This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Jimi: Ooh, there's a moth! Sorry!

[0:04] Tommy: Oh, Jimmy's getting attacked.

[0:05] Jimi: Stupid Britain! I blame...

[0:09] Tommy: I did!

[0:11] Jimi: I blame the Brexit!

[0:12] Tommy: Have you seen the, like, click-hole articles? No?

[0:18] Jimi: No, I don't think so.

[0:18] Tommy: It's kind of... Do you know what The Onion is?

[0:20] Jimi: Yeah.

[0:21] Tommy: They're kind of like fake news stories, but instead of being fake, they're just ridiculous.

[0:26] Tommy: They published a video that said, can you imagine if gay people said the things hungry straight people said?

[0:34] Tommy: And then it's a video of a bunch of gay people going like, do you guys want to eat? And that's it.

[0:38] Tommy: Or like, I particularly click on the gay ones. There was one, it was like, watch this son come out to his father and then watch the father eat six tacos.

[0:47] Jimi: What?

[0:47] Tommy: And it's a 12-minute... Like, they're really weird and strange.

[0:51] Jimi: I kind of like it, yeah.

[0:53] Tommy: Very, um, Tim and Eric.

[0:55] Jimi: Did you ever watch Tim and Eric?

[0:56] Tommy: Very Tim and Eric, yeah.

[0:57] Jimi: Yeah.

[0:57] Tommy: Very, very Tim and Eric.

[0:58] Tommy: But they posted one and it said, please like this to wish the UK good luck on its trip around the world.

[1:09] Jimi: I like it.

[1:15] Tommy: Will somebody get us another drink?

[1:17] Tommy: We interrupt our program to bring you this important message.

[1:24] Tommy: Hi everyone, Future Tommy here. I've got two quick pieces of business before we get into it.

[1:28] Tommy: Number one, a big, huge, warm welcome to all of our great Comet fans and Josh Groban fans and anyone else who's discovered our nerdy, dinky little podcast.

[1:39] Tommy: The Great Comet and Dave Malloy have been just wonderful supporters on Twitter, and I'm sure this is not the last we're going to hear about them.

[1:46] Tommy: If you're new to this podcast, my name is Tommy, and my podcast mate Jimmy and I are just so happy that you're here.

[1:53] Tommy: This is a musical theater podcast, and we talk about one show, one musical, an episode. Old musicals, new musicals, popular, obscure, we've talked about all kinds of shows.

[2:04] Tommy: You can find all of our episodes online if you go to jimandtomic.com, or just search that in iTunes.

[2:10] Tommy: If you're looking for a place to jump in, Jimmy is a big fan of episode number six, A Cabaret Cocktail, where we talk about Kander and Ebb's musical, Cabaret.

[2:18] Tommy: I'm partial to number nine, Dinner with Dolly, about Jerry Herman's fabulous Hello, Dolly, or just start listening from this one. You can jump in any time, we're so happy you're here.

[2:28] Tommy: That was the first piece of business. Second piece of business.

[2:33] Tommy: This episode you're about to listen to talks a little bit about politics and a lot about guns.

[2:42] Tommy: Jimmy and I picked this musical that we're going to talk about intentionally to try and tackle some of these issues.

[2:50] Tommy: Now, the way our recording schedule works, we recorded this episode a couple of weeks ago, before Elton Sterling was shot in Baton Rouge, before Philando Castile in St. Paul, before the Black Lives Matter rallies and protests in St. Paul and Baton Rouge and Chicago and New York and Dallas, before those police officers were shot in Dallas.

[3:22] Tommy: We, Jimmy and I, don't talk about any of those awful tragedies in this episode because they hadn't happened yet. We were responding to different tragedies.

[3:35] Tommy: The tragedy in Orlando, where 49 people were shot in the gay Pulse nightclub, the shooting of lawmaker Joe Cox in Britain, and all of the xenophobia and hate stemming from the Brexit vote.

[3:50] Tommy: All of these tragedies are awful. It is impossible to compare all of these tragedies. All of these tragedies.

[4:01] Tommy: They all happen to different people in different ways, and affect different groups of people in different ways, and we respond to them in different ways.

[4:09] Tommy: And the important thing, I don't know what the important thing is. I just know that we're all feeling stuff, you know?

[4:20] Tommy: You're feeling your sadness, we're feeling our sadness, and everyone's trying to do something about it.

[4:26] Tommy: And the only do-something-about-it category we have is make a podcast.

[4:33] Tommy: So, that's what this is. And it's much happier than this announcement makes it seem.

[4:39] Tommy: There's lots of fun parts, you know, it's musical theater, we enjoy it. But we felt it was important to just take this moment and acknowledge that we're dealing with some big, complex issues that no one has sorted out yet.

[4:59] Tommy: And that we all just need to remember to help each other. To love each other, to look forward, and keep going.

[5:12] Tommy: And now, we'll keep going with the podcast. That cool?

[5:17] Jimi: Great.

[5:18] Tommy: Oh, also, we swear a couple times, but you'll be fine with that.

[5:25] Jimi: Cool.

[5:25] Tommy: All right. Here goes the podcast. Thanks for listening.

[5:33] Jimi: So, hey, Mr. T. What are we going to talk about today?

[5:36] Tommy: Hey, Mr. J. Well, as you may remember, our quiz question...

[5:40] Jimi: I forgot that.

[5:41] Tommy: Yeah, let me remind you of it because I know it's been so long since you heard it.

[5:46] Jimi: Right.

[5:47] Tommy: Um, despite its original production premiering off-Broadway, when this show was remounted 14 years later, the Tony Administration Committee deemed it was only eligible to be nominated as a revival of a musical.

[5:58] Jimi: Weird.

[5:59] Tommy: So weird.

[6:01] Jimi: So weird.

[6:01] Tommy: It could only be one thing, perhaps.

[6:05] Jimi: What's that, Jimmy?

[6:06] Tommy: Assassin.

[6:10] Jimi: Did that sound, like, mysterious and scary enough?

[6:12] Tommy: That did sound mysterious and scary enough.

[6:14] Jimi: Hey, kid, failed your test.

[6:18] Tommy: Dream girl, unimpressed. Show her you're the best.

[6:24] Jimi: If you can shoot a president, you can get the prize with the big blue eyes.

[6:32] Tommy: Skinny little thighs and those big blue eyes.

[6:35] Jimi: Mister!

[6:37] Tommy: Everybody's got the right to be happy.

[6:41] Jimi: Don't stay mad, life's not as bad as it seems.

[6:49] Tommy: If you keep your goal in sight, you can climb to any height. Everybody's got the right to their dreams.

[7:01] Jimi: So, yeah, we're talking Assassin.

[7:02] Tommy: This is kind of inspired by your exquisite...

[7:06] Jimi: It's very stressful.

[7:08] Tommy: Yeah, that was a Broadway production in its own right.

[7:11] Jimi: That was so stressful.

[7:13] Tommy: If you all missed it, the highlights and lowlights are on YouTube right now. I got some new live streaming software and, you know, I was like, this will be easy, it'll be fine.

[7:22] Jimi: It went well.

[7:24] Tommy: Many thanks to Jimmy for being my backstage help.

[7:28] Jimi: I loved it.

[7:29] Tommy: I'm putting it on my CV.

[7:30] Jimi: Across oceans.

[7:32] Tommy: Please, please do. I'm putting it on my CV right now.

[7:35] Jimi: It was amazing. I didn't know you could do stuff like that with live stream.

[7:40] Tommy: I'm learning every minute.

[7:43] Jimi: As are we all.

[7:44] Tommy: But no, it was great. It was good fun. But yeah, lots of you begged. I think there were many, many, many questions being like, just talk about Assassin. Just talk about it.

[7:54] Jimi: I feel like this is one of the lesser known, still very good Stephen Sondheim musicals.

[8:02] Tommy: Yeah.

[8:02] Jimi: And so it's like, it's like a good, you know, when I was a fledgling musical theatre nerd, this was one of the first shows I was like excited to find out about.

[8:12] Tommy: Right. Yeah, yeah.

[8:13] Jimi: Because, I mean, I think it hasn't, you know, it was never on Broadway for years and years and years. There's been no film adaptation. And on the whole, it's quite, you know, edgy.

[8:25] Tommy: I mean, this is a dark show, Jimmy. This is a really, really dark show.

[8:31] Jimi: And not even like kind of twee Sweeney Todd dark. This is just out and out, black, dark.

[8:36] Tommy: Dark and sad. Because like, Sweeney Todd is a myth, is a story. You know, this is real.

