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[0:00] Jimi: Don't want to pull it. Was what was it? Was that ragtime? It's only happened once, knock on wood. There was one time where we lost a recording and had to record a whole episode again. I've blocked it out if it was.

[0:13] Tommy: Are you serious?

[0:14] Jimi: Yeah, it was very early on. Um, and it's the only time we've had to go back and from scratch.

[0:21] Tommy: Was it Godspell? Was it Godspell?

[0:24] Jimi: In my brain it was ragtime, but I'm now curious. Have we done ragtime?

[0:27] Tommy: Um, we have done ragtime, but ragtime wasn't a long time ago.

[0:30] Jimi: It was definitely in the teens or thereabout.

[0:33] Tommy: Yeah, that would have... well, what are we gonna spell?

[0:36] Jimi: I genuinely have blocked this out.

[0:37] Tommy: Is that... and hey, they would never know. See if you could spot which one it is, which one sounds insincere.

[0:48] Jimi: What a terrible case. Don't give us the answers. Don't do that. We don't want to know.

[0:53] Tommy: Well, somebody get us another drink.

[0:55] Jimi: Welcome to Jim and Tomic's musical theater happy hour. I'm Jimi.

[1:00] Tommy: And I'm Tommy, and this is the only musical theater podcast with piano vocal scores and open liquor stores. Here we take apart your favorite shows. We model them together with a shot of buffoonery, and we pour you a refreshing glass of musical theater conversation.

[1:20] Jimi: Hey Tommy, what you drinking?

[1:22] Tommy: Did you see me frantically googling lyrics? Cause I thought like, oh, they must, they must.

[1:27] Jimi: They do.

[1:29] Tommy: One particular liquor.

[1:33] Jimi: In the first, I can't well they do I know not in Food Glorious Foods.

[1:38] Tommy: Gin!

[1:39] Jimi: Gin.

[1:40] Tommy: Shut up and drink your gin.

[1:42] Jimi: I was searching in the wrong gin. I'm drinking gin, Tommy.

[1:45] Tommy: Or no, you're Jimi. I'm drinking gin.

[1:46] Jimi: I'm drinking gin.

[1:48] Tommy: You're just telling yourself, I'm drinking gin.

[1:48] Jimi: I'm drinking gin.

[1:52] Tommy: I'm drinking gin.

[1:53] Jimi: Yes, you are.

[1:54] Tommy: You're drinking gin.

[1:55] Jimi: Uh yes, you are. Do you want to know why?

[1:58] Tommy: Why are you?

[1:58] Jimi: Well, the film version of this musical very nearly turned into a Mary Poppins reunion. Serendipitously, fate pulled both Julie Andrews and Dick Van Dyke out of the running for their respective roles.

[2:09] Tommy: What show?

[2:11] Jimi: That show is Oliver.

[2:22] Tommy: If we live till 84, all we ever get is true. Well, every day we say our prayer, all day changed a bill of there, still we get to say old grow. There's not a crust, not a crumb. Can we fight? Can we bake? Can we borrow all cash? But there's nothing to stop us from getting a thrill when we all close our eyes and demand.

[3:07] Jimi: Cold Jenny and Caston. Yeah, we need to make sure we see it as Oliver!

[3:13] Tommy: Yes.

[3:14] Jimi: In the long line of exclamation point musicals. How did that start? Did this start it?

[3:20] Tommy: I actually no no no. I have a theory about this.

[3:24] Jimi: Okay.

[3:24] Tommy: This couldn't have started it because Oklahoma has an exclamation point.

[3:27] Jimi: Precisely, and that is the key.

[3:29] Tommy: So we will be talking about in mere minutes. Um we will be talking about British musical theatre and a bit about its, you know, fun. Um but this being a very early one that made its way across the pond that was quite an important significant moment, right?

[3:49] Jimi: Um is it all because of the exclamation point?

[3:49] Tommy: Of the exclamation point, because what was the big in that started it all across the pond? It was Oklahoma.

[4:01] Jimi: Oklahoma.

[4:02] Tommy: And here we have Oliver. And guess what? So if the boyfriend had an exclamation if it was the boyfriend.

[4:08] Jimi: Yeah, maybe it would have done it.

[4:10] Tommy: It would have been the one. If Showboat was Showboat.

[4:15] Jimi: Huge.

[4:16] Tommy: Yeah. Hello Dolly was after in 64.

[4:19] Jimi: Yeah, we have to. I mean like Fiorello, but it doesn't matter because it's American. I mean like that's the first American one. This is in many ways the first British one.

[4:31] Tommy: Does fame have an exclamation point?

[4:33] Jimi: It doesn't, no, and it should. Maybe that when I finally go to grad school, my thesis will be on exclamation points and computer titles.

[4:42] Tommy: I think there's an essay there, Tommy.

[4:44] Jimi: You know, it is funny to me now, and I don't know how this thought entered into my brain, but I'm surprised Beetlejuice didn't put an exclamation point, because that's that brand.

[4:53] Tommy: Beetlejuice.

[4:55] Jimi: Same in the same way as you're in town.

[4:57] Tommy: Yeah, you're in town. Because also that's so stupid for you to like hey, do you know I mean this dismal, you know, post-apocalyptic locations. You're in town. Hooray!

[5:08] Jimi: Yeah, the underappreciated musical theater exclamation point.

[5:11] Tommy: Right, precisely. Anyway, Oliver.

[5:14] Jimi: So Oliver. Um music book and lyrics by Dave Malloy.

[5:18] Tommy: No, by Lionel Bart.

[5:20] Jimi: Lionel Bart, who uh we know him in the UK a great deal. Other than researching him for Oliver, I wouldn't have ever been able to tell you his name. I do also know, because I uh started reading a 300 page book, uh, it is a little deceptive to say that Lionel Bart wrote the whole thing. He certainly had a ton of help from his collaborators.

[5:41] Tommy: Yes, but um he still wrote the whole thing.

[5:47] Jimi: So yeah, it is his break, you know, I mean it is his brainchild, very much so. Um it is a West End Wendy. Um it premiered over here um in June of 1960, an old day. Yeah, um and was hugely successful and then did a a uh cross pond reverse transfer. The first of its kind, maybe one of the first of its kind. Not the first of its kind, but the first that was successful as well. Congratulations.

[6:17] Tommy: Had a pre pre-Broadway tour and then opened at the Imperial in 1963.

[6:21] Jimi: Yeah, pre-Broadway Tour, by the way, very interesting. We might talk about that at some point, because it's uh it's interesting. Um since then, many successful revivals both here, both there, both across the world. Um and it was also made into a very hugely successful movie adaptation as well in the late 60s. Um and here we are, we're talking about it right in this second.

[6:46] Tommy: A popular UK uh uh school production, correct?

[6:51] Jimi: Oh yeah.

[6:53] Tommy: Not as popular in the world, but even just like as a school production. Uh yeah.

[6:59] Jimi: So yeah, I would agree. Um it is ve well, it certainly was very popular over here. Obviously, you know, the kids like Hamilton now, so we can't do Oliver anymore. Um the the age of camp might be over for a bit.

[7:14] Tommy: Right, right, right, right. But it is a very good classic stalwart of uh primary school, high school, early high school musical theater. Um so your exposure to this is relatively new.

[7:29] Jimi: Pretty new. Um I certainly being the musical theater nerd I am, Oliver's always been on the outside of my periphery, you know, Food Glorious Food, have to pick a pocket or two. Um have been there. But you know, never read Dickens as a kid or as an adult at all, hadn't seen the movie, had never really sat down and listened to the soundtrack, so I'm coming at this one pretty fresh for how uh how much of a classic it is.

[7:54] Tommy: Yeah.

[7:55] Jimi: Um so well I do want me to feel the the plot. I you know I'm not very good when they're plotty, but I'll give it a go.

[8:01] Tommy: Well, I could I do you want me to try?

[8:02] Jimi: I think I could I want you to try because you'd probably still be better at it than I would be.

[8:07] Tommy: So Um uh Jolly old England. Uh uh v uh from a time Dickensian, it seems cheating to even to describe it.

[8:17] Jimi: Victorian.

[8:19] Tommy: Victorian England. Thank you. Um we're at uh uh an orphanage, um and all the kids are underfed and overworked, uh and uh reminisce about food when our our main character question mark, um Oliver Twist is dared to or draws the long straw, or on the stage version I think he just does it, um but goes and asks.

[8:42] Jimi: No, he also draws the long straw.

[8:44] Tommy: Does he? Okay. Um uh goes up and asks um what's his name, Mr. Bumble. I remember that 'cause I I wondered if his uh his lover's name was Mrs. Tinder.

[8:53] Jimi: Um it's not, but that would be better.

[8:56] Tommy: Um it's Mrs. Hinge.

[8:57] Jimi: That's his name.

[8:58] Tommy: Mrs. Hinge. Uh goes up and Dr. Grinder is their physician.

[9:03] Jimi: Okay, right. Sorry. There's gonna be a 40-year long summary.

[9:06] Tommy: Exactly. Asks um the most iconic line in the film, please uh have some more. And uh of course that is uh an expellable offense. Uh and so Mr. Bumble Flash Forward to Mr. Bumble uh is trying to sell Oliver on the streets of London, because that's a thing we used to do, maybe.

[9:27] Jimi: Um sells him to work at a funeral parlor. Um that doesn't go too well. Uh he kind of beats up on one of the workers there for making fun of his mom, um, who we know nothing about other than she's gone. Uh ergo Oliver is an orphan. Uh he escapes. The order of these things are slightly different depending upon your whether you're watching the movie or listening to the musical, but it's all the general thing. Eventually he m meets um perhaps the second most titular character, Fagan.

[9:57] Tommy: Um, I guess he meets the artful dodger first, who is a little kid who picks pocket picks pockets, um, who welcomes him to London. Um he's one of the family, apparently with everyone else on the streets of London. Um The Artful Dodger uh introduces him to Fagin, who runs this kind of cabal of uh uh young boys who pick pockets on the streets of London. Oliver gets taught how to do that, but perhaps thinking it's uh less insidious than it is, um gets uh caught up in uh pickpocketing scheme gone wrong by not Daddy Warbucks, whose name is something like that.

[10:37] Jimi: Uh Mr. Brownley or something like that.

[10:39] Tommy: Mr. Brownlee or Brunley, a rich guy who shows pity on Oliver and takes him in. He lives a rich life for a little bit until he's stolen back by uh Bill Sykes and Lucy?

[10:55] Jimi: Nancy.

[10:55] Tommy: Nancy, the girl. Bill Sykes is the meanest man in town. Also he has a bulldog. Um his bulldog is named Bullseye, which is very weird to me because the target mascot bulldog is also named Bullseye. And Coincidence.

[11:14] Jimi: I mean, probably not, but it's a weird marketing parallel to draw.

[11:18] Tommy: Yeah. Um, you know, not hilarity ensues in the process of trying to save Oliver Nancy, we said. Um gets uh uh beat and killed by Bill Sykes. Bill Sykes gets caught by an angry mob and shot. Um, and uh Oliver lives happily ever after, and Fagan decides to turn over uh a new leaf um in the movie version along with the artful dodger. Um perhaps leaving his life of crime or taking his life of crime elsewhere.

[11:54] Jimi: Exactly. Yeah, the only the the slight discrepancy is in the the musical, Dodger gets arrested.

[12:01] Tommy: So Fagan's literally left with an out.

[12:03] Jimi: Got it. Uh and he just goes off by himself. I think I did for for maybe only being in the spot for a week. I think that's pretty good.

[12:11] Tommy: I think did you miss anything important?

[12:15] Jimi: Uh no, just nuance.

[12:18] Tommy: But we'll get to that.

[12:20] Jimi: We'll get to that.

[12:21] Tommy: No, that was good. Is there nuance in this show?

[12:24] Jimi: Yes.

[12:25] Tommy: I'm excited to learn about it.

[12:27] Jimi: We're gonna have a whole segment where I've I've like developed a thesis on you.

[12:32] Tommy: A me?

[12:33] Jimi: Yeah.

[12:34] Tommy: On me. How do you think?

[12:36] Jimi: Because I haven't developed much.

[12:38] Tommy: What do you think my opinion of this show is? This will be funny.

[12:40] Jimi: I think you think it's fine, but it annoys you. And um you think there are a lot you think there are a lot better musicals out there.

[12:51] Tommy: That's I would see that. Yeah, I think that's pretty accurate. I can't really articulate why it annoys me, which frustrates me, and I know I need to be conscious of, right? Because I'm trying to be better about that. Um I do see why it's successful. I know that I don't have the cultural background to appreciate some of the nostalgic strings it's trying to pull.

[13:11] Jimi: Mm-hmm.

[13:12] Tommy: Um, and like that's also informing my way into this musical a lot.

[13:16] Jimi: But the nostalgia strings didn't exist in the 60s.

[13:20] Tommy: Oh, I'm talking about uh uh music hall and Britishness, which those nostalgia strings go much further back.

[13:27] Jimi: I don't agree that they're there.

[13:29] Tommy: Well that's add that to the list of things to talk about.

[13:32] Jimi: No, my thesis might tell you why you're annoyed.

[13:35] Tommy: Okay.

[13:35] Jimi: But I don't think you'll be open to the idea, but I think it's sound.

[13:40] Tommy: What if one of these podcasts is just gonna end right after we've teased all the things we're gonna talk about, but never talk about it?

[13:46] Jimi: Yeah, I know, and we never Yeah, we just do a full episode of teasing.

[13:51] Tommy: And nothing gets uh consolidated.

[13:54] Jimi: Okay, I don's fire on in.

[14:01] Tommy: Is that any?

[14:02] Jimi: Why not? We had uh a great uh kids' TV show called Kirching.

[14:07] Tommy: Oh.

[14:07] Jimi: Um, and it was uh giving like teenagers money advice.

[14:12] Tommy: Huh. That seems like a great idea for a show.

[14:26] Jimi: A bottle of Lucas aid.

[14:30] Tommy: Leuco Zaid.

[14:31] Jimi: Leucosaid.

[14:32] Tommy: Leucosaid.

[14:34] Jimi: That is it's not an energy drink, because it's not got caffeine in it.

[14:38] Tommy: Well, I don't think it's got it's like Gatorade, Gatorade doesn't have caffeine in it.

[14:41] Jimi: Then it's probably just like Gatorade.

[14:43] Tommy: You take it when you're ill.

[14:44] Jimi: Oh, you take this when you're done with your sports.

