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[0:01] Jimi: Well, cheers! Cheers! Happy 50th, my friend. Happy 50th! Here's to at least 50 more.

[0:10] Tommy: We're gonna be doing this till they stop making musical theatre. Oh my god, can you imagine?

[0:17] Jimi: I don't know what I'd do. And even then, though, we've still got a huge back catalogue, so...

[0:22] Tommy: Do you think we'll ever catch up? What, to musicals? What, as in, like, we've done them all?

[0:29] Jimi: Well, as in, like, you know, we joke around about, like, when we're gonna reach the, you know...

[0:35] Tommy: The scraping of the barrel. Yeah, exactly.

[0:37] Jimi: Well, I've got a list here. Subways are for sleeping.

[0:42] Tommy: Seven. There's seven more musicals we can do. At least six. At least six, actually.

[0:48] Jimi: So this list's about 1,400, but I have a feeling there's many, many more.

[0:56] Tommy: But College Board, it takes us two years to get through 50, so 25-ish a year.

[1:03] Jimi: Yep. But also, we've been more consistent. That's fine. So at what age will I be?

[1:09] Tommy: About 86. Yeah, that's doable. That's totally doable, 86.

[1:14] Jimi: Welcome to German Tomics Musical Theatre. Where am I?

[1:18] Tommy: It's time we're going to talk about that old favourite, Dear Evan Hansen. It's been a popular choice for a while now.

[1:28] Jimi: I like that your old man impression is also a Southern American.

[1:32] Tommy: Yes, exactly. I guess that's how everyone sounds, though, when we get to that age.

[1:38] Jimi: Yeah, that old age. Yeah, I'm pretty sure.

[1:39] Tommy: Are you gonna move to Georgia when you retire? Open a...

[1:43] Jimi: Oh, I would love that. Open a plantation. I don't think you would.

[1:47] Tommy: No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't. You can always depend on the kindness of strangers.

[1:52] Jimi: What's that from? I don't even know. Is that Streetcar?

[1:56] Tommy: It's either Streetcar or Glass Menagerie. It's in that, like, bucket of plays I had to read in college bucket.

[2:03] Jimi: Yeah, because I think it is Streetcar. And again, the only reason I know that, classic German Tomic trope. Wait, wait, let me guess. You saw it on The Simpsons. You can always depend on the kindness of strangers to back up your troubles and keep you from danger.

[2:18] Tommy: Now here's a little thing you won't regret. A stranger's just a friend you haven't met.

[2:25] Jimi: You haven't met. Streetcar!

[2:29] Tommy: What if our 50th episode, we don't talk about a musical, it's just us babbling to each other?

[2:33] Jimi: I know, it's like, sorry, guys. Oh, no!

[2:40] Tommy: We interrupt our program to bring you this important message.

[2:44] Jimi: So interestingly enough, we've had a couple of emails recently from people who have been asking how they can support the show and help us out a bit financially. So we have decided to start up a Patreon? Question mark?

[3:02] Tommy: Question mark? No, we have. That's a decision.

[3:05] Jimi: Patreon. Downbeat. Obviously, like, zero pressure here. It's just some people have said that there's something they want to do. The best satisfaction, the best gift you can give us is to listen to the podcast.

[3:21] Tommy: Yes.

[3:24] Jimi: And you're doing a really good job of that so far.

[3:27] Tommy: A plus so far. Don't change that up. Yep.

[3:32] Jimi: But if it is something you're interested in, then if you hop on over to patreon.com slash JimAntomic, you'll find us over there. And as an extra special 50th treat, hey, if you want to stick around at the end of this podcast, you'll maybe hear something brand spanking new.

[3:51] Tommy: We're trying something new. We're being daring.

[3:53] Jimi: Question mark? We are.

[3:55] Tommy: You'll have to find out. You gotta listen to us babble about the musical for several hours before that happens.

[4:01] Jimi: Yes, indeed. Or I guess it's just on your phone. You could skip ahead right now. But don't do that. That's no fun.

[4:06] Tommy: Exactly. We know you love the babbling.

[4:12] Jimi: And here's our secret. No.

[4:14] Tommy: Yeah, exactly. But anyway, shut up, Tommy.

[4:19] Jimi: On with the show. On with the show.

[4:24] Tommy: A very special welcome to JimAntomic's Musical Theatre Happy Hour, your weekly podcast with box steps and birthday cake vodka.

[4:34] Jimi: Woo! Why is it birthday cake vodka?

[4:38] Tommy: Because it's our birthday! Or what did you say? Annabirthary?

[4:43] Jimi: Annabirthary? Bertha Annary?

[4:45] Tommy: Annabirthary. Yeah, it is our 50th happy hour. I can't believe that.

[4:51] Jimi: That's amazing. We've talked so much.

[4:55] Tommy: By the way, yeah, we've talked for a lot of hours.

[4:58] Jimi: Yeah. And people have listened to that.

[4:59] Tommy: And thank you, everyone, for keeping us in your ear holes. This birthday cake vodka shot is for you.

[5:08] Jimi: Good job. Well done.

[5:09] Tommy: It wasn't birthday cake vodka. I could not do it.

[5:12] Jimi: We wouldn't make it. We wouldn't make it through the podcast.

[5:15] Tommy: I would barf.

[5:17] Jimi: Speaking of, Jimmy, what are you drinking today?

[5:20] Tommy: Well, today, Thomas, I am drinking milk straight from the udder of a cow.

[5:28] Jimi: Oh, there's a little bit of hair in there. That's a bit disgusting, isn't it?

[5:33] Tommy: A weird sort of blood-like irony aftertaste.

[5:37] Jimi: This is a strange little improvisational scene you're doing there.

[5:43] Tommy: Are you trying this out for the fringe? Is this going to be your one man show?

[5:46] Jimi: Yeah, exactly. Drinking.

[5:50] Tommy: I'd go see it. That's for sure.

[5:51] Jimi: Thank you. Thank you very much. Always supportive.

[5:54] Tommy: What are you drinking?

[5:56] Jimi: I'm drinking wine that is close to the family.

[5:59] Tommy: Very good. Very good.

[6:03] Jimi: Did you just search for any, like, liquid sort of...

[6:07] Tommy: No, I've been preparing that joke for 50 episodes, Jimmy.

[6:11] Jimi: Well done. I'm proud of you.

[6:13] Tommy: It's the pinnacle of my comedy. It's all downhill from here.

[6:17] Jimi: It's all downhill from here. Oh, God.

[6:21] Tommy: No, I'm joking.

[6:23] Jimi: Well, what could we possibly be talking about after that cryptic nonsense?

[6:28] Tommy: What could it be?

[6:30] Jimi: Our listeners know now is the point where you read the quiz question.

[6:33] Tommy: They do. They do indeed. And a few people got this one.

[6:36] Jimi: So people have been watching Side by Side with Susan Blackwell.

[6:41] Tommy: So the Tony award-winning leading actress in this show who we've...

[6:46] Jimi: I was going to say met. I'm going to put that number to commas.

[6:50] Tommy: Seen and stopped in her tracks and kind of looked at each other desperately. Um, well, she auditioned for the show with a ballad, Tommy.

[6:58] Jimi: Yeah, the ballad was, What did I have that I don't have from On a Clear Day You Can See Forever.

[7:04] Tommy: And when asked if she had an uptempo, she said, No, but I can sing this one five times faster.

[7:10] Jimi: And so she did and got the part. What show?

[7:16] Tommy: Jimmy, I'm so excited.

[7:18] Jimi: It's Into the Woods.

[7:19] Tommy: Once upon a time.

[7:24] Jimi: In a far off kingdom.

[7:28] Tommy: Lived a fair maiden, a sad young lad.

[7:31] Jimi: And a childless baker.

[7:35] Tommy: With his wife.

[7:54] Jimi: Here we are, Tommy.

[8:03] Tommy: We're in the woods at last.

[8:06] Jimi: I think if you add it up already and we're, you know, adding into that bucket, like pure amount of time I've spent talking on the internet about this show.

[8:16] Tommy: Oh, my gosh.

[8:17] Jimi: It's the top of the bar graph.

[8:19] Tommy: This was your first video?

[8:21] Jimi: This was my very first. This was the idea that started Musical Theatre Mash.

[8:26] Tommy: Oh, my gosh.

[8:27] Jimi: Was minute-ish Into the Woods. And the crazy thing about that was usually with the minute-ishes after that, I had to like rewatch them and like think through them. The Into the Woods one, I like wrote in six minutes. Like it was there.

[8:41] Tommy: Yeah, boom, done.

[8:43] Jimi: And you know, I've rewatched it a couple times and a lot of my old videos don't hold up. But that one, I'm still pretty proud of.

[8:52] Tommy: That's good, as you should be.

[8:55] Jimi: I'm proud of my first one, even though I wrote it in my very first evening. Put it in the show notes.

[9:02] Tommy: Absolutely.

[9:03] Jimi: It'll be a birthday bursary gift.

[9:05] Tommy: Oh, how cute.

[9:07] Jimi: Just a really self-indulgent gift. By the way, so obviously the actress we were talking about previously just there was naturally Tony-winning Joanna Gleeson.

[9:19] Tommy: So Jimmy and I, when we met in real life for the first time going to see, pour one out, Natasha P. and I, Comet of 1812.

[9:26] Jimi: I would pour it all over this mic.

[9:27] Tommy: After our amazingly crazy night in New York and seeing each other and going through and watching this beautiful show that we knew so many things about, we leave the theater and we're walking back to our Airbnb and Jimmy like tugs on my sleeve. And I'm like, what's happening? And he has this like look on his face and he's looking forward. And in front of us is this tall, dark figure wearing, in my mind, the most beautiful cloak in the world.

[9:54] Jimi: It was as if she's just like put on Pierre's cloak and walked out into the New York street. And she was just floating there. And Jimmy was like, do you know who that is? And I like couldn't quite see. And he was trying not to intrude. And he was like, that's Joanna Gleeson.

[10:10] Tommy: Yeah.

[10:11] Jimi: It was just like that. You know that moment where you're like, you're just still, you couldn't move. And we'd also seen Leslie Margarita and Lindsay Mendez that night.

[10:19] Tommy: Because everyone was out seeing the show.

[10:20] Jimi: Everyone was out seeing the show. I couldn't believe it. I was just like, New York. Well done. You do it again, kids.

[10:25] Tommy: We didn't say anything because I don't think you were allowed. We did the thing where you do nothing when you see a famous person. You just freeze.

[10:32] Jimi: It's like seeing a bear.

[10:36] Tommy: I don't know if that's the appropriate reaction to seeing a bear, but it feels like it is.

[10:41] Jimi: Apparently bears, you make noise.

[10:42] Tommy: I think bears big and noise. That's what you want. You know, the number one rule with Joanna Gleeson is if you don't bother her, she won't bother you.

[10:49] Jimi: Exactly.

[10:50] Tommy: You will be safe.

[10:52] Jimi: So Into the Woods, as if it needs a preface.

[10:57] Tommy: Anyway, music and lyrics by that old chestnut, Mr. Stephen Sondheim.

[11:01] Jimi: That is how you pronounce it.

[11:04] Tommy: And the book by Mr. James Lapine.

[11:07] Jimi: Mm hmm.

[11:08] Tommy: Premiered in 1987 on Broadway with some out-of-town tryouts before that. Had 10 Tony nominations and only won three.

[11:18] Jimi: Do you know why it only won three, Jimmy?

[11:20] Tommy: Because of Phantom of the Opera.

[11:24] Jimi: Yes, I know. Silly Phantom.

[11:27] Tommy: The 80s were weird, though, Tommy.

[11:28] Jimi: People just weren't. They didn't have their heads screwed up properly.

[11:30] Tommy: No, the 80s were fine. Andrew Lloyd Webber was weird. Anyway, that's another podcast.

[11:35] Jimi: Never mind. Anyway, oh, oh, the moment. Anyway, yes.

[11:40] Tommy: So it then had an extremely long lived life where it went on a really good tour, like a really successful tour around the States. It opened up in the West End in 1990.

[11:53] Jimi: It was then revived in the West End. Interesting. I always find that it was revived first in the West End. I feel like that never happens.

[11:57] Tommy: And it wasn't very good.

[12:02] Jimi: Anyway, it was revived with Vanessa Williams in 2002. And then had a recent revival in 2010 in the West End.

[12:13] Tommy: And is that the outdoor one?

[12:15] Jimi: That is the Regent's Park open air production, which then I think crossed across the pond. And they did a Central Park production, which I guess is unclear whether that counts as a Broadway revival or not, but it's still fantastic.

[12:28] Tommy: I actually don't know if Regent's Park is counted as a West End theatre.

[12:32] Jimi: That's a good question. I bet you neither of them are, because you don't hear of the Central Park being nominated for Tony's, which is usually the Broadway delimitator.

[12:41] Tommy: And likewise, oh, no, it does get nominated for Olivier's, but Olivier's is probably different.

[12:46] Jimi: Who knows? Anyway. And then, of course, the 2014 Disney film adaptation.

[12:52] Tommy: We were treated to a film of Into the Woods.

[12:55] Jimi: Which is crazy. And I babble about it for like 40 hours in another YouTube video.

[13:01] Tommy: Yes, you do.

[13:03] Jimi: As so many people do. There's lots of opinions about that film.

[13:08] Tommy: But right. What on earth is Into the Woods?

[13:11] Jimi: Does anyone know? Into the Woods, Act 1 is all of your favourite fairy tales and how they all took place at the same time. And Act 2 is after Happily Ever After, where everything goes wrong.

[13:27] Tommy: That's how I describe Into the Woods to people.

[13:28] Jimi: I've got it down to like two sentences.

[13:30] Tommy: That's good. That's very, very good.

[13:32] Jimi: That's the show-run vibe.

[13:35] Tommy: Yeah, exactly. There's some new stories in there of the baker and his wife, who were just created for the show. And yeah, it's about getting your Happily Ever After and then kind of facing the consequences as to how you got there.

[13:49] Jimi: Yeah, that's a good way to put it. It's also, I would say, the base underlying content of Into the Woods that everyone seems to blow right past because it's so simple, is that in your life, you must go into the woods. You must do something dangerous or scary or that you don't want to do to get the thing that you want.

[14:11] Tommy: And I would say the moral of it is, even if you do that and get the thing that you want, no one's story ends in book covers.

[14:19] Jimi: And so life continues with journeys into the woods. And sometimes that ends well, and sometimes that ends poorly. Sometimes it's unfair which way it ends.

[14:30] Tommy: Yeah, and you will always go back into the woods for whenever and ever.

[14:35] Jimi: Yeah, okay. This is going to be a long podcast, by the way.

[14:39] Tommy: Just to let you know.

