This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Jimi: Have you seen that mukbang stuff?

[0:02] Tommy: Mukbang?

[0:03] Jimi: Mukbang.

[0:04] Tommy: So um I think it's Korean.

[0:06] Jimi: Uh huh.

[0:06] Tommy: Um classic YouTube phenomenon that's come out of nowhere.

[0:10] Jimi: Um basically people eat on camera.

[0:15] Tommy: Oh, yes, I have seen this.

[0:17] Jimi: It was supposed to be just this like interesting voyeuristic thing, and people like pay so much money to these YouTubers who are like just sitting and eating a load of spaghetti.

[0:26] Tommy: We live in the worst timeline.

[0:28] Jimi: I think it is actually the darkest timeline.

[0:31] Tommy: It's just like oh, it's so bad that these things have.

[0:35] Jimi: I mean, and like bad is the wrong word, because I don't want to like, you know, everyone's individual and people.

[0:41] Tommy: We ain't gonna yuck no one's yums.

[0:42] Jimi: Exactly.

[0:43] Tommy: But like, man, it's weird.

[0:46] Jimi: Yes.

[0:47] Tommy: Like collectively, all at once, it's all very weird.

[0:50] Jimi: Yeah, exactly.

[0:52] Tommy: Um so yeah, we won't be starting a mukbang podcast.

[0:55] Jimi: Yet.

[0:56] Tommy: Sorry for yeah, yeah.

[0:58] Jimi: We'll wait until I don't know.

[0:59] Tommy: I was gonna say the money dries up, but yeah, this is our primary careers.

[1:05] Jimi: Um it really, really is somebody get us another drink!

[1:10] Tommy: Welcome to Jim and Tomic's musical theater happy hour.

[1:13] Jimi: Your weekly podcast with monologues and mountain dew.

[1:19] Tommy: Yes.

[1:20] Jimi: Um, wait, I've just realized I've made a big blunder.

[1:26] Tommy: You really have, because now we can't talk about what we're drinking today because you've already stolen every joke we could possibly make.

[1:33] Jimi: You always go first, so good luck.

[1:38] Tommy: Uh today I'm drinking a what does he call it?

[1:42] Jimi: A pansy serum.

[1:46] Tommy: Wow.

[1:47] Jimi: Isn't that what I think that's what what he calls it in the show?

[1:50] Tommy: In a Midsummer Nightmare with Zombies.

[1:53] Jimi: Yes, it is.

[1:54] Tommy: It is.

[1:54] Jimi: Well done.

[1:55] Tommy: You're welcome.

[1:56] Jimi: You're welcome in the biggest.

[1:57] Tommy: Um, I'm drinking this this is a true story.

[2:00] Jimi: I mean, it's not actually true, I'm not drinking it right now, but I have drunk.

[2:03] Tommy: Uh huh.

[2:04] Jimi: Drank?

[2:04] Tommy: Drank.

[2:05] Jimi: Drunk.

[2:05] Tommy: Um, it was uh a lovely can of like apple flavoured soft drink.

[2:13] Jimi: Uh-huh.

[2:13] Tommy: With bulbasaur on it, the Pokemon.

[2:16] Jimi: And it was from Japan.

[2:20] Tommy: Oh, that that's good.

[2:22] Jimi: That's wonderful.

[2:23] Tommy: Apple flavored?

[2:24] Jimi: Huh.

[2:25] Tommy: Apple, yeah, Bulbasaur is apple.

[2:26] Jimi: I just never would have thought of Bulbasaur as being apple flavored.

[2:29] Tommy: No, maybe like, because what were the other ones?

[2:31] Jimi: So you had um Pikachu was there and it was like a sort of a mango.

[2:38] Tommy: Yeah.

[2:39] Jimi: Um but one of them is really obscure.

[2:41] Tommy: Was it Squirtle?

[2:42] Jimi: I think it might have been squirtle, but it was nothing to do with like l like liquid or water.

[2:47] Tommy: It was something like lychee.

[2:49] Jimi: Light I think it was lychee.

[2:51] Tommy: Huh.

[2:51] Jimi: Weird.

[2:52] Tommy: Leechee.

[2:53] Jimi: Sorry.

[2:53] Tommy: There you go.

[2:53] Jimi: That's the right way.

[2:55] Tommy: I didn't know if it was uh is that a Scottishism.

[2:59] Jimi: Lychee.

[3:01] Tommy: No, I'm just pronouncing it the way it should be.

[3:03] Jimi: We're not getting into this again.

[3:04] Tommy: Leeche.

[3:05] Jimi: Not after last time.

[3:07] Tommy: No, the last lychee incident.

[3:09] Jimi: Why?

[3:10] Tommy: Why the Mountain Dew, the Pansy Serum, and Soft Drink from Japan.

[3:14] Jimi: Well, that would be telling.

[3:17] Tommy: So instead I'm gonna give you a quiz question.

[3:19] Jimi: I'm excited.

[3:20] Tommy: Another quiz statement.

[3:21] Jimi: We seem to be doing quite a lot of quiz statements recently.

[3:23] Tommy: We have got really, if anything, we have the structure of this podcast down pat and uh stunning.

[3:30] Jimi: Um okay, so well, sadly, in fact, very sadly.

[3:34] Tommy: It is, it's really a travesty.

[3:36] Jimi: Devastatingly, um, the musical adaptation of this young adult novel uh does not star Mr. Keanu Reeves as the antagonist.

[3:46] Tommy: Ugh.

[3:47] Jimi: Uh, wouldn't that be the day?

[3:49] Tommy: It will.

[3:49] Jimi: Maybe it maybe it will be.

[3:51] Tommy: Maybe it will.

[3:51] Jimi: Now that now that it's going off Broadway.

[3:53] Tommy: What show?

[3:54] Jimi: What show is it, Jimmy?

[3:55] Tommy: We are talking about be more chill.

[3:58] Jimi: Oh, your nerdiness is ugly.

[4:00] Tommy: Nerd.

[4:01] Jimi: I thought it was more of a geek.

[4:02] Tommy: Oh, your stammerins are chore.

[4:05] Jimi: Uh uh, what?

[4:06] Tommy: Your ticks and fidgets are persistent, and your charm is non-existent.

[4:11] Jimi: Fix your vibe, then fix them all.

[4:14] Tommy: But but no, we stop.

[4:17] Jimi: Oh, everything about you is so terrible.

[4:26] Tommy: Whooo, everything about you makes me wanna die.

[4:32] Jimi: Jesus Christ.

[4:34] Tommy: So don't freak out and don't resist.

[4:38] Jimi: And have no doubt.

[4:40] Tommy: If I assist you be more chill.

[4:54] Jimi: First things first, go buy a new shirt.

[4:57] Tommy: What's wrong with my shit?

[5:00] Jimi: So what I like to do now, right?

[5:02] Tommy: See every time I'm editing, uh huh.

[5:04] Jimi: Is when you start to sing a jingle of it, well, I won't be using that.

[5:09] Tommy: So that's been a fun adventure.

[5:11] Jimi: So just to let you know that that's what happened.

[5:13] Tommy: I'm excited for like the super future cut of me poorly singing instrumental beginnings of.

[5:18] Jimi: I think it will be like we'll eventually be able to, you know, create a whole other story of a musical.

[5:22] Tommy: Which is great.

[5:23] Jimi: Me going like da da da da.

[5:25] Tommy: Yeah, exactly.

[5:26] Jimi: It'll be beautiful.

[5:27] Tommy: It will be really beautiful.

[5:28] Jimi: It will be more chill.

[5:31] Tommy: Be more chill.

[5:32] Jimi: We all should.

[5:33] Tommy: Um we have music and lyrics by Mr. Joe Iconis.

[5:36] Jimi: We do, and book by Joe Trace.

[5:40] Tommy: It's the two Joes working on this show together.

[5:43] Jimi: I see what you did there.

[5:44] Tommy: Yeah.

[5:44] Jimi: You looked it up, didn't you?

[5:45] Tommy: I did look it up.

[5:46] Jimi: That's preparation.

[5:48] Tommy: Do you want to do the next one?

[5:49] Jimi: Sure.

[5:50] Tommy: Uh and it's bait this musical Be More Chill is based on a young adult novel by Ned Vizzini.

[5:55] Jimi: It is Vitzini?

[5:57] Tommy: Vitz I think it's Vizini.

[5:59] Jimi: Okay.

[6:00] Tommy: It guess depends where you're from.

[6:02] Jimi: Man, it's so hard.

[6:03] Tommy: Can I the as a as a former YouTuber slash YouTuber in Hibernation, it is so difficult to accurately and correctly track down someone's correct name pronunciation.

[6:14] Jimi: Oh my gosh.

[6:15] Tommy: Like, let's not even talk about Rogers and Hammerstein.

[6:20] Jimi: Is it?

[6:21] Tommy: Right?

[6:21] Jimi: I don't know.

[6:22] Tommy: I don't know.

[6:22] Jimi: I just feel like nobody knows that.

[6:24] Tommy: I feel like I'm wrong every time.

[6:25] Jimi: I have watched interviews with his best friend, Steven Sondheim.

[6:29] Tommy: Right.

[6:29] Jimi: And Steven Sondheim has said it differently.

[6:31] Tommy: And I'm like, if we can't trust you, Steve.

[6:33] Jimi: Who can we trust?

[6:34] Tommy: Who can we trust?

[6:36] Jimi: So there we go.

[6:37] Tommy: Anyway.

[6:38] Jimi: Be more chill.

[6:39] Tommy: Premiered at the Tour of the Theatre in New Jersey in 2015.

[6:42] Jimi: Yes, it did.

[6:43] Tommy: And then we didn't hear from it.

[6:45] Jimi: No, for maybe a couple years.

[6:47] Tommy: As is normal for a show that happens way out of town, and you know, that's that.

[6:51] Jimi: And then suddenly, kaboom, um, Tumblr finds it, and it becomes uh one of the uh most talked about shows on Tumblr.

[7:00] Tommy: It was the second most talked about show on Tumblr behind Ham.

[7:03] Jimi: Yeah, which is huge.

[7:04] Tommy: If you ever look at the analytics of like where Hamilton is in any kind of online discourse versus whatever the number two is at that time, it's like orders of magnitude.

[7:15] Jimi: So to be number two is it's basically being number one.

[7:19] Tommy: Exactly.

[7:20] Jimi: Absolutely.

[7:21] Tommy: Um and if you don't really count Tumblr as a rating for anything, which is you know fair.

[7:26] Jimi: Um also in its 97th week of release, the cast album went into the uh Billboard's Broadway top 10 charts.

[7:34] Tommy: Yeah, like what a 97 weeks.

[7:36] Jimi: Like what a slow it was closed.

[7:39] Tommy: It had been closed for years exactly by the time it hit the billboards.

[7:44] Jimi: Um, which it is so the the growth of the show is crazy, and I'm sure we'll talk about it.

[7:49] Tommy: Insane, absolutely insane.

[7:51] Jimi: Um, and because of that, therefore, um producers have been like, well, hey, yeah, rubbing the fist together, and uh we now have uh off-Broadway production coming this summer in July, um, with a view, there's already chat about it going on Broadway season.

[8:07] Tommy: It's and I'm sure it's gonna do absolutely wonderfully.

[8:10] Jimi: I mean, yeah, regardless of the current Broadway season.

[8:13] Tommy: Um, but then also especially because of the current Broadway season.

[8:17] Jimi: Exactly.

[8:18] Tommy: That's something to be very, very excited about.

[8:22] Jimi: I'm sure there are plenty of our listeners out there who are very, very excited about this.

[8:25] Tommy: I know I am.

[8:27] Jimi: Yeah, I think so.

[8:28] Tommy: I'm very just I'm excited to see where it goes.

[8:31] Jimi: We'll probably talk about that.

[8:32] Tommy: Yeah.

[8:32] Jimi: As usual, get it on a t-shirt.

[8:34] Tommy: Um, so Be More Chill, what is it?

[8:37] Jimi: Uh, Be More Chill is a pretty much a generic high school story, um, with a severe uh sci-fi undertone.

[8:48] Tommy: I think it's one of it's one of the mini documentaries about the cast recording where one of the cast members describes it as um Heather's in the world of mean girls meets Little Shop of Horrors, which I think is 100% accurate.

[9:03] Jimi: Absolutely.

[9:03] Tommy: Absolutely.

[9:04] Jimi: Um, and it because it is, it's it's uh harking back to that classic Faustian tale.

[9:09] Tommy: Mm-hmm, you know, with your um the devil comes up and says, Hey, look at this, I can make you better.

[9:15] Jimi: And you're like, Oh, that sounds good, and then everything starts to go to shit as you get your heart's desire.

[9:19] Tommy: And then you realize, hey, maybe I had it all along.

[9:22] Jimi: Yep.

[9:23] Tommy: You know, um so our main character, Jeremy here, um, who Joe Iconis describes as so beyond normal, he is the most uninteresting person in the world.

[9:33] Jimi: He's not he's even so boring that he can't even be called a loser.

[9:37] Tommy: Um and Jeremy here is, you know, trying to struggle through high school when through a series of events ends up in the back of a woman's footlocker, uh, where he purchases a brand new piece of super quantum nano technology called a squip.

[9:55] Jimi: It's a pill you eat and it implants in your brain, and then it tells you what to do.

[10:01] Tommy: Um and sci-fi complications ensue.

[10:05] Jimi: They absolutely do.

[10:06] Tommy: Um, but kind of amidst all that it is it is your classic high school story of struggling teen coping with emotion in all shapes and sizes.

[10:17] Jimi: Um uh has a lot of heart to it.

[10:20] Tommy: Yes, very much a lot of heart.

[10:22] Jimi: And like we were talking about this I maybe before we hit record, but like crazy catchy music.

[10:29] Tommy: Yes.

[10:30] Jimi: Like ridiculously so.

[10:32] Tommy: Sud so wonderfully written.

[10:34] Jimi: It's very funny, hyper contemporary.

[10:36] Tommy: Um you know, a wonderful encapsulation, I think of this is gonna make me sound like an old fart, but the contemporary high schooler.

[10:44] Jimi: Um it's there is a day.

[10:48] Tommy: I mean, and hash hashtag we'll talk about it, but um the the way high school and high schoolers are represented in this rings truer to me than any other contemporary representation of youth.

