This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Jeff Malone: Welcome to Half Hour with Jeff and Richie, the podcast where we explore the latest shows we see, sharing our insights and opinions on the performances, storylines, and everything in between.

[0:09] Richie Grasso: In today's episode, we're discussing the off-Broadway production of "Show/Boat: A River," playing at NYU Skirball.

[0:16] Jeff Malone: Whether you cannot catch the show in person or you want to expand your thoughts after seeing it, this episode is for you.

[0:21] Richie Grasso: And as always, we want to inform you that this episode will contain spoilers.

[0:25] Jeff Malone: So if you're ready to dive into this production, stick around with us.

[0:27] Jeff Malone: I'm Jeff.

[0:28] Richie Grasso: And I'm Richie, and we're thrilled to be your hosts for today's episode.

[0:31] Jeff Malone: But before we start the conversation about "Show/Boat: A River," here's a few words from our advertisers.

[0:38] Richie Grasso: Welcome everyone to a new episode of Half Hour with Jeff and Richie.

[0:41] Jeff Malone: Today we're discussing "Show/Boat: A River."

[0:45] Richie Grasso: Obie Award-winning Target Margin Theater, in collaboration with NYU Skirball, presents a daring reimagining of the seminal musical "SHOW/BOAT," now re-envisioned as "Show/Boat: A River."

[0:57] Jeff Malone: This bold adaptation reframes the 1927 classic for today's audience, exploring America's transformation from the 1880s through the Jazz Age, journeying from steamboats to airplanes, vaudeville to radio, and the Spanish Moss South to the bustling city of Chicago amid the Great Migration.

[0:57] Richie Grasso: "SHOW/BOAT" is both a powerful narrative and historical reflection, revealing a legacy marked by violent racism while striving for a more just America.

[1:21] Jeff Malone: Director David Herskovitz, known for his provocative interpretations, brings a fresh perspective to this quintessentially American masterpiece.

[1:29] Richie Grasso: Building on Target Margin's renowned tradition of re-envisioning classic works, this new staging promises the company's trademark extravagant theatricality, intricate design layers, and a vibrant celebration of language, song, and spirit.

[1:41] Jeff Malone: "Show/Boat: A River" challenges us to confront our past and envision a reimagined America for 2025, bridging the gap between history and the present with striking relevance.

[1:52] Richie Grasso: So let's start with our hot take on "Show/Boat: A River."

[1:56] Jeff Malone: All right, I'm gonna go with my hot take first. I think "Show/Boat: A River" does some really good things that root itself in the mission of reinventing the classic.

[2:07] Richie Grasso: And while it's growing its legs to potentially expand and maybe move forward, I don't quite think this production got exactly where I wanted it to yet.

[2:17] Jeff Malone: It feels like a work in progress, and it feels like something that's gonna get there eventually. But this was a good stepping stone start for the first production, I think, of something like this for this show.

[2:27] Richie Grasso: I do agree. I felt that this reimagining of the classic musical "SHOW/BOAT" laid the groundwork for potentially a reimagined hit.

[2:36] Jeff Malone: Um, though it definitely could benefit from further workshopping to fully realize, like to a fully realized vision.

[2:45] Richie Grasso: So let's get into it. Well, when we talk about this, you know, "SHOW/BOAT" is a classic show. And you and I have never really seen this show, and we know the music.

[2:54] Jeff Malone: Yeah, it's um, arguably the first musical. You know, people will say that there's healthy debates between what was the first musical, "Oklahoma!" or "SHOW/BOAT."

[3:02] Richie Grasso: Those are like the arguments in a way. And there's even others that get forgotten in the shuffle.

[3:06] Jeff Malone: But I think from a theater history perspective, "SHOW/BOAT" was the first time we took musical theater as an art form seriously with plot and scenes and music.

[3:15] Richie Grasso: Yeah.

[3:16] Jeff Malone: Because before that it was opera and operetta and plays, and then musical theater emerged. And we're talking about today's 2025; this was 1927.

[3:24] Richie Grasso: So we're almost a hundred years in musical theater, which is kind of exciting to think that we're hitting the 100-year mark of this art form.

[3:31] Jeff Malone: Um, you would think with all the musicals in the world that this has been around for like thousands of years, and it hasn't.

[3:36] Richie Grasso: Um, so I think "SHOW/BOAT" always has had the racism, the segregation, the class structures, the music, the costumes, the sea, the boat, everything, right?