[14:40] Jimi: If you say that, we'd even muster 50 minutes.

[14:42] Tommy: Yeah, watch it. It'll be like 20 minutes. It'll be like, oh yeah, well, that's it. Into the woods. See you next week.

[14:53] Jimi: And, you know, I've been listening to it for centuries. I feel weirdly unprepared because I'm like, I just don't know what the hell. Do you know what I mean? I feel a lot of low-level pressure.

[15:03] Tommy: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I hate that. I hate pressure. I hate musical theatre pressure. That's something that definitely exists. See, when this is like your biz, people expect things.

[15:10] Jimi: Yeah. You know. And like, we're still just two blokes on the internet, but...

[15:20] Tommy: Oh, bloke. Great use of bloke. Thank you. I'm trying to pick up- you use so much American vernacular. I'm trying to pick up a little more.

[15:24] Jimi: I think you're 50 episodes in.

[15:28] Tommy: Yeah, I really appreciate that. I'll get one more in the next 50 episodes. Thank you. Maybe I'll start talking about something that's twee. Anyway, let's get into it.

[15:37] ♪ Musical number: "Giants in the Sky" — performed by the Original Broadway Cast of Into the Woods ♪

[16:31] Jimi: Okay, so on our journey through the woods, let's get right into the meat of it and talk about, I guess, you know, every time we do a Sondheim, I feel like I always say this, but is it some of his best writing? Probably. I mean, I think, you know, I don't pick favorites. Into the Woods is very high up there on my Sondheim list.

[16:54] Tommy: Yeah. Do you not feel like it's just a bit of a staple?

[16:58] Jimi: Yeah. Like, you're like, oh yeah, Woods. It's the one that you would be like, oh God, yeah, of course, Woods. It's so solid. And I do think one of the big reasons it is, and we don't, we're, you know, we're musical theatre people, but we're not terribly music people, I would say. Not that we don't know music, not that we don't do music, but we often have other things to talk about.

[17:15] Tommy: Yeah. But especially with Into the Woods, the thing to look at, one of the things to look at, especially if you love it, are Sondheim's use of theme throughout. And I do think, yeah, I think I'd say that Into the Woods is Sondheim's best use of character and story theme and motif in his corpus.

[17:40] Tommy: Yeah, I would, yeah.

[17:42] Jimi: Yeah, I would, I would 100% agree.

[17:48] Tommy: Yeah. I think as well, just because it's such an ensemble cast, there's so many opportunities to use leitmotif and to dot it around.

[17:58] Jimi: I've already heard three people in my head tell me that that isn't the case, and it's not his best, but that's, I would agree with you. Because I can pick them out very easily.

[18:11] Tommy: Yeah. Do you know what I mean? I mean, if it's not his best, it's certainly his most accessible.

[18:16] Jimi: Exactly. And so, like, you can go through, you know, there are easy ones, like the cow theme.

[18:22] Tommy: Yes.

[18:23] Jimi: Which happens certainly during the milking scene, but also happens when Jack is, or when Jack's mother is singing about selling the cow.

[18:37] Tommy: It happens. The prince.

[18:38] Jimi: The prince theme. And then, of course, I think the one, if you're going to write your mini thesis about this, you've got to follow the bean theme throughout this show.

[18:49] Tommy: The bean theme. Yes. Can you give us a rendition of the bean theme? You know the bean theme for when, it is most exposed when the baker gives Jack five beans, saving one for himself, and it goes bump, bump, bump, bump, bump.

[19:01] Jimi: Or, during my high school production, where the second percussionist was maybe not the most musically inclined, it went bump, bump, bump, bump, bump, and I'm Jack staring at the baker, both trying not to laugh, because I'm selling, oh god, it was a travesty.

[19:21] Tommy: No! That's the worst thing. They weren't magic beans, those ones.

[19:29] Jimi: No, those were the dud beans. But so you... Imagine if they just then followed that theme throughout the rest of the show, instead of like, dee-dee-dee-dee-dee-dee-dee-dee-dee. It was just like dee-dee-dee-dee-dee-dee-dee-dee.

[19:40] Tommy: I think that'd be fun, like, improv musical theme. Whatever the xylophonist decides right there.

[19:46] Jimi: That's it. It makes sense. But yeah, it's... You hear it everywhere.

[19:54] Tommy: Everywhere. You really do. You really, really do. Almost anything to do with the witch, it's in there somewhere.

[20:03] Jimi: What I kind of put it to, right, or like make it akin to, is the ring in The Lord of the Rings.

[20:11] Tommy: Yeah, that's a good...

[20:12] Jimi: Because it is... The beans are the MacGuffin in this show, right? We start with the yellows, whites, milk, the capers, reds, blood, the hairs, yellows, corn, the slippers, gold, but they're done by act one. But the beans, spur, they, you know, put the witch in her place, which is what starts the story. The beans are important.

[20:31] Tommy: Yeah, they exist before the action of the play, during the action of the play, and hey, we know that they will exist after the action of the play. And into the woods too, they'll find a bean and everything will go wrong, do you know what I mean?

[20:41] Jimi: And like, you know, we were joking earlier about how much we've listened to this show. I've been listening to it in the car a bunch just to prep for this, and there are still times where I'm like, oh, there's the bean theme. I didn't notice that one.

[20:49] Tommy: Like, the one you just did, the terror theme, the... That's really obvious, never struck me.

[21:04] Jimi: Things like the beginning of, I guess, this is goodbye old friend. And then, fantastically, all of your fault is the bean theme. In different inversions and different, you know, rearrangements.

[21:23] Tommy: Which is, of course, the perfect place for the bean theme to come to a head, because it's all about the beans.

[21:28] Jimi: It's literally like the bean number.

[21:36] Tommy: Yeah, yeah. And it's like, if they made a good musical of Lord of the Rings, they would have like a ring, it'd be like that. It'd be a similar kind of thing.

[21:44] Jimi: And it is. I love, though, that it is just infused, because you never forget about the beans, and you're never supposed to forget about the beans, because they're so integral.

[21:56] Tommy: Yeah. Like, what a strange thing that they're so integral to this whole show. If the beans weren't involved, nothing in the show would happen.

[22:02] Jimi: Yeah. Well, and it's such a dense, and you know, it's an ensemble show, everyone has an important part, and it's all about the interplay.

[22:14] Tommy: And so, nothing is extra, and not in the millennial sense of extra, but in the actual sense of extra. But they try and trick you, like in the beginning, where it's like, you know, I found these beans! Oh, we'll take them with us! You know, five beans in exchange for my cow, you'll be lucky enough to exchange her for a sack of beans!

[22:39] Jimi: Like, seems like silly throwaway stuff, and then when Cinderella gets the bean and is like, oh, this is silly, like, and you, if you've never seen the show, you think nothing of it until it becomes a problem.

[22:48] Tommy: Exactly. And it is, it's one of those moments as well, you think back and you're like, oh my god, yes! She did throw away the bean! That caused everything!

[22:59] Jimi: Yeah, it's really, really cool. To me, that's one of the exciting things about this show, and it happens with the beans, and happens with the story, and I think, you know, with a show like this, save for the baker and his wife, you know all of the stories beforehand.

[23:15] Tommy: And they take advantage of this all the time. Like, even in the massively multiplayer prologue, the narrator says, but the witch refused to tell him any more of his sister, not even that her name was Rapunzel.

[23:30] Jimi: And immediately, you've built Rapunzel! Oh, it's Rapunzel! Of course it's Rapunzel! I've seen all these fairy tale characters! We're gonna meet Rapunzel later! She's gonna be up in a tower with hair! Like, I got it! And that's the witch! It's Rapunzel's witch! And like, they play on these jokes all the way through.

[23:45] Tommy: Exactly.

[23:46] Jimi: Yeah, and as well, I think that was one of the interesting things that Sondheim kind of had to use dramaturgically. So he talks about this quite a lot in finishing the- oh no, look I made a-

[24:02] Tommy: Look I made a pink one!

[24:03] Jimi: Yeah, see, I don't have the colours, Tommy! Remember, I just have to rely on the title.

[24:09] Tommy: That's all right, I'll send you little stickers, you can put them on the front.

[24:14] Jimi: Thank you, just pink and blue. But he talks about this quite a lot, where a lot of the changes from San Diego to Broadway, or even just from writing to San Diego, where him being like, I'm just telling the story. Do you know what I mean?

[24:34] Tommy: Yeah. People know this story.

[24:36] Jimi: And he briefly talks about this. And actually, there's a really interesting book called Into the Woods, which is a book about stories. And it's actually for people who write screenplays.

[24:50] Tommy: Okay.

[24:51] Jimi: I read it because for writing stage plays. I was like, oh, the book! The novel version, the novelization. It's probably up there somewhere. Doesn't matter.

[25:04] Tommy: Yeah, so I read it for that. But basically, yeah, it's just about kind of storytelling, where that comes from. You know, so many people talk about, oh, this is how you write a story. There's these seven points that you need to hit, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[25:18] Jimi: And it kind of throws that all out the window. And it looks to the root of the thing, which Sandi kind of talks about, about the fact that, you know, in some ways, these stories are like, epigenetic. Do you know what I mean? It's not just an American thing. It's not just a British thing. They have the same stories in ancient China. They have the same stories in Africa. It's everywhere.

[25:36] Tommy: These ideas are everywhere.

[25:46] Jimi: So he really doesn't need to spend time telling these stories to an audience because you get it. It's so much a commentary on the idea of telling these stories. You know, the fact that at the end of every day, every character comes out and has, here is my moral for the day.

[26:08] Tommy: And here is my moral for the day.

[26:09] Jimi: And like, that as a whole, we're saying a lot about the idea of telling the story. And then you intertwine that with the baker and baker's wife through line of, you know, children and careful the things you say children will listen and storytelling as a diegetic moral giving kind of form. It blends together in a really fascinating and harmonious way.

[26:36] Tommy: Yeah.

[26:37] Jimi: And like as well, the fact that we know these things, it means that we can actually get to the root of the thing and think about why are these characters doing things? You know, what are the choices that they're making? You're not just thinking about, oh, you know, Jack went up the beanstalk. Oh, and then he ran away, stole some things and climbed down and chopped. You're thinking about why did he do that? What did he get from that?

[27:02] Tommy: Why did Cinderella keep running away?

[27:05] Jimi: And actually, again, really, really interesting. I didn't know this. I've never read a translation of the Grimm's fairy tales.

[27:09] Tommy: The Cinderella.

[27:10] Jimi: Yeah. And so apparently, it's just a Disney thing that the whole kind of midnight happens and it's like the stroke of midnight turns into a pumpkin or whatever. In the original Grimm's Brothers, she actually just can't decide whether she wants to live at home still or whether she wants to elevate herself to that stage.

[27:35] Tommy: So I'm like, that's the story I want to read.

[27:40] Jimi: Yeah. I mean, I want to find that human decision, not this fantasy thing.

[27:45] Tommy: Yeah.

[27:46] Jimi: And so that's what that's what they've chosen to tell.

[27:52] Tommy: Yeah. And that's what it's it's so interesting, the stuff they don't actually specify in the musical Into the Woods, because it's not Cinderella doesn't need to be home by midnight. We have this big, like, you know, there's so many midnights and we talk about midnights and we use the word midnight to actually mean day and like how many days it takes. But she just happens to be running.

[28:15] Tommy: But because we have these established tropes and established fairy tale stories, and we're like, oh, yeah, it's running because, you know, because midnight.

[28:18] Jimi: Yeah. You got to turn into a pumpkin.

[28:25] Tommy: And before dark.

[28:26] Jimi: Yeah, exactly. She gets given a dress.

[28:31] Tommy: Yeah, exactly. She's turned into a princess magically.

[28:34] Jimi: Yeah.

[28:35] Tommy: I just find that really, really interesting.

[28:36] Jimi: Yeah, there's there's I mean, it's one of those we could we could do a whole podcast on, you know, this line or this musical theme. We could be here for forever.

[28:43] Tommy: Just the simplicity of the cow is white as milk. The cape is red as blood. The hair is yellow as corn. The slipper is pure as gold. Number one, that sounds straight out of a fairy tale. It's not. James Lapine and Stephen Sondheim wrote it.

[29:02] Jimi: But two, the first time you hear it and then the second and the third and the fifth time you hear it right then. So you remember it as an audience member. They do a really good job of being like, hey, audience, this will be important. But you're like, ah, cape is red as blood. Probably Little Red Riding Hood. Ah, cow is white as milk. Probably Jack. Ah, slipper is pure as gold. Probably Cinderella. Ah, hair is yellow as corn. Like, you put it together long before the baker and his wife figure out.

[29:25] Tommy: So we're in a Columbo mystery, not a Murder, She Wrote mystery.

[29:31] Jimi: Yes, exactly. The old mystery troll.

[29:36] Tommy: Yeah, no, completely. And I think that's really nice because in Act One, that's what Act One is all about. It's about being, you know, you don't need to be led anymore. You've got it. You're in control. Things are going well. Things are happy.

[29:41] Jimi: Yeah. But then everything changes in Act Two and you don't.

[29:46] Jimi: Actually know what's happening and the woods have changed and it's very dark. And that's such a nice way to kind of play with the audience because you do, you go into, you finish Act One in Into The Woods and you're like, great, hang on, I've got another hour and a half. Okay, that's interesting. Because you've got no idea what can happen next. But I find it really cool that I think everyone is obsessed with that after ever after, like what happens, what happens next? And we always love to fantasize and think like, well, you know, did they get on okay? I don't think anyone, us as humans, we would never be at peace with happily ever after.

[30:28] Tommy: Yeah, absolutely. You know, we always think what happens next. Jimmy, I think you should hold on to that thought because I have lots of thoughts about that.

[30:36] Jimi: About what?

[30:38] Tommy: About after ever after.

[30:40] Jimi: Excellent. Have you seen the John Cozart videos?

[30:45] Tommy: No.

[30:46] Jimi: Okay.

[32:09] Tommy: So, Act One ends with ever after.

[32:17] Jimi: Yes.

[32:18] Tommy: My whole life is about how do you improve musicals? And Into The Woods is absolutely one of my favorite musicals. It is not without problems. I think—

[32:31] Jimi: A hushed silence went across the world on that day.

[32:34] Tommy: I know. And I think you'll agree. I think one of the big difficulties in either staging Into The Woods or in the construction of Into The Woods is its two-act structure and ending Act One with ever after. Basically a song called The End that everyone assumes to be The End. And, you know, it's a joke I make way back in that first video. Act One ends and half of the audience leaves because they think the show is over and it might as well be. And I do think this is a structure problem.

[33:08] Jimi: Okay.