[11:04] Jimi: Um in a hugely like real and non-demeaning way.

[11:09] Tommy: Yeah.

[11:09] Jimi: Yeah, I'm excited to talk about that actually, because I think that is particularly the non-demeaning thing is the the little kicker.

[11:16] Tommy: Yeah.

[11:17] Jimi: Ew, there.

[11:18] Tommy: Yeah.

[11:20] Jimi: Shall we?

[11:21] Tommy: Are you sitting comfortably?

[11:23] Jimi: I am, are you?

[11:24] Tommy: Yes, then I'll begin.

[11:26] Jimi: That's uh a callback to old British television.

[11:30] Tommy: We had a show called Watch with Mother.

[11:37] Jimi: Oh, that sounds like the title of an arrested development episode.

[11:40] Tommy: Yeah.

[11:45] Jimi: So I've been rewatching it.

[11:47] Tommy: Find the bad guy, push him aside, and move on forward with your friend at your side.

[11:50] Jimi: It's a two-player game, so when they make an attack, you know you got a brother gonna have your back, and you stay on track, and ah remaining on course, and then they give him a snack your guy, you use your force, and then you leave your brother behind, it's like because it's an half-top world and it's a two-player game.

[12:04] Tommy: Hey!

[12:05] Jimi: So I think uh for this one, let's start with content.

[12:09] Tommy: We always kind of leave content till the end.

[12:11] Jimi: Let's start with content and then we can see what that content did.

[12:14] Tommy: Um so obviously Joe Iconis.

[12:18] Jimi: Um we you know, we don't see him in the Broadway sphere.

[12:22] Tommy: No, but definitely in the like New York musical theater sphere.

[12:26] Jimi: Yes, and on the uh televisual sphere of the TV smash hashtag season three soon.

[12:35] Tommy: I'm supposed I'm contractually obligated to say that.

[12:37] Jimi: It's not gonna happen, but if we say it happens enough, then it will happen.

[12:40] Tommy: That's how these things happen.

[12:41] Jimi: I'm sorry, I saw your finger.

[12:44] Tommy: The color drained from your face.

[12:46] Jimi: That was amazing.

[12:48] Tommy: I'm sorry.

[12:49] Jimi: I got tingles in my fingers there.

[12:52] Tommy: That's so that's really cruel.

[12:54] Jimi: But Bobshell still on the horizon.

[12:56] Tommy: It's true, it's true.

[12:57] Jimi: So Joe Iconis, uh one of the staff writers, I don't know, wrote a couple songs for Smash.

[13:03] Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

[13:04] Jimi: It was there for it a fair few, and a lot of Broadway Heroicon, for example.

[13:07] Tommy: Yes.

[13:08] Jimi: Um you can't get there.

[13:10] Tommy: Also huge on the cabaret circuit in New York, 54 below, um, Joe's pub, always doing, you know, Joe Iconis and Friends singing inappropriate musical theater songs that aren't really from a particular show yet.

[13:24] Tommy: Um, but definitely has made a name for himself in that kind of sphere.

[13:30] Jimi: Yeah.

[13:30] Tommy: And I think as well, he um I I don't think you can deny that he has a sound.

[13:36] Jimi: Yes.

[13:38] Tommy: Well, I think his sound is contemporary musical theater done right.

[13:41] Jimi: Like the contemporary musical theater we joke about in contemporary musical theater song is the Joe Iconis song sound.

[13:48] Tommy: Like that's I think what it's parodying.

[13:51] Jimi: Yeah, but in its in its good yeah, in its good form.

[13:53] Tommy: Yeah.

[13:59] Jimi: Yeah. Obviously, like with 35mm. Um, I just think he does different things. He's not sitting down at his piano and turning out a song that was written four years ago by Kerrigan and Louder Milk. Right. Do you know what I mean? It's not, it's not always just a rock pop sound with ha ha in the middle of it all. Yeah. And I like to think as well, I think he kind of uses the sounds appropriately to make sense. I mean, what then absolutely I think like I listen, I've listened to Be More Chill a whole bunch now. Um and a lot of the songs have the generic contemporary musical theater song spiel to them, but plenty of like, you know, then all of a sudden we'll swing into a tango or a real reggae kind of feel. Um or like, you know, the finale has this kind of like driving country bumpkin feel to it all. Um and so he he breaks out of the form or the the stereotype a bunch.

[14:54] Tommy: He definitely does, and he does something that I have always been surprised has never happened more, and that he kind of writes like emo music.

[15:04] Jimi: What do you okay? What do you what do you mean by that?

[15:06] Tommy: I'm talking like light emo, like I'm talking your Fall Out Boy, your Panic at the Discos, your Green Days.

[15:12] Jimi: Yeah. Right. Because even it's weird, even American Idiot doesn't sound as emo as Joe Iconis is now.

[15:21] Tommy: I was I was one of I'm talking about my brothers and sisters here. I'm not doing this in a disparaging way.

[15:26] Jimi: Right. No, like no one can deny that Fall Out Boy and Panic at the Disco are very good.

[15:30] Tommy: Right, exactly. I think a lot of people know we could deny Jimmy's secret past as a former emo theater kid. The picks are out there, it's true. Um the first time I listened to this, I was totally struck by the fact that I was like, oh my god, yeah, this is, you know, I mean, this is going back to um like, you know, sugar we're going down, swing it. Like it's it was just like, oh, I I totally had that nostalgic flashback. Um then I was kind of taken being like, wait, no one's no one's done this yet.

[16:05] Jimi: Exactly. Yeah, it is interesting. Because we certainly have had the rap and hip hop influx from Lin-Manuel Miranda into the musical theater sphere.

[16:12] Tommy: Yeah.

[16:13] Jimi: But we don't have this kind of, as you've said, Fall Out Boy, Panic at the Disco kind of feel until really Joe Iconis.

[16:20] Tommy: I would say so. Like I genuinely, like I say, even American Idiot, obviously, those songs are written by Green Day and that. But the way they've been adapted, sometimes they take that away.

[16:29] Jimi: Yeah, they get like musical theaterized.

[16:31] Tommy: Yeah, exactly. Whereas I feel like this has gone in the other way.

[16:35] Jimi: Yeah. Um, and therefore, it's just, you know, it was attractive to us at the time. I mean, I I'm speaking on behalf of you here.

[16:42] Tommy: Right.

[16:43] Jimi: But like it was attractive to me at the time because I was a teenager having all of these hormones and the music was deeply hormonal. I don't know what it is about it, but it's just the way it was.

[16:51] Tommy: Yeah, well, it's it's he writes, I mean, he writes good music. He happens to write musical theater, but the music he writes is, you know, not not pop in genre, but pop in ideal. Um it is appealing, it is hummable, it is singable, while not being dumb, while not being simplistic. Um, you know, it is I would say complex in ways that like Sondheim is complex, but without some of the like intellectualism that certainly and I don't mean that in a demeaning way, but the some of the like intellectualism that feels like a gatekeeper towards Sondheim, or maybe even like Rogers and Hammerstein.

[17:38] Jimi: Yeah, even uh.

[17:39] Tommy: So it's interesting you say that about the intellectualism because I actually do think this is a very or it has lots of simple elements.

[17:48] Jimi: Yes.

[17:49] Tommy: To the point it makes it extremely accessible.

[17:51] Jimi: Yes. Accessible was the word that was swirling in my brain too.

[17:54] Tommy: Right.

[17:55] Jimi: And I think you could weigh up whether that's a good thing, whether that's a bad thing. I think it's a perfectly acceptable thing.

[18:02] Tommy: Yeah.

[18:03] Jimi: Because the thing is, you know, I mean, there are there are musicals out there that you'll listen to about 40 or 50 times and you still won't really get it, but you'll know, yeah, that's yeah, I like it. Whereas I think you just listen to this once through, and you're like, oh, that was bloody great. I mean, it just has that nice, easy and and it sits in a great part where it is not the you know, coming off of something like Forum or the Producers. It is not so simplistic that you're like, oh, right, it's the surface. All I need to see is the surface. I don't need to think, I don't need to analyze, I don't need to dive in. Like Joe Iconis' work is not that.

[18:45] Tommy: There is metaphor, there is symbolism, there is repeated imagery, there are themes that come back that mean things.

[18:52] Jimi: Yeah.

[18:53] Tommy: But it is not, you know, uh clutching to a copy of life just to keep in touch. Like it's not so seeped in poetry that like it I think that turns some audiences off because musical theater and even just theatre itself can feel like a walled garden where if you don't know the secret password to get in, well, I'll never understand it.

[19:20] Jimi: And Joe Iconis' work is inviting. It says, You you will be able to understand me.

[19:26] Tommy: Exactly. And I think uh I'm sure at the end of this podcast we'll weigh up how did it happen?

[19:31] Jimi: Yeah.

[19:32] Tommy: But I think that's one of the big bigger reasons why it is as popular as it is because it has attracted so many new musical theater fans.

[19:42] Jimi: Yeah. You know?

[19:43] Tommy: 100%. In the same way some of its other contemporary shows, which we'll talk about did as well.

[19:50] Jimi: Yeah. It is just it is a very welcoming show.

[19:53] Tommy: And it's not even down, I wouldn't say just down to the like the real hashtag relatable content.

[19:57] Jimi: Right.

[19:58] Tommy: It is actually just down to the musical content.

[20:02] Jimi: Yeah.

[20:03] Tommy: And it and it is, and it I think what makes it so appealing for me is it's still Joe doesn't sacrifice the musical integrity for that relatability. Um like you listen to the orchestration for the show and like it's filled with like theremins and like whatever the like you know glass water harp things that like make super horror movie style noises.

[20:27] Jimi: Like the instrumentation for this show is tailor-made for the content in that way that I want musical theater to be, but not so much so that you're like, well, I don't understand what I'm supposed to be feeling right now.

[20:40] Tommy: Yeah, exactly.

[20:42] Jimi: Exactly. Um, but what I will say, and I'll put I'll put this out to you discussion point, if you will. Um so while I say the music, I'm a hundred percent with you, top notch. The lyrics, yeah.

[20:57] Tommy: There are some moments, Thomas, where I would say yes, yeah. Maybe a B plus.

[21:04] Jimi: Yeah.

[21:05] Tommy: Um I'm gonna hit you with some examples, and I would like you to tell me do you think this is necessary, or do you think we could have spent another 20 minutes and maybe come up with something else?

[21:18] Jimi: Yeah.

[21:19] Tommy: Um, the first one being then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then.

[21:25] Jimi: Well, uh so and you I know you've also listed here, nah nah nah nah nah nah nah nah nah nah.

[21:31] Tommy: And I've I've put in my uh biggest pet peeve uh from Pitiful Children where people beep.

[21:39] Jimi: Um but I think But what I will say to you about beep beep ba beep, catchy as hell.

[21:44] Tommy: Yeah. Well, and I think also, while we call these out mostly out of comedy, I think these aren't the best examples of my least favorite lyrics.

[21:53] Jimi: Um, I would also agree.

[21:54] Tommy: I like in let's say even Pitiful Children, like what is it, turn turn that knob and switch that gear, um, which is like a throwaway filler line in Pitiful Children.

[22:04] Jimi: Um, but is not right because there's a lot of like physical mechanical imagery that happens in Pitiful Children, and that's not the kind of technology we're talking about.

[22:18] Tommy: It is not the uh the correct imagery. The other one that bothers me, I was talking with my boyfriend about this because we're big Nintendo fans.

[22:26] Jimi: Um but in um two player game, um, this is these are the things that I thought was gonna bother me when I went to see Ready Player One, which I actually kind of enjoyed.

[22:36] Tommy: Um but like video games done wrong.

[22:41] Jimi: Um and it it's a it's a plot point in this that they're good at video games and that they're good at like zombie fighting video games.

[22:47] Tommy: Yeah.

[22:48] Jimi: Um, but Michael has a lyric about fighting Nintendo zombies, and the lyric was picked because Nintendo has the right number of syllables for that phrase.

[22:59] Tommy: For sure.

[23:00] Jimi: But there's no such thing as a Nintendo zombie.

[23:05] Tommy: Oh no.

[23:06] Jimi: Right? Like there's and like we don't do that in our I I know that as a video game nerd that like zombies.

[23:12] Tommy: I know what they mean.

[23:13] Jimi: Right? Right? I know what they mean. They mean re-deads and the Legends of Zelda.

[23:17] Tommy: Right.

[23:18] Jimi: Like but that's what they mean. But there's there is no quote unquote Nintendo game that is the like apocalypse of the damned the cafeteria zombie killer game that they're talking about.

[23:31] Tommy: Not in the way that like we should understand the reference.

[23:34] Jimi: Um and so like those those sorts of things, and I'm glad they're they're few and far between, but those are the sorts of things that would kill a like young audience appeal um piece like this, you know.

[23:48] Tommy: Yeah, it's the Because it's that kind of like grandpa being, oh, playing while you're Nintendo Zaria.

[23:53] Jimi: Yeah, exactly. The uh Animaniacs does a bit about this where it's like the nerd at the computer and he's like, in episode number 65, you've noticed that, like, uh, but uh really there's never been this sort of thing where uh they have three fingers, but that and like the nerds are gonna call this sort of stuff out, and Animaniacs lampshades it and parodies it.

[24:13] Tommy: But it's true, the nerds are gonna notice these things, and the kids are gonna notice these things, and if it's not 100% accurate, you've killed your credibility immediately.

[24:22] Jimi: Um I think a lot of those sorts of things we get close to in some of the like carelessness is the wrong word, but lack of attention in the lyrics.

[24:33] Tommy: Exactly. Exactly. I just feel like I don't know, I think there are just a few moments where it's like, just spend like I feel like for them, then then then then like don't repeat a word that doesn't mean anything.

[24:43] Jimi: Right.

[24:44] Tommy: And like maybe you're doing something super interesting with your staging in that particular moment.

[24:49] Jimi: They're not, I've seen that.

[24:50] Tommy: Right. So like, then you know, justify it that way.

[24:54] Jimi: Exactly.

[24:55] Tommy: Like you know, I mean, yeah, exactly. Um, I especially feel that about na na na na na na na na because it comes back a whole bunch and is in the finale.

[25:03] Jimi: Uh-huh.

