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[0:02] Devario D. Simmons: Hello, and welcome to Into Costume, a podcast in support of the Costume Industry Coalition.

[0:09] Devario D. Simmons: Each episode, I chat with costume industry insiders about the intricate process of creating iconic looks for stage or screen.

[0:17] Devario D. Simmons: My name is Devario D. Simmons, and I am a costume designer, educator, and host. Thank you for joining us today.

[0:30] Devario D. Simmons: This week we have Tony Award winner, Glenn Close, costume designer, Tracy Christensen, and the owner of Tricorne Costume Shop, Kathy Marshall.

[0:42] Devario D. Simmons: Thank you so much for being with us today on Into Costume.

[0:47] Devario D. Simmons: Glenn Close, it's such an honor to meet you. You've worn such beautiful costumes over your career. And more specifically, we're going to talk about the costumes of the Sunset Boulevard revival today. We're also lucky enough to have Tracy Christensen here, the costume designer, and Kathy Marshall, the maker of those costumes.

[1:06] Devario D. Simmons: So I just kind of want to start to talk about like that collaboration, like how this, how we all got here. Just like the beginning of what those costumes were, if you will, Tracy.

[1:18] Tracy Christensen: Okay, well, Lonnie Price, who was the director and my longtime collaborator, invited me to design the show. And the brief I was given was that we would be using Glenn's costumes from the Broadway production, which she had preserved. And so that's where we began with the production that we did in London. And then when we moved to Broadway, it was discussed to have an expansion of that wardrobe to add in more looks for Norma Desmond. And that's how we began collaborating on what those looks would be and where they would happen and how we could make all the quick changes easier and less laborious throughout the whole show.

[2:01] Devario D. Simmons: Yeah, Miss Close, when you like get into that process, because we've, as Tracy just said, they added those costumes. What is that process like? Um, really getting to know who that character is when it comes down to introducing the clothes to the process.

[2:17] Glenn Close: Well, this was particularly interesting for me because the original production that I was in was in 1993. And the London production was 2017, 16, 17. Like that, yeah. So a lot of years later. The reality of it for me was that I thought, because I preserved the costumes, that we didn't have a huge budget, certainly not for London. And why not see what costumes can be expanded a little, I'll say, or thank God there are a lot of wonderful, you know, long coats and things. But um, the truth is that I had my approach to Norma Desmond the second time around, deepened by the years that I had lived and learned more about the craft of acting and gotten deeper into the role of Norma, I approached her 180 degrees differently than I did originally.

So when I and I can't remember if I mentioned it when that for the first fitting when we took my old costumes, it was like I was dressing up in my grandmother's clothes. It did not feel right. And that to me was fascinating because it showed how much those particular brilliant costumes by Anthony Powell were for that particular time in that particular show. We had probably one of the most elaborate, ornate, rich sets that has ever been. So the costumes had to compete with that. With Lonnie's beautiful production, it was all austere. It was minimal. It was, it was just, it was like we were on a sound stage with various levels of platforms. So we could have probably done that show just in shapes of costumes.

But we used the old costumes. And so it was an adjustment for me. It didn't change anything I did. But the fact that Tracy came in and added some costumes to what we already had was very, very important because it was more to the point for the production that we actually were doing all those years after the original production.

[4:48] Devario D. Simmons: Now that Norma Desmond is growing inside of this process, Tracy, how do you um have that collaboration of making sure that um because those clothes are still present from before and you're adding in some new things? How do you marry those two to help grow the character to what it's become at this moment?

[5:06] Tracy Christensen: It's pretty tricky, you know, those clothes are designed by a genius, and I'm sure there was genius collaboration around that original design of the whole show and to expand Norma's wardrobe with not a huge amount of time and certainly not a giant budget, was a tricky assignment, but like a super big privilege. And Glenn and I talked with Lonnie about where the new costumes would want to live to express more of what she looks like at home. A lot of the clothes we had used from Anthony's design were going to Paramount or New Year's Eve, or you know, things that had a function that were really special and specific. And it seemed like we were lacking just what does Norma wear around the house, if you will, being a glamorous movie star from the 40s. It wasn't it, you were more modern.

I mean, you came at it at more because my original Norma, I conceived of her as being caught in the past. The new Norma, who's still developing was very much in that time, you know. So she wasn't always she didn't always look as if she were wearing a costume. Um, so that's where Tracy did such brilliant work.

[6:32] Devario D. Simmons: So as many of us know, adding costumes into a track is something that normally doesn't happen, right? So, how did you all make that happen? Like you're adding in four more new looks to a track. Um, so what was that composition like, Tracy?