[33:10] Tommy: I think there's, you know, this should have been fixed out of town.

[33:18] Jimi: Right. So, well, okay. Hit me with your remedy.

[33:22] Tommy: Well, so as it stands right now, there are two and only two things that let you know that Act Two is going to happen outside of the sign in the lobby that says intermission is 15 minutes and Act Two is an hour and a half, which I think should not be what gets the audience to come back. The two things that tell you is, um, into the woods and out of the wood to be continued and happily ever after, which no one ever hears because it's covered by this big orchestral crescendo and it's still in time. We don't like take a fermata or railroad tracks there. And somewhere in there in the stage directions, we're supposed to see the next beanstalk rise. And I think we're relying a lot on a background piece of stagecraft right there to let the audience know that Act Two is going to happen.

What audience member is going to be sitting there and thinking, huh, that thing. I wonder if that means there's more to this story. You know, I think you're asking a lot for your audience member right there.

[34:34] Jimi: You, you, you, you seem disagreeable about that.

[34:39] Tommy: I do. I think I do because I think that's, I think that is actually the whole point. I don't think it's, uh, um, like, Oh God. I think from the outset, they were like, this is a two act show.

[34:54] Jimi: Yeah.

[34:55] Tommy: Act One is this and Act Two is this. And they are separate. Well, not separate things, but they are two very distinct things. And I think that is the full intention. And I can't see any other way of, of doing it. I can't see you kind of starting Act Two at the end of Act One or, you know, uh, vice versa. I think it would feel weird and it would, it would make the show seem a bit jilted.

[35:31] Jimi: Because what I think is really, really cool about it is, and this is something actually, so I, full disclosure, full disclosure, um, I co-directed this. My pal, Julian, who's a big fan of the show. Hey, Julian. Shout out to you. Um, and, uh, what that was, this is one of the things that we really, really toyed with is how do you set this up? How do you set up that there's going to be a change? Do you know what I mean? We're doing, uh, you know, I think it's a kind of classic song time thing of it's Act Two, get ready for something a bit different, you know what I mean? Night music, we go into a whole different setting. Uh, Sunday in the Park with George, we jump forward, however, God knows how many years. Poor comparison, but yeah.

[36:16] Tommy: Yeah. Right. Exactly. And then this, it's like, you know, you're getting a whole different show. So, you know, we did the whole, you know, the beanstalk group at the back. It was essentially, everyone looked at it as if to say, look, no, please don't. Um, and we played around with the, the narrator kind of not expecting the end to happen at this point, um, because his story ends and then there's more happening. Do you know what I mean? It's like, it's like you get to the end of your book and you see the start of the next sentence, but it doesn't go anywhere. It's like that kind of ending. You're like, hang on, is there a part two that I can't, you know what I mean?

[36:50] Jimi: Right. He spends, he spends the first half till he dies, basically looking for the next part of the book. And it's like a bit of a surprise for him.

[37:00] Tommy: Yeah, exactly. Um, so that's how we, we did it. I think that's successful. I, I think, so I think there, cause I don't think it would be like, and happily ever after. And then you go into like, once upon a time later and do that beginning and then have it. I think that that doesn't fix it. And that totally messes with the, the, the gist of the show. I think it's like the, in my mind, it's an easy fix and I wish it was in the score. Um, like, uh, into the woods and out of the woods, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And happily ever, boom, beanstalk grows. Narrator goes to be continued and happily ever after. Like do the thing you did. Everyone pointed the beanstalk, like everyone look at the beanstalk, have the narrator fricking ride the beanstalk up. Like, what a fantastic event.

[37:54] Jimi: Um, yeah, I guess, but isn't that just then down to the direction? Cause I'm going to, I'm going to look and see if it's a pause. I've got my score right here. Yeah. Um, and I'm going to look and see if it's paused. Cause I'm sure it is. Cause we did.

[38:05] Tommy: Yeah. I don't think it's as written. I think it's a good directorial choice and I think it still falls into that gray area of as the author's intended. I think the original Broadway doesn't do it well.

[38:19] Jimi: Um, I think it's, I know what you mean. It's like too behind and too, it's easy to miss and you need people to come back. Act two of the show is important.

[38:32] Tommy: Yeah. I mean, I do wonder, I'd be interested to know if there was any statistics. Um, well there's no pause here.

[38:42] Jimi: I don't have the full orchestral. I'm telling you it's not written in and that is an oversight that should be fixed. You know, put it in the score, make it official, make it, make it the word of God, the actual God stage direction. The stage direction is a giant beanstalk emerges from the ground and stretches to the heavens. The characters are oblivious to its presence.

[39:02] Tommy: See, and oblivious to its presence. We're not allowed to look at it either.

[39:07] Jimi: Exactly. You know, James Lapine doesn't want you looking at that.

[39:10] Tommy: Yeah, I know. No, I do know what you mean, but no, I'd be interested to know about like the statistics of the people who left. If anyone actually leaves it in a mission. Because you'd be stupid. Cause you'd be like, where's Bernadette's song? I'm sure she was supposed to sing a big song in act two. Um, but I think there are other things and I don't know how to play these up, but like the things that do come back, the witch losing her powers, the mysterious man dying slash disappearing, the baker's wife being pregnant, like those are the things you can point at with maybe larger blinking arrows to be like, Hey audience, don't you want to know how this pans out? Um, and like, those are things in ever after, like especially the witches in the stepmother's verse, like, you know, we were unhappy and we don't get to be happy and we're unhappy now unhappy, hence unhappy ever after.

Like if you phrase those a little bit about like, you know, how does our story end? What happens next? Like one or two word flips there can still lead you into the next thing and tease that kind of ever after.

[40:20] Tommy: Um, so that's it. You don't want it to be as full stoppy. You want it to be more question marky. Maybe actually go back and kind of dabble a bit. Just give me one or two, you know, Cinderella throwing her bean over her shoulder level, like a couple of things here and there, but yeah, less full stoppy.

[40:30] Jimi: But then what would into the woods junior do?

[40:35] Tommy: Oh God, we could burn it. Um, no, it's a wonderful thing. Stephen Sondheim has done and we should let children do these. And when we talk about our little world, we can talk about that too.

[40:46] Jimi: Well, let's talk about, uh, the, the, the optional bits of this show, the optional bits. So right, this is something, and I'm going to go back to my production of it. I had like a fight with Julian. Julian's one of my best friends. So I'll happily talk about this on the air, eat Hollywood stories, whatever it's called. Um, but yeah, we had proper fights about this cause he loved the alternate lyrics and I was like sacrilege.

[41:07] Tommy: So are we talking the end of steps of the palace?

[41:13] Jimi: We're talking, we're talking everything, but for the moment we'll talk about witchy stuff later because I've maybe I've come round. Okay. But, um, yeah, so the, um, at the end of, on the steps of the palace in the land of the giant, in the belly of the wolf.

[41:31] Tommy: Yeah. Yeah. Obviously it's in the palace, a great Belty note then for your cinders, but, um, yeah, it's, it's the, basically they, they all come in together and you realize, ah, they're all, they've all learned the same. Here you go. Here's a metaphor and it sounds great. It sounds really cool.

[41:48] Jimi: Yeah.

[41:49] Tommy: Um, even though I think it does sound stilted because it's like, and song stops in the land of the giant and it's a bit like, okay, cool. Um, but and I also kind of get why, because it's kind of playing to maybe an audience who might not have picked up on the fact that there's this recurring. It's like, this is how I've experienced my change based on the bit of the story that you know already.

[42:11] Jimi: Yeah, exactly. So I think it's a bit force feedy. I think it's a bit like here we all are together, but also it then isolates Baker's wife.

[42:23] Tommy: Yeah. Also has her learning and also kind of, I dunno, it isolates those three characters.

[42:31] Jimi: Yeah. And I feel like it's not just them.

[42:40] Tommy: Yeah. Well, that's, that's the big, ah, this is the wonderful thing of this show, Jimmy. And maybe there's a better way to do it, but I think every character has their important character change moment in this show. Every single character. We see four of them in song. Um, I don't think we see the witches character transformation decision in song because she gives up, right? I don't, I don't think we quite see the Baker's character transformation in song. We see what leads up to it. We have no more in act two, but I think he's still wrestling with it. And like, just at the very end of it, it's like, like father, like son, no more giants. Like that's it. But he doesn't have a whole song about it.

[43:24] Jimi: Um, and he's at the, he's the last one to do it too, which I think is important. But then we see the main three, Cinderella, um, little red and Jack in act one. And then we see the Baker's wife have her, I've changed song in act two. And she's the only one to have one in act two by my logic. And I think there's something interesting about that.

[43:44] Tommy: Okay. I don't know if in the belly of a wolf is the way to do that.

[43:52] Jimi: Um, yeah, well, I just think it's, I feel like that then it kind of, it puts a full stop on that though, those stories, if that makes sense.

[44:06] Tommy: Um, and you don't really open yourself up to the fact that there's more people that are going to go on journeys, because I do think, I think it's a completely dramaturgical choice, the order of who, who learns when, um, do you know what I mean? I think it completely, completely is. Um, [44:22] so, you know, maybe save it for the end of no more. And then everyone can repeat the dead wife comes back. It's the sort of thing where I wish there was one more, like the, the, we went through a change music theme motif.

[44:39] Tommy: Ends each of these and becomes a little more subtle, becomes less baseball bat over the head, but we can put it at the end of those three, at the end of, you know, What Was That? and at the end of No More. And I mean, another thing as well, that I think it makes No One Is Alone quite odd, because you've linked Jack, Red and Cinders together as almost children, do you know what I mean? It's almost like, these are the kids and the baker and his wife and the witch are the parents. Whereas in No One Is Alone, that then kind of gets blurred. Because Cinderella is a parent.

[45:18] Jimi: Yeah, she's a parental figure there. And she's using her slight age on little Red to have that conversation. Whereas they've already been linked as this teenage discussion. So I just think it creates some issues. It sounds great.

[45:38] Tommy: Yeah, it does sound great. And it's very stirring. And you're like, oh, cool, the themes. There's a lot of things about the 2002 Broadway revival I don't enjoy. That's one of the things I do enjoy, but I have issues with, you know what I mean?

[45:52] Jimi: Yes, I know, exactly. Because it's like, love it, hate it, but love it. Okay, go on. Do you know what I mean? It's that kind of thing. There is something about it. The 2002 revival absolutely did like, well, we need to do everything different. Let's make sure it's different.

[46:07] Tommy: And I think this was part of that spurring.

[46:10] Jimi: Yeah, for sure. But that's fine. That's okay. I'm okay with it. Now, there's a couple of other things I'm reading here. And I'm gonna, I just want you to tell me about your, I wish, bum. What do you think about the last I wish in this show?

[46:31] Tommy: I find it really difficult. I find it very difficult. Because it's, I don't, so I love, one of the things I really love is like audience psychology. And like, the fact that you put a button at the end and everyone just, it's just like, oh, right, that's important before you even realize. But with Woods, they do a stilted button. And it will affect the reaction your audience has. And I don't doubt for a fact that this has happened since San Diego to, you know, Rochester High School's production that's happening next week or something. Like, it just, it's like, oh, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. And it's like a polite applause. Into the woods and out of the woods, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. And home before dark. I wish, blimp. Like, you've got like three buttons there.

[47:23] Jimi: Yep.

[47:24] Tommy: Which is hard.

[47:24] Jimi: It is, again, it's like Lord of the Rings. There's like 12 different endings.

[47:28] Tommy: Well, and so then the, obviously the, the follow up question is, what is and why do that last I wish?

[47:39] Jimi: Can we just repeat what you just said? What is and what do that last I wish? And why do that last I wish?

[47:50] Tommy: Okay. I mean, because it's cute.

[47:54] Jimi: It is a joke.

[47:56] Tommy: It's a joke. It is a gag. Yep. No, completely. And also, lest you forget, this is a farce. This is a, this is a farcical tale. It's never meant to be a serious drama.

[48:09] Jimi: Yeah. And we tiptoe into it in act two, but it is mostly farcical.

[48:13] Tommy: Yeah, exactly. So ending it on a fun note is, is like, ha, ha, ha, ha. Great. And I guess it, you know, it fits into all those themes of like, your story never ends, but you'll always want something more. And I get that. But I think at that stage in the show,

[48:30] Jimi: Yeah.

[48:31] Tommy: Your audience, they're not, you're not thinking at that point. You're not like, I'm ready for more. Give me some more message. Give me some more.

[48:37] Jimi: Do you think you fix it the same way I quote unquote fix act one, act one, like into the woods and out of the woods, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, and home before. And like, Cinderella has been contemplating and she tries to get out, get out her like, I will. And someone covers her mouth.

[49:00] Tommy: And then they go and home before dark or something.

[49:03] Jimi: And like, have a, just a proper button.

[49:04] Tommy: A proper button. And like, have someone stop her from saying, I wish.

[49:08] Jimi: Yeah.

[49:09] Tommy: Yeah. I mean, I guess, I don't know. I just feel like it's now just such an integral part of into the woods. So it's almost because it's got like his own cult status.

[49:12] Jimi: Right.

[49:13] Tommy: Which is the end. So people, people now are ready for it.

[49:16] Jimi: They're ready.

[49:16] Tommy: They're absolutely ready. There is something story-wise about, you know, it's, it's, it's ever, ever after again, part two. It's like, you always have to go into the woods. There will be an act three to this musical. There will be an act four to this musical.

[49:29] Jimi: I wonder how many people hug about, wait, waiting for the next musical to go in for act three.

[49:33] Tommy: Okay. Yeah. That's what's happening now.

[49:35] Jimi: Right. Who else is going to die?

[49:36] Tommy: Exactly.

[49:37] Jimi: Who does the baker's son grow up into?

[49:40] Tommy: Yeah.

[49:40] Jimi: Yeah. Sometimes I actually enjoy cleaning. Favorite line. Oh, what a line.

[49:48] Tommy: I want a friend and a pet.

[49:52] Jimi: So good.

[49:53] Tommy: Yeah. But the ending of both of these acts boggle me.

[49:58] Jimi: Yeah. But the ending of any show is tough. It's always so, so tough.

[50:03] Tommy: Yeah.

[50:04] Jimi: Even for the greatest people of all time.

[50:08] Tommy: And oh my God, how patronizing does that sound? It's just hard. I get it. It's so tough.

[50:14] Jimi: No, the thing is, is like, there's nothing wrong with it. It's that we're pulling teeth.

[50:18] Tommy: Yeah, exactly.

[50:19] Jimi: You're pulling teeth to try and find things that are wrong.

[50:21] Tommy: Right.

[50:22] Jimi: Within the woods.

[50:22] Tommy: Yeah, exactly. It's such a great show that these things, you know, shine a little bit because we've listened to it so many times.

