This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Tommy: Jimmy's got the vapors everyone. The vapors? The vapors? Have you never heard of the vapors?

[0:05] Jimi: That's what southern women get when they're startled. Okay, it's not just like another word for like millennials.

[0:09] Tommy: No, but... Oh, I see. You mean like my near-do-well students? They're not vaping, are they?

[0:20] Jimi: No, not my kids, of course. Other people's children. Other people's children are vaping.

[0:25] Tommy: Oh, in a world! Isn't that ridiculous? Vaping. Oh, gosh.

[0:33] Jimi: Do you have... Sorry, I've just nose-walled water. Yeah, Jimmy, stop vaping. Jeez. We're trying to do a podcast. Do you have like vape emporiums?

[0:47] Tommy: Um, yes. I can think of maybe one or two, like, like smoke shops where you go and you try out the different flavors.

[0:53] Jimi: Yeah. There's one just like down the road from me. I've never seen one single person in it. It's so funny.

[1:00] Tommy: That's how mine is, too! And this is where I learned... So there's a saying that I've learned is only a Chicago saying.

[1:06] Jimi: Right.

[1:12] Tommy: Which is where you see a business that is like, stays open forever, but no one's ever in there.

[1:16] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:21] Tommy: And the Chicago joke is to say, oh, it must be owned by the Bob.

[1:28] Jimi: Yeah. But apparently in Denver, because I've made that joke to some people, they're like, I don't understand what you mean. You don't have a mob in Denver?

[1:34] Tommy: Apparently not. I feel like Denver could have a mob?

[1:44] Jimi: There's no gangster history, as far as I know. Let's start one.

[1:48] Tommy: Nah. There's plenty of other sordid history to Denver and Colorado, but no mafia.

[1:59] Jimi: Okay. Well, there you go. There you go. That's your Denver fact for the day.

[2:10] Tommy: That's my Denver fact. Ours would just be a drug cartel. It's kind of the same thing.

[2:19] Jimi: Yeah. Anyway. Good. We start with a nice smattering of sin and vice. We interrupt our program to bring you this important message. Hey, podcast fans, it's future Jimmy here. Just time traveled back to let you know that we actually recorded this podcast on Hadestown before the big announcement that Hadestown is coming to the West End, very excitingly, from November the 2nd to the Olivier Theatre.

[2:34] Tommy: And we also recorded it before the announcement that Be More Chill is coming off Broadway on August the 9th. Now, this will all make sense as you listen. But basically, the theme is, right, that Tommy and I somehow have this innate capability of predicting the future.

[2:47] Jimi: So if there's, I don't know, if there's a show that you really want revived, or one that's way out there in the fringes that you want to head to your big theatre zone, just let us know and we'll cover it because it will inevitably come to life. So there we go. Anyway, enjoy the podcast. Kisses.

[3:19] Tommy: Welcome to Jim and Tomek's Musical Theatre Happy Hour, your weekly podcast with Liars, and Limoncello. Ooh, sour.

[3:28] Jimi: Have you ever had Limoncello?

[3:30] Tommy: I have.

[3:31] Jimi: I have a friend whose mother makes homemade Limoncello.

[3:35] Tommy: That is not going to be good.

[3:37] Jimi: It is delicious.

[3:39] Tommy: Is it?

[3:39] Jimi: It's so good.

[3:40] Tommy: Are you sure it's not just lemonade?

[3:42] Jimi: I mean, I didn't have a lot of it, so it might have just been lemonade.

[3:46] Tommy: Uh-huh. Did it have the burn? If it's got the burn, then you're fine.

[3:50] Jimi: There was a little bit of a burn.

[3:51] Tommy: Okay, good. Yeah, it's really nice. Ice-cold Limoncello. Oh, my.

[3:57] Jimi: Delicious. Speaking of, what are you drinking today, Jimmy?

[4:02] Tommy: Limoncello? No, I'm joking. I am drinking pomegranate juice.

[4:06] Jimi: Pomegranate juice? Ooh, a solid choice.

[4:10] Tommy: That's a niche reference. Let's see if we can pull that apart.

[4:14] Jimi: That's a tough one. You might have to explain that one to me later.

[4:17] Tommy: We'll discuss it later.

[4:19] Jimi: I am drinking dandelion wine.

[4:24] Tommy: Which actually sounds-

[4:24] Jimi: I can't work that one out either.

[4:26] Tommy: Sounds kind of gross.

[4:28] Jimi: Is that in the show?

[4:30] Tommy: That's in the show. Drinking dandelion wine.

[4:34] Jimi: Oh, okay.

[4:35] Tommy: But now we're living it.

[4:37] Jimi: Did you, like, scroll through the whole show just to find a drink?

[4:40] Tommy: No, that one, it stuck out to me because-

[4:42] Jimi: That stuck out?

[4:43] Tommy: Because I thought to myself, can you make wine out of dandelions? That must taste awful.

[4:48] Jimi: Well, I mean, we've got our dandelion and burdock- we've talked about this before, dandelion and burdock.

[4:53] Tommy: Have we? I don't remember this.

[4:54] Jimi: Yes, uh-huh. Over here. And it's sort of an aniseed-y taste.

[4:59] Tommy: Soft drink.

[5:00] Jimi: Yeah. Weird.

[5:03] Tommy: Adding to the wonderful lists of food in Scotland.

[5:07] Jimi: Exactly. Hey, that's actually more of an English thing, thank you very much. We just have iron brew. Oh my gosh, actually, in the hiatus.

[5:14] Tommy: Yes.

[5:15] Jimi: The world has changed.

[5:16] Tommy: How has the world changed?

[5:17] Jimi: This is totally unrelated. I may cut this out, but I need to discuss it with you. So, Tommy, count yourself lucky that you were among the few, the fabulous few, who drank iron brew when it was real authentic.

[5:31] Tommy: Oh, have they changed the recipe?

[5:34] Jimi: They have. So, the UK has now gone under this sugar tax. Uh, so, all, like, soft drinks would have to pay, like, a surplus.

[5:41] Tommy: Yeah.

[5:47] Jimi: If they're above a certain level of sugar. So, iron brew have changed their recipe.

[5:51] Tommy: Oh, no.

[5:52] Jimi: It is no longer the iron brew that we know and love.

[5:55] Tommy: Is it like aspartame or something?

[5:58] Jimi: Yeah, it's a mixture of sugar and sweeteners now. And it just, they're like, it tastes the exact same. It doesn't taste the exact same. It is different.

[6:07] Tommy: That's, you know, Jimmy, that's how I felt when they took the cocaine out of Coca-Cola.

[6:12] Jimi: Right. Right. It's just history repeating. Did we not learn?

[6:19] Tommy: So, there you go.

[6:23] Jimi: I mean, it really is actually quite sad because it's a big part of our heart. I mean, you saw when we drank iron brew together. That was a big, big thing.

[6:31] Tommy: Solid moment. I felt a tiny bit of Scottish in that moment.

[6:33] Jimi: I lit some candles.

[6:35] Tommy: Some candles.

[6:36] Jimi: Sung a hymn.

[6:40] Tommy: It was great.

[6:41] Jimi: Oh, man.

[6:42] Tommy: Yes. So, what are we talking about today, Tommy?

[6:45] Jimi: Well, I'll tell you. In fact, I'll ask you because I have a quiz question.

[6:49] Tommy: Stunning.

[6:51] Jimi: It is if the format of this show will never change.

[6:56] Tommy: Oh, man. The folk singer author of this, our next musical has shared studio space with friend of the podcast, Dave Malloy, and her artistic connections clearly reflect this. What show could we possibly be talking about, Jimmy?

[7:11] Jimi: Well, I have a feeling that that person is Aeneas Mitchell. And I have a feeling that the show is Hadestown.

[7:32] ♪ Musical number: "Way Down Hadestown" — performed by the cast of Hadestown ♪

[9:10] Tommy: Hadestown.

[9:12] Jimi: Yeah, man.

[9:14] Tommy: I would not be, you know, we're maybe a couple months behind on the hype train, but this is a deeper cut. I don't think it's on a lot of people's radars.

[9:18] Jimi: Yeah, I mean, certainly not over here.

[9:22] Tommy: Yeah.

[9:24] Jimi: I would say if you're maybe in New York.

[9:26] Tommy: Maybe in New York.

[9:28] Jimi: If you're in Edmonton, Canada.

[9:30] Tommy: Maybe.

[9:32] Jimi: But I feel like it's not.

[9:34] Tommy: Yeah.

[9:36] Jimi: Like you say, it's not caught the.

[9:38] Tommy: Yeah.

[9:40] Jimi: Say something like, like Heather said, or like even what's that? Be more chill.

[9:42] Tommy: Right.

[9:44] Jimi: It's like explosion.

[9:49] Tommy: There's only like 20 tumblers.

[9:51] Jimi: Right.

[9:53] Tommy: There's not 4,000.

[9:55] Jimi: I don't think they quite have a groupie name for themselves yet.

[9:57] Tommy: We haven't reached that level of fandom yet.

[9:59] Jimi: Unless I didn't read deep enough.

[10:01] Tommy: I know.

[10:03] Jimi: I think we're about to be corrected in about two minutes time, by the way.

[10:05] Tommy: So yeah, tell us all about it.

[10:07] Jimi: So for those of you who haven't heard about Hadestown. It's got music lyrics and book by Anais Mitchell. I'm trying real hard to say her name correctly the whole time.

[10:13] Tommy: Yep.

[10:15] Jimi: You will.

[10:17] Tommy: You will.

[10:19] Jimi: I believe in you.

[10:21] Tommy: Anais Mitchell.

[10:23] Jimi: I think crossed our radar because the productions have been directed by the wonderful Rachel Chavkin.

[10:25] Tommy: Yes, indeed.

[10:27] Jimi: Of Natasha Pierre and the Great Comet of 1812 fame.

[10:29] Tommy: Yes.

[10:31] Jimi: And so it's actually based on a concept album by Anais Mitchell that was released, I want to say, in like 2015.

[10:33] Tommy: Is that right?

[10:35] Jimi: Well, I know she, this show has a long history.

[10:37] Tommy: It does, doesn't it?

[10:39] Jimi: I think she started workshopping the idea of the concept album.

[10:41] Tommy: I think she started workshopping the idea of the concept album.

[10:43] Jimi: I think she started workshopping the idea of the concept album.

[10:45] Tommy: She started workshopping what became the concept album in like, I want to say like 2005 or 2006...

[10:47] Jimi: She started workshopping what became the concept album in like, I want to say like 2005 or 2006...

[10:53] Tommy: It was 2010, there we go.

[10:55] Jimi: The album came out in 2010.

[10:57] Tommy: She had been working on it for quite some time.

[11:00] Jimi: And it's a... it's a folk opera.

[11:02] Tommy: Anais Mitchell is a folk songwriter and has a couple other albums before this...

[11:04] Jimi: And it's a... it's a folk opera.

[11:06] Tommy: Anais Mitchell is a folk songwriter and has a couple other albums before this...

[11:08] Jimi: So is coming to the musical theater world in kind of a different direction.

[11:10] Tommy: So is coming to the musical theater world in kind of a different direction.

[11:12] Jimi: So is coming to the musical theater world in kind of a different direction.

[11:15] Tommy: But so then the concept album transferred to or transformed into a off-broadway producer at the New York Theatre Workshop in 2016.

[11:17] Jimi: But so then the concept album transferred to or transformed into a off-broadway producer at the New York Theatre Workshop in 2016.

[11:19] Tommy: But so then the concept album transferred to or transformed into a off-broadway producer at the New York Theatre Workshop in 2016.

