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[0:00] Jimi: It's weird with this now because we've already been talking literally for two hours.

[0:07] Tommy: Don't ruin the illusion!

[0:10] Jimi: I know, but think of all of the topics that we've covered.

[0:13] Tommy: What have we talked about?

[0:16] Jimi: Pooping.

[0:22] Tommy: Welcome to Jim and Tomic's Musical Theatre Happy Hour. I am Jimmy.

[0:26] Jimi: And I'm Tomic and this is the only Musical Theatre Podcast with Peppermint Schnapps.

[0:32] Tommy: And opening night flops. Here we take apart your favourite shows, muddle them together with a shot of buffoonery and pour you a refreshing glass of musical theatre conversation.

[0:44] Jimi: Tomic, what are you drinking today, son?

[0:47] Tommy: I feel like I'm cheating because we already talked about communion wine.

[0:52] Jimi: Well, I think that's okay.

[0:53] Tommy: I did want to spin a I'm-never-late-for-any-meal joke in there somewhere, but that's hard to—

[1:00] Jimi: You could have also had the classic tea with jam and bread.

[1:05] Tommy: There's loads of stuff right on the surface. Pink lemonade.

[1:08] Jimi: Everything's on the surface.

[1:09] Tommy: Schnitzel with noodles.

[1:10] Jimi: Easy to get.

[1:12] Tommy: Blend it up.

[1:13] Jimi: Which is not the lyric, right? But is what I thought the lyric was for a very long time.

[1:17] Tommy: Do you know the lyric? Schnitzel with strudel.

[1:21] Jimi: No, it's schnitzel with noodles.

[1:23] Tommy: I'm pretty sure.

[1:25] Jimi: I'm pretty sure it's schnitzel with noodles.

[1:29] Tommy: Who knew the—

[1:30] Jimi: Who knew the argument would come this quickly?

[1:32] Tommy: It would come already. I'd give it a try again.

[1:35] Jimi: No, because it's crisp apple strudel. There's no way they would multi-rhyme.

[1:39] Tommy: Is it schnitzel with noodles?

[1:42] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:43] Tommy: Okay, what is schnitzel?

[1:45] Jimi: Schnitzel is a flattened either pork or veal in breadcrumbs.

[1:53] Tommy: Huh.

[1:54] Jimi: Deep fried.

[1:55] Tommy: I had a vastly wrong understanding of what schnitzel was until this moment.

[2:01] Jimi: What did you think schnitzel was? Did you think it was an animal?

[2:03] Tommy: I thought it was kind of cookie.

[2:05] Jimi: Oh, like a Lebkuchen?

[2:07] Tommy: Gesundheit. Which is why it would make sense with strudel, but now I'm nervous that I don't know what strudel is.

[2:13] Jimi: Oh, strudel. Yeah, so strudel is like a latticed, um, often like fruit pack, but you could, it's just like a lattice thing.

[2:22] Tommy: So you could have meat in it, I guess.

[2:23] Jimi: Sure. But the idea of having that with some, like pastry with cookie is...

[2:29] Tommy: Yeah, it's absolutely makes perfect sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[2:32] Jimi: Um, yeah, schnitzel with noodles. And also like my favorite German meal, because we've all got one, is, um, a dish called Spätzle.

[2:43] Tommy: Um, which is, you know, my favorite thing to do is speak German.

[2:48] Jimi: I know, I know.

[2:50] Tommy: Getting it all out of the way at the start. It's all good.

[2:52] Jimi: It's not true at all.

[2:53] Tommy: But yeah, but it's really good. It's like a sort of fried, it's like a kind of fried mac and cheese, almost a little bit soupier.

[3:03] Jimi: Okay.

[3:04] Tommy: But you grate the, you grate the, um, well, what you would call noodles, what we would call pasta into the fryer.

[3:13] Jimi: We would also call it pasta.

[3:16] Tommy: But like, you also call it noodles and that's so stupid.

[3:18] Jimi: There's pasta I wouldn't call noodles.

[3:21] Tommy: We're getting ahead of ourselves. I have a quiz question for you.

[3:23] Jimi: Oh no.

[3:28] Tommy: In the movie version of this musical, one of the leading actresses smashed her ankle through a plate glass window, Jimmy's cracking up on the Skype, through a plate glass window, but would continue filming and danced her way into one of the most iconic romantic dance sequences of all time. Jimmy, what movie?

[3:46] Jimi: Uh, what's that movie? It's a musical.

[4:13] Tommy: My heart wants to beat like the wings of the birds that rise from the lake to the trees.

[4:29] Jimi: My heart wants to sigh like a child that flies from a church on a breeze.

[4:38] Tommy: To laugh like a brook when it trips and falls over stones on its way.

[4:45] Jimi: To sing through the night like a lark who is learning to pray.

[4:53] Tommy: I go to the news.

[5:07] Jimi: I wouldn't call bow tie pasta a noodle.

[5:12] Tommy: Okay, I can't remember what that's called.

[5:14] Jimi: I was getting really impressed.

[5:15] Tommy: I think that might be farfalle.

[5:16] Jimi: That sounds right.

[5:20] Tommy: To me, a noodle has to have...

[5:22] Jimi: What about like a penny?

[5:23] Tommy: It depends on how long it is.

[5:27] Jimi: So like a tagliatelle or spaghetti for you, that's noodles?

[5:32] Tommy: Yes.

[5:32] Jimi: Like if and I think...

[5:33] Tommy: Hands down.

[5:34] Jimi: If it like bends when you pick it up with your fork, it's a noodle.

[5:39] Tommy: If you eat it by sticking your fork in and twirling, it's a noodle.

[5:42] Jimi: Full show.

[5:43] Tommy: It's a noodle.

[5:44] Jimi: Okay, okay.

[5:46] Tommy: I mean like I see the logic but noodles are just different.

[5:50] Jimi: Like I don't think lasagna pasta is a noodle.

[5:54] Tommy: Is a noodle.

[5:55] Jimi: But I have heard people call lasagna pasta...

[5:57] Tommy: Or like a big shell for stuffing.

[6:01] Jimi: That's not a noodle.

[6:01] Tommy: Like a conciglione or something like that.

[6:03] Jimi: So I'm just really trying to show off here.

[6:08] Tommy: Anyway, let's stop talking about pasta.

[6:10] Jimi: It is relevant.

[6:12] Tommy: It is.

[6:13] Jimi: They talk about noodles.

[6:14] Tommy: They started it.

[6:15] Jimi: As I've just learned.

[6:17] Tommy: Yeah.

[6:17] Jimi: We're talking about The Sound of Music.

[6:19] Tommy: Music by Richard Rodgers.

[6:20] Jimi: Lyric by Oscar Hammerstein.

[6:22] Tommy: Yes, indeed.

[6:23] Jimi: And the book by Mr. Howard Lindsay and Russell Christ.

[6:26] Tommy: I should have said Messers, Howard Lindsay and Russell Christ.

[6:29] Jimi: Because we're posh here.

[6:31] Tommy: And it is based on the memoirs of Maria von Trapp.

[6:36] Jimi: Whose name I don't think actually was Maria von Trapp.

[6:39] Tommy: And I will say in the current published libretto, it says suggested by, quote, the story of the Trapp family singers.

[6:48] Jimi: Which I believe is a book.

[6:50] Tommy: I'm always intrigued when officially they either say based on or suggested by or inspired by.

[6:53] Jimi: Right.

[6:56] Tommy: Just like what an interesting... Like you know there was some negotiation around a table about what's the specific verbiage we use here.

[7:03] Jimi: How far can we distance ourselves from the source material so we don't get in trouble anymore?

[7:08] Tommy: Anyway, the majority of people will know Sound of Music as the hugely successful Academy Award winning best picture in 1965.

[7:19] Jimi: Of the same name.

[7:19] Tommy: But it's obviously called Sound of Music as well.

[7:22] Jimi: Yes.

[7:23] Tommy: Or the interestingly reviewed live adaptation with Carrie Underwood.

[7:28] Jimi: When was that?

[7:29] Tommy: 2012?

[7:32] Jimi: Yeah, it's...

[7:33] Tommy: 14?

[7:34] Jimi: Yeah.

[7:34] Tommy: Oh no, we're in a different decade now.

[7:36] Jimi: It's true.

[7:36] Tommy: Gosh, time flies, doesn't it?

[7:38] Jimi: And there's also, if you're across the pond over here, you might be aware of where we found the one and only Connie Fisher.

[7:46] Tommy: The Angela Drebber Talent Show.

[7:48] Jimi: How do you solve a problem like Maria?

[7:51] Tommy: I was also so close. It was 2013.

[7:55] Jimi: Someone will tweet at me otherwise.

[7:57] Tommy: If I don't say it.

[7:58] Jimi: Yeah, you're so right.

[8:00] Tommy: You're so right.

[8:00] Jimi: But yeah, 2013, Carrie Underwood. Gotta love it.

[8:04] Tommy: So yeah, there's plenty out there.

[8:07] Jimi: My goodness, it's the Sound of Music.

[8:10] Tommy: Is it?

[8:10] Jimi: Like, in many ways, this is like the biggest show we've probably covered to date.

[8:15] Tommy: Yeah, and I will. I thought about this earlier and maybe it's worth saying.

[8:18] Jimi: And it's because we've set up this trap for ourselves, Jimmy.

[8:22] Tommy: By saying, if you want to start listening to our podcast, pick an episode about a musical that you like and make that your first one.

[8:31] Jimi: And so if that's you listening to this. One, welcome. I'm so happy you're here.

[8:34] Tommy: Welcome.

[8:36] Jimi: Two. Sorry we spoke for about 20 minutes about noodles.

[8:39] Tommy: Uh, there will be much less discussion of noodles throughout the show.

[8:42] Jimi: Although we may delve into interesting topics.

[8:46] Tommy: Does that seem like a fair warning?

[8:46] Jimi: Yes, indeed.

[8:48] Tommy: That's fair, yeah.

[8:50] Jimi: Um, yeah, that's a good point though.

[8:52] Tommy: I feel like I'm under pressure.

[8:54] Jimi: Um, it's not going to change anything. I'll still talk like an idiot.

[8:58] Tommy: Um, but yeah, that's actually quite interesting thing. Because we, you know, we've not done Les Mis. We've not done Wicked.

