidate program, the EMC program that was the sort of longest way that somebody could go through earning eligibility for the union.

[8:18] Joe Carroll: It was something like 50, 51, 52 weeks—

[8:18] Dan Tracy: No, no, no, 20 weeks.

[8:24] Joe Carroll: Yeah, I think it was something like that.

[8:25] Dan Tracy: Yeah, like a half.

[8:26] Joe Carroll: And yeah, it was like 20 weeks of work. If you work 20 weeks in an equity house, then as a non-union person, then you are eligible to join the union.

[8:35] Dan Tracy: And otherwise you could just be given your equity card by doing a union, a big union show, doing a big offer Broadway show.

[8:45] Joe Carroll: Right.

[8:45] Dan Tracy: By being offered a union contract, which could happen to anyone.

[8:48] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[8:49] Dan Tracy: Um, but as far as kind of going about getting your membership yourself, it was a little bit more challenging. And now Kate Schindle has said in a statement that the old system had a significant flaw.

[9:04] Joe Carroll: It made the employers the gatekeepers of union membership.

[9:09] Dan Tracy: And that because those employers were often disproportionately white, that way that the union was organized could have inadvertently contributed to a systemic exclusion of BIPOC artists.

[9:35] Joe Carroll: Now one thing that I just want to mention briefly, and we talked about it on the show, but we haven't talked about it in a long time. This difference between, you know, being equity and non-equity when you join the union, um, if you join the union, what the different markets look like for professional actors.

[9:51] Dan Tracy: So, you know, our union is just like any union, it's collective bargaining, it's, you know, workplace protections, it's all of these things. But one of the things that's very interesting about I think theatrical work is the different markets where people can work, right? I mean, New York is obviously the sort of mothership, but Chicago, San Diego, Seattle, different places where actually there are, there's not a lot of union work.

[10:19] Joe Carroll: Right.

[10:19] Dan Tracy: So there, the choice to stay non-union in a lot of these smaller markets is a crucial decision that actors make, you know, to be able to sustain in some of these, you know, smaller markets.

[10:32] Joe Carroll: So this has a lot of ramifications and we, and it's a lot of wait and see, right? Like we don't know what this is gonna do. But basically giving everyone who's ever worked in the theater professionally, anyone who's ever been paid, giving them access to union membership is kind of the debate now like what do we think is gonna happen and so that's one of the things that we want to talk about today is just like questions from people, comments from people, um, and one of the ones that I wanted to start with do you, you do you have some there pulled up?

[11:02] Dan Tracy: I do, yeah. Um, because one that I wanted to, I wanted to just highlight um was uh, from a friend of ours who we went to college with who posts on Facebook and I'm just gonna, the last part of what she said was, um, the absolute hell that I went through in my 20s to become a member of the union took such a toll on me emotionally, financially and physically that it's honestly a miracle that I kept trying and I'm relieved that this very dysfunctional aspect of the system is changing.

[11:35] Joe Carroll: And that is something that I think for those of us like Dan, you got your card working at a theater, I got my card working at a theater and we have to acknowledge our privilege because in regional houses and across the country all of these shows were written for and usually by guys who look exactly like us. There's always roles for cis white men in all of these regional shows.

[12:00] Dan Tracy: I mean, you know, give me your umpteenth production of South Pacific, okay? The person who posted that on Facebook is an actor of color who just had to claw right contract after contract after contract, trying to work after graduating from college with debt and responsibilities and all of the other things to try to get your union card so that you can even go to the auditions for the Broadway shows.

[12:26] Dan Tracy: So you can go to the auditions for these national tours where you can actually make a living wage. And so to me, that is like the biggest part of this that I think is going to be a good thing. Like you don't have to claw and scrape and figure out how you're going to get into the union to then be able to work at a certain level to be able to pay your bills, which is already impossible in our industry anyway. I think it's going to be really great. I think that's totally like a positive look. That's like one side of the city. Is that you're going to have more, it's a supply and demand issue because you're going to have more jobs, or you're going to have the same amount of jobs and more people available for the jobs.

