This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Tommy: Listener, this will be the cold open, because Jimmy had to stop the recording a second ago because he had to go check his preferences, which my brain first interpreted as saying, like, well, men, right?

[0:10] Jimmy: You never know. Listen, I'm an aspiring pansexual.

[0:13] Tommy: And I don't want to put anybody in a bubble. Well, is that the way you phrase that?

[0:18] Jimmy: Um, no.

[0:21] Tommy: Will somebody get us another drink?

[0:28] Tommy: Welcome to Jim and Tomic's Musical Theatre Happy Hour. I'm Tommy.

[0:33] Jimmy: And I'm Jimmy. And this is the only musical theatre podcast with plea bills.

[0:38] Tommy: And drink spills. Here, we take apart your favorite shows, muddle them together with a shot of buffoonery, and pour you a refreshing glass of musical theatre conversation.

[0:47] Tommy: Dear listener, you've reached the point in the podcast where I usually ask my co-host what he is drinking today in an effort to force him to come up with a hackneyed piece of improv that vaguely relates to the musical that we're about to talk about.

[1:04] Tommy: I hope you're prepared.

[1:06] Jimmy: What are you drinking today?

[1:08] Jimmy: Listen, I resent hackneyed.

[1:16] Tommy: Like a Slurpee? I don't know. What do you have at carnivals? You have a Slurpee at carnivals, right?

[1:21] Jimmy: You have Slurpees at carnivals, yeah.

[1:24] Tommy: Goldfish water?

[1:25] Jimmy: What the heck is-

[1:26] Tommy: Do they still do goldfish?

[1:27] Jimmy: Oh, like an actual goldfish.

[1:29] Tommy: Like, you want a goldfish?

[1:30] Jimmy: I was confused because we also have a food that is goldfish crackers.

[1:34] Tommy: Goldfish crackers, yeah.

[1:35] Jimmy: And goldfish water sounds disgusting when related to goldfish crackers.

[1:39] Tommy: Yeah, a soggy goldfish.

[1:43] Jimmy: You don't want that.

[1:45] Tommy: Anyway, are we going to go with that?

[1:46] Jimmy: Yeah, goldfish Slurpee.

[1:49] Tommy: Goldfish water.

[1:51] Jimmy: A Slurpee flavored- no, a goldfish-

[1:55] Tommy: Hackneyed, very hackneyed.

[1:56] Jimmy: Anyway, why?

[1:58] Tommy: Well, I'll tell you.

[2:00] Tommy: We're pretty sure this is the only musical about roller coasters, I believe was our quiz question.

[2:04] Jimmy: I think so.

[2:05] Tommy: I think it is.

[2:07] Jimmy: Specifically.

[2:08] Tommy: Specifically, because there's other carnival and circus themed and carousel.

[2:13] Jimmy: But I don't think there are roller coasters and carousel.

[2:17] Tommy: I'm pretty sure there's no roller coaster.

[2:19] Jimmy: I think that's a safe- certainly not in any Broadway productions.

[2:23] Tommy: But there could be, you know, Madison, Wisconsin's carousel.

[2:28] Jimmy: They might have gone for something there.

[2:29] Tommy: That would be tons of fun.

[2:30] Jimmy: Jimmy, what show are we talking about?

[2:32] Jimmy: We are talking about Ride the Cyclone.

[3:02] Tommy: Okay.

[3:13] Jimmy: Ride the Cyclone.

[3:14] Tommy: Here we are, by the way.

[3:17] Jimmy: This has been a little- not since Comet.

[3:19] Tommy: Yeah, I know.

[3:20] Jimmy: Have we gone on this kind of like, oh, this is- okay, well shit.

[3:24] Tommy: I don't- I don't want to prematurely oversell it, but I've gotten a lot of Comet feelings about our experience with hearing about this show and then sharing it with each other and now talking about it, like-

[3:37] Jimmy: Yeah, exactly.

[3:39] Tommy: So-

[3:39] Jimmy: We will call them Comet feelings from now- I think that's quite a cute phrase.

[3:42] Tommy: I've got Comet feelings about you.

[3:44] Jimmy: Isn't that a lovely thing to say to someone?

[3:46] Tommy: There are Jim and Tomic themed Valentines.

[3:48] Jimmy: Yeah, exactly.

[3:50] Tommy: Aww!

[3:52] Jimmy: Love that.

[3:53] Tommy: But right, why are we just talking about it now, Tommy?

[3:56] Tommy: Well, it's weird.

[3:57] Tommy: The cast album of Ride the Cyclone was released, oh, maybe about three weeks ago at time of recording, which is fascinating because far as I can tell, there aren't any current productions running of it.

[4:11] Jimmy: Nope.

[4:12] Tommy: And it premiered in- I mean, it was workshopped and kind of punted around in 2014, 2015.

[4:22] Tommy: So Ride the Cyclone is a show with music, book, and lyrics by Jacob Richman and Brooke Maxwell.

[4:27] Tommy: It started at the- at a cabaret called the Atomic Vaudeville in British Columbia and then moved to Chicago in 2015.

[4:35] Jimmy: And I'm kicking myself, Jimmy.

[4:37] Tommy: I lived there, could have seen this.

[4:40] Jimmy: Right.

[4:41] Tommy: It's been really interesting.

[4:42] Tommy: I know plenty of working actors in and around the Chicago area.

[4:47] Jimmy: Yeah.

[4:48] Tommy: And just kind of looking at the scene was like, hmm, this was like three degrees away from people I knew.

[4:55] Jimmy: Right.

[4:56] Tommy: And so like, just like, you know, like ships passing in the night just missed it while it was there.

[5:01] Jimmy: Such a shame in hindsight.

[5:03] Tommy: I know.

[5:03] Jimmy: I know.

[5:04] Tommy: I want to go back and time it.

[5:06] Tommy: Well, obviously we'll talk about it later, but there's been so much changes and stuff.

[5:08] Jimmy: Yeah.

[5:09] Tommy: Yeah.

[5:09] Jimmy: But so after Chicago, it then toured around various locales.

[5:16] Tommy: It did a little stint off-Broadway.

[5:20] Tommy: It's done really, really well critically kind of wherever it's gone.

[5:22] Jimmy: Yeah.

[5:24] Tommy: And yeah, as Jimmy said that we got a cast album for it this month and the rule, the Jim and Tomic rule is we will cover your show if you have a cast album.

[5:33] Jimmy: So they did it.

[5:38] Tommy: But no, this until like the cast album showed up on my like Spotify release radar, which thank you, you know, Spotify.

[5:49] Tommy: And I shared it with Jimmy.

[5:51] Jimmy: You remember your first reaction when I said, you know, listen to this thing and you were like, what is this?

[5:57] Tommy: What?

[5:58] Jimmy: This looks exactly what I think because I think I listened to the first track and I was a bit like, yeah, because if you listen to the first track, and yeah, I was a little bit confused, but gosh, did I retract that statement?

[6:18] Jimmy: Because yeah, it's been a very fun, very short period of time.

[6:24] Tommy: Like this certainly never been to the UK.

[6:28] Jimmy: So this really has been the first time.

[6:31] Tommy: Yeah, I've been able to be exposed to it.

[6:33] Tommy: And I think there'll be a lot of people across the world having the same kind of reaction.

[6:37] Jimmy: Exactly.

[6:39] Tommy: And I think like more so than any in recent times, like listen to this cast recording first.

[6:46] Tommy: I would say to the to the peeps.

[6:49] Jimmy: Yeah, who listen to this like go and do that a just to actually support the show because it's a small right small-scale show.

[6:55] Tommy: We're not talking big budgets here and I would quite like to see this alive again.

[7:00] Jimmy: Yeah, I have no doubts.

[7:02] Tommy: It will be but but also just I think just to get the context because you won't have there's no other.

[7:09] Tommy: There's no there's very few ways into the show.

[7:11] Jimmy: The cyclone canon.

[7:12] Tommy: Exactly.

[7:13] Jimmy: Yeah, although I will say it's funny you say support the show by listening to it because doesn't Karnak say through my years of prognostication.

[7:20] Jimmy: I've realized that the only thing that makes less money than musical theater is releasing an album on a streaming service.

[7:28] Tommy: Exactly.

[7:28] Jimmy: And hey, he's right.

[7:30] Tommy: He's right.

[7:30] Jimmy: I see my dad's royalties that he gets from his songs and listen Pittens doesn't even cover it.

[7:37] Tommy: But right, we're going to do a little bit differently this time.

[7:42] Jimmy: Yeah, Kitty Winks.

[7:44] Tommy: We're going to do one of our sort of like track by track.

[7:48] Jimmy: Yeah, I haven't done in a long time.

[7:49] Tommy: I don't think it's like gossip.

[7:51] Jimmy: It goes quarter.

[7:52] Tommy: Yeah, but it's a good one to kind of walk you through but you know bird's-eye view sky-high overview of ride the cyclone takes place in kind of a limbo ish Carnival Warehouse our narrator for the evening is the amazing Karnak who is a Zoltar-esque fortune-telling automaton machine who predicts the time place and circumstances of your death.

[8:20] Tommy: But unfortunately at in his current state at a theme park.

[8:23] Jimmy: He was set to family fun mode and can only tell you to ride the cyclone and that your lucky number is seven.

[8:30] Tommy: He's hosting this night and he knows because he is who he is that he's going to die tonight.

[8:35] Jimmy: His cable is going to be chewed through by a rat.

[8:40] Tommy: And so as a last act of benevolence, he brings back a group of teenagers from the St. Cajetan's choir.

[8:50] Jimmy: Is that right?

[8:51] Tommy: Yeah from Uranium City Saskatchewan who all died on the cyclone roller coaster a year ago or so and the prize of the night the grand prize of the night is that one of them will be brought back to life.

[9:06] Jimmy: Indeed.

[9:08] Tommy: Yeah, and I think we're going to kind of say no more at this stage because yeah, Tommy and I were talking about this like it's the cast album does that good thing of giving you a lot but not giving you everything.

[9:20] Jimmy: Yeah, and we're going to try and kind of honor that.

[9:24] Tommy: We're going to try and respect that too.

[9:25] Jimmy: There might be some more slightly more mild spoilers in here.

[9:28] Tommy: We're going off a little more research, but we do want to keep some of the magic and some of the secrets secret because it's a small show that deserves to be seen.

