This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Tommy: Right, so my flies.

[0:01] Jimi: Yeah, tell me about your flies.

[0:03] Tommy: I d Right. This may be me in like quarantine brain spiraling.

[0:09] Jimi: Right.

[0:10] Tommy: I've had like in the past four days.

[0:14] Jimi: Mm-hmm.

[0:15] Tommy: Maybe three three, four days. I've released out of my flat forty flies.

[0:22] Jimi: Mmm, that's too many.

[0:23] Tommy: That's too like that's that's a lot. That's I'm like my windows have been closed.

[0:29] Jimi: Yeah.

[0:30] Tommy: For the for the most part. I've cleaned out my bin.

[0:35] Jimi: Okay.

[0:36] Tommy: I I'd I'd I don't keep food anywhere else.

[0:40] Jimi: You're not the kind of person who has like a cookie in the bottom of your bed that's been there for like three weeks.

[0:45] Tommy: And also I'm pretty sure like houseflies just do meat.

[0:48] Jimi: Hmm.

[0:49] Tommy: Right? Like they cause it's Drosophila, like the wee ones that do fruit.

[0:54] Jimi: Yeah.

[0:54] Tommy: Fine with them. You can't get rid of that's fine.

[0:56] Jimi: Your your bioballery is showing.

[0:58] Tommy: Yeah, thank you, Drosophila Melanogaster, my good old pal. But these other flies. And so now I'm like, is one of my neighbors dead?

[1:07] Jimi: Ooh, that happened to me.

[1:11] Tommy: What somebody get us another drink.

[1:15] Jimi: Hello, and welcome to Jim and Tomic's musical theater happy hour.

[1:20] Tommy: I'm Tommy.

[1:21] Jimi: And I'm Jimi, and this is the only musical theater podcast with whiskey on the rocks.

[1:27] Tommy: And sparkly frocks. I tried to say that like you.

[1:30] Jimi: Here we take apart your favorite shows, muddle them together with a shot of buffoonery, and pour you a refreshing glass of musical theatre conversation. Jimi, what you drinking today?

[1:37] Jimi: Um He's thinking.

[1:41] Tommy: I'm thinking.

[1:41] Jimi: Deep in the I am drinking like I don't know. We find it whatever it is, I'm just gonna swallow it down.

[1:52] Tommy: That was bad. I'm not very good at these.

[1:55] Jimi: With the Foley work, even.

[1:57] Tommy: I know that's all I can provide. Quick, get some coconuts and make a uh horse.

[2:04] Jimi: Oh, I just thought you were looking at the dance.

[2:08] Tommy: No.

[2:08] Jimi: He started Jimi started uh showing what his mama gave him.

[2:13] Tommy: Um hey, whatever talking about, my mom. Nobody knows.

[2:20] Jimi: Uh our next episode features the latest outing of a composer who has been referred to as God in their past.

[2:28] Tommy: Nobody has any taste in cinema.

[2:34] Jimi: I barely understand this question anyway.

[2:36] Tommy: And I know you said our next episode, but you mean this episode.

[2:39] Jimi: Oh, yeah, sorry, I just read it, verbato.

[2:43] Tommy: What musical is it, Jimi?

[2:45] Jimi: That musical is Jagged Little Pill.

[2:49] Tommy: Swan.

[3:04] Jimi: And all I really want is deliverance.

[3:45] Tommy: So, right. Come on. Dogma.

[3:48] Jimi: I still don't understand. Like, was this just not a film in the United States?

[3:52] Tommy: I think you're the only person who's seen this film.

[3:55] Jimi: Apparently. Like, it's such a good film. Um, so Alanis has a I mean, it's not a cameo, but it's kind of a cameo.

[4:05] Tommy: She's only in one scene.

[4:06] Jimi: That's a cameo.

[4:07] Tommy: She plays she plays God.

[4:09] Jimi: Obviously. Yeah, but can you keep can you be a cameo if you're god? You know what I mean? Like, she's a very crucial role.

[4:13] Tommy: So it just doesn't feel like anything.

[4:18] Jimi: In yeah. Um, and she explodes Ben Affleck.

[4:23] Tommy: Because we've all wanted to for years.

[4:25] Jimi: Right? And then kisses of Jay and Silent Bob Fate.

[4:28] Tommy: That one too. Oh, I've wanted to for decades. It's just such it's such a good film. Uh Alan Rickman, Chris Rock, Salma Hayek, Ben Affleck, Jay and Silent Bob.

[4:40] Jimi: That is a wild cast.

[4:42] Tommy: It is a wild cast. It is a wild. Honestly. That's crazy.

[4:46] Jimi: I mean, it was like I kinda culty, but still, like, I don't know. I thought it was really big.

[4:53] Tommy: Apparently not.

[4:56] Jimi: Apparently not. Anyway, Alanis Morissette plays God in it. And she is the composer of this show. Jagged Little Pill. And the album it's based on. So it's got music by Alanis Morissette and Glen Ballard.

[5:09] Tommy: Ballard?

[5:10] Jimi: Who knows?

[5:11] Tommy: Bollard.

[5:12] Jimi: Ballard. Who knows? Book by Diablo Cody. Uh uh, famous for uh didn't she win an Academy Award for writing Juno?

[5:19] Tommy: I think she did, yeah.

[5:20] Jimi: Yeah, that's true. And you can feel it in this. Um Juno came out when I was in college. Brings back a lot of college memories.

[5:27] Tommy: Yeah.

[5:28] Jimi: Yeah, I know exactly what you mean by that. Um, and it was also directed by Diane Paulus, who we all know of Waitress Fame, uh the recent revivals of hair, Pippin.

[5:41] Tommy: It's Diane Paulus.

[5:43] Jimi: It is, it just isn't say exactly. And uh I think this is worth noting, particularly in this show, because we'll probably talk about them later. Uh Orchestrations by Mr. Tom Kitts.

[5:55] Tommy: Of Next to Normal Fame.

[5:57] Jimi: Of Next to Normal Fame, exactly, and the lesser known if then. Except for us to talk about if then by the way. I love if it anyway. Um, and yeah, as we said, it is based on the 1995 album of the same name, Jagged Little Pill. It's wild. Uh it workshopped at the ART in Massachusetts in uh 2018 and then moved to Broadway December of 19. Uh currently in a coronavirus holding pattern, as many of the shows are. But one of the few that made the cut for the bizarre list of Tony Award eligibility this year.

[6:34] Tommy: The fun Tonies.

[6:36] Jimi: These will be weird.

[6:37] Tommy: Oh man, if we do a Tony episode, it's gonna be wild.

[6:41] Jimi: Yeah, I feel like effectively we have the chance to I don't know, have more broadcasting scope than they do.

[6:41] Tommy: I don't know.

[6:48] Jimi: I know. Yeah, like I feel like I could tell I I would be more confident in predicting the outcome of musical theater awards in this Tony Awards than I've felt ever before.

[7:00] Tommy: I think that's fair.

[7:01] Jimi: I think even the years when it's just one person. Even when even during Hamilton year, like I still feel more confident about this year.

[7:08] Tommy: I think that's fair.

[7:09] Jimi: I think that's fair. Um, it'll be interesting. Um, so yeah, Jagged Little Pill. T, what's your experience with Alanis Morissette, Tommy?

[7:16] Tommy: So I what has been wild to me about listening to so this musical uh did I I started listening to it listening to it for the first time for this episode. Um you know, unlike some shows we do where I have a casual understanding of them beforehand. This one was new to me in prepping for this show. I certainly know the Alanis Morissette hits, but there are some deep cuts on this album uh that were not that I had never heard before. And then plenty of plenty of songs where like the beginning, I'm like, huh, I don't recognize this, and then it hits the chorus. I'm like, oh yeah, this song. Okay, yeah, got it. Um, you know, I was I was a nerdy musical theater indoor kid in high school and middle school, and so this sort of pop music would have gone way past me.

Um just made it interesting. I s you know, I uh was able to approach this as a musical first, not being terribly in love with the music. Um which I wonder like what's your experience? Did you were you uh I have extensive experience with Alanis?

[8:14] Jimi: I think I first listened to Jagged Little Pill in like early 2000s, like 2001 or something. I got it out of the library.

[8:21] Tommy: Wow you used to do with cast recordings, right?

[8:23] Jimi: It is what I used to do with cast recordings.

[8:24] Tommy: You were doing it with cast I was doing it with singer songwriters.

[8:26] Jimi: You're a much a much cooler middle schooler than me.

[8:28] Tommy: I I just have um yeah, because like I mean my my dad's a musician, so I was always kind of brought up with the Sure uh you know singer songwriter, just quite good taste. Um and yeah, so I've I've listened for ages. I've seen her live. She came to Glasgow. Um that was incredible gig.

[8:46] Jimi: Yeah.

[8:46] Tommy: Uh and yeah, so that's quite cool that we've got these two different perspectives. And I'm I'm curious, because I I come at this from uh uh a pocket of ignorance. Like it seems like Jagged Little Pill has been in workshops for almost, you know, just shy of a decade. Um like started in 2013 reportedly, and like was this a big is this a big deal in Morissette fandom or kind of uh uh a sidebar to it?

[9:19] Jimi: In this it like I don't think there were huge swaths of people who are like, oh yes, the ABBA musical Mamma Mia is finally happening, you know what I mean?

[9:28] Tommy: Right, but perhaps American Idiot is on the other side of that. Like there were you know, grungy teens who are like, yeah, my jam on stage now, you know. And so like I and I don't have a sense of where this show falls on its like fan base and fan service.

[9:43] Jimi: Well, I think like particularly with this show, um I think the reason why it's it's taken so long is because people have been vying for Jagged Little Pill the musical for a long, long, long time. Um but she's always said no because it's uh people want it to be about her. They've always wanted it to be a biopic musical about her life, and her thing is just like, well, my life is my story, that's my story. I don't want someone else to write that.

[10:09] Tommy: Yeah.

[10:09] Jimi: Um and so I think when uh I think it was Diablo Cody and Diabolis together approached her, which is this idea. Um yeah, she was on board with this obviously completely original story.

[10:24] Tommy: Yeah, sure.

[10:25] Jimi: And she's been like very intrinsic throughout the whole thing, and it's kind of been like, if it's bad, that's on me, which I feel is really interesting.

[10:36] Tommy: Yeah, I don't think ABBA was doing that with Mamma Mia.

[10:40] Jimi: I don't think so. So yeah, I find I think it's just like it sh it's as much her show as it is in the well else is it's not like here's this bank of music and we've got permission to do this.

[10:53] Tommy: Right.

[10:54] Jimi: It's like I've brought this forward, you know. I mean, I've wanted this to tell a certain story, etc. Um and I think the whole um process has been extremely collaborative between the three of them.

[11:07] Tommy: Yeah, which is great.

[11:08] Jimi: It's really really great. That's the dream, ain't it?

[11:11] Tommy: Well, shall we dive in?

[11:14] Jimi: Spoosh.

[11:15] Tommy: That was Jimi diving.

[11:16] Jimi: Spoosh, just remember that.

[11:20] Tommy: No. Just the sound effects sploosh.

[11:23] Jimi: No, it's splish from um holes.

[11:26] Tommy: Was it called sploosh?

[11:27] Jimi: I thought it was called split.

[11:28] Tommy: It was called Spoosh.

[11:30] Jimi: That's something else.

[11:32] Tommy: That's a different thing called holes.

[11:36] Jimi: Play the music.

[11:38] Tommy: Such pretty focus in the world.

[11:44] Jimi: On this continuum of them.

[11:58] Tommy: This is last.

[12:03] Jimi: This is Smash.

[12:12] Tommy: That's what she called it.

[13:02] Jimi: So we've talked about Mamma Mia quite a lot. This is in fact a jukebox musical.

[13:08] Tommy: Yeah. How do you feel about that?

[13:12] Jimi: I mean, the first thing I'm gonna say is I don't feel like it's a jukebox musical.

[13:18] Tommy: Huh.

[13:21] Jimi: We're this is gonna be interesting.

[13:22] Tommy: I absolutely do.

[13:25] Jimi: Okay. Yeah. And I know like I s I I think there's subtlety here, but it has to do with my approach to the show versus your approach to the show, like you know the songs.

