This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Tommy: Ready! You satisfied? Um, yeah. Ha ha ha ha.

[0:10] Jimi: How do we start this? I don't know.

[0:13] Tommy: I mean, so, people, I assume, perhaps, narcissistically, that people listening to this thing may know who I am. Yeah, well, one of them will know who I am, because someone just commented on one of my videos that they found me through you.

[0:29] Jimi: What? That's awesome! So there you go.

[0:32] Tommy: That's awesome. So, for the listeners, this is the voice of Tommy, the voice of Mr. Musical Mash. I'm on YouTube. Hello. And this is the voice of Jimi, who doesn't have his musical theatre-y name, but as in Hendrix, because that's just how I spell my name, on YouTube. Fledgling. And you should go find his videos and flood them with comments about how he should do more videos. Internet.

[0:56] Jimi: I will. So, I'm just doing this in the meantime, you know.

[1:00] Tommy: That's a good introduction. This is like speed dating.

[1:02] Jimi: It is. Next!

[1:06] Tommy: Speed dating podcast YouTubers. Exactly. The first of their kind.

[1:09] Jimi: The first of their kind. We want to talk about Hamilton today.

[1:13] Tommy: Because what else would you talk about at the moment?

[1:15] Jimi: I mean, we could probably talk about Hamilton forever and ever.

[1:19] Tommy: The Hamilton mixtape, we could call it, and just make a podcast about Hamilton.

[1:24] Jimi: I literally just found this when you were setting your Skype up. I'm going to send it to you. It is crowdsourced, annotated.

[1:31] Tommy: Right, yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, guess what? We're going to talk about lyrics.

[1:35] Jimi: I was going to say, I just want to preface this by going to Genius.

[1:40] Tommy: Let's hold that off to lyrics, because what do we want to talk about first? The premise.

[1:43] Jimi: The premise. And I said that that is your responsibility, because you are a resident Yank.

[1:49] Tommy: So it is my responsibility because I went to U.S. history class and you didn't.

[1:55] Jimi: Exactly. Well, don't say it like I had a choice.

[1:57] Tommy: Because you ditched out on U.S. history class for years and years and years.

[2:02] Jimi: Us Brits aren't painted very well in this show.

[2:05] Tommy: So when we do the podcast about the musical where the queen raps, then you can do this.

[2:12] Jimi: That's mine. Okay, that's all mine. I call dibs right now.

[2:16] Tommy: I'm sure that's what Lin-Manuel's working on next.

[2:19] Jimi: Well, I think, yeah, I think Andrew Lloyd Webber is getting in on the whole rap thing.

[2:23] Tommy: Yeah.

[2:24] Jimi: And is going to queen that stuff up.

[2:26] Tommy: Well, I mean, he queens everything up, really.

[2:29] Jimi: I mean, I showed you those videos.

[2:34] Tommy: I enjoy—so in Sondheim on Sondheim, which everyone should read, he starts off each chapter by giving, like, a sentence of what the premise of that musical is.

[2:45] Jimi: As a non-Yank, what do you think—what would be your sentence summary of what Hamilton is about?

[2:52] Tommy: I mean, I would find it really hard to just not quote him in this about the $10 founding father and his, you know, what Lin-Manuel always describes as his hip-hop life, you know, and his kind of rise to the top and then his brief kind of exit out again. But it's just a chronicle of his life.

[3:15] Jimi: See, and I don't know, something about me never wants to call it a biography. And it is a biography, I guess. I mean, it's based on a biography. But it seems, you know, if I went to someone who had never seen the show before and said, yeah, it's a musical biography of Alexander Hamilton.

[3:35] Tommy: Right.

[3:36] Jimi: I feel like that does the show a bit of an injustice.

[3:39] Tommy: Yeah, it's one of those things. I think if you said that about anything, it instantly sounds like, cool, because it's just going to feel like, you know, point in history, point in history, point in history, point in—you dot through it that way.

[3:51] Jimi: Right.

[3:52] Tommy: It feels like—do you have Schoolhouse Rock? Do you know what Schoolhouse Rock is?

[3:56] Jimi: Nope.

[3:57] Tommy: I'm good with my American references, but that one—

[4:00] Jimi: Well, for our UK listeners and our American listeners who may not know, Schoolhouse Rock was like a 70s Saturday morning educational cartoon. And it would be like a song about conjunctions. And it'd be like, and, but, nor, they'll get you pretty far. And like, you know, or like a song about your nervous system. And ooh, it's how your nerves work. And the first time I listened to Hamilton, like three seconds into the first song, I was like, oh no, this is going to be US history Schoolhouse Rock about Alexander Hamilton.

[4:37] Jimi: And it's so much more than that.

[4:38] Tommy: It really is.

[4:39] Jimi: It really, really is. Because that's the thing. I think what is so good about it is it's not just about him.

[4:46] Tommy: You get to see so much of all of the other people in his life.

[4:51] Jimi: Well, it's also contemporary in really difficult-to-describe ways. Like all of the hip-hop and rap references that it makes, and even just all the musical theatre and contemporary references that it makes, are more than just in-jokes.

[5:07] Tommy: Right.

[5:07] Jimi: They're so intelligent.

[5:09] Tommy: Yeah.

[5:10] Jimi: And they feel like commentary.

[5:12] Tommy: It's not just like when Shrek makes a Wicked reference, and you're like, oh, Wicked, I recognize that.

[5:16] Jimi: But it's intentional.

[5:20] Tommy: Yeah, exactly. And I don't know, I feel that I watched some videos the other day, like interviews with Lin, and he was saying that, for example, with "My Shot," apparently it took him a year to write.

[5:30] Jimi: Do you know what I mean?

[5:32] Tommy: Yeah. And if you go into it, and if you look on Genius, and I recommend every single person listening to just spend a whole day just going through that, because you can spend a day, and just look at every single line. Obviously, there's that lovely repeated phrase in "My Shot," but every single line, you know he spent so long working out and working out why that line should be there.

[5:53] Jimi: Yeah. I love that.

[5:54] Tommy: Yeah, there is such attention to detail with this musical, and it's so packed. Did you see that article about the speed of musicals?

[6:04] Jimi: They did like a word count versus time count chart of Hamilton versus a bunch of other things.

[6:10] Tommy: Yes.

[6:11] Jimi: And Hamilton was just massive.

[6:14] Tommy: It's like the red bar went off of the page.

[6:17] Jimi: If you sang Hamilton at the speed of a normal musical, it would be like five hours long or something ridiculous.

[6:23] Tommy: I couldn't remember what was the next one down. I think there was one song that was faster than the songs they measured, and it was "Not Getting Married Today" from Company.

[6:33] Jimi: Right, okay. But all of Company is not as fast as "Not Getting Married Today."