[9:38] Jimmy: Exactly.

[9:39] Tommy: And like but also what I would say is if it does get spelled for you in any way, it won't stop you from wanting to see it.

[9:46] Jimmy: Exactly.

[9:47] Tommy: Having known and have read the script.

[9:49] Jimmy: I'm like, I'm ready.

[9:51] Tommy: You know what I mean?

[9:53] Jimmy: But right, I'm ready.

[9:55] Tommy: Let's hop in.

[9:56] Jimmy: Wee!

[9:57] Tommy: You know roller coaster theme though.

[9:59] Jimmy: Oh, I like that one.

[10:00] Tommy: I like that one.

[10:30] Jimmy: Greetings children.

[10:51] Karnak: It's time to play.

[10:53] Karnak: Earth is sky and sky is ground. Did we finally leave our town?

[10:58] Tommy: So we're going to start with kind of talking about like the opening section of the show.

[11:04] Tommy: And which is kind of like a classic world building moment where we're kind of some mixture of monologue from Karnak and you hear from some of the kids and you also hear about their life in small-time uranium.

[11:20] Jimmy: It's a fun.

[11:25] Tommy: I mean you the whole thing starts with you know after perhaps a little prologue from Jane Doe just direct address and narration from Karnak which is very appropriate and like suiting for the kind of thing it is and I don't know what it is Jimmy.

[11:40] Tommy: I think I tweeted this the other day but gone are my aspirations of wanting to be man in chair.

[11:45] Jimmy: Right.

[11:46] Tommy: My new dream role is Karnak the amazing Karnak from ride the cyclone 100% I fully see.

[11:53] Jimmy: I fully see you as that and listen to know why I really support that because it takes you at the running.

[12:00] Tommy: We'll do it.

[12:01] Jimmy: Well, we'll do them in rest and we'll go back and forth and like I want to be Karnak.

[12:04] Tommy: I want to build the Karnak thing.

[12:07] Jimmy: I want to do this set design like holy crap like I think this show hits you right off the back with this one's going to be weird.

[12:15] Tommy: Right exactly and like because so if you look up any of the promo footage or published images like you'll see that Karnak looks like the kind of Zoltar from big.

[12:28] Jimmy: Yeah, you know thing.

[12:29] Tommy: He is very much.

[12:30] Jimmy: He looks like an animatronic, but there was a guy in there.

[12:32] Tommy: Yeah, he's a puppety sort of thing and it's done really really well.

[12:36] Jimmy: Yeah, but right so basically yeah Karnak sets up the story.

[12:42] Tommy: He tells us what's happened.

[12:43] Jimmy: He tells us that there's been this crash and that he has this power and you know, he's brought these kids into limbo to work out who's going to be reborn basically and we meet all of the kids for the first time.

[13:01] Tommy: Yeah, so there are six of them.

[13:04] Jimmy: There are five of them.

[13:06] Tommy: There are five of them and then Jane and Jane.

[13:09] Jimmy: Yes, so Jane is interesting because she is Jane Doe.

[13:17] Tommy: Yes, and she has been decapitated in the crash and they are unable to identify remains because nobody came to claim the body.

[13:30] Jimmy: So she is very much a Jane Doe and so the way that the creators have interpreted this is that she is this kind of broken doll figure basically who doesn't know who she is and doesn't know where she came from and it's just this sort of general creepy presence basically and sort of mildly torments the other kids who are extremely creeped out by her.

[13:56] Tommy: I believe Karnak introduces her by saying tonight's mystery contestant.

[14:01] Jimmy: Yes, exactly.

[14:03] Tommy: Yeah, because she's not there for the whole start.

[14:05] Jimmy: Yeah, she doesn't sing with the choir during the opening of Uranium.

[14:09] Tommy: Yeah, so small fact about Uranium. Real place.

[14:13] Jimmy: Real place.

[14:13] Tommy: Population of 73.

[14:15] Jimmy: Yeah, sounds like a really interesting time.

[14:17] Tommy: Yeah, and who knew that, you know, Canada was a leading source of... Makes a lot of sense.

[14:25] Jimi: Take a sidebar, do they, where I live in Colorado, like, right, we have a city called Boulder, but there's a city called Marble, there's a city called Golden, like, there are all sorts of towns in Colorado named after the thing that they found there.

[14:44] Tommy: Right. We don't have that.

[14:45] Jimi: You don't have that? No. We have, like, names, there was a bridge there once, and so it's the Gaelic word for bridge, you know what I mean, like, that's what we've got.

[14:55] Tommy: Yeah. Wichesta Shire Shire, sure.

[14:59] Jimi: No, that's England. Oh, pardon me. For goodness sake. No, it's fine. England's fine. But so they do in this beginning set up Uranium as being a boring has-been, you know, the kids sing about, will we ever leave this town? Yes. And that it is, you know, it is a friendly place, but not a place that's very exciting.

[15:26] Tommy: Yeah, and very much this classic small town.

[15:31] Jimi: Vibes. Yeah. And all of the stereotypes that go with that. Yes, basically. So yeah, that's pretty much the setup. And then we start to basically get introduced to the kids one by one, in what I will say, Tommy, in Cats style.

[15:52] Tommy: Yeah, I mean, the creators have said they had not seen Cats before writing this thing.

[15:59] Jimi: Right. The thing is, it's in Cats style, it's also Assassin.

[16:04] Tommy: Oh, yeah. I mean, this is a, it's a classic and actually very effective way of writing a show. I think there is something about this. And it was interesting, there was a little bit of hubbub on the Discord. Spelling bee, sorry.

[16:18] Jimi: Yeah, no, there's a little hubbub on the Discord about, will Tommy like this one? Which I think is fascinating. Also, you know, please never care about my opinion, but I'm flattered.

[16:25] Tommy: Yeah. But I do think there is something about this show that, like this show, yeah, it leverages a lot of tropes in its plot writing, and even just in how a lot of the music is structured. Like it's not terribly, it's not terribly revolutionary in a lot of its music writing. I really like its music. And I think it does run the gamut through a lot of styles, which is very fun. Massively.

[16:52] Jimi: But, you know, it's got like AABA, Gilbert and Sullivan style structure for a lot of this stuff with a very contemporary twist on it. But it's not, you know, it's no Dave Malloy up in here, right? We're not exploring the idea of what is music.

[17:06] Tommy: Yeah, let's play with sound as a concept.

[17:09] Jimi: Yeah. Which I do, I do think, you know, because it is so, on the other side of the coin, very weird in a lot of its plot concept and explores a lot of bizarre things there. It's nice to be rooted in something that's like, oh, this is a nice little musical theater bop. I got, I got what's going on here. And I think like, in many ways to give it its credit, and yes, I will disparage my cats. But what it has over cats is that it has an overarching concept.

[17:36] Tommy: Yes.

[17:38] Jimi: You know what I mean? Like cats isn't about death.

[17:42] Tommy: Right. And you like, I would say not to harp too much on cats, but like, though the plot is which cat gets pulled to the heavyside layer at the end.

[17:53] Jimi: Yeah. It's not written in a way where you're like, so curious and nervous and stressed and filled with suspense about who they're going to pick, right?

[18:00] Tommy: No.

[18:01] Jimi: This show is structured that way. There are six contestants. We will choose one. Here we go. Yeah, yeah.

[18:09] Tommy: Let the games begin.

[18:11] Jimi: Absolutely. So I think like the concept tying it all together is what makes it so brilliant.

[18:18] Tommy: Yeah. And I think it probably worth actually saying at this stage, the show was built out of cabaret numbers.

[18:26] Jimi: Yes. You know, I mean, like they had this really successful cabaret atomic vaudeville. And I think with trials like some of these numbers, they are not necessarily as we see them now. But some of them definitely were in a really similar style.

[18:44] Tommy: Yeah. And they brought in a director called Rachel Rockwell, who basically brought it all together and made it more of a cohesive piece. And it's been heavily workshopped in every production, you know, there's stuff that's been cut and reshaped and reformed. And the kind of script that we have now, the licensed version is probably the definitive version that will stay from now on. But it's been heavily, heavily revised. And I think that's a really good thing because you can tell it's been polished. It's such a cool, solid like and Spelling Bee went through a similar inception. And you can tell and there aren't, you know, off the top of my head, these are the two I can think of that are born of devised pieces that have kind of broken through to, you know, and even right, the Cyclone certainly hasn't had the success that Spelling Bee has. And I really like these kind of pieces. It's kind of a new way in and kind of breaks the mold of traditional musical theater while still building on it, certainly. Totally.

[19:47] Jimi: But like letting, you know, there's a funness to not holding your art so precious that is inherent in this that doesn't happen with like when you have a book writer and a music writer and a lyricist and you know, it's harder to kill your darlings then. Whereas if it's an improv game, yeah, screw it. That number didn't work. Let's write everyone.

[20:11] Tommy: For sure. And it seems like they're really they have their finger on the pulse with what seems to work, what doesn't work. And they listen a lot to their audience. The again, that director, Rachel Rockwell, she was really, really keen for them to kind of get it up and in a house as soon as possible, because she was like, we're not going to know what's good until we are in a house. And that is that's just smart directing. And particularly when you're dealing with comedy.

[20:40] Jimi: Yeah. And I do worth it to say, you know, with these descriptions and with summaries, this is a comedy. It is a dark comedy, but it is comedy.

[20:45] Tommy: Yeah. I love it. So I wanted to call it like tragicomedy. I think that is a thing.

[20:51] Jimi: Sure. I do think and they do such a good job with this. It does between the setting and like meeting Jane Doe so early and then especially Carnac, who I think it's in the front material of the licensed script. But I had to look up this word. There's never any archness in his voice, which, you know, I love. He's never a villain. Nor is he like super benevolent, right? Nor is he like a trickster god. He's just kind of coolly and calmly there running through what, you know, what kind of feels like a predetermined divine existence.

[21:36] Tommy: Um, like this, this is how it will be. This is how the gears of time turn. And this is my part in it. And away we go.

[21:41] Jimi: Absolutely. And I think in quite a similar way to something like Spelling Bee where there isn't, there's no protagonist, there's no antagonist, even though in Spelling Bee there is a winner of the bee. But Barfey isn't the protagonist of that piece by any stretch. Rona isn't the protagonist. And I think it's a similar way here. It's very much a full on ensemble cast. And that, again, gives it its credit. I think that's a really important way of storytelling because you're not hinging your show on the revelations of any one person. Everyone's in it for the ride, so to speak. I think that was really smart.

