This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Tommy: We're in the room. We're in? That's funny. The room where it happens? I hope so. Do you know what has fallen out of, I think, popular use? At least in my world. Hamilton. Hamilton references. Yeah. There's fewer of them now. There is fewer of them now. It's funny. But there's a lot of my friends who are like still just discovering it. That's wild. They're like, have you heard of this thing? That's wild. They're like, I just heard about this book yesterday. The Bible? Exactly. Yes, it's been really interesting. And like, because, yeah, seeing, you know, we like had the recent Spotify. Like Rewind or whatever. Rewind. It's coming back. We're really, we're bringing it back. People were like, the thing was still Hamilton. I was like, that's fascinating. That's wild. How can you still be listening to that? Yeah. Who knows? Mine was Hadestown, and I didn't realize I listened to it that much. Mine was Ghost Protector.

[1:00] Jimi: Oh, lucky you. Yeah, it was kind of nice. That's good. And then my second one was Come on Eileen, because there's a, I know, right? There's a, because I love the song. No, there's a Spotify playlist called Songs to Sing in the Shower. And at my school, when I need a like, we're entering the theater or leaving the theater generic playlist, Songs to Sing in the Shower is like totally clean, really popular songs that everyone knows. And the first one on the list is Come on Eileen. And so I hit play, turn on random, go to the next song. Yeah. Spotify thinks I just really like that song. Fair enough. I love it.

[1:43] Jimi: Welcome to Jim and Tomic's Musical Theater Happy Hour. I'm Jimi.

[1:46] Tommy: And I'm Tommy. And this is the only musical theater podcast with highballs and curtain calls. Here, we take apart your favorite shows, muddle them together with a shot of buffoonery, and pour you a refreshing glass of musical theater conversation. Tommy, what are you drinking today?

[2:06] Tommy: I call this mixed up, mashed up, not a pie milkshake.

[2:15] Jimi: Wow.

[2:16] Tommy: There's no milk in it. There's only three ingredients. I bet you can't guess what they are.

[2:20] Jimi: Gosh, I couldn't. I couldn't even know which. I can't think of anything.

[2:25] Tommy: If only there was some-

[2:26] Jimi: Three key things.

[2:27] Tommy: Three key things repeated often.

[2:29] Jimi: Like repeated words.

[2:30] Tommy: A thousand times.

[2:31] Jimi: Oh, like, oh.

[2:33] Tommy: Raisins.

[2:34] Jimi: Uh-huh. That's it. It's raisins, raisins, and raisins, actually.

[2:37] Tommy: Yes. This week we're doing a raisin in the sun.

[2:40] Jimi: And I'm drinking a milkshake filled with raisins.

[2:43] Tommy: Oh, that would not be nice.

[2:45] Jimi: Oh, man. I got a quiz question. You ready?

[2:48] Tommy: Hit me.

[2:49] Jimi: The original production of this musical tickles all of your senses the moment you enter the lobby. We're not sure if the show had an official smell designer, but let's be honest, it probably did.

[2:59] Tommy: It probably did, and that show could only be-

[3:03] Jimi: A raisin in the sun.

[3:04] Tommy: A raisin in the sun.

[3:06] Jimi: Waitress, here we go!

[3:08] Tommy: It's a waitress.

[4:00] ♪ Musical number ♪

[4:05] Jimi: Yeah! It's closing soon.

[4:07] Tommy: It is, how sad.

[4:09] Jimi: It's very sad. So hey, Waitress, music and lyrics by the wonderful Sara Bareilles.

[4:15] Tommy: Yes.

[4:16] Jimi: And a book by Jesse Nielsen.

[4:18] Tommy: It's based on a film by Adrian Shelley.

[4:20] Jimi: Yes, indeed.

[4:21] Tommy: Which I actually watched in college, I was reminded of, by my friend the other day.

[4:25] Jimi: Oh, fantastic.

[4:27] Tommy: Why didn't you remember?

[4:29] Jimi: That's a great question.

[4:31] Tommy: Maybe I fell asleep during it.

[4:33] Jimi: Great, good.

[4:34] Tommy: A very memorable film.

[4:35] Jimi: No, it is.

[4:36] Tommy: We're not discussing things yet.

[4:38] Jimi: It premiered on the Broadway in 2016.

[4:42] Tommy: And we're very sad that it will be closing in less than a month.

[4:46] Jimi: January the 5th, 2020.

[4:48] Tommy: The West End production, which also opened February of this year, 2019, is also closing this coming July, 2020.

[4:54] Jimi: Yeah.

[4:55] Tommy: They're launching a big old tour.

[4:57] Jimi: I'm excited about it.

[4:58] Tommy: Across the country it goes.

[5:00] Jimi: And I really hope they bring the smell with them.

[5:02] Tommy: I do.

[5:05] Jimi: Should we say what that is?

[5:07] Tommy: Oh, we haven't said.

[5:09] Jimi: It smells like pies in the lobby.

[5:11] Tommy: It smells like pies.

[5:12] Jimi: It's brilliant.

[5:13] Tommy: It's so good.

[5:14] Jimi: More shows should smell.

[5:15] Tommy: Well.

[5:16] Jimi: That's a fun question. If you were walking into...

[5:19] Tommy: Sweeney Todd.

[5:20] Jimi: Sweeney Todd.

[5:21] Tommy: Well, that's fine.

[5:22] Jimi: That's obvious.

[5:23] Tommy: Just make pies.

[5:24] Jimi: More pies.

[5:25] Tommy: Oh, yeah, it's the same smell.

[5:26] Jimi: Yeah, but a little grosser.

[5:27] Tommy: Just recycle it.

[5:28] Jimi: What about if you're walking into the woods?

[5:30] Tommy: There's a good foresty smell.

[5:33] Jimi: Evergreen.

[5:34] Tommy: Like a mulch.

[5:35] Jimi: They could just hang a bunch of those evergreen car fresheners just all around the lobby.

[5:40] Tommy: Okay.

[5:41] Jimi: What about company?

[5:43] Tommy: Booze.

[5:44] Jimi: Smells like booze.

[5:45] Tommy: Brilliant.

[5:46] Jimi: I'm loving this.

[5:47] Tommy: Let's make it happen.

[5:50] Jimi: Tweet at us.

[5:51] Tommy: Tweet at us what your musical smells like.

[5:54] Jimi: Yeah, exactly.

[5:56] Tommy: That's fun.

[5:57] Jimi: So, yes. Waitress Tommy. Do you want to tell us about it?

[6:02] Tommy: Okay, here we go. Yeah. Waitress follows the story of Jenna, who is a waitress and pie baker in a tiny nondescript town in the American South. I don't think they ever actually said it anywhere too specific. She is stuck in a loveless, abusive marriage with her husband Earl, who's terrible, and accidentally and unexpectedly gets pregnant. She doesn't really want to be pregnant, but still decides she's keeping the baby. It chronicles her journey through this and also her love affair with her OB-GYN. She will also follow the story of her two co-workers, Becky and Dawn, and their love lives as well. And eventually, Jenna has the chance to escape her small town through perhaps winning a pie contest, pie baking contest. But complications ensue. She's not allowed to leave, but has the baby, divorces her deadbeat husband, cuts off the affair with the OB-GYN, and inherits the pie shop.

[7:18] Jimi: Hooray!

[7:19] Tommy: And names it after her daughter.

[7:20] Jimi: And names it after her daughter, which is really cute.

[7:22] Tommy: Isn't that cute?

[7:23] Jimi: There's a lot of discussion of mothership throughout this.

[7:26] Tommy: Yes.

[7:27] Jimi: Jenna's dead mom appears a whole bunch throughout this thing and gave her her passion for pie baking. There's a lot of mirrored life going on between what we learn about her mom's life and her own life.

[7:42] Tommy: And we explore, I would say, non-traditional romance is a pretty big theme in this show.

[7:53] Jimi: 100%.

[7:54] Tommy: And that's something I'm really excited to talk about.

[7:56] Jimi: Yeah.

[7:57] Tommy: Very much so.

[7:58] Jimi: But before we talk about that, let's talk about where it all began.

[8:03] Tommy: Get on my shoulders, Jimi. Let's go.

[8:05] Jimi: Okay. Whee!

[8:38] ♪ Musical number ♪

[9:03] Tommy: Why are you on your shoulders?

[9:04] Jimi: I don't know. Like a shuddery as opposed to a coal carry.

[9:10] Tommy: Are those national Scottish dishes?

[9:14] Jimi: Yeah.

[9:15] Tommy: A shuddery, what do you call it?

[9:18] Jimi: A piggyback ride.

[9:19] Tommy: Don't call it a shuddery, I guess.

[9:20] Jimi: No, what do you call it if I'm sitting literally on your shoulders?

[9:24] Tommy: Yeah, that would be a piggyback ride.

[9:26] Jimi: No, that's me hanging on.

[9:28] Tommy: Oh.

[9:29] Jimi: What's like, my legs are on your shoulders.

[9:32] Tommy: I think we just say sit on my shoulders.

[9:35] Jimi: You should start saying shuddery.

[9:37] Tommy: How do you spell that?

[9:38] Jimi: Well, it's spelled shouldery.

[9:40] Tommy: Oh, got it.

[9:41] Jimi: Okay.

[9:42] Tommy: Of the Scottish persuasion.

[9:43] Jimi: Sure, sure.

[9:44] Tommy: Shudder.

[9:45] Jimi: I've got shudder.

[9:46] Tommy: Some people are going to understand what that is.

[9:49] Jimi: Not me.

[9:50] Tommy: There's like four of them.

[9:51] Jimi: If you understand that, give us a tweet. Anyway, so this is a like mildly unconventional show.

[10:01] Tommy: Yeah.

[10:02] Jimi: Sara Bareilles wrote it.

[10:03] Tommy: I mean.

[10:04] Jimi: Sara Bareilles.

[10:05] Tommy: There's not... I was racking my brain and I can't think of pre-2016 any stalwart examples of musicals written by pop stars who were famous for being pop stars first.

[10:15] Jimi: That aren't jukebox musicals.

[10:22] Tommy: That aren't jukebox musicals, yeah.

[10:24] Jimi: That are original music for the show.

[10:27] Tommy: Is Tim Minchin a pop star?

[10:30] Jimi: Fair question.

[10:31] Tommy: I know he's a comedian.

[10:33] Jimi: That would be a good comparison.

[10:35] Tommy: And a musical comedian.

[10:36] Jimi: Yeah.

[10:37] Tommy: But where like, or even just where the fame of the music writer is not from writing musical theater songs.

[10:45] Jimi: Yeah.

[10:46] Tommy: And hey, if it is, I mean, it always is with us.

[10:49] Jimi: Right.

[10:50] Tommy: We're going to get 5,000 replies.

[10:52] Jimi: But if it is, it ain't popular.

[10:54] Tommy: I mean, it's not the done thing.

[10:56] Jimi: Yeah.

[10:57] Tommy: Not to Sara Bareilles's extent.

[10:59] Jimi: Like, certainly independently famous before the show happened.

[11:03] Tommy: Completely and hugely successful and not in a theater adjacent way.

[11:08] Jimi: Right.

[11:09] Tommy: I mean, she's just strides on her own in the pop charts.

[11:12] Jimi: Yeah.

[11:13] Tommy: And yeah, she was approached by, I think she was approached by Diane Paulus, the director, who had been asked to make, to turn the film into a musical.

[11:23] Jimi: Yeah.