[6:37] Tommy: No, exactly. So yeah, I guess as a way of defining it into a brief, this is what it is, maybe you just can't.

[6:46] Jimi: It's so hard.

[6:48] Tommy: Yeah, you do just need to listen to it, don't you?

[6:51] Jimi: Yeah, I think it is the... well, and you're the $10 founding father without a father, I think does maybe the best justice you can to describing it.

[7:01] Tommy: But do you know what? It took me a long time to realize that. I just thought it meant that he was poor. I didn't realize that he was actually on the $10 bill, but brief research told me otherwise. I knew that Alexander Hamilton was a founding father.

[7:17] Jimi: I didn't know anything about him.

[7:18] Tommy: But see, I think that's one of the delightful things about Hamilton is you don't need to know anything about US history to enjoy this show.

[7:26] Jimi: You really don't.

[7:27] Tommy: It's good if you do, though.

[7:28] Jimi: Yeah, I'm sure. I was chatting with our US history teacher, and she has been following this show for nine years since Lin-Manuel was at the White House doing it.

[7:41] Tommy: She just geeks out over all the historical stuff and how accurate it is.

[7:45] Jimi: That's amazing.

[7:46] Tommy: She says almost every time they're writing a letter to each other, it is verbatim from an actual real piece of history.

[7:55] Jimi: Yep.

[7:56] Tommy: Which is awesome. That's the thing about it as well. It can cater to anyone. It can cater to, you know, oh, you're into musical theatre, then oh, you're gonna like it.

[8:05] Jimi: Yeah.

[8:05] Tommy: You're into hip hop. Cool. You're into history. That literally covers the three types of people you could be.

[8:11] Jimi: Right.

[8:12] Tommy: I don't know where you could fit anywhere else. And no one of those groups is offended by the existence of the other content in it.

[8:22] Jimi: Exactly.

[8:23] Tommy: It all works. If you're listening to this podcast and have not listened to Hamilton, what is wrong with you?

[8:29] Jimi: Yeah, I know. That's the thing. You shouldn't listen to this until you've listened to the recording.

[8:33] Tommy: At least once.

[8:34] Jimi: I mean, come on.

[8:35] Tommy: At least once. You have two hours of your life to spare for this.

[8:39] Jimi: Everyone should. And what I think's really cool is that I know Lin has said that you should listen to the cast recording before you go see the show.

[8:45] Tommy: I didn't know he said that. That's really interesting.

[8:49] Jimi: Yeah, and I love that because that's always a turmoil that I always go into. So I'm like, ah, do I want to just, or do I take in and know what I'm going to expect?

[9:00] Tommy: Yeah.

[9:00] Jimi: I guess there's arguments for both. But I can understand for this why, because you're going to miss so much if you just go see it because you're getting the spectacle as well as the onslaught of all of this. Just so many words. Amazing dialogue.

[9:15] Tommy: Yeah, exactly. So I would just say, just listen to it right now.

[9:18] Jimi: Yeah. And then hopefully at one point in your life, you'll actually get to see the damn thing.

[9:23] Tommy: Hopefully.

[9:23] Jimi: After you mortgage your house and, you know.

[9:28] Tommy: Exactly. So, speaking of Lin-Manuel, we have, Jimi and I have set up these very loose categories of premise, cast, lyrics, and critical reception that we want to talk about.

[9:42] Jimi: Very loose.

[9:43] Tommy: I always wonder if this show will succeed without Lin-Manuel.

[9:47] Jimi: Right.

[9:48] Tommy: But, yeah. Well, what about Heights? Think about Heights, because obviously it's so similar in terms of, you know, he's there, he wrote it, it's groundbreaking, and he's the leading man.

[9:59] Jimi: Yeah, I think, but he's so much more pivotal in this, I think, than he is in the Heights.

[10:04] Tommy: Yeah.

[10:05] Jimi: It'd be interesting because I know, I think once a week he swaps out for Javier Muñoz, is his name.

[10:10] Tommy: Yes.

[10:11] Jimi: But I don't know, it's funny because he's obviously playing a historic figure. Whereas Usnavi is, you get much more Lin, I think, from Usnavi.

[10:22] Tommy: Yeah, Usnavi is basically Lin-Manuel Miranda in a musical.

[10:26] Jimi: Right. I think you could make an argument that Alexander Hamilton, at least as far as Miranda has written him, is also just Lin-Manuel Miranda in a musical.

[10:37] Tommy: I know.

[10:38] Jimi: I mean, there's definitely elements.

[10:39] Tommy: Yeah, I don't know, I'd be interested to see.

[10:41] Jimi: Yeah, how it does. I can't remember, how long was he in Heights for?

[10:45] Tommy: In the Heights? A couple years, I think. I think he stuck with that for a while.

[10:49] Jimi: Yeah, I can see him doing the same thing.

[10:52] Tommy: Until he has, like, another kid or...

[10:54] Jimi: Yeah, wants to buy another house.

[10:56] Tommy: Right. I also, I never knew, like, In the Heights workshopped a whole bunch. You know, it started in Connecticut in '05.

[11:04] Jimi: And I think Lin-Manuel was just Usnavi in all of them.

[11:08] Tommy: So even by the time it hit Broadway, he was doing that character for a couple years.

[11:12] Jimi: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I don't know. I look forward to Corbin Bleu coming in and tearing off as Alexander Hamilton.

[11:19] Tommy: Corbin Bleu is Alexander Hamilton.

[11:22] Jimi: It's just obviously what's gonna happen.

[11:23] Tommy: Beyond talking about Lin-Manuel Miranda as author and actor in this, I also want to talk about Lin-Manuel Miranda as internet presence.

[11:33] Jimi: Because I think that absolutely contributes to a lot of the hype around this show, is the fact that I can type into my web browser, Lin-Manuel Miranda's Tumblr, and it exists.

[11:43] Tommy: And he's there on the internet, doing things and talking with people, in a very real and legitimate way.

[11:51] Jimi: It's amazing. I directed the Scottish premiere of In the Heights. Amateur premiere, you know, not that. I'm tooting my own horn here, Jimi.

[12:02] Tommy: Exactly.

[12:03] Jimi: But he was so good in publicizing us and communicating with us. And we're an island across the Atlantic, do you know what I mean?

[12:11] Tommy: Yeah.

[12:11] Jimi: And he was amazing. And it's so great. And he does that for everyone. If you tweet him a question about one of his lyrics, he'll be back to you in about 10 minutes time.

[12:21] Tommy: Which is awesome.

[12:22] Jimi: Well, I feel like that's his jam, too. There was some article I was reading where I forget who was talking about him. When the president and the first lady were coming to see the show, Lin-Manuel Miranda wasn't nervous. And when the critics were coming to see the show, he wasn't nervous. And when his friends weren't coming to see the show, he wasn't nervous. But the first teenager matinee, the first school performance, he was quaking in his boots and like, everything has to be right. This is the performance that matters.

