This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Tommy: Will somebody get us another drink? Welcome to Jim and Tomic's Musical Theatre Happy Hour. I am Tommy.

[0:12] Jimmy: And I am Jimmy. And this is the only musical theatre podcast with tastish hompers.

[0:20] Tommy: And costume hompers. Sorry, I've done you bad for that one. Here we take apart your favorite shows, muddle them together with a shot of buffoonery, and pour you a refreshing glass of musical theatre conversation. Jimmy, what are you drinking today?

[0:33] Jimmy: I am drinking something related to the show that we're talking about today. This singing isn't a part of the skit. I'm just trying to think of something. I'm drinking water with my pills.

[0:49] Tommy: You could have said ziti that's meaty.

[0:57] Jimmy: What is ziti, though? That's the real question. Does anybody know?

[1:04] Tommy: It's like a pasta dish, right?

[1:06] Jimmy: It's a type of pasta, yes.

[1:08] Tommy: We do not really have that here.

[1:10] Jimmy: Oh, pasta?

[1:12] Tommy: Ziti.

[1:14] Jimmy: Z-D?

[1:16] Tommy: Z-T.

[1:18] Jimmy: I believe Z-I-T-I, but citation needed. Speaking of questions, you've got one for us!

[1:24] Tommy: I truly do! Well, hey everyone! The show that we're going to be talking about today, autobiographical in nature so it is, was written by the author whilst they were recovering from the events contained within the show. What show?

[1:40] Jimmy: A New Brain.

[1:44] Tommy: Frogs have so much spring within them. God. Frogs have so much spring within them. Just play me what you have.

[2:06] Tommy: Hey mister.

[2:08] Jimmy: Hey you.

[2:12] Tommy: Pennies, or nickels, or dimes. We live in perilous times.

[2:31] Jimmy: I don't know what you're going to put there, because no one knows the titular song because it's not in the OG cast recording.

[2:40] Tommy: I'll probably put something near the start. I've done it now, so we've heard it. Did you enjoy it?

[2:46] Jimmy: A New Brain, music and lyrics by William Finn, Bill Finn, and book by William Finn and James Lapine. Love that dream team. The content of which is, as we said, mostly autobiographical.

[3:08] Tommy: Which we'll delve into in a little bit. But it premiered off-Broadway. It's yet to have an on-Broadway official stint. Out of the hospital, Bill Finn started writing a bunch of songs that got staged as a concert at the Public Theater. And then James Lapine was like, hey, that's cool. And then they workshopped it in '96 and '97 and then made it off-Broadway in '98. And then had a Lincoln Center Encores performance in 2015. And this is what the Lincoln Center Encores were built for.

[3:40] Jimmy: I love it.

[3:42] Tommy: Yeah, very much so. And the Applause Concert as well. Because that's so good. I still go back to that. I don't think it's the kind of show that would... No one's chomping at the bit to put up A New Brain on Broadway these days, I don't think.

[3:56] Jimmy: Well, I'd see it.

[3:58] Tommy: I'd see it. I don't think Joe Public would.

[4:02] Jimmy: Well, hey, who knows. I guess they did do Falsettos.

[4:06] Tommy: In New Theater.

[4:08] Jimmy: Yeah, fair, fair. You know, anyway. A New Brain. I was going to try and field it. And I just feel like there's no point in me fielding some of these.

[4:21] Tommy: I worked out what it was, actually.

[4:23] Jimmy: Yeah.

[4:25] Tommy: What it is, is you do plot. And I do theme?

[4:37] Jimmy: No, not theme. Like, concept. That's how we differ.

[4:44] Tommy: Sure. So what's the plot?

[4:48] Jimmy: I'll tell you. I lost it. A New Brain, being semi-autobiographical in nature, chronicles loosely the main character Gordon's diagnosis and then recovery from a brain problem.

[5:06] Tommy: An arteriovenous malformation.

[5:08] Jimmy: That's pretty dab good. I think that's right. They think it's a brain tumor. It ends up not being a brain tumor. But, by day, Gordon writes music for a children's show called Mr. Bungie. Mr. Bungie's a frog. Gordon hates Mr. Bungie and hates writing music for him and thinks it's trite and not worth his time. Then, you know, it is, has an attack? What do you call that? Like a heart attack, but a brain attack.

[5:41] Tommy: An aneurysm?

[5:43] Jimmy: I don't know if it was an aneurysm. I don't know if it was an aneurysm. He has an episode, let's say. Gets rushed to the hospital. We meet the variety of characters that are going to be with us through the show. Gordon's mom, Gordon's assistant, Rhoda, and Gordon's, I mean, lover, is perhaps the most appropriate term, right?

[6:05] Tommy: Roger? Absolutely, yeah.

[6:08] Jimmy: Although not explored terribly deeply. And then two nurses who work with him at the hospital. The thin nurse and the nice nurse. And then, because it's William Finn, there's also a homeless woman who's around. We meet her at the very, very beginning. She kind of shows up to, I don't know, comment on the show. We'll talk about it. It's an interesting narrative device.

[6:37] Tommy: Also, and I want to put this language caveat in here, and I don't know what it's like in your neck of the woods, Jimmy. The language du jour these days, the appropriate language, would be people experiencing homelessness or unhoused person.

[6:51] Jimmy: Yeah, unhoused. This character's name is Homeless Woman, which would have been the popularly used terminology of the time. I imagine we'll slip back and forth between the two. But I wanted to put I'm always about teaching people appropriate language. A person experiencing homelessness or an unhoused person. The idea being, of course, that that is not their identity. They are homeless. Instead, they do not have a home, which is a different thing.

[7:24] Tommy: Anyway, Gordon goes to the hospital. They operate on him. It's a lot of musing. He really wants to write a song to be remembered by before he leaves this world. It's a lot of discussion about leaving your mark on this world and healing through art.

[7:50] Jimmy: Sure. I think there's lots to talk about with it. Let's not give all the goods away at the start. But hey, he survives.

[8:00] Tommy: He does.

[8:03] Jimmy: Does he thrive?

[8:05] Tommy: Who knows?

[8:09] Jimmy: That's fair. Let's dive right in.

[8:13] ♪ Musical number: "I'd Rather Be Sailing" — performed by Jimmy ♪

[9:07] Tommy: This is something that we never really do, right? And I don't know why we don't do it. But we never ask ourselves, what's your experience with this show?

[9:19] Jimmy: I mean, so this show is definitely an earlier one in the Tommy canon, but for interestingly different reasons. This show did not enter my life because it was a CD I took out from the library. At least not initially. This show, believe it or not, entered my life because as a sophomore in high school, the senior in high school who was in charge of picking music for our show choir picked "Heart and Music."

[9:49] Tommy: Oh, okay.

[9:51] Jimmy: Which is not like, normally we would do very traditionally produced show choir pieces. Pieces written for dancing, singing, poppy choirs to perform. "Heart and Music" wasn't one of those, right? This was just a Broadway song. Or an off-Broadway song at the time, I guess. And so that was my introduction to this show. And we performed that song, which was fun. And then I was like, what's this? What's up with this show? I think I downloaded it on iTunes. And then the OG off-Broadway cast recording is definitely another one of those that I know by heart by heart.

[10:31] Tommy: Yeah.

[10:33] Jimmy: Yeah, same here. So I discovered it when I was going through my nerdness was budding.

[10:43] Tommy: Sure.

[10:45] Jimmy: And this was when I was trying to be one of those asshole nerds. Because I found this when I was searching for something that nobody else knew about. And then I found this and nobody else knew about it. And I was like, look at me, everyone!

[11:04] Tommy: I do get this sense, Jimmy, and I wonder how you feel about it, that this remains one of those shows that we know very well.

[11:12] Jimmy: Yeah.

[11:14] Tommy: Because we both entered this nerdiness very early on. And I can't decide in my brain, and I'm curious to hear on the Discord or wherever, if other people know this show. I think they will now.

[11:31] Jimmy: This is something almost that we could talk about. We've already viewed it. But I think it's so much easier now to find those shows that those shows, therefore, it becomes null and void.

[11:49] Tommy: Yeah. That's totally fair. Whether it's the Spotify algorithm giving you Venice, you know what I mean? I guess maybe less so for shows pre-1990.

[12:05] Jimmy: Yeah.

[12:07] Tommy: It's less likely to give you one of them because it's not as popular. It's a slightly different algorithm, yeah. But I think in our day, pre-Spotify, where you would really have to search, you would really have to find this. I can't even remember how I came across it. I think it was because I was a big fan of Spelling Bee.

[12:30] Jimmy: Sure.

[12:32] Tommy: And I think I probably just found it through Bill Finn. Because for me, it does sit in the same kind of pocket with Songs for a New World. There's a very mid-late-90s intelligent song cycle feel about this thing.

[12:48] Jimmy: Yeah, definitely.

[12:51] Tommy: Probably, let's see. When I was in high school, I would have discovered this five, six years after it came out, which is very contemporaneous compared to Pippin, right? In the order in which I was discovering new musicals. But it does, I don't know. It sits in an interesting shelf and corner of my brain. Because it was at the advent of that off-Broadway culture, where people were like, Broadway? Pah! I like off-Broadway musicals. And I like song cycles.