[50:31] Jimi: Exactly. And the thing is, is one thing that you have to get them to applaud is for, yes, this is a farce, but it doesn't end in that like, everything happens in the last three minutes. Let's go crazy.

[50:41] Tommy: Yeah, it's like...

[50:42] Jimi: It ends beautifully. It ends with a moral.

[50:45] Tommy: Oh man. Be father and mother, you'll know what to do alone. And like, the once upon a time in a far off kingdom, like, still get me a little teary in the corner of my eye.

[50:56] Tommy: Absolutely. Particularly in the Regent's Park. I still can't.

[51:01] Jimi: Oh, yeah.

[51:02] Tommy: I can't watch that without just being like...

[51:04] Jimi: Yeah. When the baker hits and his wife is like, oh, you know, drive the dagger deeper.

[51:12] Tommy: There's so much there. Even James Corden does it well.

[51:15] Jimi: It's so good.

[51:16] Tommy: So good. Yeah. So all that to say, you know, you just can't improve it because it's pretty damn great.

[51:24] Jimi: Yeah.

[51:25] Tommy: Yeah. There you go. We know nothing.

[51:55] Jimi: What you do is the last midnight. So goodbye all. Coming at you first midnight.

[52:06] Tommy: Soon you'll see the stifle. Here you want a bean. Have another bean.

[52:14] Jimi: Beans are made for making you rich.

[52:17] Tommy: Plant them and they soar. Here you want them all.

[52:21] Jimi: Listen to the roar, giants by the storm, or you can blame another witch.

[52:25] Tommy: It's the last midnight. It's the last burst. Now before it's past midnight,

[52:35] Jimi: I'm leaving you my last word.

[52:36] Tommy: Let's talk about the witch.

[52:37] Jimi: People have just skipped to this moment. That's all they've done. Let's talk witch.

[52:43] Tommy: Yeah.

[52:45] Jimi: Let's just instantly preface as well. If you've not watched Tommy's miscast witches video, go watch that right now because that will catch you up to speed with, oh, I wonder which one they like the best.

[52:57] Tommy: We're not going to be talking about that. My number one is Hannah Waddingham.

[53:00] Jimi: There you go. My number two is Bernadette.

[53:02] Tommy: Great choice. Great choice.

[53:03] Jimi: Thank you very much, Thomas. Thank you very much.

[53:06] Tommy: So that's out of the way. We don't need to talk about that. Let's talk about one of the greatest characters ever written.

[53:12] Jimi: Yes.

[53:15] Tommy: Like, you know, I mean, if you're not playing Mama Rose, you're playing the witch.

[53:18] Jimi: You're playing the witch. And I would say the witch is more multidimensional than Mama Rose.

[53:25] Tommy: I would agree. You know, I get and in many ways, that's because of the time that it was written.

[53:30] Jimi: Yeah, absolutely fair. Yes.

[53:32] Tommy: But I was completely because there's just, there's 90 million things you can do with this character.

[53:38] Jimi: Uh huh. And they've all been done.

[53:40] Tommy: All been done. Literally all been done.

[53:46] Jimi: Yeah. So, but basically, let's, let's talk about kind of who she is in the story.

[53:51] Tommy: Yeah.

[53:52] Jimi: So in the majority of Act One, we see the witch as the witch that we know and love and that we've come to expect. The fairy tale witch.

[53:58] Tommy: The underappreciated comedy line. Who could that be? It's the witch from next door.

[54:05] Jimi: Exactly.

[54:06] Tommy: So funny.

[54:07] Jimi: Why is that funny?

[54:10] Tommy: It could, they could just say, it's the witch.

[54:14] Jimi: They could just say that line and it would have the same story moving effect, but they don't.

[54:19] Tommy: They say, it's the witch from next door because we live in a world where a witch lives next door.

[54:26] Jimi: Okay.

[54:27] Tommy: It's funny.

[54:28] Jimi: Outrageously funny.

[54:29] Tommy: And it's really underappreciated and I wish I could figure out a way to sell it better.

[54:34] Jimi: It's okay. It's, um, you know, there's lots of other funny moments. Maybe focus on those and that's fine.

[54:40] Tommy: But yeah, so the witch, she lives next door to the baker and his wife.

[54:43] Jimi: Yeah.

[54:43] Tommy: Um, and that's very important.

[54:46] Jimi: Yeah.

[54:46] Tommy: Because her and, uh, the baker's dad have a bit of a, a bit of beef going on.

[54:52] Jimi: Well, she, she's the answer to the question. I forget what playwriting directing book I read this in, but one of the first questions you should answer about any show is why today? Why is this story happening in this moment to these people right now?

[55:07] Tommy: And the reason is the witch decided today I will reverse the spell.

[55:12] Jimi: Exactly.

[55:13] Tommy: You wish to have the curse reversed.

[55:15] Jimi: Yeah.

[55:15] Tommy: And then in the movie they try to add on some extra layer about the moon and I don't understand.

[55:21] Jimi: Yeah.

[55:21] Tommy: That's another story.

[55:22] Jimi: Nevermind.

[55:23] Tommy: Anyway, um, so how many times are we going to do that this podcast?

[55:28] Jimi: Two so far.

[55:28] Tommy: Ding, ding, ding.

[55:29] Jimi: Yep.

[55:30] Tommy: Um, so one of the greatest things, so you get that witch, you know, classic ugly and haggard and funny and quirky.

[55:36] Jimi: Um, but one of the greater things about her is you actually start to see, well, who is this witch?

[55:44] Tommy: You know, what are her motivations?

[55:48] Jimi: Um, and it's not just, I want to become beautiful again.

[55:52] Tommy: Um, sure.

[55:53] Jimi: That's a big one, but you get to see this relationship she has with Rapunzel.

[56:00] Tommy: And I'm going to extend that out into the macroverse and her relationship as a mother.

[56:08] Jimi: Yeah.

[56:08] Tommy: And how she feels as a mother.

[56:12] Jimi: And I think that is what makes this character stunning.

[56:17] Tommy: Yeah.

[56:18] Jimi: I think one of the more underappreciated lines in the show is during, um, the Witch and Rapunzel song where the witch sings, I am old. I am ugly. I embarrass you. You are ashamed of me.

[56:31] Tommy: You are ashamed of me.

[56:32] Jimi: You don't understand because that is the moment we see that her motivation to become beautiful is more than just a motivation to become beautiful. It is a part of her caretaking. It is a part of like making sure she can be the best mother she can be.

[56:48] Tommy: And, you know, we also see her failing at it spectacularly in a bunch of ways.

[56:52] Jimi: Well, but this is so this is the thing is like she fails, but God, how many mothers can relate to that?

[56:58] Tommy: Like, I ain't a mother. I don't have kids, but, you know, I've got one and mine did very well. I'm not saying that she sent me to an island or the desert.

[57:11] Jimi: And, you know, um, no, but as in, you know, we all have mothers and we can relate to our experience with that.

[57:18] Tommy: Um, and this idea of I'm not perfect. I'm trying so hard to get this right. I'm doing all I can.

[57:29] Jimi: Yeah.

[57:29] Tommy: Literally, um, is the most heartbreaking thing.

[57:34] Jimi: And we see it's so heartbreaking.

[57:36] Tommy: We see it with the witch.

[57:37] Jimi: I mean, this is a show about children and parents, bar none, um, you know, Jack's mother, like head in the sack, Jack, and like the Jack's mother and, um, uh, uh, the baker's wife interaction, which is so.

[57:52] Tommy: Oh my God.

[57:53] Jimi: Like, that's okay too.

[57:54] Tommy: That's okay.

[57:54] Jimi: Heartbreaking, heartbreaking and so funny.

[57:56] Tommy: Riotously funny, depending on who you're with.

[57:58] Jimi: Yeah, exactly.

[57:59] Tommy: Oh, and like all at once you're like, oh, oh, oh.

[58:03] Jimi: Yeah.

[58:04] Tommy: And like, but she still loves him and, and dies for him.

[58:09] Jimi: Like.

[58:10] Tommy: Exactly.

[58:10] Jimi: Exactly. And then, but it extends out further.

[58:14] Tommy: You've got the giant, um, you know, she doesn't have, uh, it's not her son that's been killed.

[58:21] Jimi: Um, but she's still a older woman, do you know what I mean?

[58:25] Tommy: And has that capacity to be a maternal figure.

[58:29] Jimi: Yeah.

[58:29] Tommy: Um.

[58:29] Jimi: And is for Jack who betrays her basically.

[58:33] Tommy: Yeah, exactly. Very, very good point.

[58:35] Jimi: Um, you've got Cinderella's stepmother.

[58:38] Tommy: Right.

[58:38] Jimi: Um, who, although not perfect, has her moments where she kind of justifies.

[58:44] Tommy: Yeah.

[58:45] Jimi: Her beans.

[58:45] Tommy: She justifies why she does things.

[58:48] Jimi: We've got the baker's wife who becomes, you know, that is like, there's so many. This is the show for the mum.

[58:53] Tommy: Yeah.

[58:54] Jimi: Um.

[58:54] Tommy: And we see it most like everyone else in their parental-ness through this is on one side of the journey. Either like, we're trying to have the child or we already did.

[59:07] Jimi: And like, Jack's an idiot, but he's going to be okay.

[59:10] Tommy: Yeah.

[59:10] Jimi: But the witch is the one who has the like teenage daughter who, what do you do? There's men climbing into her window at night and that's her biggest fear in the world.

[59:21] Tommy: Exactly.

[59:22] Jimi: Exactly.

[59:32] Jimi: One of the things that always gets me, because I'm like, ah, God, it's so true, is when she's like, well, how many wolves have you carved up to Little Red? And she's like, well, a wolf's different. And then she's like, ask a wolf's mother. And I'm always just like, well, you've won. I can't, I can't fight with that one. Like, that always rings out with me. But that's something that's actually really consistent throughout the whole piece. Like, she never looks at anyone as, well, you're a human. You're not a human. So you're better than that person. Even herself, as a witch, she never thinks, I'm a witch, therefore I'm actually superior to all of you. Yeah. You know, I mean, she sees everyone on a level playing field.

And I think that's so good. And it's all right there. And like, we've taken paragraphs and paragraphs to, you know, extol upon it and talk about it. And like, I'm not good. I'm not bad. I'm just right. Yep. Is, you know, a six word, 17, however many word way of saying all that. Like, yeah, I'm the witch. I'm the, you're the world. I'm the witch. I'm what no one believes. I'm the witch. You're all liars and thieves. Like, it's, it's the simplicity. These vastly complex concepts are communicated. For sure. It's baffling.

[1:00:52] Tommy: And I think, I don't know, I find it really cool, though, that at the end of Last Midnight, after she says those lines, she goes to her mother. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? That's where she goes back to. She's like, I've tried and I've failed. Yeah. All right. Let's just, you know, I'm coming, coming back to you. Yeah. Who knows? Who knows if you're right, but it's better than here. Yeah, exactly. And I just find that really, I don't know, it gets me so much because I feel like as a mother, that must be one of your things where you have to be the bad guy. You have to make these decisions. Yeah. Where they're not, they're not necessarily, they're not based on what's right. Yeah. Well, you extrapolate back the witch's backstory and it just becomes more fascinating and complex.

Like, there's not much that gives you this in the show, but the beans live in what is the witch's mother's garden, maybe at that point, and are magic and special and, you know, must be guarded. And it's ostensibly the witch's duty to supervise them. And she doesn't because, or like messes up because the baker's father steals them and then is punished for that by being turned ugly, which is, you know, if we're classifying witches and witch's mothers as this kind of like logical, do what's right sort of thing that, you know, you were supposed to do this, you didn't do this, and here's your punishment. Yeah. It's like different parenting styles through the eyes of weird fairy tale creatures. Absolutely. Absolutely. So that's kind of who she is. And there's, again, the moral of Into the Woods podcast, there's 50 gazillion more things that we can talk about there.

[1:02:37] Jimi: Yeah. But one of the things I do want to kind of hit home on is in the song cut from the show, well, kind of swapped into Last Midnight, which is called Boom Crunch, which is on the original cast record. I don't know if it's a deluxe edition, but it's whatever one I've got on my iTunes is there. So you can listen to it. And it sounds like a Kate Bush song. It's great. And she says, one of the lines is, evil, evil, evil, evil. She points them all to evil, evil, evil. Want to know what's evil? Nice people's lies. And again, I remember in the first semester, I was like, holy moly. Yeah. I was like, that's so true. Yeah, that is so true. Because that it's, it's tied into the whole piece. That one, those three words, three words tie into the whole thing of the reason that we're here is because you, with the best intentions, were dishonest.

Yeah. And that's why we're in this mess. And that's how these things happen. Yeah. And you're still questioning as to whether that's right. Because on the other hand, you have the baker's wife, probably one of the most sympathetic characters in musical theatre, who has a whole song about the ends justifying the beans. And are the lies we tell worth it? I don't know. Who knows? And that's the point. So I'm, I'm confused. Because here, Tommy has written, Last Midnight is a great name. Like Everything's Coming Up Roses. Yet another Gypsy Witch reference here. Sondheim writes in whichever hat book, um, the goal with Everything's Coming Up Roses was to find a phrase that felt like it was an idiom and felt like it had existed forever.

But right, was new to the show. And it's, it's to the point where that may even be a surprise that Everything's Coming Up Roses wasn't a phrase before Gypsy. Yeah, because we all know that the original phrase is Everything's Coming Up Millies. Right, exactly. But It's the Last Midnight is like that for me. Right, okay. It tickles me in an interesting way that I am, you know, struggle to point out quite how. But like, in the song, it's not the last midnight. The last midnight happened in Act One. The last midnight they fed the cow. Like, if we're talking about them talking about three midnights, the last one was in the middle of Act One. But here, it's the last midnight. Like, this is the last of the last chances where it's all dark after this.

There will be no more midnights after this. And it's already pretty spooky right now. And this is a, you know, underappreciated Sondheim talent to like, find these titles and find these terms of phrase that just seem like they're in the vernacular, but aren't. I don't know if anyone ever said it's the last midnight before Stephen Sondheim put it in the song in that particular way. But I wouldn't be surprised if you look it up in like an idiom dictionary. And it's like, it's the last midnight. This is the end of the line. This is where it all comes to a head. Like, yeah, it just sounds like one of those, you know, turn-of-the-tongue flipping phrases.