[14:48] Tommy: Yeah, you could so Lucaside Sport is what you take when you're done with your sports, but we've also got like a fizzy version.

[14:54] Jimi: Oh that uh you take when you're ill.

[14:58] Tommy: Man, sometimes I really feel you like feel like you're shitting me.

[15:02] Jimi: No, this is totally a thing.

[15:03] Tommy: And we've got two flavor, well, there's lots of flavors, but there's like two main flavors. There's like original, which could be in like to taste like carbonation. Um, and then there's orange, which is the better one, and that's the one that you have when you're ill and it makes you feel better. Lucas.

[15:21] Jimi: Anyway, on to the musical.

[15:22] Tommy: Cha-ching.

[15:23] Jimi: Why do we talk about that?

[15:24] Tommy: Oh yeah.

[15:24] Jimi: Oh, I didn't finish that point.

[15:26] Tommy: I'm gonna finish that point.

[15:27] Jimi: Um so they had a bit the end where it would be like, go and you had to find they scoured the UK to find the cheapest one and the most expensive one. Uh and like looking at the price of and making people aware that, you know, things are different prices.

[15:40] Tommy: That sounds fascinating.

[15:42] Jimi: Right? Abolishing capitalism from day one, British TV.

[15:45] Tommy: Hooray.

[15:46] Jimi: That's absolutely not quite the opposite.

[15:49] Tommy: Anyway.

[15:49] Jimi: Anyway.

[15:52] Tommy: Don't harbour thoughts but cabra, there's no need for frown.

[15:57] Jimi: In the end, we line up burn you up or nail you die.

[16:03] Tommy: We love cops and pleasures and diseases called in curable.

[16:08] Jimi: That's your funeral!

[16:10] Tommy: No one else's funeral.

[16:11] Jimi: That's your should we start with your opinions?

[16:22] Tommy: Question marks.

[16:24] Jimi: It was such a kind way to put it. I will say I found it very entertaining.

[16:35] Tommy: Yeah.

[16:35] Jimi: But I gleaned that it's it's pretty accurate, save for some omissions.

[16:40] Tommy: Yeah, a few things are omitted. There's a few things that are like storyline twisted around.

[16:44] Jimi: But the the sentiment I would say is the same.

[16:47] Tommy: Yeah.

[16:47] Jimi: Um and like I find it entertaining for sure. Um there is, you know.

[16:53] Tommy: I I I I and maybe when we talk about the Britishness of this, um we'll get more into it. But I I struggle with stories of like child abuse. Like I think that's just like a mild trigger warning for me, too, that like is hard to find entertainment in, like, oh they're orphans and they get peeped.

[17:14] Jimi: Um, but maybe that's you know, maybe I'm misreading the tone with which this is supposed to be uh uh ingested.

[17:22] Tommy: Um I think actually that's that's a great place to start actually because that kind of brings in the book, the original novel.

[17:30] Jimi: Sure.

[17:30] Tommy: Oliver Twist by Charles Dickens. Um, which he wrote actually quite early on.

[17:34] Jimi: Yeah.

[17:34] Tommy: That was one of his earlier ones. Um, and it's kind of critically noted as not being particularly great, especially compared to like his later ones, which are really yeah, bleak house, hard to like the the really meaty ones where he was like, I've understood language.

[17:51] Jimi: Um but weirdly, Oliver Twist is probably his most adapted one.

[17:56] Tommy: Um who knows why that story in particular is the thing that's appealing to people.

[18:02] Jimi: Sure.

[18:02] Tommy: Um, but it certainly is. Uh, and I would say that this is probably its most famous adaptation.

[18:09] Jimi: Um, but what Dickens is writing about is like such a crucial and important part of UK history.

[18:19] Tommy: Yeah.

[18:19] Jimi: And I wonder if this is where the like this is weird comes into play because like as Brits, we're very well aware that our children were workers.

[18:33] Tommy: Right.

[18:34] Jimi: Yes. Do you know what I mean? In the industrial revolution, children worked.

[18:38] Tommy: And that that is perhaps awfully. The the the cultural touchstone nostalgia piece I was alluding to before, is that like we, you know, the closest Americans get to that is, and we'll talk about orphan musicals later, but it's newsies, but there's a different, you know, they're just paper boys. They're not, you know, and they've kind of got their own agency.

[19:00] Tommy: Right. And and often that's a part of the story, whereas the the the youth of working Victorian England, like it's muddy and dirty and gross and slimy and you know.

[19:10] Jimi: Exactly, unpleasant, and like difficult to I think this is the tone imbalance I'm I'm struggling with. Is in the in the film in this adaptation, there's a romanticization that happens to it.

[19:22] Tommy: Um that makes me really uncomfortable.

[19:25] Jimi: Do you think now here's here's the question do you think it's romanticization, or do you think it's satirization?

[19:32] Tommy: Fair point. Fair point.

[19:35] Jimi: Um yeah, I don't know. Um maybe that's maybe g but maybe this is one of these things of I've sat with this right and it's a new to me. For many many times, and it's new to you. So at first that's like that's jarring. Right. And then you might realize, oh wait, actually, there's something behind that.

[19:51] Tommy: Now, um you know, Lionel Bart has never professed to write a biting satire, you know, I mean satirical adaptation of all distress, but um I think a lot of his choices that he has made um sit in that world because obviously Food Glorious Food does not paint the picture of Victorian workhouses.

[20:15] Jimi: Right. Do you know what I mean? But it does highlight, you know, the kind of innocence that these children still had, despite the fact they were being put to work from the age of three, yeah, you know.

[20:28] Tommy: Um so it was interesting, like when you said in your um summary, um you called it an orphanage.

[20:35] Jimi: It's technically a workhouse, correct?

[20:37] Tommy: It is a workhouse, yeah. They're different things.

[20:39] Jimi: So um orphanages did exist and probably had elements of of working to them just because it was you could do get kids to work from the law, right? Um but workhouses, not this one in particular, but a lot of times um the mothers would also be there working.

[20:57] Jimi: Oh, and the kids would just be working on a different bit because males, females don't, you know, mix.

[21:03] Tommy: Um, and they wouldn't have like it wouldn't be like little lovely family time.

[21:09] Jimi: Um, but uh yeah, young mothers also that was where they would work.

[21:15] Tommy: So if Nancy um and Bet, for example, weren't in the Bricks are prostitute. We don't really talk about that in the musical, but you know, but it's it's it's implied.

[21:24] Jimi: Right, exactly.

[21:25] Tommy: If they weren't ladies of the night, uh they uh would probably be in a workhouse because it's the only way that they wouldn't be destitute, right?

[21:34] Jimi: Yeah.

[21:34] Tommy: Um so really fun times to exist.

[21:38] Jimi: Well, that's and like I think that's the the part that's tough for me, is it doesn't, you know it doesn't go into that?

[21:45] Tommy: Well, not that it doesn't go into that, but it were it to be satire, I would want it to go a little further.

[21:51] Jimi: Um like I've seen plenty of Monty Python esque style sketches that go further to satirize, you know, some of the like old British destituiteness of whatever decade you want to choose, right?

[22:05] Tommy: Yeah.

[22:05] Jimi: Whereas this there does, at least in my first couple viewings of it, seem to be a a glimmer of of you know golden nostalgia, like wash rushing over and yeah, yeah, yeah.

[22:17] Tommy: Um so I think again, I might be given Lion of Art too much credit, but sure, I'm gonna go for his defense. But I think there's a reason behind that, and I think there's a just a justification for it.

[22:27] Jimi: Yeah.

[22:28] Tommy: Um and I think this comes down to the question that you asked of is Oliver the main character.

[22:35] Jimi: I mean, he's not, which is stupid.

[22:39] Tommy: But actually, I think he is. I think he is the central character because we see this world through his eyes.

[22:48] Jimi: Okay.

[22:48] Tommy: Right? Because he and we've we've talked about this before in terms of like musical theatre structure. Right. He has the I Want song.

[22:53] Jimi: Yeah, he does.

[22:56] Tommy: Right? He has Where is Love?

[22:57] Jimi: Where is Love?

[22:57] Tommy: That is very much the I Want Song. And I have a thesis about Oliver.

[23:07] Jimi: That actually that the whole story is him looking for love.

[23:15] Tommy: And what is love and where is it? How do you find it? What he wants is the kind of idyllic perfect version, you know what I mean?

[23:23] Jimi: Right.

[23:24] Tommy: Mother and son, entwined, happiness, joy, love, mirth. The first kind of piece of love that he sees is Widow Cormy and Mr. Bumble.

[23:36] Jimi: And it's this weird, twisted, like a bit depraved, but also still quite Victorian.

[23:44] Tommy: Right. Like they're they're not in spite of their uh lyrics to the contrary, we never see them being like explicitly abusive to Oliver.

[23:54] Jimi: Right.

[23:55] Tommy: But they would have.

[23:59] Jimi: So the that's the kind of first like love relationship that he sees. Then he moves on and he sees Bill and Nancy.

[24:06] Tommy: Yeah.

[24:07] Jimi: Um, which is a very complex relationship there. And you know, it doesn't end well.

[24:14] Tommy: It does not end well.

[24:15] Jimi: It is not the picture of idyllic love that he wants. Then he sees the love um of Fagan and Fagan's love for the wise. Now, this is just in the musical, we're not talking about the book here.

[24:26] Tommy: Um, and then resultingly finds love, hopefully, in this family, where he's kind of gone through everything.

[24:36] Jimi: So there's almost like a like Ulysses style.

[24:40] Tommy: Right.

[24:41] Jimi: It is this like acid journey of yeah, like that's that's he's like seeing all these vignettes. And I think one of the reasons why then you could excuse, forget or like justify the music brushing over, is because it's out of these child's innocent eyes.

[25:00] Tommy: Sure.

[25:01] Jimi: And in a way that, you know, like the story of the little matchstick girl, she created a world for herself to fight through the darkness.

[25:10] Tommy: Yeah.

[25:10] Jimi: You know what I mean? Now that's a big ol' justification, right?

[25:16] Tommy: Yeah.

[25:17] Jimi: But it it's not bad.

[25:19] Tommy: Yeah.

[25:20] Jimi: I would say, like, I don't I think I'd I I I seize support and and agree with your thesis there. I think some of the things I struggle with, and you know, who knows where the birth of these things are, whether they're with Dickens or Bart.

[25:34] Tommy: Um, but like it it is frustrating to me, and this is endemic of all sorts of literature about children.

[25:44] Jimi: Um that there's a centering of the relationship of children's relationships with adults, and a huge glossing over of the fact that like children also have relationships with each other.

[25:57] Tommy: Like Oliver has a relationship with the artful Dodger, maybe, but it's not that's it's they get one song, that's it, right?

[26:05] Jimi: Yeah, we don't meet any of the workhouse boys that Oliver in theory has been living with his entire life, nor do we meet, you know, that but this is a problem in uh Peter Pan. This is a problem in all sorts of media like this.

[26:19] Tommy: Um it's a very it's you know, it is it is tough because it is adults write fiction from their perspective whether they want to or not.

[26:30] Jimi: Yeah.

[26:31] Tommy: And kind of glosses over, I think this very unexplored um uh you know, kids are friends with each other.

[26:37] Jimi: Have you met kids?

[26:38] Tommy: Yeah.

[26:39] Jimi: Um even though we're even though this is across an ocean and a century and a half ago, I have no doubt that kids are still friends with kids first in this time.

[26:50] Tommy: And I do find uh like a low-key frustration with stories that assume like, oh, but of course the most important relationship in these kids' lives is with the adults that are around them. Because how could a kid have any agency of their own? That's ridiculous.

[27:05] Jimi: Um I think part of me is I'm seeing that same frustration here in Yeah, fair, you know, and and it's two centuries old, right? Like it's taken, I think, maybe five hundred years of modern literature to come around to kids' stories about kids.

[27:23] Tommy: Kids, yeah.

[27:24] Jimi: And even then it there's still, you know, uh uh there's still problems with it.

[27:31] Tommy: Anyway.

[27:31] Jimi: I think that's fair.

[27:32] Tommy: Yeah, no, that uh, I think that's and it's definitely it's not something that is explored at all because his relationship with Dodge is much more just as a way to get to fake it.

[27:45] Jimi: It's a perfunctor, it's not like the bros, they don't have uh, you know, right.

[27:51] Tommy: I don't actually think Dodger cares about Oliver as much as Fagin cares about Oliver.

[27:55] Jimi: There's a great moment for a turn there when like Oliver gets uh uh swept up in Dodge's pickpocket attempt, and we don't really get to even see Dodge's opinion about that how that moment went down, and he was directly involved in it, he was the cause of it, but immediately the agency gets turned over to Fagan and Sykes to kind of sort that out.

[28:18] Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[28:18] Jimi: And it it's a it's a it's a pet peeve of mine in literature, certainly.

[28:22] Tommy: Um That's fair.

[28:23] Jimi: And it's and perhaps it is because of Oliver Twist, you know. Perhaps the the grand success of this has informed and kind of capped off how literature about children has been written for 200 plus years.

[28:46] Jimi: No, that they're like proper kids in Oliver Twist.

[28:49] Tommy: Yeah.

[28:50] Jimi: And like there are kids in, you know, Christmas Carol. The kids exist, but it's not centered around like and part of it is, and you know, it's hard to know where to draw this line, but you want to say to Dickens or Bart, like if you want to write Fagin the musical, write Fagin the musical. Do it. You can do that. Um but for all sorts of reasons they didn't, right? Um but I do find it interesting, like the recording that Spotify suggested me first was the 94 London Palladium cast.

[29:21] Jimi: Yeah. Um and the cover of that, they've done everything they can to imply that it's about Fagin. It's his face. Right. And and then in there is the word Oliver, and we can get to some of the problems with Fagin in general. Um but you know, there there is this tension in this musical about who it's about. Like Fagin has some of the well, they all have pretty um emotionally informed songs.

[29:43] Tommy: But that's the thing. But Fagin makes a choice. Oliver, and this is my other struggle with literature centered around kids, it's the Alice in Wonderland problem, right?

[29:50] Jimi: Right. The story happens. The story of Oliver happens to him.

[29:54] Tommy: Yes, yes. And, you know, that's like Philly. And there's again there's been some there's actually some really really good like essays and stuff on this but more from the book's perspective. But it totally applies to to the musical too of um because Oliver you know the blood that runs through Oliver's veins is rich blood. Right? He is from a rich family and therefore he is able to walk through Victorian London unscathed.