[22:25] Tommy: Yeah. So should we get talking about the kids? Let's meet Ocean.

[22:55] Jimi: So we do, in a very similar way to Cats in Spelling Bee, we get introduced to the kids in turn. And they each have their moment. And they're all kind of I want songs in a way.

[23:31] Tommy: Yeah, sure. And again, that's a really smart device because within that, you get a lot of exposition out the way and you're able to see these characters. It's a fun, tricky plot device. And I mean tricky in like it tricks you that we're going to meet all these kids and on paper, they're just going to tell you about themselves. But very clearly, the order in which we meet these kids and kind of the revelations they have about themselves builds the climactic structure of the piece in a way where you're not expecting it. Like your brain kind of thinks, you know, oh, we're going to meet all these kids and then the complication will ensue. But the complication is kind of baked into us meeting the kids.

[24:16] Jimi: Exactly. And I think that's where it differs for something like Assassins, where you meet all of your assassins, you get to know them, then you have another national anthem and everything switches around. There is no moment like that. There is no switcheroo, aha, gotcha moment. The gotcha is happening all the time. And that's actually really crucial, I think, to the overall piece. And we'll probably talk about that at the end when we sum up. But it's smart. So we get through, they introduce us to Uranium, we meet Jane Doe, the mystery contestant, and we kind of get some exposition about that. But then it's Ocean's time. Ocean, oh God, I teach kids like this, and this show does an amazing job of portraying Ocean as as much of a pain in the ass as this kind of kid is.

[25:04] Tommy: I mean, I find it so tricky, because I know, it's in the same way that when I talk about Rachel Berry, like, I know I've been Ocean. I know I have.

[25:14] Jimi: Do you have this term? I learned this term from people I know who went through medical school. Have you heard of a student referred to as a gunner?

[25:24] Tommy: A gunner, as in someone who keeps gunning for things?

[25:26] Jimi: Like, they're always gunning for, and like, they're gonna, like, a gunner is the kind of student who would check out all versions of the book you're supposed to use to study from the library, so that you can't get your copy, and that they do better on the test. Like, that's the kind of thing that that kind of person does.

[25:49] Tommy: I love that.

[25:50] Jimi: Ocean is a gunner. Ocean is, like, she's got some great lines about, you know, how worldly wise she is, and what is it? I mean, sure, grades, humanitarian efforts, extracurricular activities, prestigious university, spiritual mastery of both Judaism and Catholicism, nailed my confirmation in Bar Mitzvah at the same week, and I'm not even bragging about that, because it's against my Buddhist beliefs.

[26:15] Tommy: Yeah. And she comes from, like, she was raised Marxist, which I think is brilliant.

[26:24] Jimi: It's funny, because it's not, like, contemporary new age parenting, in that kind of hippie style that we see quite a lot. It is that, but it's if that person was, as we say, a gunner, an overachiever. And it's really smart, because I think that's the thing, is, like, on paper, if you look to these characters, you would feel like, oh, it just falls into, like, the Breakfast Club spread that we usually get, you know what I mean?

[26:50] Tommy: Well, any sort of high school.

[26:51] Jimi: And they're setting you up for that still, even with Ocean. And her whole point is, like, I must go back because I'm the best, obviously.

[26:59] Tommy: Yes, exactly. But I would say that there's so much more to her character than just the preppy, overachieving Rachel. Like, there is, like, that, the new age element, and the fact that she's really into improv, like, it's just, it's really smart.

[27:19] Jimi: But it lifts out of that, you know, Breakfast Club stereotype. And they do that with all of the characters, you know what I mean?

[27:25] Tommy: And the joke is that you'll get in the libretto that you miss on the album, she's really into improv, but actually she has pre-rehearsed scenes with everybody, because she doesn't want to actually do improv.

[27:36] Jimi: It's great. So her song, What the World Needs...

[27:42] Tommy: Is People Like Me.

[27:43] Jimi: Is People Like Me. So it's, like, a very pop princess style in terms of its genre. And, like, one thing as we go through, you'll find that every single song has a very defined genre. And that's this one. And it really, it fits the character very, very well. And it's a lot of fun. It's a really good opener, I think, for the whole album.

[28:10] Tommy: Yeah.

[28:10] Jimi: Because it's not alienating.

[28:13] Tommy: No, but it's...

[28:14] Jimi: You can easily listen to this song, you get it, and it's funny.

[28:17] Tommy: But it does do the thing that, like, the Avenue Q creators always pat themselves on the back for, about having K-Monster drop the F-bomb in the first song.

[28:23] Jimi: Yes.

[28:26] Tommy: To, like, let you know that the puppets are going to swear.

[28:29] Jimi: You know, Ocean spends the whole time also dissing her fellow contestants, her fellow classmates. And, like, it's mean. We're not talking, you know, gentle ribbing here.

[28:51] Jimi: You know, how long's he gonna last if they feed him through a tube?

[28:54] Tommy: Right, exactly. Exactly, to the boy with a degenerative disease.

[28:58] Jimi: Yeah, and so...

[29:01] Tommy: Yeah, it's baiting, to say the least.

[29:05] Jimi: And then what's great is the rug gets pulled from under her.

[29:08] Tommy: Yeah, immediately Karnak shows up and is like, well, just so you know, it's going to be a vote, a unanimous vote of everyone who is here right now.

[29:18] Jimi: Exactly. And this kind of rule-breaking thing is very, very important, I think. And again, we'll discuss it in the sum up. But this happens a lot throughout the whole piece.

[29:32] Tommy: And obviously Ocean is affronted and starts telling everyone that she loves them.

[29:35] Jimi: Right.

[29:36] Tommy: And that she didn't really mean it.

[29:37] Jimi: Yep.

[29:39] Tommy: But the damage has been done, Ocean.

[29:41] Jimi: Yep.

[29:42] Tommy: The damage has been done.

[29:44] Jimi: Right, let's talk Noel.

[29:46] Tommy: Away we go. Oh, Noel.

[30:16] Jimi: A world of boozy, floozy, flashing light.

[30:18] Tommy: I want to be that fucked up girl.

[30:20] Jimi: I want to be that fucked up girl.

[30:38] Tommy: If I could have just one dream.

[30:40] Jimi: If I could have just one dream.

[30:41] Tommy: I'd be that fucked up girl.

[30:44] Jimi: So Tommy has already said to me that he is Noel, and I agree.

[30:47] Tommy: I feel, yep.

[30:48] Jimi: Small town gay kid.

[30:50] Tommy: Yep, absolutely.

[30:51] Jimi: So Noel is the gay kid in Uranium City, Saskatchewan.

[30:56] Tommy: Yep.

[30:57] Jimi: And he says, doesn't he just, I think he says being a gay kid is like bringing a laptop back to the Stone Age.

[31:04] Tommy: It's the best quote I've heard in like a long time.

[31:09] Jimi: It is funny.

[31:10] Tommy: He says, let's get it right. Being the only gay man in a small rural high school is kind of like having a laptop in the Stone Age. I mean, sure, you can have one, but there's nowhere to plug it in.

[31:22] Jimi: That is fucking gay.

[31:25] Tommy: And so, like, they've set you up. We've just met Ocean. What the world needs is people like me. We know all these kids are going to talk about, like, here's the reason I need to go back to, you know, become alive. And now Noel's going to tell you why he should go back.

[31:42] Jimi: But, oops, he doesn't.

[31:45] Tommy: Not at all.

[31:47] Jimi: Instead, Noel's song is called That Fucked Up Girl.

[31:51] Tommy: And he sings about his fantasy of being Monique Jabot, a post-war France hooker.

[32:03] Jimi: Absolutely.

[32:04] Tommy: And he just talks about how he wants to die in the most dark and dramatic fashion.

[32:11] Jimi: And I love it.

[32:13] Tommy: And literally, literally can relate, my friend.

[32:17] Jimi: Yeah.

[32:18] Tommy: This is the product of what happens to you when you see Cabaret when you're 12 years old and you don't get it. But you know that that's the life that you want. Like, I remember being obsessed with Greta Garbo when I was wee because I saw Camille. And, like, I was far too wee. But I just remember, like, seeing, you know those, like, old Hollywood techniques where they would just light the eyes?

[32:40] Jimi: Yep.

[32:41] Tommy: I remember seeing that and, like, almost crying because it was just so perfect. You know what I mean? And she was so perfect and so dark and demure. And I was like, this is exquisite.

[32:52] Jimi: Yeah.

[32:53] Tommy: And what this creates is a Noel.

[32:56] Jimi: Yeah.

[32:57] Tommy: I mean, it's when the impulse that has made, you know, the goth kid finds a, you know, tiny homosexual boy. And those two things collide and create a, like, yes, I want to be Sally Bowles.

[33:12] Jimi: Right.

[33:13] Tommy: Right. Exactly. And because the same thing of like, like, I was one of the only gay people in my school. I didn't have, you know, peers that I could really.

[33:24] Jimi: I only had fiction.

[33:26] Tommy: Right.

[33:27] Jimi: To deal with. And a lot of it wasn't gay fiction.

[33:30] Tommy: Right.

[33:31] Jimi: I mean, there were no gay role models in my life.

[33:33] Tommy: Yeah.

[33:34] Jimi: So all I had was old Hollywood because it's the gayest thing out there.

[33:38] Tommy: Right.

[33:39] Jimi: And so I think, again, like, this isn't the stereotypical small town gay kid, you know, I mean, it's not like, oh, I've been bullied. He could have totally gone into like, I haven't had a chance to live my life out of uranium Saskatchewan, you know, being proud of my true self.

[33:58] Tommy: Right.

[33:59] Jimi: And they're.

[34:00] Tommy: Exactly.

[34:01] Jimi: It's the cleverness of the show. They're setting you up to kind of expect something like that.

[34:04] Tommy: Yeah.

[34:05] Jimi: But then they show they throw this song at you.

[34:08] Tommy: Exactly.

[34:09] Jimi: And what a great song it is.

[34:10] Tommy: So it's sort of in your Kurt Weilian style.

[34:15] Jimi: Very.

[34:17] Tommy: Obviously, it's French, but it has a very 1930s dirge appeal to it with elements of tango in there as well.