[25:04] Tommy: But so right. I think I put na na na na na na na na there as a like a discussion point because um if we think about something like uh Spring Awakening.

[25:16] Jimi: Mm-hmm.

[25:17] Tommy: Right? We have blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

[25:21] Jimi: Right.

[25:22] Tommy: Um but here's the here's the ticker, right?

[25:25] Jimi: Um blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah means something.

[25:29] Tommy: Right, it has a purpose in the story, whereas na na na na is filler to get the chorus in.

[25:35] Jimi: Yeah.

[25:36] Tommy: And like but then like the thing this is where I'm torn because Iconis does this in other songs where you think the one I think about always is the goodbye song in Smash.

[25:49] Jimi: Okay.

[25:52] Tommy: I've never watched Smash, have I told you this?

[25:55] Jimi: Wait.

[25:57] Tommy: What?

[25:58] Jimi: That's alright.

[25:58] Tommy: Well we'll I'm through with this podcast.

[26:02] Jimi: Jimmy has put his headphones down, he has walked away.

[26:05] Tommy: Can we can we do another podcast on Smash?

[26:08] Jimi: Where I watch Smash and then we talk about it.

[26:11] Tommy: Yeah, I can't wait to hear what you think about it.

[26:14] Jimi: I can't believe we've never watched Smash.

[26:16] Tommy: Maybe we'll do a summer special or something.

[26:18] Jimi: Um But so like with like Joe Iconis does this thing where he has the chorus sing like backup um off stage or otherwise, and so nah nah nah nah nah nah na na is born out of that desire, but in the other places it is musically relevant, whereas when na na na na na happens, you could like just cut to the next lyric and no one would be any of the wiser.

[26:46] Tommy: Yeah.

[26:46] Jimi: So it's not it almost it's it's not a lyric.

[26:49] Tommy: Yeah.

[26:50] Jimi: It's just like extra extra.

[26:51] Tommy: I don't know.

[26:51] Jimi: Like, and that's kind of fine, and pulling teeth here, tots my goats.

[26:55] Tommy: Um, but I do just think there are moments where it's like, uh, this could be the thing is it's like it's like we say musically it's stellar.

[27:04] Jimi: Yeah.

[27:05] Tommy: Um I just think there are things that could push it to that kind of nth level that you know you're not gonna lose your audience.

[27:12] Jimi: Right.

[27:13] Tommy: But for us our little you know, intellectual folks who love a bit of trickery, who love a little bit of wordplay every now and then.

[27:20] Jimi: You use that moment, you have that moment, don't waste it, you know, or cut.

[27:25] Tommy: Like well, that's it, yeah.

[27:27] Jimi: Just say like then riff or something, I don't know, something like that.

[27:32] Tommy: You don't need to say it 12 times.

[27:33] Jimi: Yeah, like it's I don't know. It just it most I just mostly wanted to make this up because of then.

[27:40] Tommy: I just think it's mildly inexcusable.

[27:41] Jimi: Yeah.

[27:42] Tommy: Um but you know, that's fine.

[27:46] Jimi: It is fine because it's a great show.

[27:48] Tommy: It really is.

[27:49] Jimi: And this is I think that's probably gonna be one of the only negative things.

[27:52] Tommy: Well, no, that's not true. I've got something else in my in my tank.

[27:55] Jimi: Interesting, okay.

[27:56] Jimi: Yeah, uh-huh.

[27:57] Tommy: Yeah, I'm actually quite intrigued to see what you think about this because I mean I would if we're talking broad strokes on the terms of positive and negative things, I think Be More Chill is from a certain lens, the best musical to happen in the 2010s.

[28:18] Jimi: Wow.

[28:19] Tommy: Yeah.

[28:20] Jimi: Is that big big statements?

[28:22] Tommy: I mean, yeah, I fully disagree with that one.

[28:25] Jimi: Right.

[28:25] Tommy: Okay.

[28:25] Jimi: That's not for this podcast.

[28:27] Tommy: Wait, really?

[28:28] Jimi: I from a certain lens.

[28:30] Jimi: If we're talking if we're talking about musical theater as viability and commerciality and popularity from a artistically grounded standpoint, I think Be More Chill has it.

[28:44] Tommy: Over something so like what's yours, Great Comet.

[28:48] Jimi: Um no, Hamilton.

[28:50] Tommy: Okay.

[28:51] Jimi: Yeah.

[28:52] Tommy: Like just in terms of in terms of the categories that you put, like, because I know Great Comet isn't accessible.

[28:58] Jimi: Right.

[28:58] Tommy: Yeah.

[28:59] Jimi: I think I'm down with that.

[29:00] Jimi: I think Be More Chill is I'm I think Be More Chill is more accessible than Hamilton.

[29:06] Tommy: I mean, I guess, but the stats haven't been catchier than Hamilton.

[29:12] Jimi: I would give you that.

[29:13] Jimi: But I I would say And it's more relatable than Hamilton.

[29:17] Tommy: So here's this.

[29:18] Tommy: Here's this.

[29:19] Jimi: Yeah.

[29:19] Jimi: What Hamilton does is it gives you here's your lovely relatable content that does exist.

[29:25] Tommy: Right.

[29:26] Jimi: But it's also like here's your time to really delve in and learn something and kind of have that, like I just said before, about having that little intellectual itch there.

[29:35] Tommy: Yeah.

[29:36] Jimi: That allows people because that was one of the things that was very new with Hamilton, is people were like pouring over it as if it was like here's the discovered text.

[29:45] Tommy: And I think you can't do that with Be More Chill.

[29:48] Jimi: Well, but I think that's my controversial opinion about musical theater that is maybe a big antithesis to my whole life.

[29:53] Jimi: Um or my discussion of musical theater and my, you know, super hyper vigilance about it as online commentary.

[30:02] Jimi: But I do think the best musical theater is not overtly intellectual.

[30:11] Tommy: Uh-huh.

[30:11] Jimi: And I think Hamilton is overtly intellectual.

[30:15] Tommy: Uh-huh.

[30:16] Jimi: You can't go to Hamilton and not be challenged to think, right?

[30:20] Tommy: Yep.

[30:21] Jimi: Um, and so and and I think that's wonderful.

[30:23] Jimi: Like not clearly Hamilton has the success, right?

[30:26] Jimi: And clearly is doing wonderful, and I agree with all these things.

[30:29] Jimi: But I want musical theater that on its surface can be relatively non-challenging, but then with analysis can become challenging and with very little analysis, because that's the trick of theater.

[30:46] Tommy: Um we talked about this with fun home, maybe.

[30:51] Jimi: Did we talk about Fun Home?

[30:52] Tommy: Um We have talked about Fun Home.

[30:54] Tommy: About like tricking your audience into a controversial subject.

[30:58] Jimi: Um Yes.

[31:00] Jimi: We also talked about it in um Scottsburg's.

[31:03] Tommy: Yes.

[31:03] Jimi: Um and like, you know, reeling them in with that allure of like fun night at the theater, but then like, haha, we got you and we made you think for a little bit.

[31:13] Tommy: Um whereas like Hamilton from the beginning is like, boom, you know, we have a bunch of controversial bones to pick about all these sorts of things.

[31:21] Jimi: Um I I think the most successful art is uh subversive in a way that Be More Chill is, in a way that Hamilton isn't.

[31:32] Tommy: I don't think Hamilton is subversive in that particular flavor.

[31:39] Jimi: Agree to disagree.

[31:40] Tommy: Alright.

[31:41] Jimi: Yeah, definitely.

[31:42] Jimi: Um I think it's because we're about to talk about the themes.

[31:45] Tommy: Yeah.

[31:45] Jimi: So we can discuss that more there.

[31:48] Tommy: Shall we do that?

[31:49] Jimi: Let's do that.

[31:50] Jimi: Let's do that.

[31:51] Tommy: Michael in the bathroom at a party.

[31:55] Jimi: I choke back the tears.

[31:57] Jimi: I'll wait as long as I need till my face is dry.

[32:01] Jimi: Or I'll just blame it on weed or something in my eye.

[32:06] Jimi: I'm just Michael who you don't know.

[32:08] Jimi: Michael Fly and Solo.

[32:10] Jimi: Michael Mega Bathroom by himself.

[32:16] Jimi: Knock, knock, knock, knock.

[32:18] Jimi: They're gonna start to shout soon.

[32:20] Jimi: Knock, knock, knock, knock.

[32:22] Jimi: I'll help me out, I'll be out soon.

[32:24] Jimi: Knock, knock, knock, knock.

[32:26] Jimi: It sucks you left me here alone.

[32:28] Jimi: Knock, knock, knock, knock.

[32:30] Jimi: You're in this teenage battles are cran, clang, clang, clang.

[32:34] Jimi: I feel the pressure blowing up.

[32:36] Jimi: Bang, bang, bang, bang.

[32:38] Jimi: My big mistake was showing up, flash, blash, blast.

[32:42] Jimi: I throw some water in my face, and I am in a better place.

[32:46] Jimi: I go to open up the door, but I can't hear knocking.

[32:50] Tommy: Okay, we're doing that.

[32:52] Tommy: So um, yeah.

[32:55] Tommy: So let's just jump straight on that.

[32:58] Jimi: Um I I don't know.

[33:02] Jimi: I think Hamilton has I don't want this to become a Hamilton podcast.

[33:07] Jimi: Because we've definitely talked about that one enough.

[33:10] Tommy: Um But I don't know.

[33:12] Tommy: I think Hamilton has that layer of this is an interesting story about someone's life.

[33:16] Tommy: It's kind of gossipy.

[33:18] Tommy: Yeah.

[33:18] Tommy: Um, you know, there's moments of there's a love story, oh, there's tragedy.

[33:24] Tommy: Yeah.

[33:24] Tommy: Oh, it's the end.

[33:25] Tommy: So I think it has a surface, and then you get into it, and then it's like, oh, this is a story about immigration.

[33:25] Tommy: Oh, this is a story about infidelity.

[33:33] Tommy: This is a story about relationships.

[33:36] Jimi: I think what puts the break in it for Hamilton for me is Hamilton still remains Brechttian, right?

[33:42] Jimi: It is still observational.

[33:43] Jimi: And certainly you sympathize and empathize with the characters, but I think less so than something like Be More Chill.

[33:50] Tommy: Um, I would I would definitely get it.

[33:51] Tommy: I would say the characters in Be More Chill 20,000 times more relatable.

[33:55] Jimi: Right.

[33:55] Tommy: But um that's the subversion for me.

[33:58] Jimi: But what I would say with that is I think what Be More Chill gives you is one note.

[34:05] Jimi: I think Be More Chill gives you uh we all go through anxiety, the best way to get through it is to just start believing in yourself and you work through it.

[34:14] Tommy: I think that's what it's got.

[34:16] Tommy: I don't actually think it's got layers in that respect.

[34:19] Jimi: I would say there's a layer about technology and the future and our reliance on technology.

[34:27] Jimi: I would say there's a layer about the and maybe maybe this is my own perspectives becoming bigger in my mind than they are for the real world, but like the way it portrays high schoolers and contemporary high school challenges read very real to me, um, in a way that isn't discussed in a lot of other media um as accurately, I think.

[34:52] Jimi: Um I think talking about it about a show about overcoming anxiety, it it is such a particular flavor of that that is so hyper contemporary, difficult to talk about, but something that I feel is a huge commonality among adolescents today, yeah, like that it speaks to its gigantic appeal.

[35:16] Tommy: Um and like doesn't conclude it in a great sort of way.

[35:21] Tommy: Um like that makes it more powerful to me than a two and a half hour long metaphor about our founding fathers and how it applies to America today.

[35:33] Jimi: Um not that that's yeah, okay, but I do see what you mean, and I can see definitely for for teens, that is a big reason why it's because it is that thing, it's like, oh my god, you're speaking, you know, you're thinking exactly what I'm thinking, and that is great for teens.

[35:50] Tommy: Yeah.

[35:50] Tommy: Maybe maybe the way to qualify it for me is like take the audience members who go see something like Be More Chill, and the audience members who go see Hamilton on aggregate, right?

[36:03] Tommy: And stereotype or classify the changes in thought they might make in their life based upon seeing that piece.

[36:12] Tommy: I think more people will leave Be More Chill changed than people will leave Hamilton changed.

[36:19] Jimi: Interesting, and that to me is powerful and uh important and like part of why I do theatre and art and why I think I would take towards this.

[36:30] Tommy: Let me muse on that for a second.

[36:32] Tommy: Um I think yes, would agree, but um again, the change would be surface level.

[36:52] Jimi: I saw real talk, uh you know, f I mean, heck, we live in the 21st century, we've all got anxiety issues.

[37:00] Tommy: Yeah.

[37:00] Jimi: Um, as someone who has been deeply affected by that around this time, and I'm talking I mean, what I mean is uh high school time.

[37:08] Tommy: Yeah.

[37:09] Jimi: Um, you know, I could be one of these school kids.

[37:12] Tommy: Yeah.

[37:12] Jimi: Uh I uh found ways to cope, found ways to get through it.

[37:19] Tommy: This musical doesn't give me anything new.

[37:23] Jimi: It's just like it just tells me something I already know.

[37:26] Tommy: Yeah.

[37:27] Jimi: Interesting.

[37:28] Jimi: And I do I do see what what I think we're developing here, I think what we're kind of coming to is the fact that there is a huge demographic of people who this will speak to their soul.

[37:41] Tommy: Right.

[37:41] Jimi: And there are a huge demographic of people who can recognize that, but they've gone through the change.

[37:49] Tommy: Right.

[37:49] Jimi: And they're they're like, they've seen Ah yes, I remember it becomes a nostalgia piece almost.

[37:54] Tommy: Almost, exactly.

[37:56] Jimi: How awkward was high school.

[37:57] Tommy: Yeah, uh-huh.

[37:58] Jimi: And it is it's that like that show was lovely compared to that show changed my life.

[38:02] Tommy: Yeah, yeah, I do see that.

[38:04] Jimi: And I do think, you know, I think the discussion is like, is Be More Chill more revolutionary than every other stereotypical John Hughes style discussion of adolescence that has ever existed and come before it.

[38:20] Tommy: From uh Ferris Bueller's Day Off, 16 Campbells.

[38:25] Jimi: Thank you.