[3:48] Jeff Malone: There's always been that. So I think to deconstruct it makes sense.

[3:53] Richie Grasso: We are on a trend right now. We could talk about this more at the end, but we are on this wild boat ride, I guess we could say for the pun here, of taking a classic and reinventing it.

[4:04] Jeff Malone: "Sunset Boulevard" did it.

[4:06] Richie Grasso: It's working.

[4:07] Jeff Malone: "Oklahoma!" did it; it worked.

[4:09] Richie Grasso: "West Side Story" did it.

[4:12] Jeff Malone: I think it worked for some, not for others.

[4:14] Richie Grasso: So it's working in that way. Those are three examples of complete—I'm talking about deconstruct, gut it like a fish, flip it on its head, throw it back in and work.

[4:26] Jeff Malone: That's what we're doing with this. It's not like, "Oh, well, she wore blue in the original Broadway production; I think she should wear red now."

[4:30] Richie Grasso: We're not talking about that. We're talking about really breaking this down.

[4:36] Jeff Malone: And for—and I will say that it's brave for the estates to allow this, and it's brave for these directors and music directors and producers and cast to dive in headfirst and say we're gonna do it.

[4:49] Richie Grasso: We're gonna take something and try it.

[4:51] Jeff Malone: So I will say that there's a lot of respect that I have for people who do this because I would love to be doing this one day.

[4:57] Richie Grasso: Because I look at the classics and I say, "Wait, what if we did it like that?"

[4:59] Jeff Malone: Yeah.

[5:00] Richie Grasso: So it's very brave, and I will—I just want to say that even though I don't think this is quite where it needs to be yet, I think it's really, really brave to take the most epic show of "SHOW/BOAT" and say we're gonna flip it on its head.

[5:12] Jeff Malone: Why not? I mean, this show's almost public domain, right?

[5:13] Richie Grasso: It is not yet.

[5:17] Jeff Malone: Almost.

[5:18] Richie Grasso: Um, it could be very soon.

[5:19] Jeff Malone: Yeah, it's almost.

[5:20] Richie Grasso: Oh, yeah.

[5:21] Jeff Malone: So I look at something like this, and I kind of want to get down into what they actually are breaking down and what is working.

[5:29] Richie Grasso: So, what do you feel like is actually working in the piece versus like what needed more vision?

[5:34] Jeff Malone: What's working is—and usually I'm someone who doesn't say this because when the "Sunset" revival came, they kept all those full orchestrations.

[5:42] Richie Grasso: "Oklahoma!" changed the orchestrations, and it worked.

[5:45] Jeff Malone: The orchestrations were changed here, and it worked.

[5:48] Richie Grasso: Because I felt like what stayed true was those lavish songs.

[5:53] Jeff Malone: The music didn't seem like half-assed or sort of like cut, chopped up.

[5:58] Richie Grasso: It seemed like they were gonna keep "Make Believe," they were gonna keep "Old Man River," they were gonna keep "Can't Help Lovin' That Man."

[6:01] Jeff Malone: They were gonna keep full pieces of music. That worked.

[6:07] Richie Grasso: Plot worked.

[6:09] Jeff Malone: I thought the sashes that said "white" on them and the scrim that had the openings that said "white" and "black," that was very effective to me.

[6:17] Richie Grasso: And allowed me to realize the colorblind casting of this cast of sorts, in a way, to say, "Okay, we're gonna put black actors with white sashes. We'll put white actors with black sashes."

[6:29] Jeff Malone: It was the—I don't want to say colorblind because it was obviously intentionally cast for certain reasons.

[6:35] Richie Grasso: I'm saying from the perspective of the race of the character came down to the sash they were wearing and the character in that moment, and allowed me as the audience to say, "Oh, there's four white people," even though they're maybe not all white.

[6:47] Jeff Malone: Their sash says they're white people, and now I understand what the scene is talking about here.

[6:51] Richie Grasso: It drew focus on the race, which was really, really important here.

[6:55] Jeff Malone: And so I think they got that right.

[6:58] Richie Grasso: I think they got the plot staying true.

[7:01] Jeff Malone: Um, to me, there were some directorial choices that I'm not sure quite worked.

[7:05] Richie Grasso: It seemed a little clunky.

[7:06] Jeff Malone: It almost seemed like the stage was maybe too big for something like this, and we weren't filling the space with enough.