[13:21] Joe Carroll: Because the really the issue with union and non-union is that the union would like to create more union opportunities. We would like to have more union jobs. And so I think this is obviously my own opinion that the kind of true motivation for something like this would be if we can get as many people as possible into the union and remove that barrier, and more people join the union, then maybe there won't be as much talent that's non-union, and therefore producers won't have the option to do so, right? Taking a first national tour to have there be non-equity casts.

[14:01] Dan Tracy: Exactly. And non-equity shots, yeah. And obviously that doesn't work in regional markets. Like you said, a lot of these theaters don't have the ability to pay for the union contracts. And so then what? That's one of my big questions is like, so then what's the union gonna do about these regional theaters that can only afford four contracts because they can't post the health insurance bond? So there's still only going to be four contracts. But what about all those? What Dan's referring to is just that usually like if there's a show like let's take South Pacific, for example, if you're doing that at a regional theater in a smaller market, there may be the theater may be able to afford three, four, five equity contracts.

So the principals, you know, your Nelly's and your cables and, you know, Leah, whatever, are going to be equity members and everybody else is going to be non-union. That's how a ton of us got our starts. You know, you go to a regional theater and the leads have come in from New York or from Chicago, they've been on Broadway, whatever, and everybody else is non-union. And theaters can afford that.

[15:01] Joe Carroll: But now, if there's no non-union talent, and every single person in the cast has to be union, and like Dan said, the theaters can't afford to pay for those for those for the health insurance bond, you know, there's a huge bond that is paid to the union every time that they have a union contract. Like, will regional theaters close? Will, like, what are the ramifications there? Right. And the question of when is the right time for you to join the union is still at the heart of all of this, because I think that, you know, just to speak from personal experience, I didn't get cast in union summer theaters and was really bummed that I had that in my way, or I didn't have that privilege that some of my other classmates did.

But if that hadn't happened, I never would have gotten American Idiot. And American Idiot, you could draw a straight line between everything I've ever done and American Idiot in most cases. Like it really did pave the way for me to be where I am now. And it was a non-union contract.

[16:05] Dan Tracy: Matt is the same way. Our social media intern just did the non-union Bandstand tour. He's still non-union. And for him, you know, the non-union work can be a great way to build your resume because there's that barrier of entry that the union members suddenly can't take these roles. So here's an opportunity for someone who may have gotten left out. It's super complicated. It's a super complicated idea. And that's why I think a lot of people on social media are pulling on like this is a money grab. This is an opportunity for you to grow your membership and collect, you know, another thousand dollars per head for initiation fees. And I mean, that's not totally untrue. And it's not, it's also not a bad thing to try and grow the membership and try and weed out how much non-union work there is and try and create more union work, but the money still has to come from somewhere. So it's a really complicated idea.

[17:11] Joe Carroll: Yeah. And I don't know, I'm certainly, you know, because Dan and I are experts. I'm certainly not an expert on, you know, collective bargaining and unions in any sense of the word, even though I'm a member of like four of them now, with, you know, between the musicians' union and SAG-AFTRA and Actors Equity, where to me, more collective bargaining is good. More people, the actors' unions in general are weak. We don't have a lot of, there's not a lot to stand on. And the other unions don't back us up, the local ones and IATSE and, you know, which are the unions for the crew, like Teamsters and stuff like that. That if it feels kind of isolating when you like go up to bat against a big powerful producer, and you know, there was a producer, you know, producers who remain nameless, who it was like who said at a meeting with the producers league around the time that they were trying to up the minimums that Actors Equity was trying to up the Broadway production minimum, where this producer screamed at the top of his lungs like actors are buying homes.

And he was so, he was so like, you know, just, you know how disgusting that an actor on a chorus contract could afford to buy a home. I mean, that's kind of how we're treated and how we continue to be treated by these people who just view us as dollar signs. And so for me, it's like more of that, more people coming together and demanding a living wage and demanding better health insurance is only, it can only help.