[8:44] Jimi: This is real. It's just a real musical.

[8:47] Tommy: Yeah, talking about very, very real things.

[8:50] Jimi: Yeah.

[8:51] Tommy: That you wouldn't necessarily associate a musical with.

[8:55] Jimi: Yeah. So if someone has never seen Assassins before, Jimmy, what is this show about?

[9:00] Jimi: So Assassins looks at the kind of lives and motivations between nine assassins or attempted assassins who killed or tried to kill, well, assassinated or tried to assassinate the presidents of the United States.

[9:19] Tommy: And it's, yeah, it's about them and about the effects that they had. And kind of like a nonlinear analysis and exploration of American themes, maybe?

[9:35] Jimi: Yeah, definitely. You know, one of the main themes of the American musical is, of course, the American dream.

[9:43] Tommy: Right.

[9:43] Jimi: And this kind of takes that and then flips it right round on its head.

[9:46] Tommy: And it's like, yeah, okay, I'll take it a bit. Nah.

[9:49] Jimi: Throws it to the ground and shows you the other side.

[9:52] Tommy: In the libretto that I have, in whoever the foreword was by, Andre Bishop, who was in the original cast, says something. Here it is.

[10:03] Jimi: Assassins suggests that these dreadful events happen in this country because our most cherished national myths, at least as currently propagated, encourage us to believe that in America, our dreams not only can come true, but should come true. And that if they don't, someone or something is to blame.

[10:23] Tommy: Exactly. And it's really that different, like, are you entitled to the American dream just by living here? And if you don't get it, you shoot the president of the United States.

[10:34] Jimi: Exactly. And it kind of also looks at very many different forms, like kind of all the different forms of what the American dream means. Do you know what I mean?

[10:43] Tommy: Yeah.

[10:43] Jimi: Is it love? Is it money? Is it fame? All of these things are discussed.

[10:50] Tommy: And it's really, really masterfully done, I think.

[10:53] Jimi: Yeah. I think of all this, of all the Sondhees, whilst I would always say that Sweeney is my fave, just because I love it, I would say that Assassins is like the most complete.

[11:04] Tommy: It's the most, yeah, I'd say that's what I would say. It's the most complete.

[11:07] Jimi: And I love it for that. I think, actually, even just beyond Sondheim, in terms of musical theatre, it's something that's such a unit that's like, this is a piece of theatre, A to Z, go.

[11:21] Tommy: I feel Assassins just ticks that box. And I think it all has to come down to John Wideman, who wrote the book. It's, in terms of like book writing, I say that this is a masterclass.

[11:33] Jimi: Yeah, well, and because it's an adaptation, like all musicals are adaptations. This one, in a big way, because it just pulls, you know, it's 95% historical, accurate description, and yet done so wonderfully, cherry-picked and put together to create such an interesting image out of the texts it's based on.

[11:57] Tommy: I find it interesting that you call this musical the most complete you've heard, not because I think it's incomplete, but because it has a very non-traditional structure.

[12:06] Jimi: Right, exactly, exactly. And I don't know whether that contributes to it or not, but any time I've seen it, obviously I was saying that I've actually directed this one as well, when you get to the end, it feels like the end, do you know what I mean? It feels like you've come the whole direction.

[12:22] Tommy: And that isn't just because the opening number is reprised at the end, you've had your full journey, that emotional story has been told within you.

[12:30] Jimi: But yeah, you're right, it's kind of the non-linear format. Even like, there's not a protagonist and an antagonist, it's not like A-plot, B-plot, it's not like I-want-song and then you go get the I-want-song and you're escalating tactics and then the climax.

[12:45] Tommy: All of that is just thrown out the window, but it is still very squarely a piece of musical theatre that sits very nicely in the genre.

[12:52] Jimi: I think that's it. I think because of the themes it's talking about, this idea of the American dream and the dark side of the American dream, because I think it is able to tick all the boxes within that theme, I don't know whether that just makes you like, I understand, you know?

[14:00] Tommy: Um, we should probably talk a little bit more about the, what makes this musical non-linear, like you, you know, you tell someone, in the same way when Lin-Manuel Miranda stands in front of the White House and goes, yeah, it's a rap musical about Alexander Hamilton, and you're like, wait, tell me more, if this is a musical about the assassins who attempted to assassinate the presidents, that's still a weird concept.

[14:28] Jimi: Yeah, exactly. And you're like, well, so what, is it like each of their stories? And it's not, not at all. Basically, it is, it's kind of set in this, what I like to call the carnival of the damned.

[14:53] Tommy: Non-historical characters?

[14:55] Jimi: Yeah, two people who live in this world, whatever world that may be.

[15:00] Tommy: Yeah, the proprietor and the balladeer. The proprietor who says, come here and kill a president, and the balladeer who kind of walks us through that story.

[15:08] Jimi: Exactly, exactly. I've got really interesting things, but we'll get to that. We'll talk about this story first.

[15:13] Tommy: But so then, we start out with John Wilkes Booth, and then kind of weave in and out through all these different assassin stories, and they all just talk to each other. It's not individual vignettes, and comparing their stories, and kind of delving into what... It is easy. One of the reasons Jimmy and I are talking about this show is because a lot of... it just kind of seems relevant with a lot of different things that are going on in the world today.

[15:36] Jimi: A lot of different things. The more I was researching it and kind of going back over it again, which was lovely, but I was like, gosh, this is so relevant. And it just started to think about everything that's happened in the past fortnight. It's not even a case of- It just feels like it's been a crazy time in the world. And one of the things this show does is like, all of these people are crazy in their own way. But oftentimes, whether it's in the news or in our historical retellings of what happened, we say, oh, they're crazy as a way to pish-posh it, and, you know, dash it off. But this musical points at them and goes, no, these people are crazy. Here's why. And it doesn't make them any less real.

[16:28] Tommy: Exactly. It's like they're not inhuman. They're not all, you know, people who have just been completely switched off. Some of them are. But some of them have come from extremely real places.

[16:38] Jimi: Yeah. And through, you know, whether a series of depression, or just complete disillusionment, have turned to this as their only kind of outlet now. Do you know what I mean? And they feel that this isn't the thing that has to be done. It's kind of harrowing as that is, but that's what's great about the show is that it really makes you look at them and it makes you think, well, no, why has this happened?

[17:05] Tommy: Right. There's a great line in Ballad of Booth where the balladeer says to John Wilkes Booth, well, Lincoln who got mixed reviews because of you, John now gets only raves. And this idea that you end up just forgetting about the person who did it. You know that he's a villain.

[17:22] Jimi: Yeah.

[17:22] Tommy: And you look at the target, and they're the victim. Whatever intention you had when you did it, you know, gets lost and thrown out the window.

[17:32] Jimi: And like it is, you know, good or bad, whether their purposes were achieved or not. A lot of the people in this story made history. I mean, in perhaps the climax of the show, John Wilkes Booth time travels to talk with Lee Harvey Oswald moments before he assassinates JFK.

[17:53] Tommy: And, you know, Lee Harvey Oswald is on the fence about it because that's the drama of the show. And John Wilkes Booth brings up the assassination of Caesar and basically says, do you know who assassinated Caesar? And he goes, yeah, Brutus. And John Wilkes Booth is like, yeah, 4,000 years later.

[18:11] Jimi: Yeah. Attention has been paid.

[18:12] Tommy: Yeah. You know, this man's name.

[18:15] Jimi: Exactly. And that's that's it. I mean, I guess we've talked back to how they get to that point, because obviously the I guess like the first half, the first three quarters of the show is finding out all about these guys, these assassins, what made them do it? Why are they here? And it kind of comes to this amazing head in this number called Another National Anthem, where all of their combined disillusionment gets thrown together. And to the point where actually, well, in the later productions, transforms this idealistic balladeer into Lee Harvey Oswald is this idea of this person who is the epitome of disillusionment. And they all combine.

[19:04] Tommy: Yeah.

[19:04] Jimi: So they persuade him to assassinate JFK in this weird little-

[19:10] Tommy: Yeah. Assassins.

[19:12] Jimi: World.

[19:12] Tommy: Past and future.

[19:14] Jimi: Yeah. Talk about how important Lee Harvey Oswald is going to be to their stories.

[19:21] Tommy: To their stories and just to the world. You know, they appeal to his disillusionment, the fact he thinks he's a nothing. In the show, he's kind of gone to the depository to kill himself. And they're like, if you do that, they compare it greatly to Death of a Salesman, where they're like, well, if you do that, you know, in Death of a Salesman, his wife stands and she begs for them to remember him. It's like, they'll just forget you in a second. But if you do this great act, then you'll be remembered forever and the world will change.