[12:50] Tommy: And that's awesome.

[12:51] Jimi: Exactly. Well, he gets it. I mean, that's so true.

[12:54] Tommy: Yeah.

[12:54] Jimi: Tweens really own a lot of musical theater weight nowadays.

[12:58] Tommy: It's very true.

[12:59] Jimi: And as much as the old geezer musical theater folk out there, who I adore, love this show, the kids go crazy for this show.

[13:09] Tommy: Exactly.

[13:09] Jimi: And I think that is where you've hit the nail on the head. That is where Lin-Manuel, as an internet phenomenon as well, feeds right into it.

[13:18] Tommy: Yeah. And with all of his Ham4Ham stuff, which is all about, here's a free performance for you, internet, of pretty much the show without lights.

[13:29] Jimi: String together all the Ham4Hams now and just watch the whole show. Just watch the show in a very low-key scale. But yeah, it's really true. It's really, really true. And I think as well, what I really like about Lin-Manuel is his, he is a self-proclaimed Broadway geek. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? He is happy to spout about that. I think that, again, is what the tweens are like, yes, he's one of us, you know? Like, that is what's so interesting to me, is that it's really easy to say Lin-Manuel Miranda gets it, whatever it is about musical theatre. But Lin-Manuel Miranda also is it. He is, in so many ways, contemporary musical theatre, what is happening on Broadway right now. And to have both of those in the same package is just, you know, it's beautiful.

It's more than the world deserves. We could, again, we could write another podcast about Lin-Manuel. Lin-Manuel Miranda, the podcast. I don't know what we'd call that. I'll think of some sort of witty thing. Who else can we talk about in the cast? Because everyone's so good.

[14:32] Tommy: You've written here, superstars, David Diggs.

[14:35] Jimi: Yeah, in other words, David Diggs. Because he, again, to use the phrase, he blew me away. I remember the first time I listened to it, I screamed when Lafayette came on for the first time. And it's in "Guns and Ships." That tore me up. It's so good. And instantly I was like, give me the lyrics. I want to learn it. Fantastic. But just what I really love about David Diggs is, I guess, kind of where he came from. You know, he was a rapper and kind of small-town rap man and then auditioned for the show. And now he's this huge guy on Broadway. And I wouldn't be surprised at a nomination. I really wouldn't. So the fact that he is Lafayette in Act One, spitting all these super fast "Guns and Ships" rhymes, and then beginning of Act Two, he comes in as this jazzy, toe-tapping Thomas Jefferson.

[15:29] Tommy: Exactly. And taking it all in stride as well. It really excites me. It really, really excites me. I'm articulating as we're talking. But yeah, there was one that was on the New York Post. Yeah, it was saying, sure beats your old place to be, Diggs brother joked when he saw the Hamilton Stars Washington Heights apartment. That's not saying much. Diggs' old place was the number two train because he would basically sleep on the train when he was in between apartments. And now in hit Broadway show, at least up for a Tony nomination, if not grabbing that thing. All of the casting of the show to forego casting, you know, Broadway names in the roles proves that you do not need the star power that some contemporary musicals strive so hard to achieve. Case and point. There are talented people everywhere.

[16:26] Jimi: Exactly. Just cast talented people because it'll change it. Just do that. It's fine. Although Jonathan Groff rocks King George.

[16:37] Tommy: Yeah, but that's fine. But again, what I loved about that is like, I can totally witness the conversation that Lin-Manuel and Jonathan Groff would have just had over that because they're just such good mates. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I love that. It's just like, do you want to just come? But yeah, so David Diggs is my hit man. Who's yours?

[16:54] Jimi: I adore Philippa Soo.

[16:57] Tommy: Right. Okay.

[16:58] Jimi: To play opposite Lin-Manuel Miranda, who, you know, we've already been gushing about him for almost, you know, a million hours now. That on its own must be absolutely intimidating. But she rocks Elizabeth Schuyler.

[17:14] Tommy: She does.

[17:14] Jimi: And her, what is it, "Burn" at the end?

[17:17] Tommy: Oh, yes.

[17:18] Jimi: Is devastating. Is just so... I haven't been moved by a musical theater song like that in a long, long time. I mean, maybe the first time I listened to "No One Is Alone" from "Into the Woods" and had never heard it before. To have such a strong... I think ladies, like in most places in the world, get some of the short end of the stick in musical theater roles. They're always, you know, a lot of times weaker characters, a lot of times following their male counterparts around, but not Elizabeth Schuyler. And Philippa Soo does a great job.

[17:56] Tommy: That's the thing, what I love about Eliza and Angelica is in this kind of, like, contemporary setting where feminism is your hot topic. It's funny, I had a really big discussion with my friends recently about them and they were bringing up, you know, the Bechdel test and saying, oh, it doesn't pass the Bechdel test, so therefore, you know, it's anti-feminist. And I'm like, right, just we'll stop for a second. Okay. The show is called Hamilton.

[18:23] Jimi: Right.

[18:24] Tommy: If they were going to have a conversation between the two of them, but it wasn't about him, there's no point in that being in the show because where's the context for it?

[18:32] Jimi: Yeah.

[18:32] Tommy: Also, I've argued that it does pass because, very briefly, at the start of "The Schuyler Sisters," Angelica says to her sisters, the revolution is happening in New York. That's not talking anything about men. That's just talking about a revolution.

[18:46] Jimi: That's true. That's true. Well, I also think it would be really easy to not talk about women at all in a story of the white male founding fathers of America. And the fact that not only that all the Schuyler Sisters and everyone else is in it, but that they're super powerful and meaningful characters. And the fact that we end with Elizabeth writing down Hamilton's story, inserting herself back into the narrative, gives her so much importance in this narrative.

[19:21] Tommy: Yeah. And it's one of those things I think is great because Angelica and Eliza, to some extent, as well, are just such an amazing voice for women. You know, they're highly intelligent women, highly intelligent. And obviously that's represented in everything that they're singing and they're saying. They're so in touch with what's happening at that time. And the Schuyler Sisters themselves were so, well, those two were so influential in history, if you kind of delve in and you go see. But like, you know, it says it in the show, Elizabeth Schuyler created the first public orphanage for children in New York. That's huge. That in itself is revolutionary.

[19:58] Jimi: Did you read some quote from Lin-Manuel Miranda? The first orphanage that she created was in Washington Heights.

[20:08] Tommy: Well, there you go.

[20:08] Jimi: And for about a hot second, the show ended with them saying, And she created the first orphanage in Washington Heights! Blackout! He's like, no, no, I can't. I can't do that.

[20:20] Tommy: He couldn't, no.