[11:24] Tommy: And I think Diane Paulus approached Sara Bareilles and kind of the rest was history.

[11:31] Jimi: Yeah.

[11:32] Tommy: But I think it's, yeah, sorry about what we can say.

[11:36] Jimi: Have you listened to a lot of Sara Bareilles's music?

[11:39] Tommy: I've listened to a fair amount.

[11:41] Jimi: Yeah.

[11:42] Tommy: Yeah.

[11:43] Jimi: I really, I really enjoy her as a recording artist.

[11:45] Tommy: I enjoy it. I think it is interesting because I would say even, well, Tim, there's not great comparisons and like Tim Minchin doesn't have a sound because he's kind of a comedy writer.

[11:54] Jimi: Right.

[11:55] Tommy: Exactly.

[11:56] Jimi: And I think that his content comes through, but a lot of the show, you know, you can, you can see Bareilles's thumbprint on all of it.

[12:02] Tommy: Oh, Duncan Sheik.

[12:04] Jimi: Ooh.

[12:05] Tommy: Yeah.

[12:06] Jimi: There it is.

[12:07] Tommy: Yeah.

[12:08] Jimi: Yeah.

[12:09] Tommy: Duncan Sheik too.

[12:10] Jimi: It was just when you said that, I was like, ah, because you can hear his sound.

[12:13] Tommy: Right.

[12:14] Jimi: Yeah.

[12:15] Tommy: Which is such an interesting thing. And like Sondheim talks about this, about like, you know, chimera-like changing your appearance of your songs to fit the theme of the show or the content or the setting of the show. Whereas I do feel like Waitress is, the show is very much informed the other way around by Sara Bareilles's sound.

[12:36] Jimi: It would be a different show if she wrote different kinds of music.

[12:39] Tommy: Yeah.

[12:40] Jimi: Completely.

[12:41] Tommy: But I think it's quite nice because, and she's talked about this a bit herself, that she approached it kind of like a playground and saw the opportunity that writing a musical offers you in that you don't need to have this coherent sound like an album does. You don't need, it doesn't need to have that kind of commercial value.

[13:01] Jimi: Sure.

[13:02] Tommy: Where it has to have a sound like this album has to sound like this. With a show you can actually experiment with musical styles and actually it's encouraged to do that. You want to create a really diverse palette.

[13:13] Jimi: That's cool. I never would have thought about it that way, but it does, that must be a huge pressure as a pop artist. Like every song must be independently marketable and like, you know, no one's chomping at the bit to cover You're Never Ever Ever Getting Rid of Me.

[13:32] Tommy: Right, right.

[13:33] Jimi: Exactly.

[13:34] Tommy: Right.

[13:35] Jimi: And it's a great song, but it is not independently marketable.

[13:40] Tommy: Well, TikTok differs, but that's weird.

[13:43] Jimi: It's that song hugely popular on TikTok.

[13:46] Tommy: Yes, exactly.

[13:47] Jimi: Super weird.

[13:48] Tommy: Ignoring that world.

[13:50] Jimi: Sure.

[13:51] Tommy: But like, yeah, it's interesting because, so obviously she went on quite shortly after to basically make an album of the music from Waitress and it works as an album.

[14:12] Jimi: Yeah.

[14:13] Tommy: It's like a weird backwards concept album exploration.

[14:16] Jimi: Exactly.

[14:17] Tommy: It's like you did the concert album second or the concept album second.

[14:22] Jimi: Yeah.

[14:23] Tommy: But it's one of those things you can, it's obviously not a rehash of the cast recording.

[14:28] Jimi: Right.

[14:29] Tommy: And I think it's a really interesting experiment because you can hear the differences that a pop album.

[14:36] Jimi: I would have compared to a cast album, which isn't something that we get to really enjoy, to get to really appreciate that much. And I find, I've been in this discussion quite a lot before, like, well, what makes a musical theatre song a musical theatre song compared to a pop song? And this is the thing, because we are, it is only in maybe the recent two or three decades where we're seeing pop and musical theatre diverge as forms. You know, Oklahoma was pop. That was it. Like, that's what you got on your record. Like, all the Tin Pan Alley songs are, you know, Cole Porter and stuff. Like, that's what people played on their pianos and what people sang to each other, and that was pop music. And then only since, you know, Bye Bye Birdie and Rock and Roll came in, and we've seen pop being a different thing than musical theatre. And now they have become such, like, that Venn diagram has totally, like, cells separated. And so now when it comes back together, they're different little bubbles.

[15:41] Tommy: Yeah. And then now we're almost seeing things like, well, kind of like Hamilton in a weird way. Obviously, they went on to make the mixtape, which tried to blur the lines a little bit more. Things like Six, where it's very much pop music. It's, and it's, like, intentionally informed by a very, like, pop pastiche.

[16:02] Jimi: Yeah. So they're not, it's one of those things, like, they're not going to make it on the charts anymore.

[16:08] Tommy: Right.

[16:09] Jimi: Just because of the way, you know, music works. I mean, obviously Hamilton and Billboard, yes, absolutely great. But, like, yeah, I find, I don't know, I just find it's an interesting thing, especially even if you are, see if you're a songwriter.

[16:24] Tommy: Yeah.

[16:24] Jimi: Even from that perspective, it's really interesting to know, well, how can I take this song that I have that works as a pop song.

[16:32] Tommy: Right.

[16:33] Jimi: And make it musical theatre without changing anything.

[16:36] Tommy: Yeah, and giving it a character. And I will say, I think, like, I enjoy Waitress. It's not, it's not top 10 for me. I think it works 80% in this show.

[16:48] Jimi: I think there are portions of music in here that just sound like pop songs. And I grow disinterested or a little bored, like the musical theatre part of my brain does. Because we're repeating a chorus again unnecessarily, or without some added something, or, you know, we do a key change here, not because it is character motivated or story motivated, but because that's how the song needs to go.

[17:17] Tommy: Okay.

[17:18] Jimi: Which, you know, and not often, and not to a huge detriment to the show, and not in a way that I think, like, my mom going to see the show would notice at all.

[17:28] Tommy: Yeah.

[17:29] Jimi: But it does, it does strike me a bit. I think it's an incredibly, I really love the score. I really, really love the score. It's definitely my favourite part about the show.

[17:40] Tommy: Sure.

[17:42] Jimi: I agree, it's not, it's not my top 10, but it's so listenable and it is really enjoyable.

[17:46] Tommy: That's fair. Every song is listenable and like, and exciting and interesting.

[17:51] Jimi: And, you know, I would, I would hasten to say unique.

[17:56] Tommy: I think a lot, because it is Sara Bareilles' sound. There is something, but there is, and you know what, it's really interesting you say it, because like, I've, I've been trying to pinpoint this thing, so I can make a really interesting and cohesive argument about it.

[18:10] Jimi: Yeah.

[18:11] Tommy: But I don't know what it is, but it does feel different. I can't hear anyone else writing this.

[18:17] Jimi: Yeah.

[18:17] Tommy: I was thinking, because she uses a lot of really delicious close harmony, because Sara Bareilles is an incredible musician.

[18:25] Jimi: Yes.

[18:26] Tommy: Right. And you can hear that in all of just her songs.

[18:29] Jimi: Yeah.

[18:31] Tommy: But it's, I don't know, I'm like, Pacek and Paul kind of have a similar-ish vibe, again, with the close harmony and like using harmony.

[18:41] Jimi: But like, there's always a background chorus going like,

[18:47] Tommy: Yeah, but it's done well.

[18:48] Jimi: It's done really well. You know, I mean, it enhances it and it feels, you know, for example, like in something like, When He Needs Me.

[18:55] Tommy: Yeah.

[18:57] Jimi: The backing chorus in that is really delicious and it's really, like, it's complex.

[19:03] Tommy: Yeah.

[19:04] Jimi: It isn't story serving.

[19:06] Tommy: Right.

[19:07] Jimi: Right.

[19:07] Tommy: Yeah.

[19:08] Jimi: But it enhances the song.

[19:10] Tommy: Yeah.

[19:10] Jimi: You know, I mean, and you can, if you're going at it from an artistic perspective, you can say that, well, as Dawn starts dreaming more and more, this backing chorus comes in and then turns it into this big romantic grand dream thing.

[19:22] Tommy: But I think that's the thing that is like, I do not mean this as a critique, but because Sara Bareilles comes at this from a non-musical standpoint, it is, I think, if you're trained in the School of Musical Theatre, your initial motivation is to make the chorus a story existence.

[19:41] Jimi: And the chorus in the show is not, for the most part, a story existence. When they're backing up in a number, they're nothing. They're nothing. They're not a metaphor for a dream.

[19:55] Tommy: They're like a service to make a bowl float.

[19:58] Jimi: Or like, with some exceptions, with there's, you know, some pregnant lady moments where there's a bunch of them in, like the contraction ballet and some other places. But for the most part, the chorus is like background singers in a pop sense.

[20:15] Tommy: Which wouldn't happen with a raised in musical theatre style.

[20:22] Jimi: Yeah, I think I probably agree.

[20:25] Tommy: I'm just trying to think, though, does it do it any sort of disservice?

[20:29] Jimi: I think.

[20:30] Tommy: Like, are we missing something because she's not utilizing the chorus?

[20:34] Jimi: I don't know. To me, it creates a different kind of feeling. Like, I think that's one of the highest points I mean, that this show would feel and look different were it not for Sara Bareilles' music.

[20:48] Tommy: Like, it wouldn't be as dreamlike and lyrical in its staging because they need these background singers to facilitate the music that we've written.

[20:59] Jimi: And so then you need a reason for actual humans to be on stage in these moments. And so, therefore, you build two pie carts that can move around in dramatic ways because these people need something to do, right?

[21:11] Tommy: Like, that's a decision tree that happened at some point.

[21:15] Jimi: All because of a music choice. And I have no doubt that that was the direction of the thing. They weren't like, well, we need pie carts and then wrote the music in the other direction to facilitate having the people to move on.

[21:27] Tommy: Right.

[21:28] Jimi: Which definitely happens in musical theatre.

[21:30] Tommy: Absolutely.

[21:30] Jimi: Like, a hundred percent. We need all these things to move. So we got to write a, you know, like, when the, in the original cast of Company, when the elevator needs to descend to let everyone come down at the very beginning, like, we laaa! And it just keeps going and going and going.

[21:44] Tommy: Let's make it the longest note in musical theatre history.

[21:46] Jimi: Absolutely. That's where the music followed the set. But I think very much in this one, like, the music came first.

[21:53] Tommy: And actually, the music leads a lot.

[21:57] Jimi: Yes. You know what I mean?

[21:58] Tommy: And kind of interestingly, as usually these kind of things, like the whole creative process isn't deeply talked about.

[22:05] Jimi: Sure.

[22:06] Tommy: But from interviews and things like that, and things that I can glean, it really seems like it's, it was Diane and Sarah talking a lot about what to do.

[22:16] Jimi: Yeah.

[22:17] Tommy: Because even the book writer, Jessie Nelson?

[22:21] Jimi: Yes.

[22:21] Tommy: Jessie Nelson. And she, she doesn't almost operate as a traditional book writer, because kind of a lot of the song spotting was done already, you know what I mean?

[22:35] Jimi: Already, like, from the conversations between Diane and Sarah. Again, like, we don't, we can't peer behind the curtain. We don't know what's happening there.

[22:41] Tommy: But I think a lot of, and then, you know, we don't know producer influence coming in to be like, well, actually, no, you can't have that. You can't have that. We don't know these things.