[19:56] Jimi: Which is very true.

[19:57] Tommy: And clearly, this is the 5% that is non-historical, right? John Wilkes didn't time travel to have a discussion with Lee Harvey Oswald. And the whole musical is written with 20-20 hindsight. So we are just doing some commentary on really growing American disillusionment.

[20:21] Jimi: Definitely.

[20:22] Tommy: Which is, it's very biting. It's very, you know, this is not a show you leave happy from.

[20:28] Jimi: Not at all. And then obviously, after that happened, there was a bit of a mix up with the productions. So from the original production, which was way back in 1990. Obviously, it went from the Texas Book Depository into the reprise of the opening number, and it was the end.

[20:51] Tommy: When they brought it to London, they ended the song.

[20:54] Jimi: Yeah. So it was Sam Mendes, apparently, who suggested to Sondheim, it was like, hey, Sondy, that would be really good. It needs something more. Write this song. And in a way, just thank God that happened.

[21:06] Tommy: I think, Jimmy, this song, Something Just Broke, is the first musical theatre song that ever made me cry.

[21:13] Jimi: Right. And don't blame me.

[21:16] Tommy: It is beautiful. It happens right after Lee Harvey Oswald assassinates JFK. And it's just, it's news reports of JFK being shot and dying interspersed with a bunch of people remembering that moment where they were when JFK got shot. And it is one of the most beautiful, moving pieces of musical theatre ever.

[21:39] Jimi: And that's it. So it's JFK, but it's also the other presidents throughout time. And it shows this idea that when this happens, when this monumental thing happens, it changes and it affects people's lives and affects the kind of balance of the world. That's what the song's all about, is this idea that something's just broke, something is, like I say, just made a little dent. And it's not, you know, your life hasn't been changed forever. You're not finding yourself out in the streets or anything like that. But the way that you feel and the way you look at things has just been changed. And it's so, so powerful. And what I think is so good about it as well is that it's sung completely without any of the assassins for the first time.

They're gone. And you just get to see the ensemble, who before always just, you know, they feature, they pop up here and there, but this is their voice and they're portrayed as the general public. They're the bystanders. They're the people that the audience can actually relate to. And that's why it really hits home.

[22:41] Tommy: In preparation for this, I listened to the two recordings you can listen to are the original one, the 1990 production, which has the blue cover with chalk stars on it, and then the Broadway revival in 2004, which has Slenderman pointing a gun at you. And the 2004 revival has something just broke, and the 1990, the song didn't exist yet. And I think this show is just incomplete without that song.

[23:09] Jimi: Completely and utterly. And I think that's one of the reasons why it failed. You know, the first production, I think it lasted for a couple of weeks of performances, and then it was done. It was off Broadway. It didn't do very well. The New York Times didn't like it, therefore it shut down. And I think one of the main reasons is because it didn't have this song. There was nothing for the people to bring them in.

[23:36] Tommy: Well, and the whole point of the show was, you know, I think it's in this prologue too. Yeah, so this preface was written in 1993, I think, so before the revival, by someone who was in the show. And they say, at the end of one of the performances, an audience member said to his companion, quote, I liked it, but who are you supposed to feel for? She replied, her eyes filled up with tears, us, you're supposed to feel for us. And that's absolutely true. Like you're supposed to feel for the American public.

[24:10] Jimi: But this whole exchange epitomizes why it was confusing in the original production, because there was no explicit number to tell you exactly you're supposed to feel you need something just broke the American public reacting to these things. So you have something to grip onto. And you're not just swimming in melancholy when you leave.

[24:29] Tommy: Well, I remember the first time I saw it was the really recent London one, with the one for Aaron Tveit, your favorite person to say.

[24:38] Jimi: Yep, yep. I avoid saying his last name at all costs.

[24:41] Tommy: Exactly. And also Mike McShane. Are you a Mike McShane fan?

[24:44] Jimi: I don't know who that is.

[24:45] Tommy: He was in Who's Line for a little bit.

[24:47] Jimi: Oh, no way. Wait, there's like seven versions of Who's Line.

[24:51] Tommy: I think he's definitely in the British one. I think he came over to the States. He's a really, really big guy.

[24:55] Jimi: Mike McShane.

[24:57] Tommy: Oh, yeah.

[24:58] Jimi: Yeah.

[24:59] Tommy: Very funny guy.

[25:00] Jimi: Really, really funny. He was playing Vic. And then there was also Catherine Tate, who's like a massive British comedian.

[25:06] Tommy: Oh, you know Catherine Tate?

[25:07] Jimi: Catherine Tate was in Doctor Who.

[25:09] Tommy: Of course. I keep forgetting.

[25:11] Jimi: Doctor Donna.

[25:12] Tommy: She was in it as well. She was playing Muir. And really amazing production, beautifully staged. Aaron Tveit had a beard, so you're fighting, you're winning. But that was the first time I'd actually ever seen it on stage. This was after the one that I directed, but obviously I'd never seen someone else's production of it. And when it got to Something Just Broke, I literally, I broke down and I wasn't expecting it. Because once I've listened to something for so long, I do kind of become, you know what I mean? I just do. And I broke down properly, because this was, it was just so affecting. You really understood what the whole show was about in that one song, which was amazing. And then what I thought was more powerful that I didn't even realize was an aspect of the show, is when they bring in the reprise afterwards, and when they all come back, you hate them. You literally, I was like, I was like scowling.

[26:07] Jimi: I think the various, you know, musicals are made of tiny little moments that create bigger moments. The transition from the end of Something Just Broke, like even when you just listen to the cast album, from that moment of silence, to then the plunky reprise coming back in, where just the underscore starts coming back in, and we're gonna sing this, everyone has got the right song. Really jolly, jolly, happy song. The lights are flashing, it's all colourful. But it's like, ooh, ooh, everything is burning.

[26:38] Tommy: And that is it. I was just, I was so angry. And I think what I love about that is that for all the things preceding that, you don't ever sympathize with them. You don't ever think, oh yeah, I totally get that. I would have done that too. But you get to see them as the humans that they are. It's like a little priest in Sweeney Todd. Like by the end of Act One, you're kind of like, okay, baking people into meat pies. Not a thing I do, but I understand.

[27:07] Jimi: You do you.

[27:10] Tommy: And then, because of Something Just Broke, you see them in this whole new light, because they're ignoring what, you know, Something Just Broke is about. They're ignoring this heartbreak, and they're just glorifying in their own kind of selfish needs. And you realize that no one's won here. Do you know what I mean? You've got nothing. People know who you are, but you haven't changed the world. You've just created all of this heartbreak. And it's just great. It was such a great theatrical feeling. I left really just being like, I love theatre. I love theatre so much. Because that's what it can do to you.

[27:48] Jimi: It's just effective. It's just like, really, and like, effective in the purest sense. Like, it affects you. Like, the show is written to make you feel things that are difficult to articulate completely.

[28:17] Tommy: I'll remember it forever.

[28:21] Jimi: And I thought, the president's been shot.

[28:24] Tommy: You know what? There are presidents who aren't worth a lot.

[28:29] Jimi: I kept thinking.

[28:30] Tommy: There's the kind that gets elected then forgot.

[28:32] Jimi: Mr. Garfield, he's a hack.

[28:35] Tommy: Bill McKinley, he's a joke.

[28:39] Jimi: Still, Something Just Broke.

[28:43] Tommy: The president is rallying.

[28:45] Jimi: The president is sinking.

[28:51] Tommy: The president is dead.

[29:03] Jimi: So, you've never seen a production of it?

[29:04] Tommy: I've never seen a production. I've seen plenty of clips online. I think the Tony performance. If you're starting in on the show and you need to listen to one, listen to the Orange Revival cast album with Neil Patrick Harris.

[29:18] Jimi: Neil Patrick Harris, before you knew he could do Broadway.

[29:20] Tommy: Exactly.

[29:23] Jimi: I don't know if this is his first Broadway show.

[29:28] Tommy: So, he was Toby in the concert version.

[29:32] Jimi: He was a replacement in Cabaret in 2003. And then in 2004, he did Assassins.

[29:40] Tommy: This is his first original.

[29:42] Jimi: I think this was definitely his break. He was

[29:46] ⚠ About 15 minutes of audio could not be automatically transcribed.

[44:39] ⚠ About 15 minutes of audio could not be automatically transcribed.