[30:22] Jimi: Right. I mean and there's i there is a little element of that in the world right and that's the implication of the story which is a shitty one but yeah.

[30:30] Tommy: Right totally totally um but like there's a in the book um the book opens with um his mother dying okay with him great you know lovely happy starts with it and she kisses him that's like the last thing she does uh and it it it's kind of that idea of like the kiss is particular I mean I'd say you know we I mean that can you see that trope straight up through Harry Potter right like exactly exactly yeah exactly oh my god yeah true um so it I think there's there's readings of that right that can be done in the same in the musical and like he i especially in the film for God's sake what a beautiful like that is the most innocent child yeah on earth come on I mean we've talked about this I hate children so I know but it's like I like there's so many books I'm just like ah would you know I mean where like if you were the appropriate age would you rather be cast as Oliver or Dodger?

[30:30] Jimi: Well, that's tricky because I can never sing where is love. Skill skill skill aside, like just for you asking me now or are you asking me then?

[31:40] Tommy: I'm asking you, like, if if you not not if I could become a child once you're not you had the choice. You you can be cast as either of these and do so successfully. Which role would you want to play?

[31:50] Jimi: Well, yeah, I but no, but that's that's there's too much to that because I know my casting.

[31:56] Tommy: Fair, fair.

[31:58] Jimi: My casting isn't the romantic lead. Um, so I will never be Oliver because obviously.

[32:04] Tommy: Well you want to be Oliver.

[32:06] Jimi: Um he's the main part.

[32:10] Tommy: Yeah.

[32:10] Jimi: I would want to like he still is the main part because the thing is is um Where is like Where is Love is the song that breaks every single mother's heart in the audience because it's about a little boy singing to his mother, and so therefore everyone's heart breaks. Whereas like Dodger's like funny.

[32:26] Tommy: Yeah, I would rather be Dodger. Also, I went to the bathroom during Where is Love because I found it insufferable.

[32:34] Jimi: Oh he's just so sweet.

[32:37] Tommy: He's so sweet. Bless. And it's just uh like it w it himself him singing and I do anything. He's like, hand back again, I it's just like you're just so innocent. Ah Um anyway, uh I don't even know why I started talking about it being innocent.

[32:58] Jimi: Galvanized.

[32:58] Tommy: Yes glowing through, yes, exactly. Like even in Victorian London, someone who is that innocent looking wouldn't get touched.

[33:06] Jimi: That is not true.

[33:07] Tommy: Um quite the opposite. Uh yeah, so I think there's there's definitely a reading of the musical. It is. I think in that way.

[33:16] Jimi: I think the thing that then like I see that, and you know, and my brain is doing like its separation of like here's how you feel about the show and what's your analytical take on it, right?

[33:28] Tommy: Yeah.

[33:28] Jimi: So let's say the second half of my brain is supporting the analytical take on it. There needs to be a reprise called Here is Love at the end of the show.

[33:37] Tommy: Fair, yeah. And there's not. Oliver doesn't have his turn. You know, it just kind of sputters away into its nebulous ending of musical theater. And here is love would be and whether you know, pick your poison. Is it Fagin? Is it Daddy Warbucks? Like, who where is here is love, but make it happen.

[33:55] Jimi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. If that's the point of your show, and it's not there. Fair enough.

[34:01] Tommy: Excuse me. I don't know if you heard that, uh, Bert. Um the uh yeah, because the the reason why I kind of went on this as my sort of thesis for the show is because that's what Lionel Bart actually says. Like he says that at the core of it, it is where is love, and that is the whole message.

[34:18] Jimi: Um I was trying to extrapolate from that, but I think you're right. I think if we're if we're looking at how to write a book of a musical, right? That's where your that's your finale. You know, let let your let your set fall away, but let here is love be with Lucy and Dodger and Fagin and you know, whoever, and they all hold hands and it's this big moment, and then cut back into consider yourself and then everyone bows, right?

[34:42] Tommy: Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. You can just you can just do that and like a revival probably should.

[34:47] Jimi: Um But I wonder, right? I wonder if the show was written five years later.

[34:52] Tommy: Yeah.

[34:53] Jimi: Would it have? Because uh we have to remember we're still early. We'd only j we had only just got Oklahoma.

[34:59] Tommy: Right.

[34:59] Jimi: Like they're still making this up.

[35:01] Tommy: They're still making this up, exactly.

[35:03] Jimi: Um, and really Oklahoma was always kinda had to go like that was all we kinda had to go on because of the war, which we'll talk about in a bit. Um, so uh I think it Yeah. Agree completely, it needs a finale.

[35:16] Tommy: Yeah, but he may have got, you know, I mean he may have got there.

[35:21] Jimi: And and I guess the fact that it is so easy for us right here to be like, and this is what the finale would be, speaks to the cohesiveness of everything that would have come before it.

[35:30] Tommy: So I think that's it, yeah, and I think like I actually think the book is really good.

[35:34] Jimi: Yeah, I I mean I I do mean it. I'm stuck in this weird spot. I did enjoy it, and you're right, I was annoyed by it, and I was annoyed by my enjoyment of it.

[35:44] Tommy: And I'm I'm trying to unpack what that is.

[35:46] Jimi: Again, I'll tell you exactly what it is. You don't even need to worry about it. I've got you.

[35:49] Tommy: I've literally got you.

[35:51] Jimi: Um but no, the but I think like in terms of song spotting, um, like musical theatre construction, Lionel Bart actually kind of ahead of his time.

[36:03] Tommy: Oh sure because things things were being written about this yet, you know what I mean?

[36:06] Jimi: Like we had only really had a few.

[36:09] Tommy: Yeah.

[36:09] Jimi: Um and in terms of like good cohesive book musical. So the fact that we've got Where is Love, the fact that we've got um uh it is called What He As Long As He Needs Me.

[36:26] Tommy: Um, the fact that we've got reviewing the Situation, yeah.

[36:30] Jimi: We also have my name, which we'll talk about when we talk about the film.

[36:33] Tommy: Sure.

[36:35] Jimi: Yeah. Um but here, you know, three really good songs. We've got like a pioneering of like A plot B plot C plot going on here.

[36:43] Tommy: Yeah, exactly.

[36:44] Jimi: And like three really good character songs that give the character's core one.

[36:50] Tommy: Yeah, I mean, this is ingrained in the story.

[36:52] Jimi: Um, we've got world building songs, it's at the three different occasions. We've got Food Glorious Foods, then we've got Consider Yourself, The Populous, and then we've got Who Will Buy, Riches, Opulance.

[37:03] Tommy: Yeah, do you know what I mean?

[37:04] Jimi: Um and then we've got satire of I Do Anything.

[37:08] Tommy: Yeah.

[37:09] Jimi: Um, we've got uh Umpapa, this you know, very ingrained book musical, like come on, no very digetic.

[37:19] Tommy: And even like I was honestly, the intro to this song is I was drunkenly making a TikTok making fun of Who Will Buy last night.

[37:27] Jimi: Um brilliant.

[37:29] Tommy: Uh and it's and I'm not good at TikTok, so it's stupid. But um I was also like watching the song as it was happening. Like, this is a stupid song. This is like an act two opener, you know, like that nothing is happening in this song, and then like it starts really uh what sang sanguine, is that a word?

[37:46] Jimi: Um, you know, very lethargic, you know, uh and then jumps into this bouncy you know, and then we all have a reason to dance.

[37:58] Tommy: And I was ready to like pass it off, but then I was like rolling back through my notes, and we did kind of start the show with boy for sale, and there's we're sh we're we are demonstrating the vast difference between what where Oliver started and where he is now and who's selling what on the streets, you know, labor and humanity versus roses, completely unnecessary, frivolous, knives, yeah, like exactly like and you know it it strikes as being accidentally brilliant, it strikes as being like you know, uh clumsily clever.

[38:37] Jimi: Um because it doesn't they're not the same song, they don't there's not like a motif that ties the two together.

[38:42] Tommy: Um but there could if we wrote the musical again today there would be there would be yeah exactly and I think as well though like that again lends itself to Oliver's eyes like Oliver is he's in a wonderful happy place such a sky I never did see yeah I am in the top of my game here I am rich I don't live in poverty anymore I'm not being made to do things I don't want to I'm having a lovely life and this is the world that he sees do you know I mean people selling roses in the streets dancing milk fades like it all it it weirdly works doesn't it yeah it really really because it is you know we've talked before about how episodic musicals often don't work yeah and and I think somehow this one does.

[39:27] Jimi: I think part of it is because it's and I have not read the book but I'm positive they've excised a great portion of Dickens's writing uh right so actually it was more adapted from um there was an I think it was 1949 movie adaptation by a guy called David Lean.

[39:44] Tommy: I read about this film yes right um and actually he took a lot of the structure okay from that guy so it included a lot of his omissions um because in the book uh he doesn't end with like Mr. Brownley or whatever he's got I can't remember saying um in the book he there's a whole other family that he is actually related to it's okay and they and they track down you know Annie styles and his lineages yeah right exactly and they go off into the countryside so it's a whole other setting yeah that isn't in the musical that also wasn't in the film.

[40:17] Jimi: So um yeah, that that's where he's got his yeah structure from.

[40:23] Tommy: That makes sense.

[40:24] Jimi: Um but man, what it how wild too that so early on because Oklahoma, right?

[40:30] Tommy: Uh based on what?

[40:32] Jimi: Green Grow the Lilac.

[40:33] Tommy: Green Grow the Lilacs, right?

[40:35] Jimi: Everyone's favorite novel. Have you ever even heard of it?

[40:37] Tommy: Um, read it four million times.

[40:40] Jimi: We are starting to see it yeah, it is just fascinating that in our art form there is this baked-in adaptation of adaptation.

[40:47] Tommy: Right, exactly.

[40:49] Jimi: Right? That you know, you are drawing from maybe one source, but maybe six, um, and taking different things from the different pieces, and that it started as early as the sixties.

[40:59] Tommy: Yeah, totally, totally.

[41:01] Jimi: Um, but yeah, I I think like to get line and also the fact that he did this all himself, yeah.

[41:06] Tommy: For the most part, do you know what I mean?

[41:07] Jimi: Like this that's pretty pretty impressive.

[41:10] Tommy: And he's also he says of himself that he's not a huge musician, that like he's a theater guy.

[41:15] Jimi: Yeah.

[41:16] Tommy: Thinks of them.

[41:16] Jimi: He just thinks of the tunes, get someone to play the piano, and is like, no, that doesn't work.

[41:21] Tommy: Yeah, change that.

[41:22] Jimi: Like, that's a bit, you know, virtuoso.

[41:25] Tommy: And to to end to find to find songs that are both Where is Love and Pick a Pocket or Two, like the those are different songs.

[41:25] Jimi: Those are different songs. The thing about Oliver, them some catchy ass songs.

[41:37] Tommy: Yeah.

[41:38] Jimi: I so it's been a while since I've actually watched it. I like we're talking maybe like six or seven years, maybe since I last watched it.

[41:45] Tommy: Didn't forget a single word.

[41:46] Jimi: Yeah.

[41:47] Tommy: Like I d i these these are you know, I mean fully ingrained.

[41:53] Jimi: For sure.

[41:54] Tommy: And that's quite that's quite impressive.

[41:56] Jimi: That's hard to do.

[41:57] Tommy: Yeah.

[41:58] Jimi: Um also last fact about the original production.

[42:02] Tommy: Uh huh.

[42:02] Jimi: I just think it's funny. Had a budget of 15,000 pounds.

[42:05] Tommy: I know.

[42:06] Jimi: Oh, so and like crazy.

[42:08] Tommy: That's not adjusted for inflation, right?

[42:11] Jimi: No, no, no, that that is just that is how much money they had.

[42:14] Tommy: I have a note of uh where the I have a have the budget.

[42:17] Jimi: Uh-huh.

[42:18] Tommy: Um let me give you some rates.

[42:22] Jimi: Uh so I I don't work in the West End Theater now, but I imagine the rates might be slightly higher now.

[42:30] Tommy: Sure.

[42:30] Jimi: Um so for example, the director.

[42:33] Tommy: Uh-huh.

[42:33] Jimi: How much do you think the director would get?

[42:35] Tommy: I mean, nowadays several thousand dollars.

[42:38] Jimi: Right. If your budget is fifteen thousand, how much are you gonna give to a director?

[42:42] Tommy: Uh man, I would give I mean the director probably deserves like in that day, maybe twenty percent of your full budget, twenty or thirty.

[42:51] Jimi: Um what's that of fifteen?

[42:55] Tommy: So tell you what, three thousand pounds?

[42:58] Jimi: Right, okay.

[42:59] Tommy: Let's go to three hundred and fifty pounds.

[43:02] Jimi: Oh weirdly, Sean Kenny, the set designer, got eight hundred pounds.

[43:11] Jimi: I wonder, but actually a lot of people laud like one of the things that has benchmarked all of our, and we'll talk about this in a wee bit, classic, um, is the set design.

[43:22] Tommy: So that's fair.

[43:23] Jimi: Choreographer, two of them.

[43:26] Tommy: One of them, the woman obviously got less.

[43:29] Jimi: Uh, because that's obviously the way it should be, right?

[43:32] Tommy: Um, she got a hundred pounds.

[43:35] Jimi: The main, the male guy got a hundred and fifty pounds.

[43:39] Tommy: Now what are the chances the woman did a lot more work?

[43:42] Jimi: Probably.

[43:43] Tommy: Right.

[43:44] Jimi: Um, yeah, it's just that's nuts. I did I did some inflation math.

[43:50] Tommy: So fifteen thousand pounds in nineteen sixty would come out to around, uh, two hundred and ninety thousand of 2020 pounds, which is still dirt cheap for a show.

[44:03] Jimi: Buttons. And they said, they said that, so like the producer who did it with here, I can't remember his name. Um, he was known for being quite tight-fisted and good at doing things on a shoestring but still making a big production.

[44:15] Tommy: So that's obviously Sean. But I just found that so funny. £15,000. I love that.

[44:21] Jimi: Um, yeah. So keeping in the realm of the show. Let's talk about the characters.

[44:27] Tommy: Alright.

[44:29] Jimi: Chiching.

[44:31] Tommy: I know that's I go anywhere for your smile.

[44:31] Jimi: Anywhere for your smile.

[44:39] Tommy: Everywhere, I'd sing a hill.

[44:45] Jimi: Anything.

[44:46] Tommy: And where would fill in anything?