[9:01] Jimi: I guess we've done Wicked.

[9:03] Tommy: Yeah, but I mean, Sound of Music. This is the musical, man.

[9:06] Jimi: This is it.

[9:07] Tommy: This is it.

[9:09] Jimi: This is, yeah, fun for all the family.

[9:12] Tommy: Perhaps, perhaps.

[9:14] Jimi: I, you know, the most popular musical of all time.

[9:20] Tommy: It's something like, and I haven't. I read this from an article that isn't from this year.

[9:26] Jimi: But it was apparently like, until the point where this article was written, the number three highest grossing film.

[9:32] Tommy: I read that too.

[9:33] Jimi: Potentially just in the US.

[9:34] Tommy: And like maybe, maybe Singing in the Rain is a more popular movie musical.

[9:39] Jimi: Maybe just.

[9:40] Tommy: But they don't play, they don't play Singing in the Rain on Easter on ABC Family, right?

[9:44] Jimi: Yeah, exactly.

[9:46] Tommy: I think that's it. I think like this is the, this is the family musical.

[9:50] Jimi: Whereas Singing in the Rain, I would say, like, I think there's still a lot of younger people today who would still kind of watch and enjoy the Sound of Music.

[9:58] Tommy: Whereas I think Singing in the Rain could start to fall into the outdated category.

[10:04] Jimi: Sound of Music was a substitute teacher movie plan for me in Catholic school.

[10:08] Tommy: Like I had, I had fourth grade teachers who like when they were out for the day, they'd put on Sound of Music.

[10:13] Jimi: Because also it's three hours long. So it's a great substitute teacher plan.

[10:16] Tommy: Absolutely, absolutely.

[10:18] Jimi: Yeah, that's a great show.

[10:20] Tommy: Yeah. Sound of Music will exist forever.

[10:21] Jimi: And I think the other trap that we set for ourselves is of any, you run into this with these like big epic, not in content, but in meta existence musicals, that there is so much analysis and unpacking.

[10:35] Tommy: And, you know, the real Von Trapps meet the movie Von Trapps tonight on Oprah with Julie Andrew, right? Like, you know, people plan in, I saw, we'll talk about this, but the, I can't remember whether it was 2020 or 60 Minutes documentary about this, had a brief B-roll clip from Salzburg talking about tourists making their pilgrimage to the filming sites of various parts from the Sound of Music.

[11:09] Jimi: And the B-roll clip was of these delightful looking six ladies dressed as nuns. And one of them had a bride-to-be sash on, and it was a bachelorette Sound of Music vacation.

[11:24] Tommy: I know people who have done that exact same thing.

[11:27] Jimi: Oh my God.

[11:28] Tommy: Like this show has a following.

[11:32] Jimi: A following.

[11:33] Tommy: And hey, get used to this phrase if you're new. We'll talk about it later.

[11:36] Jimi: We'll be talking about that later.

[11:39] Tommy: But for the moment, for all of the people who haven't ever listened to the show, we're still probably quite a significant amount. Are you going to tell us what it's about, Tommy?

[11:44] Tommy: I'll give it a go.

[11:51] Jimi: The Sound of Music follows Maria von Trapney.

[11:55] Tommy: I don't even remember her unmarried name.

[11:58] Jimi: Because they changed it, right?

[11:59] Tommy: I don't think you found it.

[12:00] Jimi: Nope, they say it.

[12:01] Tommy: They say it once because I read a thing about like, that one's wrong.

[12:04] Jimi: And now people will correct me.

[12:05] Tommy: It's wrong.

[12:05] Jimi: Oh, interesting.

[12:06] Tommy: Maria is a nun in training, a novice at an abbey in Salzburg, Austria.

[12:13] Jimi: And as her fellow nuns will tell us very quickly, she's not your normal nun.

[12:19] Tommy: She likes doing weird things like singing.

[12:23] Jimi: And Maria is still finding her place with God and in the abbey.

[12:28] Tommy: And in an effort to perhaps alleviate this, the mother abbess sends her on assignment to become a governess for a local family, the von Trapps.

[12:41] Jimi: Um, Captain von Trapp is a widower. He has seven children.

[12:46] Tommy: Can you name all of them without looking, Jimmy?

[12:49] Jimi: Uh, okay, let's give it a go. Um, uh, Liesel, Friedrich, um, Brigitte.

[12:57] Tommy: I'm also trying to do it in order. Can you tell?

[12:58] Jimi: Yep.

[12:59] Tommy: Brigitte.

[12:59] Jimi: Oh, no, I'm already wrong.

[13:00] Tommy: You're already wrong, but keep going.

[13:12] Tommy: You said Friedrich Trice, but okay.

[13:15] Jimi: Yeah, yeah. Okay.

[13:19] Tommy: The one that I can never remember her name, the one who's like the most known, it's not Marta. It's Marta. Good job.

[13:26] Jimi: I was just picking like German names. And then of course Greta. Wee little Gretel.

[13:32] Tommy: So Maria ends up at this family mansion where she's introduced to these kids by Captain Von Trapp, a man of order and whistling for his children and not perhaps a man of fun. This is all happening in the backdrop of soon-to-be annexed Austria by soon-to-be Nazi Germany during World War II, which is a huge socio-political background of this whole thing. We follow this journey as the kids kind of fall in love with their governess despite their best joys, and then eventually the captain does as well. Even though he has brought back a wife-to-be, the duchess, from his... I don't know. What does the captain do when he's not in the mansion? They don't really talk about that.

[14:20] Jimi: I think he's just in Vienna with a baroness and they're having a great time. Hey, he's out doing captain shit. The captain ends up falling in love with Maria. They get married, but then uh-oh, World War II, gotta get out of there. And so they escape over the Alps and...

[14:39] Tommy: To Switzerland, in safety.

[14:41] Jimi: In safety. And this is the contextual thing that I was not informed of when I first watched this thing, but audiences would have known at the time. The von Trapp family singers were real people and a very popular group of the time, and so anyone going to see this musical initially would very much know the von Trapps survive, and so it is one of those shows. In America, certainly. Yes, absolutely, and we'll talk about that, too. But did I cover most of the bases? I think so. I didn't talk about our puppets. I didn't talk about puppets. I didn't talk about our little Nazi boy, Rolf.

[15:19] Tommy: Yeah. But you know, we'll get there. He's a dick, so who cares? It's true. Yeah, I think that was good. I think it was good. I think we're ready to dive in, to talk all about it.

[15:28] Jimi: Sploosh!

[15:32] Tommy: Yeah, sploosh is what we say when I say dive in.

[15:37] Jimi: We're getting good at it.

[15:57] ♪ Musical number: "I Have Confidence" — performed by Jimi and Tommy ♪

[16:21] Tommy: Oh no, because I need you to know what my brain thought. My brain, because I have the memory of a goldfish, went, here's a fun reaction I'll do to Jimmy saying that. It'll be new and unique. That's really sweet, isn't it? Every single time I've said, let's dive in.

[16:38] Jimi: Thank you.

[16:44] Tommy: Hey, thanks for continuing to be my friend.

[16:47] Jimi: Oh, it's my pleasure. Okay, so which do we talk about first? The film or the stage musical?

[16:56] Tommy: Yes.

[16:57] Jimi: It's a hard question, because certainly everyone-

[16:59] Tommy: Or the Andrew Lloyd Webber talent show?

[17:00] Jimi: Not that, no, get out of here. It is a weird, people know this for the film. The film is wildly popular, right?

[17:09] Tommy: I would say the film, and to the point where the film has re-informed new productions of the stage musical.

[17:15] Jimi: Exactly. Yeah, the Andrew Lloyd Webber talent, Blood of West End, brought in, I think, both of the songs.

[17:23] Tommy: Yeah, I Have Confidence and the other one.

[17:26] Jimi: Something Good.

[17:29] Tommy: Yeah, I think it brought both of them in.

[17:30] Jimi: Did the Andrew Lloyd Webber one cut Max's songs? Because that's the other change between the stage production and the play.

[17:37] Tommy: Well, it kept the trio.

[17:39] Jimi: Okay, the No Way to Stop It.

[17:43] Tommy: Yeah, No Way to Stop It, and it's kept the duet between Baroness Schrader and Georg. So no, it stayed pretty true to the show. It wasn't like, let's just solely do the movie. But yeah, well, I guess that's probably quite a good place to start. It's kind of talking about the differences between the two. Because for the most part, by and large, it's exactly the same. I mean, it's certainly the same story and the same touch points. It is as if the original Broadway production was an out-of-town tryout that then they updated for the movie.

[18:19] Jimi: Yes. Yeah, I think that's fair. But I think there's some interesting kind of tonal differences, particularly when it comes to the politics of it, because it is a political piece. I think it's quite interesting, because critically, it's never done well.

[18:42] Tommy: No.

[18:43] Jimi: And it's always been slated as just being too saccharine, too sweet, unrealistic, halcyon, silly. But it's weird, because I remember seeing it when I was quite young, and I found it really chilling, you know? It's a deeply political piece. I will say, as much as the Carrie Underwood live version is bashed, if my memory serves, there is a shot where they transition from their wedding into some scene with big Nazi banners, where the whole camera does a 360 pan. And it is a chilling moment.

[19:20] Tommy: It absolutely is. I mean, the thing is, a lot of things with anything to do with the Third Reich, they are chilling, because it stirs up a lot of emotions. But I don't know, I think against the backdrop of this very sweet, innocent, loving musical, there is this kind of seedy undertone. But yeah, the movie and the Broadway production kind of handle that a little bit differently. The Broadway production, I would say, leans into it more. There's two songs that, if you've only seen the movie, you've never heard. One is How Can Love Survive, is that right?

[20:08] Jimi: Yeah, that's the duet between Baroness Schrader and Georg. And the basic plot is Elsa, the Duchess, is kind of bemoaning her relationship with the captain, that he doesn't have enough time for me, and stuff like that. And Max's thesis is like, drawn out love stories are for the poor. If you're rich, it is difficult. But they talk a lot about, I don't know, tanks and machine guns and weapons of war, because that's the background they're living in.

[20:37] Tommy: Exactly, exactly. And there's no kind of political songs in the film.

[20:46] Jimi: Right.

