This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Alex Smolowe: Hey Alex.

[0:01] Nik Walker: Hello, Nicholas.

[0:04] Alex Smolowe: How are you doing?

[0:05] Nik Walker: I'm good. I'm good. It's Monday morning. I got my coffee. Uh ready for ready for the week. Ready to dive in to what the week has to bring me.

[0:13] Alex Smolowe: That's lovely. Let me tell you two problems that I have. I'll tell you why.

[0:19] Nik Walker: Number one, snowing outside, you know. So that's that's never the most fun.

[0:28] Alex Smolowe: Right off with your 70 degrees. Here's the other thing. Uh burger, half-eaten burger that was in my fridge. Uh ate it. Immediately not feeling good about that decision. And like I don't think I don't think it's food poisoning. I don't think I'm gonna throw up. It doesn't feel like that, but it's just like when did you order this burger?

[0:45] Nik Walker: The burger was ordered, I believe, Thursday night. This were we we were recording this on a Monday, by the way. Monday is when we're recording this. So it was either. Okay, so this is a three-day old burger.

[0:55] Alex Smolowe: Now, is this a nice burger or not nice burger?

[0:57] Nik Walker: Nice burger.

[1:00] Alex Smolowe: Okay. So you had to s you had to choose how you wanted that thing cooked.

[1:03] Nik Walker: Yeah, this was this was this was an expensive burger. It's like a that's a thick patty.

[1:07] Alex Smolowe: Thick patty. And and how do you take your burger?

[1:10] Nik Walker: Medium.

[1:12] Alex Smolowe: This one was medium.

[1:14] Nik Walker: Yeah, medium little pinky on the inside.

[1:16] Alex Smolowe: A little pinky on the inside, yeah. And it's since Thursday night it's been sitting there.

[1:20] Nik Walker: Well, in the fridge.

[1:23] Alex Smolowe: But yeah.

[1:24] Nik Walker: Yeah. Sounds like you got you got greedy.

[1:28] Alex Smolowe: I got greedy.

[1:30] Nik Walker: You had a good burger sitting there.

[1:31] Alex Smolowe: I did got greedy. This is not good. Speaking of which.

[1:34] Nik Walker: Well, and this is this, you know, so so yeah, we're, you know, speaking of the greed, the greed movie, which is this episode today. So again, these are these cold opens being recorded in the future, talking about things in the past. We have our guest, the incredible Kelly AuCoin from uh from such amazing shows as uh as as as as The Americans and uh right now Billions. Uh he is such an incredible actor. Um I have an amazing story about how I met this person, um, and and that is what the episode is on today. We actually, again, in classic little justice fashion, do not get to the movie in this episode.

[2:11] Alex Smolowe: So if you're looking for the it's becoming a trend. I feel like we should get some feedback on if people actually care or not. Because I mean these conversations, they get too interesting. You know, they're too much fun, and you don't you don't want to stop and talk about movies. And here's the thing. Once we pop the top on Kelly, he goes, and that was kind of the brilliance too, was that Kelly's such a beautiful man. He's just such a good soul, and he just like first of all, we we have to be honest with you. It took us 30 minutes to figure out tech-wise how to get him in the room.

[2:40] Nik Walker: It was like that was a journey in itself, which I partially wish we'd recorded. But once we got in, he was it was I mean, the session went for like two and a half hours. Um, so you know, I think that this is gonna be a really great one. Then you'll have another one where we actually at some point talk about movies, but even then I don't even think that that goes right to the movies. This is this is gonna be two episodes of just insanity.

[2:48] Alex Smolowe: This is gonna be two episodes of insanity. And then, on top of it all, after those two episodes of insanity, we're taking a little break.

[3:10] Nik Walker: Yes, we are, resetting all the gears.

[3:14] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, we're gonna rebrand.

[3:15] Nik Walker: We're gonna rebrand rebrand.

[3:18] Alex Smolowe: And then we're kinda then we're coming back big, baby.

[3:21] Nik Walker: Yeah, then we're gonna have video and we're gonna have strippers and fucking confetti and cake.

[3:27] Alex Smolowe: It's gonna be cake, right?

[3:29] Nik Walker: We are doing cake.

[3:30] Alex Smolowe: Yeah. It's a podcast, not a Colombian drug lord birthday party, but you know.

[3:37] Nik Walker: What's the difference? Little just fuck yeah.

[3:49] Alex Smolowe: So, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back. Welcome back to Little Justice, this thing that we do for for no good reason. I am Nik Walker. Who are you?

[3:56] Nik Walker: Who's Alex?

[3:57] Alex Smolowe: Um Alex Smolowe.

[3:59] Nik Walker: That's amazing.

[3:59] Alex Smolowe: It is. And uh, you know, we're here, we have we have movies that we talk about, but today we we have a very awesome guest. Uh a man who uh I mean I would I truly do not need an introduction because literally you just look up anything with his name and you're gonna find just a myriad, a myriad, a myriad of stuff that this man is involved in and doing. Um he he and and more specifically, I would say that one of the most amazing things about this man is like a special connection that truly Alex has no idea.

[4:27] Alex Smolowe: No, I'm I'm excited. You've built this story. It better be a good story.

[4:30] Nik Walker: It is a good story, built it up, like like no no no, you just wait till we record, and I'm gonna tell you all about it.

[4:35] Alex Smolowe: Exactly. Well, Kelly, get on in here. Kelly, how you doing?

[4:38] Kelly AuCoin: I'm good. I'm good. No, I can't wait to see if this is gonna live up to the hype or not.

