This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Jimi: Hey, I want to make the announcement that we are 75% vaccinated podcast.

[0:04] Tommy: VAX!

[0:05] Jimi: Go get your vaccine, if you can, and you're able to.

[0:08] Tommy: Yeah, so are you guys allowed to just like rock up?

[0:11] Jimi: Uh it oh god, it's so messed up.

[0:13] Tommy: No, I would not be great.

[0:14] Jimi: No, of course not.

[0:15] Tommy: I love I love your naivete about how you think American government is handling the vaccine.

[0:18] Jimi: Oh, I was gonna say I would be surprised if that's how you could do it.

[0:21] Tommy: Well, somebody get us another drink!

[0:23] Jimi: Welcome to Jim and Tomic's Musical Theatre Happy Hour.

[0:26] Tommy: I am Jimi.

[0:27] Jimi: And I am Tommy, and this is the only musical theater podcast with stage door tears.

[0:32] Tommy: And tasty beers.

[0:34] Jimi: Here we take apart your favorite shows, muddle them together with a shot of the finery, and for you a refreshing glass of musical theatre conversation.

[0:43] Tommy: Hey, Mr. T, what are you drinking today?

[0:46] Jimi: Uh it's uh it's a flask of Stixian river water.

[0:52] Tommy: Did you like that?

[0:52] Jimi: Stixian?

[0:53] Tommy: I'm not sure.

[0:54] Jimi: Yes, probably pronounced Station, maybe, you know, something like that.

[0:57] Tommy: Like, what does an X do when it's X-I-A-N?

[1:00] Jimi: But Stixian's more fun to say.

[1:02] Tommy: Yeah, it definitely is.

[1:02] Jimi: It's got a lot of body to it, that water.

[1:05] Tommy: Alright?

[1:06] Jimi: That's quite good.

[1:08] Tommy: Read the read the read the quiz, please.

[1:10] Jimi: As far as we can tell, Meryl Streep's turn as the witch in the movie version of Sondheim's Into the Woods was her second role in one of Stevie Boy's shows.

[1:19] Tommy: What was the first?

[1:22] Jimi: The Frogs.

[1:25] Tommy: What was that?

[1:26] Jimi: Prikk!

[1:27] Tommy: Xantheus, wake up, Xanthius.

[1:30] Jimi: Old man, I need your help!

[1:33] Tommy: I may be losing my mind, but that sounds like like frogs.

[1:40] Jimi: Cool!

[1:41] Tommy: Rick!

[1:50] Jimi: It is, it is, it's frogs!

[1:52] Tommy: What do you think it is, mice?

[1:53] Jimi: Well done, we think spice!

[2:00] Tommy: Let's have skins, that's listen, let's have feet, that's pop!

[2:04] Jimi: Elephants!

[2:05] Tommy: No listen!

[2:08] Jimi: It's the frogs!

[2:09] Tommy: It's the frogs.

[2:11] Jimi: The adorable.

[2:14] Tommy: It was uh my my boyfriend asked, why is it called the frogs?

[2:16] Jimi: And I was like, well, that is a great question.

[2:19] Tommy: It is a great question.

[2:20] Jimi: Maybe like 10 minutes of the show.

[2:22] Tommy: Yeah, but I mean like even ask Aristophanes why is it called Frogs?

[2:24] Jimi: I think it's just because like, you know, he did the birds, he did uh another animal.

[2:29] Tommy: The snails.

[2:30] Jimi: The snails.

[2:31] Tommy: I can't remember.

[2:31] Jimi: I think he definitely did another animal.

[2:33] Tommy: That's the one called Peace.

[2:34] Jimi: Like the titles Aristotle's.

[2:36] Tommy: Um but yeah, they're only in like 10 minutes in the original, anyway.

[2:39] Jimi: Um did I ever tell you about my my lockdown ambition?

[2:42] Tommy: No.

[2:43] Jimi: I mean, I did, but you're good acting, or you've just forgotten.

[2:46] Tommy: Bad at remembering, what's the difference?

[2:47] Jimi: Yeah, exactly.

[2:48] Tommy: Um, so my plan right at the start of lockdown, when everyone was being like ambitious and creative.

[2:54] Jimi: Uh-huh.

[2:54] Tommy: Uh days.

[2:56] Jimi: Yeah, I was just like, zoom.

[2:59] Tommy: Was to do a one man rendition of The Frogs.

[3:04] Jimi: From like your bathtub or something?

[3:06] Tommy: Well, no, just like do all the parts and like maybe wear some interesting costumes.

[3:11] Jimi: Maybe choreography.

[3:13] Tommy: Maybe it's a bathtub.

[3:14] Jimi: There is still time.

[3:15] Tommy: There is still time.

[3:16] Jimi: Maybe this is what I'll do.

[3:17] Tommy: Maybe okay.

[3:17] Jimi: I'm not gonna do it.

[3:18] Tommy: I'm not gonna say that that's what I'm gonna do.

[3:20] Jimi: Um Tweet it, tweet at As and Hendrix, tell them you want to see it.

[3:24] Tommy: Bathroom production of The Frogs.

[3:26] Jimi: No, but just the song, not the full show.

[3:29] Tommy: Come back.

[3:30] Jimi: Don't be too ambitious.

[3:31] Tommy: Exactly, exactly.

[3:32] Jimi: Exactly.

[3:32] Tommy: But remember like remember that like into the woods guy that did that did like your fault, but it was just headed behind a sofa.

[3:39] Jimi: A spark of ambition.

[3:40] Tommy: Oh, was that that was before uh lockdown, right?

[3:43] Jimi: Oh, that was way before lockdown.

[3:45] Tommy: Yeah.

[3:45] Jimi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[3:46] Tommy: But I was inspired by him.

[3:47] Jimi: I could do that.

[3:48] Tommy: A pioneer of digital theater.

[3:50] Jimi: He really truly was, by the way.

[3:52] Tommy: Absolutely.

[3:53] Jimi: I mean, like those videos are still incredible.

[3:55] Tommy: It's true.

[3:55] Jimi: You go back and watch them, my god.

[3:57] Tommy: Anyway.

[3:58] Jimi: The Frogs.

[3:59] Tommy: Music and lyrics by Mr. Stephen Sondheim.

[4:00] Jimi: The one and only book by Bert Chevlov, uh, and more book by Nathan Lane in 2004.

[4:06] Tommy: Yes, indeed.

[4:07] Jimi: Um, so it crazily premiered at the Yale Repertory Theatre in 1974, which is a very long time ago.

[4:16] Tommy: Um, and uh it premiered in a pool of all places Olympic-sized swimming pool.

[4:21] Jimi: At the at Yale University, and then revived in 2004 uh with a new book or additional material by Nathan Lane, more songs by Sondheim, directed by Susan Strowman, a variety of other changes.

[4:31] Tommy: Indeed, oh um and okay, The Frogs.

[4:37] Jimi: I'm not gonna do it.

[4:38] Tommy: I believe in you, I believe in you.

[4:39] Jimi: This one's easy.

[4:40] Tommy: It's nothing happens.

[4:41] Jimi: I know.

[4:42] Tommy: Right, okay, so Dionysus uh is a Greek god.

[4:45] Jimi: Um god of wine and theater.

[4:47] Tommy: Yes, and his uh friendly slave Xantheus, um uh decide to journey into the underworld to try and uh bring back Mr. George Bernard Shaw, the playwright, um, in order for him to try and fix the world, which is uh engaged itself in moral torpor.

[5:08] Jimi: Uh and uh they yeah, they they journey into the underworld.

[5:12] Tommy: They on the way they meet Heracles, um, who gives them some advice uh because he's been there before and he killed Kerberis.

[5:19] Jimi: Um then they meet some frogs on the River Sticks to try and turn Nathan Lane into a frog.

[5:27] Tommy: Yes, I believe it's a metaphor of some form.

[5:30] Jimi: It's of some form, yeah.

[5:31] Tommy: Um, by the way, we will talk about that.

[5:34] Jimi: I'm excited.

[5:35] Tommy: It's a metaphor.

[5:35] Jimi: Um then you meet Hades who tells him that hell's actually not all that bad at all.

[5:39] Tommy: Um delightfully camp song.

[5:41] Jimi: Indeed.

[5:42] Tommy: Um, and then in true Greek theatre fashion, there is a debate uh between two incredible writers, George Bernershaw and Mr. William Shakespeare himself.

[5:49] Jimi: Um, and actually, in the end, Dionysus decides to bring Shakespeare back to save the world with his poetry.

[5:58] Tommy: Yeah.

[5:59] Jimi: You did it, well done.

[6:00] Tommy: That's probably the best I've ever done.

[6:01] Jimi: I think that's great.

[6:02] Tommy: Usually I'm I would subscribe to an audiobook if you're describing Greek comedies and tragedies.

[6:07] Jimi: Yeah, maybe it's just the Greek stuff I can do.

[6:10] Tommy: It's been distilled.

[6:12] Jimi: Speaking of Greece, shall we uh do a brief history?

[6:14] Tommy: I thought for some reason I thought we were gonna start talking about Greece, the music.

[6:19] Jimi: But also, like, do you know what's really sad?

[6:21] Tommy: I like kind of got excited.

[6:23] Jimi: That is very sad.

[6:23] Tommy: I'm sorry for you.

[6:24] Jimi: But no, let's talk about Greece, the country.

[6:27] Tommy: Well, no, the theatre.

[6:29] Jimi: I love to travel, don't you?

[6:34] Tommy: I love a change of pace, I love a change of space, I love to see a place that's absolutely new.

[6:40] Jimi: I love to travel of don't you live?

[6:42] Tommy: Of course you love the travel.

[6:48] Jimi: It's true.

[6:49] Tommy: I love the change of venue, a change of menu, the feeling when you meet with something strange.

[6:54] Jimi: I'll have to travel.

[6:58] Tommy: Change trip.