[44:49] Jimi: Leave me all of your will.

[44:51] Tommy: Anything.

[44:52] Jimi: Even fight my will.

[44:54] Tommy: What's the cuffs?

[44:55] Jimi: I miss everything.

[44:58] Tommy: For one kiss.

[44:59] Jimi: Everything.

[45:01] Tommy: Besides.

[45:02] Jimi: Anything.

[45:03] Tommy: Anything?

[45:04] Jimi: Anything.

[45:06] Tommy: The new segue?

[45:07] Jimi: What's going on?

[45:08] Tommy: I'm like missing the segue.

[45:11] Jimi: Is this what you're doing to me?

[45:12] Tommy: I'm gaslighting you.

[45:13] Jimi: I've removed the segue second.

[45:15] Tommy: Exactly.

[45:17] Jimi: Um, really, I just want to talk about two characters. Who do you want to start with?

[45:24] Tommy: Let's start with Fagin.

[45:26] Jimi: Problematic to say the least.

[45:28] Tommy: Right, okay. So here's yes.

[45:31] Jimi: Phil stop. Conversation done.

[45:33] Tommy: No.

[45:34] Jimi: Um, this is what's interesting, right? Is this adapted from a book, right?

[45:42] Tommy: That was a snapshot of a time period.

[45:46] Jimi: Right? Um, in the book.

[45:50] Tommy: Very anti-Semitic.

[45:51] Jimi: It is like it is interesting. I read, uh, I don't remember where I read. Dickens in his time was called to task for Fagin being a very anti-Semitic character.

[46:03] Tommy: He refers to him as the Jew, a whole bunch.

[46:06] Jimi: Um, you know, he's a much more of a bad guy in the book too. He is he is the villain. More so than Sykes in a way.

[46:12] Tommy: He is. He has, you know, the awful stereotypical anti-Semitic portrayal of Jewish people.

[46:19] Jimi: Um, and through his lifetime, Dickens actually tried to apologize, revise, um, and like make amends for this.

[46:29] Tommy: And I think that there's a lot of scholarly articles about this that I won't, you know, do any, I won't do any good job of replicating it.

[46:37] Jimi: Yeah. Um, and who knows, you know, it is hard to know how much something like this is done because someone noticed and how much is done because you've actually realized you've stumbled into a mistake.

[46:50] Tommy: Um, but it is interesting because that exists, right? It's gonna continue to inform every adaptation that ever exists of this thing.

[46:58] Jimi: The article I read about the nineteen forties film was that it was, uh, hotly protested in post-war Germany, um, by, you know, freshly liberated Jewish people who are like, "Fuck this, what the hell?"

[47:12] Tommy: Um, because the forties film also was much, you know, even more, uh, offensive than perhaps the musical version was.

[47:20] Jimi: Way more offensive. Like the forties film, he lent into it, like he had, uh, David Lean, the director, had loads of people telling him it was Alec Guinness who played Fagin.

[47:30] Tommy: Um, he had loads of people telling him you can't do this. Like this is just flat out too offensive.

[47:36] Jimi: This is anti-Semitic what you're doing. He like gave him a prosthetic nose, like all of his mannerisms were directed as this kind of, you know, like it's that trope of the like Shylock Shakespearean character, right?

[47:52] Tommy: Um, that was done in the 1600s, even in the 1800s with Fagin.

[47:57] Jimi: Do you know what I mean from there? Like we can fix this, let alone the forties.

[48:01] Tommy: So, uh, yeah, he was told and yet he still was like, "No, my art."

[48:09] Jimi: Is it or are you just particular you're putting that out there?

[48:13] Tommy: Um, but then so what we're seeing from there is, uh, the next kind of step along but a core part of Fagin's character, um, that Lionel Bart is argued is the fact that he is Jewish.

[48:13] Jimi: Um, and to be Jewish in the eighteen hundreds was not an easy thing. He couldn't have a job because he was Jewish.

[48:38] Tommy: Do you know what I mean? And was in many ways forced into the underworld because he was Jewish.

[48:44] Jimi: Right. And um, then it's like where do you know how do you how do you play such a tricky circle to square and you can even if you if you do a chronological listening of recordings of this show.

[49:03] Tommy: Like if you go back to the original West End one, um, I can't remember the actor's name off the top of my head.

[49:09] Jimi: Ron Moody.

[49:10] Tommy: Um, who was his in the film. Was Jewish as well?

[49:13] Jimi: I think that's true. Ron Moody is Jewish, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[49:16] Tommy: So he's Jewish.

[49:17] Jimi: And so is Lionel Bart.

[49:19] Tommy: And so, but you can hear even the difference between the original West End recording, which was before the film, and then the film, um, the whatever kind of, you know, there's like a very klezmer-esque, uh, underscoring to "Pick a Pocket or Two" that gets toned down a bit.

[49:38] Jimi: Um, his voice for Fagin gets reeled back a bit.

[49:42] Tommy: Um, you kind of hear the softening, and with each iteration, fast forward to the 94 Palladium, fast forward to like all of these recordings, you can hear these discussions have happened and people have said, like, "Okay, we have to, you know, we can't do this anymore."

[49:56] Jimi: Um, and it's interesting. I wonder what those conversations were like.

[50:00] Tommy: In, so there's loads of, there's loads of evidence of them actually.

[50:03] Jimi: Um, and I'll try I'll stick in the show notes some of the like actual conversations, but um, it's it is really really interesting because it was hugely contested by like everyone, um, including Lionel Bart.

[50:17] Tommy: So Ron Moody, who played Fagin in the film, and in many ways is Fagin.

[50:23] Jimi: Like when you think Fagin, you think Ron Moody, you literally don't think anyone else.

[50:27] Tommy: Um, and in the movie, uh, that's a dialed back version of this representation of his stage than what he did on the stage.

[50:36] Jimi: Yeah.

[50:37] Tommy: Um, and, uh, like there were times when Lionel Bart even got uncomfortable with some of his portrayal, and that's why in the film it's a bit polished.

[50:47] Jimi: Um, but when it went over to Broadway, this was a big, big thing because even before it got there, people had heard of Ron Moody's portrayal.

[50:47] Tommy: Um, Ron Moody was only in it for a year as well which is interesting.

[50:47] Jimi: Um, it ran for three years he was on it for one year but he was so distinctive and so iconic.

[50:47] Tommy: Exactly that it rippled across the pond and um, I think it was for the New Yorker, uh, a publication, um, put out a quote being like I don't understand why we're allowing this anti-Semitic musical, um, because of this one portrayal that one actor did that then didn't happen, right after, do you know what I mean after that?

[50:47] Jimi: And then Lionel Bart came back to that and got into this dispute with this woman, um, basically being like this isn't an anti-Semitic musical like we have worked to make sure that it, you know, I mean it's not.

[50:47] Tommy: And then when it eventually went to Broadway, um, like the actor doing it, it was Cockney like that was the portrayal it was completely Cockney.

[50:47] Jimi: Exactly and the same for Jonathan Pryce who did it in the 94 like that was, you're he's playing a Cockney character.

[50:47] Tommy: Um, but it's really interesting because they're obviously they're pulling away from that like the negative stereotypes right which is great fair, um, but it's still ingrained in the music and it's still like it is a still a significant part of his character.

[52:33] Jimi: But then it's like, well, how do you perform Jewishness?

[52:40] Tommy: Do you know I mean how do you perform without, you know, I mean and so and does it, I don't know I think really interesting erasure at that point like where is the border and like Absolut.

[52:40] Jimi: You know per it is it is often useful to look at analogies, right? So like is the removal of blackface erasure of, you know, African American heritage?

[53:04] Tommy: Right.

[53:05] Jimi: Right.

[53:06] Tommy: No, generally speaking.

[53:08] Jimi: I mean like big no generally speaking.

[53:11] Tommy: And are there other parts that probably got lost along the way that we don't know about?

[53:16] Jimi: Yeah, probably.

[53:17] Tommy: Right.

[53:18] Jimi: Did the minstrel shows give a lot of black actors work?

[53:22] Tommy: Yes.

[53:22] Jimi: Yes.

[53:23] Tommy: Now not a justification to bring back minstrel shows.

[53:27] Jimi: No, absolutely not.

[53:28] Tommy: But then how do you circle that square?

[53:30] Jimi: Yeah.

[53:31] Tommy: So I think, I think like it there's definitely like it's important to me, I think it's important that the character is Jewish because that is core to why one of the reasons why Lionel Bart wrote the show.

[53:44] Jimi: He himself was an impoverished Jewish son of an immigrant, like who came over, survived, went through World War II.

[53:53] Tommy: Do you know what I mean? Like this is someone who has been prejudiced against for being Jewish, um, was also homosexual.

[54:00] Jimi: Like, do you know I mean cards are quite stacked against him in those days?

[54:03] Tommy: Um, it's therefore important to the story that he has told that this character is Jewish.

[54:14] Jimi: Um, but then how when the only representation you have to pull from from the source that you're adapting from is not from a Jewish author's perspective and isn't entirely based on negative stereotypes, how you know that's a tough ball to roll.

[54:33] Tommy: Totally, absolutely is.

[54:34] Jimi: Um, so I think I would say like the decisions to not go into stereotypes is a smart decision.

[54:41] Tommy: But is it like is it enough that the use like klezmer tones in the music?

[54:48] Jimi: Do you know what I mean? That there's like, um, like some Yiddish overtones in certain, you know, riffs that he sings, you know what I mean?

[54:59] Tommy: Like, is that enough to just exemplify it?

[55:04] Jimi: But could you pull a West Side Story revival with the new Lin-Manuel Miranda Spanish lyrics and give, uh, Fagin a couple more, you know, Yiddish phrases that he can throw in here and there without the negative stereotype?

[55:18] Tommy: Is that is that enough?

[55:20] Jimi: Um, right, but then one of the biggest negative stereotypes is this miserable.

[55:25] Tommy: Right, he his character is the thief and the and of, you know, like that's part of the story, you know.

[55:31] Jimi: Exactly.

[55:32] Tommy: And they already, and that is part of the story because that is the circumstance.

[55:35] Jimi: That is just absolutely. Um, and again to give Lionel Bart his credit, in reviewing the situation when he's going through the scenarios and he thinks about I could just get a job, and he's like, actually, no, I couldn't.

[55:50] Tommy: One reading of that is I don't want to do that. One reading of that is there's no way in this world I could ever get a job.

[55:56] Jimi: Well, and to our discussion earlier, we don't get here is love, we do get a reprise of "Reviewing the Situation."

[55:56] Tommy: Of "Reviewing the Situation," yeah, exactly.

[56:06] Jimi: Exactly. And he's like, here's my law point who takes a character turn in this show?

[56:14] Tommy: Of all people, it's absolutely Fagin.

[56:18] Jimi: Absolutely.

[56:19] Tommy: Um, and I think like to give the musical its credit, I think the changing of Fagin's character is a good thing.

[56:29] Jimi: Because like we say, in the book, he is evil.

[56:32] Tommy: Um, the David Lean film adaptation, also evil.

[56:38] Jimi: Um, in the musical, paternal, still has villainous.

[56:44] Tommy: He's the one who you're like, oh, are you gonna make the right choice?

[56:47] Jimi: I want you to make the right choice, but you might not.

[56:50] Tommy: Exactly.

[56:51] Jimi: Um, and actually, because I've I've put here, like, I think Lionel Bart in his portrayal of Fagin as an ad as a piece of adaptation, um, was actually hugely influential on um Alan Boublil and Claude-Michel Schönberg when they were doing Les Mis and when they were doing Miss Saigon because, uh, the character of the engineer and Mr. Thenardier, like Thenardier is an out and out villain in Victor Hugo's book, like he's a horrible man and he is not funny.

[57:21] Tommy: Um, same with Madame, they are like they are horrible people, um, but in a musical, it's like and they justify that because they're like you need the comic relief that somewhere there needs to be comic relief.

[57:34] Jimi: Well, why do you choose the like scummiest, the most evil characters to do that? And I think there's evidence that it was the influence of Lionel Bart taking evil Fagin and making him comic relief.

[57:50] Tommy: No, fair. Don't know. I think there's something. Are there any, I'm now I'm now like on a villainous side tangent, but like are there any villain villains, like villain villain villain in stage musicals? Like The Queen and Snow White, like you're just evil.

[58:07] Jimi: Well, like Bill Sykes and Oliver.

[58:09] Tommy: I like Bill Sykes and Oliver.

[58:10] Jimi: Yeah, good answer.

[58:12] Tommy: Yeah. Thank you. We don't have to look too far from home. Um, but yes. Bill Sykes and Oliver. Um, are we gonna talk about?

[58:22] Jimi: Oh no, we're talking about him in the movie. I won't spoil that. Um, can we put Fagin to bed? Uh, like I think we've discussed that.

[58:33] Tommy: Absolutely. And plenty of other people have discussed it in more depth than we have. I don't know, like I think every, you know, every production of Oliver, God, and MTI and Concord will never do this, which makes me nuts, but like any when you get the book libretto, the physical paper of the musical you're gonna do, there should always be some front matter.

[58:37] Jimi: There should always be something there. Um, you know, if at all possible, have the authors do it. But like this belongs in the front matter of this musical context of the character of Fagin through history, um, because it's gonna inform the choices you make, and every production is gonna need to have this conversation.

[59:18] Tommy: If they don't have this conversation, they're doing it a disservice. Even if they accidentally stumble into an entirely non-offensive offensive portrayal, right?

[59:26] Jimi: That's, that was by accident, right?

[59:28] Tommy: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Um, so there you go. That's your note for today, Concord. We know you're listening. Um, T I maybe? Who knows? M T I. Uh, yeah, it's NTI that have it.

[59:41] Jimi: Um, camera Macintosh, of course.

[59:43] Tommy: Yeah. Uh, so the other character I want to speak about is Nancy.

[59:49] Jimi: Or Lucy as you like to say, British white woman name, they're all Sally.

[59:55] Tommy: There is, that's the two of them. Uh, is Nancy, Sally and Lucy.

[1:00:00] Jimi: Um, but yeah, I think in the realm of complex characters, bloody hell.

[1:00:07] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:00:08] Jimi: I'm still unpacking Nancy.

[1:00:09] Tommy: Yeah, totally. I, it really, and I'm, you know, early on in this, it struck me very much as men writing women. Um, like, oh, but she keeps going back to him in spite of how mean and abusive he is.

[1:00:25] Jimi: Um, the, I'm surprised. I found her very one dimensional.

