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[0:02] Devario D. Simmons: Hello, and welcome to Into Costume, a podcast in support of the Costume Industry Coalition.

[0:09] Devario D. Simmons: Each episode, I chat with costume industry insiders about the intricate process of creating iconic looks for stage or screen.

[0:17] Devario D. Simmons: My name is Devario D. Simmons, and I am a costume designer, educator, and host. Thank you for joining us today.

[0:30] Devario D. Simmons: This week we have a winner of RuPaul's Drag Race season six, Bianca Del Rio, legendary costume designer Gregg Barnes, and owner of Cygnet Studio, Coco Dupont.

[0:43] Devario D. Simmons: All right, thank you three for being here today with me on Into Costume. Um, we have Bianca Del Rio, out of drag.

[0:47] Bianca Del Rio: Yeah.

[0:51] Devario D. Simmons: That's Roy Ahelock. Um, we have Coco Dupont of Cygnet Studio and the legend, Gregg Barnes. How are you three doing today?

[1:01] Bianca Del Rio: Good.

[1:02] Coco Dupont: So good.

[1:03] Devario D. Simmons: Well, you know, I just want to start off um getting to know you a little bit more. Um Roy, how did you even start this whole thing? Like, give us a little bit of background of like drag into New York and entertainment.

[1:17] Bianca Del Rio: Well, the crazy thing was uh in New Orleans where I'm from, I started out in uh, you know, high school, just in drama. Uh, I think I was dramatic enough. Well, as we say, we say dramatic, but technically it's called gay. So I was very gay in high school, and um I had a teacher, uh, a drama teacher who basically introduced me to theater. You know, she was like, Do you know how to sew? Do you know how to act? I'm like, sure, sure, sure. Sign me up. So all of it led to she was choreographing a show at a dinner theater, random, and they needed help with costumes. It was a woman by the name of Mary Martin, not the Mary Martin, Larry Hackman's mother, not that old, but there's um there was a woman named Mary Martin who needed some help with costumes.

I didn't know what I was doing, but I started to help her with that at the local dinner theater, and that just kind of snowballed into like random uh productions in New Orleans at the time. And then I ended up performing in the shows because they always needed someone to, you know, fill in a small part, and I was already there. So it was just this weird snowball effect that I didn't expect, so to speak. Um, and then it led me to New York in 2005. And that's where I met these fabulous people. So it was this weird, um, this weird combination of both. And I think once you get to New York, I was basically working at the shop during the day and then doing drag at night. You know, when you're in New York, you do anything to pay your rent.

So I picked two really stable careers, drag and costumes. It was a wild journey. I didn't plan it. I didn't expect it or assume uh that any of this was going to be the end result. So it's been a wild journey, a wild journey.

[2:49] Devario D. Simmons: So you worked at Cygnet Studio with Coco. What did you do there?

[2:51] Bianca Del Rio: Well, actually, uh all of us met at Barbara Matera, which was uh 890 Broadway, this amazing costume house, if people aren't familiar, this you know, company that built every show you can imagine over the past what, 40, 50 years, Gregg, I believe, somewhere in there, something crazy. So she was at the shop, Gregg was designing shopping. When I got there, Gregg was designing uh Drowsy Chaperone and the Rockettes at the time. The nude, uh, the nude beaded ones that Coco did, and all of that was happening at the same time. So that's where I met Gregg. That's where I met Coco. And then um, many years after Barbara Matera closed, Coco opened her own studio, which is where I joined her over there.

[3:30] Devario D. Simmons: So Gregg, Coco, how long has your shop been open?

[3:33] Coco Dupont: Uh we opened in 2011.

[3:37] Devario D. Simmons: What made you want to jump into the owning of a shop moment?