[13:30] Jimmy: I do also get the sense that there was a CD revolution in cast album creation.

[13:38] Tommy: Yeah.

[13:40] Jimmy: Certainly, there was huge cast album desire to create records, right?

[13:46] Tommy: Yeah. I would never listen on cassette tapes in heaven. I'm shooting from the hip here. But I wonder if there is. Because we know about this show because there's a cast album. If there wasn't a cast album of A New Brain, this show would have disappeared.

[14:02] Jimi: Like, there wouldn't be an Encores! Or like, maybe there wouldn't be, but like, you know, there's... I know, it'd be very unlikely. There's some interview with Groff, where he's talking about the process of getting asked to be in Encores! And the gist of it is like, he had thought he really wanted to do A New Brain, and then his agent or someone called him and was like, do you want to do A New Brain? Not knowing that Groff was also thinking the same thing. Interesting. And like, sure, we hear about these shows, but Jonathan Groff didn't see A New Brain live, right? He would know about it because of the cast album, and then because of working in the industry, and probably because a lot of these songs are kind of audition book standards now.

[14:50] Tommy: Yeah, exactly. But the cast album is the reason for a lot of those things. And so, one, I think that it is just a fascinating thing to acknowledge that there is such a barrier to memorability, which is a huge theme in this show, of laying down your tracks in silver or whatever.

[15:02] Jimi: Absolutely. But then also, that's how we know about it, and that's how it's lived on. And I think I'm articulating a thought that has been sitting in the back of my brain ever since I listened to this sophomore year. And that informs a lot of how I feel about it.

[15:22] Tommy: Yeah, for sure. So yeah, I think, you know, to say that this show has been with us for a long, long time. And I must say, I was really surprised when they did the Encores! And I was quite, and I told you this recently as well, I was quite defensive, because I love that original cast album so much.

[15:40] Jimi: Sure, absolutely, me too. But what did you think about it? Especially in prep for this show, the, ooh, promise you'll still love me.

[15:46] Tommy: I like the Encores! recording more. I guess one of those. I, again, in prep for this ep, having listened to it more with an analytical ear, I get what you mean. If we've removed sentimentality. I think that's what has happened to me. My brain finally, you know, climbed that hill that was like, you just like the original one, because this is what you heard first.

[16:17] Jimi: Right, exactly. Like, I think the new recording, the revisions, and the fact that they included the whole thing, but the story revisions, which we'll talk about, hashtag, make the show better. Like, it's a better recording.

[16:34] Tommy: Yeah, I think what I will say, like, one of the things that I think made me love it so much, though, was that it was weird in a structural sense.

[16:41] Jimi: Sure. Like, it never felt, and one of the, when I would tell friends about it, as I would always say, like, it feels experimental.

[16:57] Tommy: Yes, and it absolutely is. I mean, I think I have glanced over this in the synopsis, but the show, both versions, the Off-Broadway one and the Encores!, basically take place, quote unquote, in the hospital room, kind of implied in and out of hallucinations that Gordon is having, and then there is a whole coma sequence near the end of the show, and that affords it a bouncing back and forward in time.

[17:25] Jimi: The whole thing is almost entirely sung through, so like, if you're the kind of person who has listened to this but has never done some study, the Encores! version absolutely is almost completely the full show. Like, you're not missing a lot. And even the OG, the Off-Broadway, I'm sure for only logistical reasons that it needed to fit on a 1998 CD, is most of the show.

[17:48] Tommy: Yeah, it's pretty much good. And like, you would listen to it and you would follow along with what's happening.

[17:59] Jimi: Right, exactly. There are no scenes beyond what you hear as little spoken vignettes on the cast recording. But it does, because I remember, yeah, I remember thinking, I was like, this isn't by any means perfect, you know? And like, I always thought like, this feels messy.

[18:20] Tommy: Yes, yes.

[18:21] Jimi: Right? It always felt that, but not in a way that was like, it didn't stop me listening to it, I loved it.

[18:28] Tommy: And like, not in a way where you're like, and we should fix it.

[18:34] Jimi: Yeah, exactly. And I think I always thought about it, and I would always be like, I'm sure on stage, this will work so much better. And I think probably that is true.

[18:43] Tommy: Probably it is true, yeah.

[18:45] Jimi: If you listen through, particularly to the original cast recording, like, there's so much where it just darts in one direction, and then suddenly you're in a completely different, like, musical theme.

[18:58] Tommy: Right.

[18:58] Jimi: And you're going back and forth and back and forth. But there was something about that, that just really endeared me to the whole project, you know?

[19:09] Tommy: Sure. I mean, it does very much... What's the best way to phrase this? It subverts traditional, like, story arc structure tropes.

[19:25] Jimi: Completely. It's not a book musical.

[19:27] Tommy: Right. And not that it's not structured with, like, an inciting incident, rising action, a climax, a falling action. But a lot of the other stuff that comes with that kind of, like, hero's journey trope-ish plot structure that you find in musicals is really challenged by the structure of this show.

[19:44] Jimi: Massively.

[19:44] Tommy: And that we dive into, like, take Poor, Unsuccessful, and Fat, right?

[19:50] Jimi: Right.

[19:52] Tommy: Which is a song, if you haven't listened, which you should pause and go listen to this now, you know how the show works.

[19:56] Jimi: Yeah, exactly.

[19:57] Tommy: But it's a song that's sung by the nice nurse kind of bemoaning his existence, right? And that's kind of it, right? And it informs Gordon's view on life and is kind of talking around the central thesis of the show. But it's not like the nice nurse then gets some redemption at the end of the show, or, you know, we learn what happened beyond this, like, that's it, right?

[20:25] Jimi: Nor does it, like, very particularly inform the central thesis and circumstances of the show.

[20:34] Tommy: Like, it's like a, the whole show is kind of like a big tornado spinning around a central idea. And we don't spend too much time in the eye of the storm. We spend a lot of time spinning around it, which is fun.

[20:45] Jimi: Exactly. And it does, like, and it is, it's like these little vignettes do just kind of propel, I don't know, propel you towards a deeper understanding.

[20:54] Tommy: Yeah.

[20:55] Jimi: Do you know what's weird, right? This is just something that's popped into my head. We spoke on last call just there about whether you can make a David Lynch film, a musical.

[21:04] Tommy: Sure, yeah.

[21:04] Jimi: Right? If you could, if you would.

[21:06] Tommy: You'd probably get something like this.

[21:07] Jimi: I think you could. It would be something like that, like nebulous vignette ideas that cater to a bigger theme.

[21:14] Tommy: Yeah. It is one of the fascinating descriptions I saw in one of the things I was reading, prepping for the show, described Bill Finn as the anti-Sondheim.

[21:27] Jimi: Yeah.

[21:28] Tommy: And I really like that description. And I think Andrew Lloyd Webber is the nega-Sondheim. But if we're going to build the Sondheim cinematic universe, which I absolutely want to do, and I'm so glad those words just came out of my mouth right now.

[21:42] Jimi: Yeah, the S-S-U, S-C-U. Yeah, it makes sense.

[21:45] Tommy: Coming to Disney Plus.

[21:47] Jimi: Yeah.

[21:48] Tommy: The way that Sondheim, and he still will subvert it, but is all about, like all of Sondheim's shows are linearly structured.

[21:57] Jimi: And even the most bizarre ones are still just exactly backwards, right? Merrily we roll along.

[22:03] Tommy: Or we're using like very intentional tropes of time travel or reminiscent or, right. And it's very much built into and rooted in reality.

[22:13] Jimi: Whereas A New Brain is a lot of like fantastical realism.

[22:18] Tommy: Because I think the closest you could come to would be something like Assassins.

[22:23] Jimi: Sure. Yeah, fair.

[22:24] Tommy: But still there's, there is, like that ending is very structured.

[22:28] Jimi: And Assassins at no point pretends to be telling a linear story, right?

[22:34] Tommy: A New Brain, at its baseline synopsis, as you delete words in the synopsis, eventually you do get to like a very cut and dry linear story.

[22:43] Jimi: Right, right.

[22:44] Tommy: He goes to the hospital, they operate on him and then he leaves.

[22:48] Jimi: Yeah.

[22:48] Tommy: Yeah, for sure.

[22:51] Jimi: But I think, yeah, that anti-Sondheim, I think is so true. And I think Bill Finn is one of the only people that you could really comfortably give that title to.

[22:58] Tommy: Because I think lyrically, he is up there.

[23:04] Jimi: Yeah, toe-to-toe.

[23:05] Tommy: With Sondheim, like across the board in all of his shows.

[23:10] Jimi: I feel like there is some masterful stuff there that is portrayed in a completely different way than Sondheim would do.

[23:18] Tommy: Yes, like I think the both of them take such joy in finding the quote unquote perfect lyric.

[23:25] Jimi: But to Sondheim, that is while her withers wither with her.

[23:31] Tommy: And to William Finn, that is hotter than a pregnant cow.

[23:36] Jimi: Like.

[23:37] Tommy: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[23:38] Jimi: And both are the perfect lyric to either of them and neither would write the other lyric.