[20:48] Tommy: But the kind of book parts are kind of driven into a bit more because they, well, particularly the actors, wanted to try and make it more serious, the whole piece. Because Christopher Plummer and Julie Andrews, it turned out a wee bit later, were both actually quite reluctant, because they thought it was too fluffy. And I think having seen, because they're both stage actors, so they'll have seen the reception that it got on Broadway.

[21:19] Jimi: Yeah.

[21:21] Tommy: And so I think they might have just been a bit like, well, we don't just want to do a fluff piece. There's a great clip you can find. Julie Andrews was on, I think it was the Carol Burnett show, before the movie came out, doing a spoof number of The Sound of Music as Maria. And there's like a hundred Von Trapp children. It's very funny. And then, oops, Julia Andrews got cast as, yeah, right. But yeah, it's weird that it has this reputation as being this cotton candy sweet piece.

[21:58] Jimi: Yeah, for sure.

[22:00] Tommy: Because I just don't think it is. It's interesting because I don't know if they achieved making it less sweet in the film. I don't know if that, and I've read a lot of reviews or even just academic pieces where they say they've kind of replaced the sweetness with camp.

[22:20] Jimi: Sure.

[22:22] Tommy: And I can kind of see that. I can see that in some areas. Like the kind of jokey comedy in the, I keep forgetting what it's called. What?

[22:33] Jimi: Lonely Good Herd?

[22:34] Tommy: Oh, No Way to Stop It. No Way to Stop It, which is this kind of like bumpy song, you know what I mean, between the supporting characters. The supporting characters don't sing at all in the film, which I think is actually quite an interesting narrative point.

[22:53] Jimi: Sure.

[22:54] Tommy: Because it removes them from the loving music and joy that Maria's brought.

[22:59] Jimi: Right.

[22:59] Tommy: I think if the Baroness was able to sing, then that would be, you know, she would have an edge.

[23:05] Jimi: It gives her an extra superpower against Maria, yeah.

[23:07] Tommy: Right, right, right. But No Way to Stop It is the only song that really talks about, like explicitly, the, help me out, Anschluss.

[23:15] Jimi: The Anschluss, yeah. And by taking it out of the movie, you don't have like, fourth grade me certainly didn't understand that bit of sociopolitical commentary that's happening in Sound of Music movie.

[23:29] Tommy: Yeah. But then I guess it's like the song itself doesn't really go into detail about what it is. It just kind of, I guess in the way that it's supposed to, it's about being ignorant.

[23:40] Jimi: Yeah.

[23:40] Tommy: And living in the ignorance is bliss world. So it makes sense that they don't go into deep political detail about it. But, um, yeah, I just, I find it interesting that that's what they kind of had aimed to do with the film. I don't know if they achieved that necessarily. But, um, I think the Baroness, and we'll talk about this down the line, inhabits a few more like movie tropes in terms of characters. Like she reminds me a lot of Eve Carrington.

[24:14] Jimi: Um, from All About Eve and like sort of vampy.

[24:18] Tommy: Yeah.

[24:19] Jimi: Villainess.

[24:20] Tommy: Yeah.

[24:20] Jimi: As opposed to like, which she isn't as much of in the, the Broadway show. The other big thing concerning her as well, though, in terms of difference is, uh, the reason why, um, the Baron, Georg, the reason he doesn't marry her is very different.

[24:41] Tommy: Yes, absolutely. Um, so in the movie that we all know and love, um, he doesn't marry because he's just not in love with her. And he loves Maria more. And he doesn't want to leave his life in Salzburg. And his children to go live in this high life in Vienna. And it's quite a generic, you know, breaking apart. Um, in the musical, it's because of her ignorance that he leaves her. And he, you know, Maria and him do share the same kind of political ideology. It is much more, she's, she's going to be a Nazi soon, basically.

[25:24] Jimi: Yeah.

[25:24] Tommy: But she'll, she'll let that happen.

[25:26] Jimi: Right.

[25:26] Tommy: She might not agree with it, but she'll still let it happen.

[25:29] Jimi: Right.

[25:29] Tommy: Um, and so he is like, no, you're not for me. It is a really, in reading through a couple of academic articles about this one, I stumbled across this thought that shows up in a bunch of unpackings of this that I found fascinating. And I wanted to throw towards you that at the beginning of the play, the captain is kind of fascism, right? I mean, the way he handles his family, um, you know, just his whole demeanor. Is this like, there, there's, you know, the leader and like all of these kind of thinly veiled, regimented, there's instructions. And he, you know, he comes from a military background. That's where it's come into, but that is pleasing to his house.

[26:15] Jimi: Exactly.

[26:15] Tommy: And it is played off as he used to not be like this. He used to be, uh, he used to sing in the house. He used to play.

[26:23] Tommy: His wife died, and now all semblance of this has to go away. And then, as the plot of the movie progresses, right, it is Maria who brings the sound of music back into the house, and kind of softens him to this. And it is a... So then, the background, right, Germany is annexing Austria, kind of as the foreground for, you know, some of the big moves for World War II, which, let's say, is also a marriage. And so there becomes this kind of interesting marriage metaphor that stems throughout the thing, right, of like, who is the captain going to marry? Is he going to pick the Duchess? Or is he going to pick the Baroness? Or is he going to pick Maria, who's like a pastoral, rural, you know, wholesome symbol of all that is good of the folky nature of Austria?

And also, you know, parallel to them, you have Liesel and Rolf's will-they-won't-they, 16 going on 17, oops, he's a Nazi, kind of relationship, which also is that same kind of discussion. And it was one of those moments, like, oh, there's a pretty deep kind of metaphor running through this thing that I had never, you know, I've seen this thing a thousand times! I've made stupid YouTube videos about it, and had never even picked up on that kind of parallelism there.

[27:52] Garth: I think there's a lot of depth to it, and as we go into this episode, I think we'll unpick some things that you might think are a little bit weird, but I just, I like to give it its credit, you know? Like, why not? And the thing is, to think about this in the timeline of R&H as well, this is the end! This is their last piece that they did together. So they've learned a lot, you know, since Oklahoma. And it really shows, I think. It really shows. This is a much deeper, it does feel layered.

[28:26] Garth: It is. You can see a microcosm of the integration of the musical in the way we talk about it, right? The combination of story and song from Oklahoma to Sound of Music, through Rodgers and Hammerstein's progression of how they write musicals. And, you know, all that to say, perhaps that is why Sound of Music is the most beloved musical of all time, because as much as we say Oklahoma is the first, Sound of Music is, like, version one. Like, we've made it out of beta, like, this is a musical. This is the first musical musical.

[29:01] Garth: Oklahoma still holds a lot of these kind of tropes, that are still kind of crossovers from the Follies days of, well, we need to have our moments here. So they would still have the extended overture, the dream ballet, like all of the kind of comedy side-cracking characters.

[29:20] Garth: A-plot, B-plot, you know, the in-one piece. Sound of Music starts with basically a Gregorian chant from the nuns, right? Like, we're so out of overture land with this thing.

[29:32] Tommy: Exactly. Like, they're really, they've kind of torn up their own rulebook. And what they have done is they have created very much an integrated book musical. Yeah. Well, well done guys. Great work. But yeah, I think you need to really give the Sound of Music its credit. I don't think it is this kind of pithy, you know, oh, yes, it's just lovely and sweet, stereotypical musical theatre. I think it does have a good amount of substance to it.

[30:06] Garth: It's really moving. I mean, people wouldn't have their bachelorette parties in Austria if they didn't have an emotional connection to this thing.

[30:14] Tommy: It is so many people connect to this. It is interesting. I was because I was thinking about this beforehand, because I know you like saddling me with the summary portion of our podcast and thinking about how, what is the summary of this musical? Because it is a weird one, right? It's called The Sound of Music, which is perhaps the title song, but the existence of the sound of the literal sound of music in the thing is very veiled as a, as like a plot point. Like you, you see it, but they're, they're never like, you know, there, there isn't a scene where the maid walks in and sighs and goes, oh, and the children have learned to sing again, right? Like they don't really hammer home that point, which I think is great and a sign of really mature musical writing for its time.

[31:06] Garth: But it makes it kind of difficult to summarize and put together. I had a deeper point to this, but I lost it somewhere in the middle, thinking of this cool maid moment I was going to build. Anyway.

[31:18] Tommy: I love the maid moment. But no, I think you're on something there because I think if you look at the source material, what they've taken this from is, is literally a woman's memoirs about her life. And what they've actually been able to do is create an interesting narrative piece looking at Austria, you know, at the turn of World War Two. And what, you know, and like, yes, Maria, like the real Maria, this was that this was still happening. But the things that they've picked out, I find really interesting, like to see like what parts of her life, for example, like Maria, the real Maria got the calling because she was out in the hills and felt like this is too beautiful. And I can't give back to this. So all I can do is become a nun. I mean, that was her thing. Like she was a deeply, deeply religious woman. And I love that they've been able to integrate that into the musical Maria's character. That's how this whole show opens.

[32:37] Garth: Yeah, that's really important part of Maria von Trapp. But not in the sense of like, Maria has the calling. Right. You know, I mean, it's the hills are alive with the sound of music and it is this freed freedom and Austria. Yeah. And this whole thing that gets carried throughout the whole thing. And it's where the film ends. They get back into the hills and it's Austria. Yeah. And it's will keep the things that matter there whilst everything else is falling in around it. They're trying to pull this really interesting, difficult to describe nugget that is somewhere between the call of nature and appreciation of heritage, Austrian or otherwise, and religion and family and creativity through music.

Like they're trying to, you know, call all of that one kind of spark sort of thing and then write a show around how people experience that thing, which is what, you know, what makes it really appealing is that it is so indefinable. It is so general feeling, but also very humanistic and something that people can relate to on a bunch of different levels.

[33:41] Tommy: Yeah, totally. Totally. Well, now that we're starting to peel back the layers of the source material, shall we segue? Vroom, vroom!

[34:14] ♪ Musical number: "Do-Re-Mi" — performed by Julie Andrews and the cast ♪

[35:10] Tommy: Trying out something new.

[35:12] Garth: Why not? I'm in me mum's car. I've also been looking at a vine compilation.

[35:18] Tommy: Oh, oh, vine.

[35:21] Garth: Good old vine. Anyway, it's a fascinating life, family story. The origins of this is really interesting. I'm quite interested.