[1:06:03] Tommy: Yeah. No, I do know. I do know. I mean, I never really thought about that before. Isn't that? I find it so cool, you know, and obviously a very difficult to describe way. I think it exists a lot in Into the Woods, actually, that kind of idea. Because I remember the first time I watched it, being certain that I knew a story about the bakers. I mean, like, no, that is a fairy tale. And argued with people, being like, no, it is a fairy tale. It's the, you know, the one. Right. I mean, and I had nothing. I had nothing. I think in the end I came up with the fact that Rapunzel's parents in Rapunzel were bakers. And I was like, that's what it is. It's just that. That's just not true. What is it? It's so weird. It's the same. I mean, the man is God. It is like, the things he writes seem so clever that no one could have possibly written them. They must have just always existed. And, you know, he used them. But that's not true.

[1:07:19] Jimi: Stone tablets of Mount Sinai.

[1:07:22] Tommy: And he doesn't, you know, he gets plenty of plaudits for everything, of course, but he doesn't get plaudits for some of these. It's the last midnight. It's the last wish. It's the last midnight. It's the boom squish. Like, simple, elegant, everything you need to know. We already had the motif of midnights being a deadline. We already had the idea of wishes being a thing that everyone wants. And this is the last of both of them coming together, the darkness and the light. Like, in, you know, one syllable, two syllable words that simply rhyme with each other. This isn't a clever internal Sondheim rhyme. This isn't something that rhymes 15 times in a row. This isn't an unexpected rhyme. And it's still so clever and so elegant.

[1:08:06] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:08:06] Tommy: I love it.

[1:08:07] Jimi: Well done, Sondé. Before we move on from the witch, though, let's talk a little bit about our little world.

[1:08:14] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:08:17] Jimi: So I would—

[1:08:17] Tommy: So who did you put it in when you did it?

[1:08:22] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:08:23] Tommy: Okay. Why?

[1:08:24] Jimi: So not for the reasons you're supposed to.

[1:08:27] Tommy: Okay.

[1:08:29] Jimi: We put it in because we just really like the song and think it's a beautiful song. So this is—the way that Sondheim talks about the song is that it's like a chance for you to see the witch have a nice moment with Rapunzel. Otherwise, it's just, you know, her really grinding on Rapunzel. But the kind of dramaturgical issue with that is the witch gets into this kind of open light. So what the song ends up just becoming is, isn't it funny watching a witch climb up someone's hair?

[1:09:04] Tommy: Right. Yeah.

[1:09:05] Jimi: And that's what it becomes. And she's dressed in drool.

[1:09:07] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:09:07] Jimi: Yeah. So don't tell Joseph Weinberger. But we didn't do that. We didn't do a climb because we just had the song. And I think it's really, really beautiful and nice. And for the kind of witch that we were telling, we really needed it because we were focusing on the witch as a mother and the witch and her relationship with that.

[1:09:36] Tommy: That's useful dramaturgically that way. Yeah.

[1:09:39] Jimi: Yeah, for sure. And so it made more sense when we got to the alternate lyrics in Last Midnight.

[1:09:48] Tommy: Right. About taking another child and...

[1:09:51] Jimi: In You're So Pure. Yes, exactly. And it was about the witch wanting to take this child to safety. I do definitely think both those alternate lyrics go hand in hand. If you do one, you should do the other. If you don't do one, you maybe shouldn't do the other.

[1:10:07] Tommy: Yeah. Yeah, I do. I would agree. I mean, with the kind of original Last Midnight, the witch's end is more moral, I would say. It's more of her on the outside.

[1:10:22] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:10:23] Tommy: Looking in, which is a completely, completely justified way to play the witch. But she does also have this human side, almost, where it's her as a mother and how she fits in with that. And she's one of the only characters who really gets an arc in that respect because she has a child, she loses a child, she has the opportunity to get another child and do it again. And she doesn't because she can't cope with the world anymore. It's just gone too much for her. And again, heartbreaking. And that's why I love Hannah Waddingham, because I think she does it perfectly.

[1:11:02] Tommy: Yeah, I agree.

[1:11:03] Jimi: That's the witch that I love. It's the same with Mama Rose, to tie it right back. My favourite is 2008 Patti LuPone. Everyone can shoot me for liking Patti LuPone, I don't care. 2008 Patti LuPone, because of that ending, because of that arc, that story that you're telling with that Mama Rose, that story that you're telling with this witch, that's why I love it.

[1:11:28] Tommy: That is really interesting. I didn't think about it like that. Because for me, the brief scene moments we see with the witch can be enough. She shows up and shoots the baker and his wife in the crotch and has half a sentence and then here's aah, another theme we didn't talk about. And then like, oh, my Rapunzel, isn't she beautiful? It's enough for me to see that the witch loves Rapunzel. And I don't know if we need to see much of Rapunzel's relationship with her fake mother. I don't know how much that gives us to see, because even in our little world, it's still if she just didn't drool. I still see that as like, Rapunzel singing through gritted teeth. Not 100 percent, but she's a teenager. She doesn't say things like, I love you, mom, you know?

[1:12:23] Jimi: No, she doesn't. But it's just, it's like, this is the world I know and I want to see something more. It is that you're kind of giving Rapunzel that. Because Rapunzel is completely underwritten in the show. You have to agree with that. And I think from my end and my perspective, that leads more into the reason to adding our little world. But that's because I live in high school musical theater world.

[1:12:41] Tommy: Yeah, exactly. But I just think she plays. Otherwise, she just becomes this little foil to the witch. And even then, it's not that great a foil because you don't get to see them in their normal state. You don't get to see status quo witch Rapunzel. You always get to see witch on Rapunzel's ass for, you know, which makes it maybe a little jarring.

[1:13:05] Jimi: Yeah, I think so. It makes the witch look a lot more callous than what she is.

[1:13:13] Tommy: The thing I juggle is I think we're pushing the bladder quotient here. Like, it's, you know, this show, even without our little world is still pushing like 245. And that's a long show. And we need it all. It's all important.

[1:13:28] Jimi: For sure. I wouldn't know something. I saw a production that was cut down a little bit. They cut our little world. They cut one of the midnights, or at least cut it down pretty dramatically. Okay, interesting. Yeah. And I think there were a couple verses that they cut here and there. They got it down. They got it down to like 220. Right. But I don't know, like at that point, you're like, you know, that seems like a business choice. I don't know if there's something to trade for our little world, if that makes sense.

[1:14:01] Tommy: Yeah, I know. I mean, I don't think there is. It's the same with, way back when, when we talked about Sweeney Todd, if I can remember, 48 episodes ago. But we were like, what would you cut? Yeah. And you kind of can't. You know, I mean, there's not really anything there. It's a kind of perfect specimen. Yeah, it really is. And there's not a lot of like verse chorus verse songs either where you

[1:14:24] Jimi: Things down like that a couple of the interludes maybe.

[1:14:29] Tommy: Mm-hmm, but everything comes back. Everything's important.

[1:14:33] Jimi: And you know like you could cut the like golden goose. I dare you to go back up there a little red and jack scene. No, you couldn't it's in your fault and like you'd lose.

[1:14:46] Tommy: We could that would be the first time we hear about it. You know, it becomes a less strong story if you got stuff.

[1:14:53] Jimi: But then you know, that's a whole nother bag of worms and it's another story. Never mind. Anyway, I'm ding ding ding ding if this is a YouTube video we definitely have a counter going.

[1:15:06] Tommy: Alexis Michelle just to write off the witches.

[1:15:08] Jimi: Oh, this is a told me it rendered off his miscast witches and I completely support him in his decision.

[1:15:15] Tommy: Season 9 RuPaul's Drag Race fame, Alexis Michelle. Broadway queen.

[1:15:19] Jimi: Does I think it has to be the best transformation?

[1:15:22] Tommy: Yeah, take that Rodgers and Hammerstein Cinderella and Elsa.

[1:15:29] Jimi: Yes, exactly. Did you just say Elsa?

[1:15:35] Tommy: Did you just did you just give a spoil Disney will sue me spoiler alert in the middle of let it go?

[1:15:41] Jimi: She changes outfits.

[1:15:43] Tommy: Great. Ah, but the way I've also got another drag queen who does a great rendition of let it go that may top your Elsa.

[1:15:53] Jimi: Yeah, you're Elsa I bet you it's better than the one from the headed to Broadway musical frozen, it's okay.

[1:15:59] Tommy: They've got plenty of time.

[1:16:03] Jimi: I've got faith. Anyway, we have my faith watch Alexis Michelle on YouTube. Yeah, it's that way.

[1:16:22] Tommy: We're past let's hope the changes last.

[1:16:27] Jimi: Beyond.

[1:16:29] Tommy: Beyond which is it slippers and boots just the two of us beyond lies.

[1:16:36] Jimi: Safe at home with our beautiful prize.

[1:16:39] Tommy: Just a few of us who takes trust.

[1:16:42] Jimi: It takes just a bit more and we're done.

[1:16:46] Tommy: We want for we have none. We've got three.

[1:16:49] Jimi: We need one it takes bakers.

[1:16:55] Tommy: So yeah, we've talked about the witch. Let's talk about the newbies.

[1:17:00] Jimi: Yeah, I mean, it's I think it's up for debate who the protagonist of the show is.

[1:17:05] Tommy: Uh-huh, I don't know.

[1:17:08] Jimi: The Baker.

[1:17:12] Tommy: Throwing that one out there.

[1:17:13] Jimi: What just the one?

[1:17:16] Tommy: The Baker's wife dies. The witch leaves the Baker survives. That would be my just to the end.

[1:17:22] Jimi: The Baker makes it to the end and your protagonist might want to survive your whole story.

[1:17:25] Tommy: But even then it's a you know, I think the Baker's wife goes through more interesting changes earlier. I think the witch goes through more interesting changes over the both of them.

[1:17:32] Jimi: But the Bakers are the new story for this show.

[1:17:34] Tommy: Yes, they are. Indeed. They are indeed. So, um, do we know why that they were included?

[1:17:41] Jimi: Well, I so there's I think some just logistical parts about them. They're the ones who has to go to find all the other things from the other stories.

[1:17:48] Tommy: Um, but I think I have all my Sondheim research muddled up, but I think it's in look I made a where Sondheim talks about the Bakers being the modern family tale.

[1:17:58] Jimi: Yes, exactly.

[1:18:06] Tommy: Yeah, so that's it's like they're like a suburban family.

[1:18:09] Jimi: Yeah into a storybook which was a revelation to me like 15 years into listening to into the woods.

[1:18:15] Tommy: Totally like.

[1:18:17] Jimi: And then you listen to them. They don't talk like fairy-tale people.

[1:18:21] Tommy: They don't have lines like fairy-tale people. This is why I think it's funny when the Baker goes it's the witch from next door because yeah, you know imagining a New York man businessman with wife in their apartment going like oh, it's the witch from you know, the floor below us like.

[1:18:41] Jimi: Yes is silly and funny and like they have you know the Bakers were oh I stole it from a maiden in a tower like.

[1:18:52] Tommy: They have the poking the fun lines at the fairy tale stuff.

[1:18:57] Jimi: Well, I mean she's got this is ridiculous. What am I doing here? I'm in the wrong story.

[1:19:00] Tommy: But I mean she's got the only essay that yeah the you know, oh didn't wear my husband's undoing a spell. Ooh.

[1:19:07] Jimi: Like they have these lines where's you know, oh, I have a Jack has oh, I have a goose that lays golden eggs.

[1:19:17] Tommy: He sees no irony in that. He sees nothing funny about that and like Joanna Gleeson who she will ever be for me not the Baker's wife.

[1:19:27] Jimi: You know pulled it from made in a tower like.

[1:19:31] Tommy: Yeah, yeah and it's like when she sits down with Cinderella to chat about the prince it's like a little like girl gossip.

[1:19:38] Jimi: It's like oh my god, what's he like?

[1:19:43] Tommy: Yeah, and Cinderella doesn't do those things, you know like when I entered they trumpeted like they're you know in my mind they are a tinge of British accents whereas the Baker and his wife are Americans, which speaks to my own stereotypes, but yeah.

[1:19:56] Jimi: There's something about that which is cool and clever and another edge to this show. I think.

[1:20:02] Tommy: Yeah, definitely and I just think I really like because they are because they are the kind of suburban family dropped a allows you to kind of have your set yourself on the stage is that's your that's your opportunity to have that as the audience can be like, ah the humans.

[1:20:22] Jimi: Yeah, I get it.

[1:20:28] Tommy: Yeah, you know, I mean and a very human problem that they have, you know, they want to have a child it's not you know, I wish that I was married to a prince, you know, I want to go to the festival like.

[1:20:40] Jimi: Exactly.

[1:20:44] Tommy: Yeah, there's no it's not any of these things. It's just I want a child and you listen to the all of their morals of the stories during each of the midnights and like every you know the slotted spoon don't won't hold much soup like.

[1:20:56] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:20:57] Tommy: You know never wear mauve to a ball and more pink, right?

[1:21:00] Jimi: The Baker and the Baker's wife like you may know what you need but to get what you want better see what that you keep what you have like they've got they got the goods they got the stuff they got the the morals that like apply to you.

[1:21:15] Tommy: Screw the slotted spoon.

[1:21:16] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:21:24] Tommy: And I think kind of culminating in that to any moment or moments in the woods. Sorry.

[1:21:28] Jimi: No any moment, correct?

[1:21:30] Tommy: And no more.

[1:21:34] Jimi: Yeah again are very relatable.

[1:21:39] Tommy: Yes.

[1:21:43] Jimi: Compared to the other three there are giants in the sky or I was swallowed by a wolf with that.

[1:21:48] Tommy: Yeah, I guess I had the wolf thing. The other ones are like the other ones are metaphors.

[1:21:54] Jimi: The other three are like you are extrapolating what being eaten by a wolf means to you.

[1:22:01] Tommy: Yeah, like you Jimmy are never going to get eaten by a wolf. You might experience something that feels like that.

[1:22:07] Jimi: But the you know, was that me was that him did a prince really kiss me and kiss me and did I kiss him back? And do I like my husband? Do I like this Prince?

[1:22:10] Tommy: You know, that's that's awesome. We can all relate to.

[1:22:13] Jimi: Every day of my life.

[1:22:19] Tommy: That's not true.

[1:22:22] Jimi: But no, I I do I totally get in as well with no more it's that I can't be dealing with any of this. I'm running away from my life like.

[1:22:32] Tommy: And and his the Baker's whole song is like no more of your fairy tale bullshit.

[1:22:38] Jimi: Yeah, no more riddles. No more quests. No more curses you can't undo no more giants waging like can't we just pursue our lives with our children and our wives till that happier day arrives like.

[1:22:49] Tommy: Can we just be humans without all the magic fairy tale stuff around us for sure?

[1:22:57] Jimi: Which is so not invigorating.

[1:23:04] Tommy: Yeah, I guess it makes a lot of sense that the characters written for this show don't get there.