[7:10] Richie Grasso: Yeah, that was a thing we could talk about later with direction, but these were some of the things I think did work, and I thought the reimagining of the music and the lighting and how we told the story from this lens worked really well.

[7:21] Richie Grasso: Do you kind of agree with some of that?

[7:22] Jeff Malone: I do agree with it.

[7:23] Richie Grasso: And I look at it, and I'm—I was trying to kind of see a little bit more about like why we want to break this show down, and were we highlighting enough of what really—highlighting enough of what they were trying to get across in breaking this show down?

[7:42] Jeff Malone: Because I feel like when you look at something like "Oklahoma!" and how they really stripped that show and made you think about the piece more, I say, "Okay, I understood why they were doing 'Oklahoma!' like this," because normally "Oklahoma!" is overlooked and the stuff that's actually over the top with its cost.

[7:42] Richie Grasso: Well, yeah, it's over the top, overlooked, however you want to look at that, and it is masking the actual text that's in that piece.

[8:09] Jeff Malone: You know, so I looked here and I'm like, "Okay, the stripping down of 'SHOW/BOAT' works in this sense because I feel like I'm actually understanding the text better of the scenes that are written."

[8:23] Richie Grasso: And the music having its kind of, you know, early musical days, the ballads and the, uh, you know, and there's a lot of repetition that happens throughout this show too, with, you know, "Old Man River," I think having like five different moments in here, you know, um, "Make Believe" happens again and "Can't Help Lovin' That Man."

[8:46] Jeff Malone: They happen multiple times, so it's like it's not a full, almost like original, like twenty-two different songs happening in this.

[8:57] Richie Grasso: Right.

[8:58] Jeff Malone: The same few songs, right?

[8:59] Richie Grasso: But I actually am watching it though and seeing what's happening with racism in this piece.

[9:05] Jeff Malone: So I think stripping it down in that sense helps you kind of look at this better.

[9:09] Richie Grasso: Which makes you realize even the title was changed.

[9:11] Jeff Malone: We have to talk about "Show/Boat."

[9:14] Richie Grasso: Because I said it when we were at intermission, we're leaving the show.

[9:17] Jeff Malone: I said, "Show, there's a show."

[9:19] Richie Grasso: Yeah.

[9:20] Jeff Malone: And there's a boat.

[9:21] Richie Grasso: I mean, I don't mean to be a river.

[9:23] Jeff Malone: And there's a river.

[9:24] Richie Grasso: No, but really, I know that sounds so like elementary, but like the show that's happening is the captain putting the show on, and the actors, and they have to put the show, and there's all that happening.

[9:34] Jeff Malone: But then what's happening with these people working on this boat?

[9:38] Richie Grasso: And I'm also—I'm always fascinated that like there was a time in history where like people got on a boat and like watched a show and then got off the boat.

[9:47] Jeff Malone: I understand we have cruises now, and that's very prevalent.

[9:50] Richie Grasso: But it was different because you know, it was maybe it was a day or it was a weekend, or was it—I don't know if they were sleeping on the boat.

[9:50] Jeff Malone: I don't know if it was a boat that was just going from one town to the next, and then you got off and saw family and friends, and then you got back on the boat the next day and went on.

[10:01] Richie Grasso: I don't really know.

[10:02] Jeff Malone: It's like those big steamboats, right?

[10:04] Richie Grasso: Those big river boats.

[10:05] Jeff Malone: But then there's the river, and "Old Man River," that song is so intricate to the struggles of African American people at the time, but the river just keeps going on.

[10:16] Jeff Malone: The river moved the show and moved the boat and moved history for the better or for the worse. Who's to tell? That's your interpretation of this. But the boat moved down the river. I know this is sound like beating over the head, but there is a reason why I think this creative team divided this up as show slash boat because you're talking about two very different things in this plot, which I almost never really realized in the original. That you obviously know like there's workers on the boat, there's people on the boat performing. When the years later, we're in like Chicago, I think, and we're not on the boat anymore, but they're talking about the boat. The boat is like a character here.

[10:50] Richie Grasso: Well, there's so many different things that it resembles, yeah, and represents. I mean, you have this boat that is going to different towns. There is also a black culture that this boat is going to. There are people that work on the boat, there are people that are getting on the boat. It is divided. The people where audience members sit on the boat with white people versus black people. And I think when you really look at this too, you break down and you watch what's happening in the scenes because entertainment and musical styles and those things, they're getting stolen from the black community.