[18:54] Dan Tracy: We don't have on stage SAG-AFTRA is a fairly strong union, in my opinion, mainly because of its, the movie stars, because of the people, I mean, you know, you're, you know, you don't have DiCaprio on the same contract, yeah. Exactly. His dues, his 2%, 3% of his hundreds of millions are going to, you know, pay the salary of the lawyer who's going to bat for me and Dan in collective bargaining. And not only that, and I'm 99% sure that this is true, but I want to just double check it, that SAG-AFTRA covers all broadcast journalism, journalism, um as well so Lester Holt's contract is also helping pay the salary of the lawyer who's going to fight for me. Actors Equity doesn't have that. Even Hugh Jackman, you know, Bette Midler making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, that is not going to make a huge difference in my opinion when a big bad lawyer from the Producers League says to a moderately big bad lawyer from Actors Equity that like no you cannot have a 3% increase, you know, on the minimum contract on Broadway because of inflation or whatever, whatever it ends up being that it's spooky.

So now if there's just more membership, if there's more people and everybody's coming to the table, I just don't see how it's a bad thing. But that being said, there is something to diluting membership with just more people and the same amount of jobs like you said. And yeah, so I think it's too early to tell but I do think I feel like it's going to be a good thing. I feel like it's going to only strengthen our ranks.

[20:42] Joe Carroll: Yeah, I just think like it's also for anyone listening who's not union and negotiating that part of their career, I think the question of when you join still is very important. Just because you can join doesn't mean you should, um, and based on the work that's currently available because you will put yourself, like you kind of need a resume to stand on before you say okay now I'm making this step into the union. Right. Or else you risk, you know, basically not working, which happened to some people that we went to school with who had a bunch of roles in school and they took their card immediately and then when they graduated they couldn't get any jobs.

[21:27] Dan Tracy: Right. And that's a multifaceted issue but I bet that some of those people would have had more jobs if they were non-union.

[21:36] Joe Carroll: Yeah. So, you know, I do think that I think that it's, like you said, the other side of the coin is that people are saying that it's a money grab disguised as, you know, a diversity equity stance that is like real dicey. I I'm actually surprised that that language was included because that's like, that's positioning yourself as like a white savior. I just, and yikes is true. I will say that it is, it is true this is tricky. Because it is true. It is true that like the barrier to entry is steeped in white supremacy and is steeped in the idea that you have to go work in a show that was written by white people for white people and cast by white people, produced by paycheck funded by white people.

You're pay, you know, that all of that is there and you have to go into their houses and do their shows to get enough weeks to join a union that is run by and for, uh, for white people. I, I, that's true. It is, it is a hundred percent true. And so then, you know, all of a sudden that, you know, some theater, you know, the Muni is going to do Dreamgirls once every five years, and now, you know, actors of color are gonna, how do you join a union? How do you, how do you gain access to that? So that's true. But in the same way, it's like don't do the white savior thing. Don't say that, you know what I'm saying? Just say that you're doing it. Just say that you're, we're open access. Here are some problems that we realize that we're trying to solve, as opposed to like, I don't know.

They could have used language which positioned themselves as without specifically creating the narrative that they're saviors, they could have used similar language to communicate the idea that like the barrier for entry was a challenge for, you know, underrepresented position people or something. Which maybe still would because, you know, this is all just like headlines getting pulled, too.

[23:59] Dan Tracy: Like the deadline headlines like making access but more available for BIPOC individuals.

[24:04] Joe Carroll: It's like that's not totally what they said either, but they kind of said that.

[24:08] Dan Tracy: So let's talk about some of Matt's questions here.

[24:11] Joe Carroll: We're getting long.

[24:13] Dan Tracy: Classic us.

[24:15] Joe Carroll: Classic, classic.

[24:17] Dan Tracy: We were gonna keep this a tight 30, and we're already at 30, so uh here we are.

[24:21] Joe Carroll: So Matt's first question was as a union member, as an equity actor, the union provides protections and benefits. What are some of those benefits and protections that you have year round on an equity contract?