[23:42] Tommy: Both would detest the other lyric.

[23:45] Jimi: Yeah.

[23:46] Tommy: Or no, I think both would.

[23:47] Jimi: Both would appreciate and would never.

[23:48] Tommy: Yes, yes.

[23:49] Jimi: But would never write it.

[23:51] Tommy: Yeah, but what I would say they both subscribe to.

[23:55] Jimi: Yeah.

[23:57] Tommy: Is the concept of content dictates form.

[24:00] Jimi: 100 percent.

[24:01] Tommy: Right.

[24:02] Jimi: Which I think originally attributed to Mr. Sondheim.

[24:05] Tommy: But I think Bill Finn.

[24:06] Jimi: Yes.

[24:07] Tommy: Knows what he's doing here.

[24:08] Jimi: Because actually, and this is just kind of piecing off my head, but actually that is completely what the show is.

[24:15] Tommy: Right.

[24:16] Jimi: And it comes into that fact of it being nebulous and a bit messy and a bit scrappy.

[24:21] Tommy: But it's because it's, well, for the most part.

[24:24] Jimi: Yeah.

[24:24] Tommy: Significantly set in someone's mind where.

[24:27] Jimi: Yeah.

[24:28] Tommy: And that mind is going through some brain trauma.

[24:31] Jimi: Right.

[24:31] Tommy: You know, like, so it makes sense for it to be erratic and kind of hyper.

[24:36] Jimi: Like it feels like you're floating through this miasma.

[24:39] Tommy: I will say, and this is the thing in whatever listen through that did sell me on the 2015 Lincoln Center, the choice, they do it overtly and then very subtly later on to use the.

[24:55] Jimi: Like what I'm going to get this wrong, but like the EKG heartbeat pulse as.

[25:01] Tommy: Oh, yes.

[25:02] Jimi: A musical motif.

[25:04] Tommy: Yes.

[25:04] Jimi: Is.

[25:05] Tommy: Actually, no, because we'll talk about that a lot when we talk about the changes.

[25:08] Jimi: Excellent.

[25:09] Tommy: Because that is a point I want to discuss.

[25:10] Jimi: Just to say wicked clever.

[25:12] Tommy: But.

[25:13] Jimi: But wait.

[25:13] Tommy: Uh-huh.

[25:14] Jimi: Speaking of changes, I want to talk about the soul.

[25:16] Tommy: She hate me, but don't kick my shins.

[25:21] Jimi: I'm where your kindness begins.

[25:26] Tommy: Please, folks, do not spend time with me.

[25:31] Jimi: I won't ask you to treat me like your mother.

[25:35] Tommy: I'm not asking for sympathy.

[25:39] Jimi: I'm asking for.

[25:46] Tommy: Is.

[25:51] Jimi: Change the government, kill the mayor.

[25:53] Tommy: It's not fair.

[25:54] Jimi: How do I evaporate?

[25:55] Tommy: Change the system that made us what we are.

[26:00] Jimi: I don't just need money to buy more drugs than if you folks pay.

[26:06] Tommy: I'll go away.

[26:18] Jimi: Right.

[26:18] Tommy: Just to kiss Bill Finn's arse a bit.

[26:21] Jimi: Because I think it's masterful.

[26:25] Tommy: So, like, on the most surface level.

[26:30] Jimi: It's great to listen to.

[26:32] Tommy: Right.

[26:33] Jimi: Yeah.

[26:33] Tommy: It's just it's like vocally acrobatic.

[26:36] Jimi: It must be so fun to sing.

[26:37] Tommy: Yeah.

[26:42] Jimi: If that's your voice type.

[26:45] Tommy: Mary Testa does an incredible job on the OG.

[26:49] Jimi: And Rima Webb does an incredible job on the 2015.

[26:50] Jimi: Yeah.

[26:51] Tommy: But both equally great.

[26:52] Tommy: Both quite different.

[26:52] Jimi: Wonderful.

[26:54] Tommy: And but the actual when you start peeling that.

[26:58] Jimi: Like, I feel like that's one of these songs that you could keep studying and studying and go back to go back to back to.

[27:02] Tommy: Yeah.

[27:03] Jimi: And have all these different interpretations.

[27:05] Tommy: But I wanted I tried to like write out to articulate just how smart I think it is.

[27:10] Jimi: And so I'm just going to quote this verbatim from me.

[27:13] Tommy: So she wants change.

[27:16] Jimi: Not change.

[27:18] Tommy: But Gordon needs to change too.

[27:21] Jimi: But to change to just want change.

[27:25] Tommy: Not change.

[27:27] Jimi: While her withers wither wither.

[27:29] Tommy: Like.

[27:29] Jimi: Exactly.

[27:30] Tommy: Yeah.

[27:30] Jimi: Do you know what I mean by that?

[27:31] Tommy: I mean, I do.

[27:33] Jimi: And like, honestly and earnestly, I know exactly what you mean.

[27:36] Tommy: Right.

[27:37] Jimi: Because basically, like this song actually is kind of the theme of the whole show.

[27:42] Tommy: Like this.

[27:43] Jimi: And it's almost in the middle as well of the whole piece, which I think is quite smart.

[27:48] Tommy: But basically, this homeless woman.

[27:53] Jimi: I think she's called Lisa.

[27:54] Tommy: I don't know where she gets that name check.

[27:57] Jimi: But she has the character name of Lisa.

[27:59] Tommy: So there you go.

[28:03] Jimi: She wants change.

[28:03] Tommy: She wants pennies.

[28:05] Jimi: Or Nichols or Dimes, right? Because we live in perilous times. And what she kind of, her chagrin comes from the fact that a lot of other people who are successful and well-to-do and have homes want change. And they want to help her. And she's like, that won't help me. You know what I mean? Fix the government, kill the mayor, do whatever you want. That's all well and good. But at the end of the day, I need to eat. I need change. Or, all she needs is for you to change the government, kill the mayor.

[28:57] Tommy: No! I think it goes to a much more basic level of, is that question, what do you need? Right? Sure, but she has that point later where Roger tries to hand her some money. And she says, I don't want your money. What I want is change.

[29:29] Jimi: She doesn't say that, does she?

[29:30] Tommy: She does say that. The lyric? Yes. It's in a scene.

[29:35] Jimi: This is, and this is the double meaning of the song.

[29:38] Tommy: Yeah, but I don't think because then that then flies in the face of his own argument.

[29:43] Jimi: So it's both and neither, right? So, okay. And you, you blew right past it earlier, right? Pennies or nickels or dimes, we live in perilous times. And what you said was, she wants pennies or nickels or dimes because we live in perilous times. But that is not the lyric. You filled in words that complete one meaning of that lyric.

[30:08] Tommy: The lyric is pennies or nickels or dimes. We live in perilous times. There is an alternate interpretation of that lyric that says one cent or five cent or ten times is tough, right?

[30:25] Jimi: Uh-huh. Whether you're me, an unhoused person on the street, or a housed person making money writing songs who has a brain tumor.

[30:40] Tommy: What does she say later? Like, life doesn't get better. It. Oh, fuck. What is that lyric?

[30:48] Jimi: Well, when she's what was she saying? Like, it's at the end of Lousy Day in the Universe.

[30:55] Tommy: They all are. They all are. Like, they're all lousy.

[31:01] Jimi: Right. And so she has this assessment that there are systemic problems, and there are me problems, and they are different, and they are the same. And we use the same word for them, change.

[31:16] Tommy: Yeah, I don't think that's what she wants, though.

[31:28] Jimi: Can I ask you a question?

[31:34] Tommy: Yeah.

[31:39] Jimi: Do you encounter unhoused people on the street in Scotland?

[31:43] Tommy: Yes, uh-huh. How often and regularly?

[31:48] Jimi: Like, every day. Can you tell me more about what that experience is like, or what it's like? Like, what's the socio-political makeup of all of that? Or like, how does it fit into the greater narrative of Scottish politics, let's say?

[31:58] Tommy: Yeah, well, I mean, it's getting worse. The UK, like, since the, I mean, we're getting super political here very quickly, but since this conservative government has come in, I don't know the exact statistic, but homelessness has flown up. Like, it's awful, and it's only getting worse for a variety of reasons. So it's not as bad, like, I've only ever been in New York, you know, where it's a serious problem. But what's the, like, public opinion?

[32:29] Jimi: Like, if the public opinion was positive about it, it wouldn't exist.

[32:35] Tommy: Do you think so?

[32:38] Jimi: Yeah, and this is kind of the point of, this is, again, what I think the point of change, and it's where she says, like, hang on, I've got the quote here.

[32:48] Tommy: Yeah, which says, people walk by me with glee because I am what they'll never be.

[32:52] Jimi: Sure.

[32:53] Tommy: Right? And I think that's it. It's extremely honest. And I think it's that sense of, like, you know, the apathy that comes from activism, right? Not comes from activism, that comes with activism. You have to make that choice of, you know, you can only help so much.

[33:21] Jimi: Sure.

[33:23] Tommy: You know what I mean?

[33:24] Jimi: You know what I mean? Tell me more. Like, can you talk around that in a different way?

