This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:58] Tommy: Welcome to Jim and Tomic's Musical Theatre Happy Hour.

[1:02] Jimi: I'm Tommy.

[1:03] Jimi: And I'm Jimi.

[1:04] Jimi: And this is the only musical theatre podcast with vintage wines.

[1:09] Jimi: Here, we take about your favourite shows, muddle them together with a shot of buffoonery, and pour you a refreshing, refreshing, or refleshing, ew, glass of musical theatre conversation.

[1:21] Tommy: What are you drinking today, Jimi?

[1:22] Jimi: Oh, Tommy, well, today I am drinking...

[1:29] Jimi: I keep forgetting that we do this.

[1:31] Jimi: Goat's blood.

[1:33] Jimi: The blood of, yeah, goats.

[1:36] Jimi: No, that's grim. There'll be something there.

[1:40] Jimi: I am drinking just like this fabulous rainbow cocktail.

[1:47] Tommy: Happy pride?

[1:48] Jimi: I don't know.

[1:53] Tommy: Read the quiz question, what are we doing?

[1:55] Jimi: So, despite being the brainchild of British authors, this show prominently features the American spelling of a word in order to match a trademark.

[2:08] Jimi: What show?

[2:10] Jimi: It is Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat.

[2:16] Jimi: Bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum.

[2:20] Tommy: You're gonna use a different one now.

[2:22] Jimi: No, I probably won't, actually.

[2:45] Tommy: So, I was watching it with my boyfriend, and that intro started, which is supposed to be a fanfare.

[3:10] Tommy: And then, in all his infinite wisdom, Andrew Lloyd Webber does it again. The same stupid fanfare, which is mostly the same note over and over again. And it's not like this is some thematic melody line that underscores a really important message in a thing. No, it's way, way back, many centuries ago, not long after. Like, it's such a stupid... Also, I don't know if you get this, but every time I hear it, it goes, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da.

[3:41] Tommy: I always go back to, tell me what you think about your friends at the top.

[3:49] Jimi: Yeah, okay, we're doing, we can't get, it's Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat.

[3:57] Jimi: They spell color the American way, not the British way. Music by Andrew Lloyd Webber. Lyrics by Tim Rice, based on a book of Genesis. It was originally written for a school and made its way to the West End in a really complicated way. I don't like this show, Jimi.

[4:10] Jimi: Well, you know, listen, I've written this further down, but this is when I start to understand when people shout at me for liking Cats. Because I get this. Now, I could sit in here and, you know, write an essay and defend why Cats is better than Joseph. But for the moment, I'll just sit in a mutual understanding. Because yeah, I think the way a lot of people feel about Cats, I feel about Joseph. I think I was, I was trying to like, wrap my brain around these thoughts yesterday. And you know, I've been trying to turn over a new leaf with Cats. And I do think I have come to a place where like, I can appreciate it for what it is and embrace some of its zaniness. Like, right. And, you know, and enjoy it for that. I think I like Joseph less. I think I hate Joseph more. I think I find it a little more destructive in the canon.

[5:06] Tommy: Yeah, I completely agree, actually.

[5:12] Tommy: Yeah, it's, it's, it's funny. Because, again, there's so many people and it's weird, because I feel like I've been on the other side of it. Because there's so many people I know, who like, adore this show. I know people that would say this is their favorite musical.

[5:29] Jimi: Oh, right. I'm sorry.

[5:34] Tommy: I know, exactly. They're in my life.

[5:41] Tommy: And it's not a legitimate reason to stop talking to them.

[5:44] Jimi: No.

[5:44] Tommy: Like, I know. And it's, you know, hey, Jimi and Tommy, we're never going to yuck your yums. If that's what you're into.

[5:49] Jimi: Right. If you like the show, great. You do. Because again, that's me and Cats. I've been through that same struggle. I have no doubt that by the end of this, there will be things we find that we do enjoy about this show.

[5:56] Jimi: Absolutely. But that doesn't stop it from being trash.

[6:03] Tommy: Like, come on. We got to talk about how we got here.

[6:13] Jimi: By railroading through that introduction, you've completely messed up my musical segues. So, hang on, this will be the shortest intro ever. I'm going to put a musical segue in right now.

[6:56] Tommy: Okay. Thank you for opening this safe space for us to now talk about the journey.

[7:05] Jimi: People are used to the format, Tommy. I can't go changing that up.

[7:08] Tommy: I know. So many things have changed this year. We can't.

[7:14] Tommy: Yeah, I must say, I'm really glad we picked this hard-hitting, with all the things, with these challenging times, you know, I'm glad we picked a show that really talks about the issues.

[7:24] Jimi: Right, exactly. This is the one. This is it. What I will say, actually, on that note, if you are currently in the midst of a re-education or just wanting to explore other issues more, fair listeners, do check out some of our other podcasts, which are on shows that mean more and are more important.

[7:45] Tommy: We'll put a rundown in the show notes of some. We've talked about, you know, the blackness as it associates with American musical theater and the Scottsboro Boys.

[7:59] Jimi: Exactly. The Scottsboro Boys is the one that I would always say to people, go listen to, because that, for me, changed a lot of my, I learned a lot just studying that show.

[8:08] Jimi: And it's still a show that people don't speak about nearly enough.

[8:12] Tommy: And I do think it was a seminal part in kind of our conversation and engagement with some of this stuff in ways that we're all still learning and we're still learning and still are going to screw it up morally in a bunch of places. But if you need a break from the world, listen to this one, Joseph. If you want to engage more, we've got some stuff in the back catalogue for you.

[8:34] Jimi: Exactly. And there'll be stuff coming in the future, but for the moment, we had already said Joseph. And here we are.

[8:41] Tommy: We stick to it.

[8:43] Tommy: They wrote this when they were very young, which-

[8:45] Jimi: Way, way back, many centuries ago, they wrote it.

[8:48] Tommy: Yeah. In the grand time of 1968, Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice, who were friends when they were kids, which is weird.

[8:57] Jimi: Yeah, I know.

[8:59] Tommy: Or surprising, I guess. I don't want to categorize that as weird. But so they wrote a 15 minute, 20 minute version of this to be performed at a boys' school in London.

[9:14] Jimi: In London? In England?

[9:14] Tommy: In London, yeah.

[9:24] Tommy: And I guess we'd be loath not to mention one of our good pals of the podcast actually went to the school, not at that time. That would have been excellent.

[9:27] Jimi: Can you imagine?

[9:28] Tommy: Like we had an OBC member, not OBC, I don't know, original choir cast member.

[9:34] Jimi: Yeah, where do you think, where do you think like the original Benjamin is today?

[9:40] Tommy: Right. That's an interesting thing. Where's that BuzzFeed article?

[9:45] Jimi: I guess here's a transatlantic question for you. Did you have to perform in like pageants as a kid in school?

[9:52] Tommy: Like, I both-

[9:56] Jimi: As in like Honey Boo Boo?

[10:00] Tommy: No, no, no, no, no. Like both in Catholic school where they were religious themed, but then in my time teaching in non-parochial schools, like the third graders would do the Thanksgiving pageant, which, you know, we're going to talk about the pilgrims and corn and like, or like, you know, like school plays, but for young people.

[10:21] Tommy: So like more than like special assemblies.

[10:24] Jimi: But like here, now all the fourth graders are going to tell you about Greek myths.

[10:29] Tommy: No, no.

[10:30] Tommy: And I'm Zeus with a thunderbolt. No, that wasn't a thing.

[10:33] Jimi: We have like school written shows, like shows written for schools, some of which are epic, one of which I would actually like to cover on the podcast at some point.

[10:42] Tommy: Excellent.

[10:43] Tommy: One called King Leo. Anyway.

[10:46] Jimi: That sounds fascinating. But you've never done like non-previously written, like student-generated when kids are a little too young to maybe do that?

[10:54] Tommy: No, like we'll do, we'll sometimes do shows and things like that. But the only time I can ever remember doing something that was for like my primary school's 60th Jubilee or something like that. And every year group did a show. We did the Wizard of Oz completely illegally.

[11:09] Jimi: Yeah.

[11:10] Tommy: Like that's the only.

[11:12] Tommy: And like I was raised in Catholic school. So we had like a Christmas pageant, which was mostly Christmas songs, but also, you know, a little reenactment of Jesus in the manger.

[11:22] Tommy: And we had an Easter pageant, which was mostly like Jesus being nailed to the cross, but as performed by sixth graders, which is wild.

[11:30] Jimi: Like that was just, that was just a thing that was a natural part of my upbringing.

[11:33] Tommy: And parents came to see this?

[11:35] Jimi: Yes, absolutely. And as a sign of the times, I played Judas in our Stations of the Cross reenactment.

[11:43] Tommy: Okay, great.

[11:45] Tommy: You know, but maybe my teachers knew better then that I was going to become an atheist.

[11:50] Jimi: A mad homosexual.

[11:52] Tommy: Yeah, probably.

[11:53] Tommy: Yeah.

[11:53] Jimi: Um, no, we didn't. So wait, as you're thinking, like, this would be prime pageant material.

[11:59] Tommy: That I mean, that is, that is the thing I'm associating it with. And even like the Donny Osmond film, straight to film production of this kind of evokes that taste for me.

[12:12] Jimi: Yes.

[12:13] Tommy: But it is interesting to me that that is not, you know, part and parcel of perhaps British school culture in a way that I assumed it was.

[12:19] Jimi: No, like this, this thing of like getting something commissioned for your school.

[12:26] Tommy: Yeah.

[12:26] Jimi: Like that would take a very special teacher to do that. You know what I mean?

[12:30] Tommy: Fascinating.

[12:30] Tommy: To seek that out. That isn't something that would ever happen. Like, no, like we have school shows and we do school musicals, but not in this extent of like, let's premiere something.

[12:42] Jimi: Purpose, purpose written.

[12:46] Tommy: Like we, the other, I guess the unspoken part about it is like, I think in American schools, they're also shitty.

[12:49] Jimi: Yes.

[12:50] Jimi: And like in a beautiful childlike way, I never want to, you know, I always need to say like, yes, and kids should be encouraged to write. And like, I'm, I am there for the first grade teacher who teaches all the kids to play the hot cross buns on the recorder and like has to sit through that. That stuff is important and it's shitty. Cause they're kids.

[13:12] Tommy: Okay. Fascinating. So this started as, you know, Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice's shitty school project.

[13:19] Jimi: Yeah, basically. So it was commissioned, I think, by a teacher, a music teacher who commissioned it for, I think, a boy's choir. And it started out as just what like.

[13:31] Jimi: A 15-minute piece, roughly based on the story of Joseph. And then it weirdly grew arms and legs. I don't really understand. It just kind of stumbled and continued to get bigger and bigger. I believe it made its way to the Fringe early on.

[13:44] Tommy: Yeah, so not the Fringe. It's just before the Fringe. Very confusing. We've got the International Festival, which now runs concurrently with the Fringe, but I think back then...

[13:50] Jimi: They were different.

[13:52] Tommy: They were different, yes. But, yeah, it's a Fringe theatre, similar kind of vibe. And that was actually, weirdly, the production that propelled it onto the West End stage.

[14:02] Jimi: The West End, which then kind of made, like, that was the leap from this kind of, like, schoolhouse, gymatorium production to, I don't know, what one might term the legitimate theatre.

[14:13] Tommy: Right, exactly. And I think a lot of it was due to the fact that, in this time, Andrew Lloyd Webber had released Jesus Christ Superstar and it kind of garnered so much fame from that, that people were like, hey, look at this other, like, niche.

[14:27] Jimi: Right, yeah. Is this us talking about Dave Malloy and, like, Beardo? Are we like, let's get Beardo? You know what I mean? Is this the equivalent?

[14:33] Tommy: I mean, I don't know if this is the negative assumptions I have about Andrew Lloyd Webber as opposed to Dave Malloy.

[14:41] Jimi: Wait, you don't like Andrew Lloyd Webber?

[14:44] Tommy: I would wager, because, have you read Andrew Lloyd Webber's Wikipedia article recently? I love this. I found this in doing research.

[14:50] Jimi: Shockingly enough, not recently, no.

[14:52] Tommy: One, I always enjoy that his full title is the Right Honorable The Lord Lloyd Webber.

[14:57] Jimi: Lord Lloyd Webber, yeah.

[14:58] Tommy: But he is also described as a composer and impresario, and I had to click on the blue letters impresario to know what that means. A person who organizes and often finances concert plays and operas, performing a role in the stage arts that is similar to that of a film or television producer. So it's like a fancy word to say producer, which absolutely Lloyd Webber is. All of that to say, I have no doubt, whether it's been publicized or not, that Andrew had a lot to do with his own self-promotion.

[15:36] Jimi: I may not like him in a lot of ways, but he is good at promoting his brand.