[34:28] Jimi: And it is extremely enjoyable. I don't want to read too much of the script out loud because I'm sure it's funnier in person.

[34:38] Tommy: But he's like introducing this song. He says, I've seen the movie Blue Angel about a billion and one times. If there's something better on earth, better on this earth than Marlene Dietrich playing Lola Lola, the heartless booze hound harlot. I don't even want to hear about it. I tried to go as her every year for Halloween. I always chickened out and I'd go as something like C-3PO.

[34:57] Jimi: But in my heart, I was Lola Lola dressed up as C-3PO.

[35:00] Tommy: Exactly.

[35:01] Jimi: And like, I relate.

[35:04] Tommy: We talked about it in the last episode.

[35:07] Jimi: Yeah.

[35:08] Tommy: Marnie Nixon.

[35:09] Jimi: Yeah.

[35:10] Tommy: Dressed as a nun.

[35:11] Jimi: Yep.

[35:12] Tommy: Dressed as Maria.

[35:13] Jimi: Yeah.

[35:14] Tommy: It's just, it's really, really smart.

[35:15] Jimi: Yeah.

[35:16] Tommy: And the song also is just so funny. This show, I'm sure I'm going to say it a thousand times, you know, sets them up and knocks them down just when you're least expecting it.

[35:30] Jimi: You know, this show is predicated on reversal of expectation.

[35:35] Tommy: Yeah, absolutely.

[35:38] Jimi: And also one of the things that I think it likes, that I like about it is it introduces this really interesting friendship dynamic between Noel and another character called Misha.

[35:51] Tommy: And it's a really, really contemporary relationship between a straight man and a gay man.

[35:59] Jimi: Yep.

[36:00] Tommy: And, you know, I just feel like we spoke about Dear Evan Hansen really recently. And we didn't really lean into the gay stuff that much in that and how poor it is. But this is a really good example of it.

[36:16] Jimi: Yeah.

[36:17] Tommy: Writers. Just saying.

[36:21] Jimi: And when we meet Misha, we'll probably talk more about it. But yeah, this sets up that really interesting friendship that bleeds through.

[36:31] Tommy: Yeah.

[36:32] Jimi: Through the whole show. But yeah, it's worth I mean, this this one you can kind of there's clips bits and pieces on YouTube.

[36:41] Tommy: Yeah.

[36:42] Jimi: And it's worth it's worth watching because actually, so the actor who plays Noel has pretty much been in it the whole way through. A guy called Colby Wardell.

[36:56] Tommy: And he's one I think the only one who's been in it since the sort of inception in Canada all the way through to the recording that we see now.

[37:04] Jimi: And yeah, that's it. It's very it's cool because you can see.

[37:12] Tommy: You can really see how much this part is him.

[37:16] Jimi: Right.

[37:17] Tommy: I mean, it's one of those really strong.

[37:19] Jimi: Yeah.

[37:20] Tommy: Lovely roles. Which I think does is what helps lend it or I would imagine is what helps lend it.

[37:25] Jimi: It's very particular nuance.

[37:27] Tommy: Yeah. I always find when you have those like actor character roles, you know, spelling bees a lot the same way where it's so built from the person doing it that that gives you, you know, there's a whole backstory to know that you may never even get on stage, but absolutely informs every choice and every, you know, joke and every little movement.

[37:49] Jimi: Yeah, it's such a fully, fully formed character. And again, the director was saying that, obviously, because she approached it after it left Canada. And that's when she came on board. He had already been doing this show for a couple of years.

[38:03] Tommy: So she was very much like, well, I'm not going to tell you what to do because you already know this inside and out.

[38:12] Jimi: And she worked quite heavily alongside him just to hone it again and polish it and make it fit into this.

[38:16] Tommy: Sure.

[38:17] Jimi: This piece. And it is so good. I just think like, in terms of contemporary gay characters in musical theatre, there ain't nothing quite like no.

[38:25] Tommy: No, it's good. And it's, it's, it's really fun because it is gay played for a joke, but not in a way that I find offensive.

[38:37] Jimi: No, but it's also, it's not, it's not the fact that he's gay that's played for a joke. Like, that is so not on the radar.

[38:46] Tommy: It's the fact that he is so into, he's a young boy who's extremely deeply immersed in, you know, old French opium dens. You know what I mean? Like, that's where the comedy comes from.

[39:00] Jimi: Yeah. I guess, I guess what I'm trying to get at is there's a, there's a place where a very similar but less nuanced set of jokes is very offensive and very old school.

[39:12] Tommy: Right.

[39:13] Jimi: And this does a fantastic job of not being that.

[39:15] Tommy: Do you know what it reminds me of? And I don't know why I've not made this connection until now. It reminds me so much of Molina in Kiss of the Spider Women.

[39:22] Tommy: Sure. Yeah.

[39:23] Jimi: Right. But the child version of, you know, like the child Molina when he was younger. In a way that, you know, Noel probably has also watched Kiss of the Spider Woman.

[39:31] Tommy: Right. Yeah, exactly. I think like that, it's that kind of really smart and realistic gay character. You know what I mean? There's, there's, this person would exist and it isn't.

[39:44] Tommy: Yeah.

[39:45] Jimi: Out of the realms of possibility. We've both just said that we are him.

[39:48] Tommy: So, yeah, I think, I like, excuse me, I like that he is now in the musical theatre canon.

[39:57] Jimi: Yes.

[39:58] Tommy: And it is a great number. This is perhaps the time to ask, included on the cast album is a censored version of That Fucked Up Girl called That Messed Up Girl. I wondered what your thoughts were behind this and also just curious, you know, this whole cast albums existence is also a bit of a mystery, right?

[40:17] Jimi: Right.

[40:18] Tommy: Why now? Why this? Also, why include that it's That Messed Up Girl is how they correct it. And I have to re-listen again, but I think they didn't re-record the chorus parts.

[40:29] Jimi: They didn't. They say they very much say...

[40:32] Tommy: Which is also weird.

[40:33] Jimi: Yeah. I love that though. I think that's brilliant.

[40:36] Tommy: So, I wonder though, because it is really the only explicit song in the whole piece, I think. Let me just check.

[40:46] Jimi: Yeah, I think that's true.

[40:47] Tommy: It's the only one that has an explicit rating. So, because it's called on the track, on the recording, it's called Noel's Lament.

[40:54] Jimi: Right. They don't title it. Because I also think iTunes and other places have some rules about profanity in the title.

[41:02] Tommy: Yes. So, I can see them, obviously, they're now going to be wanting this existing in as many high schools as possible.

[41:11] Jimi: Right, exactly. And so perhaps that's part of it.

[41:13] Tommy: So, it's kind of like, listen, don't worry, we've got that covered. You're already going to be asking, I can't have this number.

[41:19] Jimi: Yeah.

[41:20] Tommy: It's all good. So, I think that's actually a really smart move, to be honest.

[41:24] Jimi: I think it's very clever. I'm curious, because it's not... I know high schools have done this already, right? Like, you can license this right now.

[41:30] Tommy: Yeah.

[41:31] Jimi: Which is fascinating. And does... it absolutely also seems to have made the rounds as a socially distanced or digital musical.

[41:39] Tommy: Yeah, exactly.

[41:40] Jimi: And I think it's very well suited for that kind of adaptation, because they are a bunch of solo songs. It is kind of weird and limbo-esque. Exists in another plane, so why not?

[41:51] Tommy: But I was expecting, because I'd got the perusal, and I was expecting there to be some like, and here's the censored version you can perform in the script.

[42:00] Jimi: And there isn't. And who knows? Maybe a different version comes when you license it.

[42:05] Tommy: But I was just curious that you would think, knowing that they recorded a censored version, they would go through the care of being specific, like Sweeney Todd does, like a bunch of these school editions do, to be like, and here's the high school version, if that's what you need.

[42:21] Jimi: But, you know, it's not in the book, so who knows?

[42:25] Tommy: Exactly. Well, Ocean gets on it, and for swearing.

[42:28] Jimi: Yes, right away.

[43:46] Jimi: Listen, I don't know whether it's because over the pandemic, I've been speaking to a Ukrainian man. I've fallen in love with this actor. Like, I'm having, over the past, how long have we been listening to this? A week. Over the past week, I've been having a love affair with Misha, the Ukrainian adopted rapper.

[44:43] Jimi: Misha Baczynski, who, it's like, so you get out of Noel's Lament and you're like, man, that was weird. Here, in comes Misha Baczynski. Right. But it's just like this, I think to me, and again, like this, the way that this show has been written in terms of the book is really smart, because the way that they pitch the characters and the way that they line up, by this point, you're ready for anything. You know what I mean? And this is when they start to get, I would say, experimental. You know what I mean? So Noel was obviously shocking, right? But still fits in the world of musical theatre. Exactly. Like, the numbers is very much a Candor and Ebb. You know what I mean? It's something we're very familiar with.

They make a whole, like, I stabbed him ten times in the back with a knife joke. Right, exactly. And the, you know, men in drag, we're very used to that. So we've gone through Ocean being very poppy, fun, generic. Okay, hey, this is silly musical theatre. And now it's like, okay, now we're going to really play about here.

[45:55] Tommy: And Misha comes out with, what would you describe this as? Euro trash rap?

[46:00] Jimi: It's very like, yeah, Euro, kind of, light garage hip hop. Yeah. It's the thing. It's the, you know, there's some really, really good examples of, like, backyard Russian hip hop on YouTube. And I'll probably link some of the shows because there was a couple that went viral. And they're amazing. Like, they're really good. Like, the guys in them, you're just like, I love you so much because you're really trying. And it's got, it's definitely got that vibe of, like, copying American hip hop.

[46:36] Jimi: And yeah, so that's how his number starts. Right. And he's, he's pitched as, he's older than everyone else, but they don't tell you that because his adoptive parents from Chernobyl, or his parents, his birth parents who put him up for adoption, incorrectly listed his age, but apparently he still just continued pretending or believing or existing as a teenager.

[47:03] Tommy: Exactly. So, yeah, so they thought they were adopting a baby, but what they got was a teenager with an alcohol problem, basically. So he gets kept in the basement. I find this so tragic. It gets kept in the basement, and they kind of avoid him. And here he has now ended up in this choir. And so, yeah, again, from using the Breakfast Club stereotypes here, this is your burnout, but he isn't the, oh, I've got daddy issues and I'm really struggling and I'm just moody. Like, he's the loveliest burnout that's ever existed. Like, it's such a well-formed character, again.