[1:00:31] Tommy: Oh really.

[1:00:33] Jimi: No, I th, I think she is. I think she is one of the most tragic heroines in musical theater.

[1:00:40] Tommy: Like I really, really do.

[1:00:42] Jimi: And I, again, I've grown up with her.

[1:00:44] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:00:44] Jimi: So yeah, we've got, yeah.

[1:00:47] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:00:48] Jimi: Um, but it's, I like, I think her portrayal in the musical is just really, it is really complex because it, it's not, I don't think it's as simple as she just doesn't get it.

[1:01:04] Tommy: Or, you know, like Nancy, you should just get out of like what the hell are you playing at?

[1:01:09] Jimi: Like, or that it's, I don't even think it's as bad as, um, like Carousel, which I know we haven't really talked about it, and there's lots to talk about there as well.

[1:01:19] Tommy: But I actually think there's more of the other side in here than there is in Carousel.

[1:01:26] Jimi: Okay.

[1:01:26] Tommy: Um, I think Carousel is actually just a bit toxic.

[1:01:29] Jimi: And that is very, I'm a man writing about a poor woman.

[1:01:33] Tommy: Exactly.

[1:01:33] Jimi: Um, whereas there's stuff like basically because Nancy, before she dies, sees the light.

[1:01:44] Tommy: And I, the thing again, where is love? Nancy's own search for love, she finds it in Oliver for the first time.

[1:01:52] Jimi: Someone is being genuinely loving to her, you know what I mean?

[1:01:57] Tommy: Um, and in the movie, it's directed really well.

[1:02:01] Jimi: You know, you're convincing me.

[1:02:02] Tommy: Um, because that mo, that little exchange, do you know what I'm talking about? That little exchange in I Do Anything when he's singing to her, and you see her expression like just softens for the first time.

[1:02:13] Jimi: My understanding of, um, uh, Oom-Pah in the stage musical is that it's just a fun tavern drinking song.

[1:02:20] Tommy: Absolutely, opening text.

[1:02:21] Jimi: But um, in the movie, it is recast as this like distractionary, like that was some of the most high tension moment of the show for me.

[1:02:29] Tommy: Um, totally, totally because you know what's gonna happen, you know.

[1:02:33] Jimi: I mean, you know, like she's got constantly saying, like, no, deep down he loves me. We know that ain't true.

[1:02:41] Tommy: Um, and she finally fights against that instinct of just forgiving that, and she makes that choice.

[1:02:47] Jimi: And I think that kind of agency, again, this is still a little bit more than that.

[1:02:50] Tommy: That's true, and all because Oliver bowed to her accidentally in Fagin's hideout, how many scenes ago exactly like that there's, there's still a thought there.

[1:03:01] Jimi: You've changed my mind, yeah.

[1:03:04] Tommy: I love it when that happens.

[1:03:06] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:03:07] Tommy: Uh, but also, yeah, I think like the song As Long as He Needs Me, um, is it's a challenging song, like it is a challenging sort of thing because she, you hear the conflict through it constantly she's saying people tell me shit, but I need to go with this, you know what I mean?

[1:03:26] Jimi: And this idea of like you don't know what it's like to be lonely and have no one, it's, is it better to have someone I guess and the, my brain is unpacking this right now, but I am analyzing this with, you know, what, 70 years of this trope being, uh, well God, I was gonna say beaten to death.

[1:03:46] Tommy: Um, maybe I should find a different choice of words, um, through different pieces of media, whereas it is more revolutionary of its time to have this kind of, you know, conflicted abusive relationships.

[1:04:03] Jimi: But still in love, female character.

[1:04:06] Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:04:07] Jimi: Like it isn't, it's, it's not as good as some of the contemporary domestic abuse storylines that we see where there is power and there is agency and there is, you know, I mean support.

[1:04:17] Tommy: Um, but there's, it's, I don't think it's, uh, Carousel.

[1:04:23] Jimi: Well, and it's, I mean like it, you know, you, it, it gets satirized in, um, uh, Reefer Madness.

[1:04:28] Tommy: Um, it has entered, uh, that echelon of literary commentary.

[1:04:38] Jimi: Um, but it has to start somewhere.

[1:04:41] Tommy: Absolutely.

[1:04:42] Jimi: Um, actually if, if people are interested, and this is a bit silly, what I'm about to say, but if people are interested in unpacking that song more, um, our favourite Andrew Lloyd Webber did a reality TV competition um called I Do Anything, uh that, um, brought out, I think it was in 2006, and they did the revival um with Rowan Atkinson as Fagin.

[1:05:04] Tommy: Um, and it was Jodie, well, I shouldn't spoil it.

[1:05:07] Jimi: Oh, that's fine.

[1:05:08] Tommy: It was Jodie Pranger who won.

[1:05:09] Jimi: Um, this is also where Rachel Tucker of Elphaba Come from Way Fame came from.

[1:05:15] Tommy: You know, I mean there was some good people on that show, uh, but a lot of the time they unpack the complexities of that song, and actually it, it's really good.

[1:05:26] Jimi: It's really, really good.

[1:05:27] Tommy: And so everything I read, Lloyd Webber loves this show.

[1:05:31] Jimi: He loves, and he attributed, he says Lionel Bart, I would be nowhere without Lionel Bart, which is something.

[1:05:37] Tommy: Um, could have given him some money before he died, you know, but that was fine.

[1:05:42] Jimi: You can't go that far.

[1:05:44] Tommy: Exactly, still a Tory.

[1:05:45] Jimi: Um, so yeah, I, if, if you are interested in unpacking that song more, I would, I would check that out.

[1:05:54] Tommy: I, in some ways it's, it's not as silly as Over the Rainbow.

[1:05:57] Jimi: Over the Rainbow is still silly.

[1:05:59] Tommy: I Do Anything is actually quite good.

[1:06:01] Jimi: What would be the weirdest show?

[1:06:03] Tommy: I've already answered, but I'll ask you the question. What would be the weirdest show for Andrew Lloyd Webber to make a like reality show casting competition about?

[1:06:05] Jimi: Reality TV show? Or let me think of something really stupid.

[1:06:14] Tommy: Uh, The Frogs.

[1:06:14] Jimi: I was gonna say Sucicle.

[1:06:17] Tommy: But okay, that'll you throw an interest.

[1:06:20] Jimi: But what would be the character?

[1:06:25] Tommy: Or The Cat in the Hat, that would make it silly.

[1:06:23] Jimi: Is like, okay, yeah, yeah.

[1:06:25] Tommy: We're gonna find the next one. They're gonna compete to play the, anyway.

[1:06:29] Jimi: Yeah, for my, for Frogs, it would be like they're gonna compete to play Hades, which to be honest, I would enter that competition.

[1:06:36] Tommy: That's a good competition.

[1:06:38] Jimi: Yeah, um, yeah.

[1:06:40] Tommy: So there you go. The characters.

[1:06:43] Jimi: There's other characters in it.

[1:06:43] Tommy: They have names that I can't remember as well.

[1:06:47] Jimi: No, you absolutely can't.

[1:06:47] Tommy: Um, but I would say they are the complexities.

[1:06:52] Jimi: Um, good segue.

[1:06:54] Tommy: Hop on.

[1:06:52] Jimi: I've been saying it all along.

[1:06:54] Tommy: Oh great, we're back.

[1:06:58] Jimi: You wanna talk about the movie?

[1:07:02] Tommy: I do want to talk about the movie.

[1:07:02] Jimi: If you are lonely, then you will know when someone needs you you love them so people.

[1:07:25] Tommy: I've got to die.

[1:07:25] Jimi: As long as he specifically want to talk about the emissions.

[1:07:54] Tommy: Yes.

[1:07:53] Jimi: Of which there are plenty.

[1:07:54] Tommy: The carbon emissions.

[1:07:56] Jimi: No, I don't mean that.

[1:07:57] Tommy: Um, I mean the old.

[1:07:59] Jimi: I miss of all things, That's Your Funeral.

[1:08:03] Tommy: Oh, of course.

[1:08:05] Jimi: It's a great song.

[1:08:10] Tommy: Oh, what a great song.

[1:08:13] Jimi: It also, it reminds me of, um, and I, I didn't look up to see if it was the same actress.

[1:08:19] Tommy: There is a, um, this will be a deep cut.

[1:08:24] Jimi: There is a musical review called Tom Foolery.

[1:08:31] Tommy: Yes.

[1:08:31] Jimi: Tom Lehrer songs.

[1:08:31] Tommy: Um, and there's some recording in there that I, I can't quite place right now that That's Your Funeral sounds exactly like.

[1:08:39] Jimi: So the, the nineteen ninety-four was produced around the same time as Tom Foolery.

[1:08:44] Tommy: So I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same person.

[1:08:47] Jimi: I think we can find that digging, but it is that very like, you know.

[1:08:52] Tommy: That's the kind of musical theater song I really like.

[1:08:54] Jimi: It's, I really like, um, uh, Motherhood America and a hot lunch for orphans in Hello Dolly.

[1:09:01] Tommy: Like this is a song that belongs on stage, that doesn't make sense when you're just listening to it.

[1:09:09] Jimi: Absolutely.

[1:09:10] Tommy: It's comic.

[1:09:10] Jimi: It is so much like it will leave you roaring in the aisles, I'm sure.

[1:09:14] Tommy: Um, like, and it's a sh, the um, coughs and wheezes line is, uh, uh, God, I know what you're thinking of.

[1:09:24] Jimi: I remember thinking like that's a great lyric, and then I didn't write it again.

[1:09:27] Tommy: Yeah, exactly.

[1:09:28] Jimi: I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna look up.

[1:09:29] Tommy: I'm gonna look up right now.

[1:09:30] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:09:31] Tommy: Wheel of coughs and wheezes and diseases called Incurable.

[1:09:35] Jimi: That's your funeral, no one else's funeral.

[1:09:39] Tommy: Yeah, like, come on.

[1:09:41] Jimi: It's so, it's very, it's well written, it's built for the stage.

[1:09:46] Tommy: This is, I think these kinds of songs are some of the most difficult to write.

[1:09:52] Jimi: Um, because they don't feel like the most difficult to write.

[1:09:57] Tommy: You know, you'd think, um, you know, Where is Love?

[1:10:00] Jimi: Oh yeah, and it's important and it's the keystone to the show, and we must get it.

[1:10:04] Tommy: But so then you've already put all that thought into it.

[1:10:07] Jimi: Whereas like this is a, you know, it's kind of an exposition song, it's kind of a comedy song.

[1:10:12] Tommy: Right, and this was only written, um, this was written way into previews, um, because, uh, Barry Humphries, he was so good, he was like, Oh, I need to give you a song.

[1:10:24] Jimi: So he wrote him this, which is gold.

[1:10:27] Tommy: It's so many people's favorite song in the show.

[1:10:30] Jimi: Um, but yeah, it's not in the musical, which is a shame.

[1:10:33] Tommy: Um, what else are we missing?

[1:10:36] Jimi: Wait, let me see if we can do this.

[1:10:37] Tommy: Um, we're missing, uh, the one between Bumble and Tinder.

[1:10:44] Jimi: Um, is that, it's about screaming.

[1:10:48] Tommy: Um, I, I guess I shall scream.

[1:10:50] Jimi: Um, I shall scream.

[1:10:53] Tommy: And then the thing you want to talk about, uh, because we meet Bill Sykes too early in the movie, so we can't have his introduction song, which I imagine is in act two.

[1:11:05] Jimi: Um, about, is it, is it just called My Name?

[1:11:09] Tommy: It's just called My Name.

[1:11:10] Jimi: It is an act one, but it's, it's far through.

[1:11:12] Tommy: Um, yeah, so My Name.

[1:11:14] Jimi: Right.

[1:11:15] Tommy: Bill Sykes shouldn't have a song.

[1:11:18] Jimi: Huh.

[1:11:18] Tommy: Tell me more.

[1:11:22] Jimi: Like, why should Bill Sykes have a song?

[1:11:24] Tommy: I mean, it's not a great song.

[1:11:26] Jimi: Uh, for starters, uh, I hate it.

[1:11:29] Tommy: Um, like Bill Sykes, we don't need to see behind the facade of Bill Sykes to know his inner machinations.

[1:11:38] Jimi: Like, we know he's scum.

[1:11:39] Tommy: We know he's, he's not a, he doesn't need to sing about that.

[1:11:43] Jimi: Basically, I think, um, the song My Name is stupid.

[1:11:50] Tommy: And therefore it actually brings you out of the illusion that he is this evil, dangerous man.

[1:11:57] Jimi: That's true. Bill Sykes would never sing. Um, Bill Sykes would never sing. And the fact that one of the lyrics is, sorry, I'm just gonna get it. Um, biceps like an iron girder fit for doing of a murder. Like, who's why is he talking about his biceps? I mean, that's Gaston. Do you know what this song should be called? This song should be called his name, and all of the people in the pub should sing it, you know, oh Bill Sykes, oh don't say that. Right? Right, exactly. Or yeah, maybe Fagin's trying to warn Oliver, don't like watch out, cause this man's, you know what I mean? Like, it i it's just a bad, it's a bad song. And it is, it's very much a we need to give him a song.

[1:12:40] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:12:41] Jimi: So let's give him a song. You don't need to give him a song. He doesn't need humanized, we don't need to hear his thoughts. Maybe we're switching sides on this because I do think um the kind of uh uh uh music hall mentality that has gone into this show would very much say that he does need a song.

[1:12:59] Tommy: But music hall was never like dark.

[1:13:02] Jimi: But so, and all the more reason to lighten up Bill Sykes, all the more reason every character can't you can't introduce a character without a song. That's just how it works.

[1:13:11] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:13:11] Jimi: And when the actor walks out on stage, they gotta sing a song about themselves.

[1:13:15] Tommy: Fair, right?

[1:13:16] Jimi: And in the music hall, yeah, absolutely that's the tradition. But I think if like it's i it is literally the only fault I have with the book of this musical is this number. I just don't think, I think it is token.

[1:13:30] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:13:31] Jimi: I don't think it lends itself to anything. But yeah, I know what you mean. Like, if we're sticking with that tradition, then he would need one. If he, if he uh this will be fun, if he needed a song and it and it wasn't my name, what song would you write for him?

[1:13:46] Tommy: Um, a really like a really nasty like seditious song that he sang to Nancy. Like this is like a sweet like you are mine, like that kind of and uh, you know in Waitress they have a domestic abuse storyline. That guy is scum, right? He has a st he's a lot, obviously he's a lot more stupid than Bill Sykes, but that song is all about I control you.