[22:53] Jimi: We'll wait for the memoir.

[22:56] Tommy: But it's, it's really interesting.

[22:58] Jimi: It is very much like the music is at the forefront of this.

[23:01] Tommy: And the music is really the driver for the story.

[23:05] Jimi: And it's that kind of, kind of bread and butter musical theatre of scene to set up a song, scene to set up a song.

[23:15] Tommy: I will say it is a good, it is a good thing in my world that, that was the result of what was in essence a stunt authorship casting, right?

[23:27] Jimi: Like, they, they didn't pick Sarah Bareilles particularly because she was the perfect person to tell the story of Waitress.

[23:35] Tommy: Like, maybe they said that when they were getting her to sign the contract.

[23:38] Jimi: But Sarah Bareilles' name is on the marquee. And that's important, right?

[23:42] Tommy: Yeah, that is really, really important.

[23:44] Jimi: And this could have totally gone, you know, the, the SpongeBob route, right? Where everyone writes their own songs and we kind of slap them all together.

[23:53] Tommy: Or, you know, she writes songs that don't feel like appropriate stage songs.

[23:58] Jimi: And so now we have to figure out a way to make, to shoehorn them into this plot.

[24:04] Tommy: Yeah.

[24:05] Jimi: And like, that didn't happen, which, which is cool. And I think, you know, speaks to Sarah Bareilles' canny about the whole thing.

[24:11] Tommy: I think so.

[24:12] Jimi: And like, she, she's quite an out-and-out musical theatre fan. Like, she talks quite openly about her relationship with musical theatre.

[24:21] Tommy: And it isn't just the kind of retconning.

[24:24] Jimi: Right, like, oh, I've always loved theatre.

[24:27] Tommy: Yeah.

[24:28] Jimi: Like, she has a lot of stories of hers tied into it.

[24:31] Tommy: Yeah.

[24:31] Jimi: I think she even, like, I think she might have auditioned for the Mickey Mouse Club or something.

[24:35] Tommy: She might have been in it at some point.

[24:38] Jimi: Like, it's, it has definitely been a part of her.

[24:41] Tommy: Yeah.

[24:41] Jimi: Growing up. One of the most iconic things that have happened in Sarah Bareilles' life is her performing Part of Your World.

[24:45] Tommy: Because, do you know this story?

[24:50] Jimi: I don't know this story.

[24:50] Tommy: This is great. So she was at a gig and the power went out.

[24:56] Jimi: Okay.

[24:57] Tommy: So to fill in time, she just spontaneously sang Part of Your World.

[25:03] Jimi: And it was like such a smash and became obviously, because it was on YouTube, you know.

[25:08] Tommy: Sure, yeah.

[25:09] Jimi: She brought it just into her set.

[25:12] Tommy: Yeah.

[25:13] Jimi: Like, she is synonymous with Part of Your World, which I think is brilliant.

[25:18] Tommy: Yeah.

[25:19] Jimi: But yeah, just, it's, you're right, it is stunt in that sense.

[25:25] Tommy: And not that there's,

[25:26] Jimi: It's good that it's not, there's no thought behind it, you know what I mean?

[25:30] Tommy: I will say this is, because sometimes I think we poo-poo stunt casting.

[25:36] Jimi: This is stunt casting done well.

[25:40] Tommy: Yeah, I'm like, that's the thing is it works.

[25:42] Jimi: It totally works.

[25:43] Tommy: It totally fits everything.

[25:45] Jimi: Right, to the point where it is stunt, but is also someone with talent doing it.

[25:50] Tommy: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[25:52] Jimi: I think, I think there's probably a lot of artists out there who are writing, who probably could do a really good job at this.

[26:01] Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

[26:03] Jimi: And I don't know, I'd be kind of interested to see a few.

[26:10] Tommy: It's one of those things, because it's not as lucrative.

[26:14] Jimi: If you're like a massive Grammy winning pop star, you're not going to be like, time for me to write a musical because it's so much work.

[26:21] Tommy: You know what I mean?

[26:22] Jimi: Like, it's not, well, and it's a shame because it'd be just really interesting.

[26:26] Tommy: Yeah, but I mean, like, you know, take the cautionary tale of Spider-Man with Bono and the Edge.

[26:32] Jimi: There are ways for it to turn south for sure.

[26:36] Tommy: You're right.

[26:37] Jimi: And like, you can see like Bono and the Edge were just as passionate about Spider-Man as Sara Bareilles was about Waitress.

[26:42] Tommy: Like, they were, but they weren't as passionate about musical theatre.

[26:47] Jimi: Fair.

[26:47] Tommy: I wonder if that's the difference.

[26:48] Jimi: To my knowledge, but I'm 90% sure.

[26:51] Tommy: Yeah, that seems like a fair assertion to make.

[26:54] Jimi: Because I think that probably is a thing. Because if you're coming at it from the perspective of, I don't really get musical theatre.

[27:02] Tommy: I don't understand why people love this.

[27:04] Jimi: Yeah.

[27:04] Tommy: Your heart and soul isn't going to be poured into it.

[27:07] Jimi: Right. Whereas if you grew up with it.

[27:09] Tommy: Yeah.

[27:09] Jimi: And you are a nerd.

[27:11] Tommy: Yeah.

[27:12] Jimi: Of course, you're going to treat it with respect.

[27:14] Tommy: Yeah, there is an understanding, you know, like a musical theatre boot camp, you kind of need to go through it.

[27:18] Jimi: Like even, you know, I'd have to, I haven't done this research, but like Elton John, let's talk about Lion King, say.

[27:25] Tommy: Yeah, there you go. There's your pop star, by the way.

[27:27] Jimi: Yeah, that is another one, I guess.

[27:29] Tommy: Yeah.

[27:29] Jimi: And like, it's kind of back, backformed because he, the movie happened first.

[27:34] Tommy: But Billy Elliot.

[27:35] Jimi: Yeah, fair.

[27:36] Tommy: You know what I mean?

[27:37] Jimi: Like that.

[27:38] Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[27:39] Jimi: It's a fantastic musical.

[27:41] Tommy: Yeah.

[27:42] Jimi: And the music works.

[27:46] Tommy: And I mean, I don't know, Elton John being who he is.

[27:49] Jimi: Right.

[27:49] Tommy: I imagine he's watched a musical.

[27:51] Jimi: I imagine he's a musical theatre fan.

[27:54] Tommy: He kind of looks like one.

[27:56] Jimi: Right, exactly.

[27:58] Tommy: I think, is that a huge part of Rocketman?

[28:00] Jimi: I've not seen it yet.

[28:01] Tommy: But, you know, the time he goes to see Cats and is like, ah, yeah, I get it.

[28:06] Jimi: Although he would have been well into his career by that point.

[28:09] Tommy: It's like a cut scene from Rocketman.

[28:11] Jimi: Yeah, exactly.

[28:13] Tommy: I think that's actually the crucial point of the plot.

[28:15] Jimi: It's a, it's a cross promotional venture with the Cats Twitter account.

[28:19] Tommy: Right.

[28:22] Jimi: Good.

[28:24] Tommy: Yeah.

[28:24] Jimi: So I think, I think, I think it totally works.

[28:28] Tommy: Yeah.

[28:28] Jimi: I'm more than happy for it.

[28:30] Tommy: I agree.

[28:30] Jimi: It does make it feel unique and is the sort of thing, you know, then, then this stuff starts happening more and we start doing it poorly.

[28:36] Tommy: Like, that's always one of my fears with this sort of stuff.

[28:40] Jimi: Always.

[28:43] Tommy: It's like, oh, well, we can only cast pop stars now to do our music.

[28:48] Jimi: Um, which like, I don't think Waitress had the wild success that would absolutely spur producers to do that.

[28:56] Tommy: Have done that.

[28:57] Jimi: Interesting.

[28:58] Tommy: And I think, as you said, because musical theatre isn't as lucrative, it's not as big of a carrot for.

[29:02] Jimi: And it's so much work.

[29:05] Tommy: Yeah, it's so much work.

[29:06] Jimi: Regardless of anything, you're still writing.

[29:08] Tommy: Yeah.

[29:08] Jimi: I don't know, like 20 odd songs.

[29:11] Tommy: And if you want to do it.

[29:12] Jimi: You're going to spend at least a month in New York coming to see the show all the time.

[29:17] Tommy: It's taxing in a bunch of ways and probably isn't going to make you that much money compared to the other stuff you do if you're that kind of famous.

[29:24] Jimi: Yeah. Is there anyone out of interest? Is there anyone, like an artist that you would say, I really want them to write a musical?

[29:31] Tommy: Lizzo.

[29:33] Jimi: Oh, interesting. What do you think that would take the shape of?

[29:38] Tommy: I don't know. That's why I want to see it. I just want to see what would happen. I mean, following a certain trend, one of mine would easily be Gaga.

[29:46] Jimi: Yeah, sure. I'm surprised she hasn't done something, you know. I don't think it would be a musical. Well, I don't know, in her, like, post-Tony Bennett world. Maybe, like a traditional out-and-out MTV.

[30:01] Tommy: I mean, she's halfway there already, I feel. I mean, the narratives in some of her stuff. I think one of the difficulties, like if we're going to explore this hypothetical, is if you stun-cast Gaga as your writer for musical theatre, you want it to be a Lady Gaga concert with, you know, bizarre weird angles and an embryo egg. But I think she would much rather, like, assuming she'd sign up and is a fan of musical theatre, want to go a more traditional musical theatre route, which would disappoint the fan base you're trying to bring in to begin with.

[30:36] Jimi: Yeah. You know what I mean?

[30:38] Tommy: But then again, how long is it going to be, I'm looking at my watch, before we get the adaptation of A Star Is Born?

[30:46] Jimi: Fair. Yeah. You know what I mean?

[30:48] Tommy: Yeah.

[30:48] Jimi: Because she's already got a few lined up already. I don't know.

[30:51] Tommy: I mean, the film's happened so many times, really, it would have happened.

[30:54] Jimi: Right.

[30:55] Tommy: But that would be interesting.

[30:58] Jimi: Yeah. I mean, we're, you know, musical theatre, I think, I feel like I say this every year, and it just keeps happening. Musical theatre keeps just ending up in a weirder and weirder place.

[31:07] Tommy: Like, we're, I think we pride ourselves in some predictions about, like, specific things about the future of musical theatre. But, like, if you asked me two years ago, if you described to me six, like, four years ago, and said, like, and this is going to be very popular on Broadway in four years, I would be like, oh, what is that?

[31:26] Jimi: Exactly.

[31:27] Tommy: You know, like, every time it's just another left turn.

[31:33] Jimi: Yeah. Who wants next?

[31:35] Tommy: God, I'm scared to even say.

[31:38] Jimi: I know. Who can say? The Britney Spears musical, everyone. It's the Britney Spears musical.

[31:42] Tommy: It's probably going to happen.

[31:44] Jimi: Stop it. You put it out.

[31:44] Tommy: What do you mean it's probably going to happen? It's in production.

[31:47] Jimi: I could have, I wouldn't.

[31:49] Tommy: You're welcome, darling.

[31:50] Jimi: I wish I didn't know. I want to, I gotta Google something.

[31:54] Tommy: How do I delete a tweet from my mind?

[31:57] Jimi: Feed it to the voidfish.

[31:58] Tommy: There we go.

[31:59] Jimi: Feed it to the voidfish.

[32:26] Tommy: Well, Sarah Bareilles' side.