[15:41] Tommy: I mean, he conquered the States.

[15:43] Jimi: Yeah. All of his reality productions nowadays are centered around his stage productions. I could say I'm 90% sure that after Superstar started to take off, he was like, well, I got this thing. Take a look at that. Let's do this one.

[16:02] Tommy: 'Cause it was already done. I mean, it was like, hey, this exists. We've got this now. Wrap it up, add a song, add a megamix, send it off. Bish bash bosh, mate. Yeah. So it landed on the West End and was really successful.

[16:19] Jimi: I think it went through a couple of iterations even on West End before it became the show that we know today, like the full version.

[16:27] Tommy: Yeah. It was really hard to do a track changes for this show when I was trying to research it, even across the West End version and the Broadway version and some of the revivals. And it's not like meaningful changes. It's not like, are they performing Our Little World or not into the woods? It's like stupid little song changes or like, did they add the song or when did they add this song? And it's not really... I couldn't find a good source that laid it out in a way that I could understand.

[17:02] Jimi: No, I think without finding the original theatre programs and things like that, you're not really going to know. I'm sure there's probably a massive ALW nerd out there who does exactly know and, you know, hit us up.

[17:12] Tommy: Send it our way and we'll retweet it.

[17:14] Jimi: Absolutely. But yeah, it's really hard to see because the show basically went from 30 minutes long to 80 minutes.

[17:23] Tommy: I mean, the full produced version now is 120 minutes. I read reviews of some of the 90s revivals that said it was 120 minutes long. And like, even the movie is 70 something.

[17:32] Jimi: But nothing's come from the movie. So how is that 120 minutes long? What show is it? Did they just do it twice?

[17:40] Tommy: I mean, kind of. I'm sure the Megamix was an hour long. Or like, they hit every song with a reprise.

[17:46] Jimi: Right, yeah. Everyone could sing along to this one.

[17:49] Tommy: Yeah, exactly. Do a Mamma Mia. But yeah, this show's journey... I'm of two thoughts of it. I do honestly adore that, you know, a college-age kids project can become so popular. That's really cool to me.

[18:02] Jimi: And I do think we see that a lot in musical theatre. I mean, that's in The Heights. You know, there's tons of, especially contemporary shows, that start as, you know, people's young projects. Because I think the voice of young people is powerful and important and will be de facto new-sounding, even if it's based on Genesis.

[18:24] Tommy: I am of that mind on one half. On the other half, Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat would never have become popular had Andrew Lloyd Webber not found success in Jesus Christ Superstar. It's, you know, mediocre at best.

[18:40] Jimi: Like, certainly not in a national stage. Like, certainly not to that... Like, maybe in schools. It could have been that show that every school does. Was Almost Maine, is that that play that everyone does?

[18:50] Tommy: Yes, that everyone does.

[18:51] Jimi: You know what I mean? That could be an equivalent.

[18:53] Tommy: Right. Joseph is perfect for what it was written for.

[18:56] Jimi: Exactly. A bunch of middle school boys reenacting a biblical tale. The fact that Donny Osmond is in it is completely attributed to, like, Andrew's, you know, somewhat bizarre rise to success.

[19:07] Tommy: Right, exactly. So here...

[19:09] Jimi: Which is, I guess, is frustrating.

[19:11] Tommy: Donny Osmond is a great moment to talk about. So, um, like, is that when, like, for, like, contemporary musical theatre fans, like our generation of musical theatre fans who will have a relationship with Joseph, is that your... was that your gateway?

[19:26] Jimi: Oh, Donny Osmond, absolutely. My gateway actually was more like the Donny Osmond film. Like, a touring local production of Joseph came and performed it in my Catholic school's gymatorium when I was in seventh grade. Like, that was my exposure to this.

[19:41] Tommy: Right, okay.

[19:42] Jimi: And it's a great idea. Man, if you want to make a bunch of money, tour the north suburb of Chicago's Catholic schools with a religious play.

[19:50] Tommy: I know. Like, man, that great idea. And I'm sure at the time, you know, I don't want to invent seventh grade memories for me, but I'm sure at the time I loved it because it was musical theatre and I wasn't very much exposed to that.

[20:05] Jimi: Right, and it's fun.

[20:06] Tommy: It's fun. We got to skip gym. Like, of course, we're going to enjoy it.

[20:10] Jimi: The dream.

[20:11] Tommy: Right. But I would wager that most people, most Americans, like, touch point for this is Donny Osmond.

[20:17] Jimi: Okay. And I think, again, for a lot of people like my generation, it would be the same. But certainly in the UK, it feels like a stalwart thing. Like, we've had lots of, like, iconic Josephs beyond Donny Osmond.

[20:30] Tommy: That's so fascinating to me.

[20:32] Jimi: Yeah, I know. Like, there's a lot of people who would just, when they hear Joseph, they think Jason Donovan.

[20:39] Tommy: I don't even know who that is.

[20:41] Jimi: That's wild. That is wild to me. Honestly, that is wild to me.

[20:45] Tommy: Who is Jason Donovan?

[20:47] Jimi: So Jason Donovan was, he started off in Neighbours, the Australian soap.

[20:52] Tommy: Soap opera. I was going to say sitcom, but okay.

[20:54] Jimi: And he had a relationship with Kylie Minogue, who also isn't huge in America, which is, again, baffling to me.

[21:02] Tommy: Kylie Minogue maybe might be huger than you think, but not, I'm sure, in the way that she is in the UK.

[21:09] Jimi: Yeah, exactly. And so they had a relationship in that. And then they both kind of got exported to the UK. That's quite a lot of Australian things did. Because we got Neighbours on our television. So we got that on our terrestrial television. And so we knew who he was.

[21:24] Tommy: So when he came into Joseph, he did it for quite a long time, as far as I can remember. And then he was replaced by a guy called Philip Schofield.

[21:33] Jimi: Also don't know who that is.

[21:35] Tommy: So he's like our Regis.

[21:37] Jimi: Got it. Okay.

[21:39] Tommy: Yeah. Talk show host.

[21:40] Jimi: Yeah. Morning talk show icon.

[21:42] Tommy: Oh, I recognize him. Sure.

[21:44] Jimi: Philip and Holly. They've kind of gone viral on YouTube now because they've had some funny Graham Norton style moments.

[21:50] Tommy: I'm sure that's where I've seen him. But the American touchpoint would be Regis and Kelly.

[21:55] Jimi: Yes. And again, iconic as people. Philip Schofield, a lot of his fame came from replacing Jason Donovan in Joseph.

[22:06] Tommy: And he was famous before being in Joseph?

[22:09] Jimi: Not hugely. No. Because he did children's TV back then. So he wouldn't have got the This Morning gig had he not done Joseph.

[22:16] Tommy: Got it. Because it's the other way around for Donny Osmond. Everyone knew who Donny Osmond was.

[22:23] Jimi: The theory I was developing in my brain, which is untrue, is that this show only survives with a star vehicle. But that's not what you're saying.

[22:31] Tommy: Not at all. No. Because Philip Schofield was still almost just as successful as Jason Donovan. And he still wasn't a household name.

[22:39] Jimi: Also, sidebar with Philip Schofield. What's lovely. He came out recently.

[22:43] Tommy: Oh, congrats to Philip.

[22:45] Jimi: Absolutely. Congrats to Philip. And yeah, we're all happy about that.

[22:49] Tommy: But yeah, again, it's funny to me because I'm like, these are such stalwart UK people. And we know them because of Joseph.

[22:56] Jimi: That's so fascinating to me, too, because it's such a stupid part. It's not Mama Rose. It's not one of these, you know...

[23:04] Tommy: It's not Phantom. People could not name you a Phantom. They could maybe say Michael Crawford. They could probably say Jared Butler. But they would never... Whereas you say Joseph, you say Jason Donovan.

[23:15] Jimi: And what did these performers do that differentiated their interpretation of the deep and nuanced subtleties of the character of Joseph?

[23:23] Tommy: Right? Nothing. They were a camper? I don't know.

[23:27] Jimi: Yeah. It's such like a Wonderbread role. There's nothing to do with it. That's fascinating in its journey. This whole show is just a big, bizarre accident.

[23:39] Tommy: Absolutely. And I mean, again, we talked about it earlier when we were talking about Ldubs, but when his reality TV competition was to find the next Joseph. And it was huge. It was literally like a national treasure TV show when that happened.

[23:54] Jimi: And it wasn't my favorite of all of them. But, you know, that's fine.

[23:57] Tommy: When we run out of musicals, we'll cover those.

[24:00] Jimi: Yeah. Oh, my God. I would die if we covered Over the Rainbow, the Wizard of Oz one. Still to this day, one of my favorite TV shows. But yeah, it's just, I don't know, crazy to me.

[24:14] Tommy: It's such a celebration of mediocrity.

[24:18] Jimi: Well, I think what a beautiful segue to start talking about why we're saying it's mediocre.

[24:24] Tommy: I'm on a mighty roll, running off the roof alone.

[24:29] Jimi: Joseph, I'll see you rot in jail. The things you have done are beyond the pale.

[24:40] Tommy: Poor, poor Joseph, locked up in a cell. Things ain't going well, hey, locked up in a cell.

[27:03] Jimi: What's quite funny is like, I would say like in the UK, it is one of the most popular musicals. Everyone has an opinion about it. It's similar to Cats, I would say.

[27:15] Tommy: Sure.

[27:16] Jimi: Whereas Cats, like people kind of, they hear Cats and they just, they kind of hate it because they know it's hated. Whereas Joseph doesn't have that same treatment. Like Joseph is like, ah!

[27:28] Tommy: Yeah, how sweet.

[27:29] Jimi: Yeah, exactly. Because people have this link to their, I don't know, it maybe is this kind of nostalgic vibe to their childhood. They're like, oh yeah. It's such a, man, I wrote this word down and I can't remember it.

[27:40] Tommy: It was in, I reread The Great White Way a couple weeks ago.

[27:43] Jimi: Right. No, it wasn't in that. It was in an article that was referenced in it. I got a big, like red yarn wall of different articles I've been reading. And for the life of me, I can't remember this word. Please someone tell me if you can think about it. But it's an idea of manufactured nostalgia. The article I was reading about was, talked about 42nd Street, the musical, not the movie. And I wish I had this line of thought when we originally talked about 42nd Street. That like 42nd Street, the 1990s musical is kind of manufacturing a like, oh yeah, I remember that out of things that didn't really exist then. Like it adds a bunch of new songs that aren't in the movie. It cuts a couple problematic things that are in the movie, but still makes you like nod and sigh and be like, oh yeah, the good old times.

And like, it feels like a revival, but it's not. It's a brand new show based on a very old movie. And they had a word to describe this thing and I can't remember what it is, but there is that sort of same feel. And Joseph, like this manufactured nostalgia. Like, yes. If you walked back into the theatre when you saw it originally, would you have the same reaction of like, oh my God, I love this? Or how many people like, you know, would go see a version in the early 2000s and have that kind of feeling like, oh Joseph, I remember hearing about that in a pleasant way. But have not actually had a previous history or experience with Joseph. Just the whole thing itself is kind of manufacturing your memory of it.

And it kind of does double duty there because it is a biblical retelling, which already kind of does that. And even in its content and its structure, you know, this is really what it is, I think, as I have this conversation out loud. Like the whole, you know, if we're going to talk content, like Joseph's I Want song is Close Every Door to Me, or whatever the real name of that song is. Yeah, Close Every Door, right? That has to be his I Want song. It's not an I Want song. Well, because the thing is, you could argue that it's Any Dream Will Do. But that also, that's a song that exists out of time. Right, out of time. And seems very much like in one version, it was the finale, but it was too good of a song for them to make it the finale.

So they kind of need to put it as part of the like prologue prologue. Right. The concept of Joseph having any sort of hero's journey. Right. But if you're gonna like implement that on top of it, structure wise, Close Every Door is like a character moment for him. And also he expresses no wants in this song other than like, leave me here, which would make a very boring rest of the show. Yeah. And then, like, I don't think I'm mincing words when I say a chorus of disco people show up and say, Hey, Joseph, don't be so down in the dumps. We've read the Bible and we know it turns out okay. Go, go, go, Joseph. Sha-na-na-na. Like, and so there is already this like, pre-established even in the prologue, like, Oh, you know this story, right?

The story of Joseph. Don't you remember how it went? Yeah. And it latches onto intentionally or otherwise, this kind of like, nostalgic, I don't know, flavor pellet. Uh-huh. That kind of carries it through, which I think might, I would wager, might inform why people seem to have this heartwarming, nostalgic feel with it. It is interesting. It might not really be there. You've kind of hit something here because like, so out of interest, what, well, you went to Catholic school, potentially. Yeah. How much Old Testament did you get? Plenty. Okay. I certainly, I am confident because I'm sure they did it in preparation, but I'm certain when we went to see the musical in the gymatorium, we had spent the last day reading the story of Joseph.