[20:22] Jimi: That wouldn't go over well.

[20:23] Tommy: Yeah. He could have had a nod, but that's it. That's it.

[20:33] Jimi: Well, you're in Camp Philippa, I'm in Camp Renée.

[20:35] Tommy: Yeah.

[20:36] Jimi: Yeah. Just, I instantly, I was like, I've got an affinity with you, Miss Angelica. I just think Renée is so good. Did you see her recently, as in yesterday, in the BET Hip Hop Awards?

[20:50] Tommy: Yes. Oh, man. It's rocking.

[20:53] Jimi: Again, I was like, that's just changed my life again. Just watching her. I was just like, holy moly, you are very, very good. Because the only experience I'd had of her before was what I guess most people in the world would have had would have been the Renée final performance video, which was great as Mimi. She was really, really great. When I honestly, when I saw the press release for Hamilton and looking at it, I was like, well, there she is again. And I was a bit skeptical because I was like, I'm sure I could have thought of other people. Do you know what I mean?

[21:22] Tommy: Yeah.

[21:22] Jimi: But holy moly.

[21:23] Tommy: Well, and I think Lin-Manuel has said that she has the hardest phrases in the show, some of the fastest meter, some of the most difficult rhyme. Gosh, I mean, "Satisfied" is, that is a proper hip hop track. Like you can imagine that on the radio. I know they're talking a lot about Hamilton getting onto the radio and kind of bringing that aspect of musical theatre out into the populace again. You could, it sounds so well produced. I don't know. I just think it's amazing.

[21:49] Jimi: It's funny, I found this really, really fun thing whilst looking up stuff for this podcast, and I found the casting calls for each of the characters.

[21:56] Tommy: Oh, yeah.

[21:57] Jimi: Have you seen them before?

[21:58] Tommy: No, that's awesome.

[21:59] Jimi: Oh, this is great fun. Okay. So basically, for obviously all your main gang, he gives a like little brief thing. But for every single one, he gives a hip hop reference meets musical theatre reference.

[22:10] Tommy: That's cool.

[22:11] Jimi: Which is so fun. And I think the one for Angelica Schuyler is dead on and you'll love it. So Angelica Schuyler is fierce, dazzling, brilliant, can read a room and everyone in it instantly. Deeply in love with Hamilton, who's married to her beloved sister, Eliza. Nicki Minaj meets Desiree Armfelt.

[22:31] Tommy: That's amazing. Oh my god.

[22:33] Jimi: And I'm all over that. I'm all over that because that's like, I must say I'm a fan of Nicki Minaj. When I first listened to "Satisfied," I was like, oh my god, it feels like I'm listening to Nicki. Do you know what I mean? But then obviously her and her character, this really strong woman.

[22:48] Tommy: Yeah.

[22:49] Jimi: Of course it's Desiree.

[22:51] Tommy: That's fantastic.

[22:53] Jimi: There's some other highlights as well. George Washington, who is John Legend meets Mufasa. And I'm like, yes. How else would you describe George Washington, right?

[23:03] Tommy: I mean, yeah. So that, I freaked someone out on Tumblr when I wrote a stupid long response to something they wrote about George Washington being a father.

[23:13] Jimi: I read that, yeah.

[23:14] Tommy: What is the name of that song? "Meet Me Inside." When Hamilton's all, don't call me son. And George Washington is like, but you've got a kid coming, but he doesn't know, or he's not telling Hamilton and using it as an excuse. It's just such a well-structured show. That's also, you know, we've babbled on about all the details about it, but the macro of it is fantastic.

[23:36] Jimi: A hundred percent. Yeah. It's a hundred percent a lesson in foreshadowing. I would say Sondheim is the master of leitmotif. It looks like Lin-Manuel is growing to be the master of foreshadowing because it's everywhere. It's everywhere. Every time you listen to the recording, you peel back another, you're like, oh, of course.

[23:53] Tommy: Right.

[23:54] Jimi: Because the first one I hit on was, again, in "My Shot." He's like, I'm not throwing away my shot. And what does he do at the end of the show? He throws away his shot.

[24:02] Tommy: His shot. And it's just like, it's so good. It's so good. When he says to Lawrence, like, Lawrence, do not throw away your shot. He's talking about his shot at the big time. He's just talking about his shot in the duel. Like, what, what is this? What are you doing to us?

[24:20] Tommy: Let's talk lyrics. Cause we're, we're kind of there already.

[24:22] Jimi: Go look at Genius, everyone listening.

[24:25] Tommy: For those like me who have never heard of Genius, it's like a crowdsourced lyric annotating site.

[24:30] Jimi: Yeah. And it is done by the most educated and amazing people. And this is for not just Hamilton. This is for a lot of music out there, particularly rap and hip hop.

[24:41] Tommy: So what did I wanted to talk about? I was an English minor in college. And one of the things we talk about are the first sentence you read of a book sets up that entire book. And yes, the very first lines Burr say are explicitly about Hamilton, which is really easy. But Lawrence's lines, one, it's just great scan. The $10 founding father without a father got a lot farther by working a lot harder by being a lot smarter by being a self-starter.

[25:08] Jimi: Yeah. It's like a slant rhyme morph.

[25:10] Tommy: Yeah. You got the repetition of father, and then that's a slant rhyme with farther, and he makes it better than I do. And then harder and smarter and self-starter. And it's very slow metered. So you get all of it as a first-time audience member, but it is setting you up for the dense wordplay that is coming in the rest of this show.

[25:31] Jimi: Yeah. One of my favorite ones. And again, it's one of those things I think if you listen to this, obviously there's so much in it. And the good thing about rhyme in music is that it is supposed to kind of wash over you because it just sounds so perfect. But then when you go back and analyze it in "Aaron Burr, Sir," so it's Mulligan when he says, lock up your daughters and horses. Of course, it's hard to have intercourse over four sets of corsets. Now, in my Scottish vernacular, that doesn't sound as good, but it's literally, he just says the same thing three times. It's amazing. Now, it does tell you on Genius what this is specifically. This is apparently a sick double compound rhyme. It's, you know, while her withers with her with her. Exactly. But then that happens once and into the woods and happens a bajillion times in Hamilton.

[26:23] Tommy: So many times. And that's the thing is, this is how you know that Lin has spent so many hours just delving in and being like, is that the best thing I could say? Can I make this even cooler? And then how do I use it again? Like the whole "Aaron Burr, Sir" over and over and every time Hamilton and Burr meet, and it so quickly and succinctly defines their relationship.

[26:49] Jimi: A hundred percent. And it's just a couple words. Can we speak a little bit about Aaron Burr and Hamilton and those two as the Valjean and Javert of our times?