[3:42] Coco Dupont: Uh I guess I just really wanted to have control. Which in Matera's I didn't feel I really had. And I came in to at Matera's at sort of a transition time. You know, I joined them, and then a year later was 9-11, and then Barbara died. So it was a very um difficult time. And then when Matera's closed, I loved the work. I wanted to keep doing it. And I couldn't really see myself working for somebody else. I thought, well, this is the time. I was, you know, I was in my mid-50s, and I thought this is it, you know. Um, I should do it if I'm going to do it. So then my partner and I, my domestic partner, and I started the shop.

[4:33] Devario D. Simmons: So good. What would you say your specialty is at your shop?

[4:36] Coco Dupont: I believe that it's ballet. I am one of the only maybe two or three people in the city that make um professional tutus, but also other ballet costumes. But I'm not, I don't know if it's really my specialty. I like pretty things.

[4:52] Bianca Del Rio: Don't we all?

[4:54] Devario D. Simmons: Yes. And Gregg Barnes, look, we've all gawked at all of your creations from like everything that you've ever designed. How are you doing today?

[5:04] Gregg Barnes: I'm really good. I'm really good. Let's talk about your career a little bit. I mean, even when I was in grad school, like we all just like looked at all of your creations. So how did you get started in costume design?

[5:16] Gregg Barnes: Oh my gosh. I mean, sort of I don't want to say it was a fluke, because in many ways, like probably all of us, everything in our life was conspiring to get us to this place, but it didn't necessarily mean that as a seven-year-old you're labeling yourself a costume designer, you know. But I was uh I'm from San Diego, and um I decided when I got out of high school that I was gonna be a teacher, and the only thing I thought I had any passion for was literature, so I became uh a linguistics major with an emphasis in dramatic literature. So I know it's not crazy. So point being I was not a uh drawing and uh I mean I always kind of was out of the corner of my eye if somebody was painting or a craft, anything uh engaged in a craft.

I was fascinated with, but I wasn't doing it myself. So um I took a course uh that was an elective, uh it was a kind of a costume history class, and there was a professional designer coming to town to talk to their grad students. His name is Robert Morgan, he's my you know idol. And basically I walked in there with really, really, really nothing to show. And Bob Morgan said, go to New York. You're the one. Go to NYU, and I was like, I'm gonna be a teacher. I don't know why everyone's trying to pump me up with false promises, you know. So here I am, 21 years old. I was literally two weeks from graduating from with my BFA in literature, and uh I spent the next you know couple years um learning how to draw and make a hat. Badly. I apologize to all the milliners who put it. And certainly, oh, my cross stitch is renowned. Coco doesn't know that about me, but I think it's renowned.

[7:26] Devario D. Simmons: Wow. You know, I think you have such a great signature with your costumes. Like when I see them designed, I'm like, I know that, Gregg. These are such great attention to detail, such great colors, everything just makes so much sense. How did you develop your sense of artistry and costume design?

[7:45] Gregg Barnes: I think it comes from being a linguistics major. It's an interesting thing. You know, I there's something about the story, and I try to uh always make the work be a good storyteller and to be a good um a good uh collaboration with the actor. Um that so that it the whatever I do transcends uh just being a costume. I don't even like that word actually. I like to think of it as clothing for a character to tell a story. I cared about what the inside of something looked like, and I cared about the eighth-inch thing that nobody in the audience can see because I thought that it helped the actor feel more intimate with the clothing, and that's one thing uh I can say safely about Coco's work. To me, what makes her a signature artist is that her finish is breathtaking.

Literally, it's the kind of thing where it makes you want to cry when you see the finish is so. And also I have to say, when you go to Coco to talk about the project, you know, there are some people that uh they don't want it, they just want to know where the zipper is. You know what I mean? And then there are some people that want to know the story because I think by repeating where the characters come from, where they're going, what the arc of the vision is, they figure out how they're gonna add to that, how they can be not just a dressmaker, even though that's a very high calling, but they're a dressmaker who's also a storyteller. So that's kind of uh and can I say something about Roy just while I have the microphone?