[47:47] Jimi: And they describe him as channeling his, you know, masculine rage into this hip hop song that he sings called This Song Is Awesome.

[47:59] Tommy: Yes. Which is as, like, it's such a good song because it is exactly what I was about to say, because it is exactly what it is. Like, it is the most surface level satire parody, but not really of aggrandizing wealth rap.

[48:19] Jimi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know what it reminds me of? It reminds me of, remember, um, I guess, like, 10 years ago when Rebecca Black came out with Friday?

[48:28] Tommy: Yeah, yes.

[48:29] Jimi: Right. And then we had that slew of all, you know, like the one, like, Chinese food.

[48:33] Tommy: Yep.

[48:34] Jimi: And my blue jeans and butterflies.

[48:37] Tommy: Yep.

[48:37] Jimi: Yes, I watched them all. Okay. Shoot me in the face. But, um, like that slew of, like, pre-packaged, pre-written songs that mean nothing.

[48:47] Tommy: Yep.

[48:48] Jimi: And will make you go viral, basically.

[48:50] Tommy: Yep.

[48:50] Jimi: It's got that vibe to it. But it's so sincere. And I think that's what's delightful. Like, it isn't, it doesn't feel like, and again, like this full performance is on YouTube, so you can go watch it. And like, you're totally along for the ride. It's not like, again, no one's making fun of anyone here.

[49:10] Tommy: No, it is. It's just a really sincere, well-formed character performing a number.

[49:16] Jimi: Yep.

[49:18] Jimi: And that's what's so good about it. But my favorite part about it is just when you think, um, it's finished, uh, we then kind of get transported. Um, and he tells us about, um, this girl that he's fallen in love with, who he met in his YouTube comments, Tommy.

[49:44] Tommy: I know. Well, and as, as Karnak describes, uh, and, uh, those of you listening at home, the second movement of this song won't make a lick of sense until you see it in person. And that, my friends, is a masterclass on how to upsell.

[49:58] Jimi: So good. Um, but we're going to try and make it make some sense for you, because it's not really spoilery. You could probably put it together. So he, he sings of his, his like, internet girlfriend, Talia, and we take this like dubstep drop genre change into like deep Ukrainian folk music.

[50:18] Tommy: Yeah. And it is I like, it's already my most listened to song of the year. Like I'm not even, I'm not even kidding. Like, oh, that's awesome. Stop listening to it. And I can't stop singing. It is delightful to sing. So it's a gorgeous song to Jacob Richman and Brooke, because like it it's just really delightful. And it's, it's such a lovely love song. Yeah. Right. Without being, you know, I guess it is cheese, but it's, it's smart.

[50:55] Jimi: It's smart. And the, the, you know, they're obviously doing the juxtaposition of the backyard rap with this folk music. And like, this isn't the kind of show where then, you know, Karnak walks out and says, and clearly you can see, well, it could be that kind of show isn't clearly you see the juxtaposition and the connection between how teenagers express themselves across differences, right? Like you probably could do that and he doesn't. And it's also the sort of show where they don't need you to sit with that for too long, but it's doing that comparison there.

[51:31] Tommy: Yeah. And in terms of the staging as well, this is probably quite a good time to talk about that. Certainly in obviously this original incarnation, and I imagine if it ever goes anywhere, Broadway oriented, this will be a key part of it because they make a big, big deal of it in the script. They use a lot of really, really smart projection mapping.

[51:45] Jimi: Yeah. And at the end of this, they do that thing where they project it onto like white clothes. And so they use like the veil of Talia and his shirts and the other characters supporting characters on their shirts as well. And they project, you know, proper special projection mapping onto them. Really, really smart technical stuff that you wouldn't expect from a small scale regional show, which is really brilliant. And obviously, you don't get any sense of that in the cast recording, but I think it's important to know that it's there.

[52:28] Tommy: And it's very like to the both the way that the libretto refers to it and just looking at, you know, pictures of it, it is pretty like an integral part of the set design, which you don't see in, as you said, like this kind of small scale sort of thing.

[52:50] Jimi: It does mark like a pretty significant shift in what the face of musical theater is going to become because this thing is setting itself up to be a very regional and high school produced show. And we've reached the point where, yeah, you know, like I work in a high school, we could do projection mapping tomorrow. And like a lot of regional theaters just could, they just don't because it's not written into shows. Or if they do, it seems like, you know, it's a thing we're doing Sunday in the park, but it's all project, right? Like, yeah, exactly. And then here it is like, no, no, this has projections and they're in this projection mapping. It's not like the, you know, the intro of Evita or right. And like, you know, Glass Menagerie has projections written into the script, but from a very different era.

[53:35] Tommy: Exactly, exactly. This is really intelligent, the way it uses it. And I think you actually really hit on a good point there, Tommy is like, um, we we've spoken about for a while over the pandemic that, you know, what will theater look like post-pandemic and, um, are we going to be taking your eyes off of Broadway? And this, I think, is a really good example of, um, something that will work not on Broadway. Like, I don't think I would want to see this in a Broadway house.

[54:01] Jimi: No, it would need to be like a super, super, or like Circle in the Square or something tiny. Um, yeah. And even then, yeah, it's just, it just doesn't feel right. It's what we've talked about before with Lightning Thief. Um, be more chill, even, you know, I mean, like these, these shows that work really, really well on a small scale, Heather's like work really well, small scale. The second you scale it loses something. And by George, I did not want this show to lose anything.

[54:24] Tommy: And I do think that's, what's fascinating about this one in particular is because on a small scale in a, you know, kind of regional or community, and I don't mean to be, you know, diminutive when I say regional, like this played at some great, I believe this played at the Goodman in Chicago, like this played at some really important theaters, but they have a different flavor than, you know, a big Broadway theater does. Um, but it's still a show with like, I don't know how to phrase it other than like special effects. Like it has a production design and a production quality that you kind of expect from a big Broadway show that is novel or surprising or, you know, the, the, it's not just the actors on stage.

Like there's the set is a storytelling device in this thing, but it does it on a shoestring and it's written to do it, you know, on a budget. Um, and that's really cool. And I hope we see more things like that. We're like, yeah, you can have a really moving tech theater informed experience in this storefront theater. And we don't need to drop a chandelier to do it.

[55:32] Jimi: A hundred percent. Like, like this, this kind of show gives me a lot of hope because like, this is the kind of thing that if it rolled into my city, I'd be so excited and intrigued about seeing. Um, but if I went to Broadway, I probably, you know what I mean? Like I, I wouldn't really care as much like, and they say in a similar vein with, um, uh, with strange loop, like it, it would, it would lose something, you know? And, and in many ways I've thought a lot about strange loop whilst I've been listening to this and just like, this is some extremely good, intelligent, contemporary theater here that we're seeing where they're really using the musical theater art form at its best. Um, and yeah, I, I, it's very strange thing to say, but I really hope it doesn't go to Broadway and I just don't think it needs it.

[56:22] Tommy: I think, and I want to say this out loud and I'm forming this thought as I say it, so bear with me, but I do think our reaction to this is very much related to a conversation that's happening right now with Broadway reopening and everyone's like, Oh, but look, tickets still cost $500. And that creates a poisonous feedback loop where, well, if I'm paying that much to see a show then I have a certain level of expectation of what kind of quality and production design to expect. And that very much limits the kind of shows that happen. And not that you shouldn't pay for shows and not that actors and, you know, folks shouldn't be paid, but I think we all know the, you know, or there is at least an assumption that the markup you're seeing on that ticket isn't leading to highly inflated actor salaries, you know, that's going into the producer's pocket.

[57:18] Jimi: Yeah, exactly.

[57:41] Jimi: I don't want the team to feel like we need to Broadway-fy this, because it's just not going to work on this small scale, because shows like that don't work. And I just can't be arsed with that dialogue anymore. It's too limiting and it is too restrictive. And like, this is the kind of theatre I want to see going forward. And so, yeah, I really hope.

[58:08] Tommy: It does. I know we're on a tangent of a tangent, but this is a conversation I had with the director at my school recently, because we're trying to choose literature for next year's shows. And yes, if you are one of my students, I'm not going to tell you what we're thinking about. Nice try.

[58:25] Jimi: But...

[58:26] Tommy: I already know.

[58:28] Jimi: I actually think I do. I think you have told me.

[58:30] Tommy: We'll talk, Offpod.

[58:33] Jimi: Let me just say, it's got a lot of great parts in it.

[58:39] Tommy: It's hard to choose high school literature these days, because a lot of contemporary stuff is either small, like this one is, or just inappropriate enough that it's a tough sell. Like Spelling Bee, let's say. And I don't want to do my unfortunate distraction.

[59:05] Jimi: Oh.

[59:06] Tommy: Right? And it's such a... I would want to do the song My Unfortunate Direction. I would want, if we did Ride the Cyclone, for it to be that fucked up girl. Also, I don't have the energy to sit through meetings with administrators and parents or whatever and explain why I think this is important. Because it's not about this particular subject matter of those things. It's about the integrity of the art form and how I feel about inappropriateness, and I'm never going to be able to convince them of that.

[59:41] Jimi: And so it is tough. I find it really tough as an educational theatre person to really like musicals like this, because we're cultivating a world where high school musicals are going to be harder and harder to do. Because there's a squeeze on the other end as well. So many musicals that are big enough to have kids in them are ones that either are perpetuating terrible gender stereotypes or flat out racist or all sorts of problematic in those directions.

[59:56] Tommy: And so then you'd end up with this really, really limited pool of shows that are feasible. I had a whole conversation inspired by Ride the Cyclone with my director earlier this week about exactly this thing. So I'm happy to announce it here. Next year's musical at my school will be Ride the...

[1:00:30] Jimi: No.

[1:00:30] Tommy: I mean, I wouldn't be surprised at this stage with you.

[1:00:36] Jimi: Before we move on from Misha, I just want to read a stage direction that I just, again, helped me enjoy the love affair. So this is at the end of his love song Talia. Also, I sent the song to my Ukrainian friend. And he said it was nice. I was like, thank you. Oh, man. He said it was very interesting to hear you say those words.