[59:32] Tommy: You killed the country, John, because of bad reviews.

[59:36] Jimi: So next we've got, let's say, Czolgosz. Czolgosz. Leon Czolgosz. Leon Czolgosz.

[59:42] Tommy: I really wanted to just hear you try and pronounce his name, because I know how much you love pronouncing names.

[59:46] Jimi: I'm so good with it. If Neil Patrick Harris didn't sing it a whole bunch, I'd be much more upset, and I'm still nervous about it every time.

[59:55] Tommy: Fair enough, fair enough. So he was an immigrant steelworker who assassinated Bill McKinley after meeting Emma Goldman, which also features in the show. Emma Goldman, weirdly popular in musical theatre.

[1:00:05] Jimi: Weirdly popular in historical American musical theatre. Go figure.

[1:00:08] Tommy: Exactly. She's an interesting character.

[1:00:10] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:00:11] Tommy: William McKinley was the 25th president of the United States.

[1:00:14] Jimi: Oh yeah, I don't know if we're doing this sequentially. I don't think we are.

[1:00:17] Tommy: We're not, but the show, it's worth noting, the show presents nothing sequentially.

[1:00:22] Jimi: That's true. So we're not going to be… what you should do is, when you edit this, just sentence by sentence.

[1:00:26] Tommy: Just put it all word by word. I'll just rearrange the whole thing.

[1:00:30] Jimi: And you work it out, okay. Yeah, so he met her and she was obviously a very radical anarchist and taught him all about social justice and the poor man rising up and taking back what's theirs. They were his motivations.

[1:00:45] Tommy: Yeah, also very politically motivated.

[1:00:59] Jimi: So I'm eating a cookie. More ASMR for you.

[1:01:18] Tommy: You call them cookies, not biscuits.

[1:01:19] Jimi: No, I'm calling them cookies for the American audience.

[1:01:21] Tommy: Okay, you would call it a biscuit.

[1:01:23] Jimi: For you Brits listening, it's a Jaffa Cake.

[1:01:26] Tommy: I know what a Jaffa Cake is.

[1:01:28] Jimi: Do you have Jaffa Cakes?

[1:01:30] Tommy: We don't have them, but I know what they are.

[1:01:32] Jimi: Well, well done you.

[1:01:35] Tommy: Do you have Oreos?

[1:01:37] Jimi: Of course we have Oreos. I guess it's a similar thing.

[1:01:40] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:01:40] Jimi: But we don't have like, you know, you have like 90 different types of Oreo.

[1:01:43] Tommy: Right.

[1:01:44] Jimi: We've just got like Oreo and double stuffed.

[1:01:46] Tommy: We have watermelon Oreos.

[1:01:49] Jimi: They'll stop it.

[1:01:50] Tommy: Wrap your mind around that.

[1:01:52] Jimi: Get out. Get out.

[1:01:56] Tommy: Awful. Anyway, Assassins.

[1:01:59] Jimi: Should we go for Guiteau?

[1:02:01] Tommy: Charlie Guiteau.

[1:02:02] Jimi: Played wonderfully by Dennis O'Hare in a revival.

[1:02:05] Tommy: I'm a big Dennis O'Hare fan.

[1:02:06] Jimi: They're all in the one between all of the productions of this, the original, all the revivals.

[1:02:11] Tommy: It's just it's like a laundry list of great people.

[1:02:16] Jimi: Yeah, totally.

[1:02:17] Tommy: Victor Garber.

[1:02:18] Jimi: Victor Garber.

[1:02:18] Tommy: Was that one of his first things as well?

[1:02:20] Jimi: I think so. I mean, he did a lot of stuff very, very young.

[1:02:22] Tommy: He was in Godspell very early on.

[1:02:26] Jimi: Was he?

[1:02:27] Tommy: I think he was Jesus in Godspell very, very early on.

[1:02:30] Jimi: No way.

[1:02:31] Tommy: I can remember vocally. I can see that.

[1:02:33] Jimi: Oh, I love. Oh, he was.

[1:02:34] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:02:35] Jimi: Like, like real early on.

[1:02:37] Tommy: He's in the movie Godspell.

[1:02:40] Jimi: Deborah Monk was in the original cast.

[1:02:42] Tommy: Terrence Mann, like all sorts of names.

[1:02:45] Jimi: And then you get to the Broadway revival with old MPH.

[1:02:50] Tommy: It just it's lovely people.

[1:02:53] Jimi: What a dream. Anyway, so we've got Guiteau.

[1:02:55] Tommy: Guiteau.

[1:02:55] Jimi: Who is like one of the comic relief characters in the show.

[1:03:00] Tommy: Yeah, one of the funniest actors. And what, I guess, what Weidman and Sondheim have done here is they've kind of taken his, because he's also one of the most insane of the bunch. And they've taken his, I guess, kind of insanity and played on that in a nice, like funny way, like, ah, look at the silly man with all these delusions of grandeur. Ha ha ha ha. And so he and he also gets one of the funnest numbers as well in the show.

[1:03:24] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:03:25] Tommy: So he assassinated James Garfield, who I don't know anything about.

[1:03:30] Jimi: James Garfield was the 20th president of the United States.

[1:03:34] Tommy: Okay.

[1:03:34] Jimi: Did he do it? Like, what was he?

[1:03:36] Tommy: He's one of the lesser presidents.

[1:03:38] Jimi: Okay.

[1:03:39] Tommy: There's a lot of them.

[1:03:41] Jimi: Okay.

[1:03:42] Tommy: But he personally offended Charles Guiteau. What Charles Guiteau did was wrote a completely stupid, garbled, incoherent campaign speech for James Garfield before he was elected president. And from that, he never used it or anything, but from that, Guiteau was like, I got you to be president. So do you want to make me the ambassador to France, please? And James Garfield was like, who are you?

[1:04:07] Jimi: I don't actually know if that conversation happened in real life or whether it was just the disillusionment.

[1:04:11] Tommy: I wouldn't be surprised if it has happened because Sondheim totes his historical accuracy.

[1:04:16] Jimi: Oh my god, there's so much historical accuracy, which is weird.

[1:04:19] Tommy: And not specifically about that one, but with a lot of other things. So I wouldn't be surprised.

[1:04:22] Jimi: He basically kills him because he's annoyed that he didn't get-

[1:04:26] Tommy: Ambassador to France.

[1:04:28] Jimi: Yes, which is absolutely nuts. And then Charles Guiteau himself got hanged.

[1:04:35] Tommy: And that's what the song is about, obviously. And he wrote, just to capture his craziness, he wrote a little song the day of the hanging called I Am Going To The Lordy, which he asked if he could get an orchestra for. It was turned down, surprisingly.

[1:04:51] Jimi: Surprisingly.

[1:04:52] Tommy: Who would have guessed? And so Sondheim, I love that little tidbit in Luca Meda where he's like, I've only ever used someone else's lyrics twice.

[1:05:03] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:05:04] Tommy: And one of them is to immortalise Charles Guiteau, and he uses this little ditty song that he sings as he cakewalks up to the gallows.

[1:05:33] ♪ Musical number ♪

[1:05:53] Jimi: So yeah, let's go on to Zangara, who is another nutjob.

[1:05:55] Tommy: Just crazy.

[1:05:56] Jimi: Absolutely.

[1:05:57] Tommy: And bless him, he- well, don't bless him, take that away, redact that comment. But so his assassination attempt was just thwarted from the get-go because he was short.

[1:06:10] Jimi: Yep.

[1:06:10] Tommy: He wanted to shoot Franklin D. Roosevelt, who was not quite yet president.

[1:06:15] Jimi: Is he the one that's an Annie or is that Teddy?

[1:06:17] Tommy: I don't know. I get them all confused.

[1:06:19] Jimi: Okay, he's the one in Annie.

[1:06:21] Tommy: Teddy Roosevelt is the one with the moustache.

[1:06:25] Jimi: Okay, cool.

[1:06:27] Tommy: I mean, I love it. So therefore, he was not an Annie because he has a moustache. Teddy Roosevelt is the one who you'll see riding a horse with a gun and goes, Bully!

[1:06:35] Jimi: Right, okay, cool.

[1:06:38] Tommy: He's in A Night at the Museum, played by the wonderful Robin Williams.

[1:06:41] Jimi: Okay, I've not seen that.

[1:06:43] Tommy: It's not a good movie. But yeah, there's another historical character who's featured in many a musical.

[1:06:51] Jimi: Yeah, it was too short, stood up in a chair. This was in Miami.