[33:31] Tommy: So, as in, like, you can help and you can do as much as you can, right? But the only thing that would need to then, you know, like, it's impossible for you to fix the problem.

[33:47] Jimi: Yeah. I mean, there is...

[33:51] Tommy: So, really, what would help is just give them some money.

[33:57] Jimi: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[33:58] Tommy: So they can eat.

[33:58] Jimi: Right. Right, right, right, right. But it's two things. But what would really help is change.

[34:06] Tommy: Yeah, but that, but...

[34:10] Jimi: Yes, of course it would get rid of the problem.

[34:14] Tommy: Right.

[34:14] Jimi: Yeah, of course.

[34:15] Tommy: Right.

[34:16] Jimi: But what she is saying is that's what people think helps.

[34:21] Tommy: I...

[34:21] Jimi: Is saying, like, oh, we should help, you know, I can help you because I'm going to do, I'm going to protest about this or I'm going to, you know, do whatever, right, to say against this. But actually, it's not helping her.

[34:39] Tommy: I think we're talking the same things. There is this...

[34:42] Jimi: Let me see if I can say this and if this jives with what you're saying. There is... Denver, Colorado has a...

[34:52] Tommy: And I hate a lot of the verbiage around this, and I'm going to stumble over it, has a very large unhoused problem.

[34:59] Jimi: And, like, the verbiage I hate is that, like, problem. And, like, not that it's a good thing, right? But often people...

[35:09] Tommy: I'm going to explain this in detail because I think it's part of the conversation. Often people say, like, yes, we have such a problem with homeless people, and they mean something different, right?

[35:20] Jimi: Yeah.

[35:20] Tommy: Right. They mean it is very inconvenient for me to have to walk past these people on the street, right?

[35:27] Jimi: Right.

[35:27] Tommy: They don't mean this is a terrible difficulty that our society is facing that these people are not being taken care of or don't have the resources for whatever reason find themselves in this situation. And there's a lot of political posturing around this sort of stuff. There's actually... There's a hyper-local news story that's been in and out of the papers for months. Denver has had a difficulty with an unhoused population in a way that even Chicago didn't have because Chicago has a lot of systems built for this. A lot of older urban areas have lots of shelters and resources and things that, by the time you see someone who is actually unhoused on the street, they've probably been through some system like this. And, like, there's still something missing in that puzzle, but you don't see it like you do in Denver, where there are full-on tent cities and encampments that kind of move around.

[36:32] Tommy: Yeah. And part of that is because Denver has not dedicated resources to those things. And with COVID, Denver was like, and it's been shitty, it's been back and forth, but the official CDC recommendation was like, let them stay in one place, right? Better to be in your bubble, in your community, whatever that means, than to be bopping around. But combined with, I think, the militarized police force of America getting a little squirrely, they kicked out a huge unhoused encampment that was on the front lawn of our state capital.

[37:11] Jimi: Right.

[37:12] Tommy: And it's led to all this discourse about this stuff. And finally, we have new laws in place that allow for sanctioned tent cities, basically, sponsored by local organizations to help people find housing and get resources and find employment or whatever resources they need to improve their situation. One of these sanctioned tent cities was proposed in a parking lot of a church in a very liberal, well-to-do neighborhood in Denver. And it really challenged a lot of these residents who on paper were like, yes, we have to help these people, we have to do what we can. But the moment it was going to be in their backyard, a big contingent of them were like, hold on, what are we doing here? And all of this does lead to one of the best ways you can help an unhoused person, generally, is to hand them money.

[38:11] Jimi: Right.

[38:12] Tommy: Is not to donate to a food bank, is not to...

[38:15] Jimi: And that...

[38:16] Tommy: Give them the food. That is a systemic failing, right? You would want the best way to help an unhoused person to be fund your food bank, build the tent city, right? Create the system to get them out of their situation. But because the systems are so fucked, the best thing you can do as a person is to physically hand them a dollar bill.

[38:44] Jimi: Yeah.

[38:45] Tommy: So she's asking for two things. Change money and change in these systemic failings.

[38:54] Jimi: Like I read, and this is where, this is our difference of opinion. I read, change the government, kill the mayor. It's not fair how lives evaporate. Change the system that made us what we are. That's the other change.

[39:06] Tommy: That's change, change.

[39:07] Jimi: She's also asking for that change, change.

[39:12] Tommy: But I think to me, that comes from a...

[39:16] Jimi: Change the government, kill the mayor, is so sweeping.

[39:20] Tommy: Right.

[39:21] Jimi: That I think it's like, whatever. It doesn't matter.

[39:24] Tommy: It's, I think...

[39:26] Jimi: All I'm asking for is change.

[39:27] Tommy: I think there's double meaning written into this entire song. Like the lyric at the end of that stanza...

[39:31] Jimi: I know, I mean, but that's the whole point, is there is. But I think all she's asking for is, you know what I mean? Is change.

[39:39] Tommy: Like, I think that, and based, so the...

[39:42] Jimi: Because we're slid away from my whole point here.

[39:44] Tommy: Sure, sorry.

[39:45] Jimi: Because what I was getting to was, because the whole theme of the show is like, take your time. Don't sweat the small stuff. Like, you know, you can't go epic, you can't go big. The best thing to do is just take it step by step.

[40:08] Tommy: Yeah.

[40:08] Jimi: And that is kind of what she's saying, is like, all well and good, change the government, kill the, you know what I mean? Do the big stuff. But all I'm asking for is just, in the here and now...

[40:22] Tommy: Is a quarter.

[40:23] Jimi: You know what I mean? Is just, I need a quarter because I want to eat today.

[40:27] Tommy: Yeah.

[40:28] Jimi: You know? And that, to me, is why that song is very much like the linchpin.

[40:34] Tommy: Yeah.

[40:34] Jimi: Of the whole show.

[40:35] Tommy: Yeah.

[40:36] Jimi: Because it's...

[40:38] Tommy: Yeah, it's the...

[40:41] Jimi: It's the theme.

[40:43] Tommy: Yeah.

[40:45] Jimi: I don't disagree.

[40:48] Tommy: I think it is an interesting...

[40:51] Jimi: It's why this isn't a mainstream show.

[40:54] Tommy: And I think that's a good thing. I don't mean that as a knock, right?

[40:57] Jimi: Yeah, absolutely.

[40:58] Tommy: But like, if we were, you know, if big budget producers were to come in and say, if big budget producers were trying to push this show to Broadway, before it was recorded, before it was ever performed, The Homeless Lady would have been the first person to be cut. Full stop. She's not a part of the story.

[41:17] Jimi: No, I know.

[41:18] Tommy: But I think Bill Finn would...

[41:20] Jimi: Right.

[41:20] Tommy: No, no. And James Payne wouldn't allow that to happen. Do you know what I mean?

[41:23] Jimi: I absolutely agree. It is just an interesting... Right? We know this is an entire... This is a inspired by autobiographical experience written piece. And all the other numbers in this show, excluding the ones that The Homeless Lady is included in, make sense as a thing that might have happened to Bill Finn.

[41:45] Tommy: This did happen to Bill Finn.

[41:46] Jimi: Right, right, right. But in...

[41:47] Tommy: He did have a homeless person.

[41:48] Jimi: In the context of him having his brain problem and then his brain surgery, right? The homeless person wasn't in the hospital. The cipher for Bill, Gordo, Gordon, doesn't meet The Homeless Lady until 80% through the show, right?

[42:08] Jimi: So her inclusion is fascinating, is my thesis. But I think her inclusion is vital because at every single point that she comes in, she changes the course. Whether she's knocking Roger back onto the track, or whether she's making Gordo realize that, you know, it's not about his books. There's no point in going backwards. Right. This is what you need. Or whether it's saying, like, all I'm asking for is change. You know, I mean, like, so she's, to me, she is the, like, she is the show. Yeah. You know, I mean, like, she's the Greek chorus. Sure. Yes, absolutely. Right. So I don't think you could ever cut her.

[42:52] Tommy: I don't think so either. I just, I think it's, it is what makes this show very non-mainstream.

[42:58] Jimi: Yeah, very much so. Absolutely. Anyway, I totally disrailed your point, and I apologize.

[43:05] Tommy: That's all right. That's, but it just goes to show how good a song it is.

[43:09] Jimi: It's a beautiful song. I did want to say, and like, pull the change lyrics up in front of you and read through them. It's the, it's the stanza we're talking about, and if you folks pay, I'll go away. Right? Either, if you hand me money right now, I will stop bothering you. Or if you folks get what's coming, or change the system, right? Unhoused folk won't exist anymore.

[43:43] Tommy: Mm-hmm.

[43:44] Jimi: And it's both those meanings at once.

[43:48] Tommy: Yeah.

[43:48] Jimi: In the simplest sentence that has ever been written. And if you folks pay, I'll go away.

[43:54] Tommy: Yeah.

[43:54] Jimi: Like, that is the beauty of these songs. And like, I guess, and like, this, this is the in-between we're sitting in right now, right?

[44:02] Tommy: Well, I think, actually, here's, here's the thought, is that one can't happen without the other.

[44:09] Jimi: Right.

[44:09] Tommy: So what, what people think that they want is the big one.