[7:01] Jimi: Are we there yet?

[7:02] Tommy: Because speaking of Greece, the country, have you ever been to Greece?

[7:04] Jimi: I've not been to Greece.

[7:05] Tommy: So do you want to share my fun Greece facts?

[7:07] Jimi: Yes.

[7:08] Tommy: So I've performed uh in a Greek amphitheater.

[7:12] Jimi: In fact, the biggest Greek amphitheatre at Epidavros.

[7:14] Tommy: Because of tech.

[7:15] Jimi: Thank you.

[7:16] Tommy: Um yes, I played um King Menelaus.

[7:21] Jimi: And who who we all know so well from that great production of Oh, it was it was uh devised piece.

[7:29] Tommy: Oh, okay.

[7:29] Jimi: Don't you worry.

[7:30] Tommy: No, this was in school.

[7:32] Jimi: Ah, that's very cool.

[7:34] Tommy: No, it's pagan.

[7:35] Jimi: It's deeply cool.

[7:36] Tommy: Um just learning about Greek theatre.

[7:38] Jimi: Um we went over over to Tolo in Greece.

[7:41] Tommy: Um and it was like like it's one of those things.

[7:44] Jimi: Like I spoke to Greek people about it since, and they're like, that's insane.

[7:48] Tommy: And I was like, it's insane, isn't it?

[7:50] Jimi: But I guess like people don't really appreciate it, but like it is like that is the original massive Greek amphitheater where you know this would have been performed.

[7:58] Tommy: I don't know if The Frogs is ever performed, they're probably not.

[8:00] Jimi: Um but uh yeah, it was really incredible.

[8:04] Tommy: Amphitheaters are cool.

[8:05] Jimi: There I I mean I love me a good outdoor theater.

[8:08] Tommy: There's just a different energy to it.

[8:09] Jimi: And you do all right, so uh The Frogs was originally performed in Athens in 405 BC, it's one of Aristophanes' Aristophanes, yes.

[8:15] Tommy: Uh I gotta see in theater history.

[8:17] Jimi: Always always remember that.

[8:19] Tommy: Um never forget.

[8:21] Jimi: Never forget.

[8:21] Tommy: Aristophanes, you Clitices, my Clitices, does anyone?

[8:25] Jimi: So it likes to talk about Greek litices, the best I plays.

[8:29] Tommy: Um but so uh, you know, ancient ancient comedy.

[8:33] Jimi: Um but no, I I love performing in a or you know, doing a show in a in a good old amphitheater.

[8:38] Tommy: You do feel, I don't know, connected to the history of theatre and whatever.

[8:43] Jimi: Absolutely.

[8:43] Tommy: And just like even just things like the acoustics.

[8:45] Jimi: Like we did the whole like we dropped a coin and you could hear it from the top.

[8:49] Tommy: Like, come on, that's incredible.

[8:51] Jimi: Um, so yeah, we're we're talking about Greek theatre.

[8:54] Tommy: I don't think we've ever really talked about Greek theater in the podcast.

[8:56] Jimi: I mean, wait, we musical theater is kind of such a distant cousin from our, you know, the founding fathers of Greek theater.

[9:01] Tommy: I uh asterisk next to that sentence, but um well, yeah, big Oscar is because also, not really.

[9:01] Jimi: Not really.

[9:08] Tommy: I mean, this is we've we've you know, uh had uh TMTMTM.

[9:11] Jimi: Stay tuned for more.

[9:12] Tommy: We'll get to it later.

[9:13] Jimi: But uh it is it is a travesty that uh academia focuses so greatly on ancient Greek theater and is definitely uh a hallmark of the uh like colonialism and westernization of the world.

[9:23] Tommy: Absolutely.

[9:24] Jimi: Like my uh my textbook that's literally sick over there about the introduction to Greek theater.

[9:28] Tommy: Um, you know, you certainly wouldn't get any mention of Greek theater in that one.

[9:31] Jimi: What tell me about like what is your uh relationship as a student of theater to learning about Greek theater, like in academic institutions?

[9:39] Tommy: Like, I mean, so like we the only we only did it uh in Epidaver's because we it was a school trip.

[9:46] Jimi: Right.

[9:47] Tommy: It was never a part of the curriculum.

[9:49] Jimi: Um the only reason I know anything about it is because I have an interest in theater and have studied it myself.

[9:54] Tommy: Um I never studied theater beyond high school, uh, so I'm you know, I'm sure if I studied it at university, it would be completely different.

[10:03] Jimi: But I did study classics.

[10:04] Tommy: Yeah, okay.

[10:06] Jimi: So we I probably learned more about Greek theater uh and Roman theater there than I did in theatre class.

[10:15] Tommy: Yeah, that tracks.

[10:16] Jimi: Um I mean it is Greek, I think Greek history and Greek theater, and like ancient Greek history caveat, is uh is a hallmark of the standard United States world history curriculum.

[10:27] Tommy: Um and then Greek theater as a result, like you know, we were supposed to.

[10:31] Jimi: I did not read a ton of ancient Greek texts um and contemporary adaptations in theater history class.

[10:36] Tommy: Um and you know, learn learn who the gods are, learn who the different characters are, and then of course the uh oh well now why can't I think of 'em?

[10:43] Jimi: The the unities of ancient Greek theatre, the unity of time, the unity of place, and the other one.

[10:47] Tommy: Um Isn't there a third one?

[10:50] Jimi: I there probably as real as three.

[10:52] Tommy: Yeah.

[10:52] Jimi: But it is like, God, I mean, this I spoiler alert, I have no patience for it.

[10:57] Tommy: Gosh, you couldn't tell.

[10:59] Jimi: I have no I have no patience for the study of ancient Greek theater.

[11:02] Tommy: Um I think it is like a lot of uh uh westernized like quote unquote classic literature, uh overhyped, seeped in racism and ulterior motives.

[11:11] Jimi: Um and and I think felt that early on also with a uh a healthy dose of just general adolescent apathy and don't give a shit mess.

[11:20] Tommy: Right.

[11:21] Jimi: What about um gosh, we're already in a tangent.

[11:24] Tommy: My goodness.

[11:25] Jimi: Um what about like the actual like artistry of the text though?

[11:31] Tommy: I mean, I I think that's okay, I was having this Remind me when we talk about Shakespeare, I want to tell you about Shakespeare.

[11:40] Jimi: Oh, I'm ha I'll happily shit on Shakespeare.

[11:43] Tommy: Like But I don't think Shakespeare's good in comparison to some uh Greek Greek or Roman writers.

[11:48] Jimi: Yeah, but I think like we only have these plays because they're the ones that survived, not because they're good.

[11:54] Tommy: They're necessarily the best, absolutely.

[11:55] Jimi: But like uh like one of my favorite pieces of text is the Aeneid.

[11:59] Tommy: Which are I appreciate is as romanced.

[12:01] Jimi: But uh it's just r it's like remarkable.

[12:05] Tommy: I adore it.

[12:06] Jimi: Um and I don't know, I mean uh maybe there is a bit of like nostalgia attached to that just because I really enjoyed studying classics.

[12:15] Tommy: Right.

[12:15] Jimi: I mean I feel I feel that way about Hamlet just because there's like a frequency effect that I had to study it so much that I like it.

[12:21] Tommy: But I think like just in terms of like it taught me so much about language and how you can use language as art.

[12:28] Jimi: Sure.

[12:28] Tommy: Like that like was a huge influence for me as a creator.

[12:33] Jimi: So I think like I I really appreciate it in that respect.

[12:37] Tommy: But as like the the paragon of theater, I would I would be like, well, no.

[12:44] Jimi: Right.

[12:44] Tommy: Well, and it is we it's such a conflated, terrible history.

[12:47] Jimi: Like, we don't talk about say ancient Sanskrit theater the same way we talk about ancient Grecian theater.

[12:53] Tommy: Right.

[12:53] Jimi: Um they're happening around the same time.

[12:54] Tommy: But your ancient Chinese theater, which is a century younger.

[12:58] Jimi: Um what is so strange, and like I've never seen this pro properly discussed in academic discourse and would welcome links to my Twitter or our email.

[13:04] Tommy: Um we can we call it ancient Greek theater.

[13:09] Jimi: Right.

[13:10] Tommy: We turn and we've compared it to that.

[13:12] Jimi: That is how like Western academia talks about this thing.

[13:14] Tommy: But ancient Greek theater is deeply deeply tied to ancient Greek theology and ancient Greek religion.

[13:21] Jimi: Yeah, absolutely.

[13:21] Tommy: Um but uh Western society has separated the two.

[13:25] Jimi: Um we don't afford that grace to other cultures.

[13:31] Tommy: We uh, you know, think of uh, you know, perhaps uh uh uh ancient African uh uh tribal religious expressions as you know bizarre or exotic or you know uh uh primitive um in a in a in a very very different way.

[13:47] Jimi: Yeah um right okay what we need to we need to pause this we gotta we gotta keep going because we gotta go to Yale Okay just spot I don't know how I I don't know whether don't because I've already segued we've already started this but I'm like, do I cut I can't cut this out?

[14:01] Tommy: So I think we'll just do a just you we'll just put that part and be like no no, no, no, we're gonna talk about that later.

[14:06] Jimi: Yes.

[14:06] Tommy: Let's talk about Yale.

[14:07] Jimi: Yes, let's talk about Yale.

[14:08] Tommy: Um because no, just as you start to talking about that, Cog started firing.

[14:13] Jimi: And I was like, we can't get into this now.

[14:15] Tommy: We can't, we can't get into this now.

[14:16] Jimi: We will get into it later.

[14:21] Tommy: Because we've yet to talk about The Frogs.

[14:23] Jimi: Right, exactly.

[14:24] Tommy: So flash forward thousands of years.

[14:27] Jimi: 1974.

[14:28] Tommy: Yes.

[14:29] Jimi: Um uh Yale rep uh and uh head of Yale Rep Repertory Theater, head of the theater department there, uh Robert Burst Burstein.