[11:21] Jimi: But so then the concept album transferred to or transformed into a off-broadway producer at the New York Theatre Workshop in 2016.

[11:23] Tommy: But so then the concept album transferred to or transformed into a off-broadway producer at the New York Theatre Workshop in 2016.

[11:25] Jimi: Of course, Michael Boult even just finished up what they were calling a pre-Broadway tryout in Edmonton, Canada in 2017 at the Citadel Theatre.

[11:27] Tommy: Of course, Michael Boult even just finished up what they were calling a pre-Broadway tryout in Edmonton, Canada in 2017 at the Citadel Theatre.

[11:29] Jimi: Of course, Michael Boult even just finished up what they were calling a pre-Broadway tryout in Edmonton, Canada in 2017 at the Citadel Theatre.

[11:30] Tommy: Of course, Michael Boult even just finished up what they were calling a pre-Broadway tryout in Edmonton, Canada in 2017 at the Citadel Theatre.

[11:32] Jimi: Of course, Michael Boult even just finished up what they were calling a pre-Broadway tryout in Edmonton, Canada in 2017 at the Citadel Theatre.

[11:34] Tommy: And again, both directed by Rachel Chalkin as far as I know.

[11:36] Jimi: In 2017 at the Citadel Theatre.

[11:38] Tommy: yeah.

[11:40] Jimi: And again, both directed by Rachel Chalkin as far as I know.

[11:42] Tommy: She was one of the big ones that was like, let's make this a piece of theatre as opposed to just a concept album series, a big champion of that.

[11:48] Jimi: And then they released the album, like a live recording of most of the show, which was released in 2017, which is when we were supposed to record this podcast.

[11:59] Tommy: Oh, how long ago that was.

[12:02] Jimi: Yeah, so what's what's the show about, Jimmy?

[12:06] Tommy: So this show is based on that.

[12:08] Jimi: Jimmy's very excited.

[12:10] Tommy: Why?

[12:12] Jimi: Jimmy's very excited because, little known fact about Jimmy.

[12:15] Tommy: Jimmy, since the age of about six, has been obsessed with Greek mythology.

[12:20] Jimi: Like, damn dirty obsessed.

[12:23] Tommy: And this musical is based on one of my favourite myths.

[12:29] Jimi: So it's based on the myth of Orpheus and Eurydice, who were two lovers.

[12:37] Tommy: And Eurydice, well, this is where it kind of gets tricky.

[12:41] Jimi: So in the original myth, Eurydice is killed.

[12:43] Tommy: In this one, it's a little bit different.

[12:45] Jimi: It's a little more complex.

[12:47] Tommy: Yeah, a little bit more complex.

[12:49] Jimi: In this musical, in this adaptation, she decides to go down into the underworld.

[12:56] Tommy: And then Orpheus, obviously wanting to be with her.

[13:00] Jimi: He doesn't want her to be dead.

[13:02] Tommy: Goes after her and tries to bring her back to Earth.

[13:10] Jimi: And along the way, lots of other stuff.

[13:13] Tommy: But that's the very short of it.

[13:15] Jimi: Of the base myth.

[13:16] Tommy: And then Hadestown itself kind of resets this myth in a, oh, like, mid-America, depression era, country feel music sound.

[13:24] Jimi: Also with like a post-apocalyptic vibe to it.

[13:30] Tommy: Yeah, it's definitely a where are we? Who knows?

[13:33] Jimi: It doesn't matter. Wasteland.

[13:40] Jimi: It's very true of something like O Brother Where Art Thou? In maybe time period-ish, or feel at least. And certainly with the myth backing it all.

[13:52] Tommy: For sure. And so our kind of two other key characters are the character of Hades, obviously the Lord of the Underworld, and his wife Persephone. And you're kind of seeing a mirroring of the two couples' relationships and how they relate to each other.

[14:12] Jimi: It's interesting to see the two couples because that is a very core musical theatre trope, like the older couple and the younger couple and the play between them, but to see it in this kind of Greek myth motif. I don't know.

[14:25] Tommy: Exactly. And it's something that's never, you know, in terms of the actual myth itself, it's not a part of the myth, you don't see. I mean, Hades and Persephone are their total own bag.

[14:35] Jimi: Exactly. And they're both involved in the myth of Orpheus and Eurydice, but they're not key to it. Not as strongly as they are in this adaptation.

[14:43] Tommy: Yep, exactly. Exactly. So shall we delve on down into Hadestown, Tommy?

[14:49] Jimi: Let's do it. Here we go.

[15:05] Tommy: Wow, it's both hot and bright.

[15:22] Jimi: It sounds like some of the script writing in this show.

[15:25] Tommy: Oh, shots fired.

[15:29] Jimi: Those moments are far and in between.

[15:31] Tommy: Exactly.

[15:32] Jimi: So, we mentioned briefly, but it's worth delving into that this show has been around for a long time compared to how short of a time it's been around for.

[15:39] Tommy: Wow, that didn't make any sense.

[15:47] Jimi: Let me try again. This show has been around for a long time compared to how long it's been around for. The concept of this show...

[15:53] Tommy: That was like a lyric.

[15:57] Jimi: Mitchell's been working on this show for a long time.

[16:00] Tommy: I see what you mean. Yep, I'm with you.

[16:03] Jimi: It compared to how little time it's existed in our musical theater, I don't know, orbit.

[16:10] Tommy: Yes.

[16:14] Jimi: It makes it really difficult to analyze this show because it has existed in a bunch of different incarnations. You can listen to the live cast recording, which is the New York Theater Workshop cast recording. You can listen to promo footage of the 2017 Citadel production. You can listen to Mitchell's concept album, which is decidedly a folk album and not a musical theater world. You can listen to live concert recordings from pre-2010, where it's just a bunch of people sitting around in a concert venue, and they all have little changes and differences that make it, at least for me, complicated and complex to discuss because it's hard to know which version to talk about.

[16:57] Tommy: Exactly. I would say, though, I think for the purposes of the podcast, we'll probably be mostly focusing on the actual musical, the thing that ended up on the stage.

[17:06] Jimi: Right.

[17:07] Tommy: But it's definitely important in that sense of like, I know where I've been to look back and see some of the origins. But I think actually, well, it's Path, I think is quite interesting because what it's done is it's created lots of different pockets of fan bases.

[17:25] Jimi: Yes. Yes.

[17:26] Tommy: Which is really, really interesting.

[17:28] Jimi: Right. Like there's the people who enjoy Mitchell's previous work, and there's people who enjoy folk music. But then there's people who saw the off-Broadway production, and then there's people from Canada who saw the pre-Broadway production. And they all kind of spin in these separate circles. And then there's the great Comet crowd who are tuning in because Chavkin and a bunch of her creative team are on board.

[17:50] Tommy: Exactly.

[17:51] Jimi: And then there's the Spider-Man Turn-Off-The-Dark crowd who are tuning in because Reeve Kearney and TV and Patrick Page are all in this of Spider-Man Turn-Off-The-Dark fame.

[18:04] Tommy: So all three of them, all three of the Spideys.

[18:07] Jimi: Yeah, exactly. So yeah, it is weird. It's like everyone, there's a bunch of different groups interested in the show.

[18:14] Tommy: Yeah. And I feel like that, again, that's quite unique to the Broadway sphere. Like, obviously, you can be a big fan of a composer, say, and then find it because of that. But very rarely would you kind of come from the music world into the theatre world and appreciate it that way. Because even I feel like with jukebox musicals, do you know what I mean? You're not going to be, you know, big mad Abastan and then become obsessed with Mamma Mia by default.

[18:43] Jimi: This feels like it's a natural segway.

[18:45] Tommy: Yeah. Well, I wonder if we're seeing the pendulum swing back because you have something like Waitress with Sara Bareilles or you have something, I feel like there's a bunch of these and I can't think of them right now.

[18:58] Jimi: Well, I guess like American Idiot as well. That's relatively recent.

[19:03] Tommy: Or even something like Nine to Five, which certainly we have the movie backing and things like that. But like, if you like Dolly Parton, you're going to like Nine to Five.

[19:13] Jimi: Yeah, true.

[19:14] Tommy: But, you know, those are, I think, coming more from the pop music world, although I'm sure, you know, Dolly Parton is decidedly country and Sara Bareilles has her own sound. But this is the folk music world has a following like the musical theatre world does.

[19:30] Jimi: Definitely. And I think as well, actually, because I'm quite a big folk fan and that's a lot of the stuff that I've been brought up on. And I think the folk circle really appreciates theatre and like intelligent writing.

[19:45] Tommy: Yeah.

[19:45] Jimi: Lyric, you know, I mean, they're not really in it for this like catchy hook.

[19:49] Tommy: Right.

[19:49] Jimi: That isn't necessarily why they come to see a show, they come see it for the almost storytelling aspect.

[19:54] Tommy: Right, exactly.

[19:55] Jimi: That comes with a really good folk concert.

[19:57] Tommy: Yeah.

[19:58] Jimi: And so I can see, again, I can see this natural sort of path.

[20:05] Tommy: Yeah.

[20:06] Jimi: It's quite smart.

[20:07] Tommy: And it does seem to inform the story in a way that I think, you know, if we're talking about concept albums coming from outside the musical theatre world in a way that I think like, well, I don't know, I am tossing Hadestown around in my head alongside The Who's Tommy because it took a similar artistic progression from concept album, not intended to be a musical per se, to musical. And like, where Tommy is a rock opera, and a lot of aspects of the story are informed by the genre of the music. And I feel similarly about Hadestown, that a lot of like, not just how the story is told, but what the story is, have that folk flavour.

[20:58] Tommy: I think it's a good thing. It's like how, you know, Sondheim talks about finding the right genre to fit the story you're telling. That's a thing that Aarons and Flaherty do ridiculously well all the time.

[21:13] Jimi: Right, exactly.

[21:13] Tommy: Of like, tuning their music to fit the story. It's just one more step because the folk tradition has, you know, a bunch of trappings attached to it.

[21:24] Jimi: Absolutely. One that just came to my head there was, or one that doesn't exist yet that I'm surprised that doesn't exist in terms of concept album to musical theatre, is The Wall by Pink Floyd.

[21:38] Tommy: Oh, yeah. That is interesting.

[21:41] Jimi: Because that obviously was made into a film.

[21:43] Tommy: Right. But then it hasn't made it to the stage.

[21:46] Jimi: Yeah, I find that quite strange. I mean, I don't know. I wonder if anyone's ever done that out there. I've never actually researched that.

[21:52] Tommy: So I have this question for you, Jimi, because I think it's something I struggle with developing my own opinion on. But how do you feel about, you know, for lack of a better term, outsiders coming into our musical theatre temple?

[22:09] Jimi: Our musical world, the others.

[22:11] Tommy: Yeah.

[22:12] Jimi: Yeah, I mean, I'm obviously totally open to it because, you know, well, you know, I'm a big music fan.

[22:18] Tommy: Right.

[22:18] Jimi: Do you know what I mean? And I have a lot of, you know, I would equal passion for music and musical theatre. And my really my only remit is come in and do it well.

[22:29] Tommy: Yeah.

[22:29] Jimi: Like, and we're of the same mind that we love when people play with a genre and try and transform it in some way.

[22:35] Tommy: Yeah.

[22:38] Jimi: And I think one of the easiest ways that we can get that is from, like you say, so-called outsiders.

[22:44] Tommy: Right.

[22:45] Jimi: Because even someone like Dave Malloy, you know, he's, he was a Dylan head, you know, he was a Thelonious Monk head. He comes from a jazz world growing up in Brooklyn and looking at theatre and looking at storytelling, not necessarily being like, I love a chorus line. I can't wait to put that, you know what I mean?