[24:35] Dan Tracy: Um it's an interesting question because you it's it's contract by contract. Like there's not very much that you are given or that you have when you are not working as an equity member. At least it feels that way. Well, like you you think one of the big ones is the kind of open access to auditions. So there are these open auditions that happen that are required for almost all contracts that are union contracts that require the casting director have auditions, which is an opportunity for some people to get seen that might not have been seen. Great example is Joe Carroll being in Romeo and Juliet. He went to the open audition of that, and then he had to earn the job after that. But I've definitely gotten myself in front of some casting directors who I may not have seen as often because I was union, and I got to get in front of them.

So that's one. And then the other would just be kind of the general um like you them looking out for you if anything happens, if you have an issue, if you have conflicts, uh if something happens at an audition, you know, you just kind of the general basically like an actor's HR department.

[25:44] Joe Carroll: Well, yeah, kind of I guess I would say that's a good thing.

[25:51] Dan Tracy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um and then and then I think the big one is is and maybe he has this question down the down the road, but um, but access to health insurance is is huge, and there there you know, there's a lot of debate in the union about that. I mean, you you now you have to work a certain amount of weeks. Right. Let's the weeks worked, then um I forget the exact number right now, but I think it's like 20 or 21 for a year's worth of coverage, it's eleven for six months of coverage, um, which was huge during the pandemic because guess how much theater was happening during the pandemic and how many equity contracts there were? So all of us lost our health insurance. And um, so that's one of the things where I say, like, you know, I grumble about it, but it's like not very much because it's like, well, actually, if you don't they they support you when you're working.

[26:41] Joe Carroll: Right. And that's kind of hard, you know, like like it's you know, when you're when you're not working, the auditions are huge.

[26:47] Dan Tracy: You're a hundred percent right. People deaf that that's that's a big one. Um the health insurance is hard. And and that there's the potential for that, that and I think the next question is the is about this. Um with the open access plan allowing a large number of people to join the union, how will these open auditions, which are called EPAs or ECCs, be affected? An EPA is an equity principal audition and an ECC is an equity chorus call. How will those things be affected?

[27:14] Joe Carroll: I feel like overcrowding's already an issue, and this feels like it'll only make it worse.

[27:19] Dan Tracy: Yes, that is true. A lot of the uh lines for these auditions are down the street and around the corner, especially the ECCs, because for EPAs, they set up a system, uh a digital system a few years ago where you could sign up beforehand, and they've been known to sell out in ten minutes. So it's something like a week before the call is about to happen, they release the positions that you could sign up, and you sign up and you know, they sell out in ten minutes refreshing.

[27:52] Joe Carroll: One of the controversies with that was how ageist is that policy. Because now like, I mean, if you're if you're a if you're grew up in the in the era of pre-computers, you know, and you're like, wait a minute, now I have to now I have to go on and you know, we we can figure that out. I mean, I'm the boomer of the group, but like, and I still don't really freaking know how to use it. So it's like, you know, you can't imagine, you know, if you're in 50, 60, 70 years old trying to like, you know, operate this new EPA ECC system.

[28:20] Dan Tracy: I that is that's a totally valid thing. It will get worse. Overcrowding is already an issue. They're gonna have to make they're gonna have to have more, which is a casting, that's like something the casting directors are gonna have they're gonna have to have more EPAs and ECCs. I think when casting directors are gonna have to, you know, agree to that. Producers are gonna have to agree to that. Um so I think that that like that's kind of like all will be revealed in the next couple years because there have not been any in-person auditions right in a year and a half. So we'll see.

[28:50] Joe Carroll: Um this is a question. His next question here about non ek tours and theaters. Um he says, he do you think that non ec theaters and tours are going to change or improve their policies to keep actors from joining equity and leaving their non ek gigs? Limiting yourself to equity work cuts out a lot of opportunity, but the current state of non ek pay and conditions is often not sustainable.

[29:10] Dan Tracy: I this is something that I've wondered, like I remember in college, Dan when we learned about um like George M. Cohen was like, you know, sort of famously very anti-providence's finest.

[29:24] Joe Carroll: Right, right.