[1:06:55] Tommy: In Miami.

[1:06:56] Jimi: Was he doing a road show or something?

[1:06:59] Tommy: Yes, because he was giving a speech. Frank FDR was giving a speech.

[1:07:03] Jimi: Cool.

[1:07:03] Tommy: And Zangara was thwarted by five bystanders.

[1:07:07] Jimi: Yes, apparently every single one of them stopped him individually.

[1:07:12] Tommy: And they sing a song about it. And again, so this song, fantastic cultural look at the world. And again, more relevant now than ever, because it's all about media grabbing.

[1:07:23] Jimi: So this is a big problem I have. And do you know what? Something that was really highlighted to me with Orlando. I mean, with Orlando, that was the first kind of big thing that deeply affected me. I mean, I was really upset for many days, as many, many people were. But one of the things that I guess angered me about it was just seeing people fight over who could claim it. And I was just like, that ain't the point.

[1:07:54] Tommy: Who cares?

[1:07:55] Jimi: Exactly. These people have died and they are people.

[1:07:59] Tommy: Right.

[1:07:59] Jimi: What they are, who they are. The moment you start trying to find the like.

[1:08:05] Tommy: Yeah, it was very frustrating.

[1:08:07] Jimi: I find it so angry and upsetting. And that's kind of what this number. I mean, it's not about that. But it's what it talks about is this idea of people forget what happened. And it became about, oh, my gosh, it affected me in this way. And I was involved. It's all like, I know it. What an event. Oh, is this are we are we on the radio now? Is this live?

[1:08:29] Tommy: Exactly.

[1:08:30] Jimi: This is my husband. We're from there. And yeah, it was awful. And you see that you see everyone trying to like, oh, gosh, it involved me. You know, in the meantime, Anton Cermak is dying in hospital.

[1:08:41] Tommy: Anton Cermak, mayor of Chicago.

[1:08:43] Jimi: Well, they're chatting about how the band was fantastic. And you're just like, this is nonsense.

[1:08:48] Tommy: And it's it's very one. Sondheim says there were five bystanders. This like they didn't sing it, but this happened.

[1:08:56] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:08:56] Tommy: And then to know that this happened then and this happens all the time.

[1:09:01] Jimi: Exactly.

[1:09:02] Tommy: With our 24 seven news media coverage, people just wanting to get on TV to say their thing. It's just frustrating.

[1:09:08] Jimi: We take you now to a group of eyewitnesses who will tell us what they saw.

[1:09:12] ♪ Musical number ♪

[1:10:03] Jimi: Let's go to Sam Byck.

[1:10:04] Tommy: Yes, we've already kind of talked about. So don't need to go on about him too much. But yeah, he he wanted to hijack a plane was kind of crazy. He he has his monologue is the have it your way monologue, right?

[1:10:16] Jimi: Yes, exactly. So he actually he doesn't he doesn't have like a solo song in the show. He's got two really, really long monologues. All very seeped in. This is another thing that makes the show very real to me. Like they they don't talk about like, I'm going to go eat a hamburger. He's like eating a Whopper from Burger King.

[1:10:36] Tommy: There there are name brands throughout this whole thing, which, of course, it's real.

[1:10:41] Jimi: It's real, but also it's American. Do you know what I mean? And that's what gives it that stamp of this is America.

[1:10:47] Tommy: Well, and even just his like the fact that have it your way is a slogan of a burger chain in America, because of course it is because we're America. You can have your hamburger however you want it. That's something we embody.

[1:11:02] Jimi: But what happens when you can't have your hamburger the way you want it?

[1:11:08] Tommy: You kill a president.

[1:11:09] Jimi: Right, which is part of his thing that should not be brought into it. Interesting tidbit. Have it your way is in our slogan for Burger King.

[1:11:19] Tommy: I wonder. I don't know if it's our slogan anymore. It's definitely it's definitely permeated the culture enough that I could say have it your way and people be like, oh, yeah, Burger King.

[1:11:30] Jimi: Because, yeah, because I remember the first time I listened to it, and he was like, have it your way, have it your way. I was like, what's that?

[1:11:35] Tommy: Yeah, very, very, very American.

[1:11:39] Jimi: Yeah, American. So he's got two great monologues. Really good if, you know, people out there are interested in audition pieces.

[1:11:45] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:11:46] Jimi: Great audition pieces. Wonderful. Pick. I would always pick the second one because it's more of a story.

[1:11:52] Tommy: Next time you're auditioning for Jimmy, you know which monologue to pick now.

[1:11:55] Jimi: Yes, you do. Have it your way. Have it your way. You know what my way is? Hot. How about a hamburger that's fucking hot? Don't blame me. I'm from Massachusetts.

[1:12:10] Tommy: You want to talk about the gals?

[1:12:12] Jimi: Let's talk about the ladies.

[1:12:14] Tommy: Oh, man. Sarah Jane Moore. It's really funny. Just to pause. I was just about to say, I love these two. What is this show? You can't see that. But they're really entertaining.

[1:12:26] Jimi: It's so entertaining. Like that's that is that is the paradox of this show. Sarah Jane Moore and Lynette Squeaky Fromme. Little Squeaky. Both attempted to assassinate President Gerald Ford completely separately from each other.

[1:12:43] Tommy: Two weeks apart.

[1:12:45] Jimi: Didn't know each other, had nothing to do with each other.

[1:12:48] Tommy: Also different views as well. Like they weren't, you know, going for the same battle.

[1:12:52] Jimi: Totally different kinds of crazy. But in this show, because we live in limbo, they just hang out with each other and chat. And what I think is actually one of the funniest scenes I've seen in musical theatre.

[1:13:03] Tommy: Absolutely. This is like up there with the producers, my friend. Like, I love the scene. Like directing the scene was a treat because it was so full of comedy.

[1:13:14] Jimi: Yeah. In fact, both of their scenes are great. But scene six in particular.

[1:13:19] Tommy: Stunning.

[1:13:20] Jimi: Yeah, they get high together and they chat about their lives and how they're kind of not what they expected. So Lynette Fromme is one of the Manson family. And apparently it turns out she was one of the most devoted of the Mansons. I don't know whether she's getting that title because she tried to assassinate Gerald Ford. That was her.

[1:13:40] Tommy: Sarah Jane Moore, I think is actually the most interesting.

[1:13:43] Jimi: Why do you say that?

[1:13:44] Tommy: Because she's the most ordinary. And she's also the only one that's still alive today. Which, again, is really interesting.

[1:13:51] Jimi: I don't think she's dead yet.

[1:13:53] Tommy: I don't think Squeaky's dead either.

[1:13:55] Jimi: No, she's on parole.

[1:13:57] Tommy: Oh, is she?

[1:13:59] Jimi: Watch out.

[1:14:00] Tommy: Maybe she's listening.

[1:14:01] Jimi: Hi, Squeaky.

[1:14:03] Tommy: Hey.

[1:14:04] Jimi: Do you think what do you think?

[1:14:05] Tommy: Wow. So she's out on parole in 2009. Do you think she knew there was a musical she's in?

[1:14:11] Jimi: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, Sarah Jane Moore, she's out. She's out as well. She's been on. She's been interviewed since. And she talks about how she regrets it. Do you know what I mean? She talks really openly about, you know, if she could go back.

[1:14:25] Jimi Hendrix: I wouldn't have done it. And it wasn't just because, oh, I got put in prison. It's because she was like, no, I was disillusioned. You know what I mean? My mind had been warped. But yeah, what I find so interesting about Sarah Jane Moore, basically, you know, she had four kids. I think she had like five marriages that all failed. She'd worked all these different government jobs and just nothing was working. And because of that, she decided to just get into radical leftist politics. And to make a big statement, she decided, well, I'm going to assassinate Gerry Ford. And this was, I think, one of the prime examples of it could happen to you kind of thing. She just got to the end of her tether and was like, I'm just going to do this now.

And obviously kind of seeing her now, her being like, wow, I was so in it. You know, she hasn't got a clinical diagnosis. This wasn't pathological. This was just political. And that's what's real scary, real, real scary, real, real scary. But the pair of them are great. They're great. Their scene is just like that. It makes you uncomfortable. And then we've got Mr. Hinckley. Crazy is that moth again? Crazy, crazy.

[1:15:40] Tommy: And that is crazy. We're talking out and out. Yeah. So John Hinckley Jr. attempted to assassinate Ronald Reagan so that Jodie Foster would notice him. And that is it. That's it. That's the reason. There was no like, and he was also being told by this group to do this. No, this was self-motivated because he became obsessed with Jodie Foster after watching Taxi Driver, which is also really creepy because she's like 16 in that movie. And has a real, real creepy, pretty song written by Stephen Sondheim, Unworthy of Your Love.