[23:08] Tommy: Right. Yeah. I guess I would draw a line between the two of them, between Anais and Dave.

[23:17] Jimi: Yeah.

[23:18] Tommy: In, like, their primary media began as theatre. And I know that that's like, you know, we got here first is a false argument.

[23:31] Jimi: Yeah.

[23:32] Tommy: But I think of, you know, someone like Lin-Manuel Miranda, you know, Pasek and Paul, like, coming to the genre from the beginning, I think sets you up in a different way than entering the genre from a previous musical world.

[23:47] Jimi: And what do you mean by, what do you mean by sets you up? Like, what kind of advantages are you talking about?

[23:59] Tommy: I see the differences demonstrated in this show between the 2010 concept album and the 2017 live recording. And not that the 2010 concept album was never set up to be a musical. So you can't qualify these things. Or, you know, it's apples and oranges, per se.

[24:20] Jimi: Yep.

[24:21] Tommy: But like, to see the additions that were made for the sake of musical theatre storytelling in the live recording, that sometimes in the tiniest ways, and I think this is what they're tuning and why they're doing some out of town tryouts, but seem shoehorned in, seem on top of. And it's impossible to know if that's my preconceived notion of seeing what it looked like before. Like, would I have the same comment if I didn't know what it was beforehand? But it still reads to me that way, like some of the character introduction and how some of the like, less than musical passages seem more pedestrian or simplistic, and aren't as incorporated into the music as some of, you know, the music is.

[25:07] Jimi: Yeah.

[25:08] Tommy: Where I think that, or I suspect, or maybe hypothesize that that sort of thing may come more effortlessly to someone who approaches musical theatre from the get go, and is incorporating that storytelling into the song singing from the beginning.

[25:24] Jimi: Yeah. Well, I think with Hadestown in particular, obviously, it's theatricalizing.

[25:31] Tommy: Right.

[25:33] Jimi: Came from, it came from Rachel Chavkin, you know, she came in and brought these ideas for 15 different songs onto the table to be like, this is what this needs in order to tell a story, to tell this cohesive story. Obviously, Rachel Chavkin, she's an incredible director, and she's very aware of good storytelling.

[25:51] Tommy: Yeah.

[25:51] Jimi: And what things need. But at the end of the day, it's Ineos Mitchell who's credited for the book.

[25:57] Tommy: Right.

[25:58] Jimi: So, you know, I mean, I do agree with you that there's, there will definitely be issues, and I think often will lie with the book. For example, if you look at something like American Idiot, you know, the music is great and very, very powerful. But the book itself,

[26:17] Tommy: It kind of hobbles a bit.

[26:18] Jimi: Absolutely. You know, I mean, that's not why you're going to see it.

[26:22] Tommy: Right.

[26:22] Jimi: That's not why you're going to see that show. But kind of, to be honest, though, to give Hadestown its dues, I think, and we'll talk about this when we go into, you know, the actual story of it in a bit. But I think from the get go, you can tell Ineos is set out to tell this myth, not just by describing the myth. She's really, she's aiming to tell a particular story and pick out particular things. Which I think you have to give her applause for, because that's, you don't often get that in any sort of music and even concept albums. You're normally telling a story, you've got characters that come back, but the kind of intricacy of these themes that go all the way through, I think are really, really special.

[27:10] Tommy: Well, it is very clearly Hadestown the musical, not Orpheus and Eurydice the musical.

[27:19] Tommy: New story, very heavily inspired by the myth, not a musical retelling of the myth.

[27:27] Jimi: Absolutely, absolutely. So yeah, to cut a long story short, what I feel about outsiders doing musicals, yeah, as long as you do it well, you're more than welcome, and please do, because sometimes it gets a little bit boring.

[27:38] Tommy: Yes, and a little bit, I don't know, and we're in danger of this all the time, but uber intellectual and gatekeeper-y.

[27:54] Jimi: Definitely, and it's, you know, and I do, I really do think that, you know, people like Dave Malloy, like Anais Mitchell, I want to think of someone that isn't related to either of them, um, but I can't just now. It's, I mean, it is, I think with the two of them, we are, we are on a new precipice of musical theatre genre. It's definitely a place that I'm very excited about.

[28:23] Tommy: Yeah. I mean, that's something there that I think's really cool.

[28:27] Jimi: Yeah, and they're, they're definitely capitalizing on, I don't, I don't think it's a big cohort right now, but I want it to be.

[28:33] Tommy: Absolutely, and I think a lot of, um, Broadway theatre goers and musical theatre fans would agree with us.

[28:44] Jimi: Yeah. You know, um, obviously the way that Comet ended up.

[28:51] Tommy: Right, I mean, I get more nervous about it every day. I mean, take a look at Margaritaville right now, like, right, you know, like, I want more Dave Malloy's and Anais Mitchell's. I just want more of them.

[29:04] Jimi: I mean, yeah, Jimmy Buffett, you can have your restaurant, like, that's fine.

[29:09] Tommy: Yeah, exactly. You just have to glance at this season and be like, I'm proud. Are you proud of her? And make my stomach turn.

[29:16] Jimi: But that's for another podcast. But that's not why we're here.

[29:19] ♪ Musical number ♪

[30:42] Tommy: I mean, what's your experience with Greek mythology? Have you seen Disney's Hercules?

[30:50] Jimi: We'll put the gladden gladiator. I find Greek mythology fascinating. It's definitely, I mean, it's pretty well studied just in American elementary curriculum.

[31:00] Tommy: Is that the same across the sea?

[31:07] Jimi: Not really. No, there's no, no, we do Egypt. We do Egypt, but we don't really do.

[31:14] Tommy: No, we do Greek and Roman mythology and, you know, the differences and similarities between the two. Like at my Chicago school, there was a, I think it was fourth grade Greek play every year. And it was wonderful.

[31:24] Jimi: Wow.

[31:24] Tommy: Yeah, it was great. The whole, the whole class and like, they'd split into groups and, you know, they'd be like, I am Zeus Thunderbolt. And like,

[31:29] Jimi: Oh, so you're not, they're not like doing Medea.

[31:35] Tommy: No, no, no, no. They are doing their own age appropriate adaptations of Greek mythology.

[31:43] Jimi: Which was always funny because every, well, and they're so violent and naughty and like filled with sex. And so they would have these moments would be like, and then the two got married and suddenly there was a baby, which like, it is so funny to watch like fourth graders, do things like that.

[32:01] Tommy: That's brilliant. That's really, really good. Cause we, the only time I did any sort of Greek theater was when we took a drama trip out to Greece and we did a bit of a module there, but it wasn't, you know, that wasn't part of the curriculum.

[32:19] Jimi: No, I think it's absurd because come on, it's pretty heavy here. Like I would not be surprised if Greek myths is one of those facts that every adult has forgotten. Like at some point in your life in America, you've been exposed to this and have proximal knowledge of some of the Greek stories. And then certainly being a theater major, you know, you start theater history with Greek and Roman theater.

[32:44] Tommy: Right. As you should, as you should, but we do not over here get that changed education people. Um, but yeah, so I, I am obsessed. We could do in our clever primary seven. I don't know what that is for you guys. Just before you go into middle school, what would you wait?

[33:01] Jimi: Okay. So maybe like 10, 10.

[33:01] Tommy: Yeah. Yeah. So we get to do this thing, um, where you get to choose your own like projects, um, and you get to do all your research and map it all out. So I did mine on Greek mythology and it was literally, it's my magnum opus, you know, it's been downhill ever since.

[33:22] Jimi: Absolutely. I totally peaked. Um, anyway, I've always been obsessed. And in particular with this one, um, I read, you know, I mean, I was reading everything about it when I was probably far too young to understand anything, but it just seemed so beautiful and, um, just such a nice, interesting story.

[33:40] Tommy: Yeah.

[33:40] Jimi: Um, that I was just really, really taken. Well, um, I, and I I'm, tell me if I'm remembering my Greek history correctly, but I believe the tale of Orpheus and Eurydice is one of the earliest surviving like tragedies.

[33:52] Tommy: Yeah. It's actually quite interesting. See, in terms of its origins, um, it's, it's actually not, nobody really knows where it came from. Nobody really knows who Orpheus was exactly. He pops up a couple of times, um, in a couple of different settings. So some people say, um, that he was one of the people who worshipped Dionysus and followed in that band. Um, other people say that he was the son of one of the Muses, Calliope. Um, and that explains why he's so gifted with music, you know, there's, there's lots of different origin stories for Orpheus.

[34:34] Jimi: Yeah.

[34:34] Tommy: Um, but the one thing that sticks is this story with Eurydice.

[34:40] Jimi: Yeah.

[34:40] Tommy: Um, but yeah, I think I find it really, really interesting. Um, the diversion that Anais has taken with this story.

[34:49] Jimi: Yeah.

[34:49] Tommy: Um, and it's, you know, being a Greek mythology purist like myself, um, I'm a little bit like, ah, because the, the kind of idea of their love is that it is very strong. Um, and it's, you know, kind of this love for the ages.

[35:03] Jimi: Right.

[35:03] Tommy: Um, they set it up in the exact same way that it's set up in the myth.

[35:10] Jimi: Right.

[35:10] Tommy: Um, you know, he charms her. She's a, Eurydice, which I don't think actually gets talked about much in the musical, but she's a, um, uh, uh, like a wood nymph.

[35:20] Jimi: Yes.

[35:20] Tommy: Um, I don't know. I think, no. And the musical blurs the lines between mythical creature and person all the way through, especially with like, um, Hades.

[35:36] Jimi: Um, yeah. And even like the fates, like the question is, are, are these fantasical peoples? But I think that's further down in our list of things to talk about, but I don't know if they talk about that. I can't remember. I mean, obviously she has the song flowers in the second act, which is, you know, very right.

[35:51] Tommy: Um, but anyway, so she's stunningly beautiful and she's a nymph. Um, and Orpheus is like, I can get you because that's how talented I am. And he's very correct. The man could make stones dance.

[36:08] Jimi: Yeah. Can you do that?

[36:08] Tommy: If I throw him hard enough.

[36:12] Jimi: Right. Um, and that's, that's one of the reasons how they explain standing stones as well. So they would dance and then when he would stop playing, they would just fall in a circle and that is great. That's wonderful. But so the, the big intro change between the canonical myth, let's say, and Hadestown is that in the myth, Eurydice is bitten by a, what, a serpent, a snake?

[36:33] Tommy: Yeah. Venomous snake.

[36:33] Jimi: And dies tragically and accidentally.

[36:40] Tommy: Yes. And that is where the, the huge tragedy comes from. And that's where Orpheus is like, Oh no, my love, I can't be without her. Cause it was on their wedding day that she died. She was running away from, uh, one of Apollo's sons called Aristaeus. Um, and so that's, you know, just to amp up that really Greek tragic feeling.

[37:03] Jimi: Whereas in Hadestown, she has perhaps a little more agency over herself.

[37:09] Tommy: Exactly. Which, you know, in our storytelling and the things that we love, that's really great. And the idea is that, you know, he's told her, he's kind of shown her this world through his music and being like, isn't the world beautiful? And as the winter creeps in, she's like, honey, that music don't pay no bills. So she kind of goes off in search of something more and finds Hades, who is also in search of something more, someone who will kind of appreciate him a bit more. And they sort of find each other and he charms her into going with him into the underworld.