[13:40] Tommy: I absolutely I don't know, I'm struggling a lot with my opinion about the show, Jimi, and I think we're gonna I think you're gonna be surprised by it, but I don't know how I feel about it yet. Um I think like one of the things I struggle with is a lot of the songs, some moments of the songs seem very well servicing the plot. But not all of them. Um especially when my first way in is just through the album. It kind of just sounds like I'm listening to a pop album again. Um like it took a lot of mental effort to unpack the plot of this show because the plot is by design kind of shoehorned into the lyrics around it and there's moments where I felt like that showed in ways that I didn't particularly find successful inter we are gonna have some good discussion that's lovely um so I'm gonna say right off the bat this is my most listened to thing of 2020.

[14:48] Jimi: Really and I'm showing no signs of stopping. But now I'm like I mean no I think it's undeniably incredible. Um but I'm also like is that just because I love the songs already? But no that isn't that isn't the case because my two favorite songs are the ones that were written for the show.

[15:06] Tommy: That's fair.

[15:07] Jimi: I would say so the one of the first examples that hit me was um Ironic um one of the songs I recognize certainly probably one of the most famous songs and I was really curious and you don't get a lot of uh information about this from the album like what how does this sit in the plot, right? Uh and in the the story I guess we haven't talked about the plot really we should give a brief overview of whatever I guess we probably should yeah you're right you're right you're right. Um so uh it basically it's it's it's kind of layers upon layers of whole wheat.

[15:42] Tommy: It's complicated.

[15:43] Jimi: Yeah at its core uh it's about uh family in Connecticut. Um and they are uh uh just basically surviving and living as a family, and it's looking at all of the different things that they are encountering in their own lives. Um but then going deeper than that, uh there's also a plot um that is uh about uh a sexual assault um and kind of the spirals that come off of that and affect the wider community. Um looking at things like uh you know, bystanders and uh yeah, just how that all ties together, I guess.

[16:33] Tommy: It it it centers around a uh pretty nuclear family of 2020, I would say, um, facing very contemporary problems. Um dad, uh important white mom, dad, adopted black daughter, biological white son, um, which causes some stress among the family and is a plot point. Um it deals with a lot of uh protest culture. Um there's a lot of discussion of uh uh queer and identity issues. Um and you know, you kind of follow this mishmash of a story um as this family between two Christmases kind of deals with some of these traumas. The mom is addicted to opioids after a car accident, um the son is dealing with some like uh uh some perfection issues around like his parents looking for joy there. Uh the daughter is both dealing with her own identity as being, you know, a a black woman in a white household and an adoptive daughter, along with her own uh uh coming to terms with her own queerness, um, and there's some drama around that as well, around some very specifically bisexual drama, which is a fascinating plot point that doesn't get a lot of airtime. So it's a very all the reviews of this say like these are these are the issues of today. Um, which is the sort of thing a newspaper say, and I think they're not wrong.

[17:53] Tommy: Um all that to say, I think back to my point uh about you know hearing pop songs. So I'm listening to Ironic, um, sung by Frankie.

[18:03] Jimi: Frankie.

[18:04] Jimi: Sung by Frankie um as like a a a poem or piece that she wrote for her English class, and she gets through the first bit, and like the running joke with the song Ironic is that it's not literal irony. It is not, and I mean literal in the literary sense. The concept, yeah. It is not the concept of irony, and they lampshade that in the piece by having a kid in the back of the class raise his hand and be like, that's not really irony, that's just kind of shitty. Um, and then um Phoenix, her perhaps future boyfriend, uh, and new kid to the school, is like, hey, let her finish. Um, and then she continues singing the song Ironic. And I mean that. She continues singing the song Ironic. There's not like Ironic is a popular song, partially because of its structure, but also I think because of its very vivid imagery.

You know, it describes all these interesting situations, like that's why it's a great song to begin with. The song in the musical is the like the way they put it in is by having someone read it. You know what I mean? Like, it's not they use it as kind of a meat cute between Frankie and Phoenix. Um, this is how you know they start to develop feelings for each other, and so the part of that's incorporated into it, and then they do like the teacher gets one line about like a no smoking sign on your cigarette break where she's like ho hum, woe is me, womp womp. But the rest of it is just Frankie singing it.

[19:39] Jimi: And I've the Ironic is one of the more standout examples of not being so integral to the plot. And they want to put it in because it's a popular song.

[19:52] Tommy: Yeah.

[19:53] Jimi: And I struggle with this because cut the song, right? If we're just going at this from a musical theater construction standpoint, this song is not serving the plot. This song is a waste of time. You can write a better song for their meat cute. Or find a better way to incorporate this song in the plot that you're making up to kind of craft around these. But there's they're at this weird kind of middle ground that I don't think satisfies either party. Um and I go back and forth. I think there are definitely moments in this show where this sort of stuff shines, but there are moments that really really stick out to me as forced and shoehorned and lampshaded, and I struggle to talk about it because it's, you know, the show deals with a lot of hot button issues, and I think we'll talk about my feelings around that later.

Um but it's, you know, generally my feelings about jukebox musicals are not great, right? I'm all about original work, you know, let's write something new, let's put something new in the world. Um I have the greatest respect for Alanis Morissette. I do enjoy these songs. And like for what it's worth, and it pains me to say it, I think something like Mamma Mia has a more cohesive plot.

[21:15] Tommy: Really?

[21:16] Jimi: Yeah.

[21:18] Tommy: That's interesting.

[21:20] Jimi: I really, I really do. Um, I think I guess.

[21:25] Tommy: Yeah, I'm still I'm still developing my thoughts around this, to be intentional.

[21:29] Jimi: But that's my initial reaction, I would say.

[21:32] Tommy: Yeah.

[21:32] Tommy: I mean, as someone who really likes Mamma Mia, I I don't agree with that.

[21:36] Jimi: Okay.

[21:37] Tommy: Just in a sense of like, Mamma Mia makes no sense.

[21:41] Jimi: But there's a beginning, a middle, and an end.

[21:44] Tommy: And some of the There's a beginning, a middle, and an end to this, though.

[21:48] Jimi: Yeah, I guess I would say I guess I think what I mean about Mamma Mia is I can see why if we're song spotting it, I can see why the song is happening now. And something about the plot is trying to make the song happen now. Whereas in this moment in Jagged Little Pill, where uh uh Frankie sings Ironic, you could feasibly put very many Alanis Morissette songs right in there. Here's a different piece I wrote, and let me just read the lyrics to you. I think that's what I mean.

[22:24] Tommy: And there save for some of the moments where like the dynamos are just singing a song in Mamma Mia, right? Where there could be any song, Mamma Mia does that less so.

[22:35] Jimi: And I think See Yeah.

[22:38] Tommy: Yeah, to me, like I would I would give you Ironic, right? Because I think that is the only one where it feels like we're doing a jukebox musical, and therefore we have our list of XYZ songs that need to be in it, because it's people, you know, people are fans.

[22:53] Jimi: Yeah. Um so, and I think I think you're completely right. I think like you say, you take that scene out of the show, nothing whatsoever changes. Like it doesn't even really advance Frankie's opinions on the world, you know. I mean, you don't really get much of a sense right of that.

[23:10] Tommy: Um I think like that one example I'll give you. I think honestly, I honestly think the rest of them show so let's say, and I do think Ironic is the most stand-out example, and I think it's worse at the beginning than it is at the end.

[23:28] Jimi: Right. Let's let's talk hand in my pocket. Um, you know, ostensibly Joe and Frankie are contemplating their relationship. But because they are, you know, celebrating their relationship, having this moment together, um, because they're stuck with the song they have, the lines like one hand in my pocket and one hand given a high five, don't really, you know, it's only there because it's a lyric in a song.

[23:56] Tommy: If there isn't this like symbiotic relationship between the music and lyrics and the plot in these particular moments that that they really stick out to me as someone who doesn't know this music and is trying to unpack like the story underneath it, you know, and it's I'm I'm identifying this because I this is why I I don't like generally jukebox musicals, is because it is this like you know, sort of masturbatory fan service of like, oh, and where did they put that song? Oh, I can't believe that song's here, you know.

[24:31] Jimi: Um and some of the joy of doing a jukebox musical is finding the ways in which they have recentered these lines, which they do in some times, like um uh the end of Ironic, let's say, you know, and meeting his beautiful wife, and then uh uh Phoenix is like I'm not seeing anyone, right? Like that's that's delightful, even if it feels a little forced in that moment.

[24:55] Tommy: And I see these things pop up, you know.

[25:00] Jimi: And I can't quite I I wish it I wish some of it felt more ingrained than it does, as someone who's not, you know, an Alanis head or whatever the fan service is. Because that like I don't know, I think for again, just to take the example of hand in my pocket, like for me, the reason I think it works is because Joe is uh very much an Alanis character, sure, like and so Jack Little Pill is obviously deeply autobiographical, like, and that's that is how Alanis Morissette writes it comes from completely within her.

[25:38] Tommy: Sure.

[25:38] Jimi: Um this kind of like um struggling feminist liberal in a time of oppression, yeah. Uh like to me, that is that's just a really easy catch-all description of Joe.

[25:54] Tommy: Sure.

[25:54] Jimi: Um so like and it just feels like um they're taking that moment just to introduce themselves into the storyline, sing about themselves, singing about how they feel.

[26:05] Tommy: Totally.

[26:06] Jimi: And I think in so like, let's say we were writing Jaggy Little Pill without the constraints of the songs. Uh-huh. I I would learn like a a lot more specifics about Joe in that moment. Where if you're like, and this is, you know, this is the struggle we have of approaching this show through a secondary art form, right? You know, my first way in is through recording of it, which is not the full thing, and like I get that, and I get that that's limiting.

[26:37] Tommy: And I also hold the opinion that like a good musical theater song, let's say, stand on its stands on its own and can give you hints of that sort of stuff.

[26:47] Jimi: But because these are pop songs, and pop songs that for the most part they haven't touched, you know, they're not like going back in and you know developing new lyrics in big ways, let's say it's harder for me at least to get into the idea of who Joe is through what is their exposition song, what is their this is who I am song. Um whereas like even something, you know, as uh uh uh floaty and lyrical as like corner of the sky from Pippin, let's say, right? Doesn't really talk about like, and this is me, Pippin, but something about that gives me a deeper understanding of who Pippin is.

[27:35] Tommy: Um and I also I also don't know if I'm putting my own preconceived notions about what a jukebox musical is on top of the book.

[27:40] Jimi: Well that's that's this is the thing that I'm kind of curious about is that you're going into it knowing someone else has written this song for another purpose.

[27:49] Tommy: Absolutely.

[27:49] Jimi: Do you know what I mean? And if you'd heard that on its own, would you be thinking, wow, that's quite poetic, or that's a really interesting intro song.

[27:57] Tommy: Because it's not just like this it's my story, la la la la.

[28:01] Jimi: I will I will say, and I do felt that I do even feel this about something like Waitress, which is original songs, but by a pop artist, that a lot of Jagged Little Pill like you can hit this album on shuffle and still make your way through. There's not a huge arc to the music styles because that's how pop music is, right? That's this is not a critique. However, the musical theater form, there is kind of a roller coaster of style throughout this thing, and I do like this all goes into the same bucket of like these are the problems of jukebox musicals that I see across the board, and I'm not sure if this show overcomes them for me.

[28:47] Tommy: Right, okay. I mean, that's obviously totally fair. I think it does, like, since it like better like generally like to me, it I don't I don't read it as a jukebox musical, like I don't listen to it to listen to the yeah Alana songs in the same way that for you just listen to it.

[29:05] Jimi: I'll fun your arrangements of X. Um the only thing I do that for is the overture, which has been completely written, you know, for the show right as that, you know. I mean it's just a vocal overture and it's a lot of fun.

[29:16] Tommy: Yeah.

[29:17] Jimi: Um but I think the storytelling within the songs is really really good. Like, I think if you take MJ's character, um I think her personal songs and her personal storytelling is fantastic, and I think it really comes through.

[29:35] Jimi: And I think the songs, I don't know, I think they just completely like bolster, like they just yeah, they they prop that up, whereas it doesn't feel like uh I'm just gonna sing this song, yeah, because like I just don't think I generally don't think that at all.