[11:29] Jeff Malone: Yeah. So and I think when you kind of start piecing things together here, you look and you say, Okay, well, Magnolia, right? Is her name? She keeps taking on the role from the black woman, which is Julie, her friend, until she finds out that she is part black, so she is mixed. And then we are now looking at this and we're saying, Okay, she's taking the role now from Julie. She's singing Julie's songs, she's going, even when she gets to Chicago, she's like, I'm just gonna sing black music, white girl. Right. Or when they that's why I think Ken I've love that man comes throughout the piece. Also, there's an importance to Bill in Act Two, which is actually a beautiful song, and who's singing that when and what's being stolen? Who is Bill, and but the point of the, you know, it's a love song. But there's every song in this show means something, yeah. It's very important.

[12:27] Richie Grasso: Yeah, this is a great time to, I think, move into direction, actor performances, and design. But before we do that, here are a few messages from those that make this show possible.

[12:36] Jeff Malone: Okay. So let's get into the direction of this piece, the design and actor performance here, because I think there's a lot to talk about with this production. And let's start off by saying it is early stages of this show. This is not like it's on Broadway. It's not in a major off-Broadway space. It's done in an experimental space with a college platform that we're in downtown at. Yes, I do think that this could go back to the drawing boards a little bit and do another like two weeks in a room workshopping at fixing cleaning because it seemed low budget at times, even though I know we had this orchestration, we had tons of lights up there and sounds and the stage seems so bare bones, which is fine. I mean, there's nothing on stage in Sunset Boulevard on Broadway, and that's fine.

[13:22] Richie Grasso: I think what's interesting with this production is this it was getting buzzed because obviously it's showboat, uh, and we're doing something different with it now. We're breaking it down, so it's getting the buzz. People were there. I definitely saw theater people there seeing it. Um, I think some people left at intermission based on what I saw when we were sitting there talking. But I love seeing something like this because I look at this and I'm like, oh, there's an idea here.

[13:46] Jeff Malone: Yeah. And we're watching this idea early on in this stage, and I think that there is a concept, you know. Did it feel low budget at times? Yeah, yes. And I do think that at times, you know, there were some vision moments that were lacking, especially in act two. Um, it's directed by David Herskovitz. Yes. And I really think that Act One had a lot going for it. Something about Act Two seemed to fall apart a little bit for me. I was losing a lot of the plot. I almost feel like they could have trimmed 10 minutes off of it. It seemed to not quite, and there was like the scattered chairs on the stage, and I thought we were getting super concept-y there, where I almost thought that the concept was working so well in act one.

[14:34] Richie Grasso: Well, right. So that's why I wanted to get in to kind of say the show and how it's written in act two really isn't that great, in my opinion. So I already think you're dealt a kind of bad hand with act two in here because I think this actually the story kind of loses its um way.

[14:58] Jeff Malone: Yeah. Cause then it just kind of turns more into, you know, child comes into stardom and then moves on into that as well. And then that's really the piece. Right. Um, and we're now trying to put a lens in here that's talking more about the culture that this boat was running through. Right. Right. And the racism that these people dealt with. And it wraps up nice, but it almost feels like well when the absence of the boat in most of Act Two seems to be a little like okay, well, we were so about the boat in Act One.

[15:36] Richie Grasso: Right. And I know that's what it's about. And I do think when it comes to vision though, like you can take the sense of these are actors and they're putting on the costumes, um, and they're a troop that are putting this show on. That's where I think the vision was going in the beginning. And you know, we're stop, stop, stop. Wait, okay, now I'm ready, play my song. You know, I don't know if that's really in the original productions of shows. And it's usually such a high budget thing. It was like a Folly's esque show of the time. Right. I actually think Franz Ziegfeld might have produced the original. I think there was some I you know, it was very boisterous like that. So to strip it down works, but yes, then you we it did feel low budget borderline because there's not much, we're dealing with some chairs and some you know things like that, which is fine, but but then that's where I think it gets a little bit harder in act two, because you know, now we're placing the chairs here, and it's a little distracting at times when we're placing the chairs, you know.

[16:33] Jeff Malone: I will say from a um from a actor's standpoint, there was two performances that really stood out to me.

[16:39] Richie Grasso: Let's see if they match mine.

[16:40] Jeff Malone: Okay. I wrote down two, too. I wrote down Rebbekah Vega-Romero.