[29:25] Dan Tracy: Yeah. Me and George M. Cohan grew up on the same street. Co red socks. Why'd you want to play college hockey?

[29:37] Joe Carroll: Um Miracle on Ice the musical.

[29:40] Dan Tracy: Honestly, let's let's wrap we just watched that. Me and you and Ryan McCartan. I'm I'm too, I'm too, we're both too old.

[29:47] Joe Carroll: No.

[29:47] Dan Tracy: To play to play to play to play 21 year olds playing a hockey. Look at this face.

[29:52] Joe Carroll: Okay, well, listen, I'm gonna hang on. Don't look at my face.

[29:55] Dan Tracy: Okay, great. Don't look at my face.

[29:57] Joe Carroll: Okay. Um, okay. So this is a this is a question that I have, and this is the sort of like anti-union argument. You know, the Amazon argument, which is just like we treat our, you know, we quote, treat our our employees really well and incentivize them to not join unions. Um and so I wonder. I just wonder I mean, like George M. Cohan wouldn't was was anti actors equity um back in the day, paid his paid his people. He was like, you know, producer, writer, star, all the things, and paid his people really, really well. And or so he said or whatever. He paid them fine, but he basically didn't he didn't give them any um breaks like they were working all day every day, and he's like, Well, they love it and they're happy here, like, you know.

[30:44] Dan Tracy: Yeah. Yeah. So I just wonder, like, if someplace like, I don't know, pick your theater, the like somewhere really famo it'd have to be somewhere really famous. Like the Muni says we're not we're only doing non union shows. But if you want to come here, we're gonna pay you. Well, you know, it's five thousand dollars a week.

[31:05] Joe Carroll: Yeah. I mean, I saw you know I saw um one of the non equity national tours that's going out. I I believe it's uh I I I won't even quote what show it's from because I don't know if I'm supposed to know this information, but uh they're paying like twelve hundred dollars a week. Plus uh whatever there was like some per diem. It was like a forty dollar a day per diem. That's well, significantly more money than we made on American Idiot, which was almost it was almost ten years ago. Oh my god. It was eight years ago or something.

[31:36] Dan Tracy: So I guess like that might be chasing. And you can play a college hockey player.

[31:42] Joe Carroll: Shut up, child. So, you know, there's an argument to be made there because the producers can save there's a lot of headaches that can be saved by work being non-union. It's why it happens.

[31:54] Dan Tracy: I mean You know what? I just I had this flash. You know what's gonna really hold like if it blow this this up? If we had like a Medicare for All universal healthcare system in this country that was truly like sustainable for all people, like you know, Canada or the United Kingdom, I wonder how strong actors equity would actually be.

[32:16] Joe Carroll: That's exactly it. I think that a lot of people join it just because they're like, oh my god, I need I need my I get my health insurance through my union. So what happens if like if I can get my health care elsewhere? I think a lot of people are gonna quit going to do jobs that they don't want to do.

[32:34] Dan Tracy: Yeah. I mean, I have had this experience so many times with like sad older actors who are out in some place doing a show they don't want to do because they need the insurance weeks.

[32:47] Joe Carroll: Right, right, right, right. And you wouldn't see that as much. So yeah, that's for sure. Um but yeah, I I don't the thing about like uh something being non-union is that no, why would the conditions or pay get any better? Because that's the whole thing.

[33:08] Dan Tracy: I got a question for you. If now with this new plan, would you have done anything differently? You're coming out of college right now. You're coming out of college in, you know, 2021.

[33:19] Joe Carroll: Yes, I would have.

[33:20] Dan Tracy: What would you do differently?

[33:21] Joe Carroll: I would have joined immediately.

[33:22] Dan Tracy: And I think it would have been the wrong decision.

[33:24] Joe Carroll: Because at the time I was uh watching classmates like booking Broadway shows. My best friend was in getting ready to do his second Broadway show, and I was itching, and I was I was catering and I was like, this is BS. I want to get seen and I want to get a job, but I wasn't ready. And I look back now and realize that yes, to an extent, I was ready. My agent ended up having to fight for me to get the contract, but that's a that's a long, longer story. The access to auditions stuff does change the game a little bit.