Okay. Right. I'm sure we were prepped that way. In like, mainstream elementary? Probably less so, which is another fascinating thing about this being a religious piece, which hashtag I want to get to later. Yeah. But you know, I don't know if Joseph is in, my boyfriend who was raised pretty agnostic does not know the story of Joseph. Right. Aside from as presented in the musical. Same with, certainly with my primary school education, it may be different now. I don't think it is. Sure. I went to a relatively secular primary school, but we did have RE and we did do some stories in the Bible. Joseph was not among them. Interesting. We did Moses. Yeah. We did, I think it might have just been Moses from Old Testament. Did you do Adam and Eve? Not really. No. Okay. No, actually not in any sort of detail.

[33:06] Tommy: Okay. But Moses is like a studyable story. Like we did that. Like historical. Yeah. And yeah, I think the passion, the one that hit the holidays, like the classics. Yeah. But Joseph is never among them. So again, that's another, like when you talk about that, like nostalgia, like, you know, this story actually. Well, and I do wonder, because what is fascinating about Joseph, because it is in the Old Testament, because it is in Genesis. And of course I went to Catholic school, so I'm, you know, a little out of my lane here. But Joseph is also a pretty prominent figure in Judaism as well. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, because I know like, certainly from a lot of my Jewish friends, like one of their big movies is the animation of Joseph, King of Dreams, I think it's called, which is the other DreamWorks animation that was Prince of Egypt.

[34:00] Jimi: Oh, I don't know. Is it about Joseph?

[34:02] Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It never reached the heights in success that Prince of Egypt did. Sure. But it's still actually really good, beautifully animated in the complete same style. Like, yeah. And it's the same story, Joseph and the sons of Jacob. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like loved by a lot of Jewish families. Yeah. Because again, that's one of the big stories that they would have learned as children. Sure. And that's fascinating, because maybe there is a different reason why British people and American people like this. Like, I guess I don't know if this is entirely true, but an assumption I've had about one of the differences between British culture and American culture is that at least in British culture, religion is a little more performative and people kind of, and tell me I'm wrong if I am, but that there is more of a sense, you know, your religion doesn't end up as closely mired with a lot of your politics in the same way it does in America.

[35:04] Jimi: I think the converse is there and that it's so deeply ingrained in our politics.

[35:09] Tommy: Ah, okay. That it's impossible to separate?

[35:11] Jimi: Yeah. But it's moved with the times, like obviously we're not a complete Catholic country that lives by Catholic law. Right. But, you know.

[35:18] Tommy: Do politicians mention God in public speeches?

[35:21] Jimi: Yeah, they would. And that wouldn't be a weird thing.

[35:24] Tommy: Okay. And I mean, I don't know the intricacies of this. I'm really feeling I'm ignorant, but like.

[35:29] Jimi: Sure. And me neither in America.

[35:31] Tommy: Yeah, like, but I think they would, you know, and certainly the House of Commons and things in Parliament, they still swear by God and the royal family are all like performatively religious. Right. Like they could never not get married in a church.

[35:43] Jimi: Sure. Okay. For example.

[35:44] Tommy: Yeah, yeah. Which I think may have been the thing recently. I don't know. I don't know enough about it because I am not religious in any way. And like that's the other half is like, I don't care enough about it. Right. Like it's performative to me to the get go. And then beyond that, I don't care to look into the intricacies.

[36:01] Jimi: Yeah. But it is the, well, here, will you play some music here so we can talk about adaptations? I want to give you your segues.

[36:06] Tommy: Well, wait, I don't think we're finished in content.

[36:08] Jimi: But I want to, okay.

[36:09] Tommy: We'll talk about it later.

[36:10] Jimi: Yeah, we'll get there because I think you've made a beautiful point here. I feel like we can't glance over.

[36:14] Tommy: Okay.

[36:15] Jimi: No. And actually, before we move away from it, like we are talking a lot about English American, like to me, this is the single most English show that exists. And that's not in the sense of like My Fair Lady where it feels like it's an exotic, you know, like picture or Mary Poppins. But like this show couldn't happen, couldn't be written anywhere.

[36:36] Tommy: But absolutely.

[36:37] Jimi: Like this is to me watching this, I'm like, this is England, like that kind of middle class England.

[36:43] Tommy: Yeah.

[36:44] Jimi: No, that I feel between some of it's like unspoken panto roots. And I also think some of the ways that I notice more so now, but even in the past that like English people kind of breeze past a particular kind of extra country racism that seems really embedded in the show.

[36:56] Tommy: Like, yeah, I see that in some big, big ways.

[36:58] Jimi: Yeah. To me, like, again, like that's another reason why I'm just I am baffled by it's so successful in the States, because it to me, it feels like alien. Like if I was watching that, as an American, I'd be like, this is what the hell.

[37:12] Tommy: I think it's I think it's because it's successful in a time when musical theater was bridging because like we're we're in the 70s to 80s here, right? So we're, we're in the like, the hair to cats gap.

[37:22] Jimi: Yeah, okay.

[37:23] Tommy: Which I think this does, right? It kind of has that kind of God's Spelly, free love roots to it. But then through its adaptation can be big and disco and Las Vegas and singers and like, happen to like, take us from one to the other, like in a very American way.

[37:39] Jimi: So numbers focus that actually you're not no one's really paying attention to what the narrator is saying. It is as you know, it is as and pardon me, but as like plot agnostic as cats.

[37:50] Tommy: Yeah, completely.

[37:51] Jimi: But this is I get like, I said I wasn't gonna do it. Tommy, don't make me do it. Like, I think this is this is why I do prefer cats to Joseph, because cats is like, unashamedly. Like without plot, I obviously there is a story, but it's without plot.

[38:06] Tommy: Joseph tries to have a moral.

[38:08] Jimi: Right. Joseph really goes for a full book musical, like sung through moment here. Like, even even with just and like, the Bible, a book of like parables, intended to be intended to be interpreted and embodied the book that is meant to be used that way. Right. Yeah. Just taking the story of Joseph. What the fuck am I supposed to learn?

[38:27] Tommy: Yeah. From this story. Exactly. Kill your brother to survive a famine, because he might just accidentally survive. Like.

[38:35] Jimi: Jealousy's a bitch. I don't know. You know, get back at your siblings by framing them for theft.

[38:41] Tommy: Yeah. Like nowhere. You know, fall in love with your slave owners, but make sure you sleep with their wife. But in an accidental way, like.

[38:50] Jimi: Yeah. Wearing rainbows outside of June does work. I don't know. And like, those are the morals of the interior story. And then the morals of the exterior story are either like, you make your own destiny, which is a bullshit moral.

[39:02] Tommy: But also not at all, because it's God gave him his destiny.

[39:06] Jimi: I should say not like, not you manufacture your own destiny, but you dream, you imagine your destiny and it manifests itself. Right. Or like,

[40:35] Jimi: Everyone has a purpose, and sometimes it's gonna suck. Like, there's not a real good, feel-good, you know, Fortune Cookie-style moral to take away from any part of the show! Nothing happens. Like, when people say nothing happens in Cats, and I could speak for 20 minutes about what happens in Cats, in this one, obviously I can say what happens, because there is, yes, there is a story.

[41:01] Tommy: Right. But why? It's so disjointed, and it is also predicated on the idea that you know what's gonna happen next!

[41:09] Jimi: Exactly! Baffling. It's bonkers! It's absolutely baffling. But hey, but also, this fun quote from Genius. It's really good. Who'd ever have looked up the Genius annotations of Joseph?

[41:18] Tommy: I love looking up Genius annotations when they're not, like, vetted by Dave Molloy or Lin-Manuel Miranda.

[41:24] Jimi: Yeah, exactly. 'Cause they're just random, they're, you know, they're me when I was in high school, like, really excited to give my particular take on musical theatre on the internet!

[41:31] Tommy: Yeah. There's a highlighting of the listing of the colours, and a wonderful user says, the whole cast will spend entire bus rides, showers, home rooms, free periods, lunch blocks, and time backstage just trying to remember all these damn colours!

[41:57] Jimi: It has 13 upvotes.

[41:58] Tommy: Yeah, and you can't lie, it's so true.

[42:02] Jimi: Well, I do wanna, you know, I like, this is probably written by a high schooler, and I appreciate your addition to this. If we're gonna diagram this sentence, there's one way in which it says, this whole cast will spend entire showers trying to remember all these colours. Which, I mean, you know, I did, I understood theatre in high school, but it's a bold thing to put on the internet.

[42:25] Tommy: Well, you know, times have changed, Jimi. These cast, you know how close cast can get!

[42:29] Jimi: Oh god, I, man, it's so, it's fun to think about that for Hare, it's weird to think about that for Joseph.

[42:39] Tommy: For Joseph, absolutely. So hey, speaking of showers, let's talk about adaptations.

[42:45] Jimi: That was good, yeah.

[42:47] Tommy: Thank you. That's how you do it.

[44:19] Jimi: Let me just ride on my Segway.

[44:25] Tommy: See?

[44:48] Jimi: That's better. I saw a person on a Segway today in real life.

[44:55] Tommy: They were ticketing cars on the street in front of my building.

[44:58] Jimi: Get out of town!

[44:59] Tommy: You're public servants.

[45:00] Jimi: I do think that we, I think it is a diminutive term, but generally they're referred to as meter maids in America.

[45:06] Tommy: It's diminutive and it's like also, you know, it speaks to the gendering of jobs in both ways that are problematic.

[45:11] Jimi: Also, this person, you know, seemed very male identifying.

[45:16] Tommy: So meter maid is especially diminutive.

[45:25] Jimi: We call them parking attendants or traffic wardens.

[45:29] Tommy: These are better terms.

[45:30] Jimi: I like parking attendant. I will use that from now on. A parking attendant was on a Segway ticketing cars. Great.

[45:36] Tommy: Anyway, anyway, I saw a Segway today. Adaptations. I think I figured out my big problem with Andrew Lloyd Webber.

[45:41] Jimi: Oh my God.

[45:46] Tommy: This is, this is, hang on. I'm going to sit cross-legged so I can enjoy this. This is bold. Four years in the making. He's bad at picking things to adapt.

[45:57] Jimi: Okay.

[46:00] Tommy: So go on.

[46:05] Jimi: Okay. Joseph has like, no distinct morals, right? Cats, regardless of what you think of the final thing.

[46:15] Tommy: Right.

[46:16] Jimi: It's a book of poems.

[46:19] Tommy: It's a book of poems. Evita, and okay, hold on for a second, because I want to find a quote from Tim Rice, actually. But that is around this sort of thing. And I imagine these things happened, you know, in conversation with each other.

[46:39] Jimi: This is from a 1982 newspaper, the Herald Journal. So Tim Rice is talking about, there were a couple of protests outside of Joseph from like, religious fundamentalists, you know, you're destroying the Bible by having them wear cowboy hats while they do this thing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[46:58] Tommy: And kind of talks about some of the other times he's encountered things like this.

[47:02] Jimi: And he talks about Evita. Tim Rice says, he takes no strong political stances, although he and composer Andrew Lloyd Webber came in for ideological criticism over the musical Evita about Eva Peron. Quote, trendy liberal critics were frightened and in a way scared that they liked the show, Rice said over breakfast at the Beverly Wilshire Hotel. I felt they were concerned to distance themselves from Eva Peron. They blamed us for their, the Peron's misdeeds.

[47:32] Tommy: Tim Rice goes on to say in this article that he's not particularly religious, but enjoys adapting shows that are real or based on reality, talking about Superstar and Joseph, which because he did these things in Lloyd Webber's company, I am conflating these things.

[47:52] Jimi: There's a lot to unpack there. One, like qualifying the story of Joseph in the Bible as a real story is a big jump. But also there seems to be this like ideological thing about taking no political stances. And if you are, for example, elevating the story of Eva Peron on stage, you're taking a stance by giving that story a voice and you are owning their misdeeds and how you talk about them.

[48:30] Tommy: You might denounce them in the thing, but you don't get to be a neutral party in this topic by adapting it, right? Because you're making choices there. Unless you're like verbatim taking forward, you know, exactly what they said and putting it on stage. And even that is problematic. So like, even the idea to adapt the story of Evita is problematic, right?

[48:49] Jimi: I think Andrew Lloyd Webber has bad taste.

[48:56] Tommy: The frustrating thing about that, right, is I'd say you come extremely close. But you can't argue that the passion is a good thing to adapt.

[49:10] Jimi: I can argue that, but like.

[49:12] Tommy: Because it's the most adapted story of all time.

[49:15] Jimi: Sure.