[16:43] Richie Grasso: Yes.

[16:43] Jeff Malone: I as Magnolia really, really carried a lot of this. She was really, really impressive. Singing and acting, I thought she was really, really great.

[16:51] Richie Grasso: Yes.

[16:51] Jeff Malone: Um, and I put Alvin Crawford's singing "Old Man River" because there was just something so iconic about hearing him sing that line. There's not many baritone bass solos written for musical theater in that low, low register. And I thought he got that so well. I was very impressed with it.

[17:07] Richie Grasso: I do think when we hear that song and and we say, like, yeah, why don't people really write for a bass? Because everyone like a high belting tenor boys now on Robin. You know, it's not always the I I do think it that was a great moment. I actually I wrote down Philip Themo Stoddard as Ravenal. I actually just thought that their chemistry between Rebbekah and Philip here.

[17:30] Jeff Malone: In "Make Believe."

[17:31] Richie Grasso: In "Make Believe." I never, I don't think I've really ever heard this music live before.

[17:37] Jeff Malone: Yeah, actually.

[17:37] Richie Grasso: Actually, I mean, maybe at a concert or cabaret or something. I don't, but I've always heard "Make Believe," and I actually teared up listening to them singing "Make Believe." Because I thought I think that's like the first like love ballad of musical theater. And I think that whole scene that leads into it. Well, why don't we pretend that you're my nephew? And he's like, I don't know if I want to pretend I think we should pretend we're in love. I was like, oh my god, Mr. Crying, this is so beautiful. Even though there's like so much else going on in the story about so many other difficult things, there was something charming about that.

[18:06] Jeff Malone: And that song is just so beautifully written. And we don't hear ballads like that.

[18:10] Richie Grasso: Yeah, I do think it has some great moments in there. I look at this, and I actually found that was probably one of my favorite directed moments.

[18:17] Jeff Malone: Yeah, when the lights, the house lights finally went down there.

[18:20] Richie Grasso: Yes, because we got into the fantasy moment.

[18:22] Jeff Malone: Fantasy, the make-believe moment, like let's go here. Um they did something, and I don't know if this is what's traditionally done or if it's in the text, I would need to read the script. But when she turns around and looks at him, and it's that first moment of like, oh, we love each other, like love at first sight. We then go on later into the show, and they he runs away from her, basically them splitting up in some way, but he then comes back, and when she sees him again, they have that moment again where she turns around, she sees him, and it's like love happens all over again. And that's what I thought was really like something that was directed really well.

[19:06] Richie Grasso: And especially as in so many modern ballads, like they're belting their face. This is just like beautiful like simplicity, and I wish we had some more like romantic love ballads written more modern that are not like belts your face off, you know.

[19:21] Jeff Malone: Really, really good direction on some of that, Richie.

[19:23] Richie Grasso: I totally hear you on that. And where do you feel like in terms of scenic design being minimal is perhaps too sparse?

[19:31] Jeff Malone: I thought I was just expecting a little more. I thought the scrim with the backwards black and white portals, that was very cool. I thought the like curtain, like there was a lot of just like black curtains up there the whole time. I thought we could have pulled in a scrim or two, another curtain or two. Maybe we could have had some projection use. Actually, it would have been cool to see maybe how we had so much video projection in West Side Story reimagined on Broadway, and then so much in Sunset Boulevard that it would have been cool to maybe either use video of some kind.

[20:01] Richie Grasso: Yeah.

[20:02] Jeff Malone: Um, I don't know. I think if you're gonna go low budget, maybe get someone to kind of project some of that a little bit, maybe.

[20:08] Richie Grasso: Yeah, I wouldn't even know if it's like just low budget. I'm just saying, like, if it's intended, sure. But for a musical like this, I don't know if you can do it so strict.

[20:21] Jeff Malone: That's I think the hard part here. And I think what you know, a lot of people are saying about this show is like beautiful voices all singing these beautiful songs, but like where is the next level for this?

[20:35] Jeff Malone: Right, because I do feel like it just I and I don't know what that is. I don't know what the next level is for this. Do you elevate your budget? Do you get some producers behind this? Do you do another off-Broadway run? Because I don't know if this is Queen Ready for Bravo yet. Does it settle and it just goes and sits and it's we tried? Not everything needs to be big commercial, splashy Tony nominated, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[20:56] Richie Grasso: Right. You know, um, it proves that anything is possible. And if an estate can get behind this and you can really reimagine something, you know, not and I will say, not everything needs to be reimagined.