[34:03] Dan Tracy: Matt's next question was when you joined the union, did you feel a difference between being non-union or being union?

[34:10] Joe Carroll: And the answer is no. The only thing that changed is that you're able to go into those open auditions.

[34:19] Dan Tracy: Yeah. Whereas when you were non union, I had to sit in a basically we sat like in a closet at the old union building, or they didn't let you in. You had to sit in a non union area, and then they would come get you if you were given the privilege to perform that day for that audition or whatever.

[34:41] Joe Carroll: Right, right. And that's brutal.

[34:42] Dan Tracy: That's the only difference. I I somebody said this to me once that it it's the difference between like for guys like us, like you, for example, the the this was used as an example to me back in the day. It was like once you take your equity card, once you join the union, now you are competing for roles against Aaron Tveit.

[35:07] Joe Carroll: Yes.

[35:08] Dan Tracy: And you're both going to go in and you're both going to do your thing. So if you feel like you can compete at that level, go for it. If you feel like you might need a little bit of time, then maybe wait. And that like that leap, I felt that leap. I felt like all of a sudden, now I'm going in for things, and Jeremy Jordan's walking out as I walk in a couple times. And like, I'm like, fucking kill kill me. Like I can't like I, you know, hearing the guy sing before you and you, and it's like you just want to you want to throw yourself off a bridge. So that is still true, and I think that that will still be true because I think that producers will still try to send out non-equity tours, and they'll still try to do there will still be non-union work all over the place.

[35:58] Dan Tracy: But there will be that thing where it's like, okay, if you want to like, you know, you want to play in the major leagues, like be ready.

[35:58] Joe Carroll: Right.

[35:58] Dan Tracy: You know.

[36:09] Joe Carroll: So Matt says, uh, do you think it's smart for a non-union actor to jump in and join the union now that they can, or should they wait, or is it a case-by-case situation?

[36:19] Dan Tracy: And I think it kind of leading off of what you were just saying, it's totally a case-by-case situation. I don't think it's cut and dry, and I think that if you don't have a portfolio of work and a network of people that know your work, yeah, then the joining the union thing is dicey because it does limit the amount of work that you can take in other markets that aren't New York.

[36:53] Joe Carroll: Right.

[36:54] Dan Tracy: Right, right. Um, because when you talk about like I just keep thinking about all of the people you met and all of the connections that you had off of that non-equity American Idiot tour.

[37:03] Joe Carroll: Oh my God.

[37:05] Dan Tracy: That now half of the guests of the podcast.

[37:08] Joe Carroll: Yeah, right, exactly. Like things would have worked out and it would have been different, like as opposed to going on that tour, like your life would have just gone in a different direction, and you know, you know on the long road to the middle.

[37:20] Dan Tracy: Right. Like, but I think that it's really like almost everybody that I've that I ever talked to about that first some of those early non-equity jobs, the jobs in college, the jobs right out of college, gaining those like it can be invaluable. So I think that I would wait until the dust settles because I want to see what happens with tours and I want to see how theaters respond. Like what is now if you wait to get your equity card, you may be like one of the people, you may be one of the best non-union people that's chilling. You know, if everybody just jumps in right now and you know, you may have a great opportunity to take out the second or third national tour of something that, you know, I don't know. I don't know. I'd wait. I would just wait and see how the do like see what happens with all this stuff.

[38:13] Joe Carroll: Yeah. You know. Especially since there aren't any in-person auditions that do EPAs and ECCs for anyway.

[38:19] Dan Tracy: Right. Just kind of wait and see what happens. I think it's gonna be it could be and and is possibly very great for a lot of people. And um, I certainly think that removing archaic barriers of entry is something that I'm for. I just also think that there are ramifications to joining the union that you have to be aware of. Um, and I think that you know, I've I've seen now on the internet a few times like EMC members who are older than us who still aren't in the union, right? Who are now like, okay, so now what do I do? And I don't know the right answer for those people. But if you're just out of school and wondering what to do, I think that is more of like a you need to really think about that. Because um, yeah, it's a big decision.