[9:42] Bianca Del Rio: For sure, for sure. Go for it.

[9:44] Gregg Barnes: Oh god. When Roy blew in to Barbara Matera's, and I I think of Roy as being the sweetest man I know and also the most talented man I know. Perfect description. And um, you know, fascinating. All you had to do was just look at him and know that you think there's a lot of tables in this room, but the one I want to be at for the next hour is where that guy is working. My mom always used to say that people generally when they enter a room, they either suck the life out of the room or they bring life into the room, and to seek for the people that bring are that bring life. And Roy and Coco are that's who they are.

[10:27] Bianca Del Rio: Well, I must tell you, I must tell you this. I was I was a huge fan of Gregg Barnes' work, and there's a book called Costume Designer that was that is a it's a great book, but they used to have a cover on it. But I remember going to Barnes and Noble on 70, I think it was 72nd, I believe it was, uh in New York, and I went there and I didn't have money for the book, so I stole the book from Barnes and Noble, and I still have the book to this day. So I knew of Gregg's work way back then. I mean, this is pre-Google, this is pre-internet. You know, we didn't have any of that back then.

[11:03] Devario D. Simmons: So, Roy, you were at Cygnet working, and then Bianca took over. How long were you at Cygnet before Bianca took over?

[11:12] Bianca Del Rio: I had been in drag for quite some time. Uh, it was just that once we left Barbara Matera and Coco opened her own shop.

[11:18] Bianca Del Rio: I came aboard there because you know, it was like, okay, what do we do in this city? Like, this is what we do, this is what it's about. She took, you know, a huge risk of saying, hey, let me do this company. And when I worked at Materas, I didn't work with Coco. I had another boss there, but then we lived near each other uptown, and so it just seemed to make sense. So it was like, sure, let's do it. You know, I wasn't gonna get a real job doing something else normal. Uh that usually doesn't work out for me. So um, yeah, we started working there, and it was basically she and I, you know, she was in charge and draping, and I was there to cut things out and put things together. So drag had always been a part of my life.

But when the time came for her shop, I was there a couple of years, and then in 2013 is when I did RuPaul's Drag Race, which kind of changed the game for me then. But up until then, and even after filming, which how happened in 2013 is when I filmed it, um, I was still back at the shop until my travel schedule kind of took over. And then it was also like, you know, it was one of those things where you just created these relationships, and then it was just a huge part of my life. So, you know, as I was working for her and she was paying me, it was helping me, and it was an outlet, and it was, you know, there's just something about, I think, when you're working with very talented people, I always say you're only as good as the company you keep.

So you'd be an asshole not to work with Coco or with Greg or to even learn from them. Because I'm just fascinated with the process and the choices they make and you know, the skill set, you know, it's like anytime you can have a conversation with them, sit down, ask a question, and they're more than willing to answer it. And also uh compromise. I mean, they're brilliant with compromising. I think that's what, especially when you're designing something, you have your vision, and Greg was always all ears, and Coco was, oh, what about this? What about that? It I think that that's probably the most important thing that you can ever learn from talented people. I also, I'd also like to say that, you know, the work that we do, both Greg and I, it involves um working with a lot of people.

Some of them are easy to work with, some of them are not easy to work with. But with someone like Roy, all of the work that we do together, there's a joy and a positivity working with him. And with Greg also, it's one of the reasons I love both of these men. But Roy, as Greg was saying, in that process, in that work process, even when it's a difficult job or or something is asymmetrical, Roy. Oh, I'm sorry. That's a whole nother story. Oh even then, he's such a joy to work with. Um, that you, you know, going into work and making these things, uh, it really makes a difference to surround yourself uh with people who uh who are funny, who can make you laugh and and uh and still do uh still do the work.

And that's one of the great things about Royce is he has both of those things. Now don't cross him. Yeah, well, yeah. No, but I think I think I I agree with what you say. And you know, anytime Greg makes anything, I you know, you can't help but put it on. You know, we have you have to try it on.