[37:52] Jimi: It is interesting in a bunch of the reviews I was paging through, both of the New York Theatre Workshop production and the Citadel production, that one of the things that comes up a lot are, is the implied relationship between Orpheus and Eurydice, and that either it somehow doesn't ring strong enough for you to care, or like, you don't understand why Orpheus would follow her to the underworld because it doesn't seem like he loved her that much until she was gone. And that only pops up here and there in a couple reviews and seems, you know, I don't know, fixable somehow.

[38:28] Tommy: I think it is tricky because all you really do, all you really see, excuse me, is him wooing her, them talking about marriage and her being like, well, where's my ring? And then they have a fight. So it's not, you're not like, oh, this is a love for the ages, you know, as it was before.

[38:45] Jimi: It is a, it's a structure problem because like, you want to get to the meat of the story as fast as possible. And like, you can't spend too much time, you know, too much, nothing can kill a show like too much exposition.

[39:00] Tommy: Totally. But to be honest, see for me, all I think I would be happy with is just, you know, Hermes being like, these guys are madly in love. Like their love was a love for them. You just need to say it. You just need to say it somewhere. And I think that will just kind of clinch it.

[39:16] Jimi: Yeah. Because like you say, and I think there's an interview that Anais did where she was like, obviously not everyone knows this myth. And for those people, it probably would be great. You got to expose it a little bit. I mean, you could even play it up a little more, especially since we're diverging from the canonical myth, like maybe Eurydice and Orpheus's love is one for the ages and Hades, who currently is in the doghouse in his current relationship, and you know, he's a mean person, doesn't like that. And so you can play up his maliciousness in seducing Eurydice.

[39:56] Tommy: Targeting her like, if I can't be happy, no one else can.

[39:56] Jimi: Yeah. Like I think little tweaks like that would go a long way towards biggening up the story while still maintaining a lot of the great same feelings. And I think it's just another bit that I find kind of tricky is that obviously when she goes down, you don't really see the payoff that Hades got there and he just seems, well, I'm happy now, even though it's not like they're in love.

[40:22] Tommy: Yeah. She doesn't have a good reason to go down and he doesn't have a good reason to want her there.

[40:25] Jimi: Yeah. And they never really interacted, but he doesn't really want her to leave for different reasons. The same reasons in the original myth, where it's like, people can't leave the underworld. You can't come back to life. That's messing with the order of things. So that's also there, but there's no sense of, I brought you down here for a reason.

[40:45] Tommy: Yeah. You get little bits and pieces in the abstract bit in Little Songbird, like I could use a canary, but it doesn't pay off in a big way, which I wanted to.

[40:59] Jimi: I think so. I think it's either you need to, you need to stop the kind of searching thing that he has at the end of, I want to say, Chant. Mm-hmm. It's hard to remember the names of these songs, but that sounds right. Yeah. I think it's the Chant… Chant 1. Where him and Persephone… Yeah, it is, because they're having the argument, and he's like, well, if you don't want me, I'll go find someone else who does. I think either just scrap that, um, or make more of it. Right. Because it's, it's, it's, I don't know, it's just, it doesn't, you don't get a payoff there. The, the, the play between these two couples is, I think, what makes Hadestown is one of the things that makes the, like, core story of Hadestown interesting and fascinating and different from the original myth.

Yeah. And anything that can play that up just a bit more? I think so. Yeah, like, play, yeah, play more interaction between them. Yeah. Um, because once he gets down there, um, obviously, um, blah blah blah blah, Eurydice has her moment of being like, what have I done? Uh, you know, and she starts to forget. Mm. But there's no, you know, you don't see much in the way of Eurydice interacting with, say, Persephone. Right. Um, yeah. And because they are obviously this, you know, they're, yeah, members of each other. Right. Um, so I don't know, just, just something. Yeah. I think that would be, that would do well to bulk up the show. My fear for this show, Jimmy, is that it's going to be a show with wonderful music and a confusing plot.

And that's the, you know, the lowest common denominator audience that we expect in Broadway is going to get confused by the plot so much that they can't appreciate the songs. Um. Yeah. Which is, is a big pity because, like, this is it, is what we're doing. We're totally nitpicking. Like, we're getting. Right. Exactly. Like, overall, it's fabulous. Absolutely. Um, so it's, it's, it's tricky because you don't want to alienate people from what has, what is some really interesting material. Right. Has a lot to say. Yeah. And, um. And not to say that you need to dumb down the whole thing. But Great Comet needed, like, the kindergarten recitation of all the characters at the beginning of the show.

You know, you're going to have to study up a little bit. Um. Yep. And I think through the incarnations that you can see, Hadestown is getting there and needs, you know, one more shove in a couple of places. Yep. Um, so I think I don't, I have a lot of faith. And to be honest though, if, if the music didn't hugely change and it went on now, it wouldn't be awful and it would still be great. Cause I still love it as it is. I just think there are just little bits that. Like tweaking and tuning. Yeah. Tweaking. But what doesn't? Hamilton needs that. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it started off Broadway and then changed when it moved on Broadway. Right. So, you know what I mean? We'll see. I do want to talk about, and maybe, maybe there'll be a musical interlude here, but the difference between setting and concept when it comes to this show.

Yeah. Um, this came up in a bunch of reviews as well. Um, where some critics were really put off by the lack of established setting. Um, especially some Canadian critics, um, which I found so fascinating because I'm not, um, and I don't think the setting is ambiguous, but I think it's an interesting discussion between setting and concept and whether the specifically like the 1920s, 1930s, you know, Southern America railroad line kind of workman's idea that surrounds the show is a setting for it where it takes place or is a concept that surrounds the plot that's happening. And I think the, the differences between the two are subtle and important and like accepting it as a concept lets you kind of hand wave some of the needless details that should be there if it were instead a setting, if that makes sense.

[45:15] Tommy: Yeah, I do. I, yeah, but I'm trying to think what I, what I think. I don't know. I just think it's a given. I don't, I don't question it because it's so it's not, it's not a naturalistic story that we're telling here. Right. So I don't, I don't know. I, I've never taken an issue with it and it was something that I was quite surprised that critics focused on. Um, and I wonder if they were just like going by the book, like this was their setting set up song. It was a bit confusing. So therefore, well, you know what I mean? I wonder looking at the, the theater workshop production versus the Citadel production and the Citadel production certainly expanded a little bit and was in a bigger space. And I wonder if this is a difference in production design.

Um, I do think that's where it comes in. If they're building up more pieces of the set or there's actual railroad tracks on stage or the costumes change and those sorts of things, rightly so, because that's what a, you know, anyone in the technical design aspects would do are heading more towards setting territory. And that can confuse things when the plot is perhaps more firmly established in like concept territory.

[46:28] Jimi: Yeah. Yeah. I think so. I think so if you're not really aware, um, the biggest difference between the New York theater workshop production and the Citadel production in Canada, um, is that in New York theater, it was very great comic-esque. It was immersive. Um, the cast were running all around you, uh, and it took place just completely in the rounds. Um, and the costumes were contemporary and there weren't a lot of set pieces and yeah. And it was, it was very stripped back. Um, whereas in Edmonton, it was much more of a production. Yeah. You're on a cross arch, which is huge. Um, and you know, I think they kept the tree, um, and they added a bunch more. There were turntables in the stage and the costumes got a little more fanciful.

Yes. Or a little more concept-y. Yeah. You know what I mean? A little more, oh, there's a, there's a reason behind that. Right. Yeah. And I wonder how that, you know, how that rings and if there's some, some incongruency there between the text and the design. And I think this is actually something that kind of annoys me because it's this kind of upscaling that Broadway demands. Yes. Yeah. Right. And for something, so say for something like Comet, obviously it started off small and it rustic, but the thing that was fine with Comet was that it was a show about opulence. Right. Um, and so it made sense to scale up and you could, you know, you could go wild with it. Yeah. Whereas this show is set in a wasteland.

Yeah. So how do you scale up nothing? Well, and it, and it feels like the, you know, the, the truism that you have to scale up on Broadway is a limiting factor and that shows that do it well, don't actually scale up. Like I think of the, the current Circle in the Square, um, yeah. Once on this Island revival, which is, you know, generally I might call bigger in some ways, but it's not bigger. Like cats is bigger, you know, like they tried really hard to make things different and interesting and intimate, but it is still a very personal, individual production. Um, and it feels like maybe the Citadel production of Hadestown went more for the sparkles and the big bangs.

[48:53] Jimi: I think so. And I just don't know if it, I just don't know if it needs it. Right. Um, or just, yeah, no, I just, I just don't think it does. I don't know. Maybe not whether it needs it, but I don't know if it serves it. I think that's, yeah, that's the dichotomy because it might need it to sell. Right. Why do I want to go see this if they're not going to fly all over the room? I know, but it's just, it really frustrates me, Tommy, because like you look at something like Frozen, right. It's just opened and what is that, how much is that costing us? Like four gazillion dollars. Oh, and money. I thought you meant in like pieces of my soul. Emotion. Um, Oh, but the way sidebar is not changed. I know my friend Graham just went to see it.

The wonderful YouTube comments I've been combing through them and it's all the same and it's the exact same. Depresses me deeply. Anyway, another, maybe when I get back to making videos. Yeah, exactly. Um, but yeah, so something that Frozen, like no one can compete with that. And it's a shame that people are being forced to compete with that because to be honest, that isn't why I go to theater. It almost puts me off. Like it literally kind of puts me off. Um, I go, I call me old fashioned. I go to theater for the theater. I sound like a wank, but like, that's what, that's what I want to go and see. I don't care about turnstiles. I think it is the worst, the worst travesty of the world that I think we will harp on until we die, but great comment proved that you can do it right.

Great comment proved that you can take this intimacy and intellectualism and high concept and art and translate into translated into an accessible opulent big Broadway house that sells as long as you push, put Josh Groban's face on the playbill and still stays true to the art. And I worry that Hadestown is going to get lost in the shuffle. I know. And that's the thing, because if, if this is the thing that makes it not fly off, if this is the thing that people end up having a problem with, I'll be so angry because they've just been backed into a corner that they need to do this. Because the thing is, is Hadestown would be perfect in circle in the square. Yeah. It would be so perfect and it doesn't need much at all to do.

Nope. Ah, it would just, it would just be, ah, it's, I find it really distressing because yeah, the, the, the signs aren't pointing to the fact that they'll go back to NYTW style. It looks like they're trying to grow, they're trying to big, bigify and, and yeah, no, we're nervous for you, Hadestown. We have hopes for you, but we're nervous.

[51:27] ♪ Musical number: "Way Down Hadestown" — performed by Anaïs Mitchell ♪

[52:39] Jimi: The other thing I wanted to mention, and I, and it is interesting that you talked about Rachel Chavkin mentioning that people don't know this myth as well. And I think it is a fascinating story concept that shows up in musical theater a lot, because we live in the world of adaptation, is the idea of a predetermined destiny musical. This is the Murder, She Wrote Murder Mystery versus the Columbo Murder Mystery again. It comes up all the time, but like, do you know how it ends? And is the audience along for the ride or are they figuring it out as we go? And I think Greek mythology is built to be like these kind of destiny stories, like the ending is determined before we start. But what is lovely about this show is that it plays it up and capitalizes on it.

And with the musical revisions from concept album, it uses it to turn it into a happy ending. And we zoom out from the metatheatricality of it all to talk about what a journey to tell this story that you know is going to be a tragedy again, thinking that this time it might turn out different. I think Hermes has a line similar to that at the end of the show. And it is beautiful in construct and beautiful in idea too. It really gets me like it's one of those goosebump inducing moments at the end every time.