[1:23:06] Jimi: Ah.

[1:23:06] Tommy: Like moral lightbulb moment right until until act two in the gray and the muck and in the mire because they they don't have a story. Do you know I mean they don't have a yeah relatable thing, you know like we said and these things are epigenetic, right? Do you know I mean the Baker's one isn't epigenetic and it's life and then the beautiful pinnacle icing cherry on top of the whole thing is the Baker's story becomes this story you just watched.

[1:23:34] Jimi: Yes is messy.

[1:23:36] Tommy: Which doesn't have a happy ending which is filled with ambiguous gray level morals because that's how life actually is.

[1:23:47] Jimi: It's not filled with Giants and witches and curses.

[1:23:51] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:23:51] Jimi: Exactly and they become that's it is they just become a story they're not real life anymore.

[1:23:56] Tommy: Yeah, they're there in the past and it's something that you can learn from.

[1:24:03] Jimi: Yeah, as opposed to having to experience for yourself.

[1:24:05] Tommy: Yeah, there is it's a really really smart thing to do then just make it your you know, Super Smash Brothers style oh, let's see what happens in this character plays against this character, right?

[1:24:12] Jimi: To give to give your audience a way into this and to give them yeah to be able to put themselves on the stages. It's real real smart.

[1:24:19] Tommy: It's so beautiful.

[1:24:25] Jimi: Can I run past you, you know, as I said, I spend my whole life revising musicals in my head.

[1:24:30] Tommy: This is when I've gone back and forth on in my mind because I used to think it was the lyric and it's not.

[1:24:36] Jimi: Yeah in moments in the woods.

[1:24:41] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:24:45] Jimi: Just remembering you've had an and when you're back to or.

[1:24:50] Tommy: The original lyric is makes the or mean more than it did before.

[1:24:57] Jimi: I thought the lyric was makes the or mean more than he did before.

[1:25:02] Tommy: And I've gone back and forth on liking different ones both way.

[1:25:10] Jimi: I prefer it.

[1:25:10] Tommy: Okay, because that's what she's been talking about. Uh-huh, but also it's so implied.

[1:25:13] Jimi: Okay, I mean I think it's the same as the in the belly the wolf.

[1:25:17] Tommy: Uh-huh land of the giant.

[1:25:22] Jimi: Yeah in that it's like I put the way I'm talking about the twist. I just had yeah.

[1:25:27] Tommy: Do you know I mean if you say that whereas it's nicer if she's just if she takes a moment to look at the scarf.

[1:25:35] Jimi: Yeah, and be like there is and you get that as an audience member. Then you get that.

[1:25:40] Tommy: Yeah rather than having to be like by the way, I'm talking about people.

[1:25:44] Jimi: Yeah, you know, I mean, yeah that's why I would go for it for me it's the difference between talking about people and talking about options.

[1:25:53] Tommy: So the first just remembering you've had an and when you're back to or makes the or mean more than it did before is to me like to me the Baker's wife it means a lot to me that I have this choice between these two men thinking that for a brief moment I had both of them.

[1:26:06] Jimi: Whereas if you phrase it the other way makes the or mean more than he did before it changes to me the meaning like remembering you've had an and your secret trist with the prince who maybe doesn't care about you makes the or mean more than he your husband the Baker who's stuck next to you mean more than he did before.

[1:26:31] Tommy: The secret tryst.

[1:26:33] Jimi: But I don't know which I like more and I don't think this is a thought that Sondheim's ever had and that's why I'm excited to have it out loud.

[1:26:40] Tommy: That's fair. I I mean, I'm total camp it you would never get me in camp. He I'm afraid just cuz yeah I think it plays into the whole ambiguity of the whole show.

[1:26:46] Jimi: Yeah, I mean, yeah, it could mean trist but it could also mean the other many two million decisions. You have to make exactly you know, I mean.

[1:26:58] Tommy: And I think yeah, that's why I like it.

[1:27:03] Jimi: These are the decisions that keep me up at night about musicals I haven't written.

[1:27:11] Tommy: That's fair. That's fair one day.

[1:27:13] Jimi: One day you'll be able to write.

[1:27:14] Tommy: Well, no, you'll think it's the perfect one.

[1:27:22] Jimi: Yeah, and then there'll be someone who write a little comment and be like they'll be like a new stupid musical theater podcast that's just ripping my musical to shreds and is gonna make me feel like an awful human being.

[1:27:31] Tommy: Yeah, but it doesn't matter cuz you'll have your Tony.

[1:27:34] Jimi: That's right. I'll still invite them to New York.

[1:28:01] Tommy: Do you.

[1:28:28] Jimi: So I've mentioned before that I have called erected the words positive applause.

[1:28:37] Tommy: Thank you.

[1:28:39] Jimi: Yeah, so you've worked on the show once.

[1:28:43] Tommy: Just the ones yeah, I want you to get to my son.

[1:28:49] Jimi: I've worked on that show. I don't want to know.

[1:28:51] Tommy: I know you've been in it. I know you've been in it.

[1:28:56] Jimi: We've all seen that night, and if you haven't link in the description is it in a video?

[1:29:04] Tommy: Yeah, there's a whole video of me watching it and getting really sappy and emotional about my high school life.

[1:29:10] Jimi: Graham well, that'll be.

[1:29:11] Tommy: Join tell me that you have a really cute hat though, and I think that's what's important.

[1:29:13] Jimi: It's it covered my face all the time.

[1:29:14] Tommy: I've worked on this show five times.

[1:29:16] Jimi: Five times? Wow.

[1:29:17] Tommy: I was in it. I lit it once.

[1:29:17] Jimi: And then have been on the teacher side a couple different times. Not particularly my choice, not that I wouldn't choose it, but, you know, just other people have done it when I've been around. Everyone... It's like Into The Woods is reaching Shakespeare level of interpretation, where it's like, let's do Romeo and Juliet in space!

[1:29:38] Tommy: In a barn!

[1:29:39] Jimi: Right?

[1:29:39] Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

[1:29:40] Jimi: Where no one moves on stage, or...

[1:29:45] Tommy: Like, where everyone...

[1:29:46] Jimi: Gender bending!

[1:29:47] Tommy: Where everyone's a puppet, except one of the background characters!

[1:29:51] Jimi: Where they're played by robots! Like... You know, there's an Into The Woods inside a piano, there's an Into The Woods in an attic, there's several Into The Woods that happen outside, there's one that happens, like, inside a child's bed where the whole thing comes to life. And on and on and on. There's one that's like a hipster version, there's one that's like a Vivian Westwood version. Like, yeah, there's lots, there's lots in there, if you tease apart.

[1:30:20] Tommy: The question is, is...

[1:30:23] Jimi: Well, I mean, that's great, and that's very cool. In no way are we discrediting that.

[1:30:28] Tommy: Yeah, I think it's great.

[1:30:30] Jimi: And in many ways, you know, when I return back and I watch the Broadway, I'm like, this is far too literal.

[1:30:35] Tommy: Yeah, like, how simple? There are no books on stage!

[1:30:40] Jimi: Yeah, exactly. It's like, you're in a dirndl? What the hell?

[1:30:44] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:30:45] Jimi: Do you know what I mean? There's an element of that, like, where's your concept here? I want the layers! Give me the layers!

[1:30:49] Tommy: Yeah, where's your concept? Where's your extra bits?

[1:30:53] Jimi: Give me your extra... I don't just want to see the story played out.

[1:30:56] Tommy: Right.

[1:30:57] Jimi: And it is, yeah, it's a total, I don't know, it's a total thing. For the record, ours was relatively straight. We had some funky costumes that were beautifully designed by the university costume designing department.

[1:31:11] Tommy: Um, well, but it was relatively straightforward. It does make me, it's one of the things that made me so surprised about the 2014 Disney movie was how, again, literal it was.

[1:31:19] Jimi: Um, and I don't know what I was expecting, but it wasn't quite there.

[1:31:29] Tommy: Yeah, I know.

[1:31:30] Jimi: Yeah. And then, like, literal except Johnny Depp was in a zoot suit.

[1:31:35] Tommy: Like, yes, you know, that's a really good point.

[1:31:39] Jimi: One or two, like, wait a minute.

[1:31:42] Tommy: Yeah. And that's the thing is it was literal, but like, also, you know, Jack dressed like a child of the 70s.

[1:31:50] Jimi: Yeah. And like, they're, and then they're playing fast and loose with how the narrator exists.

[1:31:56] Tommy: Yeah, but we don't talk about that.

[1:31:57] Jimi: Right. And so, you know, it seems a part of the story, especially with the, you know, the whole meta-ness of it and killing the narrator halfway through. It's an invitation to add layers, I would say.

[1:32:12] Tommy: For sure, for sure.

[1:32:14] Jimi: And I think, but I think, I always think that's a really good thing.

[1:32:17] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:32:18] Jimi: Because, you know, like, this has a fantastic life in high schools.

[1:32:22] Tommy: Oh, yes.

[1:32:22] Jimi: Across the globe.

[1:32:25] Tommy: So, and that's where you get to sink your teeth into things. That's where you get to learn as a director. You know, for me and Julian, this was such a good playing ground where it was like, let's do some fun shit.

[1:32:36] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:32:38] Tommy: And have fun and start, you know, work out stories and make some cool choreography and things like that. So, I think it's a great, great thing.

[1:32:47] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:32:49] Tommy: One thing I don't think is great is low budget Milky Way.

[1:32:54] Jimi: Oh, man. Have you seen the Tumblr? It's just my favorite.

[1:32:57] Tommy: It's just my favorite thing in the world. I'll put my favorite, absolute all-time favorite one in the show notes. Where it's a giraffe, it's not a cow.

[1:33:10] Jimi: But that's something that needs to be... It's such a hard one because...

[1:33:13] Tommy: I know!

[1:33:14] Jimi: It's such a halfway character. And like, there's so many funny things about, you know, in the middle of Act One, when the baker just picks it up by its handle and runs away with it.

[1:33:24] Tommy: But there's so many funny things about, you know, it's a person inside of a suit, and then suddenly it starts doing the dance moves with everyone.

[1:33:30] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:33:31] Tommy: Or like, when it dies.

[1:33:32] Jimi: And like, it's hard to pick the right one. You know my favorite low budget Milky Way?

[1:33:40] Tommy: It's not on the Tumblr, it's on the YouTube.

[1:33:43] Jimi: Is it the leg?

[1:33:44] Tommy: It's the one where Jack knocks off the papier-mâché leg into the audience.

[1:33:48] Jimi: But also, just props that guy for going with it.

[1:33:51] Tommy: Oh, man.

[1:33:51] Jimi: Like, he really... Like, that is a good lesson in ad-libbing right there.

[1:33:56] Tommy: It's one of... I'm not usually a big fan of what people would term amateur theater bloopers. They usually make my skin crawl.

[1:34:01] Jimi: But that's one that is like, such an accident.

[1:34:07] Tommy: And everyone sees it, and you're right there with them, and you're like, oh yeah, that's a ridiculous thing that shouldn't have happened in real life. What are you gonna do now?

[1:34:14] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:34:17] Tommy: And he just egos that he does really, really well.

[1:34:19] Jimi: Yep.

[1:34:19] Tommy: But their Mysterious Man looks really weird.

[1:34:22] Jimi: I mean, look at some of the original witches.

[1:34:26] Tommy: It's not... There's precedent.

[1:34:28] Jimi: Very true.

[1:34:29] Tommy: Very, very true.

[1:34:31] Jimi: No, it's just funny. And it's one of those things that I love going to see into the woodses.

[1:34:36] Tommy: Oh, I would go see one in a heartbeat anywhere.

[1:34:38] Jimi: Yeah, because I'm just like, what are you gonna do with it?

[1:34:41] Tommy: Yeah, absolutely.

[1:34:42] Jimi: And I think that's so exciting. I don't know if I quite feel that with any other show.

[1:34:46] Tommy: I don't know if I would ever get bored of seeing the show live.

[1:34:50] Jimi: No, not at all.

[1:34:51] Tommy: Not at all.

[1:34:52] Jimi: And I would see a, like, dirty, dirty amateur version of this.

[1:34:56] Tommy: Not dirty as in, like, dirty.

[1:34:58] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:34:58] Tommy: But like, amateur amateur.

[1:35:00] Jimi: Like, I would kind of be down with it.

[1:35:02] Tommy: I have something scarier to say.

[1:35:04] Jimi: I would be down going to see a junior version of this.

[1:35:08] Tommy: You would just go for the Act One?

[1:35:10] Jimi: I'd go for the Act One.

[1:35:12] Tommy: Middle schoolers doing it.

[1:35:13] Jimi: Why not? Because it's such a... Even Act One is a great story.

[1:35:18] Tommy: And I am sad that it's missing Act Two.

[1:35:21] Jimi: And I also don't think Act Two is terribly inappropriate for the, you know, kids who usually just do the junior version.

[1:35:25] Tommy: I don't think it's much more difficult.

[1:35:32] Jimi: I think you could do a kid's version that has both.

[1:35:35] Tommy: That is, you know, hacked and slashed down to an hour, but still has Act One and Act Two.

[1:35:42] Jimi: But I'd still go just see Act One.

[1:35:44] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:35:44] Jimi: Just to see kids do it.

[1:35:46] Tommy: But interestingly, I think Act One also has some heavy stuff in there.

[1:35:50] Jimi: Oh yeah.

[1:35:50] Tommy: That is like, is this really what you should do to my kids?

[1:35:53] Jimi: And I'm going to talk about Little Red here. They kill the wolf.

[1:35:58] Tommy: Well, yeah.

[1:35:59] Jimi: But, you know, ask a wolf's mother.

[1:36:01] Tommy: It's that part.

[1:36:01] Jimi: We don't get to that in this story. It's just the wolf died because he's bad.

[1:36:05] Tommy: Bad old wolf.

[1:36:07] Jimi: But so what do you think about the whole sex thing?

[1:36:14] Tommy: I think especially... So Precedent was set with the original Broadway production and the wolf doubling with Cinderella's prince.

[1:36:21] Jimi: Yes, exactly.

[1:36:22] Tommy: We're drawing a line there between sex-crazed men.

[1:36:28] Jimi: Yes.

[1:36:29] Tommy: Whether they wear a prince's clothing or a wolf's clothing, we still have a lot of the same assumptions about them.

[1:36:37] Jimi: For sure.

[1:36:38] Tommy: So I think that's one thing.

[1:36:39] Jimi: I do...

[1:36:42] Tommy: You know, the story is about that.

[1:36:46] Jimi: If we're talking about the Brothers Grimm kind of didacticism moral of the story, don't talk to strangers because, you know, they...

[1:36:55] Tommy: They'll steal your Hymen blood red cape.