[38:25] Tommy: Yes, yes, you know Breakfast Club.

[38:27] Jimi: Breakfast Club.

[38:28] Tommy: Yeah, cool, cool.

[38:29] Tommy: You know, but then Mean Girls, which is decidedly imitating John Hughes' films, Glee.

[38:34] Jimi: Yep.

[38:34] Tommy: Like, like this is this is a trope.

[38:36] Jimi: This is a huge trope.

[38:37] Tommy: This is a big old trope.

[38:39] Jimi: That continues to exist.

[38:40] Jimi: And my I like, if I'm wagering, if I'm putting all my cards down, I think Be More Chill, both the novel and then the musical, put a unique and interesting spin, regardless of the sci-fi tropes that kind of seep through it, on that high school story that I haven't that I haven't seen before, that I haven't tasted before, that encapsulates the like mid-2000s to 2018 kind of, you know, post-millennial teenager.

[39:16] Tommy: So I think one of the things that makes Be More Chill good in that respect is because it has this sci-fi element.

[39:25] Jimi: Right.

[39:26] Tommy: Um what that does is it does kind of take you out of it.

[39:31] Jimi: Right.

[39:32] Tommy: Um so I'm gonna pull up Dear Evan Hansen here and dangle it beside uh uh and I know you've got something you're talking about, but we'll talk about it in a sec.

[39:39] Jimi: Uh-huh.

[39:40] Tommy: I'm gonna dangle up beside.

[39:41] Tommy: Um so obviously, you know, the two of them are talking about very, very similar things.

[39:47] Jimi: Oh, yes, um talk about the dangers of parallel creation.

[39:50] Tommy: Yeah.

[39:51] Tommy: Um so what I would say that Be More Chill does, that I don't think Dear Evan Hansen does as successfully, um, is it doesn't romanticize the anxiety, it doesn't romanticize these deep dark feelings to a point where it's like they seem glorious, they seem unreachable.

[40:10] Jimi: Yes.

[40:11] Tommy: Um what be more chill does is it makes them it normalizes them.

[40:16] Jimi: Yes.

[40:17] Tommy: I this is a thing I said to my boyfriend yesterday, and he said you can't say that on the podcast, people will hate you.

[40:24] Jimi: Um I'm gonna say it right now.

[40:26] Jimi: I think Be More Chill is the musical that Dear Evan Hansen wants to be.

[40:33] Tommy: I I I genuinely agree.

[40:35] Jimi: Um yeah.

[40:37] Jimi: And I I to be honest though, right?

[40:39] Tommy: Yeah, I don't think it will take long before other people start thinking that too.

[40:44] Jimi: Yeah, and and I think it is partially to do with the sci-fi element because it's like a it's a misdirection.

[40:50] Jimi: It's like, look over here, look over here.

[40:51] Jimi: Oh, robots, ooh, computers, you know.

[40:54] Jimi: But like the core of discussion of teenagers in this is so real.

[41:02] Tommy: Um which I know that always makes me sound like a hashtag adult when I start talking about these things.

[41:07] Tommy: And I sit like I have these discussions with the kids that I'm responsible for, and I see their faces glaze over, and I don't know a way to articulate like, but I do understand what they actually do, not in the way that adults think they do.

[41:24] Jimi: Um then also that I realize that that may just be I don't understand.

[41:28] Tommy: Exactly, exactly.

[41:29] Jimi: That's probably it.

[41:30] Jimi: But you know, we'll say it anyway, right?

[41:32] Tommy: Um, but like and I know a lot of the dis depictions of high school in this are glorified or romanticized in the same way they are in high school musical, in high school John Hughes style movies, these sorts of things.

[41:45] Jimi: Like there aren't I'm in high school musical, by the way.

[41:48] Tommy: Right.

[41:49] Tommy: But like there aren't, you know, wicked raging benders every weekend in high school.

[41:55] Jimi: But they happen, you know.

[41:57] Tommy: Yeah, and they happen on Halloween.

[41:58] Jimi: Yeah.

[41:59] Tommy: It's not just, oh, it's Saturday night guys. And kids are met with these terribly awkward, impossible to deal with social situations that they are so poorly equipped to deal with, not because of any fault of their own, but just because of where they are in life and what they've experienced, and because of how difficult they are, because of how actually difficult they are, which is a thing that Be More Chill understands and depicts, and as you said, doesn't you know terribly glorify or romanticize, you know.

[42:35] Jimi: Like my big problem with Dear Evan Hansen is making Evan Hansen the hero.

[42:38] Tommy: Like he's a shithead.

[42:40] Jimi: Um he's such a dick in a way that I don't think humans would be as fully and completely in real life.

[42:50] Tommy: Um where Dear of No, not at all. Where Be More Chill gets closer, and because it gets to hide under some of the satire of like the smartphone hour and the sci-fi ness of it all, and some of the things.

[43:04] Jimi: I would say I would even just keep like nailing this point and say Michael in the bathroom.

[43:09] Tommy: Like Michael in the bathroom, the first time I listened to it without really listening to it. I thought, oh, cool, comedy staple.

[43:15] Jimi: Right.

[43:15] Tommy: You know what I mean? Tenor new tenor comedy staple, fab. And then you listen to it like, oh, actually, oh, it's actually talking about something.

[43:21] Jimi: Yeah.

[43:21] Tommy: Um, but it's not being like, I am really struggling here.

[43:26] Jimi: Yeah.

[43:27] Tommy: You know, the dark thoughts that are in my head. You know, I mean, it's not laboring poetry, it's just saying I'm having a shit time.

[43:32] Jimi: Yeah.

[43:33] Tommy: And it has no conclusion. It's not not even that it doesn't have a positive conclusion, it doesn't have a conclusion. It's just there.

[43:40] Jimi: This is a stolen comment from one of the documentaries about the cast album. Um, but one of the cast members says Joe Iconis writes songs about moments that you think would never deserve a song.

[43:53] Tommy: Um, and that's Michael in the bathroom.

[43:55] Jimi: Absolutely. It's absolutely um, and it's I think that it's those little things that really that make it a very a strong piece.

[44:03] Tommy: Yeah. Because I I don't know. I kind of get the first time I listened to Dear Evan Hansen, obviously it'd been hyped to hell.

[44:12] Jimi: Yeah.

[44:13] Tommy: But I kind of went into it and I was like, it just makes me feel a bit nauseous more than anything else, you know, because it's it's really talking about these big things. We talked about it, was it in Heathers, I guess?

[44:25] Jimi: Um we talked about 13 Reasons Why.

[44:28] Tommy: Yeah, yeah. You know, I mean, another extremely problematic television show that I still don't think should be on the air. Um there is this flavor of teenager that exists right now. Um that adults are really, really struggling to deal with, adults who deal with teenagers, um, that is this like hyper anxiety, socially connected um uh introvert, yeah, introvert, but still, you know, has a more social connections than any 14-year-old has any good reason to have.

[45:05] Jimi: Exactly.

[45:06] Tommy: You know, is so stressed about a bazillion social contracts they have that are constantly morphing and changing. Um we all that we all know on the outside don't mean diddly squat, but they'll never see that.

[45:19] Jimi: Yeah, well, the one of our school counselors has said on multiple times, like um about teenagers, puppy love is still true love to a puppy.

[45:29] Tommy: Um, that's beautiful.

[45:31] Jimi: Isn't that good?

[45:32] Tommy: On a crochet pillow.

[45:33] Jimi: Oh.

[45:33] Tommy: Right this second. It's such a wonderful sentiment that, like, when you're in high school, that's all you know. Not to minimize it, but to expand upon it. Like this is your whole world, and so it's important, and it's all you have. And so these inter social relationships. And the thing that this is, I think, where the sci-fi n of Be More Chill expands it into people who aren't quite in the circle anymore. Is Be More Chill makes these teenage social contracts as real and important and gigantic to the rest of the world. Like, you know, I know I endangered the entire school and probably half of humanity by what I was doing. And like, even if you're not in high school anymore, suddenly Jeremy's actions and how the squip is influencing him start to have these real world effects in a way that they feel like they should for Joe Average high schooler.

[46:27] Tommy: Absolutely.

[46:28] Jimi: Absolutely. I think I said I think that is where the kind of you know, the adults watching this show would get the inkling because I mean I I don't I don't know what it was like to go to parties in the 80s or the 70s. Um like maybe adults were you know, adults, adults now, then when they were young, uh were locking themselves in the bathroom feeling really anxious.

[46:53] Tommy: Yeah, I just feel like it I know I understand anxiety's always been there, but I feel like it's because it's a hot topic and it's somehow kind of worked its way, you know, like the Squip, weirdly enough, into the minds of all of these children.

[47:07] Jimi: Yeah, um, that it has become its own thing. And I think um songs like Michael in the Bathroom just really help show that look, it's you know, they're not trying to say the the world is ending. They're just trying to say I'm having a really tough time.

[47:22] Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just there's a hyper youthful voice to it. The the one the lines that stick out to me, and they happen in a couple different songs, um, but there's a surprising amount of depression and contemplation of suicide in this show, not in a deep uh like worrisome way, right?

[47:47] Jimi: Yeah, exactly.

[47:48] Tommy: Um Christine jokes about it in play rehearsal, like, I'm depressed, not like kill yourself depressed, no, I'm not until self-harm. Here, see, check my arm. Um, Michael jokes about it in Michael in the bathroom, like something something, or just off myself instead. And that's like that's the way I hear teenagers talk, and as an adult who's responsible for their well-being, it's very off-putting. Because I'm like, Are you you're not just gonna go home and kill yourself, are you? And like, they're not, and they don't, but I'm worried about it, but it's just their vernacular because of how important these things are to them.

[48:28] Jimi: Now, I'm gonna I've just this has just popped into my head.

[48:30] Tommy: Yeah.

[48:31] Jimi: What do you think about things like Thirteen Reasons Why, Dear Evan Hansen popping these things into the their heads?

[48:37] Tommy: Yeah. I think it's a a huge mixed bag. Um the watching like um the I was between schools at the time. Um, but I have a bunch of teacher friends when who were teaching when Thirteen Reasons was coming out super popular and premiering. Um and there were schools across America that had like full-fledged suicide watch assemblies because of how popular those things were. You know, I think Dear Evan Hansen puts a different kind of spin on it.

[49:07] Jimi: Um and there is like there are all sorts of school action plans and thing and uh procedures put in place about things like adolescent suicide.

[49:17] Tommy: Um because they can prop they can be self-propagating.

[49:23] Jimi: Um and so you have to be, as a responsible adult, super delicate how you approach these things and how you talk about these things.

[49:30] Tommy: Um and so then to see media, you know, there's two there's two perspectives either going into it with reckless abandon or talking about it in a serious, forward thinking, frank kind of way.

[49:43] Jimi: Yeah.

[49:43] Tommy: Um and I think Be More Chill finds that balance. Where like it's it's real, it's you know, but is still just distant enough that you're not totally threatened by it. Um that it leaves you with the positive outcomes as opposed to the negative outcomes.

[50:02] Jimi: Um but I do, you know, kids calling them kids seems so demeaning, and I never hate it. I never mean it that way, but there's no good, you know, adolescents, youth, teenagers, folk folk younger than us. The the growing people that I work with every day.

[50:22] Tommy: Yeah, beautiful are so ridiculously complex and so much smarter than I'll ever be in their own collective knowledge, and like they're a teenager's bullshit detectors are so acute and so fully attuned.

[50:43] Jimi: And so these things that enter their life, you like Dear Evan Hansen, like 13 Reasons Why, like Be More Chill, um have to be so perfectly tuned to not set off those bullshit detectors, to not like totally exit their life. Um that I think speaks to how real they must feel. Whether they're actually real, whether it's an actual real representation of what teenage life is like, doesn't matter as much because it is their perception of what life is like, and at the end of the day, all that matters is how important this stuff feels to them, you know.

[51:23] Tommy: Yeah.

[51:24] Jimi: Absolutely. So long story short, it's why I do think this is more impactful than Hamilton.

[51:36] Tommy: I really do.

[51:38] Jimi: And I think more impactful than Dear Evan Hansen.

[51:41] Tommy: Oh, hands down, give you that. Um I think the the the thing I struggle with with that question that you're giving me is that um it to a certain audience I would completely agree. You know, I mean, to this youthful audience.

[51:59] Jimi: Yeah.

[52:00] Tommy: I do completely agree, which is a big part. Um, but I think I'd I I think there are a lot of adults who would be ignorant to it.

[52:06] Jimi: Yeah.

[52:07] Tommy: And I think there are a lot of adults who are going to poo-poo it.

[52:10] Jimi: Yeah.

[52:10] Tommy: But I think that's part of that you the without knowing it, you're arguing my point. Um, because I think having impact with a youthful audience weighs heavier than having impact with an adult audience.

[52:25] Jimi: I totally agree with you.

[52:26] Tommy: I totally because you know, I believe that children are the future.

[52:29] Jimi: Right.

[52:30] Tommy: Whether whether we like it or not, they're gonna grow up.

[52:32] Jimi: And then exactly they're gonna live longer.

[52:34] Tommy: To me, their opinion counts more.

[52:37] Jimi: Yeah, it's that kind of thing.

[52:38] Tommy: Exactly. Um, but I guess I just took it as a straight question rather than thinking what do you mean by this? But yeah, I do see I do see your point. I'd like to think on it before making bold statements as such.

[52:51] Jimi: What why would you do that?

[52:53] Tommy: I know.

[52:54] Jimi: Um, but I do I do take your point. And I would say for that demographic, I I would completely agree.

[52:58] Tommy: Yeah.

[52:59] Jimi: There's nothing like it. I I think, you know, in a practical sense, especially with the momentum it's gaining and the upcoming off-Broadway production.

[53:07] Tommy: Yep.

[53:07] Jimi: Dear Evan Hansen is going to be a force. Be More Chill is going to be a force to be reckoned with.

[53:14] Tommy: Um in the coming months to years.

[53:18] Jimi: Um, segue of the month.

[53:21] Tommy: Uh, let's talk about that rise to power.

[53:24] Jimi: Let's do it.

[53:24] Tommy: It's from Japan. It's a gray oblong pill.

[53:30] Jimi: Quantum nanotechnology CPU.