[54:07] Tommy: Absolutely. Yeah, it's just really, it's so poignant. It's kind of filled with this tragedy of like, I don't want to put him through that again, but we almost need those stories. Because I feel like how many films do we have that we would just watch, even though they could be so sad or they have these moments, but we still go through that because you need that journey, you need that emotional journey. Right. I mean, that's the plot of Pippin, like almost to its

[54:40] Jimi: And it is, there's something very human about it, and like, intentionally troubling about it, which I really, which, you know, tickles me in an interesting way.

[54:52] Tommy: But I do wonder, like, that is a change that was made between concept album and musical.

[54:58] Jimi: Yeah, this didn't exist at all.

[55:00] Tommy: Right, they give it a happy ending. And, you know, my gut reaction out of context with that sort of thing would be negative, but I really enjoy it in this show.

[55:11] Jimi: Yeah, I mean, the thing is, so all of the adaptations of Orpheus and Eurydice, and there's so many of them scattered across art, but for example, the operas have a happy ending.

[55:24] Tommy: I can't remember which one it is, I don't know if it's Orpheus or whether it's just Orpheus and Eurydice, but one of them, like, the gods intervene and make it all better.

[55:34] Jimi: And there's also, there's stories of the myth where Orpheus immediately dies after Eurydice disappears through the cave and they're reunited in Hades.

[55:44] Tommy: Yes, exactly.

[55:45] Jimi: And none of that plays that sort of thing out.

[55:46] Tommy: None of that happens. So Orpheus's death is actually documented. Well, documented in the sense that, you know, the myth.

[55:53] Jimi: It links back to this idea that he may have been one of Dionysus's followers, but the Maenads who were Dionysus's followers after Eurydice died, he hated their frivolity and he hated the fact that they would be, you know, making love with whoever they want. You know, Orpheus was like our first big champion of monogamy in Greek culture.

[56:15] Tommy: And so he started to talk against Dionysus.

[56:25] Jimi: And so the Maenads tore him limb from limb and threw his head in the river. And that's the last you hear of him. You know, there is no ending. That's what you get.

[56:37] Tommy: And so people really mess with this ending. And it does. It is interesting how then now that like Hades is kind of humanized in this show and how it changes how he looks like him and Persephone have that conversation about you let them go.

[56:52] Jimi: And in the end, I let them try, which is not. That's that's different.

[56:59] Tommy: You know, that's not. Well, I don't know.

[57:04] Jimi: So I think it's funny that you brought up Hercules at the beginning, because I think Western culture, Catholic culture has kind of changed and bastardized what and who Hades is because they've superimposed him on the ideal of the devil.

[57:23] Tommy: And Hades is not the devil. Hades is the caretaker of the underworld.

[57:25] Jimi: And is certainly mischievous and certainly has, you know, he was, correct me if I'm wrong, banished there.

[57:34] Tommy: No, he actually wasn't.

[57:36] Jimi: Really?

[57:37] Tommy: You've got that from Disney's Hercules.

[57:39] Jimi: That's Catholic propaganda.

[57:41] Tommy: Exactly. No. So the reason that Hades is the ruler of the underworld, him, his brothers Poseidon and Zeus basically drew straws for who got to own which part of the world.

[57:58] Jimi: So Zeus obviously got to own the Earth and Mount Olympus. Poseidon got the seas and Hades drew the short straw and got the underworld.

[58:08] Tommy: Right.

[58:09] Jimi: And it's quite interesting because a lot of, kind of through Greek mythology, Hades is a little bit bitter.

[58:18] Tommy: Right.

[58:19] Jimi: But all that, you know, if you look through the story, it's just because this happened at the beginning. He was drawn the short straw.

[58:25] Tommy: Right.

[58:26] Jimi: It wasn't his fault. He is not unjustified evil.

[58:29] Tommy: Exactly.

[58:30] Jimi: Nor is the underworld hell.

[58:35] Tommy: No.

[58:36] Jimi: It's where you go when you die.

[58:38] Tommy: Exactly.

[58:39] Jimi: So there's many different parts of the underworld.

[58:41] Tommy: Yeah.

[58:42] Jimi: We've got the main one where most people go, where, for example, where Eurydice is. And I'd say where this takes place-ish, I guess, would be the fields of Asphodel, which is just a wasteland of shades.

[58:56] Tommy: But then you have places like the Elysian Fields or the Isles of the Blessed. And the kind of thing that comes closest to our version of hell, but actually in Greek mythology isn't talked about hugely, is Tartarus, which is their place where the really, really bad people go.

[59:15] Jimi: Yeah.

[59:16] Tommy: But very rarely is someone really, really bad in Greek mythology.

[59:20] Jimi: In Greek mythology.

[59:21] Tommy: And so they're not sent there.

[59:22] Jimi: Yeah. And certainly we're seeing in Hadestown kind of a blending of these two. The bastardized, Disneyfied Hades is the devil kind of concept.

[59:35] Tommy: You either get to hell or to Hadestown. There ain't no difference anymore. It's in the lyrics.

[59:40] Jimi: But you also then get to see these kind of humanizations of Hades, which is cool and challenging and interesting.

[59:52] Tommy: When you superimpose that on the story of Hades and Persephone and like, are we going to try? It's the same. Every year they have this fight.

[1:00:00] Jimi: We're going to sing it again. She's going to go up again and then she's going to come back down again and they're going to fight again.

[1:00:06] Tommy: But you know what? Let's try it again because maybe this time it'll be different.

[1:00:09] Jimi: Exactly. That is cool and deep and interesting. And a good contemporary twist on this myth that pulls from a lot of its classical underpinnings, but very clearly sets it in and about some contemporary ideas.

[1:00:28] Tommy: Absolutely.

[1:00:29] Jimi: It's quite interesting because Greek mythology doesn't often talk again about Hades and Persephone after their initial stories being told.

[1:00:40] Tommy: Right.

[1:00:42] Jimi: I said I was going to keep doing it. I'm just going to keep doing it.

[1:00:45] Tommy: So Persephone is the daughter of Demeter, who was the goddess of basically the earth and the harvest. And Hades basically kidnapped her because he was in love with her, which is talked about in Epic Three, I think.

[1:01:06] Jimi: And took her down to the underworld. And then Demeter was really upset. And this is kind of, again, the explanation for why we have the seasons.

[1:01:13] Tommy: Right.

[1:01:14] Jimi: So she was very upset and kind of refused to tend to the earth because she was in search of her daughter. And the gods were like, we really, really need some crops on the earth because everyone's dying. So if you want to get back to work.

[1:01:26] Tommy: So they compromised with Hades to get Persephone to come back.

[1:01:34] Jimi: But, and this is where my pomegranate just comes in. She'd eaten the fruit of the dead, which was the pomegranate. I think she ate six pomegranate seeds.

[1:01:44] Tommy: And so Hades is like, well, sorry, there's nothing I can do. She's eaten the fruit of the dead. She has to stay here.

[1:01:51] Jimi: So they made a compromise whereby she would go down for like, well, six months in this show. But I think it was four months. And then go back up into the world for the rest of the year.

[1:02:04] Tommy: And that's how we get the seasons.

[1:02:06] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:02:07] Tommy: And the song Living It, Living It Up.

[1:02:09] Jimi: Exactly. That's how we get the song. That's what they really intended. But yes.

[1:02:15] Tommy: And all that to say, that story you hear all about. But what happens next?

[1:02:20] Jimi: You don't.

[1:02:21] Tommy: You just see people coming in and interacting with them. For example, Orpheus and Eurydice. Orpheus came in, he charmed Persephone before he got, and she was the one that persuaded Hades. And they very much have a relationship.

[1:02:30] Jimi: But it's not a relationship that you hear about. And it's an interesting thing to think about. Like, oh, well, what happened next? Like, how does this function?

[1:02:42] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:02:44] Jimi: So the way that these two couples are connected in this story is beautiful.

[1:02:53] Tommy: I think it's really beautiful.

[1:02:55] Jimi: And very poignant. Like, there's a play, I don't know if you've ever come across it. It's one that we study. It's called Lovers.

[1:03:00] Tommy: I don't know that one.

[1:03:03] Jimi: It's by Brian Friel, who's an Irish playwright.

[1:03:06] Tommy: Okay.

[1:03:07] Jimi: And basically it's called Lovers, Winners, and Losers.

[1:03:11] Tommy: Okay.

[1:03:12] Jimi: Lovers, Winners, and Losers. And it's two plays, or two acts. The first one, called Winners, is about two youngsters who are in Catholic school.

[1:03:28] Tommy: She's fallen pregnant.

[1:03:31] Jimi: And so they're kind of working out how this is going to work. And they end up dying. You don't know whether they've killed themselves or whether they've just died. You don't really know. But they end up dead.

[1:03:45] Tommy: And then in the second act, you've got Losers, which sees a couple that could very much be these two. But 20 years down the line, where they were kind of forced together through whatever means. And it just shows how they're just grating against each other.

[1:04:05] Jimi: And this idea of, even though they died, they're still winners because they got out of this early.

[1:04:10] Tommy: Right.

[1:04:11] Jimi: This future that could befall them.

[1:04:13] Tommy: Absolutely.

[1:04:14] Jimi: And I just feel like it's really similar. It's a really similar story to what we've got here.

[1:04:19] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:04:20] Jimi: Because the thing is, in that little section right at the end, between Persephone and Hades, about just that, well, all we can do is try. It's just so sad.

[1:04:32] Tommy: It's really sad.

[1:04:33] Jimi: And then it segues into, wait for me, I'm coming home.

[1:04:37] Tommy: It's good.

[1:04:38] Jimi: It's that ending moment of Great Comet, contractually obligated, where if you've listened to the whole show all together, and you reach that moment, it is so much bigger than that particular moment right there.

[1:04:53] Tommy: And there's almost this idea, I don't know, that if they made it out, then it maybe would have given Hades and Persephone a bit of hope that love wins.

[1:05:05] Jimi: It's that idea.

[1:05:06] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:05:07] Jimi: But they didn't, so they're like, oh well, back to the drawing board.

[1:05:12] Tommy: Or does Orpheus love Eurydice so much that he can't help but turn around in that final moment because he can't get over his doubts about a future life without her.

[1:05:24] Jimi: Exactly.

[1:05:25] Tommy: It's deep stuff.

[1:05:27] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:05:28] Tommy: Yep.

[1:05:29] Jimi: Yeah, that's why, well done.

[1:05:33] Tommy: And I think that's, see, because she's done that, because she's taken this really, really strong conceit of comparing the two couples, that's why I don't mind the differences.

[1:05:42] Jimi: Right.

[1:05:43] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:05:44] Jimi: Because it's a good story. She's still telling a story. She's using the myth to tell a story, which I think is really great.

[1:05:50] Tommy: And she did say, this was I think from her press release about the initial concept album, that she didn't write with the story first. That a bunch of the songs came first, and then that led her to the myth, and kind of crafting them around the myth.

[1:06:07] Jimi: And I think that when you look at the final product through that lens, it rings very true. This is not, how do we adapt this myth into a concept album or a musical? It's, she wrote some songs and then fit them around a story.

[1:06:22] Tommy: Totally.

[1:06:23] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:06:24] Tommy: So I think now would be a great time to talk about that story.

[1:06:28] Jimi: Let's talk about the musical.

[1:06:30] Tommy: I've not really done that yet.

[1:06:33] Jimi: Hey!

[1:06:34] Tommy: That's going to be the subtitle for this podcast.

[1:06:36] Jimi: Let's talk about the musical.

[1:06:38] Tommy: Where are you?

[1:06:41] Jimi: Where are you now?

[1:06:48] Tommy: And kills the light.

[1:06:52] Jimi: Down comes in and chills the air.