[29:55] Tommy: Interesting.

[29:55] Jimi: I'd absolutely and like you know, this is this is new on my development of it, and I am putting my opinions out there. And I'd I also don't want to dismiss the fact like I applaud this the existence of this production.

[30:06] Jimi: They could have just made an Alanis Morissette jukebox musical more like Jersey Boys, right? If Alanis had said yes, and it would have been wickedly popular and fine. And so, like to write a meaningful, important story around this, like I don't want to discredit that, and you know, you know, make make no mistake, I think it's a great addition to the canon.

[30:27] Jimi: And I find myself kind of bouncing in between this thought of I want a show, I want more show than I feel sometimes. And I do go back and forth, like some pieces when performed, it's 2020, we can talk about this.

[30:44] Jimi: It when you look at some of the you know illicit recordings that exist of this show. Some moments seem very ingrained in what they're doing, and there's great moments, and some moments feel like and now I just gotta finish this song and sing this line um and get through it.

[30:59] Jimi: And the actors are you know, they're doing it. It's not like they're being lazy in it, it's not like they haven't found the emotion underneath, but there is like a second step between it where like they gotta really sell the subtext of a particular line because the overt meaning of it doesn't actually quite match the particular micro beat that they're on right now, if that makes sense.

[31:24] Tommy: Right, okay.

[31:25] Tommy: Yeah, no, I d I think it does make sense. I think the only time that happened for me was with Unprodigal Daughter.

[31:33] Jimi: Okay.

[31:34] Tommy: Um when she runs away. So again, if you're not if you don't know the story, um, Frankie, the daughter, has uh a big fate with both of her parents um because of their kind of opinions on her having sex compared to um one of her friends being raped, um and they have a massive bust up and she runs away um to New York.

[31:57] Tommy: Um and I think to me, I was like, if she didn't go to New York, it might have been okay, but it just felt very like Yeah, a bit much. It felt a bit much, and it took me out of it a little bit because I was like that a 16-year-old, I mean, maybe I'm being naive, maybe they could, but a 16-year-old traveler, I don't know how long is it from Connecticut to New York.

[32:19] Jimi: Yeah, and we we have later down in our outline the book, so I think we'll we'll talk about some of that. But that was the only time where I felt like short and what I will say is it makes so much, it makes perfect sense.

[32:33] Jimi: Like for Frankie to sing Unprodigal Daughter is perfect, and it serves the story because every single lyric of that song feeds into everything that she's feeling.

[32:45] Tommy: Totally.

[32:46] Jimi: And so in that case, I'm like, well, that that's great, that works. But the the idea that that was happening at all was the thing that was a bit like Yeah, that's a bit weird.

[32:56] Jimi: But uh again, everything else I think is incredible. And I think one of the reasons why I think it is so good is because of the original songs.

[33:08] Tommy: Sure.

[33:08] Jimi: And I think you know I think this the original song Slap, like I think that's such the struggle with this thing, is like the songs are good and you don't want to mess with good, and then you're presented with this bizarre puzzle of you know it's the it's the SpongeBob problem almost, right?

[33:26] Jimi: Like, how do you put this stuff in an order that makes sense that you can write a plot around. SpongeBob's not the best comparison because that's most of that's original.

[33:35] Jimi: Um but still you're like in you know the song spotting for this show is a particularly unique situation. You have a bucket of songs already without an order which is generally the opposite direction you would normally song spot an unwritten show.

[33:53] Jimi: You've got an order based on the story or whatever and you gotta pick out what the songs are. Instead you've got you know fully informed metaphorical imagery lyrics that you have to in like wrap a story around and I think you know it's a I can't picture there's not another jukebox musical that has done it honestly as successfully as this either I will say like every other jukebox musical around an artist couches some of the songs in and then they sang the song right?

[34:33] Tommy: Yeah and and it never happens here's your token lane and here's the song like it's that kind of thing.

[34:40] Jimi: Yeah like Jersey Boys, you know uh maybe I would say American Idiot gets close to this you know but see I I find it difficult with American Idiot because it is fantasy.

[34:52] Tommy: That's fair.

[34:53] Jimi: And it is you know I mean and also the original album is a concept album.

[34:57] Tommy: Is the concept album so it has an order and a story, whereas this is much more, you know, and like this isn't it's not just the Jagged Little Pill album.

[35:05] Jimi: It's a bunch of different albums and some new stuff.

[35:07] Tommy: Right, exactly exactly, exactly.

[35:09] Jimi: Um so no, I think I think that's that's exactly what I would say as well. Is I think like to me, this is the best example of a jukebox musical that I think currently exists.

[35:19] Tommy: Um I think it's the best example of like a non-diegetic jukebox musical compared to something like Jersey Boys, yeah, beautiful, where the songs are being composed on the stage.

[35:31] Jimi: You know, I mean like I think that's totally um yeah, I I just think it's I think it's Marvel.

[35:36] Tommy: Like, and I think that's the thing is like when you then just put it in the world of non jukebox musical musicals, right?

[35:44] Jimi: I think it still sits really high.

[35:47] Tommy: Yeah, well, and that was the question I was gonna ask is like, is this you know, and this is a loaded question, certainly, but is this a jukebox musical?

[35:55] Jimi: I think by its base definition, sure. You know, we're taking the songs of an artist and putting them together.

[36:00] Tommy: But in what a jukebox musical has become, because you still have something like let's say all shook up, right?

[36:07] Jimi: Um, which absolutely has a plot built around songs, um, and and does, you know, kind of play around with some of the diagesis, non-diagesis of it.

[36:18] Tommy: But you know, in some ways, Jagged Little Pill and All Shook Up are kind of closer to each other because we're wrapping a plot around a couple songs.

[36:29] Jimi: It is I just think it does it better.

[36:31] Tommy: Yeah.

[36:32] Jimi: I do, I don't know. I'm still developing my opinion about this sort of thing.

[36:37] Jimi: About I like, and a lot of it is certainly informed by you know, I when I when I teach kids and like we're starting a new production or whatever, the and all I think all theater students should do this.

[36:51] Jimi: Like your first really, really honor and embrace your first entry into a show, right? Whether you're reading the script or listening to the cast album for the first time, it's the only time you will ever be able to have the quote unquote intended audience reaction.

[37:05] Tommy: And we've talked about this a dozen times.

[37:07] Jimi: Um my first time through this album, it just sounded like a great pop album.

[37:13] Tommy: Okay.

[37:14] Jimi: And it was really, really hard to unpack.

[37:19] Jimi: Um, you know, like I had to Google a synopsis and like figure out what was going and like learn the names of the characters.

[37:27] Tommy: Like there aren't character names and songs and stuff.

[37:29] Jimi: And like I get it, you know. Like I I can be a smart theater goer. I'm not asking for my hand to be held so tightly all the way through.

[37:38] Jimi: But I think it is a a product of the form um that it's struggling against, certainly.

[37:44] Tommy: Yeah, I I definitely give you that.

[37:46] Jimi: Like, but I just think yeah, as a I don't know, just as an example of a jukebox musical, it it sits at the top.

[37:53] Tommy: Yeah.

[37:54] Jimi: Strong and proud, like it is it's so good.

[37:57] Tommy: It's so much better than Mamma Mia.

[38:00] Jimi: I I can take that back later on.

[38:02] Tommy: I know generally I don't disagree, but I think the You've spent when we did Mamma Mia.

[38:07] Jimi: I hate 20 solid minutes talking about how bad the lyrics for the winner takes it all were because she talks about rolling dice.

[38:15] Tommy: No, totally.

[38:16] Jimi: And now you're saying that's better?

[38:18] Tommy: I'm I want to break up the the the linear binary of good and bad.

[38:23] Jimi: It's a matrix, right?

[38:25] Tommy: Like, okay, there are things that I think Mamma Mia does better than this show.

[38:30] Jimi: I will stand by that.

[38:32] Tommy: As in the in the realm of jukebox musicals.

[38:35] Jimi: Do I enjoy one more than the other?

[38:37] Tommy: Absolutely.

[38:38] Jimi: I enjoy Jagged Little Pill much more than Mamma Mia.

[38:41] Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[38:42] Jimi: And they're serving, I think that's also the other half, is they're serving different purposes.

[38:46] Tommy: They absolutely are.

[38:47] Jimi: No one's standing up in the audience and clapping along to like I'm here to remind you in Jagged Little Pill.

[38:54] Tommy: Right.

[38:54] Jimi: Except when they stand up for the mid-song ovation.

[38:57] Tommy: Right, exactly.

[39:00] Jimi: Construction.

[39:00] Tommy: Yeah.

[39:02] Jimi: Um, so I don't know. It's an interesting, it's an interesting addition to the canon to me.

[39:06] Jimi: I wonder, you know, in a different world where theater wasn't all cancelled right now, I wondered if it would be get more.

[39:12] Tommy: Um, there's been uh uh whispers and talk for years about like when is Gaga gonna do uh uh Broadway show or you know screw it, anyone in that world.

[39:25] Jimi: Britney Spears, Pink, like Britney Spears is coming.

[39:25] Tommy: Britney Spears is coming, of course.

[39:30] Jimi: Um, but like it have they said, will it be this or Jersey Boys?

[39:35] Tommy: You know?

[39:36] Jimi: I think it's this.

[39:37] Tommy: Okay.

[39:38] Jimi: That's exciting to me, frankly.

[39:40] Tommy: But I do yeah, Jimmy's shaking his head now.

[39:43] Jimi: I would rather this than Jersey Boys, and I'll see.

[39:48] Tommy: I see the but I see the problem with the limited number of Broadway theaters and the limited like talent pool of what we have around like I'd much prefer a strange loop over either of them.

[40:00] Jimi: Right.

[40:01] Tommy: You know, like I w I would prefer a new original musical by Alanis Morissette with this plot.

[40:11] Jimi: Okay.

[40:13] Tommy: Yeah, okay, fair.

[40:14] Jimi: You know what I mean?

[40:15] Tommy: Yeah, I will 100% give you that.

[40:17] Jimi: And I would love to see that.

[40:18] Tommy: Yeah.

[40:18] Jimi: Because what I think is she's extremely capable of it.

[40:23] Tommy: Yes.

[40:23] Jimi: Yeah.

[40:23] Tommy: I hope.

[40:24] Jimi: From those two songs, yeah.

[40:26] Tommy: From Smiling Your Predator, Incredible musical theatre songs.

[40:31] Jimi: Yes.

[40:31] Tommy: A pair of them.

[40:32] Jimi: Yeah.

[40:32] Tommy: She's a good theatre writer.

[40:35] Jimi: Yeah.

[40:36] Tommy: And I would say, even before I knew they were original songs on my first listen to, they stood out to me as different.

[40:42] Jimi: Yes, I I agree.

[40:44] Tommy: They just there's something special about them.

[40:47] Jimi: Yeah.

[40:47] Tommy: Yeah, for sure.

[40:49] Jimi: Um.

[40:50] Tommy: Yeah, I I yeah, completely agree.

[40:52] Jimi: So, well, here I think that that kind of works as a segue.

[40:55] Tommy: Let's do it.

[40:55] Jimi: Hop on.

[40:56] Jimi: Here we go.

[41:05] ♪ Musical number: "Ironic" — performed by Jimi and Tommy ♪

[42:13] Jimi: And an apprehensive name.

[42:23] Tommy: There's some underestimated and impatient little girl praising her spooky.

[42:35] Jimi: Yeah, it's bluish again.

[42:38] Tommy: Shia LaBeouf.

[42:39] Jimi: Love him.

[42:41] Tommy: So yeah, I think let's let's talk a little bit about the the existence of it.

[42:48] Jimi: Yeah.

[42:49] Tommy: In its physical uh realm.

[42:51] Jimi: Totally.

[42:53] Jimi: Um yeah, I think uh the production, because it's it's interesting what you were saying there about like uh I would I would rather see uh an an ex produ uh an original, you know, sure, yeah, plopped in there.

[43:08] Jimi: Um I think one of the reasons why I love this so much is I don't feel like it's taking up space.

[43:17] Tommy: Unnecessarily.

[43:18] Jimi: What do you mean?