[1:36:58] Jimi: Yeah. Like, it's right there. And, you know, they don't shy away with it in the other places.

[1:37:07] Tommy: So why shy away with it there?

[1:37:10] Jimi: And I do think, especially... So this is where I think the dramaturgy...

[1:37:18] Tommy: Dramaturgy.

[1:37:19] Jimi: This is where I think the dramaturgical structure of it is so important. Little Red is the key into our stereotype of these fairy tales.

[1:37:28] Tommy: She's the first person to sing the words into the woods, into the woods to Grandmother's house.

[1:37:33] Jimi: Like, it's almost her theme to start us off with. And she... Like, we need some exposition of Cinderella getting the dress, but that might as well be part of the prologue.

[1:37:43] Tommy: It's like prologue plus.

[1:37:45] Jimi: And then we go straight into Cinderella.

[1:37:47] Tommy: And...

[1:37:48] Jimi: Sorry. Then we go straight into Little Red.

[1:37:50] Tommy: And so, kind of hitting us across the...

[1:37:55] Jimi: Kind of hitting us across the face with that wolf outfit, which may not be the best choice of words.

[1:38:02] Tommy: No.

[1:38:04] Jimi: It sets you up with that beginning. That like, hey, we're, you know, this is not Disney's fairy tales.

[1:38:11] Tommy: We're gonna go in.

[1:38:13] Jimi: We're gonna lean into this a little bit.

[1:38:15] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:38:16] Jimi: And, you know, no one's dying. And it's also like, the wolf doesn't sing anything too overt.

[1:38:23] Tommy: And it's like, it's in that kids movie realm still, where like, you can look past the dirty joke.

[1:38:32] Jimi: But it's important dramaturgically to build us to that.

[1:38:37] Tommy: To set us up for the deaths.

[1:38:39] Jimi: To set us up for some of the darker themes we're gonna hit later on. By letting you know right away, in a funny way, in a way that you can laugh at in an uncomfortable way, that this wolf is considering both Little Red and Granny as sex objects.

[1:38:54] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:38:55] Jimi: I just think, I think it's so important that you cover it.

[1:38:58] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:38:59] Jimi: Because it's a part of growing up that doesn't get talked about otherwise.

[1:39:04] Tommy: Yes.

[1:39:04] Jimi: Do you know what I mean? It's Little Red is the story that you re-explore that with.

[1:39:09] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:39:09] Jimi: Do you know what I mean?

[1:39:10] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:39:11] Jimi: And that's in The Brothers Grimm and also in Into the Woods.

[1:39:15] Tommy: I would say this is, you know, it's a huge part of growing up, is exploring that side of things.

[1:39:20] Jimi: And maybe straying from the path and lingering a bit longer around some flowers.

[1:39:26] Tommy: You know, to me it is extremely important.

[1:39:30] Jimi: And also it helps back up what happens in Act 2 with Cinderella's Prince.

[1:39:37] Tommy: And it makes I Know Things Now a more important song.

[1:39:41] Jimi: It is the metaphor of I Know Things Now. Without that, I Know Things Now is a song about how, you know, a cape and a hood aren't going to protect you from a furry mammal.

[1:39:51] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:39:52] Jimi: But with the metaphor, it's, you know, I know things now. Many terrible things that I hadn't thought to explore.

[1:40:00] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:40:01] Jimi: I've learned a couple things. You go through a little change.

[1:40:03] Tommy: And I'm excited and I'm scared and I don't like it and I do like it.

[1:40:07] Jimi: And weird. I don't know.

[1:40:09] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:40:10] Jimi: Yeah, totally.

[1:40:13] Tommy: And again, I think very, very important that the wolf and the prince are played by the same actor.

[1:40:20] Jimi: And I get, obviously, high school, you can't do that all the time. And that's okay.

[1:40:24] Tommy: We didn't do it in our show.

[1:40:25] Jimi: They were played by the same actor.

[1:40:27] Tommy: And strangely, they didn't do it in previews.

[1:40:29] Jimi: That's a Broadway edition, is the double.

[1:40:31] Tommy: Interesting.

[1:40:32] Jimi: It was more like, I think, I'm going to get this wrong, but I think the mysterious man and one of the princes doubled.

[1:40:41] Tommy: And the wolf and the narrator, maybe?

[1:40:45] Jimi: There was like weird, unintentional doubling.

[1:40:48] Tommy: Interesting.

[1:40:49] Jimi: And then they swapped it for Broadway and it made more sense.

[1:40:51] Tommy: So just because of the fact that the characters are linked by their lines.

[1:40:56] Jimi: So in Hello, Little Girl, he says, exploring something that one would be so boring.

[1:41:07] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:41:08] Jimi: When he's talking to her about, you know, the paths. And, you know, it's fun to just explore as many as you can.

[1:41:15] Tommy: Because in Moments in the Woods, Cinderella's prince, then again, says one would be so boring.

[1:41:23] Jimi: Just one.

[1:41:24] Tommy: But yeah, that's a surprise to me.

[1:41:26] Jimi: Right.

[1:41:27] Tommy: If they weren't linked originally.

[1:41:31] Jimi: I mean, it just, you know, we're thinking about it with 20-20 hindsight. They made a discovery at some point in the story and tied their story closer together.

[1:41:38] Tommy: Like how wonderful that they made this choice in their revisionary stages.

[1:41:43] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:41:44] Tommy: Well, yeah, I think it's important just because it's the two times in the show where they talk about sex.

[1:41:50] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:41:52] Tommy: You know?

[1:41:53] Jimi: But, you know, it's however you go with it is up to you.

[1:41:56] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:41:56] Jimi: We were reasonably overt in ours.

[1:41:58] Tommy: But.

[1:41:59] Jimi: It's always difficult, especially with it being such a high school show.

[1:42:02] Tommy: I know.

[1:42:02] Jimi: That's a sticky point.

[1:42:06] Tommy: Again, maybe not the best choice.

[1:42:07] Jimi: Choices.

[1:42:09] Tommy: But OK, let's talk about death, too, because that's the other, you know, sex and death.

[1:42:13] Jimi: Let's talk about death.

[1:42:14] Tommy: These are the dirty things.

[1:42:16] Jimi: I will say, and this was rolling around in my mind when we were talking about the Bakers, um, the Baker's wife's death is the only one that's not funny.

[1:42:28] Tommy: Um, and not that the other ones are like, ha ha, funny.

[1:42:31] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:42:32] Tommy: But at least it's originally staged.

[1:42:34] Jimi: And I would say in the script, you know, Rapunzel's death is off stage with, at least in the original Broadway, a very distinct squishing sound.

[1:42:43] Tommy: Squelch.

[1:42:44] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:42:44] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:42:44] Jimi: Which is like a cringe laugh. It's like, oh, yeah.

[1:42:47] Tommy: And like, um, Jack's mother gets bonked on the head in front of people.

[1:42:54] Jimi: And, you know, you can only, because we know it's theater and the artifice is there, like, she's not actually dead.

[1:43:02] Tommy: But the Baker's wife dying is, you know, we see the beginning of it.

[1:43:08] Jimi: There are screams. We know that death is already a thing.

[1:43:11] Tommy: It's not, you know, you're not going to find anything accidentally funny about it, which is important, I think.

[1:43:17] Jimi: Oh, definitely.

[1:43:19] Tommy: But it's definitely, you know, that was one of the big changes from the movie.

[1:43:22] Jimi: They downplayed all the deaths except the Baker's wife's.

[1:43:28] Tommy: Um, disagree on that one, son-of-a-whole.

[1:43:31] Jimi: Yeah?

[1:43:32] Tommy: Yeah, for sure.

[1:43:34] Jimi: I will say Tracey Ullman's death was actually quite, quite sad compared to the original Broadway where she runs off stage and there's, yeah.

[1:43:45] Tommy: No, no, no, Tracey Ullman played Jack's mother, sorry.

[1:43:48] Jimi: Um, she gets hit in the head in the original Broadway.

[1:43:52] Tommy: She gets hit in the head and she's like, boom!

[1:43:54] Jimi: And she stood up straight. Take care of Jack!

[1:43:56] Tommy: Does Tracey Ullman die in the movie?

[1:43:59] Jimi: I seem to remember that she just disappears.

[1:44:05] Tommy: No, Jack's mother totally dies.

[1:44:07] Jimi: On screen?

[1:44:09] Tommy: Yeah, she gets flung onto the...

[1:44:11] Jimi: The log and dies. And then obviously that's when, you know, Jack finds out later and no one is alone. Oh, BT tells me your mother's dead. I have no memory of this. I'm like 4,000% sure. Huh. Because that's the thing, she says that, like, take care of Jack, take care of Jack. Huh. I have no memory of this. Granted, I've watched the movie in theatres and never watched it again. Yeah, that's fair. But yeah, so... Then I get half a point because I'm wrong. No, but other than that, it's weird because I think they almost downplay the baker's wife's death. Okay. And I think, yeah, and I think it comes mostly after the fact. And this is something I do find a bit weird and kind of challenging in the show anyway, because you come out of any moment, death, into Your Fault, which is like a really fun, exciting comedy song that the baker is taking part in.

Yeah. And it's like, he's suddenly forgot. Well, Your Fault is a comedy song, but it's a dark comedy song. It's because of you, there's a giant in our midst and my wife is dead. Like, it's a shouty song. For sure. But then, you know, yes, huh, hmm. Things like that, which he has a light, like things like that. It's just, it's, I don't know, I find it a little bit tricky.

[1:45:38] Tommy: Yeah, that is a tough thing to do. I totally get why it's there, because you don't want to labour, you know, like, this is a farce, this is a comedy. Otherwise, it's that, and then Last Midnight, and then No More, and then Children Will Listen, and it's like from angry to sad.

[1:45:52] Jimi: Yeah, exactly. And it's, you know, you're not to labour over these deaths. That's kind of a key part of it. But actually, one thing I really love about it is that you do get awkward laughs.

[1:46:08] Tommy: Yeah. Because it's that, I mean, it's that eternal thing of like, with catharsis, like you either laugh or you cry, you know, you don't have the in-between. And I think in Into the Woods, because of these characters that you know and love, it does feel uncomfortable. You're like, oh, she's dead.

[1:46:21] Jimi: Yeah. And it is a bit awkward. And I think that's a really cool part of Act Two of Into the Woods, is that things just get quite awkward. I have so many, I have lots of feelings about this on a bunch of different levels. I think, I can't remember if I talk about one of them in the show. There's, it's the only moment I've ever felt dis-, this is gonna sound snooty, and I'll rephrase afterwards, but it's the only moment I've felt really dissatisfied as an actor with a line never landing the way I want it to.

[1:46:52] Tommy: Right, okay.

[1:46:53] Jimi: The, I'm Jack sitting in the tree with the baker during the like, you know, your mother's dead, the steward killed him. And I can't remember the exact buildup, but at one point in the middle of No One Is Alone, I have a line that's like, well, I'm going to kill him, about like setting out to kill.

[1:47:06] Tommy: For the steward.

[1:47:07] Jimi: For the steward. And I see it from the audience's perspective. I'm a kid, you know, I'm a seven, eight year old kid, like, no I'm not. But from like, this is a dramatic moment, and like, I'm going to avenge my mother's death. I'm gonna go kill him. And I could never, it was always a laugh line, and I never intended it to be a laugh line. And it weirded me out. I've never, you know, I don't get a lot of accidental laughs. I feel like I'm pretty good at a punchline and knowing when it's going to be a punchline, and setting that sort of stuff up.

[1:48:01] Tommy: And Jack has plenty in the show. And like, my other roles have had plenty. But that was when I was like, I didn't expect it to laugh. I don't know how I feel about it being a laugh line. I don't know if I should fix it. I don't know how to fix it, because I thought I was being really earnest with it, which might have been what made it funny. You know, it's strange. But I wonder that about moments, especially in the second half of Act Two.

[1:48:21] Jimi: Yeah, I think that's it. It's up to your audience. You know how they take it. And a lot of it does really come down to the direction as to how tense you make it.

[1:48:27] Tommy: So to ask you, co-director, how did you end No One Is Alone?

[1:48:36] Jimi: No One Is Alone, we completed it.

[1:48:40] Tommy: Okay. So this is a point of contention across the board. If this is a thing you haven't encountered with the production. And I don't, it's been so long, I don't even know what it says in the score.

[1:48:52] Jimi: And it's No One Is A.

[1:48:53] Tommy: Okay. So as written, Sondheim pulls a Sweeney Todd, where, what happened? You decide what's good, you decide alone. But no, I don't know how we get to that point at the very end. Because this is one of the only verse chorus.

[1:49:11] Jimi: Hold on to the light now.

[1:49:13] Tommy: Yeah, let them see the glow. Things will be all right.

[1:49:16] Jimi: We're at the end of the show.

[1:49:17] Tommy: Oh, no, that's the end. That's too happy.

[1:49:20] Jimi: Yeah. Oh, no. Hard to see the light now. Just don't let it go. Things will be all right. Make it so someone is on your side. And then as written, it goes, no one is boom, boom, boom, giant, giant stuff. Ah, you know, and like, there's a couple lines, they're like, quick, duck down, you know. And the idea is, this is an inappropriate place for an applause break.

[1:49:50] Tommy: This is your audience psychology bit. Like, we don't want a button here. Whenever the audience collapse, that brings us back into the theater and out of the action. And Sondheim plays with this all the time, and I think is a big proponent of like, if we need to be in the world right now, let's be in the world. And that's why the song doesn't end. But a lot of people put the ending in. No one is alone. And they hit some nice four part harmony and it's like, boom, boom, boom.

[1:50:16] Jimi: So just to score, it is actually in it.

[1:50:20] Tommy: It is in it.

[1:50:21] Jimi: That's the licensed material.

[1:50:25] Tommy: When we did it in high school, we didn't do that. And there have been different revisions of the licensed material of this too, which is a weird thing that I'm aware of in my life. I'm a proponent of not ending that song and letting it go straight, boom, boom, boom, into the next thing. Because that's a moment you want to string through. I'm also a proponent, which I think is a 2002 revival thing that I like. That's like, you know, they kill the birds.

[1:50:53] Jimi: It's a bit of the princes.

[1:50:54] Tommy: Let me pause. Let me pause. So they've written the music to complete it. But in the script, in the libretto section, it's just someone is in your side, we hear the giant approaching and the distance song is interrupted. So it's like optional again.

[1:51:11] Jimi: Weird. That's weird that they don't specify too. That's just an incongruity on MTI's fault or whoever your British licensor is. Strange. But I think this string of moments is so important to me, because then they kill the giant. We see the big, I hate the giant's head. I'd love to not see the giant die, you know, lights and sound and flashes.