[44:14] Jimi: Mm-hmm.

[44:14] Tommy: You know what I mean? We need to end homelessness. Okay, cool. How many homeless people did you buy a sandwich for today?

[44:19] Jimi: Right.

[44:22] Tommy: None. Okay, how are you helping homelessness?

[44:24] Jimi: Right.

[44:26] Tommy: Do you know, like, that's, that's the, the conversation, isn't it? Like, that is what the song is all about. You, it's all well and good thinking about the big stuff.

[44:36] Jimi: Right.

[44:37] Tommy: But without focusing on the small stuff.

[44:40] Jimi: But I think that's the point.

[44:41] Tommy: You're never going to get there.

[44:43] Jimi: This could be an international difference, but there is a lot of discourse in America about this, that there are systemic, you know, healthcare and mental health failings that lead to, you know, people experiencing homelessness for the first time.

[45:01] Tommy: Absolutely, yeah.

[45:01] Jimi: Which are much more complex and systemic than, hey, here's a sandwich today.

[45:06] Tommy: And that both are problems, right?

[45:10] Jimi: Yeah. But at the end of the day, that is the reality.

[45:13] Tommy: Right. But it's, but it's, it's a, like, you, and I think we're saying the same thing. The point of the song is you have, we, you have to approach both, right? You can't just buy every homeless person a sandwich.

[45:30] Jimi: Right. But I think, yeah, so what I've said, yeah, but I think I'm saying is like that, that everyone thinks that the big one is the one to go for.

[45:40] Tommy: Right. Catch the big fish.

[45:42] Jimi: Yeah. But you then ignore the small fish.

[45:49] Tommy: Yeah. I mean, this, this is.

[45:51] Jimi: And the easy thing to do is go for the small fish.

[45:53] Tommy: This is an encapsulation of the, like, the Congress floor unhoused population discussions that happen in America today.

[46:02] Jimi: Exactly. Exactly. But again, how many of them are buying a sandwich?

[46:06] Tommy: Right. Well, I mean, and, you know, not to put too fine a point on it, but the, uh, literally in front of the Denver Capitol a year ago, there was a big, huge, uh, tent camp of a bunch of unhoused folks. And you'd think the reaction of the lawmakers that needed to go to work every day and literally walk past it and look at it out of their window would have been like, hmm, maybe we should do something about this. And instead their reaction was to call the police and kick them all out.

[46:37] Jimi: Yeah, exactly. Anyway.

[46:44] Tommy: Why did the golfer bring an extra pair of shorts golfing?

[46:52] Jimi: I hope this actually is a joke.

[46:56] Tommy: Um, I don't know.

[46:58] Jimi: In case it got a hole in one.

[47:00] Tommy: Nice.

[47:01] Jimi: See, now we can end it on a happy beat.

[47:03] Tommy: That was good. That was really good.

[47:31] Jimi: Um, okay. So I didn't expect us to speak for four minutes.

[47:34] Tommy: No, me neither. Um, but we can just keep running down this, whatever.

[47:38] Jimi: Absolutely. Um, that was actually in podcast that I said that.

[47:42] Tommy: Oh, excellent. But we could just keep running down this.

[47:45] Jimi: Yeah. Um, but right. I think it's important to discuss the, albeit minor, changes. Um, but they do have implications, I think. Um, so if we kind of go chronologically through it, um, the opening.

[48:06] Tommy: Yeah. The big one is that they never make it to the restaurant. The restaurant doesn't exist.

[48:11] Jimi: Calamari is perhaps the cut song.

[48:15] Tommy: Maybe, probably the only like fully cut song quote unquote in titles.

[48:20] Jimi: No, there's a few.

[48:21] Tommy: Are there? Okay. Well, nevermind.

[48:22] Jimi: Yeah, we'll get to it. Um, yeah. Um, so Calamari is cut and it's a shame. Because then you lose, um, the line of I love Mr. Bungie. Yes, indeedy. Here's your CD.

[48:36] Tommy: That's really good.

[48:38] Jimi: I will say big picture. I enjoy the changes in the 2015 Lincoln Center recording from a story and structure standpoint.

[48:52] Tommy: I miss the lyrics.

[48:54] Jimi: Exactly. So this is, and it kind of goes back to what I was saying about why I loved the show.

[48:59] Tommy: Sure.

[48:59] Jimi: When I first found it, because that was so erratic. Like I've been listening to this for three minutes and suddenly Kristen Chenoweth is singing something about ZT.

[49:04] Tommy: And yeah, I mean, you have to imagine, right? If you're picturing the staging in your mind, Kristen Chenoweth is this like weird ditzy waiter and hallucinatory Mr. Bungie is also in the number. And like, she's walking around like, I love Mr. Bungie. And he's going like, weee! Chip Zane is like bouncing around, like, must be a wacky start to this show.

[49:32] Jimi: Yeah, absolutely. Like you've been listening to this for a couple of minutes.

[49:35] Tommy: Yeah.

[49:36] Jimi: You know, um, but it sets you up. I mean, I think it still sets you up well.

[49:40] Tommy: Yeah.

[49:41] Jimi: For the, the mania. But yes, to give the revisions their credit, you land into the action so much quicker.

[49:49] Tommy: So much quicker. And there's a lot less fluff.

[49:53] Jimi: Yes. And also you get, so in the new, the new one, you get a bit more character development.

[50:00] Tommy: Yes. And, um, well, and even like, um, one of the lines that I thought was very clever that they add into the revision, um, and hashtag we might get to this later, but, um, I hate Mr. Bungie. Mr. Bungie is homophobic.

[50:16] Jimi: We, it takes a long time in the OG to learn that Gordon is gay. Um, and like, also across the board, it's not a terribly huge deal that Gordon is gay in the section piece. It is a huge deal in that it's not a huge deal, which hashtag later, but it lets us out him earlier in a convenient way.

[50:39] Tommy: Yeah. Because I wonder as well, like in the OG, where the lines like, I should try to locate Roger. Like, was that supposed to be like a, who's Roger? Who could he be? And then you get sailing and you're like, oh, there's Roger there. You still don't know their lovers until you get, um, uh, spend an evening in my art. I can't remember which comes first. No, not spending. Um, I mean, Roger go, just go, go. Um, yeah.

[51:09] Jimi: Yeah. I think you, you get, Roger arrives even earlier, which is not in the OG.

[51:13] Tommy: Um, yeah.

[51:13] Jimi: But I think just go is the first moment where you realize that, right. Oh, I guess these guys are, you know, more than just pals, shall we say.

[51:22] Tommy: And even written into, and I'd have to go back into the OG libretto, but there's a, the bit in 9-1-1, um, about, uh, and it's, it's disgusting phrasing and is appropriate.

[51:35] Jimi: Oh, right. Yeah. Is he HIV?

[51:39] Tommy: Um, yep.

[51:39] Jimi: You know, which outs him earlier as well. Um, and it's terrible, but that's, that's the plot and is of the time when this thing was written.

[51:45] Tommy: Exactly. You're so right, actually. That's when he gets outed in both of them is at that point. So ignore everything we said.

[51:56] Jimi: No, no, no. I mean, I mean it don't ignore everything we said. Sophomore me, right. Listen to this before I was like fully out to myself, much less anyone else. I didn't, it took me through college and like, I've listened to the show tons of times to be like, Oh shit, they're gay. Oh, that's interesting. I wonder because no, did you listen to any of the falsetto trilogy much later in my, before this later? So I listened to that before this, so I was already used to gay Bill Fred.

[52:25] Tommy: You expect it, right. So you kind of expect it.

[52:32] Jimi: Yeah. And I think, yeah. So I wonder if that's, I wonder if there is something there.

[52:37] Tommy: Yeah. But no fully I like, it took me a long time to realize this was a gay story.

[52:44] Jimi: Right. Um, so yeah, so you've got that difference at the start. Um, but I think the 2050, like if, you know, if we're going for efficiency here, it makes so much more sense to just dive straight.

[52:56] Tommy: Right. Um, you've got one setting, you know what I mean? There's no point in having three different scenes within your first 10 minutes. Can I ask you what your thoughts are while we're talking about changes? Cause I do think this one hits early on. Change? Change, all I'm asking for. The original, both are contemporaneous to the time they were premiered. Um, and the only, the biggest justification I have is that the 1998 one has no reason to not be set when it is.

[53:26] Jimi: The 2015 one has no giveaway, at least on the album, that it would have been set in 1998, except for one line when the doctor says he has tickets to Fun Home.

[53:41] Tommy: Yes. Which is a very intentional choice, right? To reference the contemporary musical in it.

[53:47] Jimi: So yeah, cause I think in the original it's Chicago.

[53:50] Tommy: Right. And so, and they could have just said Chicago, right? Or nothing, or rewritten it into something else, but to then contemporize it. And I wondered, and this might be a bigger beat anyway, but whatever, we're all over the place and this is a fantastical realism. We're, we're mirroring the structure of the show.

[54:08] Tommy: Exactly.