[14:36] Tommy: Let me try his name again.

[14:37] Jimi: Head of Yale Repertory Theater, Robert Burns.

[14:40] Tommy: I'll say head of Yale Repertory Theater, Robert Burstein.

[14:44] Jimi: Um he commissions base or uh reaches out to uh Bert Chevlov and says, Hey, you want to do that uh frogs production you did again?

[14:51] Jimi: Um and Sondheim owes Bert a favor because of some gala they did a couple years ago prior.

[14:56] Jimi: Uh and so they write this freely adapted version of the frogs as a musical, uh staged in the swimming pool at the gymnasium with hundreds of hundreds of people, um, or maybe singular hundreds uh in it.

[15:06] Jimi: Uh this is where a quiz question comes from comes from Meryl Streep, Christopher Durang.

[15:09] Jimi: There's someone else they always list in these.

[15:11] Jimi: Sigorni Weaver.

[15:12] Jimi: And I this is one of those this is why I hate pieces of trivia like this.

[15:15] Jimi: Meryl Streep wasn't in it as like, oh, that's Meryl Streep, right?

[15:19] Tommy: Right.

[15:20] Jimi: Was in it as a student at the Yale School of Drama.

[15:23] Jimi: And so it's such a weird like thing to check mark.

[15:26] Jimi: Like, no one know no one knows the frogs because Meryl Street is in it.

[15:29] Jimi: Meryl Streep is not famous because she was in the frogs, but like, well, like Meryl Streep probably has like some vague memories of doing a frogs that you need.

[15:35] Tommy: Right, right.

[15:36] Jimi: And that's that.

[15:36] Jimi: Like in the same way, I've got some vague memories about doing certain plays.

[15:39] Tommy: Do you know what I mean?

[15:40] Jimi: Exactly.

[15:40] Jimi: And it's so except but like every single article that you read that describes the frogs pulls out this line.

[15:45] Jimi: Starring Meryl Street.

[15:46] Jimi: Famous names you might recognize.

[15:48] Jimi: And also, there were literally a hundred people in this thing.

[15:50] Jimi: Like the whole the what what was it?

[15:51] Tommy: The Yale swim team?

[15:53] Jimi: The whole swim team was in it.

[15:54] Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

[15:55] Jimi: Um, and uh quite a fascinating, weird existence.

[15:59] Jimi: And like timeline wise, we're we're post uh funny thing happened on the way to the forum, which is kind of how Bert and Steve know each other.

[16:05] Tommy: Exactly.

[16:05] Jimi: Their most recent collab.

[16:07] Jimi: Um and we're still early on ish in some of the Sondheim uh timeline.

[16:12] Tommy: Yeah, I mean, but it's it's kinda comet a really interesting point in the Songtime Timeline because this is on the back of his like ascendance.

[16:20] Jimi: Right.

[16:21] Tommy: Yeah, well we just did um what was it?

[16:23] Tommy: We just had the Follies Company, what was the one before Follies?

[16:27] Jimi: Uh4 Company.

[16:28] Jimi: Uh uh anyone can whistle do a here while it's Primrose Company Follies Night Music than Frogs.

[16:33] Tommy: Night music, that's what it was.

[16:35] Jimi: Um so yeah, we're just at the ascendance of Stevie Sundheim here.

[16:39] Jimi: Um so like quite an interesting time to take uh U-turn and do uh weird you know non-Broadway production that's highly experimental as a favor.

[16:51] Tommy: And and certainly had Stephen Sondheim not been so like had such an early rise to fame, because he is good at what he does, absolutely this would be a footnote, right?

[17:01] Jimi: This would be uh uh uh a fun oddity of a famous uh musical theater composer had Sondheim not already been so successful.

[17:08] Tommy: Yeah.

[17:09] Jimi: Um and I do think you know, he alludes to this and we'll talk about it more.

[17:12] Jimi: Um, but in whichever hat book it is, um, that the fact that he was kind of famous already perhaps didn't serve him well in wanting to do this weird experimental thing in a swimming pool at uh college.

[17:23] Tommy: Yeah, absolutely.

[17:24] Jimi: And I think like a lot of people, you know, in in our days of PR that we live in now, this would never fly.

[17:29] Tommy: You know, I mean your agent would be like, you can't do this, this.

[17:31] Tommy: This is this is suicide.

[17:32] Jimi: Uh exactly.

[17:33] Jimi: For your career.

[17:33] Tommy: Like, kind of dove into it on a lark.

[17:36] Jimi: Then flash forward what, 30, 40 more years.

[17:38] Jimi: Um two the actually 2000, oh oh oh, uh uh Nathan Lane performed Bits of the Frogs, I believe is a uh charity concert.

[17:47] Tommy: Yeah, so it was in the uh Library of Congress um that did it.

[17:53] Jimi: Uh and they um commissioned a recording of it as well.

[17:56] Jimi: And it's the recording that has evening primrose on it.

[17:58] Tommy: Yes.

[18:00] Jimi: And it's now like the only recording of the original.

[18:03] Tommy: Right.

[18:04] Jimi: The un the unrevised version.

[18:06] Tommy: Although I did find allegedly on YouTube uh what purports to be a bootleg of the original Yale production.

[18:11] Jimi: I have nothing to confirm it other than it does indeed sound like it was recorded in an ad in an editorium.

[18:16] Tommy: Interesting.

[18:17] Tommy: Well, because the thing is is like there was another one um done.

[18:20] Tommy: Well, there was I think a few done in a swimming pool um of the original production, but there was one by the Pixas players in Chicago, um, which was also and I've seen video clips of that, so I wonder if it's that one that you've been seeing.

[18:32] Jimi: Although I did I listened really closely and I did hear Meryl Streep in the background.

[18:35] Tommy: Oh, did you hear like was she just kind of in the background going like careful the things you say, just practicing.

[18:40] Jimi: It was weirder, right?

[18:41] Jimi: You you just like the the orchestra ground to a halt and you just heard I'm Meryl Streep!

[18:45] Tommy: And then Segorda Weaver was like, I'm gonna play Ripley.

[18:48] Jimi: And then you and then you just hear the footsteps, and it sounds like Christopher Durang walking out of the room.

[18:52] Tommy: Yeah, I mean he has such a distinctive walk.

[18:54] Jimi: God, we're never gonna get to the bulk of this podcast.

[18:56] Jimi: 2004, Nathan Lane uh, after this uh uh off of doing it as a uh uh charity concert, um, and perhaps spurred by some uh 9-11 uh artistic uh impulses uh pokes Steve and asks if he can revise it and bring it to Broadway with Susan Strowman, and that's 2004 production.

[19:12] Tommy: And if you listen to the album with an urn and a frog on the front, that's what you're listening to.

[19:16] Jimi: Yes, indeed.

[19:16] Jimi: And I think that's the one that most people know.

[19:19] Tommy: I imagine that's the same thing.

[19:20] Tommy: Or certainly commercially no.

[19:21] Jimi: I think that the like Sondy fans seem to prefer the evening primrose one because it's like more pure.

[19:28] Jimi: I mean, I find the you know, the frogs.

[19:31] Jimi: Sorry out to whoever this is out there, but generally speaking, the frogs is no one's favorite Steven Sondheim musical.

[19:36] Tommy: Well, you're apologizing to me here.

[19:37] Tommy: It's not it's not right, it's not in the top list, but it's in my top five.

[19:40] Jimi: I love a ton of songs from it.

[19:42] Tommy: It's in your top five.

[19:43] Jimi: It's in my top five Sonnies, absolutely.

[19:45] Jimi: Um for you know, reasons we'll discuss that we're not discussing anything in this episode.

[19:49] Tommy: I know, we're just gonna what if it would have the episode start at stop right now?

[19:52] Jimi: Exactly.

[19:52] Jimi: Thanks, guys.

[19:53] Jimi: That was our best one yet.

[19:54] Tommy: Um no, yeah, I I I really, really um appreciate it uh deeply uh on on many many levels.

[20:03] Tommy: Um and for for many different reasons.

[20:05] Jimi: But yeah, I think like in terms of like the Sondheim canon um and the origins of his other shows, I think this one is just really fascinating.

[20:14] Jimi: Like because it shows that like this just proves that Sondheim is like artist first, commercial boy second.

[20:22] Jimi: Like the fact that he would take the title.

[20:23] Jimi: I mean, it wasn't a long time, he didn't spend a long time on it, it was a really short-lived affair.

[20:27] Jimi: Um but the fact that he would take a U-turn and do this as a favor um to his friend.

[20:34] Jimi: You can hear him experimenting with what would become what we now know is like a very traditional Songtime style.

[20:40] Tommy: Absolutely.

[20:41] Jimi: And like exploring his where where his early stuff has kind of a uh it re I think it really swings back and forth between like commercially viable and like deeply Stephen Sondheim.

[20:50] Tommy: Yeah.

[20:50] Jimi: Um it doesn't often blend as well between those two.

[20:52] Jimi: And you can see him really poking in like wildly different directions with the frogs to to prep to find ways to then hone it back in into something that becomes Sweeney Todd and Into the Woods and all of these tight, commercially viable but also experimental and uh sonically interesting pieces.

[21:07] Tommy: Um but I think like this is and I don't know whether it's because this was an experimental turn, but I actually think from a kind of conceptual standpoint, this is probably one of his like deepest shows.

[21:27] Tommy: Yeah, tell me more.

[21:29] Jimi: So I wanted to I don't want to tell you more yet.

[21:33] Tommy: Okay, let's talk about the 2004 production.

[21:38] Jimi: No delay, long as you're DOA.

[21:45] Jimi: If you fall off the perch, if you buy the farm, kick the bucket, bite the dust.

[21:50] Jimi: If you're pushing up daisies, truck on down.

[21:53] Jimi: And when I say down, I mean down.

[21:58] Tommy: All aboard.