[49:16] Tommy: But the tact at least Rice is taking in this. And I've seen, you know, it is hard to find Webber talking about his religion. They're not adapting it because they feel some deep biblical connection or, you know, God given duty to bring the story out there.

[49:34] Jimi: Like Rice says, he's adapting it because it's quote unquote real.

[49:43] Tommy: But he's not religious. But he's doing this story where, you know, the man talks to the deity in the sky. They don't think through the things they're adapting, right?

[49:56] Jimi: I think Superstar is an easy choice because exactly as you said, it is so adapted, right? I think their motivations for these things are not out of the things I want in my art, right? Giving a voice to the voiceless, showcasing underappreciated things, examining interesting stories.

[50:20] Tommy: I think the things they choose are like, well, this will make a good show or this will be easy or get people in the seats. Not because it is so particularly suited to its content. Not that they don't do great things with that. You know, Superstar is revolutionary in its concept album structure. Like don't get me wrong on this stuff.

[50:43] Jimi: And even Cats, as much as it's bizarre and weird, is a huge step in this kind of performance art. The mechanics of their theatricality is not the thing I have the problem with. It's their choice of source material or adaptation material or what they want to be artists about, right?

[51:05] Tommy: Yeah.

[51:06] Jimi: It's almost to the point where it makes them feel less like artists. And I don't want to gatekeep here with that. But if you're just going to trace someone else's thing and entirely do your own thing on top of it, why are you tracing that person's thing in the first place?

[51:25] Tommy: Like imagine the fantasticness of Superstar or Cats even, but with an original story or a climactic plot. Or imagine, you know, the catchy songs of Joseph with a moral attached to them, right?

[51:45] Jimi: It's weird because like, I think, yeah, I think that really fits for Joseph, but I actually, because I think Evita is really good in the way that it straddles that line of controversy.

[51:59] Tommy: Sure.

[52:00] Jimi: No, I feel that. And I like Evita too. It's weird because they had a conversation about it. I can't remember who sat on which side.

[52:08] Tommy: I think Andrew Lloyd Webber wanted it to deify.

[52:14] Jimi: Like exonerate.

[52:15] Tommy: Yeah, he kind of wanted it to be this glamorous. And then I think it was, I think this is the way around. Listen to our podcast on it. We get it right in that. But Tim Rice or the other one said, no, they were a horrible person.

[52:28] Jimi: I actually think I might be getting it the wrong way around. But there is that tension there, which I do appreciate.

[52:34] Tommy: And perhaps Evita is a less good example in that sort of thing. Because I guess like even something like Phantom, right, which, again, is a really good story to adapt.

[52:47] Jimi: Maury Yeston did it very well.

[52:52] Tommy: Sure.

[52:53] Jimi: But I'd agree that there's less substance in terms of the story adaptation. And like the things that they adapted out of that story are like about a sexual predator who like uses his foibles to get what he wants.

[53:12] Tommy: Like the things that appealed to them in that story are not good things.

[53:19] Jimi: All capitals underlined. Bad taste.

[53:21] Tommy: I mean, why is that the story you want to elevate?

[53:29] Jimi: I think the best argument to agree that Andrew Lloyd Webber has bad taste is to look at the logo for the new production of Cinderella. Have you ever seen it?

[53:38] Tommy: Oh, I'm scared.

[53:40] Jimi: Oh my God. I cannot wait for this live reaction that we're going to get.

[53:45] Tommy: OK, please just Google Andrew Lloyd Webber 2019 Cinderella.

[53:49] Jimi: Let's see.

[53:50] Tommy: Oh my God.

[53:51] Jimi: It looks like a butt.

[53:54] Tommy: It looks like it's been made on paint.

[53:57] Jimi: Like the spray painty one?

[53:58] Tommy: Yes, Jimi. And like she's spray painting her dress? Like, what is that?

[54:06] Jimi: Look at it! That's the logo! He has bad taste. You can't not look at that, and him signing off on that.

[54:15] Tommy: ‘We haven't even mentioned Starlight Express. ‘Yeah, we have. Us two, we've never discussed Starlight Express. ‘It might hold a soft spot in your heart, but we need to remember that Andrew Lloyd Webber was pissy that he wasn't allowed to adapt Thomas the Tank Engine, and so wrote his own roller-skating train musical. ‘Yeah. ‘Taste? Like, high art? ‘Yeah, I'm not gonna argue. I'm not gonna argue for Andrew Lloyd Webber's taste. ‘And I know, and I know I have, like, crossed the line into artistic gatekeeping, and that's fine. And I will own that. But, like, when there are limited stages and limited opportunities for voices, like, it's a zero-sum game. And, like, you know, they're gonna revive—and maybe this will be a great segue—but they have plans to revive Joseph in 2021.

[55:08] Jimi: ‘Yeah. I mean, right, this is why it's tricky with Joseph. Because it started off as a 15-minute choral piece. ‘Right. ‘Right? ‘Yeah. It started off as a nothing. ‘Then they got successful, and people were like, you should do more with this! And then they had to be like, okay. And they're extrapolating from nothing. Right? ‘Right. ‘Now, the decision that they should have made was, that can't work. We can't do that. We'll write something else, but that isn't going to work. ‘We'll let it live along like Sondheim's Saturday Night does. ‘Right! Or just, like, it's this really good elementary, primary school musical that can be performed for 30 minutes. ‘And hey, did you know it's by Andrew Lloyd Webber? ‘Exactly. But, you know, capitalism's a bitch. And they wanted to make money. And that is why it's a show about nothing.

[56:06] Tommy: ‘Yeah. Well, here's, I think, the difficulty in why I like it less than Cats. And I think I said earlier why I think it is actively destructive. It is more than a show about nothing. ‘I've worked miracles. ‘Cats generally brings people joy. Or, at the worst, confusion. Some outliers like me rage in anger. But I think we are few and far between.

[56:37] Jimi: And because we have, like, deep opinions about this sort of stuff. I don't think Cats perpetuates any kind of, like, bad omens or stereotypes or destructive feelings or things that I feel are bad to the world. You know? ‘Yeah. ‘And that, to me, net good, generally. ‘Yeah. ‘Right? Joseph—I mean, we can start with Benjamin Calypso and go on from there. ‘Right. ‘But, like, Joseph is problematic, you know? And it is problematic in a way that people don't talk about. Like, I searched for a long time for a scholarly discussion, or even a mention, of how racist the song Benjamin Calypso is in this show.

[57:18] Tommy: ‘Yep. I did the exact same thing. That's really funny, actually. ‘And, like, you'll find footnotes and local reviews of community theater productions. ‘Yeah. ‘That's about it. ‘Yeah. And a lot of the time it's just like, yeah, but, you know, like, that's the tone that is always adopted. ‘Right. There's, like, a hand-waviness to it. And, like, it's all tied together. It stems out of their—and they were young, yes, but laziness of writing styles. Like, they kind of, like, play Wheel of Fortune with musical genres in this show.

[58:03] Jimi: ‘Yeah. Totally. ‘Right? This song's a country song. Why? Eh! You know? This song's like a soft shoe number. ‘Exactly. There is no reason. ‘Right? This one's French because berets rhymes with cannon days, and that's how we can justify it. ‘Yeah. ‘Like, and then we get to this calypso song, which—and I think this is what I mean by, like, the very particular extra-country racism of English people. ‘Mm-hmm. ‘Like, I think—well, I like to believe Americans would be faster to see a bunch of white people on stage performing a calypso song as appropriative and racist.

[58:26] Tommy: And I see something in the English artistic thing that, like, allowed, you know, the American Indians in Peter Pan to exist as, you know, red-faced stereotypes for as long as they have. It's that same kind of, like, English colonialism appropriation that would, you know, make standard middle-aged English audiences not uncomfortable with this Benjamin Calypso song.

[58:58] Jimi: ‘Yeah, and I certainly think for a long, long time. What I would say is they've definitely got wise for the most recent production. ‘Yes. ‘So, yeah, one of the director's biggest things was fixing Benjamin Calypso. Now, the way that they've done it, whether you will say this is fixing or not, they've set it in the Notting Hill Carnival.

[59:29] Tommy: ‘Okay. ‘Do you know anything about that? ‘Nope. ‘Okay. ‘You said words that I understand apart. ‘Right. Well, you know Notting Hill, the place in London. ‘The place in London. ‘Right. ‘And I understand the concept of a carnival. ‘So, yes, basically that. So, I don't really know the main origins of it. I think there is a specific reason why it's A, in Notting Hill and B, at a certain time of year. ‘Okay.

[59:52] Jimi: ‘And I think it's to do with the population of Trinidadian, Caribbean people coming into London. But I don't know any sort of specifics beyond that. And that will be some reading that I will be doing and we can all do together. But anyway, it's like a stalwart of British culture. ‘Okay. ‘I mean, it's something that is really celebrated and it's a beautiful, diverse melting point. It looks like the Rio Carnival in a much smaller scale. Do you know how like that's basically it?

[1:00:26] Tommy: ‘Got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. ‘And in London, in cold London. ‘Right. Yeah. ‘The costumes don't change, but, you know, the temperature does. ‘But the weather does. Got it. ‘So the new production has set it like that. So it's not specifically, we are pastiching calypso music.

[1:00:56] Jimi: ‘Got it. This is a celebration of many cultures. ‘Celebration melting pot. So I think they don't do the accent and banana, banana, banana in the background is no longer banana, banana, banana. It is la la, as it absolutely should be. So that's what they've done.

[1:01:10] Tommy: ‘Sure. ‘Obviously, I think that's like the best you could possibly do. ‘I mean, if you exclude the best you could possibly do is to not do the show. ‘Exactly. Well, yeah. Or not do that song. ‘Right. I mean, then it becomes, it's hard to do. Then why do the show? ‘Right. Exactly. Yeah, totally. ‘Right. ‘But I think that's, yeah, that's the best way that you can adapt that and, in inverted commas, fix it.

[1:01:40] Jimi: ‘I do think, and I think this is a journey I'm going on. I think two years ago, I would have agreed and been like, good. And now I'm like, I'm not okay with that. I'm really not. Like, you still have the lyric, Benjamin is honest as the coconuts. Like, what a ridiculous, and like, when you seed it in this, you know, Caribbean pastiche of, like, this is Black culture, like, and we're going to sing, you know, this very simplistic, and especially a lot of productions from the 90s to the 2000s, like casting the one Black brother and making the one Black brother sing this one Black song.

[1:02:26] Tommy: ‘Exactly. ‘Is, you know, the assumed whiteness of Broadway coming back and kicking in. It's like, oh, you think you're being not racist, but it's still racist. Like, you know, and the fact that the huge problem I have with it is that this show is so popular with so many people, plenty of people who I'm sure, like, assume they are anti-racist and assume they've entered these things. And like, the more I learn, the more I know those are terrible assumptions to make about anyone, including yourself.

[1:02:53] Jimi: But like, that this has sat right in front of so many people for so long, and that we can't find good scholarly discussions about the problematic past of Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat. ‘I mean, it's there right in the Donny Osmond film, like, the use of brownface, like, within minutes, it's there.

[1:03:09] Tommy: ‘We, so my boyfriend was actually playing Animal Crossing because he was not very pleased to watch Joseph, which is the sentiment I shared. And so, like, watched the credits, saw that Richard Attenborough was going to be in it, saw him be the teacher walk up on stage, and then, like, looked down for a second, and then looked up, and then we were in the desert, which I'm sure is confusing enough. And Richard Attenborough was sitting there, and he was like, who's that? And I said, that's Richard Attenborough. And we had a moment where, like, I think it's generous to call it bronzer. I think it's generous to say that, like, Richard Attenborough went tanning for a minute.

[1:03:47] Jimi: ‘Right. No, it's brownface. ‘It's brownface. It's, you know. ‘There's no ifs, ands, or buts. And it continues throughout the rest of the... ‘It's all over the thing. And the fact that, like, when did that movie come out? 93?

[1:04:04] Tommy: ‘Yeah, something like that. ‘Like, 1993! And people were just like, yeah, okay, uh-huh. This is a normal thing to do. This is a fine, non-problematic thing to do. Like, in a world where we think we have, like, established that blackface is wrong.

[1:04:18] Jimi: ‘Right. ‘This is still a thing that we're okay with. ‘Right. ‘You know, and like, one of the things I am not well-educated enough to talk around is some of the Egyptian portrayal in it.

[1:04:31] Tommy: ‘Yes, I find that really tricky. I really do. ‘And I feel uninformed and ignorant, and I couldn't find—I'm still looking for, that's a better way to phrase that, you know, something to tell me how to feel about that.

[1:04:48] Jimi: ‘For sure. ‘'Cause, like, and the discussion I had around it was like, I do have this vision in my brain of ancient Egypt is what Egypt is, right? What contemporary Egypt is.