[6:48] Tracy Christensen: Well, after the London production, I think we all could see that it was just an exhausting drain to be changing completely from head to toe every time there was a new scene. And so I took on trying to find a creative solution to having as many looks as we wanted to have, but streamlining some parts of it so that it could be an exchange of outer garment and maybe different hair or whatever to look like this is a different day, it's a different time, a different event, but Glenn wasn't going down to no clothes and new clothes every time she left the stage. So there was that thing to get figured out. Then there were the new looks to manage around what we've already talked about in terms of blending them into an existing set of clothes with a point of view and um an attitude and an emotion.

And so it was really for me about the fabrication. I mean, when I really laid my eyes on those original costumes and saw the depth and uh lushness of the fabrication, I realized I've got to come up with you know something that can work within that vocabulary. And that was where Kathy came in to help me work on the fabrication. I remember one night going up to Glenn's house and showing her a bunch of fabric swatches on her kitchen table. And we were just trying to work together to come up with like how can we how can we be within this world within our parameters?

[8:16] Devario D. Simmons: So Kathy, then so now in theory, right? You've started designing these costumes, Tracy, with the mind of like knowing how they should work. And then next you bring in the people who are gonna make it, right? So, Tracy, could you could you like guide us into what that means for Kathy to be a good collaborator with you as the designer, um, with Kathy being the maker?

[8:39] Tracy Christensen: Well, as soon as I had this project on my plate, I knew I wanted Kathy to be my ally. And I knew she had worked on the original production. I knew that she had worked with Glenn other times, and it was to my advantage to have her brilliant expertise as a maker all wrapped up together with those other things to help me do this. So she was my obvious choice.

[9:07] Devario D. Simmons: I mean, you've had a previous relationship with the original costumes. And when it comes back around to have that opportunity to be able to keep the train going, I'm sure that was very cool, right?

[9:18] Kathy Marshall: It was um such a joyous experience in the beginning, you know, creating them with Anthony and on Glenn and those years of making them Barbara were um so magical for me. She and I made them all together and made many trips to Los Angeles and turned right around and came back in less than 24 hours. And um it and Anthony was such a such a joy to collaborate with and so much fun, it just so much fun. Um so to see them all again was just um quite a rush.

[10:06] Devario D. Simmons: And did you get emotional at all? Because I got I teared up with you when you um we were opening the pistachio beaded outfit and and you commented on the hand over casting and all the hand stitching. I mean, it just it's we still do that, but you know, for it to still be there 20 years later and and for you to notice it, that's what really is so touching.

[10:35] Glenn Close: We like to think they'd see the difference if it wasn't there, but your acknowledgement of it was quite emotional for me, and then, you know, to get to make new things with Tracy and carry the journey on was a lot of fun.

[10:50] Tracy Christensen: It was definitely a highlight of the year for sure.

[10:54] Glenn Close: I bet so great.

[11:02] Tracy Christensen: The Costume Industry Coalition was launched to advocate for the survival of New York City's custom costume industry.

[11:09] Tracy Christensen: Collectively, CIC members employ hundreds of artisans and costuming experts.

[11:14] Tracy Christensen: Their costumes are seen on stages and screen worldwide.

[11:17] Tracy Christensen: To learn more about CIC and how you can get involved or make a tax deductible donation, please visit www.costumeindustrycoalition.com.

[11:28] Tracy Christensen: In these trying times, many are not in the position to give, but you can always help by spreading the word.

[11:41] Devario D. Simmons: So Tracy, let's talk about a costume specifically, right? So there's a red asymmetrical jacket that's worn throughout the show. Can you tell us a little bit about that and what's happening in that moment?

[11:55] Tracy Christensen: Well, this is a scene pushing towards sort of towards the end of Act One, where Joe Gillis is getting measured and kind of briefed on a new wardrobe. And there's a big number, and Norma kind of floats in and out of this number, like what's going on? Why isn't this happening faster? And you know, we imagine her coming from other parts of her house. So we were looking for a sort of lounge look, if you will. And I showed a lot of research and we zeroed in on some of this like sort of Chinese brocade, Asian inspired tunic tops that we were enjoying. And then Glenn actually sent me a sketch. Do you remember that? You drew a little sketch of some like the asymmetry of the bottom of the hem that you were interested in.

And we just kind of came together on what this thing should be. And then the swatcher at Tricorne went out and swatched tons of, I think we had zeroed in on red anyway, based on what else was happening in that scene already color wise, and bringing focus to Norma. So, you know, we looked at a lot of different brocades and found the one that had the right scale of pattern and wasn't going to just draw a bunch of focus away from her face and the right luster and all the things, you know, Kathy had to approve it to make a proper garment. Because just because I think it looks nice doesn't mean it will make a nice garment. There's some beautiful work done in the making of a lot of garments, and especially in the making of this jacket.