[1:01:06] Tommy: You are Misha. It's fun because like Misha also has this like semi unrequited, you know, love. Anyway, I'm not going to get into it. Right. Okay. So the stage direction is the song ends, leaving Misha staring at his phone. Long beats. The cast gathers around Misha, who is clearly lost in sadness, not really knowing what to say. Noel touches Misha's shoulder. Misha hugs Noel with deep affection and sadness. Noel awkwardly hugs him at first. But as Misha's stifled cries move him, he holds him in a true embrace of friendship. And I'm like, literally never before in musical theatre. You know what I mean? It doesn't happen. And I don't know why. It's 2021. To be fair, this show was written in 2011. This relationship has been in the show for a long period of time. Just well done, these writers, because thank you. Yeah. About fucking time. Right. Anyway, let's move on from my love, Misha. Yeah. Who's on the chopping block next? Ricky. It's Ricky!

[1:03:11] Jimi: My first listen. Can I set the scene for you, Jimmy?

[1:03:22] Tommy: Yeah, please do. I listen to podcasts and music on my drive to and from work. It's about a 45 minute, 30 minute drive.

[1:03:28] Jimi: Love that. Normally, I do it safely with one ear pod in. But on this particular day, my ear pods had run out of charge on this Friday afternoon. I believe when I sent this to you. And this had come up on my release radar halfway through the day and was like, OK, this is going to be my ride home. New musical. It's been a minute. Love it. I was so disappointed that my ear pod was dead. But my very old Toyota Camry, I do have one of those. I guess you don't drive. I don't know if you're even aware of this. A tape cassette adapter for the radio.

[1:04:04] Tommy: Yeah, I know where they are. They have an aux cable.

[1:04:08] Jimi: Yeah. And then you plug it in. And I've got a little adapter on it because I've got one of those stupid iPhones. And I was like, I guess it's terrible sound quality, but I really want to listen to this on the drive home. So I was listening to music over my speakers for maybe the first time in my car for a very long time. And it was also one of the very first nice spring days in Colorado. Like, delightful. And so I'm listening to this musical with my windows down. I'm about halfway home and Ricky's song comes on and I just lost my shit. I was like laughing like a madman at a stoplight at how like where this show had taken me. Right. Right. Exactly. And so this is it. That is exactly it. Because by this point, we're in deep experimental stuff like you're in this ride along for the ride.

And so now we're going to do whatever the hell we want. And yes, we're going to do a song about a boy who had a degenerative disease, then died in a tragic rollercoaster accident, has then regained the ability of speech and movement and accordion playing. And now we're going to tell you exactly what he's been thinking about his entire life. Like, what? Where the hell do you come up with that shit from? Like, that is so good. Like, come on. That is fun. And then what he I mean, let's tell me, can you describe to us what it is he's been thinking about his entire life?

[1:06:01] Tommy: Well, so here's the thing, because like, Karnak's been narrating the whole thing and is basically like, who's up next? And so Misha gets us into this and says to Ricky, you know, Ricky, you go next. Why don't you express your truth and wisdom of the dying boy who can now play the accordion? Earlier in the song, he plays the accordion. He gets lots of compliments on it. And Ricky says instead, or I could tell you about the time I was a superhero sex god on a cat planet. And Constance says, definitely the second one.

[1:06:19] Jimi: I mean, it's really, really great. And so that I mean, that's pretty much it. He then goes on and sings this lovely fantasy story. Space Age Bachelor Man. That's it. And how he saved the cat people of the planet Zolar and was able to have sex with all of them. It's so why not? It's so wild. And I love, and I'm sad that a lot of Karnak's narration on the cast album isn't in the piece. And his narration of the piece is also fantastic. It's absolutely delightful. But his narration on the album is like, beginnings of stories are hard, endings of stories are also difficult, but the middle of a story is damn near impossible. Here's this sex god song, basically.

[1:07:13] Tommy: Yeah. And that's it. But that is that thing of like, listen, you're along for the ride now.

[1:07:17] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:07:17] Tommy: You're listening, you're loving it. You're having a great time. We're going to give you this. And the things that they put, so he ends up in like a full David Bowie-esque glam rock sheen, you know, from this lovely parochial school uniform into this out of nowhere, and they've got cattails and they're behind screens mimicking having sex. It's something else, you know?

[1:07:44] Jimi: And the setup is, they describe Ricky as like, when he started being affected by his nonspecific degenerative disease, he stopped talking and so did the rest of his family in solidarity.

[1:07:56] Tommy: Right.

[1:07:56] Jimi: But also, much like Leafkoni Bear, they live with 14 cats. And that's the backstory you get before he starts singing about his space sex.

[1:08:07] Tommy: Exactly. Yeah, I'm trying not to keep saying, it's really good. It's really smart because we're getting into the old ways with that kind of chat. But, you know, I mean, you're seeing gematomic reactions. This show is such a delight to listen to. Like, if you're the poor person who made it this far through and didn't listen to it, like, this is the time. Like, stop, go.

[1:08:32] Jimi: Yeah, exactly. Like, it's just, this whole experience is so refreshing and enjoyable. And it's, I don't know, I just feel like it has been a long, long time since I've gone into something and just been like, oh, yes.

[1:08:49] Tommy: Yes. Like, on every beat. So, so fun and enjoyable. And that was, I forget what, which bit of press I was reading about this, but it sounds very much like this show started as an exploration of death and loss and the afterlife. But then with a twist of like, you don't want, that's a morbid downer kind of evening.

[1:09:13] Jimi: Right, right.

[1:09:14] Tommy: And so how do you, how do you reconcile the two? Like, how do we talk about death, but still, you know,

[1:09:20] Jimi: Keep it accommodating.

[1:09:22] Tommy: And leave people space to, like, actually contemplate it instead of just feeling morose and sad about it.

[1:09:30] Jimi: Right, exactly. And I think, and the thing is, as well, it's like we said at the top, like, the writers aren't doing anything really groundbreaking here in terms of structure. Like, it is just a series of I Want songs and, you know, very skillfully written, but that is all it is. There's no, you know, deep twists or extreme storytelling, like each, you know, it feels like that kind of cabaret act. But where it stops from being a song cycle, I think, is the fact that the characters are so identifiable and unique, but also that it is united, like you say, by this overarching concept that everyone feeds into.

[1:10:22] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:10:23] Jimi: And I think, I just think that's really smart.

[1:10:26] Tommy: Yeah, I mean, that's the cleverness of it. That's the, you know.

[1:10:28] Jimi: I mean, literally take a drink for every time I've said that's really smart. I'm really sorry, everyone. I'm really sorry. I'm just excited.

[1:10:35] Tommy: It's such a fun show.

[1:10:37] Jimi: Yeah. Okay. We're getting there, by the way. We're almost there.

[1:10:42] Tommy: We are. I just love, and this is on the album, so it's not a spoiler. Constance says, after swinging Space Age Bachelormand, I'm so happy right now, I can never come down. And then creepy ass Jane Doe goes, my turn. And then the music like goes.

[1:11:01] Jimi: This shit's spooky. This song is creepy.

[1:11:06] Tommy: So, right. Let's segue.

[1:11:17] ♪ Musical number: "Worms Must Be Fed" — performed by the cast ♪

[1:12:01] Tommy: Read an article. So, I think it was Jacob Richmond, the writer.

[1:12:07] Jimi: And in this he says something and I was like, ah, oh no, it wasn't. It was Brooke Maxwell.

[1:12:14] Tommy: There you go. Because so he's saying, Brooke Maxwell was saying he's a newcomer to composing musicals and was less influenced by musical theatre as they didn't listen to Cats and more by rock music. And the thing that he cites is Tom Waits as The Black Rider.

[1:12:27] Jimi: So I'm a big, big Tom Waits fan. Thank you, my dad, for giving me that. And so The Black Rider is like, in many ways, it's the Tom Waits musical, right? It's not Tom Waits, like, a jukebox musical about Tom Waits. Not at all. Tom Waits has written this piece. More like a concept album. The Who's Tommy?

[1:12:41] Tommy: Yeah, exactly. The Wall, that kind of vibe. But because Tom Waits is an extremely intelligent and interesting and theatrical man, it's very, very good. And so the second he said that, I was like, oh my, that makes so much sense. Because this dark, discordant, haunting music is laying all the way through The Black Rider. And it's brought in really nicely into this.

[1:12:58] Jimi: So with Tom Waits, he's purposefully making it discordant and difficult to listen to, because that's his jam. Whereas here, it's still listenable. And it's still lovely, but it is chilling as fuck.

[1:13:09] Tommy: Yeah. You know, I said earlier in this podcast, this show isn't doing a lot of revolutionary stuff with music. And I think I take that back.

[1:13:16] Jimi: Well, I think so, yeah. It's extremely high quality for all of the twists and turns that they make.

[1:13:22] Tommy: And I think a lot of the songwriting follows some pretty standard structures, but then, you know, throws you for a loop when we switch to Ukrainian folk. And a lot of it is like, it's a three or four piece combo that's then pulling all these, you know, tracked and beat and sampled. There's a bit in Space Age Bachelor Man where you can hear, it goes, and if you listen really closely, it's a turn signal on a car.

[1:13:40] Jimi: They're pulling some deep, deep samples that are really out there for musical theatre. And The Ballad of Jane Doe, in this kind of deep, discordant way, is really leaning into some of these techniques.

[1:13:48] Tommy: Absolutely. And I think I was like, like, the, right, and I think probably it's particularly Brooke Maxwell. Like, this is a wonderful audition for him, because he's literally just been like, look at all of these wonderful things that I can do. So again, like, say, very high quality. Like, you compare this to something like Dear Evan Hansen, right?

[1:14:06] Jimi: I know.

[1:14:07] Tommy: And you're like, that's generic as fuck. Like, they're so samey. And then you dip into this, and you're like, wow. This is a journey.

[1:14:15] Jimi: This is a show, there are other, you can hear it happen in other shows, be like, well, we've only got, you know, a keyboard, and like a guy playing horn and French horn, and one drum kit. And like, and this show doesn't use its musicians as a limitation.

[1:14:29] Tommy: Not at all. Like, it started out with a bassist and a piano. Like, that's how they started. And it was still the same music, my friend. It's a bit more scored out now. But they just, yeah, it's just a very, very smart contemporary writer using, like, say, all the tools in the toolbox to create these hugely varied songs.

[1:14:48] Jimi: So, The Ballad of Jane Doe, we get to hear from the Headless Wonder herself. And up until this point, we really know nothing about her, mostly because there's nothing to know. And so she sings about that exact fact, basically. And what it's like to not have a clue about who you are.