[21:08] Jeff Malone: Right. Which that's what I want to talk in this thing. Okay, so let's move into our own experience at the show. Uh, but first, here are a few messages from our sponsors.

[21:18] Jeff Malone: Okay, so we're back now. Let's kind of get into our own experience at this show, and then whatever else we want to talk about here.

[21:25] Richie Grasso: Yeah, I think that I think it was a downtown experience. It was a lot of native New Yorkers and younger people in collegiates and um people there learning and and listening, and it wasn't the splashy commercial audience. When I when we were just talking about um reimagining things, you know, another example of reimagined work was the company revive. I left that off earlier. And I remember Steve Sondheim being so involved in that, and everybody's saying he liked the idea of that this change, he liked the idea of that change. A director like Marian Elliott came on board and they worked together to reimagine this. Now, you're not gonna get that. But when Oklahoma did it, none of those creatives were living anymore. Right, none of the creatives of SHOW/BOAT were living anymore.

[22:05] Jeff Malone: So I guess the question then poses itself do you feel like you have the artistic liberty or the right to reimagine someone else's work, even if the estate allows you? Because I look at it like I would reimagine something knowing that the original one at least of the original creative team members was there to be like, love that. I'm here to support you. Not saying no, like if Steven Sondheim said no, Marianne Elliott, don't do that, don't do this, don't do that. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about he supported the vision. Maybe there were a few times when he said, I'm not sure. That's not really what's the point of this piece. But I guess the point I'm saying is, would you rather see things reimagined knowing that someone from the original creative team was there? Or do you like the idea of a new team coming on and saying, Nope, everyone's passed on, the estate is giving me a permission here, and let's run with it? Two very different scenarios, kind of right.

[22:56] Richie Grasso: Yeah, I always look at something like the production itself. And yes, there's a creative team behind it, but that production is not the end all. That's just the first one to do it, or maybe the second one, or maybe the 30th person to do it if you, you know, you want to talk about some specific works. I think going back to the work is what you're really talking about. Because whoever wrote SHOW/BOAT or the music or whatnot, that's who I would want to talk to because of that or want to see it because they're the ones who kind of created it, and then you're now creating the production of it. You really had nothing to do with the actual text of the piece as a director.

[23:40] Jeff Malone: Right. Unless you wrote it too, which in that case, yes, you would want someone to be there. When I look at something like a reimagined, usually I think that means we're taking the text and we're reworking the text. So if we're not changing that, like I never really kind of look at Oklahoma as a reimagined piece of theater because it's still exactly the same as it was. The production is just different, and it's what people are not used to. And I think a lot of people have a hard time separating production from text. And if you have the text supporting, it always goes down to the text.

[24:14] Richie Grasso: Yeah. If you're doing things that don't make any sense, then maybe you didn't interpret that text correctly, right? But then when you see things interpreted, like I think the Sunset Boulevard revival is like so spot on with reinterpreting the text in the right way. With Show Boat, which is obviously what we're talking about here, there was, like I said, roots were planted to start looking at this through a different lens. It's not quite there yet. I who's to say that we can't put maybe this gets tabled for two or three years and comes back. Maybe they're gonna go right into workshopping. Actually, as we record this today, it's the last day.

[24:47] Jeff Malone: Right. So now what? You always wonder that. You know, had a few weeks of a run, and now what? But I think it does pull in a new kind of way of looking at things. Not that reimagining things are different right now because we've seen a ton of things, but like think about the jellicle ball. That's a great example of the show is exactly the same. But we're bringing in beats to the orchestrations and you know, different costumes that are not traditionally worn in that piece in like Cats on Broadway. But you look at it and you're like, oh, I'm just watching this in a completely different lens now because this is what someone you know thinks that Cats actually is, and it's the jellicle ball, and it worked perfect. And I think everyone likes Cats after they see that.

[25:39] Richie Grasso: But it also makes you wonder like when when I'm not even gonna say if, because at some point we're gonna see Phantom of the Opera right back on Broadway to or wherever. That will be reimagined, of course. But does it need to be reimagined? But someone might think it well, I I don't know. It might want to be reimagined for budget terms. But I will say Chicago Umbrella right now is reimagined from that original. This is an everyone wears all black all the time and does it with an orchestra on stage, completely different from the original run. Of course, you know, there's so much of that who's to say that one day Wicked couldn't be reimagined and that original's down with the movie and you never know.