[13:24] Kathy Marshall: Could you walk us through the process a little bit of what it takes to make something like this garment for the stage?

[13:33] Kathy Marshall: Well, we start, of course, with the sketch and the conversation about what the garment has to do and how it has to function. From there, I drape a pattern on the form and realize it in fabric to check the proportion and the layout. And then we'll make a mock-up if the fabric is expensive, or if we just want to preserve the fabric, we'll make it in a comparable fabric for the fitting. And that gives us the freedom to change it once it's on Glenn, if we want to move the shoulder or change the hem length or anything. It's not precious. We can do whatever we want to it. And that gives us a lot of freedom to create in the fitting room on top of the design. After that fitting, we'll correct it and we'll proceed into the real fabric.

[14:39] Devario D. Simmons: Ms. Close, you know, as a costume designer myself, I know what a fitting is like for us. What is a fitting like for you? Like there's so much information you gain from even the beginning stages of a fitting. What things do you get from a fitting?

[14:55] Glenn Close: Well, I just I was just thinking of, you know, all the muslins that I've worn, all the mock-ups, they're always done with very loose stitching. And there always comes a time when Kathy will just rip something apart, you know, in order to say, well, we can't, we're not gonna go there, rip and you go. I always love that. It's just like, okay, you know, it's really, if she were, you know, if she were a different kind of artist, it would be changing the shape in a vase or, you know, taking a handle off that didn't, and it's just the very basic thing of how you will create the shape first, first of all. So for me, why it means so much to me is that it's a very, very integral process of how I put a character together to stand in a fitting room and watch the creativity that goes around, you know, these wonderful costumes that I've really had the privilege to wear.

It really informs me, you know, the, you know, what kind of fabric would this character choose? How does it move, you know, very important. I cannot divorce it from the process that I'm going through as the actor and creating the character that those clothes will hang on. So it's a very close collaboration and incredibly important to me. And I just love watching people work, you know.

[16:34] Devario D. Simmons: I love that. I, you know, I don't know how to sew, but I have such respect for people who work in that medium and make this magic with great detail and great finesse. I was just thinking through you explaining that it sounds like such a beautiful relationship. Even when I hear all three of you talk about this process, it sounds like the three of you have just a great relationship and a great trust and great respect for each other's crafts, which is so amazing. Tracy, could you talk a little bit about what it means to have trust in your makers as those who are bringing your vision to life stitch by stitch, bead by bead?

[17:23] Tracy Christensen: Well, I was privileged enough to come out into the business and just be suddenly at Barber Matera Limited. I was assisting different people, and so I was raised by the crème de la crème and witnessing how beautiful things are made inside and out. And I remember Barbara speaking often about the inside has to be as beautiful as the outside because the actor is going to see that. And that had a huge impact on me. And I was shocked when I got out into the world and realized everyone didn't subscribe to that. But yeah, the big thing is that if you are with makers that you trust, you will end up looking like a better designer because they're going to collaborate with you in a way that you can't even imagine.

And then, you know, having an actress like Glenn, who is kind of my favorite kind of actor to be with, because they treat you like a professional. And even though we didn't know each other when we started this, she always treated me instantly like someone who knew what they were doing until proven otherwise, I suppose. And a great trusting collaborator. And that empowered me to then really not be intimidated or, you know, feel like, oh gosh, can I even do this? Intimidating assignment with these clothes and everything. And so between the three of us, I felt like we were a really good team.

[18:46] Glenn Close: I think that's another thing that really moves me when I'm watching a team around me as I'm standing there as a mannequin, is how deeply collaborative it is. Because what Tracy just said about the collaboration with someone like Kathy is so unexpected. And if you're open, if you're open to an idea that it will make it will make a better costume. And you don't say, I thought it should be this way, and this is the way it's gonna be, it becomes because a costume is a living thing, it really is. And I remember with huge affection those moments with Barbara, who would very, very politically suggest ideas, whether it's where to put a feather or a rose or where to put some trim or to, you know, some beading.

She was working from, you know, originally a drawing, but she was trying to realize the vision of the designer. Like I'm trying to realize the vision of the writer or the, you know, the people who create the thing that I'm doing. So to watch that collaboration done with great generosity was a very moving part of the process for me.

[20:07] Devario D. Simmons: Thanks for listening to part one. Join us next week for part two, where we continue our conversation with Glenn Close, Tracy Christensen, and Kathy Marshall. This has been Into Costume. Thanks to the Broadway Podcast Network for their support. If you have any feedback on today's episode, find us on our Twitter handle at IntoCostume. We'd love to hear from you. If you'd like to learn more about the Costume Industry Coalition, please visit their website at costumeindustrycoalition.com. Remember to subscribe and rate on whatever platform you're using. And join us again next time for more stories to get you into costume. Thanks for listening.