[1:16:14] Jimi Hendrix: Oh, the song. Oh, my gosh. Right. It's like, out of context, a very pretty love song.

[1:16:20] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:16:21] Jimi Hendrix: A very pretty love song.

[1:16:23] Tommy: Nice kind of proper, almost like 80s style ballads of love. Then in context, when you know their backgrounds, it's terrifying. And it is. It's this idea of obsessive love. That's what both him and From, who's the other person singing the song, had. They were just so blindsidedly in love with their counterparts that they would do anything and they tried to. Just insane. Interestingly, Sondheim in writing the music for Unworthy of Your Love makes a mistake intentionally. I'm not well versed in music theory, but so I'm told, and you can hear it if you listen to it, because the assumption is John Hinckley wrote this song himself and isn't the best musician, he would make a mistake. And so if you listen to the beginning chord progressions, like the first set of chords, I think it's the third set of chords, is wrong. It's not what it should be or like one of the notes is wrong.

[1:17:22] Jimi Hendrix: Yeah. Because he that's just it's real. It's so interesting because there's not a show note in the script to say that. You just have to work it out for yourself. And I remember Dan, who was my MD, my best bud, best bud, Dan, you sometimes listen. I think he thought, like, oh, that's probably the reasoning for it. Because we did have a live guitarist on stage. And yeah, how great is that? What a great little Easter egg.

[1:17:48] Tommy: It's wonderful. I mean, in reading the stuff Sondheim writes about this, I don't know whether this is wonderful or scary, but he seemed to struggle the least in writing this show than in any of the other Sondheim shows I've read details about. It feels just very like tick box, tick box. Like it sounds like they talked about it for years and then just kind of vomited it all out.

[1:18:11] Jimi Hendrix: Yeah.

[1:18:12] Tommy: And then it happened. Normally, when you're writing a show, you work together and you go over, right? What have you done? What have you done? Blah, blah, blah. Sondheim didn't read the scripts until he finished the musical. What's that about? Especially a script like this. They collaborated without even talking with each other and had a general sense of the structure and what happens in what scene, but the specific stuff. And here we are saying it's one of the most complete shows.

[1:18:35] Jimi Hendrix: Yeah.

[1:18:36] Tommy: What is that magic? Absolute theatre magic.

[1:18:39] Jimi Hendrix: I am nothing.

[1:18:43] Tommy: You are wind and water and sky.

[1:18:50] Jimi Hendrix: Jodi, tell me Jodi, how I can earn your love.

[1:18:58] Tommy: I would swim oceans. I would move mountains. I would do anything for you. What do you want me to do?

[1:19:12] Jimi Hendrix: I am unworthy of your love. Jodi, Jodi, let me prove worthy of your love.

[1:19:27] Tommy: Tell me how I can earn your love. Set me free. How can I turn your love to me?

[1:19:41] Jimi Hendrix: Oh, then I guess we've got Lee Harvey Oswald.

[1:19:44] Tommy: You guess we've got. I mean, he is the linchpin of this story.

[1:19:49] Jimi Hendrix: He is, and done in such a great way. I think, I don't know if it's about Sondheim musicals, but he does a twist really well.

[1:19:55] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:19:58] Jimi Hendrix: Not necessarily like, oh my god, plot twist, just like, convention twist.

[1:20:02] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:20:03] Jimi Hendrix: Into the Woods, end of act one, or Sondheim's part with George, end of act one. It just goes whooshing.

[1:20:11] Tommy: Yep. And this one is just wonderful.

[1:20:13] Jimi Hendrix: Right.

[1:20:14] Tommy: And horrifying, like, you know, great from a musical theatre construction standpoint, and then in context, terrifying. So originally, Lee Harvey Oswald was a separate character, and he came in after they all sang another national anthem together and kind of rallied themselves up and travelled through time. And he was a separate character. What they did in the revivals, and I think any other production that I've seen, or directed, has done the new thing, which is to make the balladeer Lee Harvey Oswald. And whether that is he has always been Lee Harvey Oswald, or whether that is it's just a pure case of just pure doubling, or whether it's some sort of transformative thing, it works.

[1:20:56] Jimi Hendrix: It works very well.

[1:20:57] Tommy: It works really well. It makes a lot of sense. And Lee Harvey Oswald, at least in this case, is cast somewhat as a reluctant assassin, at least at the beginning. In the original script, and I think this gets pared down when he transforms, he wasn't, like, John Wilkes Booth performs a magic trick, basically, to give him a rifle.

[1:21:19] Jimi Hendrix: Yeah. And no, it's the exact same.

[1:21:21] Tommy: Is it? Okay.

[1:21:22] Jimi Hendrix: In the future. Yeah.

[1:21:23] Tommy: Yeah. John Wilkes Booth is like, what do you have in that package over there? And he's like, some curtain rods.

[1:21:28] Jimi Hendrix: Curtain rods.

[1:21:28] Tommy: And Booth is like, look again, and it's a gun. And he's like, what the hell is going on? And, you know, I mean, you do, you suspend that disbelief. You don't really care, because you don't really need to know the motivation to see this part. You know, I mean, this is just everything coming together. And what I think is really interesting, and I don't know if this is still true, there's obviously so much conspiracy around Lee Harvey Oswald, and nobody still knows his motivations. Obviously, he died before he could ever be—

[1:22:00] Jimi Hendrix: He was shot.

[1:22:00] Tommy: Yeah. There's that picture, isn't there? Like, of that. Like, he was shot, unintentionally is the wrong word, but like, he was shot by a member of the public.

[1:22:12] Jimi Hendrix: Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. It was almost assassinated, in a way.

[1:22:15] Tommy: He was assassinated, yeah. And there is so much, obviously, because everyone loves the conspiracy theory, because JFK is so huge, the amount of conspiracy theory, like, that was like the birth of the conspiracy theory, almost. And that, I mean, that's part of the success of this scene, and of the whole thing, is like, it's predicated on your previous knowledge.

[1:22:38] Jimi Hendrix: Yeah.

[1:22:38] Tommy: You know, they don't spend a lot of time in exposition explaining who these people are, if you know already.

[1:22:45] Jimi Hendrix: Yeah.

[1:22:45] Tommy: It's like Lee Harvey Oswald.

[1:22:47] Jimi Hendrix: Yeah. Do you know what? That's actually a really interesting point, because I think, in America, that would fly, but over here… So, when we did our first show, people left, and they were like, yeah, all right, didn't really understand it, but, you know, it was, like, good fun. And I was like, whoa, okay, you just said it was good fun. We'll be going back and working that out. And they were like, yeah, I didn't really understand who anyone was. And I was like, right. So what we did for the second night was give a cheat sheet, basically. Of who the people are. Here they all are. And then, like, literally, that night, people were like, oh my god, you know what I mean? They got it.

[1:23:20] Jimi Hendrix: Well, because Lee Harvey Oswald's scene is structured to be the twist scene, to be the reveal. Like, he doesn't… I'm trying to find it here. They don't say his name for a long time.

[1:23:35] Tommy: That's true.

[1:23:36] Jimi Hendrix: You know, it's the Texas Book Depository, so if you know your stuff…

[1:23:39] Tommy: If you know…

[1:23:39] Jimi Hendrix: Like, they give you the hints, but slowly. And then Booth says Lee a couple times, but just sideways. Um, and then, you know, they call him Lee just a couple times. And then at one point…

[1:24:00] Tommy: Where is the part about? What's it with these…

[1:24:02] Jimi Hendrix: So yeah, it's when they do the call out into the audience to hear all of the other assassins who have joined them. And then he's like, yeah, what is with all these goddamn assassins and their three names? And he's like, Lee Harvey Oswald! But it's like, it's that moment where that's the turning point. That's when Lee Harvey Oswald realizes not only does he have three names, but he is an assassin. And that it could be him. Like, that is when he gets convinced. Well, obviously, there's then the big Italian speech. But that's when he's like, okay, I could do this. And then they just tell him, why you should do this? Because this is what is about to happen. And a really great little bit with the Italian.

[1:24:36] Tommy: It's wonderful.

[1:24:36] Jimi Hendrix: So they have… Yeah, thank you. And all the other assassins, basically, pleading for Lee to do this to legitimize them.

[1:24:46] Tommy: Yeah, to immortalize them in history.