[43:19] Jimi: So as in I don't think there should be something else in its place.

[43:24] Tommy: That's fair.

[43:25] Jimi: Right.

[43:25] Tommy: Like art if art music.

[43:27] Jimi: If we're gonna be making a jukebox musical, yeah.

[43:29] Tommy: If we're gonna be making a jukebox musical in 2020, I want it to be this.

[43:29] Jimi: Yeah.

[43:29] Jimi: I want it to have a purpose that isn't just let's celebrate the songs of Alanis Morissette.

[43:40] Jimi: The work went into it.

[43:43] Tommy: Absolutely, like absolutely, and I think that's the thing. Like, it doesn't feel like let's celebrate the songs of Alanis Morissette. It's I'm going to the theatre to see a show. Whereas Mamma Mia's is like, when are they gonna sing Waterloo?

[43:55] Jimi: Exactly.

[43:56] Tommy: Yeah. Are they gonna sing it again?

[43:57] Jimi: Yeah, that's fair.

[43:58] Tommy: Exactly. And I also I wonder as well, like in terms of the book, is that why they get "Hand in My Pocket" in ironically very early? That I wonder if that was, you know, when it was still on a bulletin board discussion.

[44:11] Jimi: That's a good theory.

[44:13] Tommy: Is like we wanna do ironic, lampshade it in the question that everyone's had about it for years and get it done with so we can get back to the plot. It genuinely kind of feels a bit like that, as a sort of like there you go, enjoy, let's get on with the show.

[44:28] Jimi: Yeah, you know what I mean?

[44:29] Tommy: Yeah.

[44:29] Jimi: And I kinda don't mind that. Like I kinda don't because that is the kind of for those people that are in the audience because that's the one they know.

[44:38] Tommy: Right.

[44:38] Jimi: Um, and that's because I've, I Alanis Morissette, she's a pop song, this will be a great show, and I've got no idea what they're actually gonna be coming to see.

[44:46] Tommy: Yeah, like that I kinda love because it is a little bit like a what, yeah, I know I'm, I think that's great. I mean that's the fun home kind of track too, is like, oh let's go see this Alanis Morissette show, what's up with this, right? And you're like, we'll show you what's up with this, get ready.

[45:01] Jimi: Right, you know, fashion for seat belts like—

[45:01] Tommy: Exactly, exactly. Um so yeah, so the actual production now, Jimi and I, we could pretend that we saw it on stage. Shall we pretend that?

[45:14] Jimi: We'll pretend.

[45:15] Tommy: Jimi and I both saw this on stage.

[45:17] Jimi: Fully, completely, yep.

[45:19] Tommy: Um but it was interesting though, because like when we were in New York, yeah, this was the talk of the time.

[45:28] Jimi: Totally.

[45:28] Tommy: Well and I wonder if it's like see it. I've also had this thought, it's been interesting to try and unpack some of the fandom around this thing, because certainly it had the out-of-town try-out that was lauded. Like people loved it, and then it moved and then was getting also great notices. And then there is the post-March post-COVID kind of fandom around the thing. And I'm curious, you know, we'll never know what its journey would have been, right?

[45:57] Jimi: Yeah.

[45:57] Tommy: It's interesting to watch its journey now as like one of the last things that happened, you know.

[45:57] Jimi: For sure.

[45:57] Tommy: One of the last new things that happened before we all had to stop doing new things. Um I wonder if like where it would be right now if we were prepping for the Tonies after four more musicals had opened.

[46:19] Jimi: You know, comparing and talking about Mrs. Doubtfire.

[46:22] Tommy: Like.

[46:22] Jimi: Yeah.

[46:24] Tommy: I have an inkling it would still be open.

[46:26] Jimi: I think so too.

[46:27] Tommy: And I think it would be doing quite well.

[46:29] Jimi: Yeah.

[46:29] Tommy: I think so. I like Alanis Morissette is big enough.

[46:32] Jimi: Yeah.

[46:33] Tommy: Right? Let's be fair. And then the album Jagged Little Pill is big enough. And because it's the 90s, um, we know the average Joe theatregoer was listening to pop music in the 90s.

[46:45] Jimi: In the 90s, totally.

[46:47] Tommy: So today they're like, I know that one.

[46:49] Jimi: Yeah.

[46:50] Tommy: Well, and off we go. Let's also say, you know, in the same way that like Hadestown kind of stumbled into why we build the wall. Um, you know, this show has and certainly we've been talking about these things for several years now, but some of the kind of, I don't know, this is the wrong term for it, but protest culture um and like issues that this show talks about have been placed under a magnifying glass in the preceding six months after it opened.

[47:18] Jimi: And it absolutely magnifies it and you know, exemplifies its importance and you know puts it in the hearts and minds of those who are seeing it.

[47:27] Tommy: Absolutely.

[47:28] Jimi: I just realized I just did a visual thing there but yeah, it's like finger massively on the pulse.

[47:33] Tommy: Yeah.

[47:34] Jimi: Yeah, yeah, absolutely which is interesting for something, you know, conceived over 20 years actually premiering in 2018.

[47:44] Tommy: I know it's strange because like part of me is like does that give me hope or is it the opposite?

[47:51] Jimi: Right.

[47:52] Tommy: Yeah is it always gonna be like this or is it like is it like that thing of like there's always stuff and we always keep pushing through right or is it like there's always stuff.

[48:01] Jimi: Well it is I this is let's go for the positive one. This is a huge segue but my YouTube suggested to me Tim Minchin in Jesus Christ Superstar have you seen any of this production at all? I'd never, I did not know it existed.

[48:16] Tommy: Seriously? Yeah.

[48:16] Jimi: Um and it must be there they're talking about the Occupy protests at the time is that does that timeline jive?

[48:25] Tommy: Yeah.

[48:26] Jimi: But it's this huge epic concert production Tim Minchin plays Judas um and I only watched "Heaven on Their Minds" and Tim Minchin is ridiculously autotuned which is a topic for another day. But there is this like Jesus is the protest organizer and the police in riot gears are at the top of the stairs at the Capitol or whatever um and like it could have been about right now. I can tell by how close people are together and that they're not wearing masks this was not made right now but even just some of the pure imagery around the whole thing and then the issues that it informs, you're like, oh huh, interesting.

[49:03] Tommy: And I had that same thought. Like, I don't know if I'd like that, or if it's a sign of like, well, we're just stuck in the same couple circles spiraling like a tornado down the drain.

[49:14] Jimi: I think like with Jagged Little Pill though, I think like that album when it came out for so many people because it's such an honest album and it was like deeply refreshing. And it's one of those things like that period in the 90s was an extremely good period for singer-songwriter pop rock. But there was something about Alanis Morissette I think of being so young and honest and kind of getting the backlash that she got from it for being a young, honest female speaking about issues. Like that I don't know to me like looking at the path it's gone through now and now looking at how we view things like sexism and how we view things like sexual abuse. Like she was talking about it then and people were listening to it and going but now we're really listening to it.

[50:14] Tommy: Yeah.

[50:15] Jimi: Like we hear it now.

[50:16] Tommy: Yeah, it's like she's whatever the opposite of like doing the thing in the 90s that gets you cancelled now like she did the other way.

[50:26] Jimi: Uh-huh.

[50:26] Tommy: She was like big duck I don't know what the offset catalogue right I don't know what the other what the album either but it is it's a fascinating thing about this show and like also one that's made sets it apart from other jukebox musicals. Like American Idiot is still set in the early aughts and is a period piece of itself right? Mamma Mia's kinda whenever. You know, Jersey Boys is setting its time, right? Um this one to reset songs that were written for one era in a different era.

[50:56] Jimi: Yep.

[50:58] Tommy: Is interesting.

[51:00] Jimi: In a very much a different era.

[51:02] Tommy: This is pre-Mobile Thorns.

[51:04] Jimi: Yeah.

[51:04] Tommy: Like, and they totally could have made this a show of the 90s, right? And leaned into that a little bit and made it a choice and like evoke some of that nostalgia and invented nostalgia. And they made a clear decision not to.

[51:20] Jimi: Which is interesting to me.

[51:21] Tommy: It's an interesting artistic choice.

[51:24] Jimi: Well, I'm gonna do I'm gonna screech the brakes on this conversation because we're delving into book chat, which is so we're gonna steer back into talking about the production. So what did you think about the production?

[51:35] Tommy: I uh it must be, it must be a blast to see live, certainly.

[51:41] Jimi: Um I can see—

[51:41] Tommy: It was.

[51:46] Jimi: Yeah, it was when we were there.

[51:47] Tommy: Um for real.

[51:47] Jimi: Um and not behind whoever kept setting their phone down behind the person who kept moving in front of them. Um there were times when I very much enjoyed the ensemble and the choreography, and it felt like it was very much informing the action and creating a world around it. There were times where it felt like, and I mean this with the most love, um the SNL high school uh theater production bit.

[52:17] Tommy: Um we're like, there are five people in this scene, but we need a reason to pull out all thirty of the people so they can dance on the table around people while they pretend they're not there. Um and it went back and forth between seeming very intentional and you know, creating a world around the story, um, and then to the other side about like choreography, let's look at it, you know, and let's let's and now we're dancing.

[52:44] Jimi: Um even and as much as I adore "You Oughta Know" the dance break at the end, and I get it, and I have, you know, as I love dance, and I see it as you know, when it whatever the truism is, like when you can't when you stop talking, you start singing, when you can't sing anymore, you start dancing. I get it. And when you have this really, you know, certainly loud but also intimate uh uh uh morning song about like where your life is, you know, and and how sad you are about something, and then for everyone else to come in and kind of keen with you through dancing, and like hip hop dancing, it took me out of it in some moments.

[53:29] Tommy: Wow, yeah, honestly, and I and I knew this was gonna be a difference between us.

[53:34] Jimi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[53:35] Tommy: I mean, we have that anytime there's something that features dance, we have this conversation.

[53:40] Jimi: Absolutely because I think we do sit on opposite sides of the fence.

[53:43] Tommy: Like for me, I think it is the thing that drives the narrative, and you disagree.

[53:49] Jimi: You know, I mean like and don't get me wrong, I think there are gorgeous moments of dance and choreography in this that absolutely elevate the story to a level unparalleled. And there are times where I'm like, I kinda like we didn't need to dance right now.

[54:04] Tommy: You know, I get, I get like a Jerry Herman Hello Dolly dance break vibe where I don't want one, right?

[54:11] Jimi: Okay, fair.

[54:12] Tommy: I like it in a Jerry Herman sense, I don't like it here.

[54:15] Jimi: Uh-huh.

[54:16] Tommy: I think for me, like, but again, maybe it comes from really liking the album.

[54:22] Jimi: Like it what I think the chorus provide, and we talk about this quite a lot as a company.

[54:31] Tommy: Sure.

[54:31] Jimi: Then you can see kind of people's talking about them.

[54:35] Tommy: 100%.

[54:37] Jimi: Greek chorus style.

[54:38] Tommy: Yeah.

[54:39] Jimi: You know, we're always there. And to me, that's exactly what they are. Like, and I, I don't know. Like at no point did I feel like you shouldn't be here.

[54:53] Tommy: Yeah.

[54:53] Jimi: Like it just felt like it felt like because if you think of the big kind of dance numbers, sure.

[54:59] Tommy: Right in a fresh conference, uh, Unprodigal Daughter, "You Oughta Know."

[55:02] Jimi: Yeah.

[55:03] Tommy: Um they're such rocking songs. Like they are really like deep emotive. And for 16-year-olds, like, I don't know, like when I'm thrashing about to Evanescence, right?

[55:15] Jimi: Right.

[55:15] Tommy: I picture 30 other people around me thrashing about too. Like, that's how much you feel, right?

[55:22] Jimi: And for me, it's just that like explosion, they're not identifiable people, they're just extensions of Joe.

[55:29] Tommy: Yeah.

[55:29] Jimi: No, absolutely. And I do also see, like, um, like, I think this goes to the jukebox thing in that these songs already exist. These songs are so heightened that if you just stick one person in the middle of the stage to do it, it feels like something's missing, right? You need something bigger there.