[54:08] Jimi: What your thoughts were on contemporizing the 1998 piece to 2015. And the reason I asked that is because so much of Finn's canon is set spiraling around the AIDS crisis. And certainly a lot of the content of this, right? Like doesn't tin, you know, he's, he's, he's, it isn't about an HIV positive gay man, but there are, there is the whiff of like, Ooh, a gay person in a hospital. Should I be cautious about this? Right? Like there's some reactionary feeling to this that I think Finn is struggling with that absolutely would have been evident in 1998. And I would wager would be much less evident in 2015.

[55:00] Tommy: And I get, I bet you, it depends where you are though.

[55:04] Jimi: Totally fair. And I think this is a really nitpicky thing and is, is inferring a lot of things, but it hit me as like a choice and a very definite choice to contemporize it, not even modernize it, but just say it might as well be 2015.

[55:18] Tommy: Yeah. I, I think actually it's been really well written by James Lapine that it doesn't ever feel timed.

[55:27] Jimi: Sure. Absolutely.

[55:29] Tommy: Which is ironic because that's the whole point of the show, but you know, it's going to, it's going to be a while before this feels dated.

[55:34] Jimi: Absolutely. Yeah.

[55:39] Tommy: Which, you know, because in terms of medical technology, um, we have television.

[55:46] Jimi: And I like, even do they, like, I don't even think, do they, oh, they do say is TV show. I was trying to run back. Like, do they ever, I thought they'd just call it a show, but like, I think even more so.

[55:58] Tommy: Maybe it could become, you know, Mr. Bungie and it's a content farm on, you know, let's go. But like, even more so with how timeless it is.

[56:07] Jimi: It is interesting me like it, it accentuates even more.

[56:10] Jimi: Moments that seem very particularly of a time in it.

[56:14] Tommy: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, definitely. And I think it's weird. I find the Chicago The Fun Home line a clanger. I don't really like it.

[56:20] Jimi: No, it feels like a throwaway, like, Shrek-level, jokey line for a Broadway audience.

[56:26] Tommy: Yeah, exactly. And, like, in James Lapine's fairness, it does have relevance. It shows that the doctor isn't as, you know, up on his patient care as he should be, which is a key part of his character, but it does take me out.

[56:49] Jimi: I agree. And it feels like a cheap joke.

[56:59] Tommy: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the other kind of change that we see relatively near the start, and I find this really interesting about the structure of the show anyway, but Heart and Music feels like the finale of the show.

[57:12] Jimi: Sure. And it is the opening number, effectively, because the 9-1-1 emergency, Calamari, rest in peace, are all tied to the prologue.

[57:20] Tommy: Yeah. You know what it is. It's everything that happened before the hospital.

[57:25] Jimi: Right. In the original one, they're the only scenes, save for maybe the homeless lady's revenge, that take place outside of the emergency room.

[57:35] Tommy: The emergency room, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or the hospital room, the hospital.

[57:38] Jimi: Yeah. So in Heart and Music, you know, it tells you, it's like an overture, but with words. It's an opening song. It tells you everything that's gonna happen through the thing. But in terms of its actual sound and song structure, I don't know, did you think, like, to me, like, I've sung it as the finale of many a show. Do you know what I mean? Like a cabaret show, because it buttons so well.

[58:02] Tommy: It does. And like, I'm curious, man, I would love, I wonder, Bill Finn's the kind of person who, like, his notes might be in an academic library somewhere. Like, I have curious questions about the very specific inception of this show, knowing that it was first just a bunch of songs, and then a song cycle, and then a workshop, and that, like, and I'm curious where Heart and Music and Time and Music entered the existence of the show, and which came first. And because Heart, I think you're right, Heart and Music feels like Time and Music was written first, knowing that it would be a finale. And then a pre-prize was written as an intro that was Heart and Music.

[58:51] Jimi: The other thing that bugs me about it, bugs is the wrong word, I think it's a beautiful song, I love it, it was my introduction to the show, is there's a whole, you know, body as being metaphor to this show, right? Whenever you get into, like, a nitty-gritty medical kind of discussion, and especially this kind of, you know, a human as soul, right? Is your brain you? All this discussion. Anytime you have mention of a body part, it becomes a little more symbolic. We don't explore a heart metaphor at all, other than this song. You gotta have Heart and Music, right? More appropriately, and less poetic, you gotta have Brain and Music, in some ways, would have been a better title for this song.

[59:55] Tommy: Right, I see. You know what I mean? Because I've always interpreted it as it's like, it's like your heart song, you know what I mean? Like, it's the thing that's, like, coming from your soul, I guess, so maybe, you know, but like, so that's what I've always, because he wants to write from the heart.

[1:00:09] Jimi: Right, and there's such double play in this show about the body as the existence, and your corpus of work is the existence, and the things you've done is the existence, and your brain is the existence, right? And so it feels like, you know, beautiful song, missed opportunity to pull another kind of double, you know, either give him a heart problem or write something, you know?

[1:00:37] Tommy: Well, 2015 has got you covered.

[1:00:44] Jimi: How so?

[1:00:44] Tommy: Because they sent the whole thing to a heart monitor.

[1:00:49] Jimi: That's true, and that's fair. And perhaps that's the solution. No, you're right. You've turned my— Do you know what I mean? Yeah, you've turned my own words against me. Thank you, 2015 director. Yeah, clever. But yeah, and it's smart. It's smart. It is really smart, because it explains heart, and it gives you that. And like, even more specifically, it explains why in that moment, Gordon says, you gotta have heart, like, he could point at the heart monitor.

[1:01:13] Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And music.

[1:01:20] Jimi: Yeah, so I think here's where I really start to give the 2015 a lot of credit, because I think it comes down to the orchestration.

[1:01:29] Tommy: Absolutely.

[1:01:29] Jimi: Because the song, as far as I know, and I haven't— I wouldn't say I've listened to 2015 enough to know exactly where the exact differences are within the song. But as far as I know, it's pretty much the exact same.

[1:01:42] Tommy: Yeah, there's bits and bobs here and there, which is also a fascinating study. There's less chorus. I know that.

[1:01:46] Jimi: There is less chorus. And they save a lot of that for the finale, which I think is important, because the finale is the finale. And so it should feel like it has grown since the original, which in the '98, it doesn't. Time and Music is a lot simpler than Heart and Music, which I guess has its own meaning. But yeah, I think that setting it to the heart monitor, making it a little bit more parallel. There's a little bit of thread.

[1:02:18] Tommy: That's what I was going to say. It's darker. Heart and Music in the '98 feels like a bop. Feels like, and welcome to the show. Here we go. Gonna tell you the story about this guy.

[1:02:32] Jimi: Whereas Heart and Music in the 2015, you're right, is more perilous. You're a little more on a tight rope. You a little bit don't know if this guy's going to die or not. And that's important.

[1:02:43] Tommy: Exactly. And then, yeah, Time and Music does just feel like elation and relief and joy.

[1:02:50] Jimi: A celebration, yeah. It's an exhale. I think that's a really solid change. However, a change that I don't like, I understand it, I don't like it, is the reduction of the coma sequence.

[1:03:06] Tommy: Sure.

[1:03:06] Jimi: So in the original, basically what happens is Gordon has the operation. He, as a result, ends up in a coma and we take a brief spin around his mind where we meet different characters and different vignettes and everything contributes towards the overall theme of the show. In the 2015, that is substantially slashed. And I say substantially, basically they cut two songs.

[1:03:45] Tommy: That's still a lot.

[1:03:47] Jimi: It's still a lot. In the grand scheme of things, it's still a lot. But actually, one of the things that I think it does is it reduces the part of Rhoda substantially.

[1:04:01] Tommy: Sure.

[1:04:02] Jimi: So the song that she has in the original that gets cut is a song called Whenever I Dream. And it's like a ventriloquist puppet, very, you know, both reach for the gun style thing. And it basically is discussing the kind of frantic artist part of Gordon's brain. And I understand, I totally get why they, you know, the inner dramaturge in me completely understands why they cut it because A, Rhoda is a B part, and also it's like, we get what he's like as a creative, we don't need to talk about that, you know, yeah, right. But I think it's such a really cool, weird, again, very experimental song. I do think it's a shame that it's not there.

[1:05:00] Tommy: I mean, I think with the cut, so they cut Whenever I Dream and Eating Myself Up Alive in the coma sequence. And I do think, so then really all that's left is the music still plays on, which doesn't really, it's kind of in and out of his brain, right?

[1:05:22] Jimi: Yeah, exactly. It's included as part of the coma sequence. But it could take place in real life or not.

[1:05:30] Tommy: Exactly.

[1:05:31] Jimi: And so all we have is Mr. Bungie singing Don't Give It. And so we miss the—

[1:05:39] Tommy: And Brain Dead.

[1:05:39] Jimi: And Brain Dead, right? But so we cut with like Brain Dead in, if we're talking as like, this is a little mini play, this is a little mini arc. Brain Dead is an exposition song. We miss this kind of manic, chaotic, here's what's going on inside of my comatose brain, and then cut immediately to the denouement of here's how we get back out. And, you know, I would be interested to be in the revision room when they were cutting these songs.

[1:06:16] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:06:17] Jimi: It feels, and like, behind the curtain, you'll never hear it in the podcast. Jimmy and I spent a lot of time trying to figure out whether this was a one act or two act show, discovering that it's a one act show, which is a surprise to me.