[1:24:49] Jimi Hendrix: And they tell them all of the things that happened as part of the fallout of JFK's assassination. That is when you really realize how big this thing is. Do you know what I mean? And how important and significant.

[1:25:01] Tommy: Yeah, there's a great moment where Booth turns to Hinkley and asks him things like, you know, what was Lee Harvey Oswald's dog name? And like all these random facts. And Booth says when after they arrested Hinkley, they found in his house every book about you ever written. Absolutely nuts. Like, it's heavy. And I think that's like, if you ask people outside of the US, name a person that got assassinated, they'd say JFK or they'd say Lincoln. But I think the first one they would come to would be JFK. And, you know, I mean, I didn't even know half the others before we did the show.

[1:25:37] Jimi Hendrix: Nope, I listened to the show.

[1:25:38] Tommy: Like, I'm sure a lot of Americans don't even know the full details. The goal of the show is like, shoot a president and you'll be recognized.

[1:25:45] Jimi Hendrix: Yeah.

[1:25:46] Tommy: And for Lee Harvey Oswald, at least, that worked.

[1:25:51] Jimi Hendrix: Which, you know, it's not a good moral.

[1:25:55] Tommy: It's not a good. That was the question I had. I wrote this down. Um, I feel like this is a musical. This is an amoral, anti-call-to-action musical. Like, most, all, every single musical theater show I listen to has like a, and you, audience member, when you go home tonight, careful the things you say children will listen. Or remember to love another person is to see the face of God. Or whatever they offer you, don't feed the plants. There's that moral of the story at the end of the day.

[1:26:30] Jimi Hendrix: Yeah.

[1:26:30] Tommy: The moral of the story in Assassins is maybe everybody has a right to their dreams. But it's not like, they're saying everyone has a right to their dreams. So you can kill a president too.

[1:26:44] Jimi Hendrix: Yeah.

[1:26:46] Tommy: Which is not, I don't think, you know, clearly it hasn't led to an uptick in assassinations. And no one's yet to blame Sondheim's Assassins. Like, well, I went to see Assassins and then, you know, shot the president. That thing. And I think now, because you have Something Just Broke, I don't think you ever could. I think before, it was kind of, it's almost like a rallying cry. Like, yeah, because you didn't have that moment of, and this is what happens when you do it. It's a case of like, we're immortalized.

[1:27:15] Jimi Hendrix: Yeah.

[1:27:15] Tommy: If you had someone who was a little bit screwless in that original audience, I mean, that's dangerous stuff. And the Something Just Broke was implied in it all, but it was still just implied.

[1:27:24] Jimi Hendrix: Yeah, completely.

[1:27:25] Tommy: And that's the thing is now, because the last song, the last thing they say is, everybody's got the right to their dream. You almost just put a little negative in there, a little contraction of everybody's not got the right to their dream. Because of how you feel about them. It's the difference between everyone can achieve their American dream and everyone should achieve their American dream.

[1:27:49] Jimi Hendrix: Exactly.

[1:27:50] Tommy: Which is such, oh, it's chilling.

[1:27:53] Jimi Hendrix: Somebody help me!

[1:27:54] Tommy: Per favore, ti prego, ti supplico.

[1:28:01] Jimi Hendrix: Please, we beseech you.

[1:28:03] Tommy: Noi siamo disperati.

[1:28:05] Jimi Hendrix: We are the hopeless ones, the lost ones.

[1:28:08] Tommy: Viviamo la nostra vita in esile.

[1:28:10] Jimi Hendrix: We live our lives in exile.

[1:28:12] Tommy: Rimpatriati nella nostra terra.

[1:28:14] Jimi Hendrix: Expatriates in our own country.

[1:28:16] Tommy: Siamo portati sin dalla nascita, disperandoci, inconsolabili.

[1:28:22] Jimi Hendrix: Inconsolable.

[1:28:23] Tommy: Ma, attraverso le tue azioni, possiamo sparare.

[1:28:29] Jimi Hendrix: We dare to hope.

[1:28:30] Tommy: Attraverso le tue azioni, revivendoci, dandoci senso.

[1:28:35] Jimi Hendrix: You and your act, we are revived and given meaning.

[1:28:38] Tommy: Ognuno della nostra vita e della nostra azione diventano significativi.

[1:28:44] Jimi Hendrix: Our frustrations fall away.

[1:28:50] Tommy: I nostri sogni profondi diventano vele.

[1:28:52] Jimi Hendrix: Our fondest dreams come true.

[1:28:54] Tommy: Oggi, today, attraverso te, siamo rinnati.

[1:28:59] Jimi Hendrix: We are reborn through you.

[1:29:03] Tommy: We need you, Lee. Without you, we're just footnotes in a history book.

[1:29:08] Jimi Hendrix: Disappointed office seeker.

[1:29:10] Tommy: Deranged immigrant.

[1:29:11] Jimi Hendrix: Vainglorious actor.

[1:29:12] Tommy: Without you, we're a bunch of freaks.

[1:29:14] Jimi Hendrix: With you, we are a force of history.

[1:29:17] Tommy: We become immortal.

[1:29:18] Jimi: So, I wrote down this phrase that I read somewhere a long time ago about this musical that I wanted to ask you about. I heard someone describe this musical as a docu-musical, like it's a documentary. And the connotation with that is there's a subset called history studies where you study how we tell our history, which is contractually obligated, very Hamilton in construction. But the history you learn, the history we tell each other, the history we're stuck with, is not factual. It is a construction we've made. Like, if you look at life right now, while there are a lot of reasons for a lot of things, most things just kind of happen randomly or haphazardly. Like, they could go any way, and there's not the same kind of through line, not like as solid of a through line contemporarily as we draw when we talk about things like the Renaissance, when we give the Middle Ages, when we term these portions in history and try to draw lines through them.

It's not saying that we're doing history wrong, it's just acknowledging that we're retelling a story comprised of things we think of as facts. And so, this is a docu-musical as opposed to fictionalized history or dramatized history. This is just a selective retelling of historical events to evoke a certain through line. And I think there are arguments on both sides, but—

[1:31:21] RL: Yeah, I think so. That's a really interesting point. Because I guess it isn't, you know, it's not the same as something like Ragtime.

[1:31:27] Jimi: Right, which is historical fiction.

[1:31:30] RL: Yeah, and in a similar way, it's expansive. Or it's not even the same as Hamilton, or 1776.

[1:31:39] Jimi: Yeah, uh-huh.

[1:31:40] RL: Where, like, 1776 is an explicit—like, the through line in 1776 is like, start at the beginning and end at the end.

[1:31:47] Jimi: Yeah, exactly.

[1:31:48] RL: Or even with Hamilton, which then tries to draw these connections. But this one very specifically non-linearly retells the story.

[1:31:56] Jimi: Yeah, and I think it as well, like, it uses history to give a meaning, do you know what I mean? To give them a message, which is exactly what a documentary does in a way. It takes bits and bobs and pulls all together. It's like an essay.

[1:32:10] RL: Yeah, exactly. It's like an essay, but still very much with the purpose of, like, telling you about these things.

[1:32:17] Jimi: Yeah, it's a story still.

[1:32:19] RL: Yeah.

[1:32:19] Jimi: But the story isn't—yeah, it's a docu—yeah, I think that's great. I like that. A docu-musical. That is one of the things that makes it very unique to me, because I can't think of another thing like it.

[1:32:30] RL: No, that's it. It has a kind of formula, because I think there is a formula to it.

[1:32:35] Jimi: Yeah, well, it's a review. I mean, that's what, in his one-sentence description—

[1:32:40] RL: Yeah, that's very true.

[1:32:41] Jimi: His notion sometimes says, a book musical masquerading as a review featuring nine of the 13 assassins who have attempted to kill the President of the United States. And that description, a book musical masquerading as a review, is beautiful.

[1:32:54] RL: Yeah, exactly, because that is what makes a good review. Do you know what I mean? There's nothing worse in my head than a song cycle.

[1:33:03] Jimi: That is, you know, I think this—yeah, it is, because all the songs are completely separate from each other. They all have different musical motifs.

[1:33:10] RL: But it's still like, if you threw all these people into a bar together and watched them interact with each other, which is not—

[1:33:17] Jimi: I mean, that's literally a scene in the show.

[1:33:19] RL: Right, exactly. Which is not that absurd of an idea, but it's not explored in other pieces of musical theatre.

[1:33:27] RL: That's the thing, if you take something like Songs for a New World, I'm sure I'm going to get shot now, well, to use a pun, for slandering Songs for a New World. But the reason that isn't as great is because it doesn't have that unifying factor.