[35:36] Tommy: And fascinating. It blew my mind the first time I saw Julie Andrews singing with Maria von Trapp on whatever...

[35:43] Garth: I don't know what she's singing.

[35:45] Tommy: I think she teaches Julie Andrews how to yodel.

[35:50] Garth: Yeah, she basically just like, your yodeling's really shit. This is how you do it. And then just goes off and, bless Julie Andrews, she tries.

[35:58] Tommy: But how doubly bizarre to have a historically based musical, a very early historically based musical, pulled straight from history, where the subject of the musical are real people who would have been able to see it.

[36:16] Garth: Exactly. Did see it. Absolutely did see it. The thing is, the events that took place in this memoir happened like 20 years before. That would be like writing Millennium, the musical.

[36:32] Tommy: Yeah. Yeah.

[36:34] Garth: I mean, that's crazy.

[36:36] Tommy: I mean, I guess, you know what the most recent example we've seen of this is Come From Away.

[36:40] Garth: Come From Away. Yeah, absolutely. 2001.

[36:43] Tommy: Yeah, it's that same sort of thing.

[36:45] Garth: Where this, you know, people are getting to see their story played out and we all know about what happened and can relate.

[36:55] Tommy: But yeah, I mean, there's loads like, do you know, it kind of reminded me of when we were researching for Titanic. And you fall into these warrens.

[37:06] Garth: Everything is meticulously analysed.

[37:10] Tommy: Right. And it's so interesting that this poor family, whether they like it or not, their entire family history is laid out for the world to see.

[37:21] Garth: And yeah, I think where I find the interest is what they've taken from reality and put into the musical.

[37:35] Tommy: I think that I want kind of everyone to go watch is this particular documentary hosted by Sue Perkins, who will now be known as Superkins.

[37:48] Garth: Superkins. I just learned this. It's delightful. I've known Sue from QI.

[37:53] Tommy: I can't take credit for it.

[37:56] Garth: I can't take credit for it.

[37:58] Tommy: Well, I first heard it from James Acaster, who you'll also know.

[38:01] Garth: Adore, deeply.

[38:03] Tommy: Yep. So him and Ed Gamble, who you'll also know, have a podcast called Off Menu.

[38:10] Garth: Don't know that, but that's fun.

[38:12] Tommy: Oh, get that listened to. It's great. So basically, little side, very, very brief sidetrack. The two of them get in a guest and they talk about their dream menu in a restaurant.

[38:25] Garth: So they choose still a sparkling water. The interesting one is poppadoms or bread. It doesn't really translate to across the pond, but very much so in British.

[38:34] Tommy: Then start our main side drink dessert.

[38:38] Garth: That sounds like a fantastic structure for a podcast.

[38:41] Tommy: It's incredible. It's really like go go listen right now. It's really, really good.

[38:45] Garth: Anyway, I was talking to Perkins documentary.

[38:49] Tommy: Super documentary. Thank you.

[38:52] Garth: Is really, really good and probably because there's nine million documentaries about the same. But this one in particular, I mean, it's just focused on the film.

[39:02] Tommy: But this one in particular, I just find to be the most documentary style.

[39:11] Garth: Perhaps because it's British, by the way.

[39:14] Tommy: Yeah, because it's, you know, it's sound music is your baby.

[39:18] Garth: Yeah. I mean, remind me how I want to talk about the Americanness of this thing later. But yeah, right. You know what I mean?

[39:34] Jimi: And the thing that I love most about it is that she goes and speaks to so many of the Von Trapp family, whether it's the grandkids or the actual kids. There's the most beautiful, heartbreaking scene with, she's with the Von Trapp daughter who was called Maria, who is now, I think, well into her, I think she was, she might be in her hundreds now, I actually can't remember, but extremely, extremely old. She's lost the ability to speak English; she can't speak English anymore. She can only speak German. She spent a lot of time in a mission in Papua New Guinea and is now taken care of by her adopted son from Papua New Guinea, and it is really adorable. And the whole clip is just her playing the accordion for Sue Perkins.

Sue Perkins also weirdly joining in on the accordion; didn't know she could play the accordion, turns out. And it is just so beautiful and sweet. Anyway, there's stuff that has a bit more substance to it. In particular, she speaks to one of the, no, not grandkids, one of the actual kids, who's a daughter of real Maria, once she had married into the family, because they had three more kids after she married Georg. And she was basically, it just sounds like the rosy, lovely life presented in the film was not the rosy, lovely life that existed. For many reasons, but she was basically saying that her and her two siblings that were born post-marriage weren't really paid attention to. The focus was on the singers.

Interesting kids. Yeah, I mean, who'd been working? And, yes, it's, again, I think the best thing to do is just go in and watch it. Because it's really heartbreaking. Heartbreaking to like how, yeah, her life has just been so skewed by this working family and it called up like all of the kind of things you think about like with the Jacksons or the Osmonds, you know what I mean? Where we have these full families today. And that is basically what, you know, I mean, when they came across to America, I don't know what it was like in Germany. And also mixed in, you know, with the religion. And that seems to have had a huge, significant impact on it. Like she's never married to this girl because she was taught to be scared of boys and that boys were taboo and not something you should trifle with. Yeah. And so she's remained unmarried. And it's, yeah, it's really interesting to see just how different that whole vibe is.

[42:46] Tommy: Yeah, yeah, it is. I mean, I don't think it takes a stretch of the imagination. You're expats from a soon-to-be war-torn country who didn't, I believe Georg lost most of his money by trying to reinvest it into an Austrian bank when they were in London, I believe, before they'd moved to America and then lost it all. And that's why they became a kind of working singing family because there was no money. They had no money. It's not a happy story after the credits roll. And it's just interesting that because the musical has become such a cultural phenomenon that it is hard to wrap your mind around. No, no, like these are real people and their lineage, their line continued afterwards. And they might have some.

Yeah, that's fascinating to me. It's really, it's totally worth a watch. The other thing as well is that I think pretty much all the kids and the grandkids talk about, obviously, what they think about the film and the musical. And for the most part, they like it. But the thing that they really disagree with, and the thing that I think mars it for them is the portrayal of their dad. And again, this one I found really, really interesting. So apparently he is like the loveliest man, like was so, so nice, always saying, you know, I mean, like, yeah, it was very musical, very creative. And I think it's Johannes, who was another one of the three born after the marriage, who talks about the fact that in the film, they're kind of portrayed as these like, oh, we'll sing about Doremi and Ladi Dan will dance about in curtains.

And he was like, no, we actually like, we were musicians. And this was our life. And we really, you know, and I think he was like, our portrayal is that we're just this quite base, you know, frivolous little family, whereas actually, we really cared about this, we had taste and understood art and were sensitive to all of this. And we're just like this flighty upper-class family who are running about the hills. And I find that perspective, as well as the kind of disappointment they had in the portrayal of their dad, just quite, again, just quite interesting, because I get why they made Georg in the film, and the musical story where the way they did, because you need a story, it's a more interesting story.

Absolutely. Right? Yeah, exactly. Maria comes in, she has to change the family. She can't just come in and continue along with the family. But I can see for the kids, if they held him so dear in their hearts, why it would upset them.

[45:54] Jimi: Yeah, you know, because it's like, well, now everyone's gonna think my dad is a big tyrant, right? He did whistle. Apparently, he did whistle. But he also said, right, so how do you I'm, I'm curious, just your perspective, we pre-show, we were talking about the Diana musical that's coming back to Broadway early. And like there, there are lots of these shows that purport to be docu-musicals contemporarily. And this is maybe an early stab at that certainly doesn't portray itself to be a docu-musical, but also portrays itself to be real very much so. Yeah, and clearly isn't. I wonder what your thoughts are on like, is it a disservice to, I don't know the best way to phrase it, reality, to bend things in this direction or that direction in the case of the Sound of Music purposes of storytelling?

[46:57] Tommy: Yeah, you know, or even specifically in this case, like the Sound of Music fall on the like, Oh, yeah, but it's okay, because it serves this purpose or like, Oh, no, no, this is beyond, you know, crosses some line. I think, because the thing is, is I don't think I don't look at Baron von Trapp as a bad guy at all. I think he seems like a really good father. I think he's going through some grief, you know, and is coping with that. Absolutely. And however way you can in 1930. And also, he's a man of the army, you know, so I don't, I don't look at him as like, all this horrible man. So I think it is okay, like, because I think the story needs it. Yeah, absolutely. And, yeah, I think as long as you're not really taking license, to the point, I guess, to the point where people would believe something completely, because at the end of the day, people, people like, right, people don't have a negative Baron von Trapp.

Right. If, but if on the other hand, he was painted, right, as a bit more of a tyrant or, you know, something, then that I would say is bad, because that's his leg. This is his legacy. Absolutely. You know, nobody, nobody really remembers him from the band days. They remember him from the side. They remember Christopher Plummer. Yeah. Right. And the vast majority of people aren't going to take time to read, you know, archival articles about the family and who they really were. Right. So, you know, I think you do need to be mindful of things like that, if you're adapting from real life. Sure. Would you agree?

[48:45] Jimi: I think so. It's just fascinating. Like, if someone wanted to make a thing like the Sound of Music today, it would, it would be a legal nightmare. Right. With IP and everything. And just the number, you know, like, what descendant of who wants to get their cut of blah, blah, blah. And so, you know, easier to just write a fictional story or give them different names. Right. Do you know how much she sold the rights to her story for?

[49:11] Tommy: I'm sure it's a pittance. It wasn't too bad, but I mean, I guess in those days, $9,000. I mean, that's nothing. What's the, didn't you call it the third highest grossing movie of all time?

[49:23] Jimi: Yeah. Isn't that nuts? You know, I do also think it is, and hashtag TMTM, we might get to it later, but there is a historical rosiness that this movie kind of paints about World War II and Austria and Nazism, and that gives it a distant quaintness that I think can be a little damaging. And I guess that's kind of beside my question about the family. But I don't know, it's all kind of conflated in my brain. Like, it's no cabaret. Right. And like, cabaret never purports itself to be reality. Right. Right. You know, it never says, it doesn't start with like, Sally Bowles lived on to, you know, or right, whatever, they're like, based on a true story. Whereas these people are real, and decades of, whether it's variety shows or documentaries, have purported like, and now, meet the real Von Trapps, and here's where they lived, and here's what they ate, and here's what they sang.