[26:58] Jimi: Yes, I enjoy them so much more than I have ever enjoyed Valjean and Javert. It's just incredible. And what I love is if you go into it musically, there's so much there. Obviously, they have completely different sounds. When Burr comes in with "Wait For It," when he comes in with that, it jumps right out of the rest of the show, I think, because it's so straight R&B. And you're just like, well, that's interesting. And it kind of comes back again with "Dear Theodosia," which I love that song. But all the way through, his line is so slick and R&B-fueled. Well, it is Aaron Burr, too. It is thinking before you're talking. It is calm, cool, and collected.

[27:45] Tommy: Exactly. Oh, no, what I was just thinking there is R&B, Aaron Burr. I bet you that's intentional, too.

[27:53] Jimi: Yeah, it's foreshadowed from the 16th century all the way till now. Well, that's the crazy part about this show is there is no secret. I'm the damn fool that shot him. You know Aaron Burr is the villain and then spend the rest of the show thinking, but how is he the villain? He's so passive and R&B. But the thing is, it's obviously in contrast to that. You've got Hamilton, who is mad, spitting all of these words, won't ever shut up, you know, writes his way and uses his oratory to get out of everything successfully. And I just think it's weird how history has put them together because they are opposing.

[28:34] Tommy: Yeah, they're complete opposing forces in their approach. And yet they were kind of tied together, star-crossed. I mean, Hamilton says it. We keep meeting.

[28:39] Jimi: Yeah. Like when they both end up in George's office.

[28:44] Tommy: Exactly. They bash into each other, you know, all the way through time. It's something out of sci-fi. It's crazy. I mean, obviously it is, like you say, it's a hip hop story. He uses that music to illustrate them even further. There's no other example of that in music using music to illustrate character. That's not been done.

[29:02] Jimi: Not so extremely as this. Yeah. Because that's the thing is so many composers are great at using leitmotif for the characters. You know, "Les Mis" is a perfect example of that. Yeah. Something like "Ragtime," perfect example of that. But to actually show a character is just unreal. And, you know, whereas leitmotif is just they have to play the song for you first. This is the melody for this person. With "Hamilton," they're referencing on anything you might ever know about other musical genres and other musicians out there and saying, and then that is this person. It's almost like you've been preparing to watch this show your whole life with all of your exterior other music knowledge. But even if you don't know anything about hip hop, which I'm not going to lie, I was one of those people until I started listening to "In The Heights."

I absolutely still am one of those people. And you just get, it's just the vibe of the music. The fact that Hamilton goes a hundred words a minute and Burr is a lot more steady. It just clicks so immediately.

[30:01] Tommy: Can we talk about musical theatre references in "Hamilton"?

[30:07] Jimi: Well, they're all over the place. I'm sure someone will write their thesis on this one day if someone's not done it already, because people are really quick. Have you got a favourite?

[30:15] Tommy: It's not a musical theatre reference. I enjoy the whole string of Macbeth references and not just the overt ones because they then keep happening. This is the story of Macbeth in many ways. Right. Complete hubris. And to see Hamilton overtly compare his story to Macbeth, the tragic hero who murders a bunch of people. It's not an author reference. It is a character reference. Throw in a couple of ghosts into the show and you've got Macbeth musical.

[30:45] Jimi: Well, so what's yours? What's your favourite musical theatre reference?

[30:48] Tommy: My favourite musical theatre reference is Lafayette and Aaron Burr. Just because I love Lafayette because, again, Daveed Diggs. When he comes in, it's, "We weam on a measure of a pair of Lafayette, the Lancelot of the revolutionary set." And obviously they refer to him as being the kind of Lancelot of the group all the way through. But then he jumps in with the beautiful Camelot reference of "Till the king casteth thee, who's the best, c'est moi," which is obviously a song from "Camelot." It's awesome.

[31:15] Jimi: Sung by Lancelot in "Camelot."

[31:17] Tommy: And it is not misplaced?

[31:18] Jimi: Not at all.

[31:19] Tommy: It is not unnecessary?

[31:21] Jimi: It's minute. Absolutely minute. In many ways, it doesn't need to be a reference, but it is. It just happens to be.

[31:29] Tommy: There are some more overt ones out there.

[31:31] Jimi: Yeah, there's, what, you've got to be carefully taught. You've got, in saying no to this, nobody needs to know, using the exact same melody of the song from "Last Seven Years." But that's fine. I will also take them. There was some tweet. Someone was sitting in front of Jason Robert Brown when he came to see the show. And that's a really sad song. Really melancholy. And they tweeted at the end of the song, one person in the audience went, "Ha!" And it was Jason Robert Brown.

[32:02] Tommy: Thankfully, I had been primed to know that that was coming, otherwise I probably would have done the exact same thing. But there, that's the thing is, there's so much. I don't, it's almost like, I don't want to spoil it for people. You have to go find these things for yourself.

[32:15] Jimi: It's a huge scavenger hunt.

[32:17] Tommy: It just is.

[32:18] Jimi: Another thing I want to talk about is "Helpless" and how that is the song "Countdown" by Beyoncé.

[32:27] Tommy: Uh-huh.

[32:28] Jimi: And that they are the same song. But obviously, you know, not.

[32:31] Tommy: Different enough.

[32:32] Jimi: I was walking, I was in London when I listened to it for the first time and literally just walking down the streets of London, bursting out laughing because it's so good. It's just so good. It's not, that's the thing is, is none of this is stealing and none of it is cheap.

[32:46] Tommy: Right.

[32:46] Jimi: It's just smart. If you're a fan of Beyoncé, anyone listening to this, go listen to "Helpless" again. If you didn't notice it the first time, I think it's blatant.

[32:55] Tommy: Uh-huh.

[32:55] Jimi: But if you didn't, go back and listen and even just sing "Countdown" alongside it. And it works.

[33:03] Tommy: It's awesome. When all the, what is it? This is where my lack of rap and hip-hop knowledge comes in, but the "10 Dual Commandments."

[33:12] Jimi: Yeah, the "10 Crack Commandments." It's, yeah, it's right there.

[33:15] Tommy: It's right there.

[33:16] Jimi: It's right there.

[33:16] Tommy: But not, you know, it is not, it's not cheap in the way that, like, all the stolen songs from "Thoroughly Modern Millie" are kind of cheap.

[33:23] Jimi: Right.

[33:25] Tommy: You know, it's like, we don't want to write a melody, so we're just going to steal this one.

[33:28] Jimi: We're just going to steal this. Yeah. Which, you know, that's the thing is, I think that has its own place because that is parody.

[33:34] Tommy: Yeah, that's true.

[33:35] Jimi: This isn't parody. This is like taking your hat off and saying.

[33:39] Tommy: It's homage.

[33:40] Jimi: I love you so much. It's complete homage. It's, you know, I mean, it's, I love you so much, musical theatre. Welcome to my show.