[55:49] Tommy: And so, like, I see how we how we got there, how a production meeting led to this discussion of, you know, do we have an ensemble? Does the ensemble exist beyond portraying characters outside of real moments? On the other hand, you know, what's in the back of my mind, and certainly because of the Tom Kitt connection is Next to Normal, which I think draws a lot of parallels with this show. Where if, you know, in the middle of "Didn't I See This Movie" a chorus of 30 teenagers comes out and starts dancing around Alice Ripley, I'd be taken out of the moment.

[56:26] Jimi: You would be if that was the first time they appeared.

[56:29] Tommy: But if they were in it from the start, I don't know if you would.

[56:33] Jimi: Because that's the thing is like the chorus opened the show.

[56:37] Tommy: Right.

[56:38] Jimi: Right? It's just them on stage in the overture.

[56:40] Tommy: Yeah.

[56:41] Jimi: Um and they're doing the like that's the thing is like it's such a to me it's a really intelligent style because they're not breaking out into different styles. They're not, you know, they're not just like dancing. Like that's the thing is this the choreography from Sidi Larbi Cherkaoui.

[57:02] Tommy: Cherkaoui I think it's Cherkaoui.

[57:04] Jimi: But yeah, so it like I think it's really intelligent because it feels like one constant flow. It doesn't feel like here's your dance break, this is your tap number.

[57:15] Tommy: Yeah.

[57:16] Jimi: You know like I absolutely see that and it's a style that I don't know how I feel about. Where in something like, and I know we have divisive opinions about let's say the choreography in Hamilton but the ensemble in Hamilton seems more intentionally stationed as abstract like they are always abstract and something about it does continue that conceit right whereas something about because the chorus does every once in a while go back and forth in this between being like very real students and other outside characters to being the consciousness and how that's telegraphed didn't quite jive for me at times.

[58:05] Jimi: Like what's the difference between and it like I think this is an improvable thing. I think this is something, you know, like this was a good thing. But they have different costumes. Or something, right? Or they did have the like they do, and and like the conscience has fair the very own like like hyper nineties style. And then for when they're playing character uh playing characters, they change into naturalistic. For for whatever for reasons I can't pinpoint, and I understand that's my own fault. I it's it didn't translate. It was difficult in some moments to not view them as 30 people walking into this family's living room. Right, okay. You know, and those were the mo or like twelve people standing around this one person while they have an internal monologue.

Uh-huh. And I don't know. And and I think it's cool. I want it to work, and it didn't work for me, and I'm struggling to articulate why. But I wonder, like, I wonder if this kind of comes back to your bias of this is a jukebox musical, so already your haunches are out of and you're waiting for it to not work. Already I'm I'm looking for nitpicky things. I think that's absolutely a potential.

[59:22] Tommy: Um so because it's amazing. The comp the comparison to Hamilton, I think, is really interesting because I actually think they're they're really similarly utilized. Um totally. I think Hamilton's just so seamless and because it's because i because it's a song through show, like it it the ensemble. Right, it's totally easier to have them kind of like the tie arrive completely. Yeah. Whereas like the ensemble don't pop up in a book scene and they're just like, Right, exactly. And I wonder if the judges, yeah. I wonder I wonder if that would have helped me with this. If the ensemble Yeah, that's fair. I think that would have been so weird. It'd be something I'm interested if they workshopped. It'd be something I'dn't be interested in.

Because I do think, you know, in this kind of way we're doing all the musicals in 2020 these days, where like we put the band on stage and like really minimal sets, you know, we're not trying very hard to evoke a place or a location or impress you with our production value. We're trying to impress you with our cleverness um and our our peopleness, um, and our representationalism. And so then y you become hypercritical of the representationalism because that's all there is. It is so barren. You know, there's a couch and a tree and a desk and then a guy playing the keyboard and then the harmonica and big projections of slightly evocative imagery, right? And so every choreographic choice become like enters under higher scrutiny there.

And like if you play some of these numbers at point five speed, there are things that just like and now we're just clapping, you know, and now we're just doing this thing. And I don't know if this is my own deficit in choreography analysis or as you mentioned, my own bias around some of this stuff. But nevertheless, it is something I felt. It still exists.

[01:01:10] Jimi: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, yeah. And no one can take that away from you, Thomas. Yep. Uh the way you hold your hat, the way you sip your tea. Something, something, all that. They can't take that away from me. We don't often do, like, you know, and then the music starts, and you know, we take a tangent into musical numbers. No, we don't, we won't be starting. Um, I think one of the things I really want to commend though, while we're talking about the choreography, is specifically one person called Heather Lang, um, who uh features in two numbers really predominantly um the number Predator and Uninvited. Yes. So she does the same thing in both of them, which I think is cool. Uh basically, she plays a sort of mirror world version of In Predator Bella and in Uninvited uh MJ.

Um, and we'll come back when we start talking about the book. I'll be talking about this again. Um but just in terms of the work that she does on that stage, it's sensational. And we've not seen it on Broadway, we've not seen it on Broadway full stop. It is a thing that struck me. One of my earliest, like as a as a lighting design major, the first things they put you on are the dance concerts, because there's a lot of opportunity for her, you know. Oh, dude, it can be orange, who cares, right? Which is untrue, but it's an easy place to put naive lighting designers and you know, make them flash some lights a couple times. And so I have lots of early experience in like this contemporary dance world, and seeing legitimate contemporary dance, not like Broadway contempt dance. Yes in this show, it's cool, and you're right. New. And it works.

[1:02:52] Tommy: And it works, it really does. It totally works, and like hats off to Elizabeth Stanley, because she keeps up. Yeah. She really keeps up. Like, I don't know. Like that number, because Uninvited is one of my favorite Alanis songs. I think it's a really interesting song. It was when I was younger, I was I was obsessed with it. Um so I was obviously so eager when I saw it was in this show, I was like, How are they doing that? Yeah. And listen to it on the cash recording actually wasn't that pleased because it wasn't a huge domain. Yeah. But in person. So it is in the plot, Mary Jane is overdosing. Um then her physical cipher. Just herself, like appears embodied by this wonderful dancer, Heather Lang, and there's this mirroring of like commentating on what you, the other person is doing.

You know, it is for for the comparison's sake. Didn't I see this movie and like you know, Next to Normal does this, right? It's a cool moment, but the the contempt dance. They don't do it as well. No, they do not do it as well. I think Deanna's just lying down rather than standing up and she's walking out. There's no contemporary dance. You get you get a joke about it, basically like, oh, I thought that was her on the gurney, but really she's over there. I do I wonder if if this is my difficulty, if in these moments that I struggle with choreography-wise, where we're seeing this very legitimate contemporary dance ideology imposed upon musical theater, and if I do want something a little more musical theater in those moments where it's less like I'm emoting through my body, and more like we're supporting the dramatic action on stage.

And then in in the other moments where I've like, I wonder if that's what I want is a more hybridization of you know, contemporary dance where it supports the story and like is the story through what we're doing and moving story and less contemporary dance where we're closer to that kind of book musical ideal. Maybe that's a way to articulate my difficulty. I wonder.

[01:05:07] Jimi: But then so like what do you think about the the like clapping and hand in my pocket? Yeah, I I don't really like it. That's more your classic musical theater. I don't and and that book, like hand in my pocket, and like don't get me started on the choreography in Ironic, and I think the problems start at the beginning. But like, you know, ironic ironic, they all the students just suddenly start it looks like a really good high school production. Like I think this is what I meant by my SNL comparison. It's like we gotta we gotta give the ensemble one more number, let's put them in the desks behind them, and they'll kinda roll around and blah blah blah looks great. And also doesn't support the story.

Um yeah, I think you're yeah, no, you you you pull a good point there. I don't know what I want. And I would say, like, because I would say they are they are they are weaker because they're just you do feel a bit like you're just dancing. Yeah, like classic musical theater style. Hand in my pocket, Joe jumps up on a table and they kind of move the table around and then they keep moving it around, you know. But like on the other hand, um head over feet with the little swing set thing, um, which is featured in an adorable clip from rehearsal um that we should find and put in the show notes where they have the the spinning swing set for the first time. It's really fun. It's really appropriate. It's it's good, like set-informed choreography, it's very musical theater. Um but has this kind of contemporary dance edge to it that's cool.

[01:06:33] Tommy: Yeah. I I'm excited about the intersection of these things. I think I want more rules and codes. Not rules, but you know, best practices. Uh-huh. I think it's definitely something we're seeing a lot more of because even um with uh new west side story. Sure. Which obviously just happened, um, there was much more flavor of that. Fiddler in the Roof, the recent revival with Hoffa Schechter. Um although it was more traditional, um, it was pardon the pun by the way. Um it was still very fresh and like in that very modern contemporary choreographer way. Um so I don't know, I to me like that's the kind of dance that really excites me because it feels fresh, it feels new, and it feels very appropriate when you're doing musical storytelling.

[01:07:24] Jimi: Totally that you have story you know, storytelling to the dance. Yeah, I would love, and I can't think of an example off the top of my head, a show that can go from hip-hop to tap dance and back again, you know? Um even that's a poor example, contemporary dance, like this sort of stuff, but also let's somewhere in the middle we're gonna do a kick line. Um I don't know if it would work. I just don't know if it would work. I think it would just feel it would make one of them look bad. Sure. Yeah. I I yeah. I guess I don't know if I want one, but I'm curious about like how big you draw your circle there, you know. I'm gonna give you a little bit of an example here of a chorus line. Sure. Because of course, although it's not contemporary dance because it was the 70s and we weren't. It's contemporary of its time, yeah.

You know what I mean? Like for example, so like the montage section in that, even going into like um music in the days of the music. Yeah, yeah. Where it's very it's still quite abstract. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And then you've got the juxtaposition of one. Right. Which is very but rigid and musical theater. That's different. Right. Because it makes a point. And it's it's playing with your with your diagesis and non-diagesis of the choreography in the moment. But I I do I do see your point. And I do wonder because we play faster and looser with other styles in musical theater, right? You know, there are shows that can bounce back and forth between a blues song and a country song and a musical theater song. But we oftentimes it's not good.

[1:08:56] Tommy: Yeah, that's a fair a fair point. Well, I think sometimes it's good when it's suited to the content. Right. You know, Sandy talks about this all the time. You know, you you you pick the the genre or whatever that's gonna suit what you're doing. And it's the it's the struggle with the jupex musical, the genre's picked for you beforehand. And so perhaps a through line of like a choreography circle that matches that is congruent. Yeah. All that to say, great dancing. It's fun to watch. I good news. Man, we sure had fun seeing it live in person. It was energetic. Jagged little pill, people, if you're listening to this in the aftertimes, uh we'd love to come see your show. Yes, we absolutely would. Thanks, Alanis.

[1:09:45] Jimi: We are music. We are the thing number two. We are thinking to We are to believe something so I live. We are reasons to be there.

[01:11:16] Tommy: So we did. It's weird because we're about to talk about the book, and I feel like we've already heavily talked about the book. Right, first thing I'll say. It's oftentimes is the first thing people talk about when they talk about this show.

[1:11:40] Jimi: And they're very critical of it.

[1:11:40] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:11:42] Jimi: Seeing that there's too much going on.

[01:11:40] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:11:46] Jimi: I agree.

[1:11:48] Tommy: And I get it.

[1:11:50] Jimi: I agree and I sympathize.

[1:11:53] Tommy: With who that that why they put so much in.

[01:11:58] Jimi: Oh.

[01:11:58] Tommy: I think it's purposeful.

[01:12:01] Jimi: Really?

[01:12:02] Tommy: Yep.

[01:12:03] Jimi: Huh?

[01:12:03] Tommy: I think it's deeply intelligent.

[01:12:05] Jimi: Like, I uh it's one of those things.

[01:12:09] Tommy: We can't dispute Diablo Corte's rating ability.

[01:12:12] Jimi: It's it's great in moments.

[01:12:14] Tommy: R I really like it.

[01:12:16] Jimi: Right.

[01:12:16] Tommy: I think I think there are moments that stick out like a sore thumb.

[01:12:19] Jimi: Okay.

[01:12:20] Tommy: In the middle of Well I'd struggle with this because it's a show that's trying to make a lot of points.

[01:12:26] Jimi: Clearly, and is unapologetic about that.