[53:35] Tommy: The quantum computer in the pill will travel through your blood until it implants in your brain and it tells you what to do.

[53:45] Jimi: So it's like drugs.

[53:50] Tommy: It's better than drugs, Jeremy.

[53:53] Jimi: It's from Japan!

[53:56] Tommy: It's just grey, a long pill. Quantum nanotechnology CPU computer and the pill will travel through your blood until it implants in your brain and it tells you what to do.

[54:17] Jimi: It's pre-programmed.

[54:19] Tommy: It's amazing. Speaks to you directly you behave.

[54:26] Jimi: I mean, it's not crazy.

[54:44] Tommy: Picture there.

[54:46] Jimi: Yes.

[54:46] Tommy: There's nobody can like the I feel like I feel like the the Broadway press is just kind of like, what?

[54:53] Jimi: Yeah.

[54:54] Tommy: Because everyone's just realized that this is this musical is huge.

[54:57] Jimi: Yeah.

[54:58] Tommy: And uh they're like, oh wait, hang on, wait, be more chill. Um yes, millennials. There's dozen dozens of internet people who are like, How did you miss this? How did you not see this coming?

[55:09] Jimi: Uh so my question to you, I think we've discovered this around the same time. I remember speaking about it.

[55:14] Tommy: Yeah.

[55:16] Jimi: And I think it was shortly after the cast recording got released.

[55:19] Tommy: Yeah, yeah, I absolutely think so.

[55:20] Jimi: I'm trying to think of it. Like 2016.

[55:22] Tommy: Yeah, I made it a show of the week a while back, but it was after I'd heard about it for a while.

[55:26] Jimi: Um, it it definitely entered my lexicon after it had closed.

[55:34] Tommy: Yeah, oh, absolutely, absolutely. I heard about it. Um, there's a uh musical theatre radio station in the UK who had Joe Iconis on.

[55:41] Jimi: Um and he was just chatting about it, and I think he was selling it, so I guess that would have been or maybe it was just selling the cast recording.

[55:48] Tommy: Yeah, but there was a promo element to it, so maybe the cast recording was just coming out.

[55:52] Jimi: Um, and that was the first time I heard I was like, oh, that sounds like full of oil. I'm intrigued. And I listed it and I was like, oh, wait, this is good. Um so I feel like you know, hey, we were there at the start. Let's give it back. Yeah, sure, we can say that without too much like posers. Um yeah, oh, we are. Let's let's let's not deny that. Um, but just in the sense that I've been listening to this musical for a long, long time. Yeah, yeah. You know, because it does keep coming back. Yeah. It does it keeps popping up. It keeps showing up again. You know, it's it's damn catchy. It really, really is. And so I'm not here to say, oh, we discovered it. You know, we're why why you are you're being so slow.

You know, I'm not saying that because everyone has to discover it one time. But that's the question. Who did, right? Um I know. How did how did this happen? Yeah. I never expected it to happen. Yeah. No. I didn't because it to me it was Heathers. To me, that was Heathers. Heathers did that, and it was like, oh, okay, that's really funny. That's really free. But Heathers has a pop culture following as a movie and way in. But Be More Chill, you know, it is it is not even Ned Vizzini's most popular book. Like Yeah. I don't have a clue who Ned Vizzini is. I don't think he's ever touched over here. And yet, he's got um kind of a funny story. He is a book he wrote that was adapted into a movie. He his story's very tragic.

He committed suicide in the 2000s. Um but so like it the how who who how did this happen? You know? Because we're in this world. We watch this world of internet musical theater culture, and this one just kind of like you're all a sudden tumbler for two seconds. Right. And then everyone's making animators. Yeah. Yeah. Um because I feel like that's it. Like when we talk when we talked about Heathers, it wasn't that long ago. Yeah. It was like I I don't know, like half a year ago, something like that. Um it still wasn't on the radar. It had already kind of like outsailed its popularity. Yeah. Where it's like Be More Chill is going off Broadway, and the world is dying about it. Like it's so exciting.

The world is like blessed. I've never seen the word blessed used more than the YouTube comments of anything to do with Be More Chill. Yeah. Like I'm so excited for the ability to see this show performed. You know, regardless of uh half the original cast and uh what's his face from Dear Evan Hansen. Um but like the it and especially if this gets a Broadway transfer, I can't think of another show whose amateur theatrical rights were released before the possibility of a Broadway transfer was even like a uh twinkle in someone's eye, you know. Absolutely, absolutely. Or for a show to enter the Billboard charts before it got you know what I mean? Yeah, like never, yeah, never, maybe Heather's, I don't know.

But never. Yeah. Like a crazy timeline. It's absolutely bonkers. Um and the thing is, is I don't think we'll be able to find an answer because no one can explain why things go viral. Right. You know, sometimes there are aggregates and sometimes there are these but I do think that's the thing, is this show went viral. Viral. A show, a musical theater, a show went viral. In a in a day and age where like that's possible. We're like things can do that. So the thing is, is we can compare it to something like Hamilton. Hamilton also went viral, absolutely. But what Hamilton had was a producing team behind it and Lem Manuel Miranda behind it, and you know, and marketing teams and ham for ham and a weekly YouTube show and all these things.

A stunning campaign. Talk show appearance. Nothing. Nothing. This had literally nothing. It appeared. Yeah. This is, I mean, I find it so heartening, you know, the the theme of this year's podcast has been how sad we are about the current Broadway season. Yeah. This gives me such unending hope for things like this. That's something, you know, in the same way that Deer of Enhanson kind of co-opted, but like a grassroots fan base. Entirely, you know, with a foundation in pure artistry and relatability that has nothing to do with a marketing team, that has nothing to do with popularity or a franchise that it's related to, but it's just good and people like it, and so it does well. Exactly. Um so why do people like it?

I guess we've talked about that a little bit already. Yeah. Um, but I think one of the things uh that is the most appealing to it and to this, you know, millennial generation. I hate that word, but it doesn't matter. They're actually, I went to a talk recently. Kids younger than us aren't millennials anymore. The new phrase Early Generation X. No, Generation X is before us. Are we Generation X? We're millennials. Generation X. We are millennials. Generation X grew up watching X Files. That's a good way to help. Wait, am I not Generation X then? Well, think like adolescence in the 90s. Not not pubest, not like being a young kid in the 90s, but like being a teenager in the 90s. That's genuine.

Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay, yeah. Um, but the new term they're using for um basically kids who have been born since the iPhone existed. Um are I gen, which I'm I gen, I picked I did I looked this up, and the next one is gonna be called like Generation Alpha or something like that. Oh, I don't know. I think that's too early. I think that's what the mixed We've already called it of the next generation. You are a generation generationalist. Um but like the the kids I teach are part of Igen now, are not millennials. Okay, great. So these lovely Igen team um uh you know are very aware and very um astute about important topics, yeah. Um and in fact they talk about it in Be More Chill very, very subtly. It was in my love play rehearsal of all the songs, um and uh Christine says, uh I've got mad gigantic feelings, renophantic feelings about most everything like gun control, um like spring, yeah, you know, and that's fine.

But it's that thing is like very, very young children are very very aware of big issues and age and the commentary that a a kid that age might have similarly passionate feelings about gun control and the perennial season of spring. Yes, exactly, exactly. Um so I think one of the things that obviously makes this very appealing is it comes from an extremely liberal standpoint, yeah. Um, and a very, very it's a very left-wing show. Um, and that's something actually that the more you delve into it, the more you uncover. Um and I want to come at it from an LGBT standpoint, okay. Right at the start. Yeah. Um because so the first time I listened to it, I got pissed off because I was like, come on. Like, like it's 2015, why are there no gays?

Do you know what I mean? Gimme give me something. Yeah. Um. And then I read about it, and I've it turns out, oh, actually, one of the characters is bisexual. Right. And comes out over the course of the show. Exactly. And I was like, oh, okay. Yeah. I'll give you that. Um, and then I start looking into Tumblr and I'm like, oh my gosh, I've never seen this much um like slash fanfiction since even before the slash fan fiction. Can I tell you in um more than survive? Like, I this is a struggle for me. Um, I love gay jokes. Uh-huh. I really as as a very gay man myself, I really enjoy a particular brand of joke where like you say, like, man, that's so fucking gay. Or like in the right context, yeah, making the perfect joke to say, like, man, that's you're such a faggot.

Um, which like I struggle to say out loud out of context right now, because I know how demeaning those words are, and I know the like cultural and social history they have, but I think there is something powerful and honestly funny about the particular usage of them, but there's a bazillion caveats attached to it. Uh-huh. And the gay jokes that this show makes fall into that category perfectly for me. Yeah. Um, about signing up for the play, you know, signing up for being called gay, um, and then he signs up for the play and is like, gay, ha ha! I like gay people. Um it's it's so funny. Um it's just so silly. It's so silly because and as well, like it is a it's a total thing. I mean, it's a total thing.

We've gone through that. When we all came out in high school, it was very much like, oh my god, I love gays. Yes, it's so real. It's so and like it does the it comes a lot out of the book, which was maybe we'll talk a little bit more about the book later, but the book was literally decades ahead of its time. It came out in 2004. Um, which is crazy for how much technology is in it. They reference um there's a bunch of jokes about remembering phone numbers in it, and once you have a squip, you don't have to remember anyone's phone number anymore. Uh which like that's not like we don't have to remember anyone's phone number anyway. Um like uh at one point Jeremy describes the squip as like having a PDA inside your brain.

Um which is really funny. So funny, right? But I haven't heard that word in so long. Exactly. [1:05:00] Um, but there's also there's a huge subplot in the book about um Jeremy stealing his aunt's beanie babies to sell them on eBay to make the money to buy the squip. [1:06:04] Yeah, um, which doesn't make it into the musical at all. [1:06:07] But his dad catches him looking at beanie babies on eBay um like accidentally, and so then he has to keep up this whole ruse about looking at beanie babies on eBay because it's a thing he's interested in. [1:06:20] Um but his dad is like, son, are you gay? You could tell us if you were gay, but are you gay? [1:06:28] And he's like, I'm not I'm not gay, I'm not gay, but I keep looking at beanie babies on the internet, so I understand why my father might think that.

[1:06:35] Um and like I find that so funny, and I understand how some people might find that offensive, but I think it's I don't find it offensive, you know? [1:06:44] No, it's not, it's the lightest of you know I mean humours is great. [1:06:48] Well, and it's I've got 12 beanie babies sitting in my bedroom right now. [1:06:51] Right? [1:06:52] It's it's admission. It's normalizing. It's yeah, you know, we can joke about this the same way we can joke about other things that uh you know are less impactful for our life. [1:07:02] Totally. [1:07:03] Um so yeah, so further delving into it in the slash fiction and all of that, um, I was like, okay, let's think about Michael here. [1:07:14] Um because a lot of people, you know, the the biggest like the stands are always I think they have names actually, so they're called the um the boy wrens because that's what happens.

[1:07:25] Because that's what happens to their backpack. [1:07:26] That's a good one. [1:07:27] And I can't remember what the there's a Michael uh I think that's Michael Jake, it might be Michael Rich. [1:07:33] Um one of them is called like expensive headphones. [1:07:36] Oh my god. [1:07:37] And I'm sure that's a deep reference that I just don't I don't get it. [1:07:40] I haven't found it yet. [1:07:41] Well, Michael, Michael has expensive headphones, but I think man, the internet is infinitely fractal. [1:07:47] I know. [1:07:48] So um this is how deep I've gone with this in terms of my research. [1:07:52] But um a lot of uh the fans of the show um emailed uh the book writer, um Joe Joe Trace.

[1:08:03] Joe Trace. [1:08:04] Um he has been really good actually because he seems to reply to all of them, and then people will screenshot it and upload it to Tumblr. [1:08:12] Of course. [1:08:13] Um it's really insightful because you do find out quite a lot about the process, and obviously people are fascinated because they need to know if their head canon of Michael and whoever is true. [1:08:28] And so what um Joe Trace said was that initially in the first draft of the script, Michael would talk about girls. [1:08:35] Yeah. [1:08:35] Well, and that's that's from the book. [1:08:37] In the in the book, he has a girlfriend. [1:08:39] He's got a girlfriend, doesn't he? [1:08:40] Yeah, uh-huh.

[1:08:40] Um then as it went on, they decided just to take that out, and he's like, that can tell you as much as you need to know. [1:08:49] Um and I kinda love that. [1:08:51] I love that. [1:08:52] Because it's it it does, and it allows you, you know, he's got an LGBT flag on his jacket. [1:08:59] Right. [1:08:59] These little things. [1:09:00] Yeah. [1:09:02] And they don't talk about it, and there isn't ever a moment of you know, hey, I'm explicitly gay, let's talk about this for ten minutes. [1:09:10] Yeah. [1:09:10] Um, or I'm explicitly bi, or whatever. [1:09:13] Yeah, he's just kind of himself and he's got a really good friend who is of the same gender. [1:09:20] Like, it's it's normalizing to a place that I I feel like I haven't really seen in a long time in musical theater.

[1:09:28] Whether we're talking LGBT or just like the normalization of not hypermasculinity, you know, we can hang out in our basement and play video games and make is it really true I'm your favorite person kind of jokes, and have it be gay or not. [1:09:44] Um and have it not be a big deal. [1:09:47] Absolutely, and that's do you know that is the kind of thing if I was young and seeing that I'd be like, oh, that's quite cool, isn't it?

[1:09:54] Jimi: It's so empowering.

[1:09:55] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:09:56] Jimi: And I guess there's a part of me that would like there to be a moment of something in there, but also the thing, but the thing is, it's like if there was, they'd need to talk about it.

[1:10:08] Tommy: Right.

[1:10:08] Jimi: No, and that'd be no good.

[1:10:09] Tommy: And the second you talk about it, it's ruined.

[1:10:11] Jimi: There's a I've been trying to find the words around this. I think in contemporary fiction writing, whatever it is, whether it's musical theater or a book or a TV show, there's a particular threshold you pass in like universe creation that then pushes you down a hill of self-propagation that results in slash fiction and fanfiction and all these things that like, you know, Harry Potter did and Lord of the Rings did and Star Trek did, where like this world is cohesive enough and has enough information, but doesn't tell you all of the information, so it's not self-contained. To a point where you can start inventing plausible existences that fit inside this universe that I think is a thing that fiction writers should strive for that makes for good, you know, engaging fiction, and I think that Be More Chill, whether the book or the musical has done. Like you can imagine this whole world outside of the things that are given to you.