[14:30] Bianca Del Rio: We always put it on. Um, so it's just it's an amazing, it's just for me, as I said, you know, I was this this kid who stole a book from a library, getting to work with these people that made everything that I've ever seen or knew as costume, you know, and and not that I planned on being a drag queen, but I always had such uh uh passion about clothes and how they're made. And you know, I mean, I'm coming from a place where I'm putting in zippers from Miss Mary Martin at a dinner theater, not even knowing what I'm doing, but just doing it. And through that, the skill set that I learned from these two people about design and also construction was just, I mean, that's stuff you don't learn in school, you know. You don't learn that at FIT. You don't learn that uh unless it's hands-on, you know.

[15:10] Coco Dupont: I agree completely. I mean, actually, the three of us are sort of uh a good example of that. Um, Greg, of course, you went on to to study at NYU, but your talent was there. Roy, you just were born with it. And I didn't study at all. I uh, you know, I learned to sew from my mother. I was a stay at home mom for 19 years. Wow. I I went and I applied for work at Materas and they were busy, so they hired me. It was a fluke, honestly. It the work the work appealed to me, and I happened to have a natural capacity, but I never thought I wanted to be a dancer for God's sakes, you know. And then, and then I got pregnant and had five children. So the three of us, I think, came to this work in a very unusual path. We didn't, we didn't choose it per se. Which is interesting. And we, you know, we all love it.

[16:18] Bianca Del Rio: The Costume Industry Coalition was launched to advocate for the survival of New York City's custom costume industry. Collectively, CIC members employ hundreds of artisans and costuming experts. Their costumes are seen on stages and screen worldwide. To learn more about CIC and how you can get involved, or make a taxed deductible donation, please visit www.costumeindustrycoalition.com. In these trying times, many are not in the position to give, but you can always help by spreading the work.

[16:56] Devario D. Simmons: So, Roy, you win drag race.

[16:59] Bianca Del Rio: Yeah.

[16:59] Devario D. Simmons: You're in drag race season six. You start producing and writing and doing your own movies, and you have the opportunity to call up some friends. And so Greg designed a beautiful dress. Can we get some background on this gown that um Greg designed for you?

[17:17] Bianca Del Rio: Well, it was it was a weird situation because when we were working at Materas one day, well, the thing was you always knew Greg was in the shop when you'd hear his cackle. Greg has the best cackle. And Greg and another brilliant artist by the name of Jeff Fender, uh, when they would come into the shop together, nothing would get accomplished because you hear two gays cackling and I go running. So one day, uh one day after work, I remember we were all around shooting the shit, because I would usually stay after work to do whatever the hell I was trying to get done for myself. So it's after hours where we're cackling, and there was something that came up once about a wedding. It was something about a wedding dress, and I said, you know, I need a wedding dress.

We're all cackling about me getting married because the deal was at Barbara Matera, anybody who worked there usually had a dress designed by someone, and then it was made in the shop free of charge. And I'm like, well, how the hell do I get one of these dresses? Like, you know, I'm never gonna get married, but I'm thinking, you know what? Let me get a free dress out of this game. So I kept thinking, no one's gonna marry me. So let me think on this. Cut two years later, uh, my friend Matt Kougerman uh had written this film. And so right after Drag Race, it all happens. And I Greg was at the shop one day with Coco, and we were just cackling about this and this. And Greg's like, what you gonna wear?

He said, So we he said something about doing a dress for me. And I'm like, okay, well, I don't know the whole plot because I haven't read the script yet, but this dress is going in the show. Whatever it is, we're gonna make this happen. So Greg sent like a pencil sketch of something, and like, all right. Oh, well I was thinking, you know, this is very Bianca, and I'm like, sold. He's like, well, this isn't the sketch. I go, no, no, we're good, we're good, we're good. So I tell my friend Matt Kugerman, I go, I don't care what the F happens in this movie, we have to find a way to put me in this dress. And he's like, oh, this is perfect, you know, all about the villain and coming in and this glamorous moment.