And when that becomes conflated with a piece of fiction, the movie and the musical, then that leads you to believe the rest of it has nuggets of truth in it in ways that might be damaging or harmful. That's why I asked the question.

[50:50] Tommy: Yeah. Well, and I sort of met a layer of that. A couple of the grandkids in that documentary talk about the fact that the real Maria Von Trapp actually fictionalized a lot of her own life in the memoirs and things that didn't happen. And I think she painted some narratives of her own, which I find extra interesting, because you're like, you know, they're pulling from a reality that isn't necessarily reality. And you do hear it, like a lot of them speak about her as a woman, and that she was very much a force to be reckoned with. You know, they talk about the fact that the thing that kept her going throughout everything was the ability to perform for an audience and the ability to connect with other people.

And that was what she loved the most, was just going out and speaking to people. And, you know, after she's met with a crowd of hundreds of people, she'd be as high energy as ever. And she did like university lectures. And you can kind of see it like in the skits that she does with Julie Andrews. She's a natural, you know, like she is a natural there. You wouldn't think this from just, you know, this former nun from Salzburg appearing on, you know, National American television, but she is a complete natural there. But apparently she had like a harder edge to her that does not feature whatsoever. And the film or the musical, like Maria is a strong character. Right? Absolutely. But in her own way, it isn't it doesn't come from a place of

[52:46] Jimi: And actually, one of the daughters has a really interesting theory, and again, I would rather, like, it's better just to go and watch the documentary to find out why. But yeah, there's definitely more to the story, I think, than what anyone actually knows, you know, that just these kids will really know. I do think it is that particular thing that has a meta layer, made the continued legacy of Sound of Music such a persistent thing, is that the musical on its own was a fantastic piece of art that people really enjoyed at the time. And then there is this Pandora's box you can open of who were the real Von Trapps? What was Austria like? What was the, you know, and like each little detail to pull apart, which a certain kind of person, us included, I think, can find really interesting. And why there are a thousand documentaries about this, like, and here's, and then you unpack the movie. Here's the real hill they filmed it on.

[53:50] Tommy: Right, right, exactly. And so because it wasn't sunny and they put the trees there, like all these things, you know, they fell out of the boat four times and Gretel couldn't swim, you know, right up with their like smashing her ankle. I couldn't believe that story.

[54:07] Jimi: I know. Isn't that wild? But see, that's the thing, because that's so fascinating. It continues the life of this thing. And there's a whole narrative built around the existence of this piece of art that, you know, is, you can't do that with a lot of other pieces.

[54:25] Tommy: Yeah. And yeah, I agree. And it's, but it's great that we can with this because it allows us to really flex our muscle. Like in my idealist of ideal worlds, we'd be able to do this with every single show that we talk about. Sadly, that's not the case, but I'm more than happy we get to do it now. And Hey, I think that's something that are quite good segue as we get deeper and deeper into the analysis.

[55:01] Jimi: Let's make things up.

[55:01] Tommy: Yeah. Yeah. Get ready for the next section.

[55:17] ♪ Musical number: "Edelweiss" — performed by Tommy and Jimi ♪

[56:07] Jimi: Yeah, I just find it really interesting. So this whole section, this section is inspired by a writer, an academic called Stacy Wolf. Now I read her book, A Problem Like Maria: Gender and Sexuality and the American Musical, available at all good bookstores. Maybe I don't know, maybe some bookstores. And what I find really interesting is she is a lesbian female author. And I was like, Hey, that's a perspective on musical theater I have not really read before. And I loved it. I loved that because I was like, Oh, this feels all felt extremely fresh. A lot of it felt extremely alien, because I'm like literally the opposite of, you know, a lot, a lot of my viewpoints.

[57:03] Tommy: Um, but I find it really interesting. And she does a significant portion talking about the kind of lesbian reading of The Sound of Music.

[57:19] Jimi: Absolutely. A lot of it is predicated on the inception of the musical, The Sound of Music. And there's a long winding story. There was a series of documentaries about the Von Trapp family that were popular in Germany, German language films, that then I think 20th Century Fox bought the rights to, but then abandoned these projects or something like that. All leading up to, uh, then maybe they'll make a play out of it. And who do we want to cast in this play? Mary Martin. And the play didn't really take off, but Mary Martin was really interested in the project. And so it seems like a lot of the inception of the musical, The Sound of Music was driven by Mary Martin's desire to be the role of Maria.

[58:14] Tommy: Yeah, definitely. Well, I think just Mary, yeah. Mary Martin was just really into this character. And it's really interesting because she talks a lot about how she has only ever really played young boys or, you know, these kind of big tomboyish women, you know, Annie Oakley's, et cetera. And it's really interesting that she's like, and with Maria, I kind of, it feels like for the first time get to play a woman.

[58:51] Jimi: Um, and I just find that so interesting because when you think of strong, like feminine character, you know what I mean? Like stereotypical women. I don't think you put Maria on top of that list. Maria's a great, uh, I think a great female lead role in a sea of terrible female lead roles in musical theater. And a lot of them written by Richard Rodgers.

[59:14] Tommy: Right. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, like, um, but I completely agree, especially again, especially at this time. Um, we, you know, we've not had her Dolly Levi's yet. She was great, but, um, the, I think Maria is a really interesting character and, um, I was made to love the character so much more after reading Stacey Wolfe's perspective on it. Um, so apparently Maria is, uh, a massive lesbian icon news to me, particularly.

[59:53] Jimi: Well, again, sure. Right. But as you were saying, particularly within the 30 to 40s age bracket, which I can understand. Um, but I would be interested to know what like our young queer kids today thought about Maria.

[1:00:05] Tommy: Yeah. And it is, I mean, we say this a lot. I've never felt more out of my bailiwick than in this kind of commentary, to be entirely honest. Massively. Um, massively.

[1:00:21] Jimi: But how interesting is that? Because honestly I would be like, oh yeah, queer representation in music theater, please master by top. And I'm like, oh wait, actually there's a whole other section of the world where I'm like, no idea. Stacey Wolfe starts her specific article, The Queer Pleasures of Mary Martin and Broadway, The Sound of Music as a Lesbian Musical with first kind of an unpacking of like, basically, okay, okay, okay. We get it. Gay guys in musicals. Done. Understood. Figured it out. There's a whole other dick on that. But lesbians, right, is kind of how she gets into this kind of discussion, which is fascinating.

[1:01:05] Tommy: And one, you know, man, if the nuns who had shown me this movie in Catholic school had only known.

[1:01:12] Jimi: Oh, by the way, exactly. Um, it's so, but just like everything is true. And the thing is, is I don't think at any point she thinks that Richard Rodgers and Oscar Hammerstein were writing a coded lesbian musical. Absolutely not. Right. That isn't what they were doing. But, um, you've got to give her that, like, in terms of otherness and queerness, Maria ticks a lot of those boxes. And there's little things that she pulls out, like, for example, the opening of the whole piece, you get the kind of dichotomy of the nuns in this very rigid, dark structure.

[1:02:11] Tommy: Dark structure.

[1:02:15] Jimi: And then Maria is sitting under a tree and her legs crossed and her wimples up. And she's like, you know, ladding out, to use a much better term. But, you know, she is not representing this stereotypical lead female that we have grown to expect, particularly by this stage in the musical theater.

[1:02:36] Tommy: Absolutely. And barring the rest of the plot that precedes it, how do you solve a problem like Maria is like, ah, what, what a queer little person she is, right?

[1:02:43] Jimi: Right. How do we, like, we don't understand. How do we figure this one out? She's so different.

[1:02:55] Tommy: Exactly. And like, she's not doing anything, like, stereotypically queer. Although I did, she did make an allusion to the short hair thing. And actually, I was like, that is interesting, but I wonder if that is just an offcut from Mary Martin, because Mary Martin had short hair. Is that why Maria has short hair?

[1:03:10] Jimi: It is important to note as well that like, like a lot of Broadway performers through history, right? Mary Martin has a maybe secret, not so secret, bisexual history on Broadway that may or may not have informed the character of Maria, either intentionally or unintentionally, right?

[1:03:25] Tommy: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I find that that's such a tricky one, because obviously we don't know. And you can't rewrite history with stuff like that. But it would, it would make a lot of sense. You know, I mean, it would, it would fill a lot of blanks. The scene that made me like, totally buy it, right? I'm like, actually, no, I think this is all metaphorical.

[1:03:45] Jimi: And it was when I was watching the film in this new context, is the scene when Maria leaves the Von Trapps and goes back to the Abbey. And the Reverend Mother calls her in, because she's aware that Maria is really going through something. And she has this conversation with the Reverend Mother, which is like, the Reverend's like, well, why did you, why did you leave? And she's like, I just felt so confused. I, I was out of my depth, you know, I didn't know what I was wanting. And it's like, she's gone into this sort of hotbed of temptation away from the kind of normality and structure of the nun world into this place where she's experiencing basically heterosexuality for the first time.

[1:04:35] Tommy: And if you watch it again, she is having a coming out conversation with the Reverend Mother. And then when the Reverend Mother starts singing Climb Every Mountain, you're like, this is a gate. And like, it is.

[1:04:50] Jimi: Right. But it's never felt like that to me before.

[1:04:54] Tommy: It is. I've never looked at it. Like, I've always just been like, it's about confidence. And it's about, you know, overcoming obstacles, but not from a queer perspective. But now I'm like, oh my God, this is deeply emotional. And it's a completely different perspective. And it's something I would never have thought of before. And I loved it. So I implore everyone to go back and rewatch that scene with that in mind.

[1:05:18] Jimi: And it does feel like that's what they're writing.

[1:05:22] Tommy: Yeah. Intentionally or not. And it is, well, I mean, obviously, unintentionally. I think worth it to say.

[1:05:27] Jimi: Absolutely. Worth it to acknowledge. Rewind, let's say, you know, unintentionally. But that's, you know, that's queer viewing of pieces pre-1970, right? Is you're never going to find the out gay character. So you have to read in what you want to see, what you're looking for.

[1:05:49] Tommy: Yeah. Yeah. The other end on that kind of point. So because the one that I did pick out and I was like, yes, I am an academic. Ha ha ha ha.

[1:05:57] Jimi: The obvious coding of Max Detweiler and what I have now learned, also Baroness Schrader.