[1:11:25] Tommy: Um, I mean, Jimi, without that we would never have Fifty Shades of Grey, so God.

[1:11:30] Jimi: We are blessed.

[1:11:31] Tommy: Or Twilight, you know this story that Twilight started as a piece of Fifty Shades of Grey fanfiction.

[1:11:36] Jimi: Yeah, that's what I mean.

[1:11:38] Tommy: No, it wasn't it vice versa.

[1:11:40] Jimi: No, it's vice versa.

[1:11:41] Tommy: Fifty Shades of Grey started as a fanfiction of Twilight.

[1:11:44] Jimi: I don't even know anymore.

[1:11:45] Tommy: Is that true?

[1:11:46] Jimi: That is what it is, yeah, yeah.

[1:11:47] Tommy: Because it came after.

[1:11:48] Jimi: Oh, I hate it.

[1:11:49] Tommy: That's why I said Fifty Shades of Grey.

[1:11:51] Jimi: I hate that I made the assumption the other way now in my mind. I need to wash my mouth out with soap.

[1:11:55] Tommy: Is that okay if I do that really fast?

[1:11:57] Jimi: Yeah, that's absolutely fine.

[1:11:58] Tommy: Oh my god, can I tell you a fun fact?

[1:11:59] Jimi: Sure.

[1:12:00] Tommy: So once I swore in front of my parents I was quite young.

[1:12:02] Jimi: Uh huh.

[1:12:03] Tommy: And my dad said, Do you want to wash your mouth out with soap? And I said, Okay, and I went and did it.

[1:12:11] Jimi: But right, so as good as the LGBT side of things is, yes, applause.

[1:12:17] Tommy: Yes.

[1:12:18] Jimi: I'm kind of surprised by, but I guess you can't change it because it's based on a book, is the character of Christine.

[1:12:28] Tommy: What do you mean?

[1:12:33] Jimi: She's kind of like bland as hell.

[1:12:37] Tommy: Yeah, it's interesting.

[1:12:39] Jimi: So, honest question, and you can cut this if you want, but have you read the book?

[1:12:43] Tommy: No, no, no, no.

[1:12:44] Jimi: So I read the book. I read the book like last week. And if you're planning on reading the book, you absolutely should, because it is interesting. I think compare it like the book is better than the movie or whatever are stupid because they're different media. The book certainly has a different bent than the musical. Also, it came out in 2004, which I think has a very different ending as well, doesn't it?

[1:13:07] Tommy: Yes.

[1:13:08] Jimi: So the time it came out in puts it in just a very different world. Like it was definitely a like foreboding parable about the perils of technology, which I think in 2004 would have been met more with like, ha ha, what do you mean you could have instant access to any kind of data that happened in the world?

[1:13:31] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:13:32] Jimi: Like there's laughs about that in the book, where nowadays the internet exists. Like, this book came out before the internet was really a commonality.

[1:13:42] Tommy: Um before it was the thing in your pocket, yeah.

[1:13:44] Jimi: Yeah, exactly. Long before, you know, you have to have a phone call at your home. But like there's talks about the fact that in the book, Jeremy finds out from his squip super early that Rich set a fire and he burnt down the house, but no one else knows because they all have to call each other that morning.

[1:14:01] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:14:01] Jimi: This is what turned into smartphone hour, but like it's all landline sort of stuff. And like where Jeremy's mom, who's in the book, picks up and Jeremy's like, Mom, hang up! We need to talk about a thing, right? Which is just not a contemporary problem that people have.

[1:14:18] Tommy: I see.

[1:14:19] Jimi: But so spoilers, the book is divided into three sections. There's before Squip, after Squip, and then I think it's called Conclusion. The big changes in the book, the Squip is not an antagonist, it is a very like third-party helper. Which makes the moral very different. It's like technology exists and you use it or you abuse it, but that's your choice.

[1:14:46] Tommy: Totally, yeah.

[1:14:47] Jimi: There's no like the squip decides to squip the whole class. There's no Midsummer and Zombies. It doesn't have its own agenda.

[1:14:56] Tommy: Exactly.

[1:14:56] Jimi: The Squip decides that the way to get Christine is for Jeremy to stop their traditional production of Midsummer Night's Dream and have like a really heartfelt speech to the audience about how, you know, a bunch of kids got hurt in this fire, but we really need to come together, and I just need to say that I love you, Christine. That's the choice that the Squip has made, and it goes horribly, horribly wrong. And Christine runs off the stage, and the Squip deactivates itself temporarily in Jeremy's brain. And like Jeremy is totally distraught, and the squip comes back and is like, Man, I must be defective. You know, you gotta wait for Squip 3.0 because I'm Squip 2.0, and I hear they've made some improvements.

What do I do? And Michael shows up and he's like, I have some red mountain dew, and the squip is like, Yes, yes, you can deactivate me with that, and I should go away because clearly I can't help you. But then the Squip is like, Wait, what if we just told Christine everything? What if we just told her all that led up to this? This might be our only hope. And they're like, Well, how could we do this? And the squip is like, well, if you have a DVD burner, I might be able to access the DVD burner to burn myself a DVD. And Jeremy's like, no, what about a book? What if we made it a book? And the squip is like, sure, and I could censor some things, and I could, you know, reduce the amount of time you spend masturbating by 50%.

And we could type it all up in a book and then give it to her, and then the third section is like one page, and it says, So, Christine, that's how it happened. Thank you for reading. Enjoy. Um, yeah, and so there's a whole hugely different kind of meta story around the whole thing, and no happy ending, where they end up with each other.

[1:16:42] Tommy: Yeah, but it isn't it they're different stories, they are very different stories, which I find quite interesting because they all the all I feel like that Joe Iconis has done is just kind of taken the Faustian tale and run with it.

[1:16:54] Jimi: Yeah, but and it totally works, it's great.

[1:16:56] Tommy: It totally works.

[1:16:57] Jimi: Um, but yeah, so the character of Christine. So obviously, um the first time we hear about her is in um the opening, which is called More Than Survive.

[1:16:59] Tommy: More than survive.

[1:17:11] Jimi: Um, and it's like, oh, I'm in love with this girl called Christine, she's great. Um, and a very, you know, weirdly tangential Heathers thing where everyone's like, Heather, Heather, and this time it's Christine, you know, but that's fine. Um, and has this kind of like glowy vibe, and then we hear from Christine, and she sings about how much she loves the theatre, um, and how she uses kind of theatre as like a piece of escapism, um, and then we kind of don't hear from her again until uh she comes back and she sings about another guy that she fancies, right, and then we don't really hear from her again until uh the end where she's like yeah, I fancy you know right, let's get together, yeah.

[1:18:07] Tommy: Um to me it's very that is archaic, yeah.

[1:18:14] Jimi: They do that's archaic.

[1:18:16] Tommy: They do have a brief meeting during the Halloween party that is kind of heartwarming.

[1:18:21] Jimi: Um that's just dialogue.

[1:18:23] Tommy: Yeah, but does it does it give her it gives her a little bit more of a character, but she is pretty she is there to be the love interest, she's pretty one dimensional, which is unfortunate because in the book the whole point is that she's not one dimensional.

[1:18:37] Jimi: Yeah, exactly.

[1:18:37] Tommy: She kind of sticks up for herself. So this is the thing, is like I just feel um for a show that's so liberal and for a show that's so hashtag woke, do you know what I mean to to say that, yeah, um, I feel like it's missed a big old trick.

[1:18:52] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:18:53] Tommy: Because in the same way the thing is, is like so. If you look at kind of all of the females in this, they're all pretty one-dimensional.

[1:18:59] Jimi: They are, and they all just seem to want to have sex with Jeremy.

[1:19:02] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:19:03] Jimi: There's no one who's like you don't even get the um Janice Ian that you have in Mean Girls.

[1:19:09] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:19:09] Jimi: Do you know what I mean? Where it's like, I can't be artists and that shit, I believe in my own stuff.

[1:19:13] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:19:13] Jimi: Um it's very male focused.

[1:19:18] Tommy: Yeah, it really is.

[1:19:19] Jimi: And like I get their names confused, which also doesn't speak well.

[1:19:23] Tommy: Yeah, exactly.

[1:19:23] Jimi: What between like uh Chloe and Chloe and uh Madeline's in there somewhere as well, yeah, yeah. And like I think there's something to be said, they certainly have different personalities, and they do in the book as well about like, you know, who's more gossipy and who, you know, um is more jealous and who is more the popular girl, but it does it does fall into the female characters written by male authors kind of trap.

[1:19:49] Tommy: It really, really does for sad.

[1:19:51] Jimi: Yeah, it's just it is. It's just I feel like it's like, ah, wow, you didn't even have one number of because I feel like uh, you know, you could argue that play rehearsal is that number because that's a lovely thing to talk about. How you know, oh I have that, but it's um I don't know, I just feel you put it on you as pure character songs, you put play rehearsal up next to Michael in the bathroom.

[1:20:18] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:20:19] Jimi: As like intense character songs, and Michael in the bathroom is deep and honest and filled with like real human emotions and like play rehearsal, like ha ha ha, I'm a stereotype. Like kind of, do you know what I mean? And it is, it's that, and it's like, oh, that's nice. She's talking about something she loves, you know. You know, there she's not talking about, oh, I just want to find a lovely boy or something like that. You know, that's that's really nice, but it's they don't go anywhere with that. She's kind of like, here I am, I like theatre.

[1:20:48] Tommy: Yeah, and these are all the men that I love.

[1:20:51] Jimi: You know, I it's it's it's a pity. I feel like a pity. It really is. It's a it's a missed beat in this show.

[1:20:58] Tommy: Um but that's the thing, it's it's a misbeat in a show that is so on the money, right?

[1:21:04] Jimi: With so many things.

[1:21:06] Tommy: Um even just have a moment where um I guess they kind of have that moment and they're kind of let me just find the lyric again.

[1:21:13] Jimi: Yeah, and there there is talk about like you know because she does kind of say I have issues too.

[1:21:19] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:21:20] Jimi: Um, yeah, oh no, but no, actually, no I'll take it back. Um, because obviously she's like, Oh, I've got the voice in my head, and we've made up our collective mind that we want to go out with you.

[1:21:34] Tommy: Right, do you know what I mean?

[1:21:35] Jimi: For no particular reason. He hasn't really gotten too much. I actually think that's quite I think that's quite grim.

[1:21:40] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:21:40] Jimi: Do you know what I mean? That like all of my all of my doubts and things tell me that I should be with you, right, Jeremy.

[1:21:47] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:21:48] Jimi: It's it's where I wish they stuck a little more to the original book. Like, even just leave it ambiguous and let us set up the happy ending in our mind.

[1:21:56] Tommy: Yeah, exactly.

[1:21:58] Jimi: But they because the thing is it in in the sort of a dear Evan Hansen way as well, to make and I'm not gonna say so much better. Um, but uh he does do a lot of bad.

[1:22:08] Tommy: Yes, he saves everyone, right?

[1:22:10] Jimi: That is good, but with the help of Michael, yeah, in a big, big way. In fact, many ways, Michael is the one who really saves everyone.

[1:22:17] Tommy: Yeah, basically.

[1:22:19] Jimi: And so it's uh it does he deserve to get all of his happiness and Michael's there standing beside him being like, I'm a good sad cake.

[1:22:26] Tommy: Yeah, um, you know, tricky.

[1:22:28] Jimi: I just think, and I want the thing is, um what I wonder about all of this is will they will they make changes?

[1:22:37] Tommy: I don't know.

[1:22:38] Jimi: For off Broadway. It's a huge question I've had, especially since it's like published now.

[1:22:42] Tommy: Um exactly.

[1:22:44] Jimi: You know, and it has been I've been going, I've been trolling back through like um some earlier footage and things of this that exists. And there is like Joe Iconis did a TED talk about this show at one point. Where they sing some early drafts of songs that are like not terribly different, but they're it like they cut an autistic joke. There's a couple tiny changes like that, and so I know they're they're ready to make changes, or they're yeah, it is certainly a production team that like is willing to make changes, they're not just gonna keep it the way it is because that's how it is.

[1:23:18] Tommy: Uh huh.

[1:23:19] Jimi: But it's so entrenched. I've not I mean I'm not saying I'm a pioneer, but I've not seen anyone talk about this.

[1:23:26] Tommy: No.

[1:23:27] Jimi: I've never seen anyone talk about this.

[1:23:29] Tommy: I've seen a lot of people obsess over the guys.

[1:23:35] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:23:35] Tommy: I've not seen like, oh, here's some lovely Christine fan art.

[1:23:39] Jimi: No, it doesn't, it doesn't have good female representation in the way that something like Heathers does.

[1:23:45] Tommy: And Mean Girls to give it his plot is that's true, you know.

[1:23:48] Jimi: Um I've still not heard all from Mean Girls yet, but as the songs are rolling out, I'm like, oh, that's that's a nice message. You've got power, you've got choice. Yeah, you're not um you're not just a sex object. Yeah, exactly. And that's like, I don't know, it's tricky because uh in our you know, we're both very out and out feminists here. Um and it's a tricky one because you could argue, okay, well, Be More Chill is just the story of it's a story of guys and and friendship between guys and yeah, you know, guys saying that they should love each other uh a bit more, yeah, you know, because I think actually another another thing that I love about Be More Chill is um the plot line with his dad.

[1:24:30] Tommy: Yes.

[1:24:31] Jimi: Um and I think his dad's actually really for for such a small role, a really interesting and very complex character.

[1:24:39] Tommy: Yeah, absolutely who you know has gone through this divorce, yeah, um, is aware that he's kind of failing as a father, but doesn't really know how to fix it, yeah, and so then gives advice to his best friend to kind of like make up from where I left off.

[1:24:54] Jimi: Right, but then does bring it back around. But then you have Jeremy who basically is like filled with unrequited love for a girl he's just never met, you know.

[1:25:05] Tommy: Yeah, I wrote a letter to Christine about how I felt, and then I tore it up and flush it, and they basically seem to meet for the first time in play rehearsal.