[1:05:05] Tommy: ‘Right. ‘And it was during a break, and I honestly had this conversation with my boyfriend, and I was like, and I feel like that's probably problematic, and is certainly informed by how I was taught world history in school.

[1:05:16] Jimi: ‘Yeah. ‘And I think the reason it's problematic is because I don't picture contemporary Greece the same way I picture ancient Greece.

[1:05:27] Tommy: ‘Oh, okay, uh-huh. Well, I think the other one as well is ancient China.

[1:05:36] Jimi: ‘Sure, yeah. Like, I'd see them as different places, or different moments, or a progression in history. Whereas, like, I think about Egypt, and I think about the Sphinx. And I'm sure part of it is because the Sphinx is—

[1:05:44] Tommy: ‘It's a huge tourist attraction, absolutely. ‘Yeah. And an interesting thing to teach fourth graders, right?

[1:05:49] Jimi: ‘Yes, but I don't think— ‘Look at this crazy thing. ‘Yeah.

[1:05:52] Tommy: ‘But then, you know, to omit, like, I couldn't tell you a dang thing about contemporary Egypt.

[1:05:57] Jimi: ‘Exactly. ‘Right?

[1:05:59] Tommy: ‘Yeah. ‘And, like, you know, I'm finding my own missed pieces in this about representation. And it is, you know, this is also the huge problem—I put this in and I'll bring it up again—but Joseph is our version of Mr. Byrne's A Post-Electric Play, because it is this, like, adaptation after adaptation after adaptation after adaptation of this thing that maybe probably happened, but through so many societal archaic lenses that it bears just a passing resemblance to its previous self and is so mired in, you know, contemporary assumptions of the world.

[1:06:43] Jimi: But, like, where—and this is the insidious thing about Joseph—the average theater-goer, even the well-informed theater-goer, could see Mr. Byrne's A Post-Electric Play on Thursday night and completely understand and see Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat on Friday night and think it's a cute little fun play.

[1:07:01] Tommy: ‘Yeah. ‘And, like, that is what I think is—the popularity of Joseph as an adaptation is insidious, is really messy, and is why I, you know, am finding I am more frustrated with it than Cats, because it is actively destructive in its existence.

[1:07:22] Jimi: ‘Yeah, I fully agree, because that's the thing, like, Cats is fantasy, Cats is out-and-out fantasy.

[1:07:27] Tommy: ‘So devoid and sets itself up and knows what it is.

[1:07:30] Jimi: ‘Yeah, it's in an alternate universe. ‘Yeah.

[1:07:35] Tommy: ‘And, like, really, Joseph is as well, but it doesn't—

[1:07:38] Jimi: It doesn't say it is.

[1:07:40] Tommy: Right.

[1:07:41] Jimi: It passes itself off as, like, a, you know, 'Oh, remember this? The story?'

[1:07:44] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:07:47] Jimi: 'That happened, for real?'

[1:07:49] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:07:49] Jimi: 'Because it's in the Bible, which is real?'

[1:07:53] Tommy: Yep.

[1:07:53] Jimi: 'Sarcasm. Sarcasm quote.'

[1:07:57] Tommy: Yeah, uh-huh.

[1:07:59] Jimi: 'I can hear them.'

[1:08:01] Tommy: 'Anyway, Catholic school went great!'

[1:08:01] Jimi: 'I don't know if I've told you this in nine years.'

[1:08:04] Tommy: 'Yeah, I know, it really works.'

[1:08:06] Jimi: 'It's beautiful.'

[1:08:06] Tommy: 'It really, it helped. Man.'

[1:08:09] Jimi: 'You've converted me.'

[1:08:09] Tommy: 'Oh boy.'

[1:08:14] Jimi: 'I should be kinder, too. I had plenty of great teachers in Catholic school.'

[1:08:14] Tommy: 'Absolutely.'

[1:08:18] Jimi: 'Taught me wonderful, wonderful things and didn't know the harm they were doing.'

[1:08:20] Tommy: 'Some of my best friends teach at Catholic school, and, yeah, see.'

[1:08:20] Jimi: 'Right.'

[1:08:20] Tommy: 'Yes.'

[1:08:20] Jimi: 'Yes.'

[1:08:23] Tommy: 'Um, and, you know, it's 2020, it's time to wake up.'

[1:08:26] Jimi: 'To wake up.'

[1:08:29] Tommy: 'It's gorgeous.'

[1:08:29] Jimi: 'Thank you.'

[1:08:29] Tommy: 'Thank you, Josh, for that brief moment.'

[1:08:36] Jimi: 'Man, that's how, like, I've, if there's any, if there's any character I've felt more connected with during quarantine, it is Pierre.'

[1:08:43] Tommy: 'You know, Pierre, I know.'

[1:08:43] Jimi: 'All I do is sit and read and sit and read and drink.'

[1:08:50] Tommy: 'Yeah, yeah, oh my god, perfect, yeah.'

[1:08:50] Jimi: 'Hours at my screen, you know, I've found the, uh, number of the devil it is like.'

[1:08:56] Tommy: 'Yeah.'

[1:08:56] Jimi: 'Yeah.'

[1:08:56] Tommy: 'Absolutely, no, absolutely, um, and that's all we'll say on that before we get into a big discussion about Comet again.'

[1:09:07] Jimi: 'Do you remember the good years in Canaan?'

[1:09:14] Tommy: 'The summers were endlessly gold.'

[1:09:14] Jimi: 'Mais oui.'

[1:09:25] Tommy: 'The fields were a patchwork of clover.'

[1:09:25] Jimi: 'The winters were never too cold.'

[1:09:37] Tommy: 'We strolled down the boulevard together.'

[1:09:37] Jimi: 'A promenade simply divine.'

[1:09:46] Tommy: 'Now the fields are dead and bare.'

[1:09:46] Jimi: 'No shot of eve anywhere.'

[1:09:55] Tommy: 'A matron may drink a bitter wine.'

[1:09:55] Jimi: 'Those Canaan days, we used to know, where have they gone, where is they gone?'

[1:10:12] Tommy: 'Hey!'

[1:10:12] Jimi: 'So obviously I was talking about, uh, Joseph being destructive. It's coming back!'

[1:10:19] Tommy: 'They're still doing it.'

[1:10:19] Jimi: 'Still doing it. Now, okay, so, weirdly, one of my last memories of theatre before it stopped...'

[1:10:29] Tommy: 'Yeah, in the before times.'

[1:10:29] Jimi: 'Yeah, uh, is the Joseph concert, which was, I think, like, mid-Feb.'

[1:10:38] Tommy: 'Yeah.'

[1:10:38] Jimi: 'Um, so, I find that quite weird. That is just, like, that is what's really kind of sitting in my head. Um, and I remember it happening because we, so the choir, um, that I'm with, we did a massive sing-through event and Joseph, uh, was the show that we did. So it was just, like, February was Joseph for me.'

[1:10:59] Tommy: 'Right, yeah.'

[1:10:59] Jimi: 'Um, in many, many ways, uh, and yeah, I remember watching clips and videos and things for this concert and just being, like...'

[1:11:08] Tommy: 'Yeah.'

[1:11:08] Jimi: 'For the first time, I feel like, because it was, um, Andy Mintus's husband, Michael Arden. It was Michael Arden who directed it.'

[1:11:19] Tommy: 'Right.'

[1:11:19] Jimi: 'Who we know is quite clued up.'

[1:11:27] Tommy: 'Yes, often. He has his foibles, but that's not a word. He has his problems, but...'

[1:11:33] Jimi: 'Right, quite clued up.'

[1:11:33] Tommy: 'Certainly, like, as directors go on Broadway, well-intentioned.'

[1:11:40] Jimi: 'Yes, yeah, that's a good way of phrasing it.'

[1:11:40] Tommy: 'Right? Um, and thinks with that brain. Now, ‘

[1:11:48] Jimi: 'Yeah.'

[1:11:48] Tommy: 'this was the first time I'd kind of seen anything of Joseph where I was like, this is a Joseph that almost, like, works.'

[1:11:56] Jimi: 'Yes, yeah.'

[1:11:56] Tommy: 'Basically, it was fully concert production with books.'

[1:12:03] Jimi: 'Which is great for it, especially because it's often presented in a pseudo-concert version anyway.'

[1:12:07] Tommy: 'Right, I mean, it's just like, it's a collection of numbers.'

[1:12:07] Jimi: 'Right.'

[1:12:12] Tommy: 'So yeah, semi-stage.'

[1:12:12] Jimi: 'Like the children's chorus in the background.'

[1:12:19] Tommy: 'Yeah, exactly, semi-stage. The choir was in the back, the orchestra was surrounding classic, partial costume, you know, like, implied costume, but not really.'

[1:12:27] Jimi: 'Right, yeah.'

[1:12:27] Tommy: 'And I think one of the things that I found that was key is that it was completely gender-blind in terms of casting, and things were rescored accordingly.'

[1:12:35] Jimi: 'Yep.'

[1:12:35] Tommy: 'And there was no…'

[1:12:44] Jimi: 'It just didn't feel like it mattered who you were.'

[1:12:53] Tommy: 'Yes, it was much more, you know, this word is loaded, but much more multicultural than a lot of productions.'

[1:12:57] Jimi: 'Yeah, it was a very diverse production, it was a very diverse production.'

[1:13:03] Tommy: 'Yep.'

[1:13:03] Jimi: 'And I remember watching it and being like, that is enjoyable, and I can enjoy that because I'm not being presented something.'

[1:13:12] Tommy: 'Right.'

[1:13:12] Jimi: 'It literally, it just kind of became about the fun, silly songs.'

[1:13:18] Tommy: 'Yeah, when I think it also helps that, like, this was, I believe, this was a 50th anniversary concert.'

[1:13:24] Jimi: 'It was, yeah.'

[1:13:24] Tommy: 'So it is a show, and this is a little masturbatory, but it is a show in celebration of itself, as opposed to its story.'

[1:13:31] Jimi: 'Mm-hmm.'

[1:13:31] Tommy: 'And like, there's something about that too, right? It's like Sondheim in concert, like, you're celebrating the work as its own thing, as opposed to fully celebrating the art that it is, in a good way.'

[1:13:44] Jimi: 'Yeah, like, I completely think that is, yeah, that's exactly it. It was just, you could just kind of come along, and if you know the songs, you're going to have a great time, because they're going to be performed by extremely talented people, for the most part.'

[1:14:02] Tommy: 'Exactly, yeah.'

[1:14:02] Jimi: 'So to me, I'm like, going forward, if you want to do Joseph, it's kind of like, lead by that example. Like, that way, it kind of works.'

[1:14:12] Tommy: 'It is, I am…'

[1:14:19] Jimi: 'And within that as well, like, I just have to showcase, just so I can put it in the show notes.'

[1:14:25] Tommy: 'Of course.'

[1:14:25] Jimi: 'Bonnie Milligan, who was in Head Over Heels, she sang those Canaan Days, and it wasn't rescored. That's a really good example, but they also, I mean, they had like Alex Newell, like, these people who are known for being incredible singers,'

[1:14:37] Tommy: 'That's fantastic.'

[1:14:37] Jimi: 'who just got to have an amazing time with this score.'

[1:14:45] Tommy: 'Sure, and it is fascinating to me, I've been tossing around, you know, who knows if I'll ever make a video again, but an idea for a video, around this idea of, like, what do we do when we come back? Because there has been these wonderful and great movements around, you know, like, the whole Dear White American Theatre movement,'

[1:15:02] Jimi: 'Yep.'

[1:15:02] Tommy: 'and if you haven't read Tonya Pinkin's, is that right?'

[1:15:14] Jimi: 'Yeah, Tonya, uh…'

[1:15:14] Tommy: 'If you haven't read Tonya Pinkin's like, open letter about some of this stuff, and like, the creation of these kind of, you know, diversity and inclusion committees and how it's bullshit, which I am with her.'

[1:15:27] Jimi: 'Yeah, that's again, been really eye-opening.'

[1:15:27] Tommy: 'We're part of a network that Tonya's on, and when BPN was having some discussions about like, oh, everyone's tweeting their message, what should we tweet? She chimed in with, you know, a hot and livid email about like, how dare you ask me, as if I am the token black person, what we should write about this thing? And it was spicy, and it's a lot of the same sentiment that she puts in that thing, and I see it in a way that I did not see it before.'

[1:15:58] Jimi: 'Yep.'

[1:15:58] Tommy: 'And in a way that I've been complicit with in some of the structures I've lived in before.'

[1:16:03] Jimi: 'Yeah.'

[1:16:03] Tommy: 'And so then the question, right, we have these great motivations, how do we come back?'

[1:16:09] Jimi: 'Totally.'