[1:06:07] Tommy: Sure. Because Max is very much like the classic dandy, you know, I love opulence and singing children, you know, it's really blatant. When you understand the concept. Of all the characters for a show written in the late 1950s, Max is perhaps intentionally coded gay? Yes, I would say a hundred percent. Like, he ticks all of the boxes. Like, I think if you know anything, if you've watched your documentary, Musical Theatre So Gay, which I always find, like, my brain's like, God, I gotta go back and make one with Maria in it now. And Max and all the coded characters I've missed.

[1:06:53] Jimi: That you now have discovered. And I think it's like you start seeing it, especially from shows around this time. But it's so true. But the one that I wasn't as much aware of is the fact that Baroness Schrader is the same and that they're in essence a couple, like a gay couple. And a brand new term that I need to learn a lot more about is a vampire lesbian.

[1:07:20] Tommy: That's a new one for me, too. Right, exactly. So I don't know what that means, but Stacy Wolf says that is the representation. And I think it's this kind of like, it is that sort of Eve Harrington style, you know, I mean, eyebrow raised, look to the camera. I can invent what it means in my brain. I'm just worried that I'm missing something.

[1:07:44] Jimi: Right, exactly. Yeah. But I think, you know, the powerful, strong, confident, eyebrow raised woman is my basic interpretation. But I need to learn a lot more. And I'm excited, too, because it sounds cool. Vampire lesbian. But, you know, like that, this kind of like, gay reading, I'm like, I am obsessed. I will say full disclosure, because I was scouring for articles and actually asked Jimmy if he could find the full text of this one for me. And going into it, title and abstract alone, I was in like full eye roll territory. Like pure skeptic. Yeah, was like, oh, yeah, because because and I think especially I because I had come off of an article that said it was I believe it was the sound the sound of music, communist propaganda, question mark.

Right. And like, yeah, because this show is so huge. Right. Everyone has analyzed anything into this. Exactly. And so I was coming off of that. And I still do think this might be a tiny part of that. Right. Like, I think so. But I and it is what what I think is good when you read the book is that Stacey Wolfe is very much coming at it from the point of view of this is my experience, like as a young gay person watching this film and seeing this character and falling in love. I mean, like that is very much my experience. And this is my reading of it. And she speaks to a number of other lesbian females of different backgrounds. And a lot of them have a really similar story. And that's why I think she's been like, so I'm going to make this thesis. It’s not a she isn't saying this is right. But here let me write down my experience for. But this is how I took it.

[1:09:39] Tommy: Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense, which I really like. I think that's because that is, you know, however, it goes into the diva. I mean, it sits into that. And the thing is, is it's totally worth a read because she has whole chapters on Julie Andrews, Mary Martin, Barbra Streisand and Ethel Merriman as well. I've like these early divas and how they fit into the sort of gender and queerness nebula that we love. What's the what's the title of the book for people who are at Amazon right now?

[1:10:16] Jimi: The book is A Problem Like Maria, topical gender and sexuality in the American musical by Stacey, that is S-T-A-C-Y Wolf, W-O-L-F. And it's really good. I really recommend it.

[1:10:37] Tommy: I'm gonna check my local bookstore the moment we're done with this podcast.

[1:10:44] Jimi: I mean, really good luck getting it at your local bookstore. But there's way.

[1:10:49] Tommy: Yeah, fair.

[1:10:49] Jimi: It's Michigan, the University of Michigan Press.

[1:10:57] Tommy: Okay, helpful. Yeah, that's a state I can go to.

[1:11:02] Jimi: Yeah, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna go to Michigan and be like, I want the book.

[1:11:09] Tommy: She's an associate professor of theater at the University of Texas at Austin. Thanks, Stacey. Wolf. Big fan. Big fan of your perspective. And also like I know that we have queer female listeners on this podcast. And I think they need to tell us their yeah, please, because that was all brand new information. Please help us out. Help us. You know, I it's we're learning. This is what this is what the discord is for. Like, you know, I mean, we're all in the alphabet family and we all need to be. And I think it's like I'm really excited to move the conversation away from musical theater. So yeah, it's been done. Someone already made a three part YouTube video on it.

[1:12:11] Jimi: Right, exactly. How about musical theater? So LGB, you know, I mean, like, let's move it in that TQIA plus. Well, yes, but for that's true. You know, sexuality. I'll take that back. I think it's only LGB so far. I was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, fair. You know, but hopefully, yeah, we could aspire for it to be fire for greatness. And we'll get there. Yep, yep, yep, yep. But yeah, very interesting, different reading of this thing that we've known for years of our lives. I just thought it was pretty cool.

[1:12:24] Tommy: That's so fun.

[1:12:24] ♪ Musical number: "Something Good" — performed by Julie Andrews ♪

[1:13:31] Jimi: This musical is so popular. Yep. You can get Maria Christmas ornaments.

[1:13:48] Tommy: Can you? And like not from the TKTS booth or like some like Broadway theme, right? You know, or the like, could you get like a hallmark?

[1:13:57] Jimi: Yeah. Like you like they play Sound of Music during Easter on ABC Family. Yeah. Which is weird, right? It's like, it's like how or I don't think it's called ABC Family anymore. It's been a while since I've had cable. But like, you know, the 25 Days of Christmas now includes the Harry Potter movies. Yes. It's one of those weird theming things. Um, yeah, but like, I don't know, I had this question earlier, and I'm trying to say these sorts of things less because I think they're gatekeepy and judgy, but like, everyone knows about the Sound of Music. I think like, that's a safe bet to say that, right? Like, this is, if you're gonna know one, right? Surely. And so like the question, the question I thought of when we were like making the section is like, why? Because it's, yeah, it's a, it is a good musical. It is not a stellar musical by any means, right? Right. You know, it's not in my top 10. It's not on my re-listen. But like songs in this are our standards, right?

[1:15:13] Tommy: Absolutely. And maybe that's why it's not in our re-listen because we know the songs. Do you know what I mean? We know, and it's like, they're lovely. Like, they're good songs. Like, actually, to be fair, Something Good, um, is my favorite Rodgers and Hammerstein song, full stop.

[1:15:29] Jimi: Yeah, that's fair. It's absolutely beautiful. That is, hold on, that is interesting to me because I do think Something Good is such a weird, I find it very problematic song.

[1:15:40] Tommy: Oh, okay. Because it is, well, just because there is this assumption of like, I'm able to fall in love with you, Georg, because in spite of my faults in my upbringing, I probably did something right at some point.

[1:15:59] Jimi: Well, I, I've interpreted it more as, I finally feel happy and I finally claimed my mountain. And it's great up here. It was horrible down there, but I've made it up here. And just that kind of very innocent way of just thinking like, gosh, I must have done something really good to get here. And it, you know, there's, there's faith involved in there of karmic retribution. To be honest, I just, lyrically, I don't really care. I just think it's a beautiful sounding song. And also, I only care about Julie Andrews singing it. Let's just get that point out there.

[1:16:47] Tommy: It is, it is fascinating. And this is perhaps a little bit of a sidebar. I had never much listened to the Mary Martin, uh, OBC, which you can, you can find very well remastered. Um, it is a, the two of them next to each other is a masterclass in the difference between, um, uh, what would have been the sound amplification technology on Broadway at the time and what we've come to expect to become the traditional Broadway sound. Um, and it's, it's really, it's, it's like, if you're looking for the difference, that's the difference. Is Mary Martin had to get her voice to the back of the auditorium, even on the pretty bits.

[1:17:29] Jimi: Yes. It's like, cause I don't, I don't really like the OBC. I'm not going to lie. Like the one that I listened to is the recent, I guess the 2006 West End revival, the one with Carrie, Connie Fisher, uh, just cause it's, it is cleaner and it just feels more.

[1:17:51] Tommy: Well, cause they have body microphones and yeah, exactly, exactly. Um, but so, you know, why is the show so popular? I think a lot of it is because it's safe. It's very safe.

[1:18:08] Jimi: Yeah. I think like it sits, I think it sits in the musical theater vein diagram nicely in the middle of, um, fun, catchy songs and take your family to the theater and, um, compelling enough story to hold your attention for two hours, you know what I mean? And it sits in that very, you know, difficult to sit in bracket. Um, and I genuinely think that is it like it, it just, it was early enough that it hit a sweet spot. And, um,

[1:18:49] Tommy: the thing is, I also think a lot of it is to do with Julie Andrews.

[1:18:53] Jimi: Sure. And her longevity of, of fame, honestly.

[1:18:58] Tommy: Yeah. She is so beloved because also Mary Poppins.

[1:19:03] Jimi: Right. Well, you know what I mean? Which was almost concurrently produced with the Sound of Music.

[1:19:09] Jimi: Yeah, so she was discovered from the dailies of Mary Poppins, and the director was like, I want her, let's cast her, and then she was cast. So she wasn't even in a film yet. Yeah, Mary Poppins was still in post-production, because it had a long post-production schedule, as you would imagine. The story is she entertained the kids on the set of The Sound of Music by teaching them this new wacky word, supercalifragilisticexpialidocious, that no one had ever heard before. It's delightful.

[1:19:41] Tommy: I've heard this asserted, but I want to hear it from the mouth of babes. Pretend that metaphor made sense. How do people from the UK view Mary Poppins?

[1:19:47] Jimi: Are you calling me babes?

[1:19:53] Tommy: Yeah, you're babes. How do people from the UK view Julie Andrews?

[1:19:59] Jimi: I love that you called her Mary Poppins. I know, I screwed it up the first time. I really love that. No, I really accept that. That's great. With the deepest of reverence, because she's named Julie Andrews. I'm speaking from a very personal standpoint here, but in a way, and Tommy, I appreciate this is sacrilege for you, more so than Angela Lansbury.

[1:20:27] Tommy: No, no, I understand. I think, okay, this is, follow me with this. Julie Andrews feels more American to me than Angela Lansbury does.

[1:20:36] Jimi: Oh, interesting.

[1:20:48] Tommy: I would have thought the opposite, but maybe that's because of Murder, She Wrote.

[1:20:52] Jimi: Perhaps. And Angela Lansbury has a longstanding American accent role. The reason I bring this up is I've seen asserted that Julie Andrews is very much a Hollywood film star, which makes her America's version of Britishness, and that there's an extra layer in there. In the same way that I thought Dick Van Dyke's Cockney accent was a Cockney accent for much of my life. But that there is, and perhaps this is wrong, or perhaps I've misinterpreted this, a subset of people who view Julie Andrews much more as a Yank than as a Brit, which I just thought is an interesting assessment of this.