[1:51:35] Tommy: Yeah, well, applaud it to Julian. I was really proud of the way we did our giant.

[1:51:39] Jimi: Yeah. Yeah, totally his idea. I think it was his idea. It might have been our lighting designer, but I think it was him. So we use Shadowplay. Hi!

[1:51:49] Tommy: Yeah. So our theater, we were really fortunate to have a really deep theater. It wasn't the widest, but it was extremely deep. So we'd set up a kind of psych, but it was almost like camouflage, like jungle cloth. I know exactly what you're talking about, and I could look it up in my Roscoe catalog right now.

[1:52:10] Jimi: Yeah. Let's get lots. So we had that and it was perfect. It was actually a proper serendipitous moment because we built the set and there was something missing, just the black wall. And the guy who ran the theater was like, oh, I think we've got a cargo net. Let me just look. And we're just like, oh my God, get it on a bar right now, raise it up. And it was perfect. Anyway, so we, yeah, just lit our giant, and it was just her shadow.

[1:52:37] Tommy: Oh, that's cool. That's nice.

[1:52:39] Jimi: Because it was a way of getting big and it was actually a person. So our giant was voicing and acting. So that's how we did it.

[1:52:44] Tommy: That's fun. So then giant falls, and as written, and Jack's mother comes out, usually I find to applause because she's not dead. She's dead, but the actress is alive and ha, happy ending.

[1:53:07] Jimi: And I think audience is like, it's the crutching cold.

[1:53:10] Tommy: Right. Yeah. I don't like that. 2002, I think 2002, the Broadway revival, they changed the underscoring and the giant falls and it goes to this.

[1:53:22] Jimi: The slotted spoon can catch the potato.

[1:53:40] Tommy: And it's so much better. I love it so much more than the original Broadway, because it's like, you're still unsure. Is Jack's mother alive now? Or are we in the limbo at the end of a musical now? Did our quartet survive their scuffle with the giant? We don't know. The music seems pretty ominous. And then to see everyone come back with their moral and kind of get this reassurance is a much better feel to me than the bright, happy march of dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, right off the bat.

[1:54:13] Jimi: Yeah. At a really important moment of the show, because this is where we start entering that patented hashtag limbo land that we end so many musicals in where people can be alive and dead and we can just sing some reprises all at once. And so it's an important transition.

[1:54:29] Tommy: And do it right!

[1:54:59] Jimi: The slightest word. Something's bound to linger. Be heard. No one acts alone. Careful, no one is alone.

[1:55:19] Tommy: People make mistakes. Fathers. Fathers. People make mistakes.

[1:55:25] Jimi: Holding to their own. Thinking they're alone. Honor their mistakes. Fight for their mistakes. Everybody makes one another's terrible mistakes.

[1:55:42] Tommy: Witches can be right. Giants can be good. You decide what's right. You decide what's good.

[1:55:51] Jimi: Just remember. Just remember. Someone is on your side. Our side. Our side. Someone else is not.

[1:56:03] Tommy: While we're seeing our side. Our side. Our side. Maybe we forgot.

[1:56:12] Jimi: Hey, speaking of messages, we've not really talked about the themes of this show.

[1:56:17] Tommy: Have we though?

[1:56:18] Jimi: I know. But this is, I think this is, it's a nice way to kind of, this would be the last segment.

[1:56:24] Tommy: Yeah, it's a good, it's a good capstone. Good reason to end it off. Because the thing is, is where do they start? Where do they end? Pick one theme. Just try it, buddy.

[1:56:34] Jimi: Do they exist?

[1:56:35] Tommy: Yeah. I mean, do they? People, it's in, I think it's in his, either his postscript or his preface. And look, I made a hat. But Sondheim talks about like, is the giant AIDS? Or does the giant mean something? Or is something a symbol for something?

[1:56:48] Jimi: He talks about it.

[1:56:49] Tommy: Or is it, you know, or does this mean something else? And he basically says like, no, but only because that's not what we meant. Like, the giant is what you mean it to be.

[1:57:04] Jimi: Which is how every playwright should be like this. We've, we've just written a show and then you make it about what you want it to be about.

[1:57:09] Tommy: Exactly, exactly. So many people say it's AIDS.

[1:57:14] Jimi: Yeah. And I don't think that, what I think is, it's just the big bad of the time. Do you know what I mean? It's whatever, and it's that, it goes back to that epigenetic thing again, of there's always something, there's always a giant.

[1:57:24] Tommy: Exactly. There are always wolves, there are always spells, there's always something or a giant dwells there.

[1:57:34] Jimi: It's a shame that's a two-syllable word. But yeah, exactly. You know, I mean, there's always that. And I think that's why people are like, ah, is this, ah, this is what he meant. No, no, not at all. But the thing is, so that's what, you know, he wrote The Giant. Where, where did he start meaning things? Where did he start to use symbolism? Does he ever?

[1:58:00] Tommy: Yeah. Is he just writing a show?

[1:58:01] Jimi: And that's where I start to get a little bit like, whoa, because I feel like we could have spent a whole podcast just talking about the themes.

[1:58:06] Tommy: Right. Exactly. But there's not, you know, this is the cool, this hits me in high school world a lot. You're analyzing a play and people be like, well, did the playwright mean that? You know, did they actually intend for these lines in The Glass Menagerie to be deep metaphors about something, something, something, something?

[1:58:29] Jimi: Yeah. And my retort to that is like, it doesn't matter whether they meant it. It's more fun to talk about it as if they did.

[1:58:38] Tommy: Yeah. Into the Woods is interesting because people have implied so many themes about it. And Sondheim has said his yes, no answer. His like, it isn't, but it is. And it's what you want sort of thing. So like, you have definitive primary source about this to say, like, make this your show.

[1:58:56] Jimi: Exactly. Exactly. And I think in a weird kind of meta

[1:59:03] Jimi: Welcome back to Jim and Tomic's Musical Theatre Happy Hour! Today, we're celebrating our 50th episode, and what better way to do that than by diving into one of the most beloved musicals of all time, "Into the Woods"?

[1:59:33] Tommy: Absolutely! It's a monumental occasion, and "Into the Woods" is such a rich show with so many layers to explore.

[2:00:03] Jimi: Right? Stephen Sondheim's writing in this musical is just phenomenal. The way he intertwines the stories of various fairy tale characters is brilliant.

[2:00:33] Tommy: And let's not forget about the music! The score is just as intricate as the storytelling.

[2:01:03] Jimi: Speaking of the score, I think we should talk about the character of the Baker. His journey is so relatable, and the way he interacts with the other characters really drives the story forward.

[2:01:13] Tommy: Yes! The Baker's character development is one of the highlights of the show. You really feel for him as he navigates his challenges.

[2:01:23] Jimi: And then there's the Witch. What a complex character! Her transformation throughout the show is fascinating.

[2:01:33] Tommy: Definitely! The Witch's motivations and her relationship with Rapunzel add so much depth to the narrative.

[2:01:43] Jimi: I also love how Sondheim plays with the idea of consequences. Each character's wishes lead to unexpected outcomes, which is such a powerful message.

[2:01:53] Tommy: Exactly! It's a reminder that every choice we make has repercussions, and that theme resonates with audiences of all ages.

[2:02:03] Jimi: And let's not forget about the iconic song "Children Will Listen." It's such a poignant moment in the show.

[2:02:13] Tommy: Absolutely! That song really encapsulates the essence of the show and leaves a lasting impact.

[2:02:23] Jimi: Speaking of impactful moments, I think we should also discuss the ending. It's quite different from traditional fairy tales, isn't it?

[2:02:33] Tommy: Yes, it challenges the notion of "happily ever after" and leaves the audience with a lot to think about.

[2:02:43] Jimi: And that’s what makes "Into the Woods" so special. It’s not just a musical; it’s a commentary on life and the choices we make.

[2:02:53] Tommy: Exactly! And in honor of our 50th episode, we have a brand new segment to introduce later on.

[2:03:03] Jimi: Yes! We’re really excited about it. But first, let’s dive deeper into some of the characters and their arcs.

[2:03:13] Tommy: Great idea! Let’s start with Cinderella. Her journey from being mistreated to finding her own voice is so empowering.

[2:03:23] Jimi: Absolutely! And the way her story intersects with the others is just masterful.

[2:03:33] Tommy: And then there's Little Red Riding Hood. Her character adds a unique twist to the traditional fairy tale narrative.

[2:03:43] Jimi: Yes! The way she evolves throughout the story is really interesting, especially her interactions with the Wolf.

[2:03:53] Tommy: And speaking of the Wolf, his character is such a great representation of temptation and danger.

[2:04:03] Jimi: For sure! The Wolf's seduction of Little Red Riding Hood is both charming and unsettling.

[2:04:13] Tommy: It really highlights the darker themes present in the show, which is something Sondheim does so well.

[2:04:23] Jimi: And let’s not forget about the Giant! The presence of the Giant adds a whole new layer of conflict to the story.

[2:04:33] Tommy: Yes! The Giant represents the consequences of the characters' actions, and it’s a powerful reminder of how our choices can affect others.

[2:04:43] Jimi: Exactly! And that’s what makes "Into the Woods" such a timeless piece. It’s relevant no matter the era.

[2:04:53] Tommy: Absolutely! And now, let’s take a moment to reflect on some of our favorite performances of "Into the Woods."

[2:05:03] Jimi: Oh, there have been so many amazing productions! I think the original Broadway cast is hard to beat.

[2:05:13] Tommy: Definitely! The chemistry between the cast members was electric, and their performances were unforgettable.

[2:05:23] Jimi: And I also loved the Regent’s Park Open Air Theatre production. It brought a fresh perspective to the show.

[2:05:33] Tommy: Yes! The outdoor setting added a magical quality to the experience.

[2:05:43] Jimi: And Hannah Waddingham's rendition of "Children Will Listen" was simply stunning.

[2:05:53] Tommy: It really was! Her voice brought so much emotion to that moment.

[2:06:03] Jimi: And speaking of stunning performances, I have to mention Joanna Gleason as the Baker's Wife. She was phenomenal!

[2:06:13] Tommy: Absolutely! Her portrayal was both heartfelt and humorous, making her character so relatable.

[2:06:23] Jimi: And let’s not forget about the iconic moments, like the "Your Fault" scene. It’s such a clever way to showcase the characters' blame-shifting.

[2:06:33] Tommy: Yes! That scene is a perfect example of Sondheim's wit and insight into human nature.

[2:06:43] Jimi: And now, as we celebrate our 50th episode, we want to hear from our listeners. What are your favorite moments from "Into the Woods"?

[2:06:53] Tommy: Yes! Share your thoughts with us on social media. We’d love to hear your insights!

[2:07:03] Jimi: And now, let’s move on to our new segment! We’re really excited to introduce this to our listeners.

[2:07:13] Tommy: Yes! In honor of our 50th episode, we’re going to do a fun quiz related to "Into the Woods."

[2:07:23] Jimi: That’s right! We’ll be asking some trivia questions, and we want you to play along at home.

[2:07:33] Tommy: So, get ready to test your knowledge of this incredible musical!

[2:07:43] Jimi: Here’s the first question: One of the co-collaborators on this musical has worked with a laundry list of famous musical theatre names. Can you guess who it is?

[2:07:53] Tommy: And remember, it’s not in the way you think!

[2:08:03] Jimi: We’ll reveal the answer later in the episode, so stay tuned!

[2:08:13] Tommy: Now, let’s dive back into our discussion about "Into the Woods."

[2:08:23] Jimi: Yes! I think we should talk about the themes of parenthood and responsibility that run throughout the show.

[2:08:33] Tommy: Absolutely! The characters’ relationships with their parents and children are central to the narrative.

[2:08:43] Jimi: And it’s interesting to see how each character deals with their responsibilities in different ways.

[2:08:53] Tommy: Yes! Some characters embrace their roles, while others struggle with the weight of their responsibilities.

[2:09:03] Jimi: And that’s what makes the show so relatable. We all face challenges in our relationships.

[2:09:13] Tommy: Exactly! And the way Sondheim weaves these themes into the fabric of the story is masterful.

[2:09:23] Jimi: And let’s not forget about the humor! There are so many clever lines and moments that lighten the mood.

[2:09:33] Tommy: Yes! Sondheim has a way of balancing the serious with the comedic, which makes for a well-rounded experience.

[2:09:43] Jimi: And that’s part of what makes "Into the Woods" such a beloved musical. It has something for everyone.

[2:09:53] Tommy: Absolutely! And as we celebrate our 50th episode, we’re so grateful for all of our listeners who have joined us on this journey.

[2:10:03] Jimi: Yes! Thank you for your support, and we can’t wait to continue sharing our love of musical theatre with you.

[2:10:13] Tommy: And now, let’s get back to our quiz! Here’s another question for you.

[2:10:23] Jimi: Yes! This one is a bit trickier. What is the name of the character who is often seen as a representation of temptation?

[2:10:33] Tommy: And remember, think about the themes we’ve discussed!

[2:10:43] Jimi: We’ll give you a moment to think about it before revealing the answer later in the episode.

[2:10:53] Tommy: And now, let’s continue our discussion about the music of "Into the Woods."

[2:11:03] Jimi: Yes! The score is so intricate and beautifully composed.

[2:11:13] Tommy: And the way the melodies intertwine is just magical.

[2:11:23] Jimi: Absolutely! Each song serves a purpose and adds to the character development.

[2:11:33] Tommy: And the harmonies are just stunning. They really elevate the emotional impact of the show.

[2:11:43] Jimi: And let’s not forget about the iconic opening number. It sets the stage perfectly for the entire story.

[2:11:53] Tommy: Yes! It introduces the characters and their desires in such a clever way.

[2:12:03] Jimi: And the repetition of the phrase "I wish" throughout the song is so powerful.

[2:12:13] Tommy: It really encapsulates the longing and desire that drives the characters.

[2:12:23] Jimi: And as we wrap up our discussion, I think it’s important to reflect on the legacy of "Into the Woods."

[2:12:33] Tommy: Yes! It has had such a lasting impact on musical theatre and continues to resonate with audiences today.

[2:12:43] Jimi: And as we celebrate our 50th episode, we’re excited to see where our journey takes us next.

[2:12:53] Tommy: Absolutely! Thank you for joining us today, and we can’t wait to share more musical theatre magic with you in the future.

[2:13:03] Jimi: And don’t forget to share your thoughts on "Into the Woods" with us!

[2:13:13] Tommy: Yes! Until next time, keep the musical theatre spirit alive!

[2:13:23] Jimi: Cheers!

[2:13:33] Tommy: Cheers!

[2:13:43] Jimi: Happy 50th episode!

[2:13:53] Tommy: Happy 50th!