[33:46] Tommy: What I love in, so there's the "10 Dual Commandments" and that whole, you know, whenever someone's counting, it's going to go down. But in Philip's song, "Blow Us All Away," the underscoring has the same, like, hip-hop record scratch at the very beginning.

[34:04] Jimi: Before we even get anywhere near close to the duel, it's got that like.

[34:10] Tommy: That was very well done.

[34:12] Jimi: Thank you. Thank you. It's actually my voice on the original cast recording. Lynn called me up and was like, "Tommy, we need you to go."

[34:22] Tommy: I can do that.

[34:23] Jimi: I thought it was you. I really did. I could see it.

[34:26] Tommy: Yeah, it's, they neglected to credit me in the liner notes.

[34:30] Jimi: But you like to, you know, I mean, this is the first time you've broken your anonymity.

[34:34] Tommy: This is true. This is true. You're welcome, Internet.

[34:36] Jimi: Yeah.

[34:39] Tommy: But no, that is that is true. I hadn't I hadn't noticed that.

[34:42] Jimi: So you got to listen to it again because it's once, you know, you're like, oh, my God.

[34:47] Tommy: Yeah, it's all got, you know, it borders on leitmotif. Best thing is, it's like poor Philip was kind of doomed from the start when his mother sat him down and started teaching him to count to 10.

[34:57] Jimi: Oh, man.

[34:57] Tommy: Using that melody. Do you know what I mean? It's cursed.

[35:00] Jimi: What a fantastic playwriting device that we have primed you that it's going to go one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. Like we're going to make it there to nine. And then Philip gets shot on seven. And you're like, oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[35:14] Tommy: This is the worst thing that's ever happened. We didn't make it to the end of the counting.

[35:18] Jimi: Exactly. Exactly. And it does. It takes the wind out of you. It really, really does.

[35:22] Tommy: The number seven. We're going to spend some time talking about that. Again, am I plowing through genius? I think it's in my shop when Hamilton kind of goes off on it. It's when he says for the first time, "I imagine death so much it feels more like a memory." And he said, when's it going to get me? And I sleep seven feet ahead of me. And that's an interesting line, because what does that mean?

[35:41] Jimi: Yeah.

[35:41] Tommy: Well, now let's go and look at all the references to the number seven in the musical "Hamilton," which someone from Genius has beautifully carved. So Hamilton left seven children behind when he died. The duel where he was shot started at 7 a.m. In "Blow Us All Away," Philip was shot early on the seventh count. The 7th of September is the point of the song in which Philip and Eliza sing at the piano and take a break. It just kind of shows that line is almost a little bit through, because if you did listen to it, and I sleep seven feet ahead of me, what is that? Ten paces? Would that be seven feet?

[36:17] Jimi: Right.

[36:17] Tommy: Probably not. Like, what does that mean? Why seven? Yeah. Why seven? And that's why. That is complete, beautiful foreshadowing. Little bit of mystery thrown in there.

[36:27] Jimi: On there. And nothing is a thrown away line. If you reach a line in "Hamilton" and you're like, that's a throwaway line, there's more to learn about it.

[36:35] Tommy: Exactly. That's the thing. And it's funny, there's some unannotated lines, obviously, in Genius. And you kind of look at it and you're like, right, okay, what can I get? I'm going to be the one to analyze. I mean, some of them are just narration and saying, this is what's happening. But that's still, so "Hamilton" is one of the first musicals I've listened to in a long time that has no B-plot.

[36:52] Jimi: Right.

[36:54] Tommy: And I think that's pretty cool. Every song starts with a cause and ends with an effect that leads into the next song. There is not a single song that is like, meanwhile, back at the ranch. It's all here's what's just happened. And the song spits you out just in time to get you to the next one.

[37:13] Jimi: Which other shows don't do. Other shows take the time to be like, we're going to go off stage and you're going to assume time has passed while you watch, you know, Sally and Johnny have their love story in front of the Into curtain while we change the set behind everything.

[37:30] Tommy: It is interesting because if you think about other really big song-through musicals, to think of three, you've got "Les Mis," you've got "Ragtime," you've got "Rent," which I adore them all.

[37:40] Jimi: Yeah, they're great.

[37:41] Tommy: Right. But a lot of the criticism that they get, maybe not "Rent" so much, but a lot of the criticism that they get is that there's too much going on.

[37:49] Jimi: Yeah.

[37:49] Tommy: It's so hard to follow because you've got all of these different plots and like "Les Mis," it's talking about the French Revolution and it's charting that whole time. And different effects it has on different people and different walks of life. And "Ragtime" is charting the turn of the century in America and how that affected, you know, lots of different people. It's interesting that "Hamilton," which I think can easily fit into those brackets.

[38:12] Jimi: Yeah.

[38:12] Tommy: When focusing on, like you say, this one thread.

[38:16] Jimi: Yeah.

[38:16] Tommy: It just makes it so cohesive and you're there. It's one of those things you find it so hard to listen to the cast recording out of sync with itself.

[38:24] Jimi: Yeah.

[38:24] Tommy: You just, you do need it all.

[38:26] Jimi: It flows one into the next.

[38:28] Tommy: What I've started to do, which is a fun game that you can play at home, listeners, is listening to it on shuffle because it's so like the actual cast recording is so well produced. The ending of the song feeds really nicely into the next, no matter what the song is. And it can be really funny sometimes you're listening to "Burn" and then it jumps straight back and you're suddenly in the "Schuyler Sisters." It's fun.

[38:52] Jimi: It's a fun game.

[38:54] Tommy: That's how I found the reprise in "Blow Us All Away," because I was listening to it on shuffle and it went "Ten Dual Commandments," "Blow Us All Away." And I was like, oh my God, it's the same thing.

[39:04] Jimi: Yes, there you go.

[39:06] Tommy: It is crazy how much of this calls back and calls forward.

[39:09] Jimi: Yeah.

[39:09] Tommy: I'm also just, you know, notoriously in musical theatre, Act Two sucks.

[39:15] Jimi: Always.

[39:16] Tommy: And there's actually reasoning behind that. What I've read is that as humans, we are very much trained to like the three-act structure that has become movies, like get the character up a tree, throw rocks at them, get them out of a tree.

[39:28] Jimi: Yeah.

[39:28] Tommy: But you can't to fit that into two acts. Where do you put the middle bit of the story? Do you put it in Act One or in Act Two? If you put it in Act One, Act Two, you got to kind of like, you know, you leave Act One on a cliffhanger that has to immediately resolve at the beginning of Act Two, but not enough that you're like, why are we sitting here? "Hamilton," my literal favorite song, is in what is normally the most boring part of Act Two.

[39:54] Jimi: I think "The Room Where It Happens" is a wonderful song.