[22:01] Jimi: Get your kicks on the river sticks.

[22:04] Tommy: That's what you wanted to talk about for half an hour.

[22:06] Jimi: Nobody knows.

[22:07] Jimi: Um right, okay.

[22:08] Jimi: Yes, this is a good place to start.

[22:10] Jimi: Um and I think the best place to start is to work out what's different.

[22:14] Tommy: Yes.

[22:15] Jimi: So the the 2000, the original production was maybe an hour long, and they needed to flesh it out to be a little bit more.

[22:20] Tommy: Yeah, I think like an hour and a half um it, yeah.

[22:22] Jimi: Uh at no interval, you know.

[22:25] Jimi: Um, and it was uh I think like six or something songs, um that sometimes had written based around the structure of a Greek comedy, uh right, where you have these like set moments um that you would expect, uh whether it was like addresses to the audiences or debates um or honours to the gods, things like that, he uh wrote songs based on that structure, which makes a lot of sense and very you know yes, very sondy.

[22:50] Tommy: Um but yeah, so for the 2004 though, he added in um a number of songs and adapted songs uh yeah from his original, um, which is interesting because this is effectively like our newest Sondheim content that we've got yeah and it is I would wager okay here's here's a take I've gotten from how Sondheim seems to talk about this I don't know how involved Sondheim was with the 2004 production or rather I'll rephrase it as a statement I think he was less involved than he is with some of the other productions he's worked on.

[23:19] Tommy: Like it seemed very much that he and Nathan Lane sat down and Nathan was like hey we need a couple songs here and there and they met for a little bit and then Sondheim left the city.

[23:28] Jimi: Well because I think I I can imagine that that is probably yeah that probably is the case because Sondheim uh when he spoke to Nathan Lane about doing the 2004 um he did it because Nathan Lane wrote some really interesting bits for the Library of Congress thing that was m that were more contemporary illusions um and you know in very like Nathan Lane style quits um and so yeah when they had that discussion I can imagine Sondheim was like you've got something here right go with it and I'll help you rather than I I have this idea you've inspired me right here you know I mean here it is because I think like the core hasn't changed.

[24:10] Jimi: Nathan Lane has built upon it massively um and Sondheim has definitely like just buffered that to make it a Broadway scale musical.

[24:21] Tommy: For sure.

[24:21] Tommy: Would you say that's pretty fair?

[24:23] Jimi: Yeah I think so.

[24:24] Jimi: I think I think the thing I'm reacting to is you could even if we didn't name the songs that were added if you have an ear for 1970s Sondheim style musical theater and 2004 appealing, like you know, publicly appealing musical theater sound, you could probably sort the songs into two buckets.

[24:43] Tommy: Yeah.

[24:43] Jimi: Um running through the thing.

[24:45] Jimi: Which is not how other songtime works kind of feel.

[24:50] Jimi: They feel more integrated than that.

[24:52] Jimi: Or when there is a new song written or something new added, it does seem to fit more seamlessly in.

[24:56] Jimi: Whereas this does feel to me at least a little bit more like a like you folded two phone books together.

[25:01] Tommy: Uh-huh.

[25:02] Tommy: Uh-huh.

[25:02] Jimi: Because I think like the only other example that kind of rings off the top of my head of something that's that has as much time in between it is um like with Assassins when he wrote something just broke.

[25:13] Tommy: Sure.

[25:14] Tommy: Yeah, metal production.

[25:15] Jimi: That's a good comparison, yeah.

[25:16] Jimi: You know, I mean, as in very much like I need to update as in here is that, you know, I've got skills now to watch me deploy them, and it's like, oh wow, this is an incredible sensational song that's changed the whole production.

[25:24] Tommy: You know, I mean, like that, that kind of thing.

[25:26] Jimi: But in a in a different way here, it's kind of on the flip side, like the original content I think was so solid.

[25:31] Jimi: Um that the new stuff is it is a bit filler.

[25:35] Tommy: Yeah, it does feel like that.

[25:36] Jimi: Because it feels like they have the song spot in the musical that already was done.

[25:39] Tommy: Um which is a weird, a weird writing exercise, right?

[25:43] Jimi: How do you build up on that?

[25:45] Jimi: But I think like it's it's interesting because obviously the original um the original production was obviously very heavily based on the play and still picked up on a lot of the same points.

[25:54] Jimi: Um you know, like a key part of the original frogs is when they go to meet Heracles.

[25:59] Tommy: Um there just wasn't a number there.

[26:01] Jimi: So I was like, well, so now they make a number of things.

[26:03] Tommy: Here's a beat, so I'm gonna make a number.

[26:05] Jimi: Same with On the River Sticks and Hades, yeah.

[26:07] Tommy: That's a good point.

[26:08] Jimi: Um the only one that really sticks out though is Ariadne.

[26:11] Tommy: Yeah.

[26:12] Jimi: How do you feel about Ariadne?

[26:13] Tommy: I think it's a lovely song.

[26:15] Jimi: Yeah.

[26:17] Jimi: Well done, Steven.

[26:19] Jimi: Like, but I don't think it I I don't think it's important, and I think it's it it really just detracts from yeah everything.

[26:27] Tommy: There it was interesting, there there are a couple places, you know, everyone wants to cut apart Sondheim's works in you know a thousand ways of Sundays, us included.

[26:34] Jimi: Yeah, and I I page through a couple articles about you know the queer world of Steven Sondheim.

[26:40] Tommy: Right, uh-huh.

[26:41] Jimi: And like this one between uh uh Dionysus and what's his name?

[26:46] Tommy: All I can think of Xantheus.

[26:47] Jimi: Xanthius, all I could think of was Xanathar, the blue beholder from Dungeons and Dragons.

[26:53] Tommy: Um like have a you know, could what could be described as a queer relationship in the thing.

[26:59] Tommy: It's very camp anyway, right?

[27:00] Jimi: Um you know, and so it is interesting to me that like I wonder how that conversation went about like, oh well, we have to have a love song.

[27:07] Jimi: We must include a heteronormative love song for the main character to have because it's a musical on Broadway in 2004.

[27:13] Tommy: We never we never meet Dionysus's love interest, we never meet Ariadne.

[27:18] Jimi: She's not a character in the show.

[27:19] Tommy: Well, you do kind of meet her.

[27:21] Jimi: Do you?

[27:22] Tommy: Yeah, she appears on Hades.

[27:25] Jimi: I know, I'm sorry.

[27:26] Jimi: That makes um frustrated about that.

[27:30] Tommy: But no, let me help you with your point because it you are I think I still think you're right.

[27:34] Tommy: Um on the like kind of heteronormative thing, right?

[27:37] Jimi: But I don't think it's from a perspective of we need this to appeal to audiences because they they need a love story.

[27:42] Tommy: I don't think it's that.

[27:43] Jimi: Um what I think it is is we're seeing new Sondheim.

[27:47] Tommy: Sure.

[27:48] Jimi: Because we talked about this in the passion episode that passion is so distinctly different from every single other thing he's done.

[27:53] Jimi: And I kind of posited a theory in that episode that um it's because he went through it in terms of himself and his own sexuality and appreciating because everything else up to that point is so repressed and tortured um or unfortunate when it comes to love.

[28:08] Tommy: There's no love.

[28:09] Jimi: There's no no love, yeah.

[28:10] Jimi: Right.

[28:11] Tommy: Uh and then passion comes along, and it's still tortured, but it's more there's more love than we've ever seen before.

[28:16] Jimi: Um and then I guess still still the way it talks she's not like um but um it's still a beautiful positive old love song.

[28:25] Jimi: Um and I think it I think it's just a case of somehow it unlocked this within him now and was able to write these songs that were just and it is a really beautiful song.

[28:36] Tommy: Um but I do think it's completely uh not inappropriate but it it doesn't it doesn't serve anything.

[28:43] Jimi: You know, these characters don't require debt, right?

[28:46] Tommy: Exactly.

[28:46] Tommy: They don't require fleshing out because that isn't the point of the show.

[28:50] Jimi: Right.

[28:50] Tommy: Well what what is I mean I'll put it point blank, what is the point of the show?

[28:55] Jimi: Well I want to talk about that later put it put it put it in the bucket.

[28:59] Tommy: I will say this is a big old bucket that we got.

[29:02] Jimi: I know.

[29:03] Jimi: Wait for wait for the Snyder cut of this episode.

[29:05] Tommy: Yeah exactly.

[29:06] Jimi: Oh my god brilliant it will be presented in 4-3 based on our initial vision.

[29:12] Tommy: Yeah yeah um oh I also I really want to talk about Susan Strowman um obviously director choreographer.

[29:17] Jimi: We we know in love you know where would it be without um but one thing she's really good at is a dance break.

[29:25] Tommy: Yeah and one thing I think you could argue that the frogs doesn't need is three dance breaks.

[29:31] Tommy: Oh my god, they're so you can find clips of them online from some publicity materials and stuff. And they are, they are like technically they're great, they're great. How fun, right? How fun. And entirely unnecessary. Totally unnecessary. And like it's just adding padding to a show that really doesn't need it. Like it's adding padding to a show that really needs to be succinct and biting and delivering something as opposed to taking you on a journey. Um, and you can tell that Susan Stroman is all about taking you on a journey. Um, and I think it is to the detriment of that 2004 production. And I really, I really would love to see what it would have been like with a different director at the helm because I don't doubt that Susan Stroman would have also had influence in the discussions with Stevie when it came to like listen, we need a number here, or this needs to be a dance. This, you know, I mean, yeah. I don't think Stephen Sondheim would ever have written the song "Shaw in His Puff" unless he was asked to do it. Because that song is pointless.

[30:32] Jimi: Exactly.

[30:33] Tommy: Well, I do, and I, you know, you know me, I don't like to speak ill of artists.

[30:38] Jimi: You never have, and I think it's amazing how you held that in all this time.