[1:06:33] Tommy: I'm just surprised because, I mean, I've read. Well, also, to be honest, the jury's still—

[1:06:41] Jimi: Still out. No, far as we can tell, no intermission listed in any published materials.

[1:06:46] Tommy: Published material.

[1:06:46] Jimi: Nor did the Lincoln Center take an interval, but they cut these songs. To my point, cutting these songs makes it not a two hour one act, but at least a one and a half hour one act.

[1:06:56] Tommy: Exactly, exactly.

[1:06:57] Jimi: But, that seems like a cowardly choice, if we are leaning into the experimental, chaotic structure of this show.

[1:07:07] Tommy: Right. Because I don't think there's anything wrong with them.

[1:07:10] Jimi: They're great songs.

[1:07:10] Tommy: I don't think we've been tracked in any way. I love Whenever I Dream. I think it's a hilarious song, just from a content standpoint.

[1:07:19] Jimi: Yeah, exactly.

[1:07:23] Tommy: So, yeah, you know, it's sad, but from a sentimental standpoint.

[1:07:28] Jimi: Totally.

[1:07:31] Tommy: But I'll, you know.

[1:07:34] Jimi: Fine.

[1:07:34] Tommy: I'll forgive James for doing it.

[1:07:41] Jimi: But yeah, I think it's a shame because I think Rhoda doesn't feel as much of a part of the 2015 as she does in the original.

[1:07:52] Tommy: Because, I don't know, I don't know. Obviously, Whenever I Dream isn't really about Rhoda at all. But there's something about it that just makes her feel more a part of the party.

[1:08:07] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:08:08] Tommy: Whereas all she really does in the 2015 is panic when he has his accident. And then kind of forces him to do some work.

[1:08:20] Jimi: There's a bad rewriting of the 2015 one where Rhoda could be just replaced with Gordon's mom. And it wouldn't have the same impact. And Gordon's mom couldn't do some of the things that Rhoda does.

[1:08:34] Tommy: But yeah, maybe, right? You could do a hackneyed kind of cut where she's just always there and is, you know, hearing about.

[1:08:44] Jimi: Or she takes a phone call from Mr. Bungee who's asking for the song. And she's equally as caught up about it.

[1:08:50] Tommy: Exactly.

[1:08:51] Jimi: But Gordon still feels guilty. Not that that would develop Mimi a lot. But it speaks to how Rhoda's kind of underutilized in some of that.

[1:09:05] Tommy: And then especially with the 2015, also with the cutting of Calamari, honestly.

[1:09:09] Jimi: Yeah, exactly.

[1:09:11] Tommy: She's got kind of a little less reason to be with Gordon during the spring song.

[1:09:16] Jimi: Or frogs have so much spring, I guess.

[1:09:19] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:09:21] Jimi: So there you go. James Lapine, you know nothing.

[1:09:23] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:09:24] Jimi: How dare you?

[1:09:25] Tommy: About book writing.

[1:09:25] Jimi: I will.

[1:09:26] Tommy: You will hear from my lawyer.

[1:09:27] Jimi: What?

[1:09:30] Tommy: Not at all.

[1:09:31] Jimi: Not at all.

[1:09:33] Tommy: But yeah, I think really.

[1:09:35] Jimi: Do you know what? I don't know who did the orchestrations for the Encore production.

[1:09:38] Tommy: They're gorgeous.

[1:09:40] Jimi: But they're really, really good. And they really lend itself to the piece. And one of the things I do notice more about it is it does. There was a lot of Twitter discourse recently. It was delightful. It was one of those, you know, someone asks an innocent question that then everyone's like, oh, how delightful. You don't know that this is a thing.

[1:10:13] Tommy: There's a lot in the revised orchestrations that, for a sung-through piece, removes even more applause pauses.

[1:10:19] Jimi: Yes, absolutely. Which I love. I love for this piece. Because you, you know, you want to dive into it. This piece doesn't gain anything by honoring the actors halfway through and pulling to a screeching halt. And the orchestrations also do that.

[1:10:40] Tommy: Definitely. Do you know what, I think it's something James Lapine does extremely well. And not James Lapine, but William Finn, does extremely well in his composition because it's there in the entire first set of trilogy as well, where it just feels like a piece. You know, I mean, it doesn't feel like numbers. It's interesting because Spelling Bee is so numbers-based. It's so the opposite.

[1:11:10] Jimi: Yeah. Right? It's the complete opposite. But, you know, when you sit down and you listen to March of the Falsettos or Falsettoland, you kind of plug yourself in for a ride. And you just kind of swim through it. And they are numbers, you know, I mean, like they're defined numbers, but just, I don't know. I really, I don't know enough about music theory and music to know what it is about his writing style that gives it this feeling of all sounding the same, but being completely distinct and individualistic.

[1:11:49] Tommy: And even the revision adds in some more, what we would call like traditional hallmarks of musical theater, like leitmotif and, you know, reprise and underscoring and things that don't exist in the '98 one. But it does, I think you're right. He, in a very different way from someone like Sondheim, finds a sound for a show that is outside of the William Finn sound, right? That is unique to the piece. But then beyond that is difficult to describe.

[1:12:27] Jimi: Yeah, I do. And you know what? We had the exact same conversation when we were talking about David Yazbek as well, where there's like, it's distinguishable. Like, you know, when you're listening to a David Yazbek, you'd know when you're listening to a Bill Finn.

[1:12:46] Tommy: Yeah, absolutely. And I wish I knew more about music to know why. I will say, if you're like us and you don't know more about music, but you want to get a better sense of that, I highly recommend Make Me a Song and Hear Me, not the Off-Broadway albumized version, but the William Finn in concert version. Listen to that one. There's a picture of him on the album. Do that one. If you see pencils, don't listen to that one. I don't like that one. But the concert version, which then later was adapted for Off-Broadway, is like, it's a song cycle, trunk song, sort of dealio. But he narrates the whole thing, and it gives you a lot of insight into the mind of William Finn. And it's what you would expect, but a lot of good confirmation there. And because it bounces across his both published and unpublished pieces, gives you a really good overview of whatever the William Finn sound is. A good exercise for anyone producing another one of the shows.

[1:13:58] Jimi: Oh, yeah, definitely. I really recommend that. Listen to Show Notes. Boom.

[1:14:11] ♪ Musical number ♪

[1:15:42] Tommy: I have no idea, I have no concept of how this works, but it does work.

[1:15:47] Jimi: It's going to be great. People are going to love it.

[1:15:49] Tommy: In the meta of the podcast. In fact, I'm going to make another joke about that when we get to it.

[1:15:55] Jimi: Excellent.

[1:15:56] Tommy: What I love is that we've not had a single segue this whole episode and the whole thing feels like comatose.

[1:16:04] Jimi: It feels like the show. Absolutely.

[1:16:09] Tommy: You're welcome. All I'm thinking about is the fact that it's almost 2am and I've got work in the morning. So that's, that's where my brain is. Brain. It's kind of equivalent to.

[1:16:19] Jimi: I do think my favorite choice that the revival makes that the OG doesn't is making the doctor like very much. Oh, I'm Albert Einstein here to be your doctor. Brain. There's trouble in his brain.

[1:16:36] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:16:36] Jimi: Makes him. It's a choice.

[1:16:38] Tommy: It makes him kookier.

[1:16:40] Jimi: He is. It makes him more distinct.

[1:16:42] Tommy: That's fair.

[1:16:44] Jimi: Um, okay. Just to kind of briefly finish off, because we've kind of swum through the show in a very unexpected way. Um, I want to talk a little bit about like, just kind of song spotting. Um, and why I think it's quite cool in this show. Because so this is obviously an autobiographical and like, it's not autobiographical. It's not Bill Finn. It's not his, but I guess what is it? Semi-autobiographical.

[1:17:15] Tommy: It is certainly dramatized, but he didn't set out to accurately document his experience.

[1:17:25] Jimi: Right. And actually, and do you know what? Initially he did, um, and initially it was a lot more medical. Um, but he felt it just came across too much like a documentary as opposed to a fun, interesting story. So took out a lot of that stuff. Um, but then they're quite interesting and be interested to hear what was in the mix.

[1:17:46] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:17:47] Jimi: Anyway. Um, yeah, I was just thinking about songs plus in like some of the best songs and actually it goes beyond songs, but I think into just storytelling in general, some of the best story moments are the things that come from real life.

[1:18:03] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:18:05] Jimi: Because, so the things that, you know, actually happened to him, obviously you've got, um, the arterial, hang on, looks at notes, um, to get the brain thing, the brain condition. I'm going to get it right. Hang on. The arterial Venus malformation, um, aside, uh, other things did actually happen to him. So he had, uh, this really interesting kind of philosophical discourse with an unhoused lady that lived close by. Um, his mother did throw out all of his books whilst he was in the hospital. Um, and these are the things that I think make the show so distinct, like it's such a poignant moment because it's, it's something that feels very human and it's something that I feel like you wouldn't ever think of. Contemporary writing advice would say, this song's not progressing the story, cut it.