[1:21:43] Tommy: I think it is, but I think it's because of those two roles, Princess Diaries aside, of course, but because of those two roles, because of Mary Poppins, because of Maria Von Trapp, which are weirdly American-European stories. I mean, as British as Mary Poppins is, and as Austrian as The Sound of Music is, they are American tales.

[1:22:09] Jimi: I've seen write-ups of this exact thing, that it is not England, it's American England, and it's not Austria, it's American Austria.

[1:22:19] Tommy: Exactly. It is through a lens, and that lens is definitely, you know, bring me your poor and huddled masses, America. It is that American dream vibe. And I think that would explain it. But I think regardless of where you are in the world, you just hold her with the deepest of respect.

[1:22:41] Jimi: Like, you know, I mean, like, she's, like, transcends even, like, Ian McKellen.

[1:22:51] Tommy: Sure.

[1:22:52] Jimi: You know what I mean? In terms of, or Judi Dench.

[1:22:55] Tommy: She's everybody's mom.

[1:22:56] Jimi: She is just, yeah, she's a goddess.

[1:23:00] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:23:00] Jimi: You know what I mean? Like, I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out, oh, actually, she is a goddess. And obviously, I think a big part of that, very tragically, is what happened to her vocally.

[1:23:10] Tommy: Oh, it's so, it is so sad. It's the saddest story in the world.

[1:23:17] Jimi: The ultimate, like, literally the ultimate tragedy. This person with a voice gifted from heaven loses it.

[1:23:26] Tommy: It is taken away from her by a malpractice. So, you know, I think that adds into the mythology of Julie Andrews, which only bolsters her so much.

[1:23:36] Jimi: Because now we have this archive of Mary Poppins, The Sound of Music, where we can listen to her and appreciate. And that's, I mean, that's just the film stuff. Obviously, there's Victor/Victoria, there's Camelot. We have all this My Fair Lady, like, this Broadway canon.

[1:23:54] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:23:54] Jimi: Cinderella.

[1:23:55] Tommy: Cinderella, yeah. You know, I mean, there's so much of this Julie Andrews archive that we can dip into. And that, we'll never get that again. You know, and so that just adds on to the reverence. And I think that is a, that is a reason why.

[1:24:11] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:24:13] Jimi: The Sound of Music is so popular still to this day, because it's a way for us to listen to that voice. When it is, I mean, this is the kind of spiral story thing, perhaps we were talking about at the beginning. But like, it's called The Sound of Music. It's about music. It's filled with music. And a lot of the plot centers around the teaching of music. And that's what, and then she's the music. She's the one who is doing the music. And so it kind of spirals in on Julie Andrews.

[1:24:43] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:24:43] Jimi: But I think what's really interesting is this role exists because of Mary Martin.

[1:24:48] Tommy: Right.

[1:24:48] Jimi: Not because of, and so much of it was written, not for Julie Andrews's voice. Not that Mary Martin has a bad voice. Mary Martin has a gorgeous voice. But Mary Martin has an old school Broadway voice.

[1:25:00] Tommy: Absolutely.

[1:25:01] Jimi: That is, you know, more Ethel, less, I don't know, Chenoweth.

[1:25:12] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:25:12] Jimi: Okay. I couldn't think of anybody.

[1:25:14] Tommy: Oh, why not?

[1:25:15] Jimi: But no one can come close to Julie Andrews. So yeah, go with Chenoweth. But, you know, all these songs written to be, you know, mildly belty, make it to the back of the house that then Julie Andrews, you know, she opts up at the very end of Doe a Deer just because she could.

[1:25:29] Tommy: Right.

[1:25:30] Jimi: Because she can. Right. And unnecessary, unneeded, but so wonderfully impressive.

[1:25:36] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:25:38] Jimi: But I think that's a really fascinating part of all of this, though, that no one associates Mary Martin with this role.

[1:25:46] Tommy: Right.

[1:25:47] Jimi: I still see Mary Martin as Peter Pan in the...

[1:25:51] Tommy: Mary Martin is Peter Pan.

[1:25:53] Jimi: Like, unfortunately, I'm sorry if that isn't what she wants. And that's fine because that is very much her in the same way that Maria Von Trapp is very much Julie Andrews. But yeah, I just find it a really interesting part that, you know, Mary Martin paved the way for this. It's the reason why Georg is a smaller character.

[1:26:20] Tommy: Sure.

[1:26:20] Jimi: You know, there's not really a leading man in this show. It is very much Maria centric.

[1:26:27] Tommy: Um, I see Mother Abbess and Mother Superior.

[1:26:30] Jimi: Mother Superior?

[1:26:31] Tommy: Mother Abbess? Which one are we in this show?

[1:26:32] Jimi: Oh man, I said...

[1:26:33] Tommy: Mother Superior, I think?

[1:26:34] Jimi: I said Mother Abbess earlier. Do I mean Mother Superior? What's Mother Abbess from?

[1:26:38] Tommy: Is it both of them?

[1:26:40] Jimi: Oh, it is Abbess, I think.

[1:26:43] Tommy: Mother Superior is Sister Act, I think.

[1:26:45] Jimi: Man, and...

[1:26:46] Tommy: And Abbess is The Sound of Music. I can't begin to tell you...

[1:26:49] Jimi: You're the Catholic.

[1:26:49] Tommy: I know. And I was about to say, I can't begin to tell you how much Catholic school, like, fucked me up because I associate this movie so closely to Sister Act.

[1:26:59] Jimi: And they are such different things.

[1:27:02] Tommy: But it's because they were on...

[1:27:04] Jimi: But they do have nun capers. That's the only reason.

[1:27:06] Tommy: And man, do I love me a good nun caper.

[1:27:08] Jimi: There is nothing funnier.

[1:27:10] Tommy: Yeah, exactly.

[1:27:11] Jimi: There is nothing funnier to me. And it happens both at the end of The Sound of Music and Sister Act than a bunch of nuns running around to upbeat music. Like, I am, like, suppressing a laugh right now. Because of how funny I just find the image of a bunch of nuns running around.

[1:27:27] Tommy: It's great.

[1:27:30] Jimi: We love those. What's her face in Madeline running through the halls going, something is not right? Very funny to me. And I don't think she's even a nun.

[1:27:43] Tommy: Anyway, to return...

[1:27:44] Jimi: All that to say, I think the other huge cause of the, like, long-standing impact of this is organized religion. I, like, tried to do some research to back up my theory and couldn't find anything really concrete. So I present this as another conspiracy theory. I think this movie is pushed by the contemporary Catholic Church. This movie and this musical and its continued production is... And is why we get all these weird documentaries about The Sound of Music and things like that.

[1:28:17] Tommy: Because nuns are featured so prominently in it.

[1:28:20] Jimi: And even just the language of it, right?

[1:28:24] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:28:24] Jimi: You know, there's all talk about, like, being blessed and things like that. And it is a good, very safe discussion of, like, you don't need to be a nun to be religious, right? You don't need to be super committed to the church to still go to church, to still trust in God. But because it's not like Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, God, God, God, it's really easy to slip in as a piece of pop culture.

[1:28:52] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:28:53] Jimi: I present that as a conspiracy theory that I have been unable to substantiate. I mean, I don't think it's, like, on the Catholic Church's agenda to push The Sound of Music. But I think that is probably a reason. And like you say, it was touted out in your Catholic school.

[1:29:09] Tommy: All the time.

[1:29:09] Jimi: That was the one that was ruled out because it's such a safe bet.

[1:29:12] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:29:12] Jimi: You know what I mean?

[1:29:14] Tommy: There's no denigration of the church at all. Quite the opposite.

[1:29:17] Jimi: I mean, it does make a lot of sense. It poses a wild thesis that is absolutely untrue, that the Catholic Church helped defeat the Nazis.

[1:29:30] Tommy: Well, yeah, exactly.

[1:29:31] Jimi: Right? Like, it's just patently untrue. But there are, you know, when, you know, Dear Mother, I have sinned. And they, like, hold up the pieces of the engine about how they'd set it, right?

[1:29:42] Tommy: Yeah, exactly.

[1:29:44] Jimi: And so it paints them in a great light. Why not? Anyway, that's my soapbox to stand on.

[1:29:52] Tommy: Yeah, I like that.

[1:29:53] Jimi: I like that. So I think it's important for us then to talk about the legacy that it has. Because there's some mad stuff.

[1:30:00] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:30:02] Jimi: So do you know Sing Along a Sound of Music?

[1:30:05] Tommy: I don't know that in particular.

[1:30:07] Jimi: I do know, and this is the thing that I find wild, never at a school I've been at, but schools that perform The Sound of Music. It just has their, like, spring musical. We'll then do, like, bonus Sunday matinees that are Sing Along versions for a live musical.

[1:30:25] Tommy: Which, like, is nutso to me.

[1:30:29] Jimi: But they have been described to me as the highest selling show of that week.

[1:30:35] Tommy: Right, of course.

[1:30:36] Jimi: Which is nuts.

[1:30:37] Tommy: Wild.

[1:30:37] Jimi: I can't... Because the thing is, is...

[1:30:40] Tommy: Well, the musical theatre-going audience, who is part of the subsection of audience members, I'm not going to touch any feeling on this, who like to sing along.

[1:30:54] Jimi: Sure.

[1:30:55] Tommy: Okay. Because they sing along with the film and that's fine. So I'm obviously going to sing along with this live stage performance. The Sound of Music is in their top five.

[1:31:06] Jimi: Mm-hmm.

[1:31:08] Tommy: Because it's on all the time.

[1:31:09] Jimi: Right.

[1:31:09] Tommy: And they see it all the time. So, of course, that's the one they want to come and sing along to. But no, the West End has done it for them.

[1:31:17] Jimi: Oh no.

[1:31:19] Tommy: And has created Sing Along Sound of Music. And so I can't remember, it's in a theatre, it's in a West End house. On the dark day, I think. It puts on the film.

[1:31:31] Jimi: The film, okay.

[1:31:32] Tommy: Sound of Music that has been closed captioned. And you are supposed to dress up. So they've like Rocky Horrored Sound of Music. But there's no shadow cast.