So um, so that's basically how how it happened. And you know, when you're doing like an independent film, there is no money, there's nothing uh, you know, that can happen. But here it was as a favor. These two made this magic happen for me. We were all uh uh what the four musketeers. Um I should be involved. And but you know what's so amazing about uh, you know, Jeff, Coco, and Greg is that it's literally nothing is a problem. And I I don't know if if that translates to anyone else, but it's like, oh, it's gonna be silk. Okay, no, we should make it out of this. Oh, we're gonna paint this. So we think it should be this type of velvet, and nothing is ever that's a problem. I think I come from a place, especially as a drag queen, you know, there's never enough time, there's never enough money.

This is what you're stuck with at the store. They made it happen. I mean, Jeff Fender's like, well, we can paint all of that fabric. I'm like, who, what the how? Like, but it's just effortless for all of them to go, oh, we can do this, we can do that. And there was um uh a slight change in the dress where Coco was like, Well, I think this would look better on Bianca around because it's a drag queen. I think it should be smoother here, uh, to to accentuate. And Greg was like, perfect, I like that better. So it was this collaborative effort, but yet they make it so easy. I remember I was in Texas filming the movie because it had cheap tax laws for us to film there. So it's boiling in Texas, and I'm already like maybe a week into it.

Coco had sent a mock-up for me to uh, you know, to fit the dress so we fit it in one of the classrooms we were in. We sent her fitting photos, they congregate and make the magic. Then the dress is sent to me. And I had been in Texas, I think at that point, like two weeks, sweating, sweating my ass off in the middle of summer, just like, eh, and you know, complaining every day. A typical me, a movie for me, about me. I'm in every scene and I'm complaining. Typical. So in the midst of this, this dress shows up, and this dress is so amazing. I I it was just like, okay, I I didn't feel any elements. I was suddenly cool, I stopped complaining. I I mean, I'm in velvet out in the sun, going, This is fine.

I dread Barnes Velvet, I'm fine. So yeah, it was it was amazing to get to wear, and I of course, I still have it. I always say I'm gonna keep it for a drag museum at some point in my life because I go, ooh, this is mine.

[21:20] Devario D. Simmons: Yes, I love that. Greg, what was our inspiration when you started designing that dress for your then friend?

[21:26] Gregg Barnes: Like you all were friends by then.

[21:28] Gregg Barnes: We had to become a family. How was that? Um, you know, it was funny. One one little step in the process that Roy beautifully spoke about in terms of how it came about. We had dinner at Coco's. And if you ever get a chance, designing a dress is nothing to get to eat dinner at Coco's house.

[21:48] Gregg Barnes: I get of the things I would do to have dinner at Coco's house. The dress is nothing. I mean, that's just uh she's the most incredible cook. But somebody at the table said something about a moment where when the when BO and the hurricane, I said, what does it mean hurricane, Bianca? And they were like, well, she's gonna come down this dusty road and she's gonna be pissed. And she's, you know, it's like she's full-blown, you know, the the the sweet tart is tart. Yes, yes. So I I started to like look at the ages of Roy, uh Bianca, and uh he had a dress with a hood.

[22:34] Bianca Del Rio: So I thought, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's good for vengeance, you know. Um, and I uh I don't know, I just uh uh the the ham of the dress um is all uh hand-painted China's book that's like the summoning of a storm. So that we've got our hurricane going on. So it's a little bit fashion, it's a lot, Roy. So we ended up, I and actually Coco made it much better than I drew it, but I thought there should be some angry slashing going on here. So we uh if you know the dress, it's got the on the hips, it's got the, it looks like a tiger has come and like, you know, rent dress. You know, and then the bust the best, also. Yeah, yeah. They're they're a little tear moogler, you know. So anyway, it's like a potpourri.