[1:19:10] Tommy: About, I think it would say that about 80% of the songs in the show. Um, right. Like my, you know, my favorite songs in the show, uh, Sailing and They're Off, um, you know, uh, Sitting Becalmed in the Lee of Cuddyhunk. Oh man, is a song that like young, naive me contemplated auditioning with, which was a stupid idea.

[1:19:32] Jimi: I know, can you imagine?

[1:19:35] Tommy: Um, no, I have auditioned with Sailing and, and They're Off. Um, but like are such, they're huge zags from what is the core plot and don't, you know, like Sailing, okay, we're learning about Roger and Gordon's relationship. Um, and They're Off, we're learning about Gordon and Mimi's relationship kind of, and it's backstory on Gordon kind of, but it's, it's not like in a lean version of this story, it's not necessary. In a, in a realistic telling of this story or by contemporary musical theater trends, it's not necessary, but the show is wildly different without it.

[1:20:29] Jimi: Yeah, I completely agree. It's, it's really, yeah. If you're in the brain, you need that. Um, also it's interesting. So he was actually asked while he was in the hospital to write music for, uh, it wasn't for a kids TV show. Um, but it was for a play like whilst he was about to have brain surgery. I think that's crazy. Who would do that? Um, but yeah, anyway, so to kind of finish off that point, like that it's these kinds of special moments that really make, make a story special and make a story distinct because you're like, oh, I would never have thought of that. I've never seen that anywhere else. And I love, I really, really love that.

[1:21:13] Tommy: Um, I also want to take just a brief interlude to talk about, uh, a guy called Organic Jim.

[1:21:22] Jimi: Okay. Tell me more. Is this not your superhero persona?

[1:21:26] Tommy: No, it's not. So Organic Jim, if, if people live in Edinburgh and they're listening to this podcast, they might know him. Um, so basically he is a local unhoused man, um, uh, who lives for want of a better word in the student area, not like the cause of residence, but just like where you would get your apartment, you know what I mean? When you are at university. Um, and he's been there for at least 30 years, at least. Um, and everyone knows him and everyone, uh, has had an interaction with him of some sorts. Um, actually what's quite sad is I was before this podcast, I was like, oh, I wonder how he's doing. People haven't heard from him since about October last year, which is really, really sad.

[1:22:28] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:22:28] Tommy: Um, yeah, exactly. Um, so I'm going to keep checking on that one. Uh, but anyway, he, he was just such an interesting person and actually Lisa in this show reminds me so much of him because he is an extremely intelligent man. Um, he never talks about his situation and why he, and I think there's a choice element to it, to be honest. Um, but he will happily tell you, um, about the vegan lifestyle before it was cool, um, about, uh, how to get, you know, good food into your diet. He speaks about literature. He speaks to you about the university. Um, he's just like a really, really interesting man. Um, it was also a little bit scary at times, uh, but he was a fantastic and there's loads of, I'll probably put, there's some great YouTube videos, um, where people have asked if they can film and he was always very much up for it.

And they would just be having a conversation. Um, so I'll probably link one of them in. He's a great man. Anyway, that was just a side track just because Lisa makes me think about him. You know what I mean? And that's similar. I think like you can have a relationship like Bill Finn did with whoever lived near him. Um, but you can have these really interesting relationships and dialogues with people.

[1:24:09] Jimi: Totally.

[1:24:09] Tommy: Who've obviously had a much more interesting life than I ever have.

[1:25:17] Tommy: The most confusing, the wildest thing, and I don't know if this will end up in the podcast or not, but Jimmy and I are having Skype problems, and when Skype is having problems connecting, the sound effect it plays, at least on my end, and the graphic it displays, it displays like a heartbeat, like echocardiogram symbol, and goes boop, boop.

[1:25:40] Jimi: It was the exact same for me.

[1:25:43] Tommy: And doesn't that lend to this point, right? We've been all over the place. We've been all over, and this has been a very, like, heady, meta discussion, which I find quite interesting, because yeah, we never do it, like normally we're extremely structured and rigid, but this has been more free flowing as we've delved through our minds, our collective minds. I think the show does that, and like, I think this is going to be a simple thought expressed complexly, but, or maybe a complex thought expressed simply, or just a stupid idea, but I don't know about you, one of the things I like about theatre is it can very succinctly encapsulate very complex ideas in a way that if you try to verbalize them, like we do for two hours every other week or so, it gets complicated. But if you're just feeling them, without the need to try and externalize that, it's super simple. And I think this show sits very highly on whatever that spectrum is.

[1:26:54] Tommy: Like, I completely agree. And I think it's because we regard it in such high thought, you know what I mean? We feel the show a lot. Sometimes that makes it difficult to talk about it.

[1:27:09] Jimi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:27:09] Tommy: To, like, academically analyze. And it, you know, encapsulated very much in like, well, you just gotta listen to it. You just gotta listen to it.

[1:27:18] Jimi: Exactly.

[1:27:19] Tommy: And you'll get it. But it does, you know, I don't know how you get there. Like, that's one of the, you know, the unpicking of a person's brain, which perhaps is thematically appropriate. But how do you workshop a piece like this, right? And knowing that this piece has been so thoroughly workshopped, after the workshop, what are those discussions like?

[1:27:48] Jimi: Yeah, exactly. Because I do think as artists, sometimes we get very navel-gazy and start talking around abstractions on top of abstractions. And it's really difficult to bring that down to like, but okay, what should this chord be, right? Like, but okay, what song should we cut? And, you know, to be a fly on the wall in those discussions. Like, those are the things I'm curious about. Screw the mainstream stuff. Like, what was cut? What, quote unquote, didn't work? Because it's such a... And especially because of the fact that this is an autograph, a semi-autobiographical piece from William Finn. How does he have these discussions where he's like, well, when I was in hospital recovering from brain surgery, this is how, you know, like, that's so... This is how I changed my entire opinion about art. Like, that's really fascinating.

[1:28:47] Tommy: I will say, you know, we were coming off Pippin and Jimmy asked me off pod like, you cool doing another like brain-centric one? And like a deep dive one. And I do think, especially one of the reasons why I was absolutely okay doing this one, other than the fact that A New Brain is, you know, deep and dear to me, is that it does have such a wonderfully celebratory ending.

[1:29:14] Jimi: Absolutely.

[1:29:15] Tommy: Like, I Feel So Much Spring is a gorgeous piece of musical theater. And it is so simple. And like so many of our favorite closing songs, doesn't, to quote my favorite animatronic fortune teller, doesn't make a lick of sense until you see it live. Like, listening to I Feel So Much Spring on its own doesn't have any of the emotional impact of hearing it at the end of this album or watching it at the end of the show.

[1:29:47] Jimi: For sure.

[1:29:49] Tommy: For sure. And I think, yeah, that's... Yeah, I think that is what makes it special because it feels like it's very much a piece.

[1:30:00] Tommy: In inverted commas. You know, there's very rarely times when I'll be like, do you know what I'll listen to? I'll dip into, I don't know, Cranie. I will say that is the bogglement of this piece because like, you might not dip into Cranieotomy, but I've auditioned with I'd Rather Be Sailing. You know, people audition with songs from the show over and over again, which must mean they have some kind of standalone-ness.

[1:30:01] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:30:28] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:30:29] Tommy: Yeah. Well, it's that thing I was saying about Bill Finn's work is he writes the soup, but you can still taste the ingredients.

[1:30:38] Jimi: That was really good.

[1:30:39] Tommy: That was really good, yeah. I said he writes the soup.

[1:30:41] Jimi: Yeah, no, and then you couldn't tell where you were going, but I was on board.

[1:30:45] Tommy: He does, he does... I should have said he makes the soup.

[1:30:49] Jimi: No, I like he writes the soup, but you could still pick out the chicken if you wanted to.

[1:30:54] Tommy: Okay, cool. Thank you. Thank you for that. Anyway, all of this to say, a David Lynch musical would not work. Thank you, William Finn. Just play some music, that was stupid.

[1:31:10] Jimi: Really, that's the meme.

[1:31:12] Tommy: But I think if anyone should write it...

[1:31:14] Jimi: He's still...

[1:31:15] Tommy: I wonder what Bill Finn's opinion would be.

[1:31:17] Jimi: He's still talking, like the music is already... you can hear the music for the transition playing underneath already, friends.

[1:31:24] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:31:25] Jimi: I'm like speaking through the...

[1:31:27] Tommy: I'm like speaking through the...

[1:31:29] Jimi: I'm like speaking through the sound proof glass.

[1:31:32] Tommy: Yeah, it's like the...

[1:31:33] Jimi: Where's my elephant?

[1:31:35] Tommy: The hook has...

[1:31:36] Jimi: Where's my elephant?

[1:31:36] Tommy: The hook has appeared on stage and is slowly dragging him off.

[1:31:39] Jimi: No, I don't know that.

[1:31:41] Tommy: You suck, that's The Simpsons.

[1:31:43] Jimi: I don't watch The Simpsons, I'm American.

[1:31:47] Tommy: They're playing The Elephant Suck again.

[1:31:49] ♪ Musical number: "I Feel So Much Spring" — performed by William Finn ♪

[1:38:13] Jimi: I feel so much spring, time and music.