[1:25:14] Jimi: Yeah, and I I do have a struggle with this, like I deserve this love because I have it kind of.

[1:25:24] Tommy: Yeah, exactly. It's like I saved you, yeah, you know, and it's like, well, yeah, I guess, but Michael brought the juice.

[1:25:30] Jimi: Right. It's like, but I'm in but I'm in love with you, and it's like, well, but yeah, but what about me? You know, yeah, absolutely, yeah.

[1:25:36] Tommy: I mean, um so I don't know, I can't see it changing, it's a big change.

[1:25:41] Jimi: Yeah, it'd be it'd be hard. I don't think you could do it with one or two lines here and there, and that's about all they might have room for.

[1:25:49] Tommy: Yeah, um yeah, but what I guess what I want to know is like um if we do have listeners who are listening, um, who are like big big stands of the show. Do you know what I mean?

[1:26:00] Jimi: It may have been there in the the Tumblr Realto.

[1:26:03] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:26:04] Jimi: Uh Did you clock this? Like because I feel like I j I generally feel like no one's mentioned this.

[1:26:11] Tommy: Yeah, that there's not great lady representation in this.

[1:26:15] Jimi: No, and it's like it's one of those things that um nowadays with you know the rise of feminism is something that we're talking about a lot more, and when we don't see it, something that's missing in musical theatre, and especially in these kinds of shows that are supposed to be hyper-progressive and the face of new musical theater, like where the heck are the feminists?

[1:26:37] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:26:39] Jimi: So it's it's just interesting.

[1:26:42] Tommy: It really is.

[1:26:43] Jimi: Just interesting.

[1:26:44] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:26:44] Jimi: Because it's a it's a little surprise. It's that you know that way like you get to know a child really, really well, uh, and then they do something you're like, that's that's kind of a characteristic.

[1:26:54] Tommy: Yeah, like when they say the bumble ball scares the fuck out of my younger brother.

[1:26:58] Jimi: Exactly, exactly. Um they lash out, or is that you know, and it's just slight, ever so slightly down in your estimation. You're like, oh and it does speak to that like musical theatre proper is still very much a a boys' club, um and that things like uh fun home are few and far between.

[1:27:20] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:27:21] Jimi: Um, which is but then but then again, actually, what I will say, and this will sound really silly, but this season is kind of in the season of the gal, in some ways.

[1:27:30] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:27:31] Jimi: In some ways, because with something like Once on a Silent.

[1:27:34] Tommy: Yes.

[1:27:35] Jimi: Uh, uh you know, where's the hyperfeminist piece? Super hyperfeminist, um, something obviously like Mean Girls.

[1:27:42] Tommy: Yep.

[1:27:42] Jimi: Uh, uh something like frozen.

[1:27:45] Tommy: Like frozen, you know, and like The Love Between Two Sisters. Even Spongebob Tina Lando directing, like there's there's some really nice strides happening here. Um I don't I don't know. I just find it uh just interesting.

[1:27:56] Tommy: So I would like this is this is the kind of you know, this will be like my Reddit discussion point. Um I'd I would love to talk to people what they think about this. And I'm not this is it, I'm not saying hate this musical, right? Go, tear down Tumblr. That's never gonna happen. But that kind of idea of like this musical was so close to ticking all of the boxes.

[1:28:16] Jimi: Right, and there's it's just missing a few.

[1:28:18] Tommy: It's just missing it.

[1:28:20] Jimi: That's that doesn't happen.

[1:28:22] Tommy: Right.

[1:28:22] Jimi: Like this musical doesn't pass the Beckdell test, which I know is like terribly unequipped to kind of measure some of these things, but it could. It I think it easily could just another character, right? Give me I don't know, just something, a little, a little something.

[1:28:41] Tommy: Yeah, the girls don't all need to be obsessed with the guys.

[1:28:43] Jimi: Right. Or, you know, let's throw it out the window. Maybe Christine says no at the end, and it's more of a dear Evan Hansen ending, where it's like, yeah, you're you suck, and that's how we're gonna leave our life. You know, and like we can still sing a happy song at the end, but like we're not getting everyone's not gonna dance around us because of how happy they are that we're in love.

[1:29:02] Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

[1:29:05] Jimi: And just yeah. So they a point, a point, a point to make I'm gonna get death threats.

[1:29:12] Tommy: Probably not.

[1:29:14] Jimi: I hope not. Please don't give me death threats. I don't want to get into that.

[1:29:17] Tommy: They're gonna give you life threats.

[1:29:19] Jimi: You're gonna be alive tomorrow, or else.

[1:29:26] Tommy: You're always quite low to Jeremy.

[1:29:32] Jimi: Can I invade you?

[1:29:35] Tommy: And you upgrade it.

[1:29:38] Jimi: Oh Jeremy.

[1:29:41] Tommy: It's true that I found you.

[1:29:44] Jimi: But look around you.

[1:29:46] Tommy: Whoa!

[1:29:49] Jimi: All your peers are just so fucking eat.

[1:29:54] Tommy: You can't see it but they're all in a parading systems, absolutely be eat.

[1:30:03] Jimi: Let's complete the chains and get inside those brains. Let's save the pitiful children. Let's save the pitiful children. Let's teach the pitiful children. Who just happened to clue just what to do?

[1:30:24] Tommy: Mm-hmm.

[1:30:37] Jimi: You can see the vision clearly too. So before we conclude.

[1:30:43] Tommy: Yes.

[1:30:44] Jimi: Um, I kinda wanna look we've charted this quite well, actually. I feel good or good on us and instructor. Yeah, we talked about the content, talked about the themes, how it's risen to power, and kind of I now want to look to the future.

[1:30:57] Tommy: Yes.

[1:30:58] Jimi: Um what you know, as B Mortil is Be More Chill Is it uh uh what what's that word? Like uh a sign, a beacon um of the shape of things to come.

[1:31:16] Tommy: I'd sure hope so.

[1:31:19] Jimi: So I do and I don't.

[1:31:23] Tommy: Okay.

[1:31:24] Jimi: In some ways.

[1:31:25] Tommy: So in terms of the content, absolutely.

[1:31:27] Jimi: Yes.

[1:31:28] Tommy: Great job.

[1:31:28] Jimi: Yes. In terms of how it happened, worries me a little bit.

[1:31:33] Tommy: Okay.

[1:31:34] Jimi: So um the only professional production that's ever happened of this was in New Jersey.

[1:31:42] Tommy: Right.

[1:31:43] Jimi: Um, in the two, what is it, two rivers?

[1:31:46] Tommy: Two Rivers Theatre.

[1:31:47] Jimi: Um there have been other productions, uh there's great ones in Australia according to Wikipedia. Um there uh have been one in the States, I think again in New Jersey, um, with a company called Exit 82.

[1:32:05] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:32:06] Jimi: Um, which was an amateur production of Be More Chill that I feel must have broken the record for like popularity of amateur productions in the world everywhere.

[1:32:19] Tommy: 100%.

[1:32:20] Jimi: People traveled across continents to get to get to see this show.

[1:32:25] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:32:26] Jimi: And this isn't this is an an amateur an amateur production.

[1:32:28] Tommy: Yeah that's never that's never happened before.

[1:32:31] Jimi: Yeah. Um, you know, they were saying that uh at the at the theatre when they were doing kind of like a a post show, they had to get security to monitor the crowds.

[1:32:44] Tommy: Yeah, like they it was entirely unexpected, exactly how popular it was gonna be.

[1:32:50] Jimi: Absolutely. And you know, the the actors in this show have like fan art, right? Fan accounts.

[1:32:57] Tommy: Yeah, and you know uh stands and things. And I'm like, that is odd.

[1:33:06] Jimi: Yeah. To me. I don't think it's necessarily good. Um because I just don't think it's the right forum for it.

[1:33:17] Tommy: Um, I'm not saying you shouldn't see amateur shows, but you absolutely should.

[1:33:22] Jimi: Right. Um, but the way you behave around it, yeah, and the understanding that you have around it, I think needs to be tweaked. Um and it was beautifully put in a Tumblr post that I read today. Um, where someone was like, I really hope that Exit 82 production doesn't kind of set the precedent for the shape of things to come.

[1:33:46] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:33:46] Jimi: I actually I'm gonna find it because I want to credit whoever it is, just in case they listen. Um, perfect, it's like number two. Um okay, so I'm just gonna read it for Betum. This this is from I think this was the original user, uh, dear Davy Jacobs, of course, a Darren Hansen Venet. Um please don't let the audience of the NYC production of Be More Chill be like Exit 82. I know it's just been announced, but please if you see Be More Chill in New York, don't act like a dick.

[1:34:11] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:34:16] Jimi: Exit 82 did a wonderful job, but the audience was terrible.

[1:34:20] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:34:21] Jimi: A musical is not a singal long or a concert. You're there to see the actress perform the show, so don't sing along or hum. Especially during Michael in the Bathroom. Also, don't say lines along with the actors. They're the ones on stage, not you. You don't need to scream when you see your favorite actor or character. Yes, you can laugh during the funny parts and cheer a bit, but don't be so loud that you can't hear the actors say their names. Don't be on your phone or talking during the performance. And if you are going to record a bootleg, do it discreetly. Disclaimer, I disagree with that, don't do that. Um, the bottom line is be respectful. This is the actor's job, and they have to focus. They're giving you this performance, and you need to give them your respect. You don't want to be the rude person that will roll in tweets about during intermission.

[1:35:08] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:35:08] Jimi: I might sound aggressive, but this is just some basic theatre etiquette. I love Be More Chill, and the stories of the audience from eggs 82 just made me so sad because people were rude when they had a chance to see Be More Chill live. And I I'm just like mic drop, like I couldn't put it better myself.

[1:35:24] Tommy: Um I think this is why uh hipsters can't describe what quite why they want to be hipsters, but this is why the like culture of hipsterism exists. Because when something becomes popular, sometimes its popularity ruins it.

[1:35:43] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:35:44] Tommy: Uh so for example, like when I went to see Hamilton, I remember if I said this in the book of uh when I went to see Hamilton, um Hamilton in the UK. Uh they said immigrants, we get the job done. Um, and they had a 20 second ovation.

[1:36:02] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:36:02] Tommy: Um, and it's like sure. Right.

[1:36:07] Jimi: Uh, but you're only doing that because that happened on the Tonies.

[1:36:10] Tommy: Right.

[1:36:11] Jimi: Um, and because you know it's coming, and because yeah.

[1:36:14] Tommy: Yeah, and it's like we're we're getting into rocky horror territory here.

[1:36:18] Jimi: Right.

[1:36:19] Tommy: And it's very unnecessary because there is an I don't want to be the the big old grumpy adult here telling you how you should live your life.

[1:36:29] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:36:30] Tommy: Um but there is an element of competition when it comes to fandoms.

[1:36:34] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:36:35] Tommy: Um I'm a bigger fan than you.

[1:36:37] Jimi: Exactly.

[1:36:38] Tommy: I know this better.

[1:36:39] Jimi: Um it's a there is a beautiful community in the musical theater fandom. I ain't gonna like put that down. I think it's incredible, and I think it's very respectful amongst peers.

[1:36:43] Tommy: Yes.

[1:36:50] Jimi: But there is there is an element of competition, and it's always been there. I've been guilty of it.

[1:36:54] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:36:54] Jimi: I know this music. Do you know this musical?

[1:36:56] Tommy: Right.

[1:36:56] Jimi: Well, I Oh, oh, I thought you would know about that one. Oh, that's so interesting. And you want to show that off and you want to demonstrate it in what better place than at the show you adore so much that you know all the lines.

[1:37:06] Tommy: Exactly.

[1:37:07] Jimi: Um that's not what it's about.

[1:37:11] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:37:12] Jimi: It's about going and enjoying this moment that if you do like if you do genuinely love it, why wouldn't you watch it?

[1:37:18] Tommy: Right.

[1:37:18] Jimi: Why wouldn't you take the time to have that moment?

[1:37:22] Tommy: Well, it's the same thing as like asking people to put their phones down at concerts. Um it is an antithesis to like our core lizard blame lizard brain kind of motivations. Um that like I think takes conscious effort to combat.

[1:37:38] Tommy: Yep.

[1:37:39] Jimi: Um so it's it doesn't happen with all the shows, but it's been happening a lot. And it's been happening with the big ins, the big tumbler shows.

[1:37:49] Jimi: Well, um I mean, I think it's uh it's been happening with the shows. It's been it's the direction Broadway is going, regardless, whether you're Spongebob or Be More Chill, right?

[1:38:00] Tommy: Uh yeah, but also I think no one's gonna be at the Band's Visit being like, Yes Right, but I think the band's leader is the holdout. Um, you know. People when I saw Frozen in Denver, people showed up in costume.

[1:38:09] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:38:14] Tommy: I don't I don't mind that.

[1:38:16] Jimi: I don't mind that.

[1:38:17] Tommy: Right, but I don't mind being a big fan of something, but big ol' nerds. It's only a half step until you're also standing up and putting your hair down in the middle of the audience.

[1:38:26] Jimi: Yeah, that I mean that is the thing, and that's there is a line. There really, really is a line, and I feel like um and and as well because a show like Be More Chill has attracted a lot of new people to the theater.

[1:38:38] Tommy: Yes, incredible, right?

[1:38:39] Jimi: Absolutely incredible. But when you're in our house, you need to live by our rules.

[1:38:44] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:38:44] Jimi: Well, and I think it's that kind of thing. You you have to understand that the rules are there for your enjoyment of the piece.

[1:38:51] Tommy: Absolutely, absolutely, and everyone else's enjoyment of the piece.

[1:38:54] Jimi: Right. Please please just be respectful. That is what theatre should be.

[1:38:58] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:38:58] Jimi: Um, and it's the reason why PyloPone stops a show.

[1:39:02] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:39:03] Jimi: And it's the reason why X picks up a phone and throws it in Great Comet. Um tweets about these people bootleggers in the audience.

[1:39:11] Tommy: Like, yeah, these people are doing their jobs here.

[1:39:16] Jimi: Yeah. And have been doing their jobs and have worked so hard, so hard to do it. And they want you to have a really, really good time.

[1:39:24] Tommy: Right.

[1:39:26] Jimi: But they're not here to hear you ruin it for everyone else.

[1:39:31] Tommy: I do I agree with you. I think I am resistant to audience blaming because it feels like victim blaming.