[1:06:59] Tommy: Down comes in and the false silence.

[1:07:06] Jimi: Says no, you aren't there.

[1:07:12] Tommy: Where are you?

[1:07:15] Jimi: Where are you now?

[1:07:20] Tommy: I see us.

[1:07:23] Jimi: You're shivering.

[1:07:26] Tommy: Okay, first things first, a discussion point for us. And I'm interested to hear what the listeners also think about this, to be honest.

[1:07:34] Jimi: So, one of the things that makes me love this musical are the actors in this musical.

[1:07:44] Tommy: Okay, what do you mean by that?

[1:07:47] Jimi: So what I mean by that is, Damon, I don't know how to say his last name. I want to say Dono. That's probably wrong.

[1:07:55] Tommy: Maybe.

[1:07:56] Jimi: The guy playing Orpheus.

[1:07:58] Tommy: The original Orpheus.

[1:08:01] Jimi: Yeah, the guy playing Orpheus on the cast recording. B, I think it might be B, I don't know, I'm so sorry. I should have researched that.

[1:08:07] Tommy: The woman playing Eurydice on the cast recording. Patrick Page, Amber Gray, all these people using their voices to tell their story.

[1:08:19] Jimi: Make this sensational? Because if I listened, if I only had the Anaïs Mitchell concept album with her and the guy from Bon Iver and other people, or if I only had, they've not made it, but if they ever made a Reeve Carney recording, I wouldn't like the show as much.

[1:08:34] Tommy: Yeah, I agree. And I find that very, very interesting, because... Even just considering Patrick Page, because clearly he's one of the through lines through this thing.

[1:08:50] Jimi: Yeah. His... Oh man. And I did a bunch of Patrick Page research, which required watching a bunch of Spider-Man: Turn Off the Dark songs.

[1:09:02] Tommy: I'm so sorry for you.

[1:09:03] Jimi: I'm so sorry. Oh, it is such an interesting experience.

[1:09:06] Tommy: Why didn't you just do Hunchback? That's much easier.

[1:09:10] Jimi: Yeah, but Spider-Man just seemed more contemporary. And, you know, a villain character. I guess Hunchback is similar too. But it's okay. Anyway, like, he is clearly cast in this show because of the idiosyncrasies of his voice. Everyone is.

[1:09:26] Tommy: Like, it is clear that is a, you know, when the casting agents are going out, they're looking for people with, you know, the voice, whatever that may be. And the way to, like, craft their voice around these words. And I think this is an underappreciated art form in contemporary musical theatre, or maybe even just in musical theatre.

[1:09:46] Jimi: Like, we don't often appreciate the... Have you... This is a thing they do in America, where there are different places you can go and you can get the, like, misshapen produce at the supermarket.

[1:09:58] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:09:59] Jimi: Like, you know, you can get the apples that don't look quite right. Or, you know, like, but have character to them. And the point is, like, they're just as good. They still make a terrific pie.

[1:10:11] Tommy: Exactly. And I think, not that any of these people are awful singers, they're wonderful singers, but they have unique and interesting characteristics about their voice that is so much more interesting than the traditional Jonas Brothers sound.

[1:10:29] Jimi: Yeah. Or just the traditional, it's still trained, I've been to Juilliard, and I can sing.

[1:10:36] Tommy: Right. Like, that style. Like, it's, yeah, it's so, yeah, like you say, it's very idiosyncratic. And obviously, like, this is a thing, this is a thing with Broadway. In any cast recording, you will get that moment of you're the originals, or you originated a moment that we have picked you to be in this cast recording.

[1:11:01] Jimi: Yeah. But if you think of something like Wicked, for example, right, you know, I know that Idina Menzel isn't my favourite Elphaba.

[1:11:07] Tommy: Right.

[1:11:08] Jimi: You know, but like, there's not, I think, it almost feels like there's three different levels to it, right? Of characters on Broadway.

[1:11:21] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:11:22] Jimi: Someone like Elphaba, where you sing the songs as good as you can.

[1:11:27] Tommy: Yep.

[1:11:27] Jimi: And Elphaba just sounds like a person. Then you have something like, oh, anything from Guys and Dolls to SpongeBob, where there's a character voice to it.

[1:11:34] Tommy: Okay, yeah.

[1:11:35] Jimi: You know, where you are intentionally putting on a, like, it's a choice. You know, when Nathan Lane sings in Guys and Dolls, he still is adjusting his voice to be Nathan Detroit.

[1:11:52] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:11:53] Jimi: And he sounds different than he does in The Producers, a little bit. But I do think Nathan Lane also often fits into this third category of people whose interesting voices become the character.

[1:12:04] Tommy: You know, Max Bialystock is interesting because Nathan Lane sings him.

[1:12:11] Jimi: Yeah. Nathan Lane isn't out there recording cabaret solo albums.

[1:12:19] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:12:20] Jimi: Because people want to listen to the greatest hits of Nathan Lane.

[1:12:23] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:12:23] Jimi: You know, I think some people have capitalized on this, like maybe like Liza Minnelli. But not someone perhaps like Patti LuPone, or maybe even like Bernadette Peters. I think she's right on the border there. But like, you have a unique voice, and that's able to shine through in this media.

[1:12:43] Tommy: I think folk and Broadway have that in common, or folk and musical theatre have that in common. Like, you can have a unique voice and use it. I don't know. But I just think what my worry is, is like, so I've heard Reeve Carney singing a bit of this show, and I'm not interested.

[1:13:01] Jimi: And to be honest, it's not that I don't like Reeve Carney. I actually think he's a really good singer. But for me, I'm like, oh, he's not Damon. And that, I think, is really challenging.

[1:13:16] Tommy: Because you then almost have this responsibility to find someone. And if you're a casting director, you need to find someone that kind of captures that voice in a really similar way.

[1:13:23] Jimi: Because who is going to play this other than Patrick Page?

[1:13:29] Tommy: Right, exactly. Like, that's the problem. We don't have many basses on Broadway, especially any that are as characteristic as someone like Patrick Page. And that's going to be something that they're really going to have to be careful of.

[1:13:42] Jimi: Yeah. So if you take someone like Lucas Steele, right? Iconic voice, absolutely iconic. But his understudy, can't remember his name really bad. I might just record it and slice it in later. His understudy, equally great.

[1:14:03] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:14:04] Jimi: So maybe I don't even know what my point is here. But it's just that what they've done, they've just basically, everything's kind of come together and it's beautiful and kind of perfect.

[1:14:11] Tommy: And it probably will never be as good as it was in the New York Theatre Workshop.

[1:14:16] Jimi: Unless they find someone that can do what Damon can do, or better, can do what Patrick can do, or better.

[1:14:22] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:14:23] Jimi: Yeah, it's going to be a big challenge. But for me, someone like Reeve Carney, he doesn't cut it. It's not, you don't, you don't fall in love with the character the same way. You don't go on the journey the same way.

[1:14:33] Tommy: Yeah, it's like making a band. You have to, all the pieces have to fit in an interesting way. And it's really difficult to swap out one person with another.

[1:14:41] Jimi: Yep. So yeah, it's tricky. It's tricky. And like, because I can hear me listening to this cast recording for the rest of time. I'd be happy to do that because the voices in there are so beautiful.

[1:14:58] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:14:59] Jimi: If they release another one, I wouldn't listen. I mean, that's the thing is, I just wouldn't, I wouldn't listen to it.

[1:15:05] Tommy: Yeah, you're already, you're already sold.

[1:15:06] Jimi: I mean, I wonder if that plays, if that harkens back to our talk about the journey. Like, this has been simmering for so long. I hope it hasn't simmered out already.

[1:15:17] Tommy: I know. That's like, risky, risky.

[1:15:19] Jimi: But yeah, so anyway, I said we're going to talk about the musical and we've yet to, yet to do that still. Can I, can I talk about some lyric things that are very clearly ingrained in this musical?

[1:15:31] Tommy: Yes, please do.

[1:15:32] Jimi: Because I'm ready to.

[1:15:34] Tommy: I'm ready to too.

[1:15:35] Jimi: I was pulling up my sleeves, but I realized that doesn't.

[1:15:39] Tommy: Useful for our audio medium of a podcast.

[1:15:41] Jimi: Jimi pulled up his sleeves.

[1:15:42] Jimi: Anaïs Mitchell does this thing with repetition in lyrics that is so cool where on its surface, it appears to be just a pure repetition, which exists, like that's a musical strategy all the time. Say it again to reinforce it.

[1:16:08] Tommy: But because of the way some of the words are truncated or changed, it changes or adapts the meaning of the lyric.

[1:16:13] Jimi: Like, if you want to keep your head, oh, you've got to keep your head low.

[1:16:22] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:16:23] Jimi: Right. Which both halves of that phrase have a different meaning. Or this one, and I wonder, I am convincing myself that this is one, but I don't know if it is. What you're going to do when the chips are down, now that the chips are down.

[1:16:41] Tommy: I know exactly what you mean.

[1:16:42] Jimi: Right. It's sung. It sounds like, you know, I'm going back and correcting the phrase I said, you know, what you're going to do when the chips are down. No, no, no, no. Now that the chips are down.

[1:16:55] Tommy: It's just like, I'm going to repeat chips are down. Chips are down.

[1:17:01] Jimi: Right. But at a closer reading, the question like, what, what was your plan? What was your plan for when everything's on the line? Now that everything's on the line?

[1:17:10] Tommy: And does that change it? Now that it's real, like the there's a real complex meaning implied in there that is so difficult to even explain that it's hard to make it exist outside of the words themselves.

[1:17:22] Jimi: My favorite living it, living it up, living it up on top because it's a triple version.

[1:17:29] Tommy: Right.

[1:17:30] Jimi: We're in exposition land of the show. So we're talking about a whole bunch of different things. The big one, living it up on top. We're having a great time on the surface, but we're also living it up. We're having a great time.

[1:17:39] Tommy: Or are we living it up on top?

[1:17:41] Jimi: Because then they also use up on top. We've got like every section of this phrase is used to different meaning.

[1:17:46] Tommy: Exactly.

[1:17:47] Jimi: And then even just the beginning, living it because pretty soon Eurydice will no longer be living it because she will be dead. And there's like some real deep foreshadowing going on there.

[1:18:04] Tommy: But taken on surface value, it sounds like the Macarena, you know, like we're repeating, repeating the word and that's all it means.

[1:18:10] Jimi: Exactly. Because I think what she's done here is, you know, the this idea of like, for example, in something like chant, where it almost harkens back to, you know, slave music, where it's this soulful, this repetition, repetition, easy, easy to pick up, easy to pass on.

[1:18:35] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:18:36] Jimi: She's kind of taken that and really put in an artistic tinge into it.

[1:18:41] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:18:42] Jimi: And it's so smart. Like, this is, this is, again, we're talking about outsiders. This is what outsiders need to do, because, you know, we really value the lyric on Broadway as much as a musical, as much as a storytelling thing, as well as an artistic thing.

[1:19:00] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:19:01] Jimi: And there's, you know what, there's some really good rhymes as well that I want to talk about.

[1:19:04] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:19:05] Jimi: Just specifically in Chant 2. So it's when Hades is going on about women and how to keep women. So he, oh, it's so good. He, the line is, shackle her from wrist to wrist with sterling silver bracelets.

[1:19:23] Tommy: And it's a half rhyme. Absolutely fine. We love half rhyme, but just the wrist to wrist bracelets and it's picking up on that syllabic thing is great.

[1:19:29] Jimi: He does it again in the next line. Feather pockets full of stones, precious ones, diamonds.