[30:42] Tommy: It is a thing I thought about Susan Stroman's work before, which I adore. I love The Producers, right? And we've, you know, raved on about Scottsboro Boys, and I think her choreography shines in stuff that has a like pseudo-performance underpinning to it, right?

[30:57] Jimi: Right.

[30:57] Tommy: Her stuff in The Producers does well because the thing is a send-up of movie musicals and the musical theater world and like all this stuff. The Scottsboro Boys is like a deep, you know, biting satire of a, you know, minstrel show. Yeah. Um, The Frogs, despite it like portraying itself as a play, right? Like it has a lot of self-meta commentary about being a play, doesn't really portray itself as a musical, not in that same kind of meta-commentary outward way.

[31:24] Jimi: Exactly.

[31:25] Tommy: And her choreography just does. Yeah, um, it's just trying to be spectacle, and we don't need it, we really don't need it. And I like, I really don't doubt that that's a big part of why the 2004 wasn't as successful. Um, I think there are other reasons as to why. Um, one of those being, um, and I think there's an interesting parallel here with Anyone Can Whistle in particular. Um, one of the kind of, uh, the hot topic about why Anyone Can Whistle didn't work, um, is because of how it spoke to its audience. Um, we spoke about this quite a lot in that episode, so if we go back and listen to that. Um, but basically the audience didn't like being treated harshly. Um, the ending of the 2004 Frogs, um, basically the kind of, it comes as a sort of, uh, Brechtian style send-up, like very much like the opera ending of, you know, y'all need to do better, the end.

[32:23] Jimi: Yeah, and it's like, it's one of those things. There's a time and a place, there's an absolute time and a place, but that time and a place isn't when you've had frogs leaping up on bungee cords. And it doesn't just do the Brechtian ending, it does both, right? It tries to do the like, and here's what we've learned at the end, and hey audience, don't you know you be better. Yada da da da da and then like goes into this big flashy end of that song, right? Changes to a major key, the chorus comes back on stage, and you know, confetti cannons happen. And it's, it's so pick one.

[32:58] Tommy: It is a bit, yeah, it is a bit like that. Like I think, I mean, I to be honest, I don't think Broadway can handle that kind of message. I just don't think it can anyway. I don't think, I don't think 2004 Broadway could handle that. I, I don't even know about nowadays, Loty, because like it not, not the Broadway audience as we know and love it. Um, I mean, not the, uh, I think deeply caveated, not the musical theatre audience. There's, I mean, you should read some of the audience reactions to stuff.

[33:22] Jimi: Oh, to like Sleepplay.

[33:23] Tommy: So yeah, no, absolutely, the musical theatre Broadway audience, yes. Um, I just don't think want that. They just don't think that that is what, you know, that is not what a musical should be. Um, as we have talked about hotly.

[33:34] Jimi: Well, that's, that's, that's not what people went to, uh, Susan Stroman headlined Nathan Lane Roger Bart musical to see. Which like, and, and is such, I always feel bad for Nathan Lane in these discussions. I watched in preparation for this, right? Um, and I was disappointed by the interview because he doesn't mention it all, but, uh, he was on Stephen Colbert when, uh, Nathan Lane was recently in, is it called George?

[33:53] Tommy: Oh yes, uh, uh, something like that.

[33:55] Jimi: Man's name sequel to Titus Andronicus.

[33:58] Tommy: Yes.

[33:59] Jimi: Um, hold on.

[34:00] Tommy: Gary.

[34:01] Jimi: Yeah, uh, Gary, a sequel to Titus Andronicus, which I've had some friends who have seen it and gave it very, very poor reviews. Um, it does, I love Nathan Lane, and he has this comedic dramatic event that like is so well featured in like The Birdcage and some of his early work, uh, in straight plays on Broadway and stuff, and unfortunately has landed, you know, post being, uh, uh, Timon in The Lion King, right? This kind of funny guy attitude, uh, where he doesn't get to do the comedic dramatic stuff that he wants to do.

[34:29] Tommy: Yeah, and I think The Frogs is an unfortunate showcase of that.

[34:34] Jimi: Well, I think it could be, or I think it was, but I don't think it had to be. It does suffice it to say, it does feel like a show that's trying really hard to figure out what it is. Um, or like there's a lot of voices happening in it.

[34:49] Tommy: In 2004, yeah.

[34:50] Jimi: I think it probably made a lot more sense in 1974.

[34:53] Tommy: Yes, I agree. Well, and part of this is, you know, and, uh, uh, like Nathan Lane has come out, right, and say it, like this is a very direct, uh, Bush era America post 9/11 reactionary play.

[35:05] Jimi: Yeah.

[35:06] Tommy: Um, you know, uh, it is interesting because, and this is a thing that frustrates me about a lot of, a lot of political commentary media of the time. Um, whenever, whenever someone uses some kind of phrase that's like, well, you know, the world out there, um, or like really general aphorisms about, you know, the state of the world today, but they don't tell you what the state of the world today is. Whether it's Athens or America, I don't care, but like we can be a little more specific than that. Um, and you can tell in the 2004 version, these are a lot of Nathan Lane's additions. Um, and it is a, it is a commentary, it is like an anti-war commentary, which is very appropriate. The Frogs, the OG, you know, 400 BC one was written during a time of war in Athens and is a reaction to that, and so there's a lot of literary illusion going on there.

Um, but it is, you know, I find it fascinating. The whole crux of the thing is that, uh, uh, Dionysus is going to find Shaw and pick Shakespeare instead, and they're pitted against each other as like Shaw the playwright of cynicism and social commentary, and Shakespeare the playwright of, uh, metaphor and heart and ideology and poetry.

[36:12] Jimi: Um, and it would seem the moral of the play is pick Shakespeare because the world needs heart, and yet here is Nathan Lane doing a like, we need a 9/11 play.

[36:22] Tommy: Right, okay, we need to talk about it right there.

[37:05] Jimi: To exalt your name in the sacred rites, which begins at five and goes on night.

[37:25] Tommy: The reason why I really appreciate this piece is because I think it's, it could be his most intelligent work.

[37:39] Jimi: Like Sondheim?

[37:40] Tommy: Yeah. Um, it's definitely up, like definitely top five. Um, and I think the things that he's trying to discuss are just really difficult things to discuss.

[37:52] Jimi: Like, um, because to me what I think he's trying to discuss is the nature and importance of art. Obviously, you know, we have Sunday in the Park with George, which is a lot of that too.

[38:08] Tommy: But not in such a theoretical scale.

[38:13] Jimi: Do you know what I mean? And a much more like art is important to me. That's what Sunday in the Park with George is more about. Whereas this is like how art, like why we have art.

[38:22] Tommy: Sure.

[38:22] Jimi: Yeah. Um, in the same way that this is what Aristophanes was discussing. Right, was trying to get at me.

[38:28] Tommy: I think I, I, I agree with you on points. I, uh, and I think this is a difference we have in our aesthetic. Um, I much prefer pieces where the message is buried, where there, like I think there's power in Sunday in the Park being entertaining if you don't get it.

[38:49] Jimi: Right.

[38:49] Tommy: Whereas I think The Frogs is very nail on the head.

[38:54] Jimi: But I think there's so much depth within, but I think, uh, well, I think there's depth, but I think it's also quite apparent. Like you can't, especially nowadays, right? I would challenge people to sit through It's Only a Play and not feel uncomfortable about their place in the world.

[39:10] Tommy: Don't get me wrong, It's Only a Play. One of the most powerful songs in musical theatre.

[39:13] Jimi: Phil stop.

[39:14] Tommy: Yeah.

[39:15] Jimi: Right.

[39:15] Tommy: Absolutely.

[39:16] Jimi: And it required listening for anyone in the dramatic profession.

[39:19] Tommy: Absolutely.

[39:20] Jimi: Um, and it's bolstered with the song The Frogs, um, as well. Like, you know, I feel like It's Only a Play wouldn't have, it wouldn't land as hard, um, if we didn't have The Frogs prefacing it, where you have this really like brash, obvious apathy song.

[39:36] Tommy: Yeah.

[39:36] Jimi: You know what I mean? That's like, ah, come on, it's much better. La dida fiddle d come and join us. It's great down here. Um, and then you have literally this, it's just, I could talk about like just an incredibly simple song um that is written exquisitely because, and it goes back to what you're saying before, because it is only written in cliché.

[40:01] Tommy: Right.

[40:01] Jimi: Like the only words written in that song are clichés. Don't bother, relax. It's only a play. Everything's delivered in a way where it's impossible to misinterpret, right? Delivered in a way where you get it without it being, I absolutely agree on that point. I think, I think the thing I struggle with is I think It's Only a Play one should have been the reprise at the end of the show.

[40:21] Tommy: Don't reprise, please don't cough, reprise It's Only a Play.

[40:23] Jimi: I don't know, or something. But it's, it's so like it lands harder because that's its moment. Do you know what I mean? In the same way that like, in the same way that something just broke is the mess is the point of Assassins, is because of where it is. You don't care about Everybody's Got the Right to Be Happy. All you're thinking about is something just broke.

[40:42] Tommy: Um, and it changes how you view everything else in the same way that It's Only a Play. And then you read because then like after that you realize the complete futility of what, um, uh, Dionysus is doing. Do you know what I mean? It's like it doesn't matter who you pick, that isn't going to change anything, whether it's the love guy or whether it's the harsh guy. It, it doesn't, you can have the hope.

[41:02] Jimi: But do you think that's the moral that it doesn't matter who he picks, that it's like this nihilistic futile effort?

[41:08] Tommy: I think so. I don't think Sondheim thinks that Shakespeare can change the world.

[41:11] Jimi: Yeah.

[41:11] Tommy: I don't, if I think if that's true, it's not communicated in this show.

[41:16] Jimi: I don't think it's communicated in that production, but I think like it's because that's the, that's the reading I took of it. So therefore given another go at it, we might end up with a show.