[01:12:28] Tommy: And to your point of on purpose, right?

[1:12:38] Jimi: Um expect that. There's a throwaway line where um and it is a throwaway line, and I think this is why I struggle with it, where one of the random, you know, students at the time, uh tries to touch Frankie's hair, um, and Joe says, like, hey, don't touch her hair and like this is a thing, like stop asking to touch black people's hair. I get it. We're trying to make a point here. And I want more nuance with some of this. But I don't know, and I understand that's a problematic thing for me as a white man to ask, right? Like I I'm I live my problem there and I wanna name that. And I feel like a lot of you know, they're trying to shove a lot of issues into this, and it shows. Um you know, that's also the world we live in.

I get it. Right? Shit hits the fan all at once. This is the argument of naturalism versus realism versus metaphoricalism, right? Would would a show that deals with fewer, and I hate this term, but issues be able to land a little more nuance about them? But the thing is, right, I wouldn't say anything is done in poor taste.

[1:13:53] Tommy: Fair, totally. Right. I don't think they bring up any of the issues in poor taste. No, I think that's what's so crucial. And that to me makes it not um trivial. Yeah. Like uh so the the kind of want for nuance, what like what more do you want from that conversation? We already know what that conversation is. You don't touch black people's hair, you know what I mean? But I guess the question is like if the purpose of art is to change hearts and minds, and if your audience knows the answer to that question, uh-huh, why are we taking the moment to do it, right?

[1:14:28] Jimi: Mm-hmm. Well, I think so the basic right, just to kind of go from my perspective of why I think it it's intentional, why I think it works. Totally. Is at the moment, if you're a teenager, right, you're dealing with everything. Oh yeah. Everything, right? There is nothing that you are not getting shoved down your throat. And it's so interesting. I think reading critics and people about like writing about this, where they say there's too much going on, I'm like, yeah, because there is, like, there is too much going on. You can't focus on one thing at the moment, yeah, right? You just can't. You're not allowed that time. And to me, that is why one of the reasons why I love Jagged Little Pill so much is because it's this is a snapshot of the 2010s or 2020.

Like, this is this is a snapshot of right now where you are literally, it it is, it's a you know, roll the decks of issues, as you say like it it's nonstop and it's everywhere and I think to you know negate other issues for you know other storylines when actually the they all fit the characters they all serve a purpose yeah in this they're not that's to me they're not shoehorned in yeah they are real and authentic yeah um and I know that in the authorship of this show they took a lot of time to make sure that they were real and authentic they had many talks all of the actors did deep amounts of research um like it comes from a really authentic place so I actually think this idea of there's too much going on yeah I agree and it works.

[1:16:20] Tommy: I think you're convincing me and I am because I I had this thought my initial reaction was the same as the critics. There's too much going on and I can't and you know it's good that we have these conversations in order. I'm sure it is couched in my biases towards Dupakt musicals that inform some of my complications of the plot. Right.

[1:16:41] Jimi: Right. And I was fearful even before we had this conversation, like we've talked about before about uh with uh Lightning Thief, um around the you know critics being old folks not understanding the youth. Right. And I'm I'm fearful that now I've turned post thirty that I might be falling into that. Um you know, and like I see my my youthfulness flashing before my eyes. Um you know and clearly kids love this show. So it's do like it's right, right? Like and they especially the Zoomers these days, they will pull no punches critiquing your show, right?

[1:17:20] Tommy: Right, right. I i so you say kids love the show they don't love it enough. That's a fact it's not as big as it should be in my opinion. Like I'm curious if it's too didactic. Honestly.

[1:17:33] Jimi: What does that mean?

[1:17:35] Tommy: Uh this is a good time for me to learn what that means yeah no uh so um the like to tells you the story too prescriptive in its education. Um you were right um you know uh didacticism I first talked about when talking about uh Pinocchio um which is a very didactic children's book like don't tell lies to people or your nose will grow bigger okay yeah don't drink or you'll turn into a donkey um you know and I I feel honestly like the lessons that the show is trying to teach are didactic. I d I'm curious whether or not it's a problem.

[1:18:15] Jimi: Um and I I do you know there's a lot of comparisons in reviews and we've talked about it too uh uh of this show and hair and I think it's an interesting one because I don't know I see the comparison. I understand the comparison. I don't think this is like hair because I don't think any musical theater made post 1980 can be like hair because of how the musical machine has evolved right yeah, successfully could successfully. You gotta build, especially if you're gonna go to Broadway, you gotta build projections for it. You can't like go get high with your company yesterday and change the show tomorrow, because the lighting designer needs to know what 100 Qs he's gonna give to the you know drum synthesizer, right? Like the machine's not built for that kind of free love anymore.

[1:19:07] Tommy: And so I think that creates this kind of intentional issue building. And I see, you know, I I hear myself parroting uh right wing talking points, which is frustrating to me, right? Like I see the way in to say, like, oh, you know, they the they wanna brainwash us with their d with their morals about you know, uh uh uh how we should all love each other, right? I can see, you know, Gen Z or teenagers to begin with, the moment you tell them to do something, they're gonna be fuck you, I don't wanna do that, right?

[1:19:44] Jimi: And I worry that some of the intentional didacticism of this is uh is a turn off, right? And I think it walks a fine line. Like, let's talk about the uh drug addiction plot line. It's a legitimate struggle for MJ, and the struggle is embraced and extolled upon. Like, you know, we we talk about how tough it is, and like that she wants to kick her addiction, and that it's tough. And it's still there's still this like, well, you're gonna die, you know. There's still a like PSA is esque edge to the thing of like look at the badness, and not that like opioid addition is a good thing, and it's a question of like how much complexity can you put in a two hour show.

[1:20:31] Tommy: With all these issues. Like this is the thing. You know, I struggle with some of the protest motifs of this. Um the the company generally, um, but mostly Frankie, uh, kinda uh come to the aid of Bella. She's not believed about her sexual assault until the brother comes forward that he witnessed the thing, and there's a bunch of like very well choreographed numbers with like signs that look like they're, you know, uh uh grassroots homespun protest signs, but clearly a prop master worked a long time on them. Um and I have a a difficulty with something like that presented in that way, right?

[1:21:10] Jimi: Like the the ability to protest is a serious issue is important and protests are important, and and I I I mean it when I say I struggle with this. Seeing representation and honoring that as a strategy is super super important to me. And it is manufactured, and it is impossible to get past the fact that this is a fake protest, and there's a tightrope to walk there between you know uh homage and parody. Certainly not there, they're not intentionally parodying it, but is there a sense of uh exploitation or performativism in some of this presentation of quote-unquote issues?

[1:21:56] Tommy: Um it's it's a tight rope to walk with art, right? They're still charging money for this show, they're still making money off of this show, they're also changing hearts and minds, and the show wouldn't exist if it didn't make money because it lives in this capitalistic machine. So, you know, it becomes tainted a little bit, right? You know, what were the issues they're not allowed to talk about, or where were things softened a little bit because of corporate interests that we won't know about, or maybe they weren't, and that's awesome, and it's impossible for us to know, and so I st I all of this goes into a big struggle I have about how many plot points they're trying to tackle and why, like, you know, just hitting it with a blunt hammer all at once.

[1:22:38] Jimi: And I I absolutely take your point. We're all hitting all these issues all at once. You know, to be going through workshop week going back to in-person school during a global pandemic where we're talking about issues of anti-racism on our campus while we're all wearing a mask socially distance, like my brain's on fire to try and tackle all these things at once while we sit outside inhaling the smoke from the Colorado wildfires caused by global warming. Like I get it. It does all hit at once. And that is real life.

[1:23:07] Tommy: And sometimes I think, you know, I don't know if the show does a good enough job of telegraphing. Well, maybe it does. [1:23:17] Of telegraphing that the meta issue is the issue. That like the issue isn't just the individual issues, but it's all of them together. You know what I mean? Um maybe just by doing it, it does, as I said, developing, yeah. Because how how else?

[1:23:36] Jimi: Yeah, fair would it do it other than having a song like there's lots going on and that's what you have to realize. Like and really they kind of do. I mean, the finale is kind of like, yeah. You live, you learn like you live, like that is the you know I think just it's so um it yeah, it it just speaks to me because I went I read the reviews before I listened to the show.

[1:24:00] Tommy: Okay, so I went in to the show having this idea of like there's gonna be too much going on. Um, um and I was waiting for it.

[1:24:09] Jimi: Yeah, and I got it, and I I like heard it, and I was like, okay, yeah, but it just at no point did it feel like issues, sure, as we have spoken about before in other teen musicals, yeah, BMC, Lightning Thief, right, which are decent. Lightning Thief, I think is a bit better than Be More Chill, totally um, but I feel like for teams, right? This is their show, yeah.

[1:24:33] Tommy: This needs to be their show because this is the one that's respectful of teenagers as teenagers today, yeah. Do you know what I mean? It's not pandering, it's not saying, you know, oh, you're a female character, so all you get to do is be in watching like theater, like no, it's it's so much more than that, and it's like to me, I'm like that. If I was a teenager, yeah, I would be like, Yes.

[1:25:05] Jimi: I wonder though, let me pose this to you.

[1:25:09] Tommy: Uh-huh.

[1:25:10] Jimi: Because it's a it's a struggle I face with the teens I teach today. Life sucks, and sometimes they don't want to look at it. Right.

[1:25:20] Tommy: Right.

[1:25:21] Jimi: And so there's like a desire for escapism there, right? That this show, I would wager doesn't provide in ways that be more chill, technically a sci-fi horror piece, uh, or lightning thief, a you know, fantasy resetting of Greek myths, does allow for that extra layer to not just be to not just feel like you're reading the newspaper.

[1:25:49] Tommy: Right.

[1:25:50] Jimi: And I think absolutely fair, but as we've talked about before, there's times for escapism, and there's times when you want to be in amongst it. Totally.

[1:25:57] Tommy: And I think this is the only time in this century that we have this.

[1:26:04] Jimi: And it's interesting, I think to pull it back to the hair comparison. Um teenagers going to see hair and getting excited about hair, yeah, will be excited about all of these things because they're like, this is everything we're seeing, and this is this is the real world.

[1:26:21] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:26:21] Jimi: And I feel like Jagged Little Pill, yeah, for the most part, I'm not saying it's perfect, but for the most part, I think is like hi, right? This is the real world.

[1:26:30] Tommy: Yeah, especially to to you know what we would call the team musical theater audience these days.

[1:26:38] Jimi: Absolutely, absolutely. They are these kids.

[1:26:41] Tommy: So other than like the few examples that we've mentioned before about the book, you know, having little like absolutely, and hey, there's only a handful of musicals that have good books, right?

[1:26:53] Jimi: I mean like perfectly. What musical, you know, doesn't need help there.

[1:26:58] Tommy: Right, exactly. Um but I just think the intention of this is so correct.

[1:27:07] Jimi: I don't know why, I just think it feels very yeah appropriate.

[1:27:11] Jimi: Yes, it is it is refreshing to see alongside something like um uh Dear Evan Hansen, which does legitimately seem performative.

[1:27:22] Tommy: Um, exactly.

[1:27:24] Jimi: Like, and that's because there's no escapism really in Dear Evan Hansen, yeah, right?

[1:27:29] Tommy: That's fair, but actually there kind of is because nobody acknowledges the real point of that show that it's horrific, right? Like so here's uh real characters that are authentic and the right people are honored that are kind of the right people are dismissed.

[1:27:47] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:27:47] Tommy: It is, I like, and I think the struggle that I'm coping with is that like, you know, escapism versus magnifying glass on the world, and like we don't see the we're seeing the pendulum swing, I think, towards less escapism, more let's look at the world. Um and this is you know, this is it.

[1:28:10] Jimi: But I just think as well, like it, you know, just to swing it back to something like Be More Chill, can still have like good characters in a sci-fi story, it could just be less like we need to stick some issues to stay relevant to these kids, so let's have a bisexual character that we'll never call bisexual, whereas in this show, they're out and out calling them bisexual, and there's no holds barred about it.

[1:28:33] Tommy: It's not like so here's the bisexual song, like not at all. It's just no, let's just have a love duet thanks.