[1:19:43] Tommy: And again, half rhyme, but one, it's just, it's just great. Full of stones, diamonds, wrist to wrist bracelets. Like it's so smart.

[1:19:49] Jimi: I also think it is, it is so delicate and it is so difficult to find the ones that work because I really struggle with, um, did you think I'd be impressed with this neon metropolis?

[1:20:02] Tommy: That one bothers me a lot because it's the wrong accent on metropolis. Like it reads as forced.

[1:20:10] Jimi: Um, and I think is a, is a good example of like, and I think that's one poor example in a basket of a thousand.

[1:20:17] Tommy: Well, just even earlier on in Chant, you've just got some really simple, like now you know how it feels. Women are as slick as eels.

[1:20:27] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:20:28] Tommy: And you're like, that's very easy.

[1:20:29] Jimi: Yeah. But it's, it's effortless and it's not, it's not predictable in a way that I think a lot of musical theater rhyming is where, you know, like three lines before, oh, love, they're going to end in love. I, it's something, something love.

[1:20:45] Jimi: Jimmy has a point they meant to make earlier and he didn't, um, exactly what we're talking about in Road to Hell in the opening. Um, when we were talking about foreshadowing and you know how much of this is in the story, the very last line of, um, thing is a love song. It's a tale of love that never dies.

[1:21:01] Tommy: It's a love song about someone who tries.

[1:21:03] Jimi: I think the thing, because they, they really make a point of it. I think in your head, you're expecting the easy Broadway rhyme of, oh, they're just going to repeat dies.

[1:21:13] Tommy: Right.

[1:21:14] Jimi: But no, but they go to tries, tries, and then you're like, interesting. That whole stanza is beautiful and is a perfect like reprise.

[1:21:27] Tommy: Like, um, it's a, it's a sad song. It's a tragedy.

[1:21:30] Jimi: Yep. And just the way you can recraft that same paragraph with different intentions.

[1:21:38] Tommy: Absolutely.

[1:21:39] Jimi: Um, when I write my musical, recraft that same paragraph is going to be my internal rhyme. Well done. Beautiful. But also just like, you have to take your hat off there because she is rhyming Persephone. She is rhyming Eurydice.

[1:21:48] Tommy: Like there's some tricky names in here, guys.

[1:21:50] Jimi: Orpheus, you know, this is tricky work and she's doing it.

[1:21:56] Tommy: Oh, it's, it is beautiful. And it is.

[1:21:59] Tommy: This is the good work of the show. This is the gem that shines in the middle of it. And to make sure the rest of the show supports this work, that is the key. And this is what I mean about this. I couldn't give a rat's ass. I really couldn't give a rat's ass if Reeve Carney is spinning around on a revolve. I really don't care. What I want to hear is this. I don't want to be distracted. Yeah. Now, this is a show that could survive in the middle of a parking lot. Absolutely. And it should survive in the middle of a parking lot. Might even do better in the middle of a parking lot, or in a tent in the meatpacking district. Yes. But this is the crux of it. And I'm trying to... Jimmy and I have talked off mic about this sort of thing, but it's a concept that I'm really struggling to articulate well.

But because Broadway, and by attachment, musical theatre, is kind of a zero-sum game. There are only so many buildings you can do shows in. It gets really complicated when there's a price to entry for these things that involves confetti cannons. And it bothers us in a deep, deep way.

[1:23:06] Jimi: Totally. Because it's just unfair. And it's mirroring itself in the... I was about to say the real world. Obviously, Broadway is the real world. But as in, the down below is because Broadway is the pinnacle. Of course.

[1:23:19] Tommy: I feel like the West End, we've already lost the West End. It's a tourist trap, and that's all it's going to be. We're never going to get back from that, I don't think. But then you go up to the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. Let's just look at that one word, fringe, where you're supposed to have fringe theatre, and yet you've got touring companies coming in from the West End, coming up to doing shows in the fringe. And it's just not fair anymore. One of the, and I wish I could remember which one it was, but one of the academic articles I read on this very topic, talked very specifically about, are we going to need to look to the regional theatres for our good work? And I think we're very much seeing that.

Dear Evan Hansen, Be More Chill, Hadestown, are doing their workshops and their art making out of town, and in a way that's different than an out of town tryout. It's not like we're fixing it to get there. I think we're right on the border, we're in a grey area, but it's like, we're doing it here to see how it is. Not like we're prepping to go to Broadway.

[1:24:35] Jimi: Hamilton.

[1:24:36] Tommy: Yeah, I don't doubt Lin-Manuel expected, I've just killed it with In the Heights, I'm going to do well with this one. But it had a life in the public. Do you know what I mean?

[1:24:45] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:24:45] Tommy: It really had a life there.

[1:24:47] Jimi: Yeah, and it might have been done.

[1:24:50] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:24:50] Jimi: You know, all of these shows might have been like, and that's as far as it goes. And the thing is, it's like, that's fine, everyone. That's really okay, because it existed in that moment. That's what theatre is.

[1:25:02] Tommy: Yeah. But it's a shame that these good pieces of theatre don't have a home in what is supposed to be the hub and centre of musical theatre, Broadway theatre.

[1:25:13] Jimi: It's not even that they don't have a home, it's that they can't get a look in. Do you know what I mean? They can't reach a mass market, they can't get to be popular, because they don't have enough money. Stupid. Not what it's about, everyone.

[1:25:28] Tommy: But maybe, I mean, it's the canary in the coal mine, but maybe we're seeing it change with something like Great Comet. Like, up from nothing, and performed on the Tonys.

[1:25:39] Jimi: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, to be honest, though, I think where we could see a shift is if we look at something like Be More Chill. Because out of nowhere, it's came to life. Like, nowhere.

[1:25:52] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:25:54] Jimi: Whereas so many youngsters nowadays know exactly what that is. People are singing Michael in the Bathroom all over the shop. And that show has barely existed.

[1:26:05] Tommy: Yeah. No, it's a welcome change. Because for a while, people's favourite Broadway shows, I'm sorry, were Phantom and Cats, and Lion King, and Mary Poppins. And not to say anything specifically against these shows, but it starts to adapt and morph your idea of what Broadway theatre is. And knowing that Broadway theatre, or musical theatre, can be so many other things, is eye-opening and wonderful. And doesn't mean that it can't be Wicked or Frozen.

[1:26:42] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:26:42] Tommy: They should be other things, too.

[1:26:45] Jimi: Exactly. Get off my sofa.

[1:26:47] Tommy: I know, exactly.

[1:27:18] Jimi: My children, my children, how does the wall keep us free?

[1:27:28] Tommy: How does the wall keep us free? The wall keeps out the enemy.

[1:27:34] Jimi: And we build the wall to keep us free. That's why we build the wall.

[1:27:39] Tommy: We build the wall to keep us free.

[1:27:43] Jimi: Who do we call the enemy? My children, my children, who do we call the enemy?

[1:27:56] Tommy: Who do we call the enemy? The enemy is poverty.

[1:28:02] Jimi: And the wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free. That's why we build the wall. We build the wall to keep us free.

[1:28:15] Tommy: Oh dear. Well, no, we did start to talk a little bit about the artistry that Anaïs has created.

[1:28:25] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:28:25] Tommy: And I do just want to get into that a bit more, just in terms of what the show is actually talking about. Because like we said, obviously, it's this myth, but she's taking this myth and she's telling a story with it.

[1:28:37] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:28:38] Tommy: And I think it's really, really beautiful, the kind of ideas that she's talking about. Obviously, we've talked about the relationships comparison, but this kind of more macrocosmal, to use a really good word, idea of unity and togetherness and how important that is.

[1:29:00] Jimi: And how when we don't have that, it's that united we stand, divided we fall mentality.

[1:29:06] Tommy: Right.

[1:29:06] Jimi: And how when we don't have that, things go wrong. And it's just peppered through the whole show just so well.

[1:29:15] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:29:16] Jimi: You know, songs like Why We Build the Wall.

[1:29:19] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:29:20] Jimi: This idea of Hades trying to bring people together for a cause.

[1:29:24] Tommy: Right. It almost makes me, because every review mentions this, that the song Why We Build the Wall was written long before the most recent United States presidential election, and that it is pure coincidence that explicitly this became kind of a political commentary song. And it makes me a little sad that it became so overt because the song has the same commentary, whether or not it is related to Donald Trump wanting to build a wall on the border of the United States. And making it more hidden, I think, makes it more delightfully insidious. Whereas now you hear the song or you read the title and the playbill and you're like, oh yes, I understand.

[1:30:10] Tommy: This one's based on Trump. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:30:13] Jimi: Right. And you don't challenge yourself to analyse it. And think about Hades is trying really hard to do a good thing for these people.

[1:30:21] Tommy: That's exactly it, is that what I would say this song does better than a lot of other arguments that are happening in the real world. Is it showing both sides? Is it showing the other side? Is it showing this idea of like, if we can keep ourselves together, if I'm giving you this purpose, it might not necessarily be right, but it's working.

[1:30:43] Jimi: Yeah. If we have a them in the us and them defence, then suddenly we can be united. You know, it's the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

[1:30:51] Tommy: Exactly.

[1:30:52] Jimi: Or whatever that is.

[1:30:54] Tommy: It's that exact phrase.

[1:30:56] Jimi: I'm glad I said that.

[1:30:59] Tommy: I mean, it provides a discussion. It really, really does. And yeah, like you say, it's a shame that it's.

[1:31:05] Jimi: That it has become so overt because it would be more fun if it was like, oh.

[1:31:10] Tommy: I know. And it's what I find so interesting as well is that this is a construction completely by Anaïs herself. This isn't in the myth.

[1:31:16] Jimi: There's no story of Hades building a big old wall.

[1:31:21] Tommy: No.

[1:31:22] Jimi: It's really interesting.

[1:31:23] Tommy: It's really.

[1:31:24] Jimi: Yeah, it is the whole the like a lot of the consumerism, manufacturism, like greed and capitalism underpinnings of the show, which are not, you know, are not in the Greek myth at all, are really interesting to think about and see, like the allusions to keeping the rust belt rolling in. And like this is not an explicit political commentary. At best, the politics of this comes maybe third or fourth tier to some of the other plot points of it.

[1:32:01] Tommy: But it reads really clearly and strongly and not in a.

[1:32:10] Jimi: It is not condescending.

[1:32:12] Tommy: It is not, you know, as you said, it showcases both sides. This show doesn't take a stance on any of it, especially humanizing Hades, especially, you know, kind of giving everyone their due and their say. Everyone has an equal platform.

[1:32:31] Jimi: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And waivers on their decisions.

[1:32:35] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:32:37] Jimi: You know, no one is sure that they made the right decision in this show, just like, you know, human beings.

[1:32:41] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:32:43] Jimi: Which is it's hard to do.

[1:32:46] Tommy: It's good and it's hard to do.

[1:32:47] Jimi: It's hard to make three dimensional characters, especially based on, you know, like I adore Greek myths, too, but especially based on what is mostly a two dimensional or one dimensional character archetype.

[1:33:00] Tommy: Absolutely.

[1:33:01] Jimi: Like Greek myths all the time, like you are the good guy or, you know, you have one motivation and not these people.

[1:33:09] Tommy: No. Yes. And again, that's probably the last thing I say about Greek myths. I make no promises.

[1:33:14] Jimi: Uh-huh. Sure.

[1:33:15] Tommy: But, you know, for example, that's the thing is Greek mythology kind of does have this level playing field because, you know, someone like Zeus, who is their king, he's the king of the gods. He is the one that you make sure you're not angering. You do not want to piss off Zeus because he'll come and he will do bad to you. But he also did bad himself. You know, he would kidnap women. He would rape people. You know, he would do all this stuff. Hades did it as well. Poseidon did it. Like, yeah, it's it's all everyone out there is kind of.