[40:00] Tommy: I think it's one of the best musical theatre songs.

[40:02] Jimi: It is Aaron Burr's turning point. It is when he turns into Snidely Whiplash, who wants to tie the woman to the railroad track, and you watch it happen, and you feel it happen, and it's right at the boring part of Act Two, or what would normally be the boring part of Act Two.

[40:18] Tommy: The hump.

[40:19] Jimi: The hump.

[40:24] Tommy: Well, I just think they do so well between the two.

[40:27] Jimi: They changed the cast. It's a different show. They used doubling, like this beautiful, archaic theatre device, to such good effect. You've got these characters who you've fallen in love with in the first act, and here they come in and they're playing completely different, maybe not in the case of Laurence and Philip, but completely different characters. You're looking at Lafayette, who you just adore, and you're like, yes, you champion him so much. And he comes back as Jefferson, and you're like, aaaah, you! It's great, because it just injects this great new life into the show. Because, like, okay, we'll get to know you now. Then you have to do exposition again. It's a great way to get over the hump.

It's like, you gotta meet everyone again. It launches in, what'd I miss? The first time I listened to it, I was like, what is this? Right. What the hell is going on? Because I was also a bit like, it sounds like Daveed Diggs, but that would make sense. Oh no, wait, there's doubling. And it launches into this completely different show. It's much more political. It's interesting because, obviously, in the face of America and American history, this is where I'm going to geek out on American history, with my very limited knowledge. You're going to put me to shame.

[41:34] Tommy: Yeah. But obviously, Act One is the revolution. Act Two is the founding of America that we know today. Those two beautiful chapters put side by side, and they're so different.

[41:45] Jimi: Yeah. What I find great is, even though they are such different stories, Act Two is so much informed by what happened in Act One. You couldn't into the woods it, you couldn't just do one act and have it make sense. I think the most difficult writing hump Lin-Manuel Miranda had to get over was what to put after the world turned upside down. What do you do once the Revolutionary War is over? How do you tell people, but this isn't the end of the show? But Hamilton is not, and he sets it up so well, because at the very beginning, he tells you all the things like, I'm the damn fool that shot him, I died for him, things that haven't happened yet.

[42:22] Tommy: Yeah, exactly.

[42:23] Jimi: So they have to happen. And then this is my favorite writing device that they use throughout Hamilton, is that it instantaneously goes back and forth between in-world dialogue and fourth wall breaking narrative. When Hamilton says lines like, they won't tell you this in the history books. About himself, to you, the audience, about the thing he is experiencing right now. And they do it again, maybe not quite as extremely, but right after the world turned upside down, when King George has his what comes next. And it totally sets you up for the Act One cliffhanger. What does happen next? You won the war, now what? Which is just, that's 100% of what the song is.

[43:09] Tommy: And it is really good, because that song, obviously it is a lovely little comedy song, and this really nice kind of light relief. Again, such an archaic device, that's Shakespearean.

[43:18] Jimi: Yeah.

[43:19] Tommy: Yet he manages to cover so much exposition in that song. It's so useful. It's not just a throw in, like, okay, let's make people laugh, master of the house. It is properly, well, no, we need this song, because we've got to jump through a lot of time just now. Like you say, about those kind of nods to the audience. I love Eliza's in the finale, when she says, I'm just trying to find the exact line. When she says, who lives, who dies, who tells your story? Eliza! And you're like, oh, that's cute. And then she said, I put myself back in the narrative.

[44:12] Jimi: Yeah.

[44:12] Tommy: And it's that idea of this narrative, which is kind of, again, it's this whole kind of star crossed destiny idea that they play with. Obviously in Burn, when she says, I'm trashing it all, no one's going to know who you are, because it's just about me. And they're just like, well, actually, I'm going to come back into this, you know what I mean? And it's beautiful.

[44:29] Jimi: Well, and it's Burn is the song that keeps this from becoming historical fiction, because she did burn all the letters. And we don't know a lot of what happened to her in that point, from the point when she removes herself from the narrative until she puts herself back in the narrative. What would have been a problem, writing wise, is suddenly turned into a fantastic character piece, just of the character posing basically in that third person like, what did happen to me? You'll never know. Isn't that sad? Aren't you crying in your seat right now that you don't know what happened to this person you become attached to? Bye! See you later.

[44:52] Tommy: Yeah, exactly. See you in a couple songs.

[44:55] Jimi: So true. It's just fantastic.

[45:01] Tommy: We could talk, I'm just looking at all of the songs. There's something in that I want to talk about. There's just so much.

[45:08] Jimi: I am convinced that in like, so I'm gonna video game nerd out for a little bit.

[45:14] Tommy: That's fine.

[45:14] Jimi: Nintendo 64 had a video game called Banjo-Kazooie.

[45:19] Tommy: Yeah, okay, right. I'm with you. That's fine.

[45:21] Jimi: You played as a bear with a bird in your backpack.

[45:23] Tommy: Yep.

[45:23] Jimi: And there were, built into the game were cheat codes that the game told you about.

[45:29] Tommy: Oh my gosh, yeah.

[45:30] Jimi: Here's a cheat code you can enter for this, and here's a cheat code you can enter for that. And then maybe six months after the game's released, they discovered, oh, there's more cheat codes. These are, you know, secret cheat codes that we could add in. And then something like eight years later, after the game's released, after my N64 was gathering dust, someone releases, oh my god, we found 200 new cheat codes for Banjo-Kazooie. Long after everyone's forgotten about it, I am convinced that's going to happen with Hamilton.

[46:04] Tommy: I know. There'll be like a cipher or something.

[46:08] Jimi: Yeah, seven years from now.

[46:11] Tommy: Dan Brown will write a novel.

[46:13] Jimi: Like the number of letters in the words corresponding to spells out Hamilton's diary or whatever.

[46:22] Tommy: A hundred percent. And we'll hear about it in a decade.

[46:25] Jimi: Well, it's going to be interesting because, obviously, we don't know what people are going to find down the line. You know, people could uncover a letter between him and Angelica, you know, that could change everything.

[46:38] Tommy: And it's so interesting just to think how that's going to fit in to this. It's now a kind of chronicling of a piece of history. I love Banjo-Kazooie, just as a side note. I was obsessed. And I got really hit up on, you know, like the secrets, like the ice cave and all that.

[46:57] Jimi: All the stop-and-try stuff.

[46:58] Tommy: Yeah, and then how it got linked to Banjo-Kazooie. I was obsessed. I'm absolutely obsessed.

[47:05] Jimi: We'll start a second video, a second podcast about retro video games.

[47:09] Tommy: Exactly. Well, that's how you...

[47:13] Jimi: That's going to happen.

[47:19] Tommy: What else do we have in our categories?

[47:22] Jimi: Critical reception.