[1:14:14] Jimi: Like we, and I think that's more powerful than my trade. We need to see Bill Sykes being evil during his song.

[1:14:20] Tommy: Yeah, and exactly not just saying I'm a big old brute and I'll kill you. And we because the show is differentiating between acceptable evil and unacceptable evil, like this introduction stands in stark contrast to Pick a Pocket or Two, which is light and fluffy and hilarious about crime and Bill Sykes's needs to be about like murder and beating people.

[1:14:44] Jimi: It does. It does indeed. Um, so yeah, that's my hot take on the image. In the film, he's really scary.

[1:14:51] Tommy: He's real scary in the film.

[1:14:53] Jimi: Yeah. I've, and uh like since childhood, I find him scary. Like he's a scary, scary man, and that dog.

[1:15:01] Tommy: Um, that one's funny to me.

[1:15:04] Jimi: Yeah, even though he has his redemption movie, which is brilliant. Um, yeah, of course. Scary.

[1:15:10] Tommy: Um, although in HD, that scar is very obviously fake.

[1:15:15] Jimi: And you know what it is? My introduction. Have you seen Bullseye the Target dog?

[1:15:19] Tommy: No, Bullseye the mascot for Target, um has been for, is it a bulldog as well?

[1:15:24] Jimi: I believe.

[1:15:25] Tommy: Pitbull.

[1:15:26] Jimi: Bullseye Target. Um, dog, dog, I gotta type in there because Bullseye target. Uh, I believe it's a bulldog.

[1:15:33] Tommy: Oh, okay.

[1:15:34] Jimi: It's a pit bull.

[1:15:35] Tommy: It's a pit bull, but has the target bullseye painted on its eyeball. And what's the name? That's the dog in Little Rascals. Is the dog in Little Rascals called Bullseye?

[1:15:45] Tommy: No, but that's what it's like that because he's got the, oh no, it's different, it's a different breed entirely.

[1:15:52] Jimi: I'll see you later. But the moment this white bulldog with a scar across its eye, named Bullseye came on the screen. All I could picture, and like the image that came up for me when I Googled this is Bullseye in front of a laptop. Um, and so it was hard for that to be scary.

[1:16:09] Tommy: To be threatening and scary.

[1:16:10] Jimi: Yeah, okay, fair, fair, fair, fair. Um, no, and the host this could be a video for you, by the way. And the host of like scary uh Victorian film adaptation dogs. You've got Bullseye, you've got the one in Mary Poppins that's in the alleyway.

[1:16:24] Tommy: Yep, I can hear it.

[1:16:25] Jimi: Really scary dogs.

[1:16:26] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:16:27] Jimi: Horrifying. Um, there's more, but I can't think where they are. I'll get it so you can make the list of video. But it's returned. It does speak to the kind of long tradition of of uh British fiction scaring children, and like that's the part of it, right?

[1:16:42] Tommy: Um, because Oliver Twist, or Oliver, at least the musical, and I would I would wager several of the adaptations, probably not the original serialized novella and then book. Um, but the rest, you know, do trend to like this is for kids. You know, it's for families. It's not certainly just for adults, although we need to put a content warning on that uh uh uh Mary gets murdered.

[1:17:05] Jimi: I did that one on purpose.

[1:17:09] Tommy: Nice.

[1:17:10] Jimi: Um, but yeah, I yeah, I would agree. The yeah, it is what it's worth. I love the production design of this movie.

[1:17:21] Tommy: Absolutely.

[1:17:22] Jimi: It's solid, right? It's gorgeous. And like the part, the setting that struck me the most is the alleyway out could you call it that the swamp outside of Fagin's uh uh layer with like the curved staircase and the swamp, and I was so pleased that it got plot time at the end.

[1:17:43] Tommy: Right with the staircase sinking and the losing of the jewels and like I you know, even when they did a little kickline on that bridge earlier with the kids, I was like, Yes, this gets more time. Um, the fact that it continued to be evocative and plot motivating, you know. I think that's one of my favorite as a tech theater guy, when your setting can inform your plot is is a hard thing to do.

[1:18:11] Jimi: Um, it's not just the background, but becomes interactive in the story. Um, then when it successfully happens and convincingly happens, it's like a perfect, you know, the it's the perfect kind of plot foreshadowing because you'd never think, oh, rickety's rickety staircase. And they don't spend time thinking being like, oh, gotta get this fixed, right?

[1:18:36] Tommy: You don't need to.

[1:18:37] Jimi: You just looked at it and you know that it looks like how it is. This is Ramshackle, this is gonna fall apart. But then it will never feel out of left field when it falls apart later because you've seen it earlier, and you get that satisfying thing you get of like a plot foreshadowing coming to fruition without having to spend any dialogue time on it.

[1:18:55] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:18:56] Jimi: Exactly, exactly. No, it's it's so smart. And like they do it like there's even little bits of that as well, because like in um consider yourself when they're kind of going through all the different like work uh working places, and then when Oliver runs away from um Mr. Brown, who will never remember his name.

[1:19:12] Tommy: Um, but when it was and then he gets like wrapped up in one of them sacks and that gets pulled. You know, I mean like there's call like it's still the same world. And he ends up on the train track which we had seen earlier, seen earlier, it's a it's a tight scenic existence, which is really nice.

[1:19:28] Jimi: And I and they could have very much gone the other way, right? They could have been completely different settings for all these things. But to put it not just in London, but like on the same street in London.

[1:19:39] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:19:40] Jimi: There's something quaint in the cinematic about that. That I think, you know, because I think to like something like Hello Dolly, which doesn't do that. Um, partially for sake of its plot, but not entirely, you know.

[1:19:53] Tommy: Right.

[1:19:54] Jimi: It only takes a moment, could be outside of Harmonia Gardens. Like I I think that is, you know, the unity of place is a often overlook unity that people accidentally break. And I think you can break all the unities, but you should do so intentionally.

[1:20:10] Tommy: Um, but see if you can keep the unity of locale and uh and Oliver the movie does it in some pretty cool ways.

[1:20:17] Jimi: Totally.

[1:20:18] Tommy: Yeah, I've never really thought about that probably, but yeah, I think it's like once once we get to London makes it solid. We're never more than a mile away from the other locations in this movie.

[1:20:29] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:20:31] Tommy: Yeah. I like it.

[1:20:33] Jimi: And then when you are, it's a different world because it's the upper class, and it is a different world. You know, I mean it is a different London.

[1:20:39] Tommy: Yeah, smart.

[1:20:41] Jimi: Well done, production designer. I don't know who that was, but well done you.

[1:20:44] Tommy: Um also, right?

[1:20:48] Jimi: Can you tell why Portobello Road annoys me?

[1:20:51] Tommy: Yes, because this does it much better.

[1:20:53] Jimi: Right, exactly. And so I've been spoiled.

[1:20:55] Tommy: You absolutely have been.

[1:20:56] Jimi: And the whole um uh uh consider yourself segment is just a delight. Um, is it unadulterated musical.

[1:21:05] Tommy: And is exactly the same plot motivation that Portobello Road has.

[1:21:09] Jimi: I do absolutely wish, okay. The thing that Portobello Road does better than uh Consider Yourself does, is throughout Portobello Road, Eglantine is still searching for the book. And so we still get little plot cutaways to things that are happening.

[1:21:27] Tommy: Consider Yourself would be a little better, and I'd have to watch it again, but I don't think he does it, if Dodger was also pickpocketing people.

[1:21:35] Jimi: He is if like there is just just a couple just here and there.

[1:21:39] Tommy: He is but like to to give us to because otherwise, like I like consider yourself. It's uh it is plot agnostic. We do not need the song at all.

[1:21:52] Jimi: Exactly.

[1:21:52] Tommy: It's just welcome to London. Here and everyone's your class.

[1:21:57] Jimi: And but I my struggle with it is the lyrics are not welcome to London. They're not here is the setting we're in. They don't tell you, like if you're just listening to it, they don't tell you any of the information that that song is trying to communicate.

[1:22:14] Tommy: Right.

[1:22:14] Jimi: Which is the very particular kind and time place and setting of London that we're in right now. Now, everything else takes up the slack, certainly. Tossing meat and fish over and everyone dance right, and and I guess they do, you know what the plot they do do? We do learn that Dodger is afraid of the cops.

[1:22:32] Tommy: Um, that is the plot that happens throughout, and good on them for doing that.

[1:22:37] Jimi: Um, it's got that like kind of street smart.

[1:22:40] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:22:40] Jimi: Like he knows everyone. Do you know what I mean? Like you can see the classes coming at, you know, like that kind of idea.

[1:22:46] Tommy: So it does set that up certainly in its visuals, but you gotta watch it to see any of that.

[1:22:51] Jimi: Um, you know, benefit of the doubt, this is a 1960 show. This is a we're so early in this art form.

[1:22:58] Tommy: Absolutely.

[1:22:59] Jimi: But writing it again, it'd be the verses would be sung. It would be uh Bonjour from Beauty and the Beast. And you'd hear more about the baker with his tray like always and you know, the butchers chopping their things, like you'd get more exposition in the lyrics about the stuff that's happening.

[1:23:18] Tommy: I am Who Who Are The Us?

[1:23:20] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:23:20] Tommy: That you're one of, you know, who are the Us. The things I'm learning is like you can draw, huh? I'm thinking of my like Pepe Silvia style red yarn wall of like Bonjour is consider yourself but better.

[1:23:33] Jimi: Um, in a more contemporary musical theater tone. And I'm I'm seeing more and more of those drawbacks to Oliver. That's all.

[1:23:41] Tommy: Now, as a self-professed musical theater scholar, I'm kicking myself that I haven't been into this musical yet.

[1:23:49] Jimi: Oliver.

[1:23:51] Tommy: I'll tell you why soon, why you weren't into it. I'll tell you it's coming.

[1:23:55] Jimi: I thought that was more of a gimmick earlier, but now I'm anxious to know.

[1:23:59] Tommy: You're like, what is it? Explain me?

[1:24:02] Jimi: I'm gonna say you're gonna be like, no, it's bullshit.

[1:24:05] Tommy: Probably.

[1:24:05] Jimi: That seems that seems on brand.

[1:24:07] Tommy: That's fair.

[1:24:08] Jimi: Well, hey, should we do it?

[1:24:26] Tommy: So just sky can see up with a rainbow.

[1:24:35] Jimi: There'll never be another baseline or not.

[1:24:52] Tommy: Um, okay. This isn't necessarily what this segment is all about, but I've teased it long enough.

[1:24:59] Jimi: Okay, Tommy. The reason I think you don't like Oliver is the same reason why you don't like Phantom Joseph, Sadsif Boulevard.

[1:25:10] Tommy: Anything British.

[1:25:14] Jimi: Now, I'm not saying you're a big old British racist.

[1:25:19] Tommy: I don't think there's a word for that, because you know shit.

[1:25:23] Jimi: Um, I would put that more academically, but yes.

[1:25:27] Tommy: Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:25:28] Jimi: I'll just I'll say it for you. But I think there is a thing about American perceptions of British musicals.

[1:25:40] Tommy: I could see that.

[1:25:41] Jimi: Tell me, tell me more.

[1:25:43] Tommy: So the reason I had this light bulb moment, this epiphany, was because when Oliver came over, there was a significant number it did very well critically, but there is a significant number who were disparaging.

[1:26:01] Jimi: Um, and they were disparaging about it because they said it was it it didn't stay true enough to the book.

[1:26:09] Tommy: Okay.

[1:26:10] Jimi: Right. My argument there is you don't really want to.

[1:26:16] Tommy: Exactly, right?

[1:26:17] Jimi: And it's not like musical theatre's this really brilliant dark art form. Hello, Hello Dolly's coming in about five minutes. So let's just ease up on that one, shall we? Um, but yeah, that was their main thing. But also underpinning their narrative is this British invasion. And very much sticking to the fact that no, no, no, American, it is the American musical, it is an American art form. You joke, you know, Tommy's a big old American racist, but I do think there is a British racist, pardon me. Yes, British. I do think there is, you're right, there's an unexplored part of American history certainly informed, let's say by the Beatles, um, about this, you know, we are, I mean, fuck, we are a xenophobic country on the best of days. Um, I think we're, uh, like we like to think we have targeted xenophobia, but I think we have, and certainly we do, don't get me wrong. Um, but we also have latent xenophobia that we haven't acknowledged.

[1:27:21] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:27:22] Jimi: And you know, like the kind of, oh pip pip cheerio lol, like it is a, there is a, like, you know what I mean? But in the same way, we're also a bit like you.

[1:27:34] Tommy: Y'all, yeah, yeah, y'all.

[1:27:36] Jimi: Right, exactly, you know. Um, but I think there is an protectiveness over this American art form, right? Uh, I think Oliver ignited this spark because actually prior to Oliver, there really hadn't been many successes from the UK. Um, we had, I think like the Boyfriend did come over, but it wasn't, uh, you know, I mean it wasn't significant, it didn't make a mark. Um, and it was also still quite small scale. Whereas Oliver was like, this is the institution. You know what I mean?

[1:28:14] Tommy: Yeah, and it did its pre-Broadway tour, which I also love, um, where, um, it like recouped, I'll talk about that later because it's, yeah, that's coming later. Check of the notes, it's coming later. Um, but yeah, uh, like this idea of like you're impeding on our art form, could there be something because, right? You love Sweeney.

[1:28:40] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:28:42] Tommy: You like My Fair Lady.

[1:28:45] Jimi: But I also like Mary Poppins.

[1:28:50] Tommy: Which is American.

[1:28:51] Jimi: Not I like the musical, which is decidedly British.

[1:28:55] Tommy: Is um, no, no, no.

[1:28:57] Jimi: It was written by two American men.

[1:28:59] Tommy: Okay.

[1:29:00] Jimi: But is it, I mean, so, oh do you mean like the, the, not the film?

[1:29:07] Tommy: Not the film. The, the, the.

[1:29:09] Jimi: Right. But the sh, uh, yeah, but um, uh, I've forgotten the names.

[1:29:14] Tommy: Stells and Drew were writing in the style of the Shamer Brothers.

[1:29:18] Jimi: Which is fair. Right? They don't write like that. I will give you many other shows and they don't sound as good as that. They were writing with that simplistic style. Um, but I, okay. So my question is, I, but I, many of these shows, let's take, uh, I don't know, Cats, would you say Cats falls in this category?