[1:33:47] Jimi: Yeah, but everyone also is good.

[1:33:49] Tommy: They do. Just people are human.

[1:33:51] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:33:52] Tommy: And that's just the way that mythologies, the Greek mythology is played out. You know, it's like you say, it's as in our kind of Catholic shaping that we have this good and evil dichotomy that we need to have everywhere. Actually, that's just something that we've grown accustomed to.

[1:34:09] Jimi: Right.

[1:34:09] Tommy: Doesn't need to be that way.

[1:34:11] Jimi: It's a simplification.

[1:34:13] Tommy: It is easier for us to create these black and white situations than it is for us to actually imagine that the person on the other end of the Internet might be multidimensional.

[1:34:25] Jimi: Exactly, exactly. Because would you say, I mean, would you say that Hades is a villain in this show?

[1:34:30] Tommy: No, I think Hades is one of the more interesting characters in the show. I think Hades is more interesting than Orpheus in this show.

[1:34:37] Jimi: Orpheus is pretty one directional and one dimensional and a little stupid.

[1:34:42] Tommy: Well, see, that's right. So that's really interesting. I want to jump in that because I think that's certainly that's how Hades feels about Orpheus, I would say. It's just like, you're so rosy. You're really, really rosy right now.

[1:34:59] Jimi: It's that kind of like Sweeney Todd singing to Tobias. You will learn. You know what I mean? It's got that vibe. But actually, the thing that Orpheus is presenting and it gets talked about in a final song that's not on the cast album where Persephone kind of raises a glass to Orpheus and being like, you know, we talk a lot about lauding the people who sing about the good stuff and those happy times and focusing on the happy times. But actually, the people we need to be lauding are the people who just sing forever, no matter what. And it's that idea that Orpheus, you know, he wins over.

[1:35:38] Tommy: By showing her this world that they could have together that's really beautiful and optimistic and idealistic through his art and how that is important. And so I think that layering of having Orpheus as this character who shows the world that yeah, there is, you know, I mean, there is really there's deep beauty in this art and it can get us through a lot. And if we focus on the right things, it will do us well.

[1:36:04] Jimi: Yeah. And it's something that Hades, I feel, is now very far removed to really let that in. It's why he's able to win over Hades, because he reminds him of their initial, you know, his initial love with Persephone.

[1:36:22] Tommy: Right. And Hades was only a man.

[1:36:27] Jimi: Exactly. You know, but it doesn't get so deep into him that it will change Hades completely. Do you know what I mean?

[1:36:31] Tommy: Right. He still, he gives him the option, he gives him the way out. But that's what I was meaning earlier about him being like, maybe if they make it, maybe. And maybe if they did make it, he would be like, OK, wow. Yeah. But it doesn't happen.

[1:36:47] Jimi: Yeah. So you get this idea that everything just goes back.

[1:36:50] Tommy: Yeah. I think you've convinced me on Orpheus. I had a different opinion.

[1:36:56] Jimi: Yeah. Until.

[1:36:56] Tommy: Do you know what it's kind of similar to, weirdly enough, is Blondal. To bring that fabulous piece back, by the way. But it kind of, not nearly as a strong artistic way as I think Hades does. Right. But this idea of you have this idealistic balladeer. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Who is so passionate about music and art and storytelling. And everyone else is being like, come on, baby. It's like, oh, but actually, it's quite interesting, isn't it? It's important to think about it.

[1:37:23] Jimi: Totally. Yeah. So, yeah, there you go. That's my views. And I don't know, I'm just fully in love with Damon, whatever his last name is, because his voice has changed. Like, it's just, I can't, you know, it's the time that I'll be sitting and I'll be like, I just need to listen to that. And I'll just put it on.

[1:37:44] Tommy: Yeah. That's why I'm so.

[1:37:44] Jimi: I'm an Orphistan. I'm an Orphite.

[1:37:52] Tommy: An Orphite. Oh, God. You're going to hate when that catches on.

[1:37:57] Jimi: I think that is actually a thing, though, that means something completely different.

[1:38:00] Tommy: Probably means something awful.

[1:38:00] Jimi: I think it actually does. I actually also think it's related to Persephone, but that's another story. Never mind.

[1:38:07] Tommy: I think the most important part of this story or the part that shines to me is Orpheus's journey back up with Persephone behind it. Like, that is the climax. We're talking about classical story construction, which Greek myth, absolutely. And so Doubt Comes In becomes a really important song. And at least from what I can glean about how the staging works is like, you see Eurydice, or she's in shadow. The Fates sing. Everyone sings in this song. Orpheus and Eurydice sing. And then Orpheus looks back and Hermes is like, oh, you did it, man. And then he walks Eurydice back to Hades. And it's very overt and staged. And you see it, at least based on my assumptions of this, and partially based on the fact that Orpheus sings during Doubt Comes In.

And I don't like that. I want this to be the most delicately lit moment in the whole show, where it goes so dark that you, the audience member, are not sure if Eurydice is there. That like, you know, all you see is Orpheus and you hear the Fates in the background singing the thoughts in Orpheus's mind about Doubt Coming In. And is she there? And could she still be there? And man, this is a long road to walk, but I can't like, you know, bring it like really, really build to that moment where he turns around and the light comes back up on her exactly where you expected her to be, but only for a second before she's gone. And I don't want to see her like, oh, we got to walk you back. Like, I want a magic trick. I want her to like disappear into a pile of dust and to make it, and then we never see her again. Like she's gone.

[1:40:11] Jimi: Yeah. Until maybe Raise a Cup.

[1:40:17] Tommy: Like, yeah, it was a strange because I remember listening to it the first time and when they have the gasp moment. Yeah. It's it is a shame because you're like, oh, and sorry, I'm not saying anything right. When you have that gasp moment in my head, that's exactly what happened is there was like a flash and then she was gone.

[1:40:33] Jimi: Yeah. Because that's what happens in the myth. Right. Turns around, she goes in a puff of smoke and she's gone forever.

[1:40:37] Tommy: Yeah. Yeah. It does take something away, I guess, when he's walking her back. But apparently, I mean, well, according to Rachel Chavkin anyway, the the audiences did react because they know what's happening. They're along for the ride. So when he does it, they're like, no, what? You idiot. She's right there. So right. Almost. Do you need to do the audience need to be like, this is great. This is so great. And then he doubts himself and they're like, what is she? She's right there. Why? Why would you do not to have that moment of frustration to have that moment?

[1:41:13] Jimi: Yeah, I think if you have the ambiguity, then, yeah, maybe the audience I mean, this is it's the discussion of, you know, are we are we a Brechtian theater or are we a naturalistic theater? Like, should are we in this moment Orpheus or are we in this moment an audience observing Orpheus's journey? And I think I want personally to be Orpheus in that moment because I maybe perhaps related to my initial thoughts that Orpheus is one dimensional, which have since been revised. But I think something about that inspires this, that like watching Orpheus, like being Orpheus, having this fatal flaw, having the doubt yourself is I find that more powerful than the traded experience of watching Orpheus mess. Orpheus mess up.

[1:42:07] Tommy: Yeah, I do. That's it. But I think it's like you say, we're different. We're in different camps. I always go for the Brechtian approach. Like, I think I think that immersive staging is perfect. And I would have that for every single show I ever want. Because to me, that's how I like because I look but I'm a performer. I mean, and I love to be a part of these things. So for me, I'm just like, yes.

[1:42:30] Jimi: Right. Yeah. You're already you're by default in it. Yeah, for sure. So yeah, but I think like you say, I think it is totally two different ways. And besides the fact that obviously, it's in the stage directions that Hermes leads her back. Right. I feel like you could interpret it differently. And you know, directors come could do something with that.

[1:42:48] Tommy: Yeah. Well, part of me also feels like this is a two birds, one stone moment. Like, because you can't. If that's going to if this is going to be the most important part of the show, it can't be your only magic trick. Yeah. Or your only illusion, if that makes sense. It can't be the only time you use some, you know, smoke and mirrors literally to accomplish something on stage. So you would have to somehow preempt that whether Hades has, you know, and you can do it in stupid ways, whether like Hades magically levitates to something to himself at some point, you like, give them a little more power there, or here and there throughout the thing. And I think that's a way in to justifiably bigify this show in a way that supports it.

A little sprinkle of stage illusion here and there to make the gods a little more godly could go a long way. Not a lot, not, you know, nothing too impressive. Really, I think nothing that, except for maybe the last moment that people would talk about outside the show, like it doesn't have to be a lot, but then can really make that last moment, like, pull you totally in to that moment.

[1:44:04] Jimi: I know, but see, this is, you're right, you should have said it, because it is the two different camps. It's the Stan and the Brecht, because I'm like, I don't want to go away talking about the moment she disappeared. I want to go away being like, the themes! The message! Do you know what I mean? Rather be like, oh, the story, the anguish. And that is just two different theatre camps.

[1:44:28] Tommy: Yeah, that's true. It will be interesting to see how it's balanced. Imagine going to a summer camp about Brecht.

[1:44:33] Jimi: Oh, imagine watching other people go to a summer camp about Brecht. Do you mean musical about that? Deep, deep theatre analysis jokes.

[1:44:41] Tommy: Brecht jokes, aren't we wankers?

[1:44:58] Jimi: Yeah, we are. Also, it's not our first Brecht joke as well.

[1:45:05] Tommy: Oh, it won't be the last either.

[1:45:05] Jimi: Absolutely. I support it. Anyway. But yes, so they're my thoughts. I think it's the layering of artistry and storytelling and themes in this, what was a concept album is really great. So all the best.

[1:45:21] Tommy: Yeah, let's hope they make it. At least they tried. Don't look back. Don't look back.

[1:45:31] Jimi: Exactly. Oh my God, the layers.

[1:45:48] ♪ Musical number ♪

[1:47:21] Tommy: That was Hadestown.

[1:47:21] Jimi: It was.

[1:47:21] Tommy: Might be coming to Broadway in the fall. That's what the rumor mill says. They're waiting for a theater to open, maybe, or something. I honestly, I'm calling it now. Circling this year. Once on this island, post-20s.

[1:47:41] Jimi: That wouldn't be too bad an idea.

[1:47:41] Tommy: Then it pops. But I don't know because who expected what was going to happen with Comet, and I think people are going to try and tar them with a lot of the same brush.

[1:47:53] Jimi: We shall see. Anyway, you have a quiz question for us, don't you?

[1:47:58] Tommy: I do. Here it is in my pocket. Our next musical is perhaps one of the only musicals with key lyrical changes that were driven by a post-divorce legal agreement.

[1:48:17] Jimi: Gossipy.

[1:48:17] Tommy: Yes. Spilling that tea. Speaking of tea. If you want to get in contact with me, I'm musicalmash on Twitter and musicaltheatermash on YouTube.

[1:48:26] Jimi: And I am AzzedHedrix on Twitter and YouTube. And if you would like to speak to us both, you can contact the show Twitter at Jim and Tomek.

[1:48:38] Tommy: Or our show website, jimandtomek.com, which has show notes and a link to the Reddit discussion where you can chat with us.

[1:48:42] Jimi: Exactly. Now that we're very firmly back, be sure to tell all of your friends all about us so we can all join in the fun.

[1:48:49] Tommy: And the sorrow.

[1:48:55] Jimi: Because we're ballads.

[1:48:55] Tommy: Excellent. See you next week.

[1:49:15] Jimi: Bye-bye.

[1:49:15] Tommy: There we go. It's always so satisfying.