And or you just put the show. There's also nothing wrong with just putting the we just saw Annie. There was really nothing different about the production we saw at MSG. Did it seem a little like, yeah, we could have, but there could have been some more bells and whistles, but we didn't need to change Annie. Annie just worked the way Annie worked, right? But that is up to the direction and the creative teams to decide what they want their version of Annie to be.

[26:39] Jeff Malone: You know, we've seen so many different versions of Annie, even um in filmed versions. And but that's kind of a work that's a little bit hard because like what are you reinventing in that piece? Right. It's a very cut cookie cutter kind of script and plot and music score. And I think why we're starting to see things like SHOW/BOAT and others from the old, like the original musicals and the golden age musicals, because so much of it was masking um bigger elements, bigger elements. Look at South Pacific. I mean, the racism there that they handle the Sound of Music and the difficult elements they handle there. Golden Age has always kind of dealt with some difficult subject matter. Yes, a little sugarcoating with beautiful songs and children running on stage and fun stuff and all that, but there is a root there, and you wonder what was allowed at the time.

How many directors of people were like, can we do this? And they're like, No, I it's 1945. I don't think we can 1952, you know. Now look at what oh Mary's doing on Broadway for Christ's sake, you know what I'm saying? Or Book of Mormon's doing on Broadway right now. Like so that's why when you look at uh I'll keep going back to something like Oklahoma, they didn't really change anything. No, they just staged it differently, made it more modern in some ways, but still country and and it really kind of gave the whole text a different meaning. And a lot of people didn't like that because they don't want their show kind of making them feel bad.

[28:12] Richie Grasso: Yeah, yeah. But when they see it at in its original production, they're like, yeah, this is amazing. It's crazy. It's fun. It's nice. But there's such a huge message in that. And that's why I think when we see pieces, we're like, oh, okay. And I don't think there's anything wrong with looking at something. Not that we have to take the fun out of all of the musicals, but if they weren't written that way, then I mean there's bigger things there.

[28:36] Jeff Malone: Right. So good conversation. And now we're almost out of time here. So final thoughts. I will go back to SHOW/BOAT. Let's go back to SHOW/BOAT or River off-Broadway.

[28:49] Richie Grasso: Okay, I'll go back to what I said earlier. I think when I see something like this, it's inspiring. Number one. And it is laying down groundwork, uh, number two, for it to really be something. Yeah, you know, I do think that there is potential here overall. Was it perfect? No. But you know, it's getting a different message around the show. But we all know that the show is like rooted in racism and you know what are you supposed to pull away from this piece.

[29:18] Jeff Malone: I agree with everything you're saying. And I and I didn't leave the show saying, Oh, they shouldn't have touched it. They should have just left it alone. I didn't feel like I said it was brave for them to do what they did. Needs to go back to the drawing boards a little bit. And I would love I would love to know. I I I would love to know if this creative team would want to hear from people like us or others and say, Well, what did work? What's it? We want to know. I'm gonna take my notebook out and write everything. I want to just hear what you thought.

[29:41] Richie Grasso: Right. Because they maybe even looked at it and said, Great, we put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears in this, and now we want to rework it even more. Maybe this was just one chapter in a four-step process. Who knows?

[29:52] Jeff Malone: Right, right. But it obviously needs the next step of a theater lens, though, because like this felt almost college. We're in a college scenario setting, being at NYU.

[30:04] Richie Grasso: Right. And a beautiful theater.

[30:06] Jeff Malone: Yeah. Yeah. But like you don't want it to feel college. You want it to be like the next step up after.

[30:12] Richie Grasso: Yeah. So all good things. Well, that does wrap up our discussion of this episode. We hope you enjoyed our deep dive into SHOW/BOAT or River off-Broadway. And remember, we want to hear from you. Continue the conversation with us on Instagram at Half Hour Podcast. Drop us a comment on Spotify and let us know your thoughts on SHOW/BOAT or River. If you enjoyed our show, please leave us a review. Your feedback helps us bring more theater to you. And remember, you can listen to past episodes and stay tuned for the many upcoming episodes as well. Until next time, I'm Jeff.

[30:42] Richie Grasso: And I'm Richie saying ta ta for now.

[30:44] Jeff Malone: Bye.