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[0:02] Devario D. Simmons: Hello and welcome to Into Costume, a podcast in support of the Costume Industry Coalition.

[0:09] Devario D. Simmons: Each episode, I chat with costume industry insiders about the intricate process of creating iconic looks for stage or screen.

[0:17] Devario D. Simmons: My name is Devario D. Simmons, and I am a costume designer, educator, and host. Thank you for joining us today.

[0:30] Devario D. Simmons: Welcome back to part two of our conversation with iconic Glenn Close, costume designer Tracy Christensen, and costume maker Kathy Marshall, as we discussed the Norma Desmond costumes in the recent revival of Sunset Boulevard.

[0:45] Devario D. Simmons: So, Kathy, when we step inside of your shop, we walk inside of your costume shop. Um, what type of works do we see at play? Um, like what type of things do we see?

[1:00] Kathy Marshall: A lot of fabric. A lot of fabric, a lot of fabric. Um, I mean, you see an area where we do all the swatching and we meet with designers and choose fabric and pick fabric. You see long lines of machines with dressmakers and big cutting tables, lots of mannequins, lots of well-used, worn out dress forms, padded up to all kinds of interesting body shapes.

[1:31] Devario D. Simmons: I'm always amazed how you can do that.

[1:34] Kathy Marshall: Yeah.

[1:34] Kathy Marshall: Just with padding, you can kind of get a shape of a body. I mean, that's so no two are alike, that's for sure.

[1:43] Kathy Marshall: I'm just gonna, I know we're recording, but there's a box of pictures that I think has some pictures from some fittings. Some fitting photos.

[1:52] Glenn Close: Oh, great.

[1:53] Kathy Marshall: Annie with the fur tails.

[1:56] Glenn Close: Yes.

[1:57] Glenn Close: Yes. Dressed up in the book.

[1:59] Kathy Marshall: I have that.

[1:59] Glenn Close: Do you have that picture?

[2:01] Kathy Marshall: No, but you showed it to me in your dressing room.

[2:03] Glenn Close: Yeah, the first sunset. Annie was five.

[2:08] Glenn Close: And she was given ears and a tail, and she crawled around.

[2:15] Devario D. Simmons: Well, I do have a question too that I want to ask you, Ms. Close about. What advice would you give like actors out there when they get into a costume fitting, right? Our listeners are going to be some of all ranges of careers and ages.

[3:04] Glenn Close: And I think the first thing I'd say is listen to what the intent of the designer is before you have your opinion. Because a lot of thought has gone into that. And then secondly, don't be afraid to have an opinion, because it's your character. And this is the beginning of a very important collaboration. And what's important about that, I mean, what makes it good is that you are willing to listen and go on from there together. And I also, I don't like it when somebody says, "Oh, I don't like that." I mean, I like to, if you feel that something is wrong, I think you need to come up with what you think might be right. So it's not just, "Oh, I don't like that." That is not conducive to a good collaboration.

You know, it's all about how to get it right. Um, I've always had, you know, huge respect for what goes into creating a costume. Um, so listen first. Um, if you have questions, don't be afraid to ask them. You know, it's at the very beginning, the same thing. Also, I mean, I hate my arms. And the first thing I'll say is, "Okay, I don't want this and this and this and this because I hate my arms." And I don't care what kind of character I'm playing. Well, there's some characters maybe where my arms would be valid, though maybe less and less, but um, so do I cover them? Do I uncover them? Are they tight? Are they loose? I mean, things like that. I would get out in front first, so that they don't build something all of a sudden, "Oh, I forgot to tell you, I don't like this kind of tightness on my arms." That so, you know, just I respect the ability to listen and to know that your character will be better when you have a costume that's been a great collaboration.

[5:12] Devario D. Simmons: So true. So true. And you know, Tracy, I have the same question for you in a way, um, about a costume designer to the makers. Like, like what type of um advice do you have? Because I do think that there are a lot of times when things are designed, that there's a preconceived notion of how the designer wants to make and how it should be made, right? And sometimes the builders, that's their profession. So for sure they have other ideas. So maybe there's some advice there also. So what advice do you have for a costume designer to a builder?

[5:50] Tracy Christensen: Uh well, you need to be confident of the visual part of the idea. I think it's always tough when the designer, because I worked for lots of different people as an assistant when I was coming up in the business. And what I observed is when designers were really unclear or unsure of what they really wanted, it made it very difficult for the maker to even begin. So having a solid idea, even if it's going to change later or evolve or transform, that's important. And then really listening to what the maker says in your initial conversations about fabrication and um structure and how we could rig this thing and all of that stuff is just crucial communication. Um, you know, the more you deviate from how they're suggesting that something be put together, the more complication there could be later for the thing to fail or just fall apart or whatever um they're trying to circumvent.

So it's recognizing their expertise. That doesn't mean that I don't know anything about making clothes and haven't been around the block, you know, more times than I want to admit, but I am no expert, and I mean that's why I'm there, you know. I'm there to get that on my side.

[7:10] Glenn Close: I have to say also that a great element in the second collaboration with Tracy was my dresser, um Jim Nadeau, who had been with me in the original. And I think with Jim and Tracy and Kathy solved some very, I mean, talk about quick changes. Um, he remember that one, I think it was in that red jacket. He put the zipper on upside down because it made it. I had was moving up the stairs as he was doing up the zipper and he put it upside down and it just worked like magic. So he, you know, to have a great dresser who's a problem solver. Um, of course, especially for theater. Um he, you know, he don't you think?

[7:54] Tracy Christensen: Oh, absolutely.