[1:16:09] Tommy: 'What do we do with these structures that we know exist? You know, how do we find the way to serve the wonderful things we're trying to create, while also, you know, recognizing that we have a lot to undo and a lot to unpack?'

[1:16:26] Jimi: 'And I, one of the thoughts I have had is like, if you're doing any revival of anything, you absolutely must unpack the systems of power that exist and are complacent in it, and see if there's anything you can do with your production to dismantle it. Do you cast it gender blind? Do, you know, are you saying something by, you know, casting it with a person of color in an interesting or important way?'

[1:16:49] Tommy: 'Exactly.'

[1:16:49] Jimi: 'You know, Denver had in the before times an all-black production of Oklahoma, before the bloody version of Oklahoma.'

[1:17:00] Tommy: 'Yes.'

[1:17:00] Jimi: 'It was a fascinating little brain bug just to think about. It was good. And like, no revival should happen without that thought.'

[1:17:07] Tommy: 'Right.'

[1:17:07] Jimi: 'Which, you know, Hugh Jackman's going to show up in The Music Man and he's going to be white and it's all going to be this celebration of small-town Americana and it's going to be bullshit. Like, we're not going to get there right away and it's going to be frustrating and we'll complain about it in two years.'

[1:17:21] Tommy: 'Yeah, and I think that's the thing, is it's like there, like there's obviously, there's the fallout of the stuff that is being queued up. And it is, it's just a case of like riding that wave and not forgetting.'

[1:17:26] Jimi: 'Right.'

[1:17:26] Tommy: 'The now.'

[1:17:33] Jimi: 'And, and like acknowledging that we have this belief that theatre kind of exists in these ebbs and flows. Like you can't just put on a show tomorrow. You can't Mickey and Judy it. Not on Broadway right now. Not, not, you know, because there are systems in place. Doesn't mean you shouldn't try. Doesn't mean we couldn't figure out how to do that, but that's how the system has worked before. And that's the only way the system knows to work. And not to justify it, but an acknowledgement of that is important if you want to unpack that sort of stuff. And so I do think as problematic as Joseph is, and as much as some of those problems I'm sure still exist in this concert. I'm sure Benjamin Calypso's in it. You know, like I'm sure it's, you know, performed by a, you know, black performer, which feels a little tokenizing, even surrounded by more people of colour.'

[1:18:23] Tommy: 'Even with lyric changes, you know, it doesn't make it not tokenizing. We're, you know, inching forward and it is, you know, this is, it's that Doctor Who thing. Like you've got to acknowledge the good things and the bad things and denounce the bad things and recognize the good things.'

[1:18:42] Jimi: 'Anyway, I lost the plot.'

[1:18:47] Tommy: 'No, I kind of get it. I think that's the kind of tricky thing about Joseph is like, it is a really fun, happy time, right? Like that is, to me, that's what it is. There's a bloody megamix at the end, right? That's what it is. It's just good fun. And I think that is really the main thing. Any director going forward with Joseph specifically, I feel like that's what they have to present is unabashed celebratory fun.'

[1:19:28] Jimi: 'I do have a question for you, which won't have an answer.'

[1:19:35] Tommy: 'Okay, one of those.'

[1:19:37] Jimi: 'Yeah, I've had this thought recently that escapism might be dead, or at least needs to take a nap for a little bit.'

[1:19:43] Tommy: 'Yeah, I had a conversation with a friend about this. I think the term at the moment is toxic positivity.'

[1:19:57] Jimi: 'I like that. Okay, sure.'

[1:20:02] Tommy: 'I'm still working this out, because I don't know if I do like that, because I understand where that comes from.'

[1:20:16] Jimi: 'I'm surprised we're talking about this actually, because we just had a conversation the other day.'

[1:20:24] Tommy: 'I understand where that comes from, about the idea of people feel things, and just being told it's all good, don't worry about it, just keep smiling, keep on trucking. That kind of thing can be hard for people, because sometimes it's really difficult to do that.'

[1:20:44] Jimi: 'Right, and people deserve their feelings in a way that is true to them.'

[1:20:48] Tommy: 'A hundred percent. I don't think having a positive mindset, or training yourself to having a positive mindset, flies in the face of that.'

[1:21:03] Jimi: 'And I'm purely speaking from my own experience here, this is the journey that I've gone on, specifically in this.'

[1:21:11] Jimi: At the start of this time, I was not in a positive headspace.

[1:21:15] Tommy: Right, I think that's, I would, I would sympathize and empathize with that too.

[1:21:19] Jimi: I do, and I mean, like, that's, you know, to, to, like, that's hopefulness, to maybe oversimplify, but, right? But I do wonder, you know, I guess my question is a little more nuanced, because it's fine for, I absolutely agree, if, if, if your world is positive attitude right now, and that's what you need, and, you know, find the joy in the moment, and you choose escapism for a moment, absolutely valid. You know, that's mental health, that's, you know, mental hygiene, right? That's stuff we should all be doing.

[1:21:56] Jimi: Because our art form has to be collaborative and takes time and money and space and choice around that, there is, you know, I guess the, the, the part my mind is grappling with, like, there has to be some care taken if you're providing a moment of escapism, because you're taking up space that could be used for analysis or critique or leaning in and that sort of stuff. You know, and it is this question we're going to have to face in the coming year or so, right? Can we do the Music Man? Even, you know, let's, let's, like, well, that's the problem. Can you ignore what's happening outside for two hours to go and watch the Music Man?

[1:22:44] Tommy: Again, it's interesting, because we always pull it back to Comet.

[1:22:52] Jimi: The only musical there is.

[1:22:55] Tommy: I'm so happy to live in that little world.

[1:22:58] Jimi: There is a musical, right, that openly says, we're shutting the doors. And you're going to enjoy this story, right, that exists as this story. And on the flat surface, that's what Comet is. Comet is literally a retelling of a story, right? But the author has held up a magnifying glass to the, I don't know, the reticule at the door that is allowing you to peer outside and reflect on everything.

[1:23:42] Tommy: So it's, you're not escaping and you're not going away. It's like, it's almost like a, like a meditation vibe where you're going in and you're processing the life that you're leading amidst this story.

[1:23:59] Jimi: Right. But like, that's different from this. Sorry. Yeah. So what I mean by that is, because again, I think this is a difficult example, but something like Oklahoma. Oklahoma was written in the lands of escapist theatre, do you know what I mean? It is the golden age, right, where, you know, the book was to tell a story. Like, that's what they were doing. They were not, there was no morals. And yet we've just seen this production that tells the exact same story, but allows you to think. And I think that's it. I think it's like, you've got the material. What you need to do is be smart with your handling of that material.

[1:24:55] Jimi: Like, I think this is my struggle with it. So like, let's say 2021 Joseph is coming up. It's slated to be this Noah Galvin basic idea of production, right? It's just a resetting of the same. Well, it already exists, the production. It's just finished a tour, a national tour. Well, not just finished, but you know what I mean. And we've seen most of it. It is generally escapist, I would clarify, I would classify it as, right? The show's not holding up any big magnifying glasses to contemporary social issues. It might be doing smaller things to unpack some of the previous problems with Joseph, but isn't like, you know, drawing straight social commentary on, you know, racism in the United States, as an example. But it's going to take up space.

[1:25:47] Tommy: So.

[1:25:48] Jimi: Is that okay? I think, again, weirdly with this production of Joseph. So I know a lot of people that saw the tour and a lot of intelligent people who shun that kind of theatre, that kind of escapist nonsense theatre have seen it. And actually, one of the things that they said was, it's so distinctly, like, queer in its presentation. It is out and out gay camp.

[1:26:25] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:26:26] Jimi: And what the kind of message and the takeaway that they got from that is the idea of celebration and the idea of oneness and festivity. And there's, I think there's always a place for that.

[1:26:48] Tommy: Sure. Yeah.

[1:26:49] Jimi: And like, then you, you know, representation on stage is revolutionary in all of its forms.

[1:26:55] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:26:56] Jimi: Whether it's queer representation or black representation or, you know, female representation, all this stuff.

[1:27:01] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:27:02] Jimi: Right. Interesting. So I just think, like, it's the duality. Like, you can't ever have one thing. You know what I mean? And I think the same thing needs to needs to be for theatre.

[1:27:14] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:27:16] Jimi: Because I think you do need breathing space. And I think you do need that meditation. Like, you do need that meditative time where you can watch something that doesn't tell you what to think. It's not saying, here is your issue. This is the issue that we're talking about. Right. That is more celebratory and that allows you to think, OK, I love this. I'm having a wonderful time. Why am I having a wonderful time? Is it because X, Y, Z? And from that, you can get thoughts. It's just, I don't know, I think for anything, and maybe because I'm doing a lot of yoga, but you need.

[1:27:53] Tommy: Sure.

[1:27:54] Jimi: You need balance. Right. Like, that's the eternal thing. It never works. And it's something that we've always had. Now, have the scales maybe tilted one certain way? Sure. Potentially. But I think certainly, you know, before times, pre-before times, they were tilting to the side that was, hey, theater's a really good platform here.

[1:28:17] Tommy: Right.

[1:28:18] Jimi: Well, this is the eternal pendulum. I mean, we see it, you know, it's always been the discussion between West Side Story and Music Man in 71.

[1:28:26] Tommy: Was that the Tonys?

[1:28:27] Jimi: Yeah. Where the Music Man won over West Side Story, this revolutionary piece dealing with racism in the United States. Or, sorry, Music Man won over West Side Story. Is that what I said?

[1:28:36] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:28:38] Jimi: Where, like, Music Man is this, like, whiteness, like, small town. And, like, hey, surprise, 2021, we're probably going to end up with a Broadway with a revival of West Side Story and a revival of Music Man at the same time. Again, it is interesting to watch this tension. And I guess you're right, the balance between it all.

[1:28:55] Tommy: It is also fascinating to me, in this, you know, Mr. Burns-ish way, like, a queer production of Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat is such an adaptation of an adaptation of an adaptation with a new message of an adaptation, like, to the point where is it its original thing anymore?

[1:29:18] Jimi: I mean, I think, like, overt racism aside, the Donny Osmond presentation is distinctly queer.

[1:29:29] Tommy: It's fair.

[1:29:31] Jimi: I mean, the story, like, the way, the story that Andrew Lloyd Webber has told is, like, the joy and celebration of wearing a beautiful coat.

[1:29:43] Tommy: Right.

[1:29:44] Jimi: Right? Absolutely. There's nothing more. And celebrating positivity in the face of complete.

[1:29:51] Tommy: Right.

[1:29:52] Jimi: And there's no love story. There's no, you know, any sex that is nearly approached is instantly denounced. Right. And it's, you know, you've got this female telling the story of this guy.

[1:30:09] Tommy: Right.

[1:30:11] Jimi: It's so, it's really, really. It feels really queer. And.

[1:30:16] Tommy: Difficult to articulate.

[1:30:21] Jimi: Like, because let's just like, you know, not Benjamin Calypso, because that is racist. But.

[1:30:26] Tommy: Sure.

[1:30:27] Jimi: Those Canaan Days is a flamboyant French pastiche. I mean, that's the thing. Pastiche in general is born in camp. The whole Potiphar number. I mean, there's a, I couldn't figure out what it was because it was one of those unlabeled YouTube videos. But there's a 1972 recording of this show. Pre West End. It has to be. Right. Or at least the YouTube video says 1972. And that's all it says. So I know nothing. Right. But it seems pretty close to the photos I see. There's a male narrator and there's a lot of shirtlessness. More so.

[1:31:00] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:31:02] Jimi: And the whole like Potiphar number is all the brothers in, you know, pseudo Egyptian garb without shirts and the weird line line cloths. And it's like a cane and soft shoe number. And they're all like linking arms and sitting down next to each other. And it looks really freaking gay.

[1:31:21] Tommy: Gay.

[1:31:22] Jimi: Right. Like, there's something all about that. It's fascinating. And I think that's why, like, the extension of the 2019, sorry, the 2020 concert.

[1:31:31] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:31:32] Jimi: It was because I'm like, you know, we're now just reaching out where we've extended that even further, where it's just this kind of like pansexual melodrama. Like, it doesn't.

[1:31:41] Tommy: Right.

[1:31:42] Jimi: Yeah. It literally means nothing now. And it's just joy and camp. But it's so.

[1:31:49] Tommy: It's so.

[1:31:50] Jimi: Yeah. Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice didn't intend any of that.

[1:31:57] Tommy: Unequivocally.

[1:31:58] Jimi: Unequivocally. But is it ingrained in who they are? Because literally.

[1:32:04] Tommy: No, but literally.

[1:32:05] Jimi: Evita. Yeah. Sunset Boulevard. Phantom. Like, in a weird kind of way, Jesus Christ Superstar, but maybe less so.

[1:32:15] Tommy: Sure.