[1:15:04] Tommy: And I'm gonna say it, get your drinks at the ready. It's really smart.

[1:15:11] Jimi: It is, it is the, this is where we start to pull together the strings that have been woven throughout the show, right? Because the whole thing is a contemplation on death, and on, you know, and everything that comes with that purpose, what you did in life, you know, what your unfinished business is. And then to throw the twist or the commentary on that of, like, what if you don't have a past, or you can't remember it, or it is lost? How does that compare to the others? And Jane Doe, this, you know, kind of gun-on-the-wall MacGuffin, right, comes out near the end of the show to start really driving the nail home about, you know, where is my soul? Is it with my head? Is it here? Is it with my body? And then it takes a dubstep drop halfway through where we get this, like, really vampy, jazzy bit.

[1:16:18] Tommy: Really, really, yeah, like, deep New Orleans jazz moment.

[1:16:22] Jimi: Yeah, it's a really, really impressive, and it's a really, really impressive vocal, actually. And this is, again, something I want to talk about, because we don't hear a lot for sopranos nowadays.

[1:16:32] Tommy: Yeah, fair.

[1:16:33] Jimi: And, like, this, so Emily Rome and whoever's sung it before, it's been scored for a legit coloratura soprano. And we really, really don't get that anymore.

[1:16:41] Tommy: No, not in a piece like this, for sure.

[1:16:44] Jimi: Oh, certainly not. I mean, like, well…

[1:16:46] Tommy: I mean, you'll see it in, like…

[1:16:47] Jimi: No, like, normally it's trotted out for, like, a comedy number, right? Or, like, a moment of, like, oh, look, this person can sing really high.

[1:16:54] Tommy: Right, like an impressive, like, Chenoweth style, like, let me hit the high note. Yeah.

[1:16:58] Jimi: Exactly. And, like, obviously, you know, Glinda is very much a coloratura soprano role.

[1:17:04] Tommy: Right.

[1:17:05] Jimi: Fine. But it's not… I think writers nowadays are going for your Belters.

[1:17:10] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:17:11] Jimi: And they're sticking in that lane as much as possible. Whereas this allows these incredibly talented singers to flex their coloratura muscles and do some really, really impressive vocal.

[1:17:20] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:17:21] Jimi: And this is a very, very good example of this. So if you're… by the way, yeah, if you're a soprano and you're looking for audition songs…

[1:17:27] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:17:28] Jimi: And you're bored of touting…

[1:17:29] Tommy: Everything else.

[1:17:31] Jimi: Right, exactly. Rodgers and Hammerstein for the 30th time. This is a fantastic number because, actually, it does have all of your duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh at the top, but then it does have a really, really strong lower section as well.

[1:17:41] Tommy: Yeah, I mean…

[1:17:42] Jimi: So you can really show off with it.

[1:17:43] Tommy: This song, I've thought this before, and it's the reason, like, 14G is such a popular audition number, right? Because it might as well be written to be like, let me show you my range through these two different musical styles, one that lives above and one that lives below, right?

[1:17:56] Jimi: Exactly.

[1:17:57] Tommy: This one, in the context of a show, does that. And, like, that's, you know, that's the other thing. A lot of those high soprano roles end up being very… I don't know the right word, samey?

[1:18:09] Jimi: Yeah, and they're often like…

[1:18:10] Tommy: Like, safe?

[1:18:11] Jimi: Yeah, and it's often like the, sort of, wallflower, I'm in love, and I'm going to sing about how I'm in love. It very rarely is that, like, I don't know who I am.

[1:18:20] Tommy: Right. And, like, just the acting chops beforehand, like, I'm the creepy ghost girl, right?

[1:18:24] Jimi: Right, exactly.

[1:18:25] Tommy: It's so wildly different.

[1:18:26] Jimi: Walking around like a broken doll over this whole piece.

[1:18:28] Tommy: Yeah, in giant full-blank contacts, like…

[1:18:32] Jimi: Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, there you go, Sopranos. Enjoy. But, sort of, narratively as well, I think this is, I'd say, one of the most…

[1:18:40] Tommy: this will seem strange, but, like, musical theatre-y songs.

[1:18:43] Jimi: Sure.

[1:18:44] Tommy: Do you know what I mean? But, like, this one, if this was in a cabaret, I would be like, huh? But if this was in a musical, I would totally get it. Does that make sense?

[1:18:50] Jimi: Yeah, kind of. It is, and I think we'll, hashtag, get to it in a second, but I do, structure-wise, my first couple times through, and even now, it was interesting to me that this song came before, what is it called? Jawbreaker?

[1:19:01] Tommy: Yeah, we will talk about that.

[1:19:02] Jimi: Jawbreaker, Sugar Cloud, which comes right after this, which is Constance's song. Because this song does feel, right? Jane Doe's been the mystery contestant the whole time. This is memory.

[1:19:14] Tommy: Right. This feels like it should be the climax, and yet, there is more show, which is such a fun, fascinating, interesting choice.

[1:19:22] Jimi: I think it's a really…

[1:19:23] Tommy: Clever.

[1:19:24] Jimi: Smart.

[1:19:25] Tommy: Smart.

[1:19:26] Jimi: No, I'm not using synonyms. I'm in it now. Yeah, it's a really clever choice.

[1:19:32] Tommy: There you go.

[1:19:33] Jimi: Yeah, we'll get into that later, because I think there's lots to unpack around that point. And I think it probably could have gone two ways, and I think you would achieve very, very different outcomes. So, yeah, I want to unpack that a bit.

[1:19:49] Tommy: And then, the thing that takes us out of Jane Doe's lament is Ocean wishing Jane happy birthday!

[1:19:56] Jimi: Yeah. And then not really getting, because they don't know who she is, and so she makes up a, using her improv skills, a random other birthday song.

[1:20:05] Tommy: Now, that's a good point, actually. That's a good point to talk about these. These kind of interstitial songs, I find quite interesting.

[1:20:12] Jimi: There are like, it's a cool structure, cool, clever, smart, for a show, that we've kind of swapped out the A plot, B plot, for primary song and secondary song that happens during the scene, right?

[1:20:25] Tommy: And that's kind of the roller coaster of the plot of the show, right? The peaks are these big, I-want-production-number songs, and the valleys are these, you know, often like deeply connective and funny scenes, which have a little bit of a song in it, or certainly some very specific underscoring. And then we, you know, go back up on the next, and which is different from how you would like a more traditional musical theatre structure, where you do those peaks and valleys through what this show would call like primary songs.

[1:20:51] Jimi: Like, you've got like a big, big song, and then a novelty number, and then a big, big dramatic song, and then another novelty number, and then a romance song, and then a novelty number.

[1:21:02] Tommy: Which, you know, lots of pieces of art are structured like that.

[1:21:05] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:21:06] Tommy: But it's cool. It's cool. It's different. It's a unique structure.

[1:21:11] Jimi: It's nice. It's different. It's unusual. It's nice. Yeah, you don't get that.

[1:21:16] Tommy: Nope.

[1:21:17] Jimi: That's Kath and Kim. Sorry.

[1:21:20] Tommy: Anyway.

[1:21:21] Jimi: But yes. You know, the reason that is because, well, the one that got me is, we've passed over it now, but it is Ocean Sings, the song after Noel comes out and does his-

[1:21:30] Tommy: Oh, every story has a lesson?

[1:21:32] Jimi: Every story's got a lesson. And so I was thinking about, this is a fresh thought that I only had today. And I think that I get why it's in there. I get why it's a song. Because it's, what, like 30 seconds long? Not even.

[1:21:41] Tommy: Yeah. There's no chorus. There's no reprise. There's no-

[1:21:44] Jimi: Right.

[1:21:44] Tommy: Yeah. D.C. Alcota.

[1:21:45] Jimi: But it's a full cast number. You know what I mean? Like, it's definitely a number.

[1:21:50] Tommy: And I was like, that is such a strange thing. Because it's not like every song, every person's turn is then preceded by a little small vignette number. So I was like, why have they kept this in as a song? And it wouldn't make sense diegetically. And I think that's something that we'll get to.

[1:22:06] Jimi: Yeah. I will say, it is easing you into, because it's between Noel and then Misha, and is easing you, because isn't Karnak's response like, oh, I guess perhaps every story does have a lesson. Like Pompeii, don't build your house next to an active volcano.

[1:22:20] Tommy: So I think that's what he says in-

[1:22:22] Jimi: Is that what he says in the album? Is that not in the script?

[1:22:24] Tommy: I think he is. Does he say it differently in the script? Let's have a look. I might be completely wrong. Yeah. He says, not every story has a lesson. Ocean now says, no, every story has a lesson, every single story, and then she breaks into a scene. So in that respect, I just think it's, if I was sat there watching it, I'd be like, huh, that was interesting.

[1:22:43] Jimi: Well, this is the one-two punch of the show, right? They're setting you up with this conceit that, huh, maybe every story doesn't have a lesson.

[1:22:50] Tommy: Well, but I don't think you think that, because I only thought that today, and I've been listening to this album all week. So I think it's there to hit into your subconscious, you know what I mean?

[1:23:01] Jimi: You won't leave humming, every story's got a lesson. That isn't the thing you remember in this show. But it's there, and it's obviously there for a reason in this show that's been worked on and polished down so many times.

[1:23:12] Tommy: And part of it is, and I don't want to talk too much about it, but it's setting up, I think, a story beat for Ocean later.

[1:23:18] Jimi: Yeah, but, yeah, okay, yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll get to it. We will get to it. But first, Constance.

[1:26:32] Jimi: So, first, I think we have maybe the longest talking scene in the whole show.

[1:26:48] Tommy: Yeah, my god. Get this in your monologue book, everyone.

[1:26:52] Jimi: Well, and like, and even leading up to it, is the most we go without a number in most of the thing, right?

[1:27:01] Tommy: Yeah, uh-huh.

[1:27:04] Jimi: And then... This is the kind of down, yeah, is the kind of like downbeat.

[1:27:07] Tommy: Right.

[1:27:08] Jimi: It's where we collect ourselves before the end, basically.

[1:27:12] Tommy: Yeah. Constance is a nice, bland girl, and self-describes as such, I think.

[1:27:18] Jimi: Yeah, she's the nicest girl in town.