[1:39:39] Jimi: Um that like you set up your audience for your show, whether you specifically do or the industry does, you know.

[1:39:46] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:39:47] Jimi: I I really struggle with like I've met theater teachers who are like, Oh, kids these days can't get off their phones, and so they can't get off their phones during their performance because they're all they're always snapping and tweeting and instant Facebook and whatever.

[1:40:00] Tommy: And like in my mind, I'm like, if your show was interesting, they'd put it away.

[1:40:05] Jimi: Yeah. Because they're not like taking photos of the show, they are bored, and what's in their pocket is more interesting.

[1:40:11] Tommy: Um and like not that you have to make your show a mile of minute interesting, but you do have to teach your audience that to like give the chance that the show might be more interesting than the Snapchat in their pocket.

[1:40:24] Jimi: Um so I f I want the way to teach the audiences that about Be More Chill, about these kind of fancy kind of shows.

[1:40:35] Tommy: That like, hey, it's wonderful that you love this show. The best way to showcase that is by doing these things.

[1:40:43] Jimi: And here's why. You know, if you're not singing along during the show, it will let the other audience members who love the show as much as you experience the show in its truest form.

[1:40:53] Tommy: Yeah, but like there's gotta be a way to do that.

[1:40:57] Jimi: That's not like a a 20-minute announcement at the beginning of the show.

[1:41:01] Tommy: I know, I don't I just don't know because the thing is is that will happen, but then you know, Annabelle will start saying the lane, right?

[1:41:11] Jimi: But then Jonathan is like, oh well, Annabelle's like I'm gonna join in because I actually I know better than her.

[1:41:17] Tommy: Yeah, and then you've caught fire again, right?

[1:41:20] Jimi: Um it's it's just really tricky. I don't I don't like the idea that that's what that's the kind of way we're going.

[1:41:29] Tommy: Yeah, um, that this is a thing that we should be doing in theaters, it's really not.

[1:41:33] Jimi: Right.

[1:41:34] Tommy: It's right, it's well I hate I hate it.

[1:41:36] Jimi: And it it feels it feels dangerous because there's a narrative where we're part of the problem, you know?

[1:41:41] Tommy: Where we are working, we're emboldening the fan base and bigging the fan base and the people listening to this podcast are the people who are gonna go to the show and sing along.

[1:41:52] Jimi: Definitely.

[1:41:53] Tommy: Um but I would never commend, you know.

[1:41:56] Jimi: It's that kind of thing. It's like if I caught my own children doing that, yeah, I would be disgraced.

[1:42:01] Tommy: Um I would because it's not something I advocate.

[1:42:05] Jimi: And that's why I'm very open about bootlegs.

[1:42:08] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:42:08] Jimi: Um actually side point. There's no bootleg of the original production of the show.

[1:42:15] Tommy: I think they're doing a very good job.

[1:42:17] Jimi: I think Broadway and the Broadway types have gotten very savvy uh about bootlegs and their potential and how to manage them.

[1:42:28] Tommy: Um, and like the what how much of a bootleg to let out and what portions of a bootleg to let out, and whether you let a bootleg of your whole show out or just a little bit.

[1:42:38] Jimi: I I see that change happening. I think they've finally grown wise to what is useful and what is not, or at least are trying some things.

[1:42:47] Tommy: Yeah, I guess.

[1:42:48] Jimi: But it's just for a show this popular like Heathers is out, right? We have Heathers, right?

[1:42:52] Tommy: We've got Great Comet.

[1:42:54] Jimi: But I think the only reasons those exist are because whoever the producers or the rights holders have decided letting those exist is better for the marketability for these shows than not letting them exist.

[1:43:05] Tommy: Whereas for Be More Chill, a show that currently has an off Broadway production in the works, minimizing the access to bootlegs creates.

[1:43:05] Jimi: But it's never existed. Because the this is the whole thing is Be More Chill technically only existed four months ago when it exploded.

[1:43:21] Tommy: Do you know what I mean?

[1:43:22] Jimi: Yeah. Before that, it wasn't like it was just rolling around the place because if it was, it would be everywhere.

[1:43:28] Tommy: Right.

[1:43:28] Jimi: I just find that interesting.

[1:43:30] Tommy: I I think they've just quashed it.

[1:43:32] Jimi: I think I don't think I think the the fan base is much more powerful than that.

[1:43:38] Tommy: Interesting.

[1:43:38] Jimi: A hundred percent.

[1:43:39] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:43:40] Jimi: Um anyway, that was just a that was just a brief side note.

[1:43:42] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:43:42] Jimi: Um I just think uh I I really loved reading this post because it it gave me a lot of hope, I guess.

[1:43:50] Tommy: Right.

[1:43:51] Jimi: Um and the thing is this wasn't this wasn't in a Broadway house, this was in uh amateur theatre, right?

[1:43:58] Tommy: Amateur production in New Jersey, yeah, and people were still doing this, and it's like if that if that was one of my productions that I put on just an amateur production, I'd be livid.

[1:44:08] Jimi: I'd be really, really angry because I'd be like, what the hell are you doing?

[1:44:11] Tommy: Yeah, you think that was okay.

[1:44:14] Jimi: Exactly. Um they you know the ushers in these theatres aren't gonna know how to handle that.

[1:44:21] Tommy: If they have ushers, like exact yeah, exactly.

[1:44:25] Jimi: Um it's it's not it's not fair.

[1:44:28] Tommy: I I mean, to be honest, I can't see that kind of thing, you know, cross-continental visits.

[1:44:35] Jimi: Uh I can't see that happening regularly.

[1:44:38] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:44:39] Jimi: Um I hope it doesn't, because again, it's terrifying.

[1:44:42] Tommy: Yeah, it's so off-putting.

[1:44:44] Jimi: It is, it is indeed.

[1:44:46] Tommy: Um I just think that line at the end of like um it just made me sad because people were rude when they had the chance to see Be Mortal Live.

[1:44:55] Jimi: That's the thing, is it's like whenever you go see whether it's off Broadway, on Broadway, amateur.

[1:45:01] Tommy: Right.

[1:45:01] Jimi: Um, you this is an opportunity that you've been given.

[1:45:05] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:45:06] Jimi: So use it, use it well. Don't ruin it for yourself.

[1:45:09] Tommy: And I know it's like telling audiences that like we know you like being here, you've expressed that by showing up.

[1:45:15] Jimi: You don't need to express that elsewhere, except in, you know, your laughs and your claps during a the appropriate moments that we've socially decided upon are appropriate for these things that support the art.

[1:45:28] Tommy: That's it, that support the art that's that are woven into the performance as a whole.

[1:45:34] Jimi: Right. You know?

[1:45:35] Tommy: Um you do nothing for Will Roland's performance when you scream out, I love you, Will Roland.

[1:45:41] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:45:41] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:45:42] Jimi: No.

[1:45:42] Tommy: You do nothing.

[1:45:43] Jimi: All you do is you just take everyone else out of it.

[1:45:45] Tommy: Ruin all of it.

[1:45:46] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:45:46] Tommy: It's almost like we need to start adapting the applause signs they do for live television.

[1:45:52] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:45:52] Tommy: Be like, now's okay to clap.

[1:45:54] Jimi: You may clap now.

[1:45:55] Tommy: Now's the time.

[1:45:56] Jimi: Oh my god, that would be so great.

[1:45:57] Tommy: Cause have you ever had that moment um if you're uh in a show or if you're directing a show, whatever, um, and either you've got like uh like an applause segue or you've got a no-applause segue where you really don't want applause to happen.

[1:46:10] Jimi: Right, and then it happens, you're like, oh no, you ruined it, you ruined it.

[1:46:14] Tommy: What always gets it for me, um, because high schoolers and especially middle schoolers love to hear themselves. Um when like a band is playing and one kid is like, yeah, we're gonna clap along to the beat of this song.

[1:46:28] Jimi: But they're clapping on the one and two or something, yeah, and it's not right, and then everyone else joins in, but like they're slightly at different tempos, and then they're at like two different tempos and they're different from where the performers are, and then the performers want to do a tempo change, but they don't know what to do because everyone's clapping.

[1:46:44] Tommy: And then they continue to clap for three more bars just in case.

[1:46:48] Jimi: Oh no, I'll stop clapping.

[1:46:49] Tommy: Oh, it stops, and then one kid's like, no, no, we can start clapping again.

[1:46:51] Jimi: And then everyone laughs at that kid.

[1:46:53] Tommy: Right.

[1:46:54] Jimi: And nobody's watching the show.

[1:46:55] Tommy: It's like this this damn performance is not about you, and it's selfish to do these things.

[1:47:01] Jimi: It it is.

[1:47:02] Tommy: It just is.

[1:47:03] Jimi: Um so big old grumpy gusses over here.

[1:47:06] Tommy: Right, look at us.

[1:47:07] Jimi: Don't don't mess with our theater.

[1:47:10] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:47:12] Jimi: Um, love this show.

[1:47:14] Tommy: Love it to bits.

[1:47:15] Jimi: Yes.

[1:47:16] Tommy: But remember that it is a show.

[1:47:18] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:47:19] Tommy: When the movie comes out, go for it.

[1:47:22] Jimi: Don't give a shit.

[1:47:24] Tommy: There are voices in my head.

[1:47:28] Jimi: So many voices in my head.

[1:47:33] Tommy: Then they can yell at hurt like hell, but I know I'll be fine.

[1:47:37] Jimi: Still have voices in my head.

[1:47:41] Tommy: There are voices in my head.

[1:47:46] Jimi: The loudest one is boy.

[1:47:49] Tommy: Jeremy.

[1:47:50] Jimi: Loudest one.

[1:47:55] Tommy: Loudy squatness boy.

[1:47:57] Jimi: Jeremy Let's go!

[1:48:23] Tommy: Come on, let's go!

[1:48:27] Jimi: Let's go!

[1:48:29] Tommy: Let's go!

[1:48:32] Jimi: Let's go!

[1:48:45] Tommy: That Jimmy was Be More Chill.

[1:48:48] Jimi: What a ride.

[1:48:49] Tommy: What a ride.

[1:48:50] Jimi: I'm so excited to see where the show goes from here.

[1:48:53] Tommy: I know.

[1:48:54] Jimi: It's very exciting.

[1:48:56] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:48:56] Jimi: And again, it's like I can't call it.

[1:48:58] Tommy: No, it it feels like it's paving new ground in what used to be a traditional musical theater, like I don't know, pipeline.

[1:49:07] Jimi: Yeah, totally.

[1:49:08] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:49:08] Jimi: It's just it's like, oh, okay.

[1:49:10] Tommy: It's the wild card, I feel it's almost like the whale.

[1:49:13] Jimi: It is the wild card.

[1:49:14] Tommy: Exactly.

[1:49:14] Jimi: Yeah, that's a great way to put it.

[1:49:16] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:49:16] Jimi: And hopefully it'll be a wild card starring Keanu Reeves.

[1:49:22] Tommy: He's like the only cast member they've not talked about yet.

[1:49:24] Jimi: I must be trying to get him.

[1:49:26] Tommy: It's probably gonna be him.

[1:49:28] Jimi: Oh my god.

[1:49:28] Tommy: Can you imagine?

[1:49:29] Jimi: I'm not even I'm not even kidding.

[1:49:31] Tommy: It would change my life.

[1:49:33] Jimi: Oh, that would be just wonderful.

[1:49:35] Tommy: It really would.

[1:49:37] Jimi: Um hey, I bet you I bet you Kenaroos didn't star in our next show.

[1:49:41] Tommy: Uh I mean who knows, but I do have a quiz question about it.

[1:49:44] Jimi: Cool.

[1:49:45] Tommy: That's an awful segue, I'm sorry.

[1:49:47] Jimi: It was a great segue.

[1:49:48] Tommy: Jimmy.

[1:49:50] Tommy: What show stars quote unquote actors named Effie, Dina, and Lorel, but has nothing to do with Dream Girls.

[1:50:03] Jimi: Lorel.

[1:50:05] Tommy: I can tell you what show it isn't.

[1:50:08] Jimi: What isn't it?

[1:50:09] Tommy: It's not Dream Girls.

[1:50:11] Jimi: It's not.

[1:50:12] Tommy: It's also not Be More Chill, so we've narrowed it down.

[1:50:15] Jimi: Yep.

[1:50:16] Tommy: It could be anything.

[1:50:18] Jimi: Um, if you want to get in touch with us and tell us what you think it is, you absolutely can, and please do.

[1:50:24] Tommy: Um come find me over on Twitter. I am at Asin Hendrix or YouTube at the same handle.

[1:50:29] Jimi: Can you imagine if we did the same show twice in a row?

[1:50:31] Tommy: I'm Musical Mash on Twitter and Musical Theater Mash on YouTube.

[1:50:35] Jimi: Or you can check out our show Twitter, Jim and Tomic, or our website jim and Tomic.com, which is a link to the Reddit discussion and a bunch of other things, including our Patreon where you can support us.

[1:50:43] Tommy: Because great.

[1:50:46] Jimi: Exactly.

[1:50:47] Tommy: Again, some great Reddit discussions.

[1:50:49] Jimi: I'm loving Reddit again.

[1:50:52] Tommy: And you know what's been nice?

[1:50:53] Jimi: What?

[1:50:54] Tommy: People talking to each other.

[1:50:55] Jimi: Good for them.

[1:50:56] Tommy: That's what we want.

[1:50:57] Jimi: We want to create a community.

[1:50:58] Tommy: We're trying desperately.

[1:51:01] Jimi: Always.

[1:51:01] Tommy: Always.

[1:51:02] Jimi: Um, and if you want to be a part of this community, then tell your friends all about us.

[1:51:06] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:51:07] Jimi: And we will see you next week.

[1:51:11] Tommy: Until then.

[1:51:13] Jimi: Goodbye.

[1:51:14] Tommy: Goodbye.

[1:51:28] Jimi: Did they have we had a toy called a Bumble Ball.

[1:51:32] Tommy: No, it must have been five, because my middle barrel was born.

[1:51:34] Jimi: Oh my god, is that the one that has like colored things sticking out of it?

[1:51:38] Tommy: It looks it yes, that's exactly what it is.

[1:51:40] Jimi: Oh my goodness.