[32:41] Jimi: This is a team to talk about.

[32:44] Tommy: Yeah, this is a big old girl power team. It's good.

[32:48] Jimi: It really is. So who have we got? We've got Sarah Bareilles. We've talked about her.

[32:53] Tommy: Um, directed by Diane Paulus. We've got Jenna Nielsen.

[32:58] Jimi: We've got Lauren Letaro, who's the choreographer.

[33:02] Tommy: Nadia. Oh, that's a really hard last name to say.

[33:05] Jimi: DeGilinardo. I'm going to go with that.

[33:10] Tommy: Um, who was the musical director.

[33:13] Jimi: Which is great. We never talk about musical directors.

[33:16] Tommy: Um, just a full on all-female creative team.

[33:23] Jimi: Yeah, which is like, this is pioneering on Broadway right now, which is a shame.

[33:26] Tommy: First time that's ever happened.

[33:27] Jimi: Yeah.

[33:28] Tommy: Was with Waitress in 2016.

[33:31] Jimi: Yeah, technically, it was the second time it's ever happened.

[33:36] Tommy: In 1978, the musical Runaways had book, music, lyrics, choreography, and direction all by one gal, whose name was Elizabeth Swados.

[33:46] Jimi: Oh, cool.

[33:47] Tommy: I don't know if that entirely counts.

[33:50] Jimi: Yeah.

[33:51] Tommy: But was that a male producer?

[33:53] Jimi: Ooh, I don't know enough about the hit Broadway musical Runaways.

[34:01] Tommy: Well, that's just shocking.

[34:04] Jimi: Because, yeah, Fran Weissler is the producer.

[34:08] Tommy: Barry's also there, but we talk about Fran. She's the one on the billboard.

[34:13] Jimi: I mean, it's great. It's absolutely incredible.

[34:16] Tommy: And it comes through in the content.

[34:21] Jimi: I mean, I don't think, one, I don't even know if the show would have happened if there was a more male-heavy production team to begin with.

[34:31] Tommy: Yeah.

[34:32] Jimi: But even if it had, it would feel kind of gross.

[34:34] Tommy: I don't think it would be handled in the same way that it is in the show.

[34:39] Jimi: Exactly.

[34:41] Tommy: It just feels very authentic.

[34:43] Jimi: Yeah, yeah.

[34:44] Tommy: And I'm saying that as a cis man.

[34:47] Jimi: Right, like, we're out of our lane here, but it does.

[34:49] Tommy: Yeah, that's it. It feels authentically not something I could relate to.

[34:52] Jimi: Right.

[34:54] Tommy: I would say it feels authentically something that I wouldn't write well.

[34:58] Jimi: That I wouldn't write well, or create well, or conceive well.

[35:03] Tommy: Because it's not my experience and not my world.

[35:06] Jimi: Exactly.

[35:07] Tommy: That makes it all the better that, like, you know, this is one of the great things about theatre is that we now get an insight into this world that isn't ours of the female experience in these particular moments, in a way that not only shows us the actuality of it, but through the joy of musical theatre lets us feel it too.

[35:25] Jimi: Which is why, like, it's why this was a new story, and why people think it's important, because it shows.

[35:31] Tommy: Exactly. That's the thing, is that, yeah, I like that it's intrinsic to the story, because would it have had much press if it was an all-female team writing something that had nothing to do with women?

[35:47] Jimi: Sure. I mean, Fun Home was also getting the same sort of press.

[35:53] Tommy: Similar thing.

[35:53] Jimi: Similar thing.

[35:54] Tommy: Again, female perspective.

[35:56] Jimi: Female perspective, you know.

[35:57] Tommy: Yeah.

[35:59] Jimi: I don't know, I just find it's an interesting one, because would we be talking about it nearly as much, or would it be as much of a feature of the show if it wasn't a show kind of about women and the experiences of women?

[36:17] Tommy: I mean, we've talked about this in, like, talking about different diverse groups when the authorship is incongruent with the groups represented.

[36:23] Jimi: Like Ragtime, or Once on this Island, or a couple other places.

[36:28] Tommy: And I think, if I recall correctly, our conclusion was kind of, that's fine, but not the best.

[36:42] Jimi: Yeah, it's better than not having the story told at all.

[36:45] Tommy: Better than not representation.

[36:47] Jimi: But in theory, those sorts of authors, if men wrote Waitress, they don't even know what they don't know, right?

[36:58] Tommy: And so, finding their blind spots, doing this sort of thing with care and intent, is easier, and has been done wrong plenty of times in the past.

[37:09] Jimi: And so, the only way to get diverse theatre is to have diverse creators.

[37:15] Tommy: Yeah, 100%.

[37:17] Jimi: So, let's kind of talk a little bit about how it's intrinsic in the story, and what are some of the kind of big features that get pulled out.

[37:27] Tommy: We've talked about it already, but one of the things that I think resonated with me the most, because it was something that I physically could relate to, is Jenna's relationship with her mother, and how that's infused throughout the entire show.

[37:44] Jimi: And how Jenna's mother, although never actually present, kind of influences so much of her decision making, and you get it from all sides.

[37:56] Tommy: It's her history, it's her past, it's her present.

[38:02] Jimi: It's really well done.

[38:04] Tommy: Yeah, and that's one of the joys of the story writing to begin with, how well that's incorporated, because Jenna is going through this experience of the child that's about to be in her life, and is reminiscing about her mother and her history there, but also is so deeply rooted in her mother, because of her joy of baking pies, which very explicitly she got from her mother, and then story-wise explicitly got from her mother, because her mother did it to help, as a parenting technique, to help them evade their, I think he's drunk or abusive or something, like Jenna's father.

[38:40] Jimi: And then we see that come full circle.

[38:43] Tommy: Absolutely.

[38:45] Jimi: Yeah, because that's the thing, if the pregnancy storyline wasn't there, I feel like her relationship with her mother would still be a huge part of the story, which is really lovely.

[38:54] Tommy: I think that's a really nice, it shows the depth of Jenna's character, that it's not a means to an end.

[39:01] Jimi: It's not like, oh, well, let's talk about your mother, because you're going to be a mother, la la la la. It's like, no, this is something that has shaped this character. This is her main influence.

[39:10] Tommy: Yeah, and I think one of the things that the show does really, really well are those moments, like physically, how the mother exists and appears and is in these moments.

[39:22] Jimi: And they never, she's a ghost or a specter or a vision. She never has any lines. They never point at her and be like, that one, that one's the mother, get it? But you totally do.

[39:31] Tommy: And every time she shows up, you're like, oh, okay, this moment makes more sense. I understand why this is here.

[39:38] Jimi: It's so simple and effective.

[39:41] Tommy: It is very brilliant.

[39:43] Jimi: Yeah, I really, really love it.

[39:45] Tommy: I also really enjoy, and I don't know, this is like, this feels out of my lane.

[39:49] Jimi: And so I think I might stumble talking around some of this, but a nuanced female perspective of like non-traditional romance relationships, let's say.

[40:02] Tommy: Oh my God, it is my favorite thing about the show.

[40:04] Jimi: Yeah, like.

[40:06] Tommy: Hands down.

[40:07] Jimi: And that's cool and not something, I don't have a good comparison for, I can't think of another piece of media where that's done, much less done well, but like done.

[40:20] Tommy: Do you mean a musical theater?

[40:21] Jimi: Yeah, but like.

[40:22] Tommy: Yeah.

[40:24] Jimi: Or outside of musical theater.

[40:26] Tommy: And that's, I have less of a less of a compendium there, but.

[40:30] Jimi: Yeah, I mean, I just think like for me, I'm quite non-traditional when it comes to love.

[40:38] Tommy: And that's, as I get older, that's something that I am discovering and understanding.

[40:47] Jimi: So it's really, I find it really nice when shows talk about it in quite a mature way.

[40:55] Tommy: So kind of how it's probably say how it's represented in Waitress.

[41:00] Jimi: Basically two of the characters are shown to be infidelities.

[41:07] Tommy: How do you say it?

[41:08] Jimi: How do you say it?

[41:10] Tommy: I am, you're not an infidel.

[41:12] Jimi: I know, and it's bad.

[41:14] Tommy: It's bad because all of the language we have around this is negative and mean, right?

[41:19] Jimi: Right, exactly.

[41:20] Tommy: You're cheating on them. You're unfaithful to them.

[41:25] Jimi: And so both Jenna has an affair with her OB-GYN.

[41:33] Tommy: They're both married.

[41:34] Jimi: And then is it?

[41:36] Tommy: Becky.

[41:36] Jimi: Becky has a fling with the cook at the diner who is married.

[41:45] Tommy: And so of course that has to be a secret too.

[41:47] Jimi: And like in a lot of shows, in a lot of places where you deal with an affair, like the affair being a secret is very one-dimensional.

[42:00] Tommy: Like it's bad or it's sexy and dangerous or it's mean or it's unthoughtful.

[42:07] Jimi: But in both of these cases, it is nuanced and multi-dimensional, like looked at something that is both good and bad for the characters involved, which is cool and nuanced.

[42:24] Tommy: And because the show's very female forward in a way that I think a lot of other representations are not, it gives it a nice, that just feels nicer.

[42:35] Jimi: Um, it's just more real.

[42:37] Tommy: It's just more realistic.

[42:38] Jimi: That's the thing.

[42:39] Tommy: You know, it's when, and I can't remember what show we talked about this in.

[42:45] Jimi: Who's talking about infidelity and how, oh, I think it may have been last five years, right?

[42:50] Tommy: Sure.

[42:51] Jimi: If you want Jimmy's strong views on infidelity and the complexities surrounding that, go listen to that episode because we talk about it a lot.

[43:00] Tommy: And it's just a good episode.

[43:02] Jimi: But yeah, there's so much more to it than just you're a bad person.

[43:07] Tommy: You cheated.

[43:08] Jimi: Right, right.

[43:10] Tommy: Right.

[43:10] Jimi: Yeah.

[43:11] Tommy: There is depth in like relationships of the most complicated things that we can have.

[43:17] Jimi: Yeah.

[43:17] Tommy: Do you know what I mean?

[43:18] Jimi: So we don't, we don't understand them.

[43:20] Tommy: There's no rhyme or reason.

[43:22] Jimi: There is literally no pattern to it.

[43:23] Tommy: Right.

[43:25] Jimi: And so, of course, infidelity will occur.

[43:28] Tommy: Yeah.

[43:28] Jimi: And of course, sometimes it isn't the worst thing.

[43:31] Tommy: And sometimes it's absolutely necessary.

[43:33] Jimi: Yeah.

[43:33] Tommy: Do you know what I mean?

[43:34] Jimi: And like the tact with which Waitress does this, like, you know, Earl, Jenna's husband, is a dick, is terrible.

[43:43] Tommy: But you're not like sitting there in your seat.

[44:18] Jimi: Stupid or not seeing this thing. This stuff is complex.

[44:25] Tommy: There was a statistic that I read somewhere that said, apparently, in domestically abusive relationships, they, on average, will leave their partner seven times before finishing.

[44:41] Jimi: Like, yeah, that's, yeah, it just, yeah, it's, there's so much more to this than just, I cheated.

[44:47] Tommy: Right, exactly. Or like, you know, in another kind of representation of this, like, she packs her bags and leaves, like, and that's right. Yeah. And we're there. And that's, yeah, you don't get to see and part of it is, I think that is a larger part of the plot of this show. But the struggle, the, like, the ups and downs she has with Earl, you know, and then the ups and downs she has with her doctor, you know, Potamater, and like, how they conclude their cheating relationship in the doctor's office at the end, and how it's like, this wasn't great, but it wasn't bad either.