[1:27:22] Tommy: Yeah. But like, not memorable, and not in the way that Ocean is like, a pain in the ass, and like, you know, really up there in energy. Constance just kind of exists.

[1:27:35] Jimi: But we learn, and this is foreshadowed earlier, that Constance lost her virginity today.

[1:27:43] Tommy: And she has this song about, like, joy?

[1:27:52] Jimi: Well, I think she has a song that's completely of acceptance. So this is where structure comes into play.

[1:27:57] Tommy: Yeah. This is the only song that isn't an I want song.

[1:28:01] Jimi: Yeah, that's fair.

[1:28:03] Tommy: Because this is a I got song.

[1:28:05] Jimi: Yeah. You know, this is the song of discovery that you would get at this point in the show.

[1:28:10] Tommy: Yeah. And I think that's 100% why it's at this point in the show.

[1:28:13] Jimi: Right, exactly. It's really intelligent. I don't know what to do anymore. Like, I don't know how to speak.

[1:28:23] Tommy: But yeah, basically, we've heard from all of these characters who are telling us their biggest fantasies, their dreams, their aspirations. And then we hear from Constance, and she just tells us about her life. And it is really the first time we hear about what's actually kind of come before.

[1:28:39] Jimi: Yeah. And what's, you know, what's actually happening. And so yeah, she has this really heartbreaking, gorgeous monologue about how she has grown as she's gotten older to resent her parents for not being ambitious and being comfortable in this small town.

[1:29:09] Tommy: Yeah. And pushing that kind of onto her. And she talks about how that makes her so angry. And it makes her a little bit sick that that's what she's kind of been given.

[1:29:24] Jimi: Yeah. And so in this kind of pit of despair, she has sex with this carny in a porta potty.

[1:29:32] Tommy: Yeah. Because it's the thing that you would do, you know, I mean, like, that's because, you know, small town girl, of course, that's what she's going to do. That journey of self-deprecation is really heartbreaking, but really honest. That was a bit of a gut punch, I think, for me.

[1:29:54] Jimi: And then the monologue takes this turn about how much exhilaration she felt during the accident, as she was flying through the air. This is very much the first time you really hear about the accident.

[1:30:08] Tommy: Right. They kind of briefly allude to it in the opening number, but they don't dwell on it. And it's not specifically about the accident. This is her saying, you know, up until this point, you'd be like, is this real? What's going on here? And this is saying, no, we're all dead.

[1:30:22] Jimi: Right. And this was my experience.

[1:30:30] Tommy: Yeah. And then she, you know, talks about how, like, she had all these delightful thoughts just before she died, and very much comes to terms with her experience in Uranium. And then that leads into this, you know, it's got a very musical theatre structure to it, but in like a very nice way.

[1:30:53] Jimi: It reminds me of, what's that title show song?

[1:30:59] Tommy: Standing in the backyard.

[1:31:00] Jimi: Oh, okay. Yeah. And way back to that.

[1:31:05] Tommy: Yeah, it's got, like, it kind of starts with that sort of feel. It picks up, certainly.

[1:31:13] Jimi: But it is just this kind of expression of joy and potential. And like, you know, not like Childhood Wonder's the wrong word, but it's in the same part of the dictionary as this song. Just, yeah, it's innocence. It's delight, you know. And it's in the title, Sugar Cloud.

[1:31:28] Tommy: It's delightful. It's very euphoric. And it's not the thing that you would expect to come after someone talking about their death, you know?

[1:31:43] Jimi: I was a little, like, reading through the script, I was a little worried, because there's the story of Anyone Can Whistle, right? And the monologue before...

[1:32:00] Tommy: What song is that? You Smug Little Men, Smug Little Schemes?

[1:32:00] Jimi: Yes.

[1:32:00] Tommy: That one. And, you know, I think Sondheim talks about it in whatever hat book it is, that the monologue was so good that the song didn't land, because the song wasn't as good as the monologue. And I think that is kind of a truism in musical theatre. Like, either get into the song right away and say the important thing in the song, or ditch the song and just make it the monologue, because it's more powerful that way.

[1:32:27] Jimi: This is a rare example where both of them right next to each other enhance, like, this is, you know, this is a, what, maybe a full page, maybe a page and a quarter of just straight up monologuing, describing her life in uranium, and the accident leading straight into the song. And, like, I have no doubt if you're sitting in this theatre, like, you could hear a pin drop.

[1:32:53] Tommy: Like, just, it brings you down to this little point, and then the song starts so, you know, quaint and mildly happy and slow, and then builds and builds and builds and builds and builds. It must be such a fun ride through this whole little story beat with Constance.

[1:33:07] Jimi: Absolutely. And also, like, up until this point, you've only seen her as the sort of browbeaten sidekick character, she hasn't had a moment of, like, owning her shit.

[1:33:23] Tommy: And so it's so great that she gets this huge experience of literally owning her shit and coming to terms with her own everything. And so that's why I think it goes this way. Because if you put Jane Doe here, you go back a step.

[1:33:43] Jimi: No, I mean, I do think it works. It's just a, I don't know, a non-traditional structure. Like, it feels, it's part of the, like, reversal of expectations that the show keeps throwing at you.

[1:34:04] Tommy: I think, like, the obvious choice would be to put Jane Doe as the last one, because she is the Grizabella, you know what I mean? She is the mystery woman.

[1:34:07] Jimi: Yeah, exactly.

[1:34:08] Tommy: And so, sure, that makes sense. But actually, the only one really to have that kind of non-aspirational experience that she's been told to have her entire life, what else would she sing about, you know? Like, it's so beautiful to have that moment of, yeah, okay, that's that. You know, I mean, it's like, she's almost taking herself out of the race kind of thing. And yeah, I like it a lot. It's a really, really beautiful moment.

[1:34:44] Jimi: I must say, the whole album, that section has been the biggest grower.

[1:34:49] Tommy: I agree.

[1:34:51] Jimi: At the start, I was sort of like, oh, okay.

[1:34:52] Tommy: Yeah, it felt a little childish. It felt a little, you know, uninformed.

[1:34:56] Jimi: It was poppy and like, la la la la. And then you work out, oh, actually, what are you talking about here? Oh, shit, this is amazing. You know, which is an annoying curse, I think, of digesting musical theatre in the way that we do. Because if you were in a house, you would never have that.

[1:35:13] Tommy: Oh, it would be stunning in person, I have no doubt.

[1:35:15] Jimi: Right. But when you're just listening to a cast album without context, etc.

[1:35:19] Tommy: It is a poor facsimile of the thing. But it does, it makes our jobs fun, right? You know, to get to rebuild up the other stuff. I do take a lot of joy. You know, fuck, this is why we do theatre. But in like, building up the show from just bits and pieces.

[1:35:39] Jimi: Yeah, exactly. It's fun that way. It's like a game.

[1:35:42] Tommy: Exactly.

[1:35:43] Jimi: Do you know what it is? It's not a game. It's just a ride. Come on.

[1:35:48] Tommy: That was a good, that was a great one.

[1:35:52] Jimi: Ding dong. That's the name of the finale.

[1:35:55] Tommy: And it was here, dear listener, where Tommy first complimented Jimmy on his unprompted use of the Segway transition, but also the two skipped important plot points that we will not be divulging in this podcast, nor they divulged in the cast album. Please take this as further encouragement to mount your own production of Ride the Cyclone. And please, we expect two tickets at Will Call under the names Jimmy and Tommy. XOXO, Gossip Girl.

[1:36:26] Jimi: It's great that we got Jacob Richmond to come and record the podcast, isn't it? That is so good.

[1:36:49] Tommy: Yes, we open our eyes.

[1:36:58] Jimi: And you give and choose. While you love and lose.

[1:37:09] Tommy: And you feel the world is spinning. With no ending or beginning. You just take a look around.

[1:37:25] Jimi: Take a look around. Take a look around. And round and round and round.

[1:37:42] Tommy: The kids sing a really poppy song called It's Just a Ride.

[1:37:45] Jimi: They do. So, the thing is, right, I've gone on such a journey with this ending. At first I hated it. At first I was like, what was the point in that? I'm so frustrated because I loved every single moment of this. And now I'm confused because I wasn't given what I wanted.

[1:38:06] Tommy: And then I read the script. And then I was like, oh. It's good.

[1:38:12] Jimi: And it makes everything different. So this is why you need to see this show.

[1:38:20] Tommy: Or, you know, get your hands on a copy of the script.

[1:38:23] Jimi: Yeah, I mean, do the show. Find a reason to do the show.

[1:38:27] Tommy: That's the thing. Yeah, actually, that's what you should do. You're right, Tommy. Do the show. License the show and perform the show. It's a great show. It deserves, and it sounds like I'm being flippant, but I mean it. I really, really like this show.

[1:38:41] Jimi: It seems like it's the kind of show that is gonna find its footing in these smaller houses, in community theaters and regional productions. And I don't mean to assume too much, but that's you all, our listeners. And so, do the show. This is a show that deserves to be out there.

[1:39:05] Tommy: I've been, we just this past week, Jimmy, had our first in-person performances of the last year and a half. And it's been a bizarrely emotional time, because you forget how much you missed it, in weird, specific, and bizarre ways. I forget what we were doing earlier this week. I was scrambling around trying to get some sound thing hooked up, like two minutes before house was gonna open. The sort of thing that previously used to stress me out a lot. And it was still stressful. But I did have this brief moment of like, man, I missed this. I really liked this.

[1:39:49] Jimi: And I'm coming to the realization more and more that we can talk about theater. We love talking about theater. We do it all the time. But this stuff doesn't exist unless it's done. This stuff doesn't exist unless it's on stage, or in a Zoom, or put through production, and put through actors' brains, and directors' brains, and musicians' brains, and then spit out on the other side for audiences to digest.

[1:40:10] Tommy: We are just a tiny, tiny, tiny attempt at recreation of that feeling in the way that we analyze and discuss musicals. Nothing compares to doing it live, to seeing it in person. All that to say, Ride the Cyclone is available through Broadway licensing, and you should look them up and do it with your local company. This is an accessible show. I think it would be a popular show. Everyone's kind of coming out of hibernation these days.

[1:40:36] Jimi: Ride the Cyclone. Look it up.

[1:40:50] Tommy: Absolutely. And actually, do you know what?

[1:40:58] ⚠ About 14 minutes of audio could not be automatically transcribed.