[1:28:40] Jimi: Yeah, it is, and like I wonder if part of it is, you know, I always want with a show like this, with entertainment, you have the hook and the point, right? You draw them in with the hook and then you make the point, and that's how we win hearts and minds. And I guess the hook of this is Alanis Morissette, and because of the way my brain is and my bringing up is that hook isn't there for me.

[1:29:02] Tommy: Right, okay.

[1:29:02] Jimi: And so I'm unpacking that, right? If I if that was why I went to see this show, I'd get it. And so I'm like kind of backforming that in my brain to then understand the show, I think.

[1:29:15] Tommy: Yeah, fair.

[1:29:16] Jimi: Fair, fair, fair.

[1:29:17] Tommy: Um, no, again, I think it's nifty. One of the things I think though, I think this would make such a good TV series.

[1:29:24] Jimi: Oh, yeah.

[1:29:25] Tommy: Absolutely. Like, if there was ever a way that you could make a narrative like that isn't about theatre and I I put Crazy Ex-Girlfriend in that bracket as well.

[1:29:37] Jimi: Sure.

[1:29:37] Tommy: As much as I think it's divine. Like just like a proper drama, like a drama.

[1:29:43] Jimi: A proper with songs.

[1:29:44] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:29:45] Jimi: Yeah, with songs.

[1:29:46] Tommy: Like a musical like I think this could work. And then you would have the opportunity to delve into things right a little bit more.

[1:29:54] Jimi: Yeah that you don't have in a two hour limit. I think it would be great. Because I I do agree like yes they brush over a lot and there's a lot of stuff that gets raised and they're like I kind of want to follow that story.

[1:30:06] Tommy: Right.

[1:30:06] Jimi: And it's that idea of like well you you don't get that opportunity in this time.

[1:30:10] Tommy: Right.

[1:30:11] Jimi: Sorry. But go read about it.

[1:30:13] Tommy: Yeah you know now you're aware that it's an issue that you're intrigued by.

[1:30:16] Jimi: Right.

[1:30:17] Tommy: Maybe go learn something. Like it's that kind of that kind of thing that I feel is good about it. You know I mean it's it is flag posting it but not in a hey we've talked about this it's not a it's not a throwaway line.

[1:30:33] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:30:34] Tommy: I really respect it for that.

[1:30:36] Jimi: Yeah. I really really do. Um yeah that's my thoughts.

[1:30:41] Tommy: I think you're convincing me.

[1:30:43] Jimi: I don't know. I think I it's yeah I think totally fair and I'm the thing is is like uh when I was saying about listening to it with the critics in my head right I was also listening to it because I love the music so much and after like listening to that cast recording I was very excited to listen to it straight away again.

[1:31:01] Tommy: Right.

[1:31:01] Jimi: And I haven't been doing so for six solid months. But um I think for me I was I am kind of looking for a what why is this like these are intelligent people, right? Talented intelligent people that are all working on this.

[1:31:16] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:31:17] Jimi: So what is it that they're getting right here? And I that's my take on it is actually they're just telling a story that is very real.

[1:31:24] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:31:25] Jimi: And there's something to be said about you know making space on the expensive great white way for a story like this with the sort of things it talks about. Um we're learning more and more about stories that don't make it there. And it's not it's not perfect, you know, having a entirely white creative team reproducing an aud you know already popular artists work on Broadway. There's some problems there.

[1:31:50] Tommy: Absolutely um and you know it's a it's a step.

[1:31:57] Jimi: Absolutely. It's all women.

[1:31:59] Tommy: Yeah which is cool. Fun Home is that is that it was Corinna's story yeah.

[1:32:05] Jimi: Um no because Waitress.

[1:32:07] Tommy: Uh right yeah you know we're seeing the upswing.

[1:32:10] Jimi: Yeah yeah yeah bit by bit uh so let's get some women of color and we'll be really on the right track.

[1:32:17] Tommy: Well and that's that's the hardest thing you know about the and you see it in the discourse these days about people you know we're we're quick to fall into the binary of things right this is good absolutely this is bad or people to make a a you know assumptions about you based on which way you seem to telegraph and it's all so much more complicated.

[1:32:37] Jimi: And you know things that are vectoring in the right direction are worth supporting while also acknowledging their f you know room for improvement let's say.

[1:32:37] Tommy: Yeah yeah yeah.

[1:32:37] Jimi: You kept me off balance with your charming deflection you kept me distracted couldn't pick this apart would start in his union turn to isolation and you are obsessed with your eyes my welcome sign is right my arm is forced enough to be worked by your design my trust is this magnet for predators is learning to be discerning okay let's take a bit of time just to kind of unpack some of these issues in a virtual commas.

[1:34:35] Tommy: So uh yeah, I think um because there's there is so much like good interesting content here. There's not happening, there is, there's a lot to unpack. Um I think the one I I kind of want to focus on is what I would say is like the core storyline which circles around um what happens to Bella and how that affects everyone else.

[1:35:00] Jimi: Um so I think one of the things that I love particularly about it because um uh first of all, I don't think this particular storyline gets talked about in near enough context in a in it from a musical theatre perspective.

[1:35:15] Tommy: No, not at all um particularly from the perspective that they're telling it. You know what I mean? Like very honestly, just literally having Joe and Frankie say, we believe you, right?

[1:35:29] Jimi: I mean in its own right, is like hugely powerful.

[1:35:32] Tommy: Yeah, and depressing that it's a huge powerful step, but also does it make it less huge or powerful?

[1:35:37] Jimi: Right.

[1:35:38] Tommy: It's yeah, exactly. And it was great, like when they said that I was like, Thank fuck. You know what I mean? Like, you know, I mean I was like, yes, you're getting this, you're telling it how it should be told.

[1:35:48] Jimi: Right.

[1:35:48] Tommy: Um absolutely. Uh but yeah, I think the relationship between Bella and MJ specifically is really really interesting.

[1:36:00] Jimi: So um again, if if you've not seen Majora or looked up the plot by now, do it, because there is a there's a lot going on. Um Bella um is sexually assaulted at a college party um uh when she was asleep, there was zero consent at all.

[1:36:18] Tommy: Um and there was no opportunity for her to give consent.

[1:36:23] Jimi: Um we find out throughout the course of the show um that MJ, Frankie's mother, um, at some point in her past, uh has also had a very similar experience.

[1:36:37] Tommy: Yes.

[1:36:37] Jimi: Um it's looking at the two I guess lenses that you can view this from a you know, more what's the thing before millennials? Uh that isn't boomers.

[1:36:51] Tommy: Are the is that X?

[1:36:55] Jimi: Gen X?

[1:36:55] Tommy: I don't know.

[1:36:56] Jimi: Like the our parent generation, yeah um, which is a bit more sweeping things under the rug, put on a happy face um than nowadays where we call out bullshit.

[1:37:08] Tommy: Right, you know what I mean?

[1:37:10] Jimi: Um looking at the struggles that parents have with that, you know what I mean, and how it they're unpacking their entire life here to get to a stage where they can get it.

[1:37:25] Tommy: Well, and you see MJ, so the the way the plot unfolds, it turns out uh MJ's son Nick was in the room when Bella was assaulted and said nothing of it, and Nick tells his mom this story, and her first reaction was, you can tell no one about this.

[1:37:43] Jimi: Yeah, um, even in spite of her own trauma.

[1:37:46] Tommy: And she comes on you know, this journey where eventually she says to Nick, like, you should say it, and you have to and he says, I already did.

[1:37:51] Jimi: I already did, yeah, exactly.

[1:37:53] Tommy: And he is like, and I again one of the things where I I think that Vic is really good is that doesn't come without it's price.

[1:38:00] Jimi: Yeah, yeah.

[1:38:00] Tommy: You know what I mean? He sacrifices uh a scholar or potentially sacrifices a scholarship to Harvard.

[1:38:07] Jimi: And he's um also not celebrated for it.

[1:38:10] Tommy: He has an exchange with Bella later where she's pissed at him. She's like, it's so it's so fucked up that they didn't believe me, but they believe you.

[1:38:19] Jimi: Exactly.

[1:38:20] Tommy: He is not the hero of this piece, it's not like thank goodness for Nick. It is very much like this is how you know I mean, you didn't do anything. Here's what you've got, which again is so refreshing in terms of storytelling, because it normally it would be like Nick saves the day and Bella's really grateful, Dear Evan Hansen.

[1:38:43] Jimi: Like it that is that's the story that we're used to.

[1:38:47] Tommy: We're not used to your main guy, your romantic, you know, elite guy getting called out for his bullshit.

[1:38:54] Jimi: Right.

[1:38:55] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:38:56] Jimi: It's and it's a new it's a new storyline, and to see it in something uh uh I would say it's a new storyline in its presentation, certainly not a new storyline in reality.

[1:39:07] Tommy: It's not your storyline, no.

[1:39:09] Jimi: Yeah, but the honesty and the correctness that is being talked about is to put it on stage is a huge step. And to put it on a musical theater stage where we're less good at dealing with in averted commas issues, um, you know what I mean? I think is just very good.

[1:39:27] Tommy: Um, but yeah, just the the way that the way that Diane Paulus is um kind of telling their combined storyline and the amount of times that Bella comes up in MJ's thoughts and vice versa.

[1:39:40] Jimi: Like the fact that MJ is brought in to Predator, I think is so smart because A, it's it shows that actually Bella's not alone in this. Do you know what I mean? Like Bella isn't by herself, and this isn't a problem that you have to struggle through because right other people are struggling with it as well.

[1:40:00] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:40:01] Jimi: Um but also it just helps build this picture of this generational divide.

[1:40:06] Tommy: Totally.

[1:40:07] Jimi: Well, and it does, you know, if we're talking about as I've approached the show as like art as a tool, you can absolutely see the the mom who brought her daughter to this Alanis Morissette show in New York for you know, to celebrate, and the conversation they have on the car ride home, right?

[1:40:27] Tommy: A hundred percent.

[1:40:28] Jimi: And the that this is a way into that conversation is is is important, like monumentally so.

[1:40:36] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:40:37] Jimi: Like mother-daughter stuff is but like that's my jam, like yeah, uh it because we don't get enough of it.

[1:40:43] Tommy: No, yeah, we just don't get enough of it, it's so frustrating.

[1:40:46] Jimi: But mother-daughter is so it's a a relationship that is not talked about. Weirdly, I've said before, one of the best examples I think is Mamma Mia to bring that back. But it's just not it's just not talked about well enough.

[1:40:59] Tommy: So yeah, I completely agree. I think that's a wonderful opportunity.

[1:41:03] Jimi: Um that it that it gives. The show doesn't for issues it presents which could stray into stereotypical presentations, yeah, it doesn't fall into them.

[1:41:14] Tommy: Like there's a the um Frankie and Joe's relationship and then adding Phoenix into the mix, allowing Frankie to discover her own bisexuality, or at least not discover even, although I guess just maybe perhaps discover in the opposite of what we would consider a traditional traditional is the wrong word wrong word, but you understand direction into that kind of queerness. Uh and then Joe's presentation as genderqueer and you know, kind of talking about this mold, you know, but but not after school specialing it.

[1:41:48] Jimi: Um not sitting down at a desk and like putting a nice bow around it. Um tidy. It's complicated. It is so and again, this is why I loved the book so much because it it isn't tight and to I think it would be insulting and denigrating to gender queer teenagers if they had the gender queer number.

[1:42:10] Tommy: Right. Exactly. You know what I mean? I just don't think like why not just give them this really cool pansexual love trio. Do you know what I mean? That is so much better. Like that's a much more authentic and real thing that I can respond to as opposed to like da-da-da.

[1:42:26] Jimi: Right. Well, and even uh who uh Steve is Steve the father, um Steve, yeah. And like Yes. Um and like Steve and Mary Jane's relationship, and like Steve is, you know, really into porn, um, and like they're kind of struggling with their marriage stuff. Like this is it's there are ways that these issues are presented, uh, but like through a glossy lens that we've seen before.

[1:42:54] Tommy: I would say even in you know, something like next to normal, something that was still pretty progressive for its time.

[1:42:58] Jimi: Yeah. You know, but talking about a marriage that's falling apart, but we're not really gonna dive into the specifics reasons why.