[45:30] Jimi: Exactly. I think, again, that's another thing that I really love about this show is that it's not that we cheated because I was in a bad relationship, and everyone wants us to be together. And so we get together, right? It's not that it's, this isn't actually what I want or need. I've evaluated that now. Yeah, it was good. And it was helpful at the time. But to be honest, I want to just be here with me and my daughter.

[46:01] Tommy: Right. I love that. Yeah. Because it could be so easy for them to just tie it up in this lovely ball of joy. Yeah. Where it's like, I've left my wife. Oh my God, we can be together now. Right. Or like, you know, the doctor's wife who works at the hospital comes in and like catches them in filigrante delecto. Yep. Or whatever. And like, that becomes a bit and it's just like, no, no, this happened. And yeah, like you, you might be not great, but not terrible person, Dr. Jim, and not confess it to your wife. And like, that could be okay, or could not be okay. Then it's just, it's all, it's all just these flaws.

[46:40] Jimi: Yeah, that we all have. Yeah. Coming to the fore, because it's what's really nice is you see his wife. Yeah. And she's delightful. She's delightful and so nice. And it's not, you know what I mean? She's not the horrible person that you would expect her to be because he's having an affair.

[46:55] Tommy: Right. Exactly. But they also don't play him up as being a terrible person for cheating on his nice wife.

[47:01] Jimi: Exactly. Like that's, that's nice. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's really, it's really nuanced. It's really tasteful. And I just think it's the kind of story that I like to see being told because it's so real. It's, it's just, yeah. Even if we're talking about maybe the, the less real feeling, uh, romance story in this show, um, with, uh, uh, Don and what's his face? Ogie. Ogie. Um, and like him being kind of stalker-ish and like really into her, but then them connecting over their love of revolutionary war reenactments. Um, and that like, keep coming back and like, yes, it's a joke, but also happens. There are so many relationships about like, Oh, you're, you, you're weird like me. Right. We're weird together.

[48:01] Tommy: Absolutely. A lot of very successful relationships are formed on that exact thing. Yeah. Um, one little thing. Yeah. I mean, it's like, Oh, we share this. Nobody else shares this. So you have to be the one. Right. Exactly. We are so passionate about this thing. Um, that we're going to be passionate about it together. Um, which is also like, that's a non-traditional relationship. And I do love that it does seem to have hit the sweet spot where like they get plenty of laughs about it, but it is not treated as something like it is still nice. It is still, it's not degraded. Um, it's not looked down upon. Um, they're not like the nerds.

[48:45] Jimi: Yeah. No, no character I think makes fun of them for these moments. They all show up to their American revolution themed wedding.

[48:49] Tommy: Absolutely. Yeah. Which is great as, as a nerd. I'm like, we like this. Let your, let your, let your nerddom shine.

[49:04] Jimi: Absolutely. Thank you, Shrek. Um, one of the other things I think is really nice, we kind of talked about it earlier, um, is the idea of all of these characters being flawed. Yes. Like every single one there is, we deal with a lot of broad strokes in it just because of the nature of the beast. Yeah. That's musical theatre. We don't have a lot of time to fall in love. We don't have a lot of time to show that Earl's not great.

[49:26] Tommy: Right. Um, but Jenna, Dawn, Becky, Ogie, everyone. Yeah. Um, what's the name of the, uh, the owner of the cafe? Uh, Cal. Cal. That's it. Um, who is a character I really, really like and he's not in any way deep or featured, but, um, really, I like him. Uh, all of these characters are, they just feel extremely human because their flaws match up to their nicetudes. I don't know what the word would be.

[50:06] Jimi: Yeah. Even, even Earl, who is on the more flawed end of the spectrum, like you, he's not someone to emulate. He, and like is a, is a villain, but not a mustache twirling one.

[50:14] Tommy: Um, no, not at all. Not at all. And, um, actually there's, there's a good interview with, um, Jesse Nelson, the, the book writer, um, where she talks about, she didn't want to paint this broad strokes. The only way she created them, she wanted to show the root of someone who is domestically abusive. Like it doesn't just come because I like to beat up people. Right. It comes from somewhere. Do you know what I mean? And, um, it, what that does is it makes the whole situation around the domestic violence much more real because it's, it is that thing. It's like humans can do this to other humans. It's not like evil people do this to good people.

[51:06] Jimi: Right. Yeah. It does. And it does, I don't know if this is weird or not, but something about that realistic-ness of it makes me lean into it more as opposed to, I think there are depictions, like much more broad strokes depictions of things like, uh, domestic abuse or some of these more like heavy hitting topics where, you know, I, I like sit back in my chair. I'm like, Oh God, Oh, Oh, terrible. Oh God. Right. And you feel that knot in your chest and like, this is a bad thing. And I, and it exists in the world and I don't like that it exists in the world. Whereas the way it is portrayed in here, you move a little closer to it and you're like, huh. Okay. So this, you know, it's humanizes it more. And I don't mean that it, it, it makes domestic violence more acceptable. It doesn't lessen it.

[51:57] Tommy: Exactly. No, it's not excusing it in any way.

[51:59] Jimi: Right. But it does shine a brighter light on it. So you can have a fuller idea of how these, how this might happen. Yeah. And kind of how, I think it's like how easily it can happen. Yes. How natural, naturally it can happen. It isn't, do you know what I mean? It isn't to do with villains because villains very, very rarely exist. Right. You know what I mean? It is just a completely, it's a, it's a human thing. Humans, some humans are capable of it. And the fact that it can make us say both those things at the same time, absolutely not excusing any kind of domestic violence, but also saying these are humans behind these things is like, that is a huge success and it's hard to do.

[52:46] Tommy: Definitely. And what's good about Waitress and what's good about what they've written is that it puts Jesse, Jesse, I'm saying Jesse Mueller, Jenna, sorry. Jenna at the forefront. Yes. It's her perspective on it. It's her story. And that's what stops it from becoming, well, let's look at a, you know, balanced side of domestic violence. You know what I mean? And this is, you go.

[53:12] Jimi: Well, I was just gonna say, this is one of the things, the biggest issues I have with Carousel because it ain't balanced. All of her, right. It is not balanced. It's really, really not. And it's not, you're not seeing it from a female perspective. It's just a given what the guy does because he's like that.

[53:29] Tommy: Yeah. Well, and also there's, uh, I feel like in some of these, you, you have that, uh, uh, watching a horror movie reaction where, you know, the character went down the deep, dark, scary hall where the man with the knife's at the end of it. And you're like, no, no, don't open that door. And never once do you see Jenna make a decision where you're like, that was the wrong decision. Um, like maybe there's somewhere like, uh, I'm not quite sure, but you never see her like, do, do that horror movie trope. Um, which I think happens in some of these stories sometimes. Like, and then she made that mistake by staying with him, right? She had the chance to get out now and didn't because she still thinks he like she, there isn't that kind of mental character mistake that the art, like with the journey, the audience goes on, um, which just makes it more about the, you know, how we're all flawed as humans and kind of have to navigate through that.

[54:28] Jimi: Totally. Um, one of the other things, again, I think this does that we certainly don't see musical theater, um, that I've really loved is the fact that at the end of the show, Jen is a single mother who is hugely successful and celebrated. I think that's nifty as hell.

[54:50] Tommy: It would have been so easy to deflate. Like that ending scene, Lulu's a kid and alive, and she owns the diner and a man we haven't met yet who's hot walks in and kisses her on the lips, right? Right. Because she deserves the success, including the man.

[55:06] Jimi: Um, exactly. Like that's it is it's like, it just doesn't come into it and it wouldn't, it genuinely wouldn't even feel right. I don't think if that's what happened.

[55:16] Tommy: It's so demoralizing. Like we would, we'd be bitching and moaning about it right now.

[55:20] Jimi: Right. A hundred percent. Exactly. That's, that's what's so refreshing because we don't, we don't have to argue about that. That's great. Um, yeah, it's, it's really, it's really nice. Like single motherdom, especially in this day and age is like massive. There are hordes of single mothers out there. Um, and they're all badasses because they have this huge job taking care of a child, but also having to take care of themselves.

[55:37] Tommy: Yeah. And I think what's nice about Waitress is they're like in a single motherdom, not as a demonic or like thing to pity, but also not as like, and look at what this superhero was able to accomplish. Right. Not like overcoming all ops. Like, no, it's, it's barely, you barely notice it. That's the thing. Yeah. It's not like I'm by myself, but it's okay. Right. Um, I think that was in the cutting room floor. That's all. It's beautiful. Yeah. Um, and thank God she cut it out because they don't need it. Um, yeah, I don't know. I just, I, again, I love it. I love seeing these stories, these narrative threads that we've never seen before that we absolutely should be seeing. You know, it's, it always excites me. Um, and it's little things like this that make me love Waitress even more. Cause I'm like, yes, brilliant. Keep it on a stage.

[56:47] Jimi: And you know, it's like, it's musical theater. My mom will go see this. Right. Like people, like it's a piece of pop culture pop in the popular way. Um, and like bringing that story to this, you know, totally digestible, like not off putting way. Um, that's not like at the end, like grabbing the audience's head and being like, look at it, look at it. But it's just like letting it exist. It's not, it's not at all. It's just like, yeah. Enjoy this story. Enjoy the story. There's some things you might learn from it and we are going to get, we're going to give you a happy ending cause it's musical theater. Um, and still knowing that we're all kind of flawed, but that's okay.

[57:27] Tommy: Exactly. Exactly. It's fab. Yeah. It's what it is. Very nice about it.

[57:34] Jimi: But hey, but is it some people don't agree?

[58:04] Tommy: Oh,

[58:12] ♪ Musical number: "I Love You" — performed by the cast of Waitress ♪

[58:24] Jimi: So this is really interesting. And I'm going to throw my hands up here. And I've probably said it 4000 times already. There is a question around this that just because it's female led, does that make it feminist? Sure. In the political sense? Sure. That we know feminism? Yeah. And it's, it's an interesting talking about basically, this question was thrown up to me by an article, I think from Vox. Okay. It'll be in the show notes. Anyway, give it a read. Because it, it was it just kind of made me go like, huh, interesting. Other side of the coin that I hadn't really considered. So basically, like, roughly this article says that everywhere is plastered as, you know, this great feminist story told by women.

That's what you hear. And this article was basically arguing the fact that well, actually, it's, it's not a feminist story. It's not this kind of feminist fairy tale that is portrayed as because of x, y, and z. So what is x, y, and z? They focus a lot on the film, and how the kind of feminism that exists in the film doesn't necessarily find its way onto the stage. And one of the things in particular, with that is a to do with the domestic abuse. So obviously, we've talked about how it's featured in the show already. But in the film, yes, you see Errol actively attacking Jenna. That's something you never physically see. Sure. Super, super strongly implied, if not explicitly implied, but he never hits her on stage.

It gets very close. Yeah. And certainly it happened like we are, there's no doubt that has happened in this relationship, but 100%. So this article was saying that like, you're not showing the picture as it is, it's it was trying to argue that, you know, like you say, people leave seven times they leave a relationship. It's not just like, I am striking out on my own, and I'm gonna do it. Hooray, hooray. They were trying to argue that that isn't the reality. And therefore, that doesn't make it feminist, because you're not telling the story as it is.