[39:11] Joe Carroll: And I think on a macro thing, uh I just wanted to to point out something that uh Alex and I were talking about earlier, sort of like this has the potential to do a lot of to do to be a huge it's a huge deal. But the stories that are being told need to change. The we had all of like the access people need access to the theater, the people that make decisions need to change, the systemic nature of why marginalized communities have not been able to gain access to the union, that needs to change, and that happens with producers, that happens with writers, that happens with, you know, sort of I don't want to say from the top down because you know, trickle-down economics doesn't work, but the idea that that stories, the stories need to change. If the stories change, then the people who are in them change, then the membership's gonna change almost naturally and it's going to be more accessible and more equitable naturally.

[40:13] Dan Tracy: Right. Right now, so like what is the Producers League doing? What are the what's the casting associ uh Society of America doing? Like, what are the changes that they're making to have there be more stories that are told?

[40:26] Joe Carroll: Mm-hmm.

[40:27] Dan Tracy: Because now you're just giving more access to the same stories. You're just giving more access to the South Pacifics.

[40:31] Joe Carroll: Right.

[40:34] Dan Tracy: And the Brigadoons. Right. And shit. And it's like, okay, well, that's not gonna do anything.

[40:39] Joe Carroll: Right.

[40:40] Dan Tracy: You know what I'm saying?

[40:41] Joe Carroll: Yeah. I totally know what you're saying.

[40:43] Dan Tracy: Um, the opportunities like what shows are they doing? These people are these people what the you know, they're joining the the union to, you know, to go to be able to have access to do Dream Girls once every five years. The w like you know what I'm saying? Like those communities. But you see what I mean. Where it's like I totally know what you're saying. You know, where it's like it's like that's why like the the the quote that I used at the top of the show was like, yeah, our friend who was uh was brilliant never saw there were never roles for her in those shows from a traditional standpoint. You know, now, oh okay, well now like we're opening up the storytelling and that's good, but those stories need to change.

[41:29] Joe Carroll: Right.

[41:30] Dan Tracy: And that's just that's systemic. That's where it's like, anyway, okay, rant over, but I'm with you.

[41:37] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[41:38] Dan Tracy: I'm with you. I think it's a really interesting moment. Um when I read I was on the golf course, I've I've played a lot of golf in the last two weeks.

[41:47] Joe Carroll: And um when when Julie's away, Dan plays golf, spending everyone's like the degenerate he has every dime he has and a lot of dimes he doesn't have playing golf.

[41:57] Dan Tracy: Um, I I saw this graphic from the union that said, you know, open access, and I was hoping it was open access for health insurance. When I saw open access, I was like, Oh, because I I don't know anything about, you know, health insurance pools or the medical system is incredibly complicated, even for people who work in it to explain or understand.

[42:20] Joe Carroll: I actually I actually really understand it. Let me take you through the medical system.

[42:24] Dan Tracy: Jesus Christ. So when I saw that I learned I learned what a deductible was like two weeks ago. Um, because what I've always hoped is that any person in Actors Equity would be able to buy into the health insurance plan, even if it meant it costing, you know, it's actually a very affordable health insurance plan and it's very good insurance, but they take a lot of our money while we're working. But when you're not working and you still have your health insurance, it's really nice because it's very affordable. But I'm thinking like, well, can we ch can we figure out a way if we build the membership out like this might do for everybody to then be able to buy into some kind of collective pool for health insurance and make that not about how much you work because like so you're Alex Fink and you're you're uh coming out of the pandemic or you're in any time, right?

And you decide to have a baby, and then you have a baby, that's nine months. There's a certain amount of time that you can't work while you're pregnant, but then there's also probably time that you don't want to work after you're pregnant, and then what you lose your health insurance?

[43:38] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[43:39] Dan Tracy: Yeah. Yeah. When I try when I explain that to people, they're like, what?

[43:44] Joe Carroll: Yeah, right.