[7:56] Tracy Christensen: He had a great knowledgeable um knowledge of how I my track through the show. And um, it really helped. Yeah, I mean, extraordinary dressers or wardrobe people are the next crucial component to this, and I consult with them all the time, whether I'm the designer or the associate or whatever.

[8:16] Tracy Christensen: You want to get those supervisors or the dresser in to say, this is what I'm thinking. Does this make sense to you? Do you have any other thoughts so that we can just do it that way and not be then like dismantling the garment in a hurry and maybe doing damage to it later when we could have just put the zipper in upside down, you know, the end. So that's a good solution.

[8:44] Tracy Christensen: The Costume Industry Coalition was launched to advocate for the survival of New York City's custom costume industry. Collectively, CIC members employ hundreds of artisans and costuming experts. Their costumes are seen on stages and screens worldwide. To learn more about CIC and how you can get involved or make a tax-deductible donation, please visit www.costumeindustrycoalition.com. In these trying times, many are not in the position to give. But you can always help by spreading the word.

[9:40] Tracy Christensen: What advice do you have for some of the makers for longevity? Even though we're in this pause, hoping to claw out very soon.

[9:49] Glenn Close: Well, you've got to love doing it. I started in 1974 professionally at the Guthrie. And then I worked with Barbara for 20 years. And now I can't believe it. I've had my own business for over 20 years on top of that. So and I still love it. I just love making things. I love the collaboration, especially. Most of the time, sometimes the collaboration can be frustrating, I will admit, but most of the time it's not. I mean, we all want the same outcome. And I think you just have to love it. And the more you do it, the more you learn, and you take that knowledge and you keep going forward with it.

[10:43] Tracy Christensen: I want to mention just one thing about quality. It's extraordinary. Well, first of all, I take great pride in that my costumes that I have a big collection, that they're treated well, that they were well curated, but it took a lot of time. But the fact that all these years later, so it's like 30 years in between, like 26 or 27, that those costumes were still well wearable. I mean, completely wearable with a lot of hand beading. Jim Nadeau, I have to say, in both productions, would spend hours afterwards retrieving beads and putting them back on because of the wear and tear, but that shows the quality. You know, how many pieces of clothing would still be that spectacular after 20 years?

[11:38] Tracy Christensen: Service, I'm going back to the red jacket costume specifically. I was, you know, I always wonder how someone describes it to others. So if you all have a picture in your minds of what that costume looks like, I would love to know how you would describe this costume because some would describe it as a jacket and some pants, and I'm sure there are many more feelings in it for some than there are others. We'll start with you, Miss Close, if you will.

[12:05] Glenn Close: Well, it was really fun to wear. The color was beautiful on stage, and it was comfortable and it moved well. And it fit. I remember you also found a great necklace that went with it. For me, it was a perfect piece of costuming.

[12:25] Tracy Christensen: So good, Tracy, same question.

[12:28] Tracy Christensen: I was hoping that it would be dramatic and befitting of who this woman once was, who she was now, the space that she inhabits, which we were using our imaginations for a lot. I mean, there was a huge fabulous orchestra behind her and all of this amazing scaffolding and stuff, but there wasn't a lot, as she mentioned earlier, to look at. It was a lot of filling that in with your mind. So I was trying to make her the focus. I was looking for Norma to steal every scene she was in. Well, and red is a great accomplice for that, you know, when you were like, look at me, and there it is. So yeah, I was looking for something to really pop and stand forward from all the darkness of that set and make us believe that this is a garment that could hang in her closet, in addition to some of those other things that we've seen. This was worthy of Norma Desmond to say, yes, I will wear that. And yet comfortable to wear around the house, so to speak.

[13:32] Kathy Marshall: Same to you, Kathy. How do you describe it?

[13:34] Kathy Marshall: Well, I thought it really hit the mark. I mean, that particular costume before had been two different things. I think it had a little bit of a struggle. I mean, of all of them, the rest of them all sort of originally seemed to land right off and have a clear path. But I remember making at least two different versions of that red jacket for that scene. And I think Anthony had some question about the design. I felt like this new design really had the right amount of what she maybe thought was a little exotic. And it was easy, but it was somehow a little bit exotic. Yeah, it had just that touch, but you also felt that it was wearable, that it was real. The other one was very much a costume. Yes. As if she had worn it in one of her old productions or something.

[14:35] Tracy Christensen: So good. I have one last question I want to ask. And it's funny because it's if you could do it all like over again, and it's literally you've done this all over again already. I guess it's befitting. But if you could do it all over again with this costume, would you? And if you would, would you change anything about it?

[14:56] Glenn Close: I wouldn't. This was my favorite thing. I loved this costume and I loved how it looked in the number, and I felt like we achieved something super appropriate and yet fun and fresh. It was a really fresh thing that just suddenly walked into the picture, and I loved all, you know, we went into the fitting with my design, and then while we were in the fitting, Glenn said, What if we did this for the neck? And we changed it to that, and it was awesome. I felt like we all contributed to that costume so that it was just as it needed to be. So I honestly I wouldn't change anything. I loved it.

[15:35] Devario D. Simmons: This has been Into Costume. Thanks to the Broadway Podcast Network for their support. If you have any feedback on today's episode, find us on our Twitter handle at Into Costume. We'd love to hear from you. If you'd like to learn more about the Costume Industry Coalition, please visit their website at CostumeIndustryCoalition.com. Remember to subscribe and rate on whatever platform you're using and join us again next time for more stories to get you into costume. Thanks for listening.