[1:43:07] Tommy: Exactly. Yeah. Because I think we we have we've talked about this before in the show, where it's like, I wish they would go deeper into this. I wish we go deeper into that. And they don't like Jack Little Pell isn't necessarily going deeper into it, but it's touching the bases, it's hitting the marks.

[1:43:23] Jimi: There is, we do live in this kind of there's like a level of uh boulderization. Can I use that term? Like um, you know, uh uh uh censoring for the sake of uh propriety of American literature that we just we like live there where you know from the moment where we were really concerned about uh Lucille Ball talking about being pregnant on television, and we weren't allowed to say pregnant and she had to be expecting, but everyone knows what she means, right?

[1:43:54] Tommy: Right, like there's just that baseline of like you can't really go all the way to talk about this real thing because people might be offended, and like I wonder this with a modern sensibility, but I'm also curious about a like of the time sensibility. Who was gonna be offended if she said pregnant, other than stupid people, like other than people that you shouldn't care about that this isn't for, and so and we do this all the time with relationships on television, like painting a slightly rosier picture for the benefit of our audience, and Jaguar Little Pill, for what it's worth, does break that mold, does shatter that window, and I think talk about the thing.

[1:44:37] Jimi: MJ's a really good example because she is constantly trying to paint that picture, she's constantly trying to cover the rose tinted glasses over everyone's eyes to make it seem like they are this lovely perfect family.

[1:44:49] Tommy: It's the whole framing device for the show. We start with her writing the Christmas card that's you know, here's the great things that are going, and we end with her writing the Christmas card that's like here's how fuck shit is.

[1:44:58] Jimi: It's all shit, yeah, exactly. And I love that. Like it's yeah, it's it's all shit, but we're better for it. It does it. This is something I have felt in recent months, and I wonder if Jagged Little Pill hit on it just a couple months early. But I do feel like those a lot of those social norms are falling down.

[1:45:17] Tommy: Um I notice it uh with like I know you've been very dutifully quarantining, but let's pretend you like saw a person in real life, and the first thing you say to them is hi, and then generally as humans, we ask a question.

[1:45:32] Jimi: Yeah. What question do you ask the human?

[1:45:35] Tommy: How is it going? Right?

[1:45:37] Jimi: Me too. Yeah. It's like a generic it this is how polite conversation happens. And I have noticed people answer that question honestly for the first time in my existence on this earth.

[1:45:50] Tommy: You know, a lot of people say, Man, I don't know. Or like, good as it can be, or today is better. Like and the previous polite assumption would be like, no, no, you don't actually tell people how it's going. You say it's good. It's good. Ah, the weather, right? Like, and then you have a conversation about it as well afterwards.

[1:46:09] Jimi: Right. And you know, we're starting to see some of these weird social norms break down. Like I have had more honest conversations with close people in my life about difficult issues in the past four months than I have in my previous 30 years on this earth.

[1:46:27] Tommy: You know, like whether I'm talking with my parents about racism or talking with my boss about how I, you know, don't want to be at school and it's fucked up that we live in this system where you know we're teaching now because of all this stuff. And like, this is stuff we didn't include in polite quote unquote polite conversation previously. You know, and I I wonder if Jagged Little Pill has hit on something there.

[1:46:51] Jimi: Well, that's it. I mean, when they talk about the show and they talk about what it's about, that's what they always say is they say i i the the main theme of the show is that you get nowhere unless you're communicating.

[1:47:04] Tommy: Yeah. Um and it like the it's it's all kind of held in this linchpin of um the song Mary Jane, yeah, where Steve is basically just thinking to Mary J for the first time, tell me how you are, but actually tell me how you are, I'm here for you and I wanna know. Um like that is the kind of that idea of like, yeah, you need to communicate. If you want anything to happen, communication is key.

[1:47:29] Jimi: And when communication breaks down, that's when shit hits the fan. And and that acknowledging that like polite communication is a breakdown of communication.

[1:47:40] Tommy: Exactly. That doesn't count.

[1:47:41] Jimi: Yeah, there's a difference between being polite and being honest.

[1:47:44] Tommy: Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

[1:47:46] Jimi: Um so uh you know I mean like if that's the thing, if there was ever a message that we needed for the moment, it's a great thing that we're having these conversations, like you say, that are honest and that are open for the first time and that will no doubt do a lot of great healing in the longer term, you know. I mean, that is a good positive step that we're all taking.

[1:48:11] Tommy: Yeah. You know, I mean, um So Jagged Little Pillmate nailed it.

[1:48:16] Jimi: Yeah. I have you know, like I think a lot about like how will future people look back on us. Um and I also think we have a uh new understanding of what the word history means. Even you know, pop music has started in the eighties and we haven't come up with a new term for it since.

[1:48:33] Tommy: Um so who knows how people will name things.

[1:48:36] Jimi: But I do I would propose and future historians, I hope you quote like please if you're listening to this in the far future on your hollow deck, you're welcome. Um I think this time in humanity could be termed the Great Reckoning.

[1:48:53] Tommy: I think it's a good I like it. I want to pitch it to you.

[1:48:56] Jimi: The Great Reckoning has negative connotations.

[1:49:00] Tommy: I see but I think we're turning what it means. Everyone's reckoning with what's going on.

[1:49:06] Jimi: And not like we have we have this preconceived conversation awakening.

[1:49:10] Tommy: Yeah but it's not an awakening because people are having to unpack their previous but they're awaking up to it.

[1:49:19] Jimi: But some of them aren't some of them are dealing with it. You know like I think awakening is too positive. Because there are people who are still dealing with their own you know preconceived insert issue here, right?

[1:49:33] Tommy: Uh-huh and are still finding the way to live in the mire of that as opposed to you know like I think we should begin retiring the term woke because you know in the same way you come out the rest of your life you're never just like woke once right you're always 100% you know waking up again and again and again and so that metaphor falls apart.

[1:49:56] Jimi: And so I think that's why I don't know think think about it.

[1:49:59] Tommy: We'll talk about think on it Tommy I'll think on it. Um isn't it strange that the penultimate song of action one is called Wake Up.

[1:50:07] Jimi: That's true. That's true. That's a great song.

[1:50:11] Tommy: It's a great song. This all the songs in this are great.

[1:50:14] Jimi: They are she's very talented and literally hats off to Tom Kitt for turning them into musical theater songs.

[1:50:20] Tommy: Yes, we didn't mention that, and I wanted to mention that earlier. Um it doesn't like it fits so well. They're they're better's the wrong word. It works.

[1:50:33] Jimi: It stops it from being just a pop album. Do you know what I mean? Like it stops it from like, well, I've got Jagolittle An as Marshall. Why do I then want to pick up?

[1:50:41] Tommy: Right. Which is kind of the way I feel about beautiful.

[1:50:45] Jimi: Sure. Because I'm like, Jessie Mueller has a lovely voice.

[1:50:48] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:50:48] Jimi: But so does Carol K. You know, I mean, like that kind of way, but the same with Jersey Boys, you know what I mean? Like I listen to just the Jersey Boys single songs.

[1:50:54] Tommy: Right.

[1:50:55] Jimi: Why listen to this new one?

[1:50:56] Tommy: Exactly. Different genders are singing different songs, and three people are singing it instead of it.

[1:51:03] Jimi: Yeah, and the the arrangement, like it is it is the perfect tightrope of honoring the piece as it is while also bringing a new flavor to it.

[1:51:14] Tommy: Absolutely.

[1:51:15] Jimi: And that vocal overture is something special.

[1:51:17] Tommy: Oh, it's wild. I always I and every time I get thrown off, for whatever reason, when Spotify starts, you know, it ends the album and is like, and now we'll start a radio based on what you've listened to. It always starts with the overture every time.

[1:51:31] Jimi: Oh interesting.

[1:51:32] Tommy: And if you do that, put the album on loop, you you wouldn't know.

[1:51:37] Jimi: It does it's it's a fun little thing, but like it ends and then it goes right back in, and you might end up three songs in before you realize you're listening to it again.

[1:51:47] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:51:50] Jimi: Yeah, exactly. It's a good I think that's a sign of a good structure.

[1:51:54] Tommy: Definitely.

[1:51:55] Jimi: Jimmy, I think you've convinced me to like this show.

[1:51:57] Tommy: Yay!

[1:51:59] Jimi: I don't need you to love it. I don't need it to be in your top ten.

[1:52:01] Tommy: Totally.

[1:52:02] Jimi: I just need you to appreciate it because I think it's special.

[1:52:04] Tommy: Yeah, I I think I do more than I did at the beginning of this podcast, which you know.

[1:52:09] Jimi: Great. Add it to the list with cats.

[1:52:12] Tommy: Are you enjoying your oat cake?

[1:52:13] Jimi: It'll be weird if the oat cake bit didn't make it into the audio bit of the podcast, but now you're eating an oat cake now.

[1:52:19] Tommy: You just need to go over to Patreon and subscribe, won't you?

[1:52:23] Jimi: Um, I just dropped it. The way a three-year-old would do how to eventually anyway the fire trust coming up around the bed.

[1:52:49] Tommy: You'll cry.

[1:52:55] Jimi: You mean you learn scream?

[1:53:04] Tommy: Thank you, and the dream.

[1:53:07] Jimi: Thank you, Roshaw.

[1:53:10] Tommy: Thank you.

[1:53:43] Jimi: That was Jagged Little Pill.

[1:53:45] Tommy: It was.

[1:53:45] Jimi: It was easier to swallow than I expected.

[1:53:48] Tommy: Hey.

[1:53:51] Jimi: Choice of Ant?

[1:53:52] Tommy: Choice of Anne?

[1:53:54] Jimi: Oh, he's also annoying.

[1:53:54] Tommy: Yeah, why is it?

[1:53:55] Jimi: Yeah, but just he had a song called Happy Little Pill.

[1:53:58] Tommy: Ah, see.

[1:53:59] Jimi: That's like whenever I try to Google into the woods but get into the wild stuff.

[1:54:03] Tommy: Uh what's that?

[1:54:05] Jimi: Oh, Emil Hirsch.

[1:54:07] Tommy: Very good film.

[1:54:08] Jimi: Oh, absolutely. And not what I'm looking for when I Google Into the Woods.

[1:54:11] Tommy: No.

[1:54:13] Jimi: Emil Hirsch and Into the Woods. Discuss another day.

[1:54:19] Tommy: For today, you have a quiz question for us.

[1:54:21] Jimi: I do. I do indeed. Hey, the late great talk show host uh and TV personality, Mr. Regis Philbin, sat in makeup for a whole three hours to play this musical's title character, even though he was never actually cast in the role.

[1:54:41] Tommy: What a maze and a mystery. Um if you want to get in touch with us, our show Twitter and Instagram is at Jim and Tomic or drop us an email on our website, Jim and Tomic.com J-I-M-A-N-D-T-O-M, I see.

[1:54:54] Jimi: And while you are there, you can check out our Patreon uh if you'd like to financially support the show. Um thank you once again to all of our wonderful current patrons.

[1:55:03] Tommy: Uh, a lot of new of you coming in.

[1:55:06] Jimi: Yeah, welcome friends.

[1:55:07] Tommy: Yep, since we started our brand new video podcast, uh Last Call, um, which you can see if you hop on over to our Patreon um and pledge uh into our five dollar tier over there.

[1:55:19] Jimi: Um yeah, we're gonna be keep going. They're a lot of fun.

[1:55:21] Tommy: I had a lot of fun, I'm not gonna lie. They're tons of fun to watch.

[1:55:26] Jimi: Um, but most of all, uh some of the best support you can give to us is telling your friends and people about this podcast or leaving us review in iTunes, or your favorite podcaster of choice.

[1:55:35] Tommy: Whenever I'm having a down day reading reviews on iTunes really, really helps bring up my spirit.

[1:55:40] Jimi: It's always a blast.

[1:55:41] Tommy: It's always a blast.

[1:55:42] Jimi: Indeed. Um, but hey, that's all for this week. Thank you for listening, Tommy.

[1:55:46] Tommy: Cheers.

[1:55:50] Jimi: Cheers You've talked about matrixes.

[1:56:05] Tommy: You've talked about vectoring.

[1:56:06] Jimi: Well, I think you're bringing I'm a math teacher baby.