[1:33:43] Jimi: Yeah, and this musical is so much more than the songs in it and the scenes in it.

[1:34:44] RL: Well, and that's one thing I wonder, as, like, seeing a production of Assassins not in America, what was your sense of audience reactions, or when you have seen it, does it feel like—like, do you leave, like—when I read Assassins or listen to Assassins, I think, wow, the world is a scary, terrifying place. When you see Assassins, I would— I wonder, and I don't want to put the thought too much in your head, but is it closer to like, wow, America is a scary place?

[1:35:15] RL: Yeah, it's definitely America, and that's—it's a very American show, in many ways, because it's—like you said earlier, there's a thing that's quite specific to America. Yeah, definitely, when you leave, we can feel a great sense of detachment from it. We still get hugely emotionally affected by it, but not in the sense like, oh, it's not going to happen on my doorstep. You know, I don't feel scared coming out of it, I just feel harrowed. I'm like, what horrible things happen in the world? So yeah, it's a really interesting—but I think, because any time it's been done in the UK, it's been hugely successful, which is a weird contrast to the States.

[1:36:47] Jimi: That is really interesting, and I wonder if—I wonder if that's why, because I would—I think one of the things that makes Assassins a difficult show to produce in America is because how real and close it feels, and like, you know, there are pieces of art you take in once, and then you don't need to put them back in your mind because they affected you enough, and you don't want to go through that psychological trauma again. And I wonder if, for some people, Assassins falls into that category.

[1:36:57] RL: It falls into that category. Yeah, I know, I wonder.

[1:37:22] Jimi: Whereas, like, Across the Pond, it's, you know, it's us, it's your neighbors.

[1:37:27] RL: Yeah.

[1:37:28] Jimi: There's a distance to it.

[1:37:29] RL: Because that's true, like, there's been so many, like, films—I go to films, actually, more than musicals. But like, yeah, something like 12 Years a Slave, I'll never watch that again. I don't need to. It's scarred me.

[1:37:41] Jimi: The Boy in the Striped Pajamas.

[1:37:44] RL: Boy, yeah, exactly. Saw it once, done. But there's, like, there's pieces of art like that, where you get it, and then you don't need to get it again.

[1:37:53] Jimi: Exactly. I have been affected. So yeah, I wonder if that is the case in the States. Like, when I listened to it, after Orlando, and after Brexit, it was therapeutic.

[1:38:04] RL: Yeah.

[1:38:05] Jimi: And I wonder, would that be a good thing for people to see at the moment?

[1:38:09] RL: I mean, it's certainly—I would wager, personally, that America does have a gun problem. And if there's a musical about America's gun problem, it's Assassins.

[1:38:20] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:38:22] RL: You know, it speaks volumes that after Orlando at the Tony Awards, they pulled the guns out of the Hamilton number.

[1:38:30] Jimi: Right, completely.

[1:38:30] RL: Like, that was the symbol of solidarity that that number pulled. And it was effective, whatever your opinion on guns. And I wonder, like, if a really good director went in with almost, like, that being the focus, because that could easily also be the focus. Could they do something interesting with that? It's about American politics, and we're in a ridiculous American political season.

[1:39:01] Jimi: That's it. Like, you know, I mean, I feel like we need something. We need a Ragtime. We need a— I say we, but you know what I mean? Like, we need an Assassins. Maybe not a 1776.

[1:39:09] RL: Right. This is where, like, I think you've certainly felt it. I know I have certainly felt it, but there—I even today questioned whether or not we should be talking about Assassins.

[1:39:22] Jimi: I know. I completely agree with you. I completely—and when, again, when I was, like, doing my notes and things today, I was just like, oh, is it sensitive? Is it—

[1:39:32] RL: Right. And, like, you know, I went to a gay bar last night to listen to music with my friends, and it is all still a whole new experience knowing that 49 people were shot in a gay bar in Florida a couple weeks ago. Like, we live in a new and interesting world, and there are two reactions to tragedy, either, like, hide it or stare deeper into the void so we can deal with it. Like, that was the solution I came to in my mind about whether or not we should talk about this show because whether or not this is explicitly or implicitly related to these things, it makes me feel the same things. And so then it doesn't matter how much it's related. And I do feel, this is what I'm preaching to the choir, but art like this, important art, makes us stare into this tragic void in an effort to spur us to do something or to think about it or even just to keep it on our minds so that we remember it. And I feel like in the same way that The Laramie Project did wonderful things—

[1:40:35] Jimi: Oh my gosh, what a great example.

[1:40:37] RL: —out of an awful tragedy. If you are an eloquent artist out there who is feeling moved to write something about this, please.

[1:40:45] Jimi: Tommy, I can't agree with you more. This is the time. This is when things need to get written about. This is when it's so raw, and there's so much that we can talk about. And it doesn't need to be reported. It doesn't need to be snapshotting what's happening now. It's capturing this feeling that we have.

[1:40:59] RL: The feeling, the moment, whatever it is. Because we, like, if you're listening to Jimi and I right now, I hope you can feel how much we are struggling to articulate the things we feel.

[1:41:11] Jimi: Gosh, yeah.

[1:41:12] RL: Because we live in a world where, like, us specifically in a world where we express ourselves through the musical theatre. And like, we express ourselves through these complex pieces of art that spur difficult-to-grasp feelings. And we've reached a point where we have the difficult-to-grasp feeling, but not the art to experience it through.

[1:41:26] Jimi: Completely. Completely and utterly. It's like, I've never really felt like this before. I don't want to sound wanky about it, but like, I feel this is when I've realised that, oh wait, art is important. Art's an important thing, because it is therapy. I've never had that before, where I've, like, had to console myself. Do you know what I mean? Like, this has been a whole new thing for me. And it just so happened that I found that consolation in art.

[1:41:59] RL: Yeah. In, I mean, in musical theatre.

[1:42:02] Jimi: In musical theatre, yeah, exactly.

[1:42:05] RL: No joke, no metaphor. I would have been in a different mental space had the Tony Awards not continued that day.

[1:42:13] Jimi: Oh my gosh, Tommy. Like, how much—and that, do you know what I mean? Oh, I can't believe it. We've not even—this is post-Tony's, this podcast.

[1:42:20] RL: Yeah, this is post-Tony's.

[1:42:22] Jimi: But that evening was perfect. Like, I just—you have to give your soul to the Broadway community, because they did it wonderfully.

[1:42:28] RL: And they understand.

[1:42:34] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:42:35] RL: Like, they understand the hurt and the feelings and—

[1:42:38] Jimi: And that was the thing, like, that night, you could see it wasn't a gay thing. Do you know what I mean? They weren't coming from a—gays love musical theatre, so, you know, I mean, it was a—this is, like, a horrible thing to America and to the world. Do you know what I mean? And we're all just gonna love, do you know? And it was just— that's all it was. It was just so much love. Ah, and it was amazing. It was so perfect. And God, do we need it, like—

[1:43:01] RL: Yeah, like, please, you know, that it's—right now it's the only thing we have, it seems like.

[1:43:09] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:43:10] RL: The one— the one stable thing in my life is musical theatre.

[1:43:13] Jimi: I know.

[1:43:14] RL: Which is a weird place.

[1:43:15] Jimi: I don't want to scroll through my timeline, and I don't want to scroll through Reddit and look at that, like—

[1:43:19] RL: Nope.

[1:43:20] Jimi: I want to just go and listen to shows and—

[1:43:22] RL: Yep.

[1:43:23] Jimi: That—try, you know what I mean? Try and work it out. You know, the whole— the whole world in a bunch of different, perhaps unrelated, but still contemporaneous ways feels unsurmountably depressing right now.

[1:43:35] RL: Exactly. Exactly.

[1:43:36] Jimi: So let's all kick line or something.

[1:43:39] RL: I think so. I think let's get some Spangles on our backs and do the Chorus Line finale, and we'll all be happier.

[1:43:47] Jimi: Go listen to some show tunes. Yeah, put on your Sunday clothes.

[1:43:52] RL: Haul out the holly. Put up the tree.

[1:43:54] Jimi: That's right. And yeah, listen to some musical theatre. Listen to this show. I think listen to this show.

[1:43:59] RL: Listen to this show. Listen to your other shows. Listen—just find your escape.

[1:44:05] Jimi: Go to it.

[1:44:06] RL: Go to it. And next week we'll do something a little happier.

[1:44:12] Jimi: I think so. I think that sounds good.