[1:29:43] Tommy: Yeah, absolutely.

[1:29:44] Jimi: I didn't like Cats before I knew anything about that.

[1:29:47] Tommy: Uh-huh.

[1:29:48] Jimi: So is it, I'm trying to unpack, I don't, I like, I think you're right, but I'm trying to unpack what is it about the British musical style that rubs me the wrong way.

[1:30:01] Tommy: The fact it was written by a British man.

[1:30:03] Jimi: But I, but I don't, but I didn't know that when I didn't like Cats.

[1:30:06] Tommy: Are you sure?

[1:30:07] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:30:08] Tommy: Oh yeah. I didn't like Cats as a young kid.

[1:30:11] Jimi: Okay.

[1:30:12] Tommy: You know.

[1:30:13] Jimi: And I, you know.

[1:30:14] Tommy: Maybe there's something epigenetic about it then. Maybe there's something that's, you know, in its DNA.

[1:30:20] Jimi: Sure.

[1:30:21] Tommy: But like I think it's, I do wonder if it is that kind of, because we've talked, Oliver is kind of the beginning of that, the mega musical trend, right? This is where this kicks off. Um, and is where we start to have the concept of the Euro musical, which also includes things like Les Mis, which I certainly do have, like I enjoy Les Mis, but not as much as maybe I should. Um, like, well you show me something better.

[1:30:48] Jimi: Right.

[1:30:48] Tommy: Do you know what I mean? Like, but I do think it is that if you ask, I gone, you don't really like Miss Saigon.

[1:30:53] Jimi: I don't like Miss Saigon because I think it's kind of racist.

[1:30:56] Tommy: Um, yeah, I know, but also you're just not a big fan of the show.

[1:30:59] Jimi: But it's mostly 'cause it's kinda racist though, for real.

[1:31:02] Tommy: Okay, fair.

[1:31:03] Jimi: Yeah, fair. But there's something there, Tommy.

[1:31:05] Tommy: Yeah, I'll have to do some soul searching.

[1:31:08] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:31:08] Tommy: I'll need to just make a big list of British shows.

[1:31:11] Jimi: Tell you the exception. London Road, you quite like that.

[1:31:13] Tommy: I really enjoyed London Road.

[1:31:15] Jimi: London Road doesn't have, okay, this sentence I'm about to say sounds stupid. London Road doesn't have the things that I don't like about British musicals.

[1:31:22] Tommy: Right, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:31:23] Jimi: London Road is not at all informed by some of the tenets of, uh, pantomime or music hall.

[1:31:30] Tommy: But also, London Road didn't invade the US.

[1:31:36] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:31:36] Tommy: Didn't have a look how good we are.

[1:31:39] Jimi: London Road is like safe. But for that, but for that to be a successful track, I would have need to know, uh, more about the British invasion for me to even subconsciously have that thought. And like this is, those are thoughts that have developed over the course of this podcast right now.

[1:31:57] Tommy: But maybe, maybe like for the others, like when you knew Andrew Lloyd Webber was the big British guy coming over to the States.

[1:32:08] Jimi: But I like, I like Evita.

[1:32:11] Tommy: Yeah, but you don't love Evita.

[1:32:14] Jimi: You, Evita's your favorite Andrew Lloyd Webber.

[1:32:16] Tommy: Yeah, but I don't not like it.

[1:32:19] Jimi: Okay.

[1:32:20] Tommy: There's always exceptions to every room. Listen, I've cracked it. Don't you take this over here? I'm sure people will run with it on Twitter and on the Discord. It's flawless. There's no holes.

[1:32:33] Jimi: But I'm also like I'm rolling around in my brain because I, but I knew you wouldn't like Oliver, right? I knew you wouldn't like it.

[1:32:39] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:32:40] Jimi: And I didn't think you would hate it.

[1:32:42] Tommy: Right, right.

[1:32:43] Jimi: But I knew you'd be like, no, I'm not into this.

[1:32:45] Tommy: To the extent.

[1:32:47] Jimi: Right. Like I'm probably, I'll go back and listen to "Pick a Pocket" and "That's Your Funeral," and maybe "Consider Yourself."

[1:32:55] Tommy: Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:32:56] Jimi: And that's probably what I'd put on my do not like reviewing the situation.

[1:32:59] Tommy: I love it.

[1:33:00] Jimi: Oh, I do like "Reviewing the Situation." Yes, I do very, I would perform "Reviewing the Situation."

[1:33:05] Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's great. Um, yeah, okay, so but I knew that before like, and it's weird because people have said it on Twitter or something like that where it's like, I th, I can imagine Tommy's gonna hate this, but why is it? But so why is it 'cause like I don't, I find, um, we haven't mentioned it yet, but I find "Be Back Soon," which is in the style of a song that I would enjoy as like frustratingly unimportant.

[1:33:30] Jimi: Right, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:33:32] Tommy: Like it's so, it's such a n, it's such a nothing song.

[1:33:36] Jimi: It's a set change song.

[1:33:38] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:33:39] Jimi: Change your set. Like write a better song. Fuck. Like, there's so many better solutions.

[1:33:45] Tommy: I really like "Be Back Soon." Like it's, it sounds like I, I, I had to look this up to convince myself that it wasn't the fact. I thought that was like the act one closer, and it was like, okay, audience, see you in a minute. Chip chip. Sorry, I'm doing that racist American thing.

[1:34:02] Jimi: That's fine, that's funny.

[1:34:04] Tommy: Sweet tea.

[1:34:08] Jimi: That was the most American phrase you could come up with.

[1:34:12] Tommy: Thank you. Sweet tea. Uh, yeah.

[1:34:15] Jimi: You also didn't like Matilda that much.

[1:34:18] Tommy: Come on.

[1:34:19] Jimi: That's fair. There's something to this.

[1:34:21] Tommy: Yeah, but that might, and we'll talk more about this. That might have more to do with that I hate children. Um, like Annie, and that's not a British musical.

[1:34:30] Jimi: Right, okay, yeah, fair.

[1:34:32] Tommy: Did you know that Thomas Meehan actually has British lineage?

[1:34:37] Jimi: So that's why you hate Annie.

[1:34:40] Tommy: Jimi, we all have British lineage, because as you said, y'all are shit.

[1:34:45] Jimi: We are shit. Just saying.

[1:34:53] Tommy: Thank you. That's all I want. Anyway, what even is the segment?

[1:34:58] Jimi: I, well, okay. The thing I wanted to talk about is how this is a show of fake Britishness.

[1:35:06] Tommy: Where's the fakeness coming from, sir?

[1:35:09] Jimi: We have talked about this before, and that there is this culturally invented identity. Um, the book I read, um, uh, Oliver: A Dickensian Musical, and granted I did not read the whole thing, um, but worth picking up if this is your jam. Its final summation, because you didn't read the conclusion, was right.

[1:35:28] Tommy: Tommy Nolan.

[1:35:29] Jimi: Yes, there's chapter nine is Tommy Nolan hates musicals.

[1:35:33] Tommy: No.

[1:35:34] Jimi: A reading of Mash is what it's called. Uh, the author, Mark, uh, talks about manufactured cultural identities, um, and that in a post-war England, just the idea of this Dickensian England was starting to become, I think the phrase he uses is a culture text. Um, where its existence starts to inform the history that's in it is intending to represent and the text itself starts to become the history and where the lines are become blurred. Um, and then certainly the adaptation of Oliver into a musical hopped onto that as well, because of all of its musical tendencies, which are not in the book, right? You could have done different style of music with the show.

[1:36:21] Tommy: Um, but Bart picked these, you know, like, um, "Oom-Pah-Pah" is absolutely a big old music hall number.

[1:36:30] Jimi: Um, because it is building on this cultural identity which is mirrored. I mean, and I don't mean to say this isn't what England is like, right? But that there is, you know, by remembering it this way, we start to replace the actual history with our remembrance of the history.

[1:36:55] Tommy: Uh-huh.

[1:36:57] Jimi: I think there's definitely, I think the fact that we talked about right in the beginning, because it's a musical, because this is a looking at London through rose-tinted glasses. This isn't what Victorian London was like. I think there is an element. What I would though argue is, um, "Oom-Pah-Pah" is like in every single way is a song that we would have sung in the pub, like you know what I mean? If that, if that was the same thing, you know, it is the same as "Let's All Go Down the Strand," "Have a Banana," like it is, it's the same song. And that did happen. That isn't manufactured.

[1:37:31] Tommy: Right.

[1:37:33] Jimi: Do you know what I mean? Um, so in that respect I'm like, well, that's bingo.

[1:37:39] Tommy: Yeah, sure, but I think the, I think there are definitely elements of it that are more, you know, and it's, I would say particularly with things like look and costume.

[1:37:53] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:37:54] Tommy: Like that kind of thing, like the, you know, the scrunched up top hat.

[1:37:58] Jimi: Right.

[1:37:59] Tommy: Or the corset and the, like they're period costumes, but they're so specific, and it's like you'll never have an adaptation without them.

[1:38:08] Jimi: Right. Well, and this is the, it was one of the best lessons I ever had in, uh, costume history class. Um, it was a bunch of photos. Oh god, I'm gonna get this wrong and I'm gonna feel bad about it. There were photos of a costume production of some Greek tragedy that was put on in the 1920s, um, when women were really into like tight, tight corsets. And so of course, all their costumes had these tight, tight corsets, but we're trying to evoke this Grecian, you know, traditional toga-esque garb. Um, and you do run into this difficulty is all of these things are informed both by the time period they're attempting to represent and the time period they're in now, and how we view that time period from where we're at.

[1:38:59] Tommy: Um, you know, it struck me in, in, uh, the film, um, and I, I mean this in the most sincere and honest way possible. Like, Oliver has great teeth.

[1:39:13] Jimi: Right.

[1:39:13] Tommy: They all do.

[1:39:14] Jimi: They all do.

[1:39:17] Tommy: Except for Fagin, which you know also says something.

[1:39:20] Jimi: Um, and like I say this not as a commentary on British culture, but as a commentary on how the turn of the last century was. Right. They didn't have good teeth in the Victorian era. But they're not gonna spend the time giving them shitty teeth, nor are they gonna make that design choice, right?

[1:39:36] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:39:37] Jimi: And so this stuff starts to, you know, that's an overt, easy to see example, but you're right. There are all these other, you know, like, uh, only, uh, Fanny, God, what's her name?

[1:39:46] Tommy: Lucy?

[1:39:47] Jimi: Nancy.

[1:39:48] Tommy: Damn it.

[1:39:49] Jimi: Um, it's like it's legitimately a broken part of my brain that deals with names. Just think Pelosi.

[1:39:55] Tommy: Just, oh man, that adds up. Can you imagine the whole show?

[1:39:59] Jimi: Um, like Nancy is always in, you know, this bright red dress, right? Like, this is a costuming choice, not a period choice.

[1:40:08] Tommy: Um, all of the orphans, orphans, workhouse kids are in these monochromatic, you know, beige outfits, and then we meet Artful Dodger and crew, and you know, they're dressed like circus clowns.

[1:40:21] Jimi: Um, that's a costuming choice.

[1:40:24] Tommy: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um, yeah, it is, and I think it has in far because you think of then things like I'm thinking trying to think of like famous Victorian movie adaptations, the only thing that comes by head is Muppets Christmas Carol.

[1:40:37] Jimi: Sure.

[1:40:41] Jimi: Um when that isn't what you're going for, when you're going for that populist, like these are the things that you draw upon, you know what I mean?

[1:40:48] Tommy: Right.

[1:40:48] Jimi: And so I get like that's what I kind of mean, how this becomes this manufactured cultural identity, right?

[1:40:53] Tommy: Is it it continues to inform.

[1:40:55] Jimi: And it's been interesting. I've been looking at um uh more modern productions of Oliver.

[1:41:00] Jimi: There wasn't a fascinating one done at a place called the Arena Stage, which I didn't bother to look up where it was.

[1:41:05] Tommy: Oh, I think I just closed the Skype window.

[1:41:08] Jimi: I'm still here, don't worry. Where did I put you? There you are.

[1:41:11] Tommy: Okay.

[1:41:12] Jimi: Arena stage in Washington, DC.

[1:41:17] Tommy: Okay.

[1:41:17] Jimi: Oh.

[1:41:18] Tommy: Oh, of course.

[1:41:19] Jimi: That's where Dear Evan Hansen got to start.

[1:41:21] Tommy: Um so uh upcoming Dave the musical.

[1:41:24] Jimi: Yes.

[1:41:25] Tommy: Which we're all very excited about.

[1:41:27] Jimi: We're very excited about. Um so at Arena Stage, they did of Oliver in 2015, 2016, in the round with updated contemporary costumes.

[1:41:36] Jimi: Um, which was fascinating to see, but you still see how this Dickensian England has informed bits and pieces of these costumes.

[1:41:45] Tommy: Um yeah, which bits do you take and which bits do you discard?

[1:41:48] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:41:49] Tommy: Right.

[1:41:49] Jimi: And even any of the modern productions, like there was a uh a tour uh in the UK that had some presence online that I watched their trailers of, and it you know, to see Fagin has now become this kind of magician-esque part where he's you know doing uh uh handkerchief tricks and he's got you know a uh staff that appears in his hand, right?

[1:42:11] Jimi: Um, and also they've kind of updated him to be this more eccentric, less dirty, more loony character.

[1:42:20] Tommy: Um, and so you see so the parts that stick from that after you've sieved through, those are the parts that are this manufactured cultural identity.

[1:42:30] Jimi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:42:31] Tommy: It's just what we think the history is.

[1:42:33] Jimi: Absolutely. I think I think the what one of the things that is quite good to think about though, is that Oliver is British.

[1:42:41] Tommy: Right, right.

[1:42:42] Jimi: And so in the you know, the pantheon of adaptations of British content, um, I think this one is a good example, um, compared to something like Mary Poppins.

[1:42:58] Tommy: Right.

[1:42:58] Jimi: Especially the movie.

[1:43:00] Tommy: Yeah, quite a bad example of you know how just how British people sound.

[1:43:06] Jimi: Right.

[1:43:06] Tommy: Um because that's actually the the kind of use of Cockney in this show is something that Lionel Bart was able to do very well because he grew up in the East End of London.

[1:43:17] Jimi: He is, to all intents and purposes, a Cockney.

[1:43:20] Tommy: Right.