[41:28] Tommy: Right.

[41:28] Jimi: That doesn't, and listen, I'm not, I'm not an expert on the original The Frogs. Um, but, uh, I think just the whole idea of here's someone going in with such an intent to, you know, like I am going to get Shaw or I'm going to get Euripides and bring him back because he's going to fix everything, and I know that that's gonna work. For them to change their mind at the last minute, right, shows that there's no, there's no right or wrong answer here.

[41:52] Tommy: I think the two things that I'm struggling with. The first is we've talked about like consistent magic rules in universes, right? Um, I think I talk about this in various occasions. Um, but like whatever, however magic works in your world, you, it's gotta stay the same. This in a, in a similar vein has very inconsistent, uh, metatextual rules.

[42:11] Jimi: Um, the like they start by saying, what play should we do tonight?

[42:16] Tommy: Right.

[42:17] Jimi: And the thesis of the show, as you stated, is it's only a play. But we're also playing with the setting is ancient or the setting is now, the time is ancient Greece, or whatever it is, vice versa.

[42:26] Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[42:26] Jimi: And we meet, um, oh, what's the word? Uh, when it doesn't match the time period it's in.

[42:30] Tommy: Anachronism.

[42:34] Jimi: Uh, we meet anachronistic playwrights in this world.

[42:38] Tommy: Yeah.

[42:39] Jimi: Like it doesn't, and then we don't end quite well, then we do end with like some reminders to the audience. It doesn't do a good job of in-world, out-world metatextuality. It's very muddy on its distinctions there for a show whose main thesis is it's only a play.

[43:01] Tommy: But I think that's the, I actually think that's the point. I think that's the intention.

[43:03] Jimi: And I think even with the 2004 rewrites, like, so this is something that I don't know much about, um, but it's something that I have been researching whilst researching this, um, is the concept of intertextuality and how that's significant in literature. Do you know what I mean? And how it's used and it's basically just referencing, you know, yeah, whether it's subconscious or whether it is purposeful, um, and the different ways in which you can do that.

[43:24] Tommy: Um, obviously within this, there's many, many layers of intertextuality is based on a piece of text.

[43:30] Jimi: Um, the, uh, obviously you've got Shakespeare, he sings a song from Shakespeare.

[43:34] Tommy: Like there are these really obvious things.

[43:35] Jimi: They quote, you know, in the 2004 version, we talk about The Lion King, and we talk about, uh, yeah, yeah, exactly. So there's, there's all of these different layers. Um, but then there is also the intertextuality of the song, um, It's Only a Play, where they are repeating these vague, pointless aphorisms um that create this kind of heady disillusionment.

[44:01] Tommy: Yeah.

[44:02] Jimi: Right. And I think it's all setting up for that point. It is supposed to be muddy and it is supposed to be pointless because it's, I think it's to make you realize that it's, it's only a play.

[44:14] Jimi: Like that it's you know you need to I'm trying to like force my point.

[44:23] Tommy: No, I I I see your thread.

[44:26] Jimi: Like I I I I I see there is by by keeping it, I don't want to use the word sloppy, I don't mean the word sloppy, but like by by keeping it muddy in ways like that, it's proving there's no authenticity.

[44:38] Tommy: Yeah.

[44:38] Jimi: Right. And I think that is intentional, like I don't think it's uh yeah, I just think that's exactly what they're intending to do is to layer it with all of this irony and layer it with all of this, you know, these references, and because we talk about it like we talk about it in conjunction with theatre today, right? And that you know, we're seeing more and more musicals that parry the other musicals, and every now and then, you know, I mean, and it it gets really exhausting.

[45:02] Tommy: Yeah, absolutely because you're like, Oh, where's the art now?

[45:05] Jimi: Like, where is where's the thing that's gonna change something, right? Because everything is just looking back and everything is just referencing everything else.

[45:11] Tommy: And it goes out into just general social media, like everything is a reference. The way that people talk nowadays, you know, especially like the gay community, we speak a la drag race, you know. I mean, we don't we don't have normal linguistics anymore, right? And I think that that is what this is setting up, is that it's it's showing you this world that Dionysus wants to break out from.

[45:34] Jimi: Um and how he is doing it is by bringing back someone from the past. Right. It doesn't matter who it is, whether it was Jared Rosh, whether it was Ebsen, you know what I mean? Um, I think sometime talks about it in the book whether you know it would be an interesting argument to see um was it Hemingway and uh Oh no, it wasn't, it was um Arthur Miller and the other one.

[45:55] Tommy: Tennessee Williams.

[45:58] Jimi: I think that's who you talk uh it might not, it doesn't matter. Um but yeah, it could it could be anyone that he brings back, and it wouldn't matter because it's old news.

[46:07] Tommy: Yeah.

[46:07] Jimi: I think that's the point. That's the reason that I've taken of it. Uh I I think it's I I think it's I I could see a version of the frogs that would do that for me.

[46:17] Tommy: Yeah.

[46:18] Jimi: What I struggle with is like then Susan Strowman takes twenty-five minutes to do these stupid dance numbers in this.

[46:22] Tommy: Absolutely, absolutely.

[46:24] Jimi: And uh, even more so, like Nathan Lane, you know, the the your your point is well supported by the song The Frogs, where you know they want you to be complacent, they want you to, you know, sit with the stance quo, all that stuff, and dare to break out, dare to be the change you want to see in the world. And yet, very clearly Nathan Lane is writing this play that he states is like an anti-war protest about George Bush era 9-11 politics.

[46:46] Tommy: I d but he's not saying it's a protest.

[46:48] Jimi: Well, he's but it's a commentary, it's in sp is religious. It's inspired by he he wanted to write, he wanted to do this because that was happening. And there's he's not it's you know, I what I said earlier, like it's just filled with even from even from Dionysus' lines, it's filled with these generic aphorisms about the world out there today or politicians today, and takes no biting side on on either side of the things he's trying to comment on.

[47:13] Tommy: But I think that's the point.

[47:15] Jimi: That's a stupid point.

[47:16] Tommy: Maybe that's my reaction.

[47:17] Jimi: But that is like that's just it's just buffering this idea of like the same thing that it's all your plays talking about. You're you're saying his point is that art is pointless.

[47:26] Tommy: No.

[47:27] Jimi: By saying it doesn't matter what artist he brings back.

[47:31] Tommy: No, it's not that. It's that we need new art, we need new voices. That if you want to see a change, you need to change something. And he brings back this play with vague commentary and stupid dance numbers, right? Like he he fails in the art he tries to bring back.

[47:46] Jimi: I think.

[47:47] Tommy: Yeah, I'm not no, I'm not I'm not trying to argue that the 2004 one is perfect, but I think there's I think there is stuff in it um that is really good.

[47:55] Jimi: But I think the original 1974 one was closer to being perfect. You know what I mean?

[47:58] Tommy: Um fair I think But the like the original 1974 one wasn't a protest against war.

[48:05] Jimi: Like No, the original 1974 was written after Watergate. Like I don't doubt that Bart Steve Love and sometime were working together to create something like you can't write it's only a play if the world is really great. Do you know what I mean?

[48:17] Tommy: Like it it's I think I think it's only a play is just for the new one.

[48:21] Jimi: No, it was 1974.

[48:23] Tommy: Okay, never mind.

[48:24] Jimi: Um like it I just and I think I think that's why he chose to adapt the frogs. Do you know what I mean? Because it's when you've got a really really tricky design, like this is a great way of therapy, you know, of therapizing it and to try and uh work out this this kind of nebulous idea of like, well, how do we fix it? I don't know, but we need to do something.

[48:28] Tommy: Sure.

[48:28] Jimi: You know what I mean? Um I think that's what the show really intelligent, like much more intelligent than I can articulate. Um that's what it talks about.

[48:55] Tommy: Um and just to talk a bit about Nathan Lane, I I actually think in an alternate universe, he is the perfect person to deliver this show.

[49:02] Jimi: Um because he is a clown. Right?

[49:05] Tommy: And if we go back to, I know we've already kind of decried theatre tradition, but if you go back to the theatre tradition of a clown, um, there's no one better to show you the world as it is and to show you a mirror of yourself than a clown.

[49:17] Jimi: Um yeah. I mean, if you if you read any uh and he doesn't do a lot, but like deep analysis or like interviews with Nathan Lane that aren't about a particular show.

[49:24] Tommy: Like he is Paliacci, like he is the tragic clown in in some of the most depressing ways you can ever imagine.

[49:32] Jimi: Absolutely.

[49:32] Tommy: And I think like there is a world where a clown leads this show, you know what I mean?

[49:36] Jimi: And I think you just need to take Cesar Strowman out of the equation.

[49:40] Tommy: I know, I know, it's such a shame.

[49:41] Jimi: You could probably step closer to it.

[49:43] Tommy: Um, but nobody would have come to see it if Susan Susan wasn't at the helm, you know.

[49:46] Jimi: So it's a big dance numbers, yeah.

[49:48] Tommy: It's it's really really difficult, I think.

[49:49] Jimi: It's really but all this to say, um I would be really excited to see a show, a revival of the frogs, um, held by Nathan Lane, sure, why the hell not?

[50:01] Tommy: Um but directed by someone who's a bit more risky, do you know who's a bit more into political theatre, um, and see what that would look like because I think the content is all there.

[50:15] Jimi: I think um you think very, very long and hard about whether you do the new version or the old version.

[50:22] Tommy: Um, and I think we decide to do the old version with some of Nathan Lane's book rewrites.

[50:26] Jimi: Um But I think that that could work, and I think it would be very, very poignant for the same age for the musical theater audiences that we talked about.

[50:37] Tommy: I don't know, and and I you know what, you know, I love you and I care about you. I don't know if I've ever disagreed with you more.

[50:44] Jimi: Really?

[50:45] Tommy: Yeah, yeah.

[50:46] Jimi: But play some music here, because it leads us into our next segment.