[1:32:16] Jimi: Maybe between Judas and Jesus. But. Like, camp is who they are. Like, camp is what they do.

[1:32:22] Tommy: I think.

[1:32:23] Jimi: I think we're talking cart and horse, though. I think they do camp because they're raised from the pantomime upbringings of English.

[1:32:31] Tommy: I'm not saying.

[1:32:33] Jimi: I'm not saying they're writing it as a celebration of queer culture. Not at all. But I think it's all they can do is to write that because it's to say anything that Tim Rice touches is camp.

[1:32:46] Tommy: Right.

[1:32:47] Jimi: But that's the thing, is like, now Joseph, this 2021 Joseph, is going to be, as described, a celebration of queer culture.

[1:32:56] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:32:57] Jimi: Was not written as a celebration of queer culture. But.

[1:33:02] Tommy: Like, that's fascinating to me.

[1:33:04] Jimi: Yeah. Like, that's, you know, it's the same way that I'm baffled that the Rodgers and Hammerstein organization at all approved of Bloody Oklahoma.

[1:33:12] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:33:13] Jimi: Like, because they're so on top of authorial intent. Right. For sure. Like, militant about it. And the fact that that, you know, I don't know what happened behind closed doors there, but there had to be a discussion about that.

[1:33:25] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:33:26] Jimi: Right. You know, this is a different version of that. This is a laissez faire. Like, I don't think Lloyd Webber is like, yes, we're going to make a queer version of it.

[1:33:35] Tommy: Right.

[1:33:36] Jimi: No, it's someone else at this idea. And he's like, he sees money and he's like, OK, great.

[1:33:40] Tommy: I don't know, though. Again, like it's an over the rainbow. These girls take off their shoes and hand them to Andrew Lloyd Webber and then they glide off on a moon like.

[1:33:56] Jimi: You're conflating your conflating camp and queer. And I think this is important.

[1:34:01] Tommy: Right. Camp is not inherently queer.

[1:34:04] Jimi: Queer has taken control of camp.

[1:34:08] Tommy: Right.

[1:34:10] Jimi: But the order is important.

[1:34:11] Tommy: Right.

[1:34:12] Jimi: Because camp comes from these pantomime things.

[1:34:15] Tommy: But this is what I mean is that it's still like a celebratory facet of queer culture.

[1:34:25] Jimi: But it's it's queer. There's a subtle but important difference between a celebratory aspect of queer culture and queer culture celebrating.

[1:34:33] Tommy: Right.

[1:34:34] Jimi: Yes. No. But that's that's what I mean. So I'm not saying that's what it is. It's not like there isn't.

[1:34:42] Jimi: This upcoming production of Joseph isn't that. It is the celebratory vibe.

[1:34:53] Tommy: No one's gay in it. No one's queer in it whatsoever. But the feeling and the celebration is bathed in camp. Yeah, I mean, there's an article, it's on heyalma.com, which I've never heard of before, Noah Galvin lives his gay Jewish fantasy in Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat concert. Like... And he, like, in that presentation, he is presenting queer, like...

[1:35:29] Jimi: Right. If you watch the videos of it, it's unabashedly...

[1:35:34] Tommy: I guess the thing I'm uncomfortable with is... And this is something that could easily be interpreted in the opposite direction, and I don't intend it that way. Using a non-queer piece of literature as a vehicle for, like, elevating, you know, gay rights, queer rights, you know, the meme is, like, Andrew Lloyd Webber said gay rights. Like, show me Andrew Lloyd Webber waving his gay pride flag.

[1:36:01] Jimi: Right, completely, completely, and that's it.

[1:36:03] Tommy: Right? And I think there's something dangerous about not acknowledging that, about being complacent with that sort of thing. And then even more so than that, about elevating it, about making it that thing, right? Do, you know, you like celebratory gay musicals, let's do a... Let's write one, right? With a gay author, you know, with queer performers, like... As opposed to just saying, like, oh, well, you know, people love Joseph, so let's use it as our gay vehicle to get them in, you know? Like... I'm nervous about that being... It's the same problem with people accepting the bronzer in the 1990s Joseph, right? It's the same problem with the Calypso persisting, you know? It just becomes this kind of, like... The only way queer people can exist is on top of, you know, cishet straight literature.

And is by appropriating it in subtle and, you know, or like, like, oh, well, you know, we can see Noah Galvin's queerness in it, but my mom wouldn't. And I love her to death. And, you know, she's not homophobic by any means. But, like, there's... I guess this is, like, this stems back to my initial question of, like, is escapism dead? Like, escapism must be predicated on a concept of, like, at least temporarily ignoring or forgetting nuance and the social and political structures that exist outside of the theater, right? Because you have to escape. And so you have to just experience the story there. And I don't think any literature at all can just exist in its vacuum, even if it wants to. It's Tim Rice saying, you know, I don't... I'm not political.

I wanted to write a real tale about the Bible. Like, you know, you can't do... even if you think you are doing that, you're not, because you are absolutely influenced by everything that's gone into your brain.

[1:38:19] Jimi: And so you are more honest with the world and with yourself if you acknowledge those things. And then the way in which you acknowledge those things, and then the tension between those two things becomes important. How much you do or don't shut out the world, right? Like, a fully escapist production of The Music Man is still saying something political, even if it doesn't want to. Right. It may not be saying something positively political. Right. But it's still saying something, right? Like, if, you know, if Hugh Jackman walks out and the entire chorus is white, we're saying something, right? Especially now. And so even in the same way, I don't know. I guess I don't know what my thesis is about this thing, other than, like, a general uncomfortableness with it. You know, in a way that I find it a little dangerous to not name, if that makes any sense.

[1:39:07] Tommy: So it's not... so would you watch this production if you were sat in the audience? Would you be like, this is making me uncomfortable because it's written by Andrew Lloyd Webber?

[1:39:27] Jimi: I think a lot of things would make it uncomfortable. And this is absolutely mired in my own experience. But, you know, having an out-and-out queer icon celebrating and jiving as a stalwart biblical figure in what is pretending to be a biblical religious retelling of a religious thing. I have lots of problems with that, based on the persecution of homosexuals by the Catholic Church. Like, you know, and pretending like it's all kumbaya and that. But is there any element of it that's like a fuck you to all of these institutions? I mean, it's like, we're taking this and, you know, you've written some banging pop tunes. Sure as hell I'm going to die to that. Where Oklahoma is a fuck you, right? Very much so.

Bloody Oklahoma is a fuck you, right? Even Denver's Black Oklahoma is a fuck you, right? I don't know if this one is. But what I mean is that could it be? Sure. I think it would need to go farther in a way that would then go against their financial necessity, like in a way that would make people uncomfortable in a way that I think Bloody Oklahoma struggled, right? Like people went expecting, you know, oh what a beautiful morning and got something that they weren't planning for, which is great and divisive and I love that kind of theater. And, you know, I don't know if Joseph is the vehicle for that. And then, you know, cast a—what? This is stupid and I'm spitballing—but cast a male narrator and at the end of it Joseph kisses the narrator. Like, what are you going to do? Well then it's a different story because then you've added in a love story.

[1:41:28] Tommy: Fair, fair. That's different. But like, you know, I guess I also—some of my latent atheism is bleeding into my distaste for this. Because it's funny because I don't see it as religious whatsoever.

[1:41:44] Jimi: Fascinating, right? It's a Bible story. I absolutely agree, right? But to me there's nothing—because like you say, there's no moral in it. People read, as far as I know, people read the Bible to interpret and to make decisions on their own life, right? But it's all about God and destiny.

[1:42:07] Tommy: Absolutely, but to me, as someone that's—I still have a reverence, again, like anytime we talk about any sort of religious musical, I always go back to Godspell and the fact that I have such a reverence with that show. And I'm not religious at all. Godspell to me isn't about God.

[1:42:25] Jimi: Godspell to a lot of people is about God.

[1:42:31] Tommy: Is about God, yeah. Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat, I'm sure to a lot of people, is a beautiful, fun retelling of the Bible, right? To me, that literally doesn't come into it. I'm not—because in a strange way, God never really comes up.

[1:42:50] Jimi: Yeah, well, part of it is in "Close Every Door" to me. It's like, if I were important, you know, I'd ask, would I live or die? But I know the answers lie far from this world.

[1:43:09] Tommy: Right, and there's a lot of implication, but not in a very overt Jesus Christ Superstar way or very overt Godspell way, even. It's so diluted down into a story, a little story.

[1:43:20] Jimi: Yeah, but I think—I guess the thing I'm struggling to articulate is maybe that's my problem with it, is that it is possible—I don't know. I don't know if this is how I feel. I'm going to say it out loud. When an adaptation of a biblical piece becomes so separate from the structures that allowed the piece to thrive and bloom—systemic, you know, categorization and dehumanization of organized religion, right? The Bible, this story, becomes so separate from it. It's the same, you know, it's art and artist and the separation between the two. What is the distance after which it becomes okay? Because, right, you know, you could find, because of the way Western literature fancies itself, you could find all sorts of biblical parallels between almost every piece of popular American literature, because of the way we've decided you need to analyze literature. This one, you don't have to go far to see the connection, right? She walks on stage with the Bible and opens it. But if she doesn't do that—

[1:44:40] Tommy: No, but I'm saying if she doesn't. I mean, you got to make a lot more changes. Way, way back, many centuries ago, not long after the Bible began, in "Go! Go! Joseph," like, we've read the book and you come out on top. But it's, again, like, it's all implied. It's not, here is a story from the Bible. You know, I mean, Joseph was given these dreams from God.

[1:45:06] Jimi: What? No, no, I disagree fully. Name a show that is more overt about it being an explicit Bible story than Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat.

[1:45:19] Tommy: I genuinely think Godspell and Jesus Christ Superstar. Because they talk about the experience, and each of the characters has a relationship with God, and they address God as—

[1:45:32] Jimi: But those two aren't pitched as stories from the Bible. They're pitched as stories. They're pitched as, here's what happened to Jesus. And Godspell is mired in, you know, this whole, like, other framing story, right? This one is pitched as a parable, as a story, as this comes from the text and this, and you—

[1:45:55] Tommy: Right, because that is where it's from, like, at the end of the day, that is where it's from.

[1:45:57] Jimi: So you can't pretend that it's implied. No one is going into the show and saying, like, oh, I wonder where that story comes from.

[1:46:04] Tommy: No, but that is, again, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, it doesn't come on the radar for me. That isn't, I don't think of it and respond to it as I would as another religious text.

[1:46:18] Jimi: Do you know what I mean? Like, that isn't—Actually, in a way, I would imagine if there was more religion in it, I'd probably think more positively about it.

[1:46:30] Tommy: Sure. I wonder if this is also our differences in upbringing, being raised in Catholic school.

[1:46:35] Jimi: Yeah, for sure. Because the Bible was religion, like, and then you read it, and this is the text you study, and it's from this.

[1:46:42] Tommy: Exactly. Religion is lowercase for me. Do you know what I mean?

[1:46:45] Jimi: And I do have a very interesting relationship with it, because I don't even like calling myself agnostic, because of the stupid connotations that come alongside that. But I just have an interesting relationship. That's what I just say. I have an interesting relationship with religion. And, you know, I don't know. I don't know if it's because I'm—

[1:47:21] Tommy: You have the same entry point.

[1:47:29] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:47:30] Tommy: Yeah. Whereas I think I, especially because, you know, both of my first experiences with this, whether it's the seventh grade one I experienced—

[1:47:37] Jimi: Really good point, yeah.

[1:47:38] Tommy: Or the filmed one that replicates my first experience with this.

[1:47:42] Jimi: Are framed around this, like, educational Catholic upbringing.

[1:47:48] Tommy: Interesting.

[1:47:49] Jimi: Which, you know, perhaps breezes past you more easily than it does me.

[1:47:52] Tommy: I wonder if that's it.

[1:47:55] Jimi: I don't know how recently you rewatched the Donny Osmond version, but, like, the opening credits start with all of the actors, like, before even the part you register as the thing. It starts with all the actors dressed as teachers, kind of, like, sternly ushering all of these uniformed kids into the gym, and like, everyone being—

[1:48:14] Jimi: And you know, like, regimented about this stuff. And like, that's a visceral, visceral memory for me. You know, I don't want to, I think the word triggered is loaded. But it's kind of triggering for me. I recognize that, and I recognize not liking it. And like, and then, and then, oh, but it's a fun thing! And you know, Richard Attenborough's a fun guy, right? And oh, they all clap and everything! But like, you know, I think that very much informs how I relate to the show. And I think how any, you know, I'm discovering this more and more as I acknowledge my, I don't know, grumpiness about musical theatre, and some of the immovability of some of my opinions that I recognize, and I'm trying to make, you know, concerted efforts to soften.