[1:01:15] Tommy: Interesting. It is interesting, because I, I mean, I don't know. And this, I don't have an answer for this. And I'm really interested to hear what people think about it. I mean, like, I think taking a step back, I'm curious about like, I can tell you why it happened. Like, this is a fun and bubbly musical. And that's the difference. If you're going to add in the music, it's going to be harder to come back from the hit into another sugar butter flower, or like, you're never ever, ever getting rid of me, because it is heightened in the bubbly direction. I think there's a window that this world has to exist in. And that shoves it off the other end from domestic violence. I would, I would wager, like, that would be the conversation I would imagine happening in the writer's room.

I also, and then I think there's another discussion about it's one, it's one thing to see simulated domestic violence on film. It's another thing to see simulated domestic violence in person. Absolutely.

[1:02:19] Jimi: You know, this is the Little Shop of Horrors difference. Yeah, like, at the end of the musical, they all die. And at the end of the movie, they kill the plant. Because it feels, you know, these, these medias feel different. And you have to take that into account when you adapt it. I also, I think this is still developing in my mind, but I think I disagree with the fact that the exclusion or with the assertion that the exclusion of, like, what appears to be like the visual domestic violence in the show removes a feminist edge from this. I think that's grasping at straws. Yeah, because domestic violence still exists in this show, clearly. You don't need to see it to know it. And like, this is that I hate making this these associations, because I know there are different worlds.

But my experience is the gay experience. In relation to a lot of these things. I don't need to see gay bashing to know that it happened. I don't need to watch it to feel it. Right. And then if you take some of the connotations that an audience might have with just, you know, the triggering nature of witnessing violence on stage, right, then I think you're doing a disservice to the rest of the points of your story. And I think it is short sighted to say that the only thing or to assert that the only thing or one of the only things that is going to make this show feminist is domestic violence. I think there are plenty of other things that make this show feminist. And I just feel like this is like kind of where this article falls down, because we've just we've already talked about a lot of them.

Yeah. Well, I mean, I was the ending, I feel is completely feminist. I was curious when you put this in the show notes, because I do think because I only just the concept of like things that don't make this show feminist. I think I don't know if it's the right argument, but I think there is an argument to be made about like, these are still women living in a man's world in a bunch of contexts. You know, there are some plenty of moments where the man's making the decision. You know, the stalker is stalker ish nature of you're never ever, ever getting rid of me. Yeah, isn't great, but it is, is real, right? Like not including these things in the musical, not including those things in the musical, I think would be a greater disservice than not including physical simulated domestic abuse.

And you know, I struggle with discussions around feminism, because I know there's a lot of really passionate people on a lot of different levels about this. Absolutely. And it's out of my lane in a bunch of ways. And like, I also always wonder, if some if like we have done in this podcast, some of the feminist nod is toned up in this because of the all female writing team. And like, I have a fear that like, when an all female writing team writes a musical about baseball or something, right, something that is something non traditionally feminist adjacent, or just like, yeah, a musical, that's just a story. That's about something else. Are we still going to be having the conversation about how great it is that like, do we need to keep drawing an article being like, this whole female team isn't feminist, right?

Exactly. Because they wrote this musical about boxing. Right? Like, that's stupid, too. Yeah. If, if men can write musicals about women, like, right, what the hell? I just, I don't know, I just feel like the article is just a little bit disappointing. Because, um, again, like I read, I read another article that talks about Jesse Nelson, and her prep for writing it. Sure. And apparently, she actually worked with some psychologists, and for an organization, an organization called Savi, S-A-V-I. Okay. Which is the Mount Sinai sexual assault and violence intervention program. Okay. Yeah. Experts in the field. Yeah. You know, I mean, she's liaising and talking with these people. Right. And what she got from that was the idea of making Earl a human as opposed to this, yeah, broad strokes.

Yeah. You know, I think and making sure that that was really well handled. And I think that's the thing is like, this article is basically being like, they didn't do enough, you know, I mean, right? Well, and also, I think it is, you know, I'm, I am absolutely solidified in my opinion now. And I think it's shitty. Yeah, like, it is so short sighted and narrow minded to assume that the only kind of domestic abuse is physical.

[1:07:30] Tommy: Or that like, the only kind that matters, like, there's plenty of and we see it in the show, Earl is like, very mentally, I mean, that song that they share is, it's, it is, it's really alarming. Yeah, like, that's domestic abuse, right? Yeah. You know, that's the like, when you, I don't know if they do this in the UK, but one of the default primary care doctor questions they ask everyone, and it's good, there's a big push right now to make sure doctors are asking men this too. But they ask among like, do you wear a helmet? Do you floss? You know, do you smoke? They also ask, do you ever feel unsafe at home? Right. And the the prying question is like, are you in some kind of domestic abuse situation?

But the question is, do you ever feel unsafe at home? Not, has anyone ever hit you? Right? Yeah, exactly. And like, it's important. That's an important thing to talk about. Yeah, I think I, I grow impatient with woke infighting sometimes. Like, yeah, we're on the same side of this, you know, like, can we celebrate what it is and not, this sounds hypocritical coming from us, but like, not nitpick the bits and pieces that don't live up to how we want this thing to be represented, right? Like, don't, you know, there's, there's a forest around you as well. Like, stop looking for that one tree you can't find. Right, exactly. One of the things that the article does talk about, though, it's not just all about domestic abuse. They do talk about Dawn's relationship with Ogi.

[1:09:14] Jimi: Yeah, I think that's a fair, fairer for investigation. I agree. That is the bit that I don't quite like. Yeah, I think it happens, right? It does. It does. No, it's interesting. So apparently in the film, Dawn is a lot more aware of Ogi's behavior. Sure. And this, this was in the article, not from the film. It says, and while Dawn Stalker is portrayed as ultimately a good man, she directly acknowledges that he wore her down and stalked her into a relationship, admitting that she's only with him because she's settling. Interesting. It's a lot darker. It is a lot darker. The subject matter in Waitress, but yeah, it's the kind of laughing at the jokey Christopher Fitzgerald being amazing, whilst also being like, I love you means you're never, I'm not going to leave you.

I, I, you have no choice in the matter. I wish, like when we staged our production of Waitress, I think that number needs Becky and Jenna getting in the way more. Like, no, no, like you're going, you're going, here's your coat. Get it. Stop. No, no, no, no. Leave. Stop. Stop it. She doesn't want to talk. Like, no, no, no, no, no. Stop it. Like you're stalking her. You need to leave. And like, you can still find a way where like, he, you know, Charlie Brown's puts his hands in his pants, like, mope, mope, mope. Um, you know, I love American revolutionary enactments and like the, uh, how to succeed in business bell goes off and everyone's like, ding. And then they fall in love. But like, to give a little more women empowerment in that moment to be like, I told you, I did not want to see you and you are here. And that violates the request I made.

[1:11:16] Tommy: Exactly. Like, I think you could still make that work. Um, and having so be a little, it makes Okie really one dimensional. Um, perhaps one of the most one dimensional characters in the show. Um, Oh yeah. Like his, his flaw is a joke. Um, which sucks because that's the thing is it's not really a joke, right? Like it, like the actual, the thing that is his flaw is not funny in real life. I'm like, I got a stalker, right? Like, not funny. Um, so that would be where, you know, my, that's fair. Now, like amazing that Jen and Elson did the research into domestic violence, maybe think about the nuances and I don't doubt there are stalkers like this in situations that have happened like this, but the other thing to the Vox articles intended point, I don't think that makes this not a feminist show.

Like, yeah, that's, that's a guy problem. Like it is. And like, it's, I don't think it's not, it's not the most feminist thing to happen. Sure. And I'm looking at it from Dawn's perspective of just kind of going along with it. Right. Um, it would have been nice to kind of have that idea because of like Dawn's flaws are more like I put up barriers and I have mild OCD, you know what I mean? Like that's kind of her flaws. Yeah. But they're just quite, they're not as hard hitting. Yeah. Hers, hers are also infidelity, a joke. Um, yeah, it doesn't make her any less real, but they're, they're the B plot comic characters. Um, that's it. And I, what I, what I.

[1:13:00] Jimi: Be quite interested to know, and Diane Pollis, get on the phone to us, we'd love to chat, is, was that ever in the show? Did she ever have a conversation where she's like, well, listen, it's better than nothing? You know what I mean? Was that ever, where the choice is firmly given to Dawn, where she's like, no, I'm aware of what I'm doing. I'm still doing it. I want to, you know what I mean? Like, which I think is more feminist. Give her a moment at, you know, at the wedding scene or something to be like, yeah, this started as a stalking relationship. That's not great. Right. Like, you could do that.

[1:13:38] Tommy: I don't think so. I mean, yes, it wouldn't make it as murky and fun and-

[1:13:41] Jimi: Right. Well, I wonder if that then is an audience testing thing, right? Because of how deep and dark and sad some of the other parts go, like, yeah, you kind of just need them to jump up on a table for a second. Like, yeah, we just, we kind of need this clown of a character so that this isn't like a total depression fest.

[1:14:00] Tommy: Absolutely. One thing I do want to, before we move on, is to talk about Michael Rydell.

[1:14:10] Jimi: Yeah. What did he say?

[1:14:12] Tommy: So this, oh, what didn't he say? So this Vox article, to give it the one thing that I'm definitely in agreement with, they call this article by Michael Rydell, and again, I'll put in a show notes, the world's most patronizing New York Post article. And I don't think they're wrong.

[1:14:30] Jimi: That's a high bar to set too, because-

[1:14:32] Tommy: Right, right. So-

[1:14:36] Jimi: And this is Michael Rydell from the New York Post, just so we're-

[1:14:40] Tommy: Yes, putting attributing.

[1:14:41] Jimi: So we say it, yes.

[1:14:43] Tommy: Absolutely. So the producers and the investors think Waitress should be a feel-good show for women who buy the majority of tickets on Broadway. They want it to be uplifting the way the beautiful The Carole King musical and The Color Purple are. But Paulus, sources say, is trying to give it a harder political edge. Can we just say, we just literally just talked about The Color Purple.

[1:15:06] Jimi: Right.

[1:15:07] Tommy: So I don't know-

[1:15:08] Jimi: Yeah, also, you don't need to use the word political to mean what you're using.

[1:15:12] Tommy: Right, exactly. The husband comes off as so brutal, the audience recoils, sources say. So this was, sorry, just to give you a bit of context as well, this is before Waitress opened on Broadway.

[1:15:25] Jimi: Diane's a feminist and vertical, quote, oh yeah, you say this really well, quote, Diane's a feminist and kind of political, says a source. She doesn't want to do a peppy, happy musical, unquote. Paulus, who directed the family-friendly Finding Neverland, wasn't available for comment Thursday.

[1:15:42] Tommy: I know the Weisslers well and have great respect for their producing abilities. They have, after all, made Chicago into one of the longest-running and most lucrative shows in Broadway history. They know the audience, and if they think there's too much emphasis on domestic violence in Waitress, Paulus and her band of feminists should heed their advice. Waitress, which has some terrific songs, by the way, has a real shot at being a commercial winner this year. Let's leave domestic violence to Tennessee Williams and David Mamet.

[1:16:12] Jimi: Oh, I have so many things to say.

[1:16:14] Tommy: Right.

[1:16:15] Jimi: Right.