It's a it's a stew of, you know, a lot of things. And it was funny that we didn't see Roy in it. Uh I never saw Roy in it because he was gone. I didn't either. Yeah. And but I knew it uh when I saw it on the dress stand, I thought, this is gonna be so fucking fierce. You know, and you know, as I said before, the crazy thing is that even though I worked in the costume shop, and even though, you know, I had access to all of this stuff, we always call it there was this, there's this in-between construction, you know, uh the clothes that Coco makes, it's couture. I mean, this is like made for Broadway, it's it's and and ballet, and it's meant to, you know, hold up eight performances a week. And so here I was a drag queen, which normally it's just throw the fabric on the floor, cut it out, make it work.

Uh, maybe it has a zipper, maybe it has a hem. So I was in that in-between phase where it was like, okay, well, you can do it right up until this point, but then you realize, you know, we don't have the couture hours. We don't have the schedule, we don't have the time. So I would usually do a lot of that myself. So this is the first time I had anything that was exquisitely made and draped and bus cups and boning that was done for me that I had nothing to do with. So usually I'm wrangled up in there trying to make it myself. So this was the first time that I was that um that that little fancy girl that had this custom dress, you know. So it was, it was it was like this amazing full circle moment for me because I know what it takes.

And knowing the ladies that put it together that I've worked with many, many times, it was just it was just this amazing little um grouping of everything and everybody I knew. So I felt very special in it. Yeah, Bianca got her wedding dress. I got my wedding dress. I just need to get the man, but I got so good.

[25:16] Coco Dupont: So like right now in where the times that we're living, hopefully we're coming out of such an unfortunate time. And uh we're hoping and it's looking like live entertainments coming back. And Coco, I want to ask you about Signet Studios and how it's doing and how you all weathered um the pandemic.

[25:37] Coco Dupont: Well, that's a that's a uh a tricky question, actually, because uh we during this time um basically decided that we didn't really want to be in New York anymore. So, although we still have our apartment in New York, it is on the market, and we had um actually moved the studio from our space on 39th Street to our brownstone in Harlem. So we had already scaled down a little bit. Then when the pandemic hit, on a certain level, we were one of the fortunate ones because we didn't have to pay rent. Um, of course, my stitchers, they could go on unemployment, but and that was un you know, unfortunate, but at least they were covered with that, like all the other stitchers at um in the costume shops. But at that time, we basically decided that we didn't really want to be in New York.

So we bought a beautiful house in Vermont, which I am at right now, and which Roy came up and helped me um set up a studio here. So I think that we have become one of those studios that are going to work outside of New York. That said, I'm available. I'll come to New York. You know, Greg, if you have a project that you're gonna bring to one of my competitors, tell them I'll come and work for them, just so I can work for you.

[27:10] Gregg Barnes: Well, I think I think that's where we all are. It's like, you know, this pandemic in in in general has just shown us that obviously everyone is doing things virtually. Everything is everybody's doing things from home. So it's kind of like this crazy uh moment where you're like, uh there was a time when I thought, well, you can't not make this in New York, or you can't not travel and do fitting. It's crazy what we're doing. Look what we're doing now, you know. It is fascinating. So it's making the best of the situation. So I think this is a good thing without the stress of having, you know, the New York rents or being in the city, which is obviously extremely overwhelming for everyone right now. The world is most definitely changing in in every way possible.

[27:54] Devario D. Simmons: Um, in closing, I just want to ask all three of you if you want to uh share any new things on the docket that's gonna be coming up for you all.

[28:03] Bianca Del Rio: Well, uh, yeah. Well, I think everything is everything has been on hold for the world. You know, no, everything has been on hold for the past year. And you know, I've been hoping to get back, I don't want to say normal because I don't think the world is going to be normal again, which is maybe a good thing. I think this uh cultural reset, this this pause we've had. I had been on the road since drag race, so this was the first time I had been home for a year, but um uh yeah, everything was on hold, and slowly now things are kind of maybe turning around, which fingers crossed happens soon. So I have a new tour that I'm hoping to travel with by the end of the year if routing and all that works out.