[1:49:09] Tommy: Absolutely. But like, recognizing that, like, my associations with this show are things that I now connotate as very negative. And that it's really hard for me to separate that from the art. And I can, I can totally appreciate that. Yeah, for sure. Which is, I'm, you know, I'm interested in general to know, because like so many pieces of musical theatre, you know, this is, like Shrek, right? Like all of them. You're not going in to see Joseph wondering what's going to happen. And this is a show that, like, takes advantage of that even more so than I, like, I think there are people who walked into Cats not knowing what was going to happen for the very first time.

[1:49:50] Jimi: There, even from its inception, right? I'm sure that, you know, 13, 14, 15-year-old kids in the boys' school learning this piece also read bits of the Bible, some of them, to understand what was going on, especially to adapt it. Of course, that's the thing I would do if I was teaching this. And so like, and their parents, absolutely, because we assume this kind of, like, pop culture understanding of parts of the Bible, at least have some conception of this as a story. And it just, it seats it in such a weird way that I'm noticing about a lot of musical theatre, that, like, will we ever have a piece anymore where you can go in? I guess this is related to my question about escapism, too.

[1:50:39] Tommy: Like, you know, the true original musical, the people who saw then, like, a contemporary one walking into it, not knowing, legitimately not knowing what's going to happen. I guess what I think, because we are such, you know, an adapted art form, and rightly so, it's hard to write a musical, but, like, because we live in, you know, post-post-post modern art world, where nothing is original and everything is an adaptation of an adaptation again, asking an audience member, I mean, maybe that's my thesis, like, asking an audience member to give you the honour of full escapism is beyond the pale, you know?

[1:51:24] Jimi: Asking everyone to come in to just think about your piece in isolation seems, you know, impossible, right? You might encourage people to get there, you might create a place where people, where it is such an engrossing story that they can forget the outside world for a little bit, but not from walking in and holding the playbill, and certainly not of analysis afterwards, which is such an interesting thing, because it's something artists want to ask for, like, no, just look at my piece, just appreciate it for what it is, but that's, you know, this is, I don't know, I always find long, philosophical, heated, argumentative conversations resolve on, like, really simplistic truisms about the world, but that, like, art is this weird intersection of existing on its own, but also commenting on everything around it.

[1:52:21] Tommy: Exactly. That is, like, art isn't easy. But, you know, this musical sucks. What I'm stunned, right, is that we've been able to talk for almost two hours about Joseph. We always, this might be pulling back the podcast curtain behind this thing, but whenever, like, Jimi and I always get nervous about some fluffier musicals, like, we were texting before this, being like, God, what the hell are we gonna talk about? Like, I sat for an hour being like, what to discuss? And I didn't expect the discussions that we had, but I'm glad no, we had them.

[1:53:00] Jimi: Me neither. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. And thank you, listeners. And thank you for listening. This is, no, God. I also, this is sidebar, but I'm also always so fascinated by, like, the structures that exist around the art that we decide must be the structures around the art. You know, why do pictures need frames? Like, why do musicals need overtures? I could talk about why I think they do, but it is weird that so many people accept that they just have them.

[1:53:30] Tommy: Oh, for sure. But that's, I mean, that's a whole other wonderful topic.

[1:53:37] Jimi: That's a whole other podcast. Yeah. That's, like, the ninth new podcast that we've got in the bank. After our, was it How Do You Solve a Problem Like Maria? Was that the Sound of Music one?

[1:53:43] Tommy: Yes. I think Maria was the first. Where they chose different. Yeah, Maria was the first one.

[1:53:49] Jimi: And then Joseph, and then it was Nancy. And then it was.

[1:53:53] Tommy: What, if you could have any reality show about picking, have they done a Mama Rose one yet?

[1:53:59] Jimi: No. That would be fun.

[1:54:02] Tommy: Yeah, it would be. Yeah, that would be really interesting. But then.

[1:54:10] Jimi: Would it? Or.

[1:54:13] Tommy: It would be trashy. Don't get me wrong.

[1:54:15] Jimi: I don't know if it would be good because it would all depend on the director.

[1:54:19] Tommy: I've never watched any of these shows, but I imagine with the kind of parts they pick, like Maria and Joseph. And was it Dorothy?

[1:54:26] Jimi: Nancy and Dorothy. Yeah.

[1:54:29] Tommy: Okay. Who's Nancy?

[1:54:30] Jimi: From Oliver.

[1:54:32] Tommy: Oh, okay. I thought you meant Nancy from The Wizard of Oz.

[1:54:36] Jimi: She's like Dorothy's friend.

[1:54:38] Tommy: Sister. Yeah.

[1:54:39] Jimi: Who's just like annoying.

[1:54:41] Tommy: Like the kind of people they're going to ask to audition for these are up and comers who, you know, just want to be nice to everyone and like might get in little spats here and there. This is my assumption about these shows having never watched them.

[1:54:53] Jimi: Right.

[1:54:54] Tommy: If you're casting for Mama Rose, you're going to get old, crotchety, angry, you know, like Real Housewives style. Like it'd be trashy and not great, but like there'd be drama.

[1:55:07] Jimi: Yeah, you need to watch it because Nancy.

[1:55:10] Tommy: Is there drama?

[1:55:11] Jimi: Nancy had the.

[1:55:13] Tommy: The Nancy's dead.

[1:55:16] Jimi: It's not like they don't live in a house together. I don't think they do anyway.

[1:55:21] Tommy: It's very.

[1:55:21] Jimi: It's more like American Idol or something.

[1:55:24] Tommy: It's much more in that tone. It's just, it's honestly just fascinating.

[1:55:29] Jimi: Screw that. Make them live in a house together.

[1:55:32] Tommy: Imagine a Big Brother style house of 12 Mama Roses.

[1:55:35] Jimi: Musical theater divas.

[1:55:39] Tommy: Like who've been like regional like queens.

[1:55:44] Jimi: Poor, terrifying, but yeah, hugely entertaining.

[1:55:48] Tommy: I would hate myself for watching that and watch every episode.

[1:55:51] Jimi: I wouldn't miss a single second as I did.

[1:55:56] Tommy: Yeah, like that's my, I don't like a lot of reality TV.

[1:56:00] Jimi: Right.

[1:56:01] Tommy: But that I'd watch.

[1:56:06] Jimi: But hey, they're all doing quite well.

[1:56:08] Tommy: Good for them. You know, that's always great.

[1:56:11] Jimi: I always love to hear that about like, at least you can leverage it.

[1:56:14] Tommy: Even if it's manufactured.

[1:56:16] Jimi: Right. And one of the Nancys who didn't win, I think has played Elvira on Broadway.

[1:56:25] Tommy: Oh, that's awesome.

[1:56:27] Jimi: And she just, she originated the lead in Come From Away, here.

[1:56:33] Tommy: Oh, Jen Colella.

[1:56:36] Jimi: No, here, not there.

[1:56:38] Tommy: Right. That character.

[1:56:39] Jimi: But Jen Colella's character. Yeah, yeah.

[1:56:41] Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:56:42] Jimi: Jen Colella did not start off in I'd Do Anything.

[1:56:47] Tommy: Andrew Lloyd Webber reality TV show.

[1:56:49] Jimi: Although I'm sure she'd do very well as Nancy.

[1:56:51] Tommy: Was that the Oliver one? I'd Do Anything?

[1:56:54] Jimi: I'd Do Anything.

[1:56:55] Tommy: It's funny, right?

[1:56:58] Jimi: It is, but in a stupid way.

[1:56:59] Tommy: It's honestly, like you need to, because again, just the level of camp.

[1:57:04] Jimi: Oh yeah.

[1:57:04] Tommy: Is off the charts.

[1:57:07] Jimi: Taking off their shoes.

[1:57:10] Tommy: Handing them to Andrew Lloyd Webber, who's obviously the most awkward character.

[1:57:13] Jimi: I don't even want to get into, I like, I will be accused of being oversensitive to so many aspects of things, but like, God damn.

[1:57:21] Tommy: Right.

[1:57:21] Jimi: Who said, who said yes to this?

[1:57:23] Tommy: Andrew Lloyd Webber.

[1:57:25] Jimi: That, well, that.

[1:57:26] Tommy: Exactly.

[1:57:28] Jimi: I love your impression of Andrew Lloyd Webber, which is.

[1:57:30] Tommy: Mmm, yes, this will be fun.

[1:57:33] Jimi: Rich British man.

[1:58:14] Tommy: That was Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat.

[1:58:21] Jimi: Honestly, who knew?

[1:58:23] Tommy: Who knew?

[1:58:24] Jimi: We didn't even talk about how in professional things, Technicolor needs to have a trademark on it.

[1:58:28] Tommy: Yeah, that's the whole question.

[1:58:30] Jimi: Here's, here's a question. We live in fascinating times. I believe Technicolor, the company is going bankrupt right now.

[1:58:37] Tommy: Oh, really?

[1:58:39] Jimi: Because they still do like color grading for films and some film stuff.

[1:58:42] Tommy: Right.

[1:58:43] Jimi: And not that this is on the top of anyone's wondering about this year, but I wonder if Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat will lose its registered trademark little insignia if the company Technicolor goes bankrupt.

[1:58:55] Tommy: Interesting.

[1:58:56] Jimi: Ceases to exist.

[1:58:57] Tommy: Isn't that a fascinating idea?

[1:59:00] Jimi: Yeah, like fascinating in our world, isn't it?

[1:59:03] Tommy: Yeah, fascinating.

[1:59:04] Jimi: That isn't a populist fascinating thing.

[1:59:07] Tommy: But to us, that's something that we'll think about for a while.

[1:59:09] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:59:10] Jimi: And I'm sure to a lot of you, too, listeners.

[1:59:13] Tommy: Hey, want to know what's next?

[1:59:16] Jimi: I bet you ask away.

[1:59:18] Tommy: Okie dokie.

[1:59:20] Jimi: So, Tommy, our next show is the first musical to receive the Pulitzer without a production on Broadway.

[1:59:29] Tommy: Simple as that.

[1:59:30] Jimi: What show is it?

[1:59:31] Tommy: It's our easiest question yet, I think, I hope.

[1:59:34] Jimi: Potentially.

[1:59:36] Tommy: Not like I was listening back.

[1:59:38] Jimi: Our one for Singing in the Rain.

[1:59:40] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:59:40] Jimi: We did this stupid quiz question where we put something through Google five times and expected people to get that.

[1:59:47] Tommy: Oh, that's stupid.

[1:59:49] Jimi: Man, that's so stupid.

[1:59:51] Tommy: We are idiots anyway.

[1:59:53] Jimi: If you'd like to get in touch with us idiots, you absolutely can.

[1:59:58] Tommy: Our show Twitter and Instagram is @JimandTomic.

[2:00:02] Jimi: That is J-I-M-A-N-D-T-O-M-I-C.

[2:00:04] Tommy: Or you can drop us an email on our website at jimandtomic.com.

[2:00:09] Jimi: And while you're there, you can check out our Patreon if you'd like to financially support the show.

[2:00:12] Tommy: As always, thank you to our current patrons.

[2:00:16] Jimi: We adore you deeply.

[2:00:17] Tommy: And reviews on Apple Podcasts are fantastic.

[2:00:20] Jimi: Or wherever else you get your podcasts.

[2:00:21] Tommy: The podcast landscape is diversifying nowadays.

[2:00:24] Jimi: It's huge!

[2:00:25] Tommy: And of course, it just helps us out so much when you tell your pals, your musical theatre loving pals, all about our show.

[2:00:31] Jimi: That's really the only way that we advertise, if you call it advertising.

[2:00:40] Tommy: Yes, thank you for telling people about us.

[2:00:42] Jimi: Thanks.

[2:00:43] Tommy: And hey, thanks for listening.

[2:00:44] Jimi: Cheers, Jimmy!

[2:00:45] Tommy: Cheers, Tomic!

[2:01:01] Jimi: I very much enjoyed Andrew Lloyd Webber's social media team is putting him up to a lot of tweeting right now during the corona times.

[2:01:04] Tommy: And it must be like a weekly, like, what's Andrew listening to?

[2:01:09] Jimi: And he'll like hold up a photo of the album on his iPad.

[2:01:17] Tommy: And so there's a very staged photo of Andrew Lloyd Webber doing that like fake beady-eyed Andrew Lloyd Webber style, holding up an iPad with Harry Styles singing Watermelon Sugar on the front of it.

[2:01:27] Jimi: And it's just this weird...

[2:01:30] Tommy: It's so...

[2:01:31] Jimi: If this makes it in, the photo will go in the show notes, because you just gotta see this photo.

[2:01:35] Tommy: Wow, okay.

[2:01:39] Jimi: That can be the outro, and I'll stick it in for that reason.

[2:01:43] Tommy: Wow.