[47:23] Tommy: It's been really good.

[47:24] Jimi: I mean, clearly. I don't know. I have not run across a single piece of negative feedback about this show.

[47:32] Tommy: I actually actively looked.

[47:37] Jimi: No, you know, that's not true. The negative stuff I have read about this show doesn't come from anyone I trust.

[47:45] Tommy: Right.

[47:46] Jimi: Internet comments. And it seems very much a knee-jerk reaction to, I don't like hip-hop. I don't like rap. Get this out of my musical theater. If that is your opinion, you haven't listened to this musical.

[48:00] Tommy: I would be interested to see, certainly a vast majority of this musical is rap and hip-hop. It is absolutely more rap and hip-hop than your average piece of musical theater. I bet you if you broke it down measure by measure, line by line, it might be 60-40 rap, hip-hop versus other genre of music.

[48:22] Jimi: Upbeat musical theater.

[48:24] Tommy: Upbeat jazz. There was some article I think I was reading, or maybe I made it up. Who knows? I think it was Lin-Manuel talking about how pretty much every genre represented in this is something quintessentially American. Beyond just the rap and hip-hop, but like, Jefferson's jazz, even just the musical theater, King Georgie kind of stuff, is a very American musical theater. With the few and far between critics of this show, I think they just haven't listened to it.

[48:54] Jimi: Exactly. Well, it's like, they can't argue that Lin-Manuel's coming from the hip-hop scene and has just written a musical because that's all he knows. It's not that, like, at all.

[49:07] Tommy: It's not like Kanye the Musical or something.

[49:10] Jimi: Yeah, or like, there was a Tupac musical, wasn't there?

[49:12] Tommy: Was there?

[49:13] Jimi: Yeah, I never listened to it. But there was, and I think there's actually references in Hamilton, obviously.

[49:20] Tommy: Of course there are.

[49:20] Jimi: It's interesting because, you know, I'm sure when Oklahoma came out back in the day, that people were like, what is this? You are messing with theater as we know it. Stop. This is awful. Because, you know, they were having to actually feel something. It's that kind of thing. It's just, open your mind.

[49:41] Tommy: Well, and people are averse to change.

[49:44] Jimi: Yeah.

[49:46] Tommy: You know, that I understand. I never want to be a gatekeeper of art, but I find myself babbling on the internet about, no, we don't need a SpongeBob musical.

[49:55] Jimi: Right.

[49:57] Tommy: And, like, Mr. Musical Mash deems this a welcome musical theater change.

[50:04] Jimi: Yeah.

[50:04] Tommy: You know what I mean?

[50:05] Jimi: A hundred percent. Because it is a change, you know? I mean, it is a little corner.

[50:09] Tommy: Yeah.

[50:09] Jimi: It's a new branch.

[50:11] Tommy: It is.

[50:11] Jimi: I mean, obviously, SpongeBob may change everything again.

[50:14] Tommy: Who knows?

[50:15] Jimi: Who knows, right?

[50:16] Tommy: I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

[50:17] Jimi: Exactly. It is one of my worries, is that, I think Sondheim said it in a quote about Hamilton. He said, like, mark my words, come back to me in a year, there's going to be six more rap musicals on Broadway.

[50:30] Tommy: Yeah.

[50:30] Jimi: And five of them are going to suck.

[50:32] Tommy: Yeah.

[50:33] Jimi: And I would not be surprised. I think more, I hope Lin-Manuel Miranda is remembered not as the guy who brought rap and hip hop to musical theater.

[50:45] Tommy: I know.

[50:45] Jimi: But he's remembered as the guy who dared to bring the, you know, dared to change the paradigm in his way.

[50:54] Tommy: Yeah.

[50:55] Jimi: Because you don't, no one needs another Sondheim, no one needs another Lin-Manuel Miranda. We have them. You know, it's time to broaden our horizons as people who listen to this kind of stuff.

[51:05] Tommy: It's just staying true to yourself. I don't think anyone could deny that Lin-Manuel has done that all the way through his career.

[51:12] Jimi: Absolutely. I mean, Bring It On is obviously there.

[51:16] Tommy: It's the elephant in the room.

[51:18] Jimi: It's fine, though, because it is, like, it's good fun and it's a fun film and it's a nice little activity to do between writing in the Heights and Hamilton. Go for it. Like, why not?

[51:29] Tommy: Exactly.

[51:29] Jimi: You know, you have to have fun, too, as a composer. It's one of those things, it's no, I don't think anyone could question his genius. And it is pure genius. It's defined genius now. He won an award.

[51:43] Tommy: It's true. He got money for being a genius.

[51:45] Jimi: Exactly. You know, I mean, I think for us, we can definitely draw a lot of comparisons to Big Steve, who obviously has been heralded as the best lyric writer ever, full stop.

[51:57] Tommy: For decades now.

[51:58] Jimi: Yeah. And along comes Lin-Manuel, who does it just as well because he gets it. He's tapped in. But like we say, he's doing it in his own way.

[52:10] Tommy: In the same way that Sondheim redefined the game.

[52:13] Jimi: Yeah. You check out Sondheim's early work versus what was going on then compared to his later work, and the face of musical theatre changed under the pen of Stephen Sondheim.

[52:23] Tommy: Yeah, exactly.

[52:24] Jimi: In the same way, you know, mark my words, it's going to happen under Lin-Manuel Miranda. It's already happened.

[52:29] Tommy: Yeah. And what I really like is that Stephen Sondheim is a fan of Lin-Manuel Miranda.

[52:36] Jimi: Thank God!

[52:37] Tommy: And that is, do you know what? I am really happy that Stephen Sondheim has gotten to experience that in his lifetime, because it's something he should. And as someone like Steve, who is so, you know, that's his world. And it's what he is so good at. How nice would it be for you to kind of lilt of your career? How nice would it be for you to be like, look at that, keep up, that must feel so great.

[53:04] Jimi: I think the Sondheim seal of approval goes a long way.

[53:09] Tommy: Right? I mean, that's what everyone...

[53:14] Jimi: I mean, that's just what I'm striving for in my life.

[53:16] Tommy: It's what we all strive for.

[53:18] Jimi: I wake up in the morning, I'm like, right, how can I get closer to Big Steve-o?

[53:34] Tommy: Well done, Lin.

[53:35] Jimi: We love you, Lin, if you're listening to our...

[53:38] Tommy: dinky little podcast.

[53:40] Jimi: I'm sure he will. We'll send him a tweet and be like, hey.

[53:43] Tommy: We will. I'm sure he'll love to hear more people gushing about his work.

[53:48] Jimi: I'm sure that's not weird at all.

[53:50] Tommy: But do we not need to say goodbye?

[53:52] Jimi: No, it's a podcast. It ends on its own.