Um, but I'm used to working in in in venues where you have, you know, 1500 to 2,000 people, and with this social distancing and I do meet and greets every night, we haven't been able to do that. And there's it's really horrible for comedy to be in a thousand-seat venue with four people. Although I've had it, I've had it in my life. Trust me. Um, that it's it's that type of thing. So we're just kind of waiting for the world to open back up. Uh uh, I'm still mad at Australia because they're living their lives right now, they're all in clubs dancing a lady gaga. That's the real tragedy. But I um I I'm fingers crossed, hoping that we can get back to live theater at some point. And I think Coco, and I'm sure Coco and Greg feel the same way.

It's like as creatives, as creatives, you have to have an outlet, you know, and and there's only so much we can do for ourselves. So we have to go create. So uh I've been doing things I didn't expect to do over the past year, but fingers crossed for new and exciting projects to come.

[29:32] Coco Dupont: The thing for me is that I do hope to do more costume work. I really do. I love the work, and it'd be very sad for me to not do it. But as Roy said, I'm a maker, I'm a doer, I cook, I'm a crazy avid gardener, and uh that is where most of my creative energy is going right now. Like some of the other big shop owners, Barbara was a big gardener. Um, you know, many of them are. We find, no matter what the situation is, pandemic or otherwise, we create, we make. And I'm sure Greg feels the same way. And I hope, I hope that I find myself with some projects. But if not, I'll keep making things. And I'll make dinner, Greg, come visit. I've been to the house, you would love it, Greg.

[30:22] Gregg Barnes: I've actually got a few, uh quite a few things percolating. And uh one thing I'll say to the if there are designers watching this, which I imagine there will be, I'm 40 almost 46. 64. Sorry. But I'm 54. And my whole career life for the last I've been in New York 41 years. And so for the first time in my life, I've been able to uh on this project I'm working about, which I don't think I should mention the name of it, but it's a new musical and it's big and it's gonna be challenging because nobody's gonna obviously have any money. But I've been able to do it in a more civilized way. I have nothing but time. So if there's a problem that I'm not sure how to solve, I can let it, you know, um percolate.

I don't have to solve the problem because it has to be in Coco's hands in the morning, you know. So that's just the nature of what we do. And um, and also for me, even though I'm I'm I'm trying to find the silver lining to COVID, which I'm not sure there really is one, but bear with me, is that um, you know, everybody that I know at a certain point, we find ourselves huddled in a corner saying, why are we still doing this? Why are we still doing this? Can't we do anything else? And I hope I never say that again. I hope that I've found a way to organize my cluttered mind so that I am always, you know, you brought up the word joy, um, Coco, and I think it's too you can't approach that lightning.

You have to find a place to work from a place of joy. It affects the work. Um, but more importantly, it you know, otherwise you're just a crazy person with, you know, a lot of bad compulsive habits. So to survive, you know. So anyway, I hope that um I hope that at the end of all this we have some peace and some joy and uh get to make beautiful things and you know, work with beautiful people.

[32:37] Devario D. Simmons: Same. I want to thank you three for being with me today. You know, I this what I get out of this conversation is just that I keep hearing no problem, no problem, no problem. It's and I love that. And it reminds me of a quote of uh one of my old professors that used to say, champions adjust. Um, and I really, really think that everyone here has found a way to adjust. So thank you so much um for being with us today. This has been Into Costume. Thanks to the Broadway Podcast Network for their support. If you have any feedback on today's episode, find us on our Twitter handle at Into Costume. We'd love to hear from you. If you'd like to learn more about the Costume Industry Coalition, please visit their website at CostumeIndustryCoalition.com. Remember to subscribe and rate on whatever platform you're using and join us again next time for more stories to get you into costume. Thanks for listening.