[43:45] Dan Tracy: Yeah. So you have to you have to book a Broadway show and then decide to have a baby, and then like with a certain amount of time left in the show, because you have to make sure that you get the insurance for a year, and then you have to hope that they'll either take you back at the end.

[43:58] Joe Carroll: Right.

[43:58] Dan Tracy: Or you have to run right back to work with a two-month-old baby. It's like what?

[44:03] Joe Carroll: Yeah.

[44:04] Dan Tracy: And that kid is basically covered almost through Cobra. Like the kid it's like $13,000, $14,000, $15,000 a year to cover a child. There's no such thing as like a dependent. Dependents are absolute disgrace. There is no dependent.

[44:17] Joe Carroll: Well, have I taught I told this story on on this podcast about a asking the former president of of Actors Equity about this when we were seniors in college. I'll just tell this Alan Eisenberg. I'll just very very quickly senior year of college. The former president of equity at Alan Eisenberg came to Michigan to do a QA. And everybody's asking questions, whatever. And I was like, So what's the uh y talk us through the health plan or whatever. You know, can you tell you know how do we sign up for healthcare or whatever? And I was like, Well, what do you do for families? Like what how do you how how are families covered through actors equity? And he said, and I quote, We don't do that. That was it. And I was like, You don't he's like, We don't have an option for that. Individuals are covered, families are not. And I was like, and I was like, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. I guess I'll deal with that when I'm 31.

[45:13] Dan Tracy: It's insane. It's completely insane. So like there's so many issues around this organization and what we do and the theater and blah blah blah. That like I'm just like, maybe this will be the answer to some of the healthcare problems if there are more people because you're gonna assume more people pay in dues. More people paying into a healthcare system, more people like more young people joining, more.

[45:41] Joe Carroll: Yeah, because the health insurance costs for the actual fund for for young people. It's like we don't go to the doctor as much, like less expensive.

[45:49] Dan Tracy: Yeah. Well, this was this has been a fascinating. This has been like watching Paint Draw, probably listening to Paint Dry, talking about the intricacies of the city.

[45:57] Joe Carroll: If you're one of the five people who found this valuable, send us a DMs. Please, God send us a DM.

[46:03] Dan Tracy: The best we'll end this right now, but Dan but he Matt had one more question that I do think is really important. Um, and uh he asked Um if who would win in a fight? Joe dressed up as Captain America or Dan dressed up as Han Solo.

[46:22] Joe Carroll: So I think the answer is obvious.

[46:25] Dan Tracy: It's gotta be. I got the shield. I mean, what do you talk about? What do you want to do? It doesn't matter who I'm dressed up. Dan wins the fight. Here's why. Joe had assists.

[46:36] Joe Carroll: That's all the time we are today.

[46:38] Dan Tracy: Is a sissy.

[46:39] Joe Carroll: Okay.

[46:39] Dan Tracy: Dan grew up with brothers. Dan has had too many concussions from getting in fights already. And Joe just is too much of a nice guy, right? We've already decided that Dan is the potential serial killer on this show, so he would win the fight.

[46:53] Joe Carroll: That's fine.

[46:54] Dan Tracy: That's fine. Doesn't matter who I'm dressed up as. Well, listen, if we did get in this fight, the good news is we couldn't go to the hospital afterwards.

[47:03] Joe Carroll: So thank you for listening to Guys Who Like Musicals.

[47:13] Dan Tracy: We are now part of the Broadway Podcast Network.

[47:17] Joe Carroll: Woo!

[47:17] Dan Tracy: We are hosted by Dan Tracy. That's you.

[47:20] Joe Carroll: And Joe Carroll. That's me.

[47:21] Dan Tracy: We're produced by Ryan Kincaid, and Matthew Mucha is the social content manager. You can find us on Instagram at Guys Who Like Musicals, on Twitter at MusicalGuys, or the old fashioned way at www.guysholike musicals.com. If you'd like a chance to be featured on the Ask the Guys segment of our show, please call 203 900 7990 and leave a message with your question. As always, thanks for listening.