[50:49] Tommy: Okay, great.

[50:50] Jimi: Yeah, no one has a need anymore to commit a murder, wage your war. Who you're gonna murder and what for? They're all like dead. Decease! Couples team release, and we're flying high. Hey! We're calling to AMATITROM but never stop, because there's nothing we condemn. For the model human race, we need the space. This is the place to be.

[51:26] Tommy: That's a thing because they sing.

[51:31] Jimi: How about a hamper hey?

[51:33] Tommy: How about a hamper hey?

[51:35] Jimi: How about a hamper Hades?

[51:37] Tommy: Hades.

[51:43] Jimi: I just love being king.

[51:47] Tommy: Hail Tabuto!

[51:49] Jimi: I just played a lovely concerto of Bach.

[51:53] Tommy: I and perhaps this speaks to what I you know wanted to get out earlier.

[51:58] Jimi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[51:59] Tommy: And is certainly informed by my distaste for the classics. I think this show is the most pseudo-intellectual hyper academic bullshit.

[52:10] Jimi: Interesting.

[52:10] Tommy: And should not and there should be no space for it in the post-COVID theatrical world.

[52:18] Jimi: Wow. This is great.

[52:23] Tommy: Okay, right. Totally.

[52:24] Jimi: I'm sitting back and I'm ready.

[52:26] Tommy: I uh think so and like sometime alludes to it in uh whichever hat book it is. And we talked about this. We talked about this before the show. You said that like he he goes full in on like he really didn't like the process of the show.

[52:38] Jimi: Yeah, and that you have a bit of distrust towards any kind of like if that's you know, full-on say no to this thing.

[52:45] Tommy: A very a strongly held one-directional perspective is difficult to trust.

[52:48] Jimi: And I agree with that.

[52:49] Tommy: Yeah.

[52:50] Jimi: Um But I do if you haven't read Hat recently, I I would love to start with a quote. It's how it's his general comments at the beginning.

[52:55] Tommy: Um The grows of academia are a dangerous place for producing theater.

[53:01] Jimi: The inhabitants are isolated enough from reality that they can mistake pret pretension for depth.

[53:06] Tommy: Wait, did I say that right?

[53:06] Jimi: Yeah. They can mistake pretension for depth and incompetence for art. I speak of the faculties, of course, the directors, the producers, dramaturge, not the students whose attention whose attraction to pretentiousness can be attributed to the fact that there's tastes are still being formed, and whose amateurness can be chalked up to lack of experience.

[53:20] Tommy: And I think it's a good description of this show.

[53:24] Jimi: A quote unquote loose adaptation of Aristophanes the Frogs, a product an existence of which I've already stated my displeasure for, right? Why do we care about this millennia-old piece of theater?

[53:38] Tommy: But we're gonna stick really, really, really true to the arcane structure of Greek comedy.

[53:45] Jimi: A structure that is not reproduced at other places because we've discovered better ways to do shows. Certainly we can relate back to the academics of it, but I think some of that is informed by just like, you know, the bullshit of Western academia.

[53:57] Tommy: But insert into it, no, no, no, the big plot points we're gonna change are we're gonna replace the authors with George Bernard Shaw and Shakespeare, like who have wings named after them in libraries, and like we're gonna shove our academ academic heads up our academic asses and you know stare at our bowels while we really, really look inside what we consider to be the pinnacle of theater, but is really just millennia of white men jerking themselves off in public through art.

[54:25] Jimi: And like and it it reeks of stodgy intellectualism and like a fake form of progressiveness.

[54:33] Tommy: This came out of so uh Robert Burstein, uh the guy who sometime disses the most in finishing the hat, um, who founded uh the what is it, the Yale Dramatists or the uh Yale.

[54:45] Jimi: Yeah.

[54:45] Tommy: Um and would later go on to form the ART, not the not the comet one, but uh the Harvard version of that, um, and who is a stodgy academic intellectual.

[54:54] Jimi: Um, the from my understanding, uh this was part of a movement at Yale at the time called uh No More Masterpieces, uh, where they were daring uh students to recreate classic texts in ways that reinterpreted the original, which like on its surface seems super progressive, and I'm sure was very appealing in the hippie 70s, but really is just a an assumption that like there must be no new literature, all we have are Shakespeare, Shaw, and Aristophanes, um, as opposed to exploring new work.

[55:25] Tommy: Like, stick with the old stuff, there must be something good about it.

[55:28] Jimi: Um, like this is the result of that. At Yale, like this, you know, closeted intellectual institution, but we're gonna put a progressive edge on it, because it's gonna be in a swimming pool.

[55:39] Tommy: Um, like all of this stuff.

[55:41] Jimi: And like, I had this gut instinct on top of it, and I know sometimes I take my gut instincts apart about these things beyond the truth.

[55:48] Tommy: I started looking into Robert Burstein because I had never heard about him before.

[55:52] Jimi: In um, I think in 1996, um, August Wilson uh did a speech uh as part of some theater conference called uh The Ground on Which I Stand, um, which will absolutely be linked in the show notes, and you must read.

[56:06] Tommy: Um, and is perhaps uh uh uh a uh a text I should have been taught in theater college, first of all.

[56:12] Jimi: Um, but a seminal piece of text about the whiteness of American theater um and how it you know goes on a tirade against colorblind casting.

[56:19] Tommy: It covers a lot of bases that we cover very often.

[56:21] Jimi: Um and talks about how you know it decries a lot of like uh a lot of white theaters get grants to do, you know, whatever they call it, multicultural productions, but like why not just give that money, you know, found a found whatever you would call a black theater instead of like making it this you know exoticized sort of thing.

[56:38] Tommy: And the only person August Wilson calls out by name is Robert Burstein.

[56:43] Jimi: Right.

[56:43] Tommy: And they get in a Shaw Shakespeare-esque intellectual off uh across several articles, culminating in like a literal public debate with like catcalling and shit, um, where Robert Burstein is like uh for colorblind casting, um, doesn't quite understand Wilson's call to create exclusively black theater companies.

[57:07] Jimi: Right.

[57:07] Tommy: Wilson's whole Wilson's whole whole thesis is that the black American experience is different and needs to be honored and fostered and cultivated, and that we meet on this common ground of American theater, and that we use similar tools to do it, but you can't, you know, whitewash your own black art to get there.

[57:23] Jimi: That's disingenuous.

[57:24] Tommy: And uh Burstein comes from whether it's disingenuous or not, this perspective, you know, a kind of kumbaya, why can't we all be friends perspective that is really informed by white supremacy?

[57:33] Jimi: Um, and it's a fascinating academic discussion that happened in the mid-90s.

[57:37] Tommy: And all of this is the birth that formed this like hyper-intellectual musical theater adaptation of what we call the classics, which is such a bullshit term for these things.

[57:46] Jimi: Um, and it's I think it's why I disagree.

[57:49] Tommy: I think it's, you know, fuck the classics.

[57:53] Jimi: Like, and a show that purports to be about we need new, we need different, we need revolutionary, we need to shake it up, we need to change things.

[58:02] Tommy: Great, don't fucking do the frogs again.

[58:04] Jimi: That's interesting.

[58:06] Tommy: I think um I don't I didn't know any of that about Robert Burstein, but do you think do you think you're just conflating the two of them as in one can't exist without the other?

[58:18] Jimi: I think but I think that's true because it's uh it's art about art, right?

[58:22] Tommy: No, I mean Robert Berstein and the Frogs, or the Frogs as as a piece of theater.

[58:27] Jimi: Um I think as a racist fan. I think Robert Berstein is a product of racist academia in America.

[58:33] Tommy: I think Robert Bernstein is is the villainous figurehead in this narrative that is Yale drama, right?

[58:40] Jimi: That is centuries of honoring, you know, you know, quote unquote honoring what we call Western theater.

[58:46] Tommy: Um as the uh uh Burstein's one of his first response articles to Wilson was uh he uses very heidi academic language, so it's hard to get at what he's trying to say.

[58:57] Jimi: Um but he he talks about how if we start you know fracturing the art form, it's going to be very difficult to agree upon what should be a standard of uh aesthetic. Um and that's that's white man language, right? That's that's the language of supremacy. That's the language of saying my way or the highway. Absolutely. Um and and perhaps, you know, I'm sure the man has done some fantastic theater. I do not mean to paint him with a broad brush. Um a lot of white folk, especially in academia, have their head up their butts about these things and don't realize their own implicit biases that have been reinforced by millennia of this shit. Um, and you know, August Wilson took a stand on it earlier, you know, before it was cool.

Right. And like it all it all is the same thing to me in my brain, because it is the same thing, right? You know, they the fact that they bring back Sean Shakespeare. I you I I want to tell you a story about Shakespeare. Um and I think this embodies the I've mentioned this very early on. Uh one of my bosses at school is offering a is an English teacher. Um, he is offering a uh summer Shakespeare class this summer, um, and was pitching it at one of the assemblies I run, and said the fact, do you know, and like Shakespeare has invented so many words in the English language, and I caught myself because I like my job, but um, were I to honestly correct him in that moment, like that's just untrue.

And if you're a person out there who perpetuates that myth, that's just literally untrue. What has happened is dictionary editors over the years have looked for the first record they can remember of a word being written down, and that's why we say that Shakespeare has invented the word bedroom. That can't possibly be true. But because of the institutionalized academic racism in the world, it's impossible to improve that because you can cite papers back to the 1700s that say Shakespeare invented the word bedroom. Yeah, and so there's so much false evidence on top of it. And like this is that ivory tower of you know, white man written art that we're supposed to be trying to blow up. And you know, this show exists a bit as a hallmark to it. And it's kind of a, you know, it's not a it's not a it's not a great war protest piece, it's not a great musical, as we've extolled over and over again. There's better shit. Let's do it.