[1:43:20] Jimi: Um, and so is able to use it well without being like, here's a fun Cockney term, we'll throw that in.

[1:43:27] Tommy: Right.

[1:43:28] Jimi: Look at the camera, yeah.

[1:43:30] Tommy: Right.

[1:43:31] Jimi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:43:31] Tommy: Um, and it's the issue that I have with Brave.

[1:43:34] Jimi: Mm, sure.

[1:43:36] Tommy: Right?

[1:43:36] Jimi: I uh Brave is one of my least favorite Pixar films, I think because it's Scottish.

[1:43:41] Tommy: Right.

[1:43:41] Jimi: Well, because it's tried to be Scott.

[1:43:42] Tommy: No, I don't doubt John Lasseter knows the stuff and he does his research, right?

[1:43:47] Jimi: But I think for Brave he did too much research because he crammed every single Scottish turn of phrase that he possibly could into that thing, to the point where I was like, you need to stop.

[1:43:58] Tommy: We don't say it that much.

[1:44:00] Jimi: Right.

[1:44:00] Tommy: But you do you do end up.

[1:44:03] Jimi: Man, what was I watching?

[1:44:06] Tommy: It was some I think it's a Japanese cooking YouTube channel.

[1:44:16] Jimi: And they were making some like fried potato dish.

[1:44:19] Tommy: Uh, and the guy was describing it as like, this is a very, you know, people go out to bars and this is what they order.

[1:44:26] Jimi: This is a dish they like.

[1:44:27] Tommy: Um, it's very popular. But if you had a guest, an international guest in town, you wouldn't serve them this because you think it's boring.

[1:44:37] Jimi: Um, and you wouldn't if someone asked you to write down the cultural dishes, you wouldn't include this.

[1:44:43] Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:44:45] Jimi: And so because Oliver is intrinsically British, it gets the big things, but also happens to get those medium things.

[1:44:54] Tommy: Uh huh.

[1:44:55] Jimi: Like the things that a, you know, a non UK person would entirely look over, um, and that their research would never inform them of, just happen accidentally in this sort of thing.

[1:45:06] Tommy: Yeah, that's that is it.

[1:45:09] Jimi: It is all, yeah.

[1:45:10] Tommy: It's condensed into the Japanese snack story.

[1:45:13] Jimi: There you go. Feel free to use that analogy wherever you go, listeners.

[1:45:17] Tommy: They looked really yummy.

[1:45:18] Jimi: I forget what they were called. If I can find it, I'll put it in the show.

[1:45:21] Tommy: You just said fried potatoes, and I was like, yeah.

[1:45:22] Jimi: I know, I know. I'm also nervous.

[1:45:24] Jimi: I also follow some Korean cooking channels, so when I find it, I'll let you know what it is.

[1:45:29] Tommy: Okay, thank you.

[1:45:30] Jimi: I'm really excited.

[1:45:32] Tommy: Before we before we end this, the segment.

[1:45:35] Jimi: Uh huh.

[1:45:37] Tommy: You tweeted.

[1:45:38] Jimi: I said a thing on Twitter last night. I said all orphan musicals are the same.

[1:45:41] Tommy: And delightful have you read some of the responses, Jimmy?

[1:45:44] Jimi: Because I enjoy this.

[1:45:45] Tommy: I have indeed.

[1:45:46] Jimi: I'm glad to see that not everyone was in agreement with you.

[1:45:50] Tommy: My thought, of course, was Oliver is basically Annie.

[1:45:54] Jimi: Which No, sir, Annie is basically Oliver get your face out of the filter.

[1:46:01] Tommy: I don't know what I meant by that.

[1:46:03] Jimi: This is what that's all I wanted to show you about.

[1:46:06] Tommy: But they're the same.

[1:46:07] Jimi: They're the same.

[1:46:11] Tommy: Annie certainly copied Oliver.

[1:46:13] Jimi: I'll give you that.

[1:46:14] Tommy: There is elements of Annie in Oliver.

[1:46:17] Jimi: But like there's a reason why when you're young they come on the same VHS.

[1:46:23] Tommy: They do, actually.

[1:46:24] Jimi: But even even down to like, oh, and the the solution to finding your identity is in this locket.

[1:46:33] Tommy: The locket thing I will fully give you.

[1:46:36] Jimi: Annie stole that.

[1:46:37] Tommy: Uncannily the same.

[1:46:39] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:46:40] Tommy: Annie stole the locket.

[1:46:41] Jimi: But so I tweeted all orphan musicals are the same.

[1:46:43] Tommy: And my favorite one, someone tweeted back at me.

[1:46:47] Jimi: You mean like Annie and Hamilton?

[1:46:49] Tommy: And that was fun.

[1:46:52] Jimi: Um.

[1:46:53] Tommy: But I do think they it speaks to like it's you know, it's the Disney Dead Mother syndrome, right?

[1:47:00] Jimi: Uh huh.

[1:47:00] Tommy: Um that we've decided the only way you can have the dramatic import as a child is if one of your parents has died.

[1:47:08] Jimi: And the logical, you know, conclusion of that is simply being an orphan.

[1:47:13] Tommy: Or like, because like I'm thinking of Matilda here as well, actually.

[1:47:16] Jimi: Like, not that your parents die, but that your parents aren't good.

[1:47:19] Tommy: Right.

[1:47:19] Jimi: And so then as a child, you have to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and overcome your obstacles as if obstacles don't hit everyday kids.

[1:47:29] Tommy: Um and like I get it, when when you're creating a piece of literature, you have a limited amount of time to heighten the stakes in a world.

[1:47:37] Jimi: And so this is a cheat that you use.

[1:47:39] Tommy: Um of all of them, uh uh Oliver should be given the most lenience because of how old it is.

[1:47:47] Jimi: Exactly.

[1:47:47] Tommy: It's that same thing of like a trope becoming a trope, and so the original thing seems trite, but it's actually the most influential piece.

[1:47:55] Jimi: Yes, sir.

[1:47:56] Tommy: Which I'll happily acknowledge.

[1:47:59] Jimi: I would like you to put that on to Twitter, please.

[1:48:01] Tommy: Yeah, alright, typing.

[1:48:02] Jimi: Because there are a lot of people saying that Oliver copied Annie.

[1:48:04] Tommy: Type, tap, type, tap, type.

[1:48:06] Jimi: I wasn't happy about it.

[1:48:08] Tommy: So people are people are are uninformed anyway, and they should find out.

[1:48:12] Jimi: Although I did also enjoy uh including um Pirates of Penzance in this list.

[1:48:17] Tommy: Absolutely.

[1:48:19] Jimi: There's no law there.

[1:48:21] Tommy: But like even at even in Pirates that early on, it is satirizing perhaps this trope.

[1:48:29] Jimi: The orphan storyline.

[1:48:30] Tommy: Right.

[1:48:31] Jimi: It is certainly a satire.

[1:48:32] Tommy: I don't know what media it is satirizing, but it's not they can't yeah, uh-huh.

[1:48:38] Jimi: It's not being like, and then here will be an interesting plot turn.

[1:48:42] Tommy: They're orphans.

[1:48:43] Jimi: Well, it's probably just because there was probably a lot more orphans then.

[1:48:46] Tommy: That's probably true.

[1:48:47] Jimi: And it does. These days it is a a safer tragic plot device because it couldn't happen to you generally.

[1:48:56] Tommy: Right.

[1:48:57] Jimi: Right.

[1:48:57] Tommy: Um, and if it does, then it's fine because it's a hopeful story.

[1:49:01] Jimi: Right, and then you've got 25 Disney movies to watch that'll talk to you about it.

[1:49:05] Tommy: Absolutely.

[1:49:06] Jimi: Absolutely.

[1:49:07] Tommy: Um, but yeah, I just wanted to scold you.

[1:49:10] Jimi: That's I I I absolutely believe Oliver Twist deserves the credit for being the first.

[1:49:15] Tommy: And if you're writing something where your main child character is an orphan these days, you're being a lazy writer.

[1:49:25] Jimi: Yeah, exactly.

[1:49:26] Tommy: Or do it accurately.

[1:49:28] Jimi: Right.

[1:49:28] Tommy: And make it interesting.

[1:49:29] Jimi: Tell a good story.

[1:49:31] Tommy: Well, and it it it shouldn't be like there are so many other reasons to create interesting characters quickly.

[1:49:38] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:49:39] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:49:40] Jimi: Absolutely.

[1:49:40] Tommy: Don't pick the lazy one.

[1:49:42] Jimi: Fair play.

[1:49:43] Tommy: Also, really, like most of my tweets, I tweeted it because when I thought it, it made me laugh.

[1:49:49] Jimi: Very good.

[1:49:50] Tommy: It didn't make me laugh.

[1:49:51] Jimi: I was affronted.

[1:49:54] Tommy: I had to talk I had to talk Jimmy down and back into doing this podcast again.

[1:49:57] Jimi: Honestly, I was ready to I came with a letter of resignation because that's how it works.

[1:50:03] Tommy: Also, did you know I really love Annie?

[1:50:08] Jimi: Are you excited for that one eventually?

[1:50:11] Tommy: And do you know one of the main reasons why I really love Annie?

[1:50:15] Jimi: Is because it was it came after Oliver on Ivy Hest.

[1:50:18] Tommy: I should say I'm putting my persona on.

[1:50:20] Jimi: There are parts of Annie I very, very much enjoy.

[1:50:23] Tommy: I mean NYC.

[1:50:24] Jimi: Oh yeah.

[1:50:25] Tommy: Come on.

[1:50:26] Jimi: Easy Easy Street.

[1:50:28] Tommy: Easy street.

[1:50:29] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:50:29] Tommy: We like to thank you, Herbert Hoover.

[1:50:31] Jimi: I I love we like to thank you, Herbert.

[1:50:34] Tommy: Yay!

[1:50:37] Jimi: You know what I think I don't like?

[1:50:38] Tommy: And we'll get into this on the Annie pod on the Annie Podcast.

[1:50:40] Jimi: I don't like Daddy Warbucks.

[1:50:42] Tommy: Right, boring.

[1:50:43] Jimi: Boring.

[1:50:44] Tommy: And the skip skip those songs.

[1:50:46] Jimi: But like he's really pivotal to the plot.

[1:50:49] Tommy: I know.

[1:50:50] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:50:50] Tommy: No, okay.

[1:50:51] Jimi: I can't wait to talk about Annie now.

[1:50:53] Tommy: I've been dreading it for ages.

[1:50:54] Jimi: Let's do it next.

[1:50:55] Tommy: We won't be doing it next.

[1:50:57] Jimi: Just to let you know.

[1:51:06] Tommy: Can somebody change?

[1:51:08] Jimi: It's possible.

[1:51:11] Tommy: Maybe it's strange, but it's possible.

[1:51:16] Jimi: All my dearest companions and treasures.

[1:51:20] Tommy: I've left them behind.

[1:51:23] Jimi: I'll turn a leaf over.

[1:51:26] Tommy: And who can tell what I may find.

[1:51:55] Jimi: And that was Oliver.

[1:51:58] Tommy: Consider yourself my mate.

[1:52:02] Jimi: Oliver.

[1:52:03] Tommy: Oliver.

[1:52:04] Jimi: Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

[1:52:10] Tommy: And it just keeps going.

[1:52:11] Jimi: It does very much feel like, in case you didn't know, he's all liver.

[1:52:16] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:52:17] Jimi: Um also I never asked you what are your thoughts on peas pudding and saveloys.

[1:52:23] Tommy: What are peas puddings and saveloys?

[1:52:26] Jimi: Peas pudding.

[1:52:27] Tommy: Oh, I can't remember what peas pudding is.

[1:52:29] Jimi: I think it's like a stodgy, gruel-like thing.

[1:52:33] Tommy: Um and then Savoy's a type of sausage.

[1:52:36] Jimi: Got it.

[1:52:37] Tommy: Here's that.

[1:52:37] Jimi: Here's a little fun rhyme for you.

[1:52:39] Tommy: Uh-huh.

[1:52:40] Jimi: Um, it's a song. Hi, tiddly I tie, eat brown bread.

[1:52:44] Tommy: I saw a sausage fall down dead.

[1:52:47] Jimi: Up jump to Savaloy and bashed him on the head.

[1:52:50] Tommy: Hi, tiddly I tie, brown bread.

[1:52:54] Jimi: Oh man.

[1:52:55] Tommy: Was that the best moment of your life?

[1:52:57] Jimi: Uh I don't know if anything will ever top it.

[1:53:00] Tommy: Thank you.

[1:53:00] Jimi: Give me a quiz.

[1:53:01] Tommy: Oh no, I'm giving you the quiz question.

[1:53:03] Jimi: Here's a quiz question.

[1:53:04] Tommy: Okay.

[1:53:06] Jimi: This is a fun one.

[1:53:09] Tommy: This show has at least three things in common with Singin' in the Rain.

[1:53:18] Jimi: If you want to get in touch with us, uh the show Twitter and Instagram is at Jim and Tomic.

[1:53:22] Tommy: Or drop us an email on our website, Jim and Tomic.com.

[1:53:26] Jimi: Yes, indeed, um, where you will find that hey, we have merch now.

[1:53:30] Tommy: That's fun, right?

[1:53:31] Jimi: Um, feel free if you fancy wearing our logo around town, go grab yourself something.

[1:53:37] Tommy: Um also we have a Discord now, which is so fun, and we are getting uh great chat.

[1:53:44] Jimi: Yeah, shout out shout out to the Discord, y'all are lovely.

[1:53:46] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:53:47] Jimi: Whoop whoop.

[1:53:48] Tommy: Um, did we no, that was in my game tonight that I did the other night.

[1:53:52] Jimi: I was like that podcast.

[1:53:54] Tommy: Nope, it's not my world's are blurry.

[1:53:56] Jimi: Anyway, um, yes, the invite will be in the show notes so feel free to click it a click onto that.

[1:54:03] Tommy: But don't worry if you miss it because we will have more down the line.

[1:54:05] Jimi: Absolutely also while you're on our website feel free to check out our Patreon if you want to financially support the show.

[1:54:10] Tommy: And you can also find our last call uh it's our video podcast that's all different stuff that we talk about before the show we got really existential in this one you don't know what to expect on the last call Tommy but exactly hey the best way that you can support our show is by telling your friends all about it that is how we get our name out there is through you our lovely vehicles indeed we do and hey thanks for listening and cheers.

[1:54:10] Jimi: Cheers.

[1:54:10] Tommy: Hi tiddly eye tie brown bread.