[1:31:44] Jimi: Sure.

[1:31:44] Tommy: It's just the film and you're just meant to sing along. And it is so incredibly popular, I can't even describe. Like it is almost an institution.

[1:31:59] Jimi: Who would you dress up as if you went to Sing Along Sound of Music?

[1:32:04] Tommy: I would dress up. Oh, that's a great question. I would probably dress up in like, Friedrich's curtain outfit.

[1:32:15] Jimi: That's fun.

[1:32:16] Tommy: Because I think I'd look super cute in that. The problem is all the nuns look the same. Otherwise I would.

[1:32:50] Tommy: We would not applaud that. That's the legacy she deserves. The grandma from Mulan. Yes, anyway, what were we talking about? Oh, dressing up. Yeah, it's like the main thing, but like to the point where there's some stuff that's definitely, like people dress up as like nuts. Right, yeah, that's no good. But don't do that. But they do and it's almost like it's, well, it's not fine, but it's, it's so, so a part of the thing, right? Yeah, like, that's fine. It's mad, but it is, it is an institution in the UK, like, it's a thing and it will always sell. I mean, this speaks to what I said earlier about kind of the like, rosy coloured glasses looking at World War Two and Nazism and like all this stuff like, right, absolutely.

It's like, ah, we're the, you know, the silly Nazis whose car breaks down. Right. Yeah, no good. Yeah. But then also, I think a big important part of the legacy to look at is Salzburg. Yeah, they, the tourism industry. Oh, man. I mean, I think they like it for the tourism and hate it for a lot of other reasons. Right, exactly. I mean, exactly. Again, actually in this Sue Perkins documentary, really, really interesting. She speaks to a 98 year old. I don't think he's a rabbi. But he works with the Austrian Jewish community. And he actually talks about kind of the Austrian perspective on the war and their own admissibility and everything. And what he basically implies is that there was a lot more Max Detweilers than there were gay arts. I mean, and one of the things.

[1:34:42] Jimi: Well, yeah. Otherwise, they wouldn't have been able to.

[1:34:46] Tommy: Exactly. Yeah, apparently he said that like 98% of people were in favour of the Anschluss. So, you know, I mean, but a big part of the sound of music Austrian narrative is that they say it paints Austrians in a bad light because it just makes it as if they're all Nazi sympathisers. And I find that again, I find that it's like a really interesting perspective as to like, well, actually did get it, get it right. But they are definitely and rightfully so cashing in on it because it's, you know, I mean, like, is everyone wants to have their bachelorette party there? So I was trying to think of another musical that has a similar thing. And I hate when we get into this because it was like, oh, there's literally none.

And then the 30. But I can't think of any. And it's not like, you know, 90% of musicals are set in New York, but there's nowhere really you go to in New York to do the musical. I mean, like, I'm sure Gander will continue to see a slight come from away tourism boost, but.

[1:36:01] Jimi: But not to the extent of where you're going to have a bus with the right. Exactly.

[1:36:08] Tommy: It's like, it's like Lord of the Rings, Hobbiton level like that. And it's because they filmed most of the film in Salzburg.

[1:36:15] Jimi: Salzburg. Yeah. And so you can go to the places and people like to do that sort of thing.

[1:36:21] Tommy: So you need something else that was filmed on location in a pretty space that has become really popular. You know, and we do like, and these things become more and more common. I mean, have you seen all of the signs they put up outside of the house that What's-His-Face threw the pizza on top of in Breaking Bad? And they've got huge signs that say basically like, please stop throwing pizzas on top of our house. Like, we live in an era where this sort of thing happens.

[1:37:07] Jimi: Yeah. You know, I think Salzburg was on the early end of what now has become the Instagram fad, right? Here's the one tree in the middle of a lake that looks really cool on film, but now everyone's trampling through whatever to get there. Like, we see this all over Colorado with some of our really beautiful lakes that now, you know, please don't go in the lake. And then people, you know, take their whatever stupid influencer post in the middle of the lake. Right. Okay. But yeah, I just I don't think they're from a certainly musical theater representation. We don't, we don't got much. And it's like this show, goodness me, it has made a very, very lasting impact. But like, I do want to ask you the question, like, do you think it's like, do you roll your as a, you know, a non gatekeeping musical theater fan? Do you roll your eyes when you think of Sony music is the one everyone knows?

[1:38:50] Tommy: It just seems it seems so gargantuan, that it has surpassed the genre.

[1:38:59] Jimi: Yeah, I get I mean, like, but I, yeah, I know what you mean. People, big fans of the Sony music film wouldn't be like, yeah, there are there are there are die hard sound of music fans who have never listened to another musical. Who wouldn't even call who wouldn't say who wouldn't call it a musical because they don't even think about it like that. It's just a whole other entity. And in a way that I think, let's say Hamilton is approaching.

[1:39:29] Tommy: Like there are huge Hamilton fans who don't see it as a Broadway musical, who just see it as Hamilton.

[1:39:35] Jimi: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's fair. But I I'm kind of fine with it. Yeah. Like, you know, I mean, I know, like, when we did Mamma Mia, and we talked about its fame, and it's because, you know, it's another one that has a very, very large impact, you know.

[1:39:54] Tommy: And I think a lot more people would roll their eyes that Mamma Mia is the exemplar that we're using for musical theater. But I'm more than happy with Sony music.

[1:40:06] Jimi: I agree. And I think part of it is and Mamma Mia is a good foil for it. You know, Mamma Mia feels like on some level a money grab, right? There's a pre-existing catalog of ABBA songs, let's turn it into something monetizable. And sure, they tried hard to make a plot that works around these songs, and I think did a, you know, fine job of that. Sound of music started with holistic, artistic intent, it feels like, right? And I know in contemporary sensibilities, that's always going to be a bullshit statement anyway, right? People, especially in the, you know, 50s and 60s, made musicals to make money, but also made musicals to make art. And they can kind of live with each other. And there's a lot of art in this thing. There's a lot of stupid in this thing, but there's a lot of art in this thing.

[1:41:06] Tommy: I completely agree. Yeah, I think we should all be proud of Sound of Music. Can I, we didn't get to it anywhere else, but I want to read to you a stage direction that is in the actual published libretto for this, that is certainly from its time. This is when Maria arrives at the Von Trapp estate. The butler exits and says, you will read here, Maria is wearing a dress that has been designed by an enemy of the female sex and an unbecoming hat. And man, I'm glad we don't write stage directions like we used to. Right? It's so silly. Apparently, there's a lot of really meaty stage directions.

[1:41:49] Jimi: There are, I read through a bunch, and it's weird because it's from Rodgers and Hammerstein, and they did just in America get bought by Concord, but they were their own licensing company. And so the librettos you get from R&H are the librettos. And so there's some stuff in there that hasn't been touched by an editor in 40 years.

[1:42:06] Tommy: Exactly. Yeah, you can definitely tell they were written in the 50s. And printed in the 50s. And you have to hold them really gently because they're so paper thin. Anyway.

[1:42:16] Jimi: Aww. Anyway, Sound of Music Man.

[1:42:21] Tommy: The Sound of Music Man? Get out of here with that. That's some Wheel of Fortune level. The first show I talked about on my YouTube channel where I showed my face.

[1:42:33] Jimi: Oh! It's a stupid video. What did you talk about with?

[1:42:35] Tommy: Oh man, so many things. I made a weird and belabored joke about Pokemon cards. I forget which of the Von Traps. I only ever showed a photo of him as the goat from the Lonely Goat Herd.

[1:42:47] Jimi: Okay. It's one of the, they talk about like watching old things and feeling cringy about them. That's the one for me. It's one of those ones. I don't think I've seen that one.

[1:43:01] Tommy: Oh, that's fine. But I think you would enjoy watching it right now.

[1:43:07] Jimi: They are. They sure are. The songs they've sung for a thousand years.

[1:43:10] Jimi: Okay.

[1:43:12] Tommy: My heart wants to sing.

[1:43:17] Jimi: Oh, my brain went, does she not say the hills fill my, the hills they have eyes with the sound of music? No? Okay.

[1:43:23] Tommy: You have a quiz question for us.

[1:43:31] Jimi: Yeah, we're gonna move on. Okay, so as far as we know, this is the only musical based, kind of, on a roller coaster.

[1:43:38] Tommy: Not sure. If you want to get in touch with us, the show Twitter and Instagram is at Jim and Tomek, or drop us an email on our website, jimandtomek.com.

[1:43:40] Tommy: The hills are alive, Jimmy, with the sound of music.

[1:43:46] Jimi: Yes, indeed, where you will find many, many interesting things, such as our merch store. We've also got our Discord, which we love dearly like a child.

[1:44:00] Tommy: We want to hear from lesbians.

[1:44:04] Jimi: Yes, we damn right we do.

[1:44:11] Tommy: And you will also find our show notes there as well, where you'll get the invite. Don't worry, if you miss out on the invite, it is time limited. There will be more to come in future. We will always want you there. Also, while you're on our website, you can check out our Patreon if you want to financially support the show and find our Last Call, our video podcast where we talk about weird things, always weird things.

[1:44:25] Jimi: Body modification.

[1:44:30] Tommy: Yeah, Jimmy got a tattoo, but don't worry.

[1:44:33] Jimi: You like that? That was fun. Ominous. That was good. I like that.

[1:44:37] Tommy: And of course, thank you to all our current patrons. We adore you deeply.

[1:44:43] Jimi: Absolutely we do. And hey, the best thing you can do for us, because you know this is a give and take, is tell your friends. Just let them know. Just say, hey, I listen to this little show. It's called Jim and Tomek's Musical Theatre Happy Hour. They're going to be like, what? And you're going to be like, yeah, I know. And love is born.

[1:44:55] Tommy: Tell them they talk about musicals and noodles.

[1:44:58] Jimi: Yeah. Oh, my God. I love that noodle chat, by the way. That was really interesting. Can that be our new subtitle? Musical and noodles?

[1:45:05] Tommy: No, too close to a competitive podcast.

[1:45:08] Jimi: That's fair. Hey, thanks for listening. And Jimmy, cheers.

[1:45:12] Tommy: Cheers.

[1:45:25] Jimi: Cheers.

[1:45:27] Tommy: Well, interestingly, Spätzle has cheese in it.