[1:16:15] Tommy: First of which, among, like, God, you'd think he's never seen any of the shows he's talked about before. The point he's trying to make is, like, the producers did such a great job with Chicago. Don't let them put domestic violence in this show. Literally, the inciting incident in Chicago is Roxy shooting, like, it's predicated on violence, bad, bad violence.

[1:16:44] Jimi: Yeah, exactly.

[1:16:45] Tommy: Shoot someone on stage in the first number. Shoot him.

[1:16:51] Jimi: But literally what he's saying is, you don't want feminism. That doesn't sell tickets.

[1:16:56] Tommy: Right.

[1:16:57] Jimi: That's literally what he's saying.

[1:16:58] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:16:59] Jimi: But it's, let's leave domestic violence to Tennessee Williams and David Mamet.

[1:17:03] Tommy: Oh, and he means not in their plays, but just, like, they beat their wives. I don't know if that's true.

[1:17:09] Jimi: I mean, I wish I could trust him to have that level of irony.

[1:17:13] Tommy: Yeah, I don't think he does.

[1:17:15] Jimi: I think he just means these people are better writers.

[1:17:18] Tommy: Yeah, the men.

[1:17:18] Jimi: Sorry.

[1:17:19] Tommy: Sorry that men are better writers because we're men.

[1:17:22] Jimi: Exactly. No, let's leave it to people who do the research and speak to people first-hand about domestic violence. I don't think Tennessee Williams spoke to any domestic violence. He probably didn't exist when he was writing.

[1:17:34] Tommy: I know we have a trend of putting traditional print media on blast more and more in the recent couple of podcasts, but, you know, they deserve it. Like, Jesus Christ.

[1:17:47] Jimi: Yep.

[1:17:47] Tommy: And so he, this article came out before the show happened.

[1:17:52] Jimi: Yeah, yeah.

[1:17:52] Tommy: So this is just like a rumor funded pre-review think piece that he felt.

[1:17:58] Jimi: Yeah, this is, this is, it's got an all-female creative team. It's going to be feminist, but let me just give you some inside info about how it's going to land. Like for goodness sake, like it's really, uh, misguided.

[1:18:16] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:18:17] Jimi: And I mean, obviously he hadn't seen it, so he hadn't seen some of its parts.

[1:18:21] Tommy: Yeah. All the more, all the more reason not to cast dispersions and make assumptions about this.

[1:18:29] Jimi: Right.

[1:18:29] Tommy: And you couldn't, you couldn't reach the authors for comment, quote unquote, or they didn't want to talk to you because he kind of seemed like a dick.

[1:18:35] Jimi: Um, like, yeah.

[1:18:37] Tommy: Don't, don't like.

[1:18:40] Jimi: And that thing as well, I know the Weissler's well, is if there's like this.

[1:18:44] Tommy: Like this gives you some cred, like.

[1:18:46] Jimi: Right. Exactly. Like, oh yeah, it's actually, it's Michael Rydell and Fran Weissler who are writing it and Diane Paulus welcome. You're, you're allowed to be in the room. Come on. It's not nice.

[1:18:57] Tommy: Another thing I super, super dislike is, uh, uh, artist character assassination. Um, like don't,

[1:19:04] Jimi: don't say this is bad because of the, the people are who they are.

[1:19:12] Tommy: Right. People aren't their art and we got to get rid of the idea that they are.

[1:19:18] Jimi: Um, exactly.

[1:19:18] Tommy: It's a, it's a stupid trope that's persisted for too long. And anything that associates those things together is bullshit.

[1:19:25] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:19:26] Tommy: Especially in a negative light like this.

[1:19:28] Jimi: A hundred percent. So not happy about that one, but very interested.

[1:19:35] Tommy: I like the fact that the discussion's out there.

[1:19:37] Jimi: Sure.

[1:19:37] Tommy: You know what I mean? Um, not from Michael Rydell. That discussion can get in the bin, but the, the Vox article.

[1:19:44] Jimi: I will say in spite of my disagreement with both of these things, perhaps.

[1:19:48] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:19:48] Jimi: You know, less, less disagreement with the Vox article, but thank you.

[1:19:53] Tommy: Um, but I do like, and I think that like we, we must remain critical of these things.

[1:20:00] Jimi: Um, in, we must look for these things, like as much as I will, uh, whinge and moan about grasping for straws, finding a tiny little, maybe anti-feminist seeming thing in a largely pro-feminist musical.

[1:20:14] Tommy: Um, which I don't think is true, but like for argument's sake.

[1:20:18] Jimi: Um, still worth it to keep pulling these things apart this way because we live in such an intersectional world that we do have so many blind spots.

[1:20:28] Tommy: We do have all these moments. And just because the wide swath of the thing gets a check mark from you, doesn't mean we shouldn't keep looking at the individual things.

[1:20:38] Jimi: Like, I like that these analysis, analyses happen. I think these things pass tests in ways that, uh, are disappointing to these journalists who are looking for clickbaity articles.

[1:20:50] Tommy: Um, and so then they shoehorn or rile up people like us by writing incendiary things. And that is, uh, uh, should be detested. Who, who would ever create, uh, disparaging reactions to musicals that exist about how much they don't like them and, uh, uh, comment on, uh, uh, movie musicals before they come out? What a terrible thing.

[1:21:15] Jimi: Anyway, I'm going to go sit in my hypocrisy chair now.

[1:21:17] Tommy: Exactly.

[1:21:18] Jimi: I'll link to that video of that idea that somebody made of you talking about cats.

[1:22:47] Jimi: She is all of this mixed up and baked in a beautiful way.

[1:22:56] Jimi: She is gone, but she used to be mine.

[1:23:09] Tommy: Let's, let's take a zoom out.

[1:23:10] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:23:12] Tommy: Let's, I like doing this as a finisher.

[1:23:15] Jimi: Sure.

[1:23:16] Tommy: Let's look at adapting.

[1:23:18] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:23:19] Tommy: From the film.

[1:23:20] Jimi: I mean, it links in the sense that, um, one of the boxes biggest comments was if you're adapting the film, you should make it more authentic to the film.

[1:23:28] Tommy: Sure.

[1:23:29] Jimi: What I would argue is that it's very authentic. It's pretty close.

[1:23:32] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:23:33] Jimi: I mean, it's really, really close. Um, and, uh, a lot of the times, um, Sarah Bareilles, uh, and Dan Paulson interviews and things talk about the fact that you don't have to watch the movie for long before you realize this will make a good musical.

[1:23:48] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:23:49] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:23:50] Tommy: Right.

[1:23:50] Jimi: They say that a lot.

[1:23:51] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:23:51] Jimi: Um, and I think that that in its own right is quite an interesting point because obviously we're, we're living, we're living in the age of adaptation.

[1:24:00] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:24:01] Jimi: Well, and musical theater is generally an, an adapted art of any kind.

[1:24:05] Tommy: Yes.

[1:24:05] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:24:06] Tommy: Yes.

[1:24:06] Jimi: Of any kind. Sorry. Yes.

[1:24:08] Tommy: But particularly with movies and movie franchises.

[1:24:12] Jimi: Yes.

[1:24:12] Tommy: I do. There are these golden gems. I think Waitress is one of them. I think this is one I thought and has come to fruition.

[1:24:20] Jimi: Um, we were, we were studying, I was doing a push in English lesson about the Scottish play.

[1:24:26] Tommy: Um, right.

[1:24:28] Jimi: About set design maybe three years ago. Um, and talking about like, yeah, people set Macbeth in all sorts of different places. Um, here and here. And in doing that research, I discovered a very unknown, uh, movie called Scotland PA, uh, starring Christopher Walken and is set in a, uh, a burger joint named Macbeths.

[1:24:49] Tommy: And they like, I don't remember the exact plot, but it's a, it's a take on Macbeth around two competing burger joints.

[1:24:55] Jimi: Um, it's a musical now.

[1:24:58] Tommy: There it is.

[1:24:58] Jimi: They're trying it out.

[1:25:00] Tommy: Um, and I remember looking at it and be like, God, this just feels wide. Like, I feel like I should know about this. This should be a thing.

[1:25:07] Jimi: Um, you know, there's a bunch of these like where it almost feels like though the film needed to exist for the adaptation to happen, this is a story that is a musical better than it's a film.

[1:25:21] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:25:23] Jimi: Like it was always heading this way.

[1:25:25] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:25:25] Jimi: Um, like it's lesser known, but, uh, Spitfire Grill feels that way too. Incidentally, also about a small town diner.

[1:25:32] Tommy: Um, but like I've seen the movie, um, and like, it's a better musical, um, also spoiler, but in the movie, the like main character like drowns in a river at the very end of it.

[1:25:42] Jimi: Um, and then the musical, uh, she wins the rights to the chop.

[1:25:47] Tommy: Uh, it doesn't die.

[1:25:49] Jimi: Um, so, you know, it changed a couple of things, um, but I do think like, there is that like spidey sense you have for this particular size of thing where it's not the producers, right?

[1:26:04] Tommy: Where I think the producers makes a great musical, but the producers was big on its own right to begin with.

[1:26:10] Jimi: No one like plucked the producers out of obscurity and was like, this will be a musical. It's like, no, this is popular.

[1:26:16] Tommy: And it's because for the same reasons, the movie is popular, the musical is popular.

[1:26:19] Jimi: Yeah. I was, I was trying to think of like others.

[1:26:22] Tommy: Right.

[1:26:23] Jimi: But it's actually quite difficult.

[1:26:25] Tommy: That's the million dollar question, right? If you find one, you, you, you keep it to yourself and sell it.

[1:26:30] Jimi: Like, yeah, yeah, completely.

[1:26:32] Tommy: And because I was thinking like, oh, well, once like, yeah, in many ways it was not a massive film.

[1:26:39] Jimi: Right.

[1:26:40] Tommy: Um, but then once it's like intrinsically musical.

[1:26:43] Jimi: Right.

[1:26:43] Tommy: It's like built into it.

[1:26:45] Jimi: Um, yeah.

[1:26:46] Tommy: But like, uh, uh, you know, um, uh, more yesterday does this, uh, with nine, um, or like, um, uh, the band's visit, um, like it happens a lot, I think with like more foreign language seeming films, um, because they're a little outside of that Western audience.

[1:27:07] Jimi: Um, women on the verge.

[1:27:08] Tommy: Well, yeah.

[1:27:08] Jimi: All the, all the aspects.

[1:27:09] Tommy: Um, all the aspects.

[1:27:11] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:27:11] Tommy: Right.

[1:27:13] Jimi: All the aspects.

[1:27:14] Tommy: Full Monty, Dirty Rotten.

[1:27:15] Jimi: Uh, yeah.

[1:27:16] Tommy: Well, see, Full Monty's really big over here.

[1:27:18] Jimi: Sure.

[1:27:18] Tommy: That's fair.

[1:27:19] Jimi: And also I would never say it works, but we'll talk about Full Monty when we talk about Full Monty.

[1:27:24] Tommy: Um, but like, this is a, you know, a like medium success.

[1:27:28] Jimi: There's a certain kind of movie.

[1:27:30] Tommy: Yes.

[1:27:30] Jimi: That becomes a musical, like, and it is effective. Like we're not going to see any of the big blockbusters.

[1:27:36] Jimi: Not in a way that we'll be okay with. But live-action blockbusters. Frozen, accepted.

[1:27:44] Tommy: But I think that's the thing. Waitress is really refreshing in that respect because it's not like, oh good, of course there's a Waitress musical. No one's going to say that. And I really like that. And no one would ever be like, why hasn't anyone made a... No normal person, us excluded, would be like, why isn't there a Waitress musical yet? Because it's not that popular.