[1:01:07] Tommy: Well, I I don't I do want to say that I still think the 1974 piece that Bart Shibelov and fair is good. Fair. I love parts of it. Yeah, yeah. Um what about okay? Let's just go into hypothetic schools now. Sure. Right. What about a production of The Frogs where instead of George Bernard Shaw and William Shakespeare, he goes back and he wants to bring back Maya Angelou. Right. And instead he meets Murakami as well. Yeah. Right. And Maya Angelou and Murakami have a rhetoric off, right? And he decides to bring back Murakami instead. A start. Absolutely. But and like this is where my knowledge fails me. And and because you know we're both informed by these forever western and white institutions. Why not put that narrative into an ancient text from Africa?

Or absolutely. Right? Like, this is, you know, and like the and not our place to write these things. Um, no, it's all not at all. But I think all I mean is like this exists. Sure. Right? And this and it but in this and it it still creates a conversation that didn't necessarily exist in a popular sphere before. Fair, right? Um, and that that is just a fact. Like it sure it's a fact born out of white supremacy, yeah, can't be refuted. Um but at the same time, uh I can't get away from the fact that it's only a play, changed my perspective on like I mean, like made me think about the world differently.

[1:02:38] Jimi: That's fair, and I and I don't want to discredit that either. Exactly. And I just think any piece of art that can have that impact on a person, right? Is important, you know? Um, and I I think that's why I think there is still a place for it, like, because I I appreciate that yes, we've updated theatre and we've updated structures of things and how we present things since the BC times, right? Right, but one of the things that I think is so beautiful about the world is the fact that the ideas haven't changed. Do you know what I mean? That's fair. And the fact that in four oh five BC, Aristophanes was working out my country and my world is right abysmal. And I want to know how I can fix it. And the only thing that I know that is beautiful in this world is art.

Yeah. And I want to know how my art can change things because it's all gone to shit. And it's something that I think very greatly at the moment all of us who adore art are thinking. Do not I mean we want to know how can our art fix this. I mean it's almost like but that that is another this I could turn that argument right against like okay so screw the frogs what's next right? I mean fair absolutely but at the same time if not enough people are thinking that right or if not enough if there are enough people and there are enough people in this world who are apathetic as fuck and are doing nothing. That's right. I want to play them it's only a play because sit and listen to that song and shirk it off.

Just try it. Like it's impossible, right? The frogs, fair enough it's only a play is just a different story altogether. Um and if you know I mean if I've got a theatre full of people who are feeling uncomfortable because they know everything that's happening. They know what's going on in their doorstep and I think more than ever it's more on their doorstep than never before. Yeah. And now you can't just look at it's only a play and go, ha lady which in 2004 we thought it was as bad as it could get and now look at where we are. Right, 16 years later.

[1:04:28] Tommy: But I think I think the perhaps my reaction is like you know and not that the frogs was going to fix it, but it didn't work. Um and my pro my problems with it are there's this I I think there is this falsehood of theater that God and you know this goes in direct opposition to a thing I said earlier about you have to hide your message. So who the fuck knows what I mean. Right. We're talking about the nature of art though, so I know so it's tricky steps to make here right. Pretty big deal. But like there also does seem this there is like a uh uh you know gentleman's agreement that you don't outright say what you mean in the art you're creating. Right right that that is informed by this that you know Engl high school English teachers across America being like well it's the metaphor that deeply means I'm like well no sometimes they just mean what they say sometimes it's just exactly what they say yeah sometimes people just write what they mean. And sometimes people don't mean anything else underneath it. And uh I don't know what I'm trying to say other than all of it.

[1:05:22] Jimi: Yeah yeah no but it takes this Tammy. Right really well I think and I think I think you do present a really good point that like it's a shame that we have to use this institution of historically white theatre in order to get these ideas and I will never argue with you about that fact. But it's that thing of like if if there is a path right yeah that we can take in order to get somewhere better I'll happily take those steps. You know if if it takes Kandor and Ebb, two white men to create the Scotsburg and to get that onto a national stage where people can see it and understand a story that has never been told before I know that that isn't the perfect way to tell that story. But it's a story that I would never have heard if it wasn't for Kandor and Ebb.

[1:06:10] Tommy: That's fair. That's very so there are these steps that we need to take unfortunately and tragically because we live in a stupid white art form. You know what I mean? But hopefully you know hey look at a strange flu it's changed everything right um we're getting we are getting wise. We are getting wise. Um but there's still a lot of people who can get wiser. Yeah and we and I want them to listen to the song it'll play. Do you know what I mean? I really want them to listen to that. Um and and see what happens. Yeah. I guess mostly I just want people to burn their classics books, really is what I'm saying.

[1:06:49] Jimi: Yeah, they really do. I think that really. Oh, it's a shame because the Aeneid is so good. Such a shame. But yes, I would give you that. And I'm sure a lot of people out there studying classics right now would agree. Yeah. God, I hate I hate that we teach Shakespeare in high school English classes. Yeah, no, there's there's other people we could teach. And and I love Shakespeare. I hate that we yeah, never. I like some Shakespeare. I liked it because it was we got to do theatre in English, but like English teachers don't know how to teach Shakespeare.

[1:07:17] Tommy: No. Anyone who says go home and read the scene has already done it wrong. Yes, I agree. Right. And and it's so easy to understand why, yet so many people don't. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I can put it up right there with you. Don't you worry. And the best English teacher, right? Stand on a beautifully high note called um Mrs. Wainwright. I can't actually remember that first name. Um best integer I've ever ever had. And uh with her we studied Rome and Juliet. Uh-huh. Great. Um excellent. And step one in her class was, okay, tables and chairs to the side. And you know straight away you're gonna be a good English teacher. And she was honestly the one of the best teachers I've ever ever had, because she just got like she understood that English was so much more than opening a book.

Yeah. Um and shockingly enough, I did extremely well that year. Whether what no matter what was her name? Mrs. Mrs. Wainwright. Mrs. Wainwright, even even if she still is on this earth, I'd go back to Hades to grab her.

[1:08:16] Jimi: Oh, a hundred percent. Oh, we'd have a great day in the boat.

[1:08:22] ♪ Musical number ♪

[1:09:17] Jimi: Don't worry. Relax. On with the play.

[1:09:32] Jimi: Jimmy, that was the frogs. Wow. Did you I'm so curious who thought who started this podcast? We're like, they're gonna argue about that. Well, who started this podcast and continued listening to it too? Because we didn't make a point for about half an hour. Hey, that's fine. It's worth worth the wait. We have a very organic art form, Jimmy. We truly, truly do. Hey, speaking of organic art forms, um It's her birthday soon. Our our hundredth episodes coming up. Exactly. You may have noticed our episode number has been creeping up. This is episode 98. Before next time we'll have 99, and then bam bada-da. We're gonna have 100 episodes. It's taken us a while to get here, but hey, we've made it. And we have big plans. First off, get ready. We're gonna record it live for you a digital studio audience.

[1:10:20] Tommy: Exactly. From Rockefeller Center, if that's where you want to listen, or elsewhere. Absolutely. We will be in the comfort of our own homes. Um but yes, we would love you to join us. Um it's going to be on Saturday, April 24th at 2 p.m. Pacific, 5 p.m. Eastern, 10 p.m. GMT. If you live elsewhere, just Google it. It's really, really easy. Um and we would love for you to join us. Tommy, tell us what we're gonna be getting up to.

[1:10:47] Tommy: Well, we need your help. We would love for you to send us your questions. What have you always wanted to know about Jim and Tomic the Happy Hour or our endeavor over these past five plus years? Wow. Um, or tweet at us your favorite moments from past episodes. It's super helpful if you can uh remember uh about where in the episode it was. But if not, we'll figure it out. What did you like? What were you what were moments you enjoyed? And when you tweet us these things or Instagram us or whatever, use the hashtag 100 happy hours.

[1:11:13] Jimi: Yes, that is the number 100 happy hours. Because we've done 100 happy hours. Um and if you do, very excitingly, um, we're gonna be giving away some prizes live on the show. So do make sure you're using that hashtag. Yeah, 100 happy hours. Tweet us your questions or your favorite moments. I can't wait! It's gonna be a hundred! Wow, that's so many. The centennial, we'll talk about it for years. Hey, but we need to deal with 99.

[1:11:43] Tommy: No, 90. Hey! Oh no, it's 99. Hey! We need to deal with number 99 first. What's that gonna be? I'll tell you because it's me to read out the quiz question. It is. We are nothing if not a well-structured podcast. It's good after 99 episodes that we're still working it out. Um, hey, looking for love? Boy, have we got the show for you? Yes, this is the quiz question. We're developing a dating app named after our next Joe. It pairs you with another performer who has played the exact same character in that show. For example, we have these two rave reviews from two happy couples. Tommy, can you read us the reviews?

[1:12:18] Jimi: If you want to get in touch with us, our show Twitter and Instagram is at Jim and Tomic, or you can email at us at our website, jim and Tomic.com.

[1:12:25] Tommy: Yes, indeed. Um if you head on over to our website, you will see that we do indeed have some merch available if you'd like to check that out. Uh we've also got a Discord, which is just my favorite thing in the world, and we would love to have you join us. Um you can find a link for that in the show notes right now. Um it does run out pretty quickly, but don't worry, we will always put it out. And uh while you're on our website, you can also check out our Patreon if you want to financially support the show. And you can endeavour to watch our video podcast Last Call, where you can hear us talk about stuff. It's a lot of fun. And of course, thank you to all of our current current patrons.

[1:12:55] Jimi: Yes, we do love very, very dearly. But um, if you'd like to help us out in any way, shape or form, um, the best thing you can do is just tell your pals all about this show um and the 100 episodes that we have. Indeed. But that's all we got for today. Thanks for listening, everyone. And Jimmy, cheers.

[1:13:11] Tommy: Cheers.

[1:13:27] Jimi: And we have to be so bad.

[1:13:29] Tommy: P really badly.

[1:13:30] Jimi: Go, go, go.

[1:13:31] Tommy: That was great.