[1:28:11] Jimi: Exactly. And it means that as a writer, as someone who's adapting this, you can properly get into it because you're not having to please the audience. You're not going to have to, oh, this is the fan favorite moment. We need that.

[1:28:27] Tommy: Right. You know what I mean?

[1:28:27] Jimi: Glen Coco, Glen Coco, Glen Coco.

[1:28:38] Tommy: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Right. Right. Enough said. Yeah, I just, I really, really like it. But it got me thinking a little bit about how you go about adapting and how, again, I think Sara Bareilles and the whole team have done a really good job with Waitress, particularly with regards to song spotting.

[1:29:00] Jimi: Because it's not the most obvious moments that they've picked out. And actually, Sara Bareilles, a lot of the time, isn't just focusing on the events. She's really gotten into the characters and is telling their story as opposed to this happens. And so we'll have this song.

[1:29:20] Tommy: Right. And I really love that. That's some smart writing.

[1:29:28] Jimi: It's good. It's not like Groundhog Day, where they've taken a lot of titular moments, and I think done well, but it's not. And they're different kinds of movies. Groundhog Day is about the events, right? It's a little more external. Certainly you're in his brain, but you're watching the world around him, right? You're not so much watching him internally, I guess a little bit, but not as much as Waitress, where a lot of it is we want to see your internal monologue externalized.

[1:29:54] Tommy: Yeah. Yeah. I'll give you that. I was just, what I would say is like, you could, I think with the Waitress adaptation, you could fall very easily into the trap. I think Amelie kind of did.

[1:30:04] Jimi: Sure. Of this story is really good and really interesting. So let's tell the story in musical form.

[1:30:09] Tommy: Right. Just as opposed to slap a can of musical theatre paint on it.

[1:30:15] Jimi: Exactly. As opposed to like, let's look at these characters, what are they trying to say? How could we tell their story, but in a different light? And I think that's really what they've done successfully. There's this great interview between, it's Laura Heywood, who's Broadway Girl NYC, who I can't believe, I don't think we've ever mentioned her in the podcast before. I owe a lot to that woman. My goodness.

[1:30:40] Tommy: Because she keeps buying you dinner or something and like, yeah, exactly. I think it's like $700 at this point. No, I know she, she was a kind of a big part of me getting like nerding out.

[1:30:51] Jimi: Sure. You know, she was one of the first people I followed on Twitter, I think. Wow. It's crazy. Yeah. But yeah, so she is doing it's one of the build series interviews with Sara and Jesse. And it's nice because she's, I mean, she's like us, she's our kin, she's a musical theatre fan.

[1:31:06] Tommy: Yeah, exactly. So she's obviously like nerding out, but it's really nice. She talks a little bit about the adaptations and how they go about it. And one of the things she said, I was like, Oh, it's really I've never thought about this before. But she says that a song is like an extreme close up in a film. A song in a musical is like an extreme close up film.

[1:31:30] Jimi: Because she was comparing it to says one of her favourite lines that is taken straight from the film. Yeah. And brought into a song is I could find the whole meaning of life in those sad eyes. That I can't remember his name, but it'll be do I and say to Jenna. And apparently in the film, there's lots of like really like big close ups of Jenna's eyes. And they're quite a key feature. Obviously, you can't do that right in the musical. And they're not going to keep like, God, Jenna, look at your eyes. But they do like those moments where she like goes into her brain and the whole world drops out around her. It is an extreme close up.

[1:32:16] Tommy: Exactly. That's it's showing you that part of the, like you said, the internal monologue. Yeah, that you see through looks and small facial movements that we can't get on a stage. So helps us bring it to the fore. And I was like, actually, from a song spotting perspective, that's a really interesting thing, because I've like had a play with adapting things before. I'm determined to adapt to Wong Fu. I know it's a production. Sure, whatever. I will do it.

[1:32:46] Jimi: Yeah, you'll be working on it already.

[1:32:46] Tommy: Yeah, I've already. I mean, we're so there. Anyway. Yeah, but I was like, I would never have thought about that. Like looking at the cinematography, it's such a being like, what story is that telling? And it's also tell it goes against the conventional wisdom so much where, like, when you can't talk anymore, you sing and then you can't sing anymore. You start to dance.

[1:33:09] Jimi: Right. Yes. Yes. Going in for an extreme close up is the exact opposite.

[1:33:14] Tommy: Right. Exactly. And like the show does both. Never, ever getting rid of me is like, and he starts singing and jumps on the table because, of course, but I had never like. It changes how you look at those songs. Like, I wonder even even with that sort of idea in mind, like we're I'm working again on Into the Woods right now at my school. And like, I wonder that that sort of insight would absolutely change how I would stage moments in the woods.

[1:33:48] Jimi: Right. Right. It becomes an entirely different song in a cool and interesting way. Like, I don't think it loses its meaning, but you do different things if you think of it as a close up as opposed to a musical number.

[1:34:03] Tommy: Absolutely. And I think Into the Woods is a really good example because there's a lot of introspective numbers. Right. Because something like I Know Things Now or Steps of the Palace. Right. You could you can really you could play about that. And I know what you can say. Well, I wonder if like because I don't particularly enjoy the movie for a ton of reasons.

[1:34:19] Jimi: I don't particularly.

[1:34:19] Tommy: The Into the Woods movie. Yes. Yeah. And because the songs are written how they are already and you have to use them, but you're in the movie. So you have a moment to do a close up of Cinderella right there.

[1:34:30] Jimi: Right. Right. And like if it's the non-musical movie where we're just telling the story of Into the Woods, that's exactly what it would be is like a zoom in close up and you just see like Cinderella do like, ah, like a lot of that exasperatedness. But instead, because it started as a piece of musical theater and Sondheim did it, they are these bigger moments, you know, giants in the sky. Like that's not a close up, but it could be in that moment if the song was different, if that was where it started from. Which is cool.

[1:35:04] Tommy: Yeah, I really love it. Well done, Laura Haywood. That is a cool idea. Yeah. And I want to play with that now when I play my adapting game that I like to play. I'd be like, oh, that's a theme that they pull out in the cinematography. Is there something, what story are they trying to tell there? How could I tell that story through song?

[1:35:26] Jimi: Well, and even just the question of like, even with some already existing stuff, does this number need to keep getting bigger as it goes through the thing? Or can we decrescendo through it and zoom in with it and make it more intimate as it goes on?

[1:35:37] Tommy: Exactly. That's cool. Actually, yeah. Well, because I think with a song like She Used To Be Mine, I can't go through this podcast without mentioning that. One of the things that makes it so successful as a musical theater number is how simple it is.

[1:35:58] Jimi: Yeah. It doesn't go anywhere. It doesn't need to. It doesn't like musically, physically, like. Yeah. It's not riffed out, it's not. I mean, it's just it's really honest.

[1:36:13] Tommy: Yeah. And that kind of thing you can just see. I mean, I've not I've not seen the film, so I don't know if this is a scene, but I can picture there being a scene. Yeah. With Jenna sitting on the sofa, like head and hands. Yeah. Looking at her life. Beyond the verge of tears, just like. Yeah. To the point of like such deep introspective contemplation.

[1:36:36] Jimi: Absolutely. And I would pop. Yeah. She Used To Be Mine. But in a film, you just need a really quiet. Yeah. Scene of this, you know, really sad moment. Yeah. And then, you know, like you wouldn't necessarily think, ah, there's there's a number.

[1:36:54] Tommy: Right. Because there's no light. There's no. Yeah. But it is like. Maybe the on the if we're holding next to each other all of the eleven o'clock numbers in musical theater, of which Right. She Used To Be Mine is absolutely the eleven o'clock number.

[1:37:08] Jimi: Yeah. Yeah. It is, you know, it's it's not Millie running around the stage. Gimme, gimme. Gimme, gimme. Right. Yeah. Sixteen key change. That thing called like up and up and up and up and up. Right. It's no roses turn like bigger for me, for me, for me. Yeah. Like it's just so like one line getting a little smaller as we go.

[1:37:31] Tommy: Yeah. I like it. It's a whisper on the wind. I didn't know, but now I see sometimes what is meant to be, used to take the beat. My blurry lines, my messy life come into focus and in time maybe. I can hear and I can breathe. Cause I can feel myself breathing.

[1:38:05] Jimi: Everything changes. My heart's at the wheel now. And all my mistakes, they make sense when I turn around. Everything changes. What I thought was a pain I didn't face. In the blink of an eye, there's a new life in front of me. In the blink of an eye, there's a new life in front of me. And I know in due time, every right thing will find its right. And I know in due time, every right thing will find its right. So I swear I'll remember to say, we were both born today. Cause everything changes. Everything changes.

[1:39:10] Tommy: Jimi, that was Waitress.

[1:39:16] Jimi: That was Waitress. And not once did we talk about Al Roker.

[1:39:23] Tommy: I don't understand. Al Roker played the old guy as a, do you know who Al Roker is? He's a weatherman on Good Morning America. He's quite a character. He played the old guy for a little while. And during the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade this year, pushed a guy dressed up like butter and said, get out of here, butter. And then, and then, and then Lin-Manuel Miranda tweeted a video of that saying Al Roker did a push on a butter. Which is not a thing to just, but then it was a video. Oh, just as a phrasing. As a phrasing of like Al Roker's hitting people on TV.

[1:39:54] Jimi: That's great. Yeah. When you don't know who Al Roker is. None of that's funny.

[1:39:58] Tommy: Really funny and entertaining. Um, yes. Uh, but Hey, guess what Al Roker wasn't in? The next show we're going to talk about.

[1:40:09] Jimi: You're so right. Hey, you ready for a quiz question to guess what it is?

[1:40:13] Tommy: I got my seatbelt on. Hit me.

[1:40:16] Jimi: Well, this musical accidentally shut down a so-called musical theater lab because it premiered first. The lab was working on The Secret Garden, My Favorite Year, and The Show. Hal Prince is of the opinion that the lab would still be functioning today had The Secret Garden premiered first instead of our next musical. What show?

[1:40:44] Tommy: That's a good question. If you want to get in touch with us, you can find us at the show, Twitter and Instagram. They're both Jim and Tomek, J-I-M-A-N-D-T-O-M-I-C. Or you can join the Reddit discussion. All these links are in the show notes in your pod catcher right now or at jimandtomek.com.

[1:41:00] Jimi: And while you're there, if you would like, you can check out our Patreon. If you would like to financially support the show, we love all you patrons out there. You guys are fantastic. But also, if you would just like to leave us a little review on Apple podcasts, they are equally as helpful and wonderful.

[1:41:19] Tommy: And as always, it helps when you tell your friends about this show. Most people hear about this show from other people who've listened to it. You can be that person today. I give you permission.

[1:41:28] Jimi: Exactly. Yes.

[1:41:30] Tommy: You can't see it, but I pointed at the microphone.

[1:41:32] Jimi: Shout out from the rooftops, ladies and gentlemen. Shout out from the rooftops, Jim and Tomek.

[1:41:38] Tommy: Maybe not that. Then the police might have to come looking for us.

[1:41:42] Jimi: That's true. We take no responsibility for any arrests.

[1:41:46] Tommy: But hey, that's all for this time around the block. Thank you very much for listening, everyone.

[1:41:51] Jimi: Cheers!

[1:41:52] Tommy: Cheers!

[1:42:06] Jimi: I had a Malbec earlier, just saying.