[4:42] Nik Walker: It might not. I mean, I don't know. It's 2021, like we don't know anymore. Do you know, like, yes, the world's a function?

[4:53] Kelly AuCoin: It's like, uh, now it's like creepy.

[4:56] Nik Walker: But let's let me let me think. It's like creepy. Uh, let's not go with creepy just yet. But like yeah, let's let's see where it's let's see where it lands.

[5:01] Kelly AuCoin: Let's see where it lands. Why am I why am I putting a judgment on it? You're right. I'm sorry. We gotta let it echo through us and reverberate.

[5:08] Nik Walker: Echo through. Just like when we were trying to set this up. It's like, what's the fuck is wrong with Kelly's mic?

[5:15] Kelly AuCoin: Do not invite the echo back. What you guys don't know is that prior to this, we spent a good 10 minutes trying to figure out why there was an echo in this recording studio.

[5:24] Nik Walker: Right. And it was it was beautiful. I mean, we figured it out. Like it is, we are on it now, but like guys, then yes. May I bring something up? I thought it was really interesting that y'all picked on the old guy, and you all assumed it was me.

[5:36] Kelly AuCoin: Nope. I did too. I went there right away. I was like, it's all this is Kelly. What's wrong with Kelly's mic? And then it turned out to be Alex.

[5:41] Nik Walker: But the thing exactly. It was it was me. To be to be fair, in 30 episodes, we've never had this. Somehow I've never had to hit the echo cancellation button. I assume we all had an echo cancellation button. Everything's fine.

[5:54] Kelly AuCoin: No. But uh today's the day, you know, you bring the old man in and just goes crazy.

[5:59] Nik Walker: The old little old echo, man.

[6:01] Kelly AuCoin: Bring him. A little old one. Uh the the but thanks, thankful for uh for our producer Brittany who saved our butts as as she as she's wont to do.

[6:09] Nik Walker: She's awesome. Uh she's awesome. Uh so Alex, let me tell you the story. I mean, let's go back. We're gonna go back in a time machine to 2005.

[6:17] Kelly AuCoin: All right.

[6:18] Nik Walker: There's a show. There's a show that is being done on Broadway on the Broadway. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's a thing, and it's called Julius Caesar. And uh the the man playing Brutus is an actor named Denzel Washington.

[6:31] Kelly AuCoin: And uh it was it, you know, this was a huge like this was like buzz production. I was I was I think uh what 2005, so I was 18 at the I'm I don't even know how old I was anymore. I don't know. I'm too old now.

[6:46] Nik Walker: Uh but but I was I was a young man with with young man thoughts and ideas and things. I think no, I was much younger than that. I was much younger than that. But point being I was so excited about this production because we had just done Ants uh Anthony and Cleopatra at my high school.

[7:00] Kelly AuCoin: Um whether we were qualified as high schoolers to be doing Anthony and Cleopatra is a discussion for another day.

[7:07] Nik Walker: But uh I was obsessed with the character of Octavius, and uh Octavius Caesar in Anthony Cleopatra has just a very interesting arc. He's kind of in the middle of this battle and then very kind of underhandedly manipulates the entire thing and comes out on top of this.

[7:26] Kelly AuCoin: And I had so many questions about how Julius Caesar, which is in a lot of ways the prequel to Anthony Cleopatra, connects to Anthony Cleopatra. And so I go to see this play, and I'm I'm young and I'm I'm dumb and I'm excited and it's intense.

[7:42] Nik Walker: I mean, truly, and Kelly, we got to talk about this. You guys pretty much put what I I can only imagine was inspired by the Iraq war up on stage. So like, do you know what I mean? Like, like when I say there's full out like explosions and rubble falling everywhere. I mean, it was it was insane. It was truly like watching like the Manchurian candidate, but oh no, it's Julius Caesar, and it's and it's just like this this all-encompassing thing, really huge production.

[8:10] Kelly AuCoin: Um, and the actor that was playing this role of Octavius was was spectacular and truly just had a way of of navigating this text in that role that that was like even then as like a young as a kid, I was like, okay, this is there's just something really cool going on here.

[8:28] Nik Walker: And so I we, you know, when you when you go see a bro a Broadway show, you stage door, or or you if you're a fan, you stage door. Um sometimes like actors may or may not may not stage door, like it, you know, it may not happen, like especially I think this was a matinee, so it's a two-show day of like a very intense show.

[8:46] Kelly AuCoin: Um, so most actors, I I can say now, like, you know, it's very tempting to like not come outside to like go and do a smoke break or go and get your lunch or whatever.

[8:57] Nik Walker: Uh every, you know, Denzel comes out, the horde of Denzel fans crowd Denzel, Denzel gets into his car, he goes wherever he goes, and that's and whatever.

[9:06] Alex Smolowe: Um, I wasn't waiting for Denzel. I was waiting for this guy who played Octavius.

[9:10] Nik Walker: And um I wonder who it's gonna be. I wonder who's gonna be. The thing I the thing I want to say is this.

[9:14] Kelly AuCoin: It was a Bradley Whitford.

[9:19] Nik Walker: My God, I would have done it. He was phenomenal. But the thing, no, what I want to say is this this is this is what really sparked it for me. So Kelly comes out, and again, Matt and Ace.

[9:30] Kelly AuCoin: You got you got two shows that day.

[9:32] Nik Walker: I had the most asinine question, like, you know what I mean? Like, it was so ridiculous. But you not only took the time to talk to me, you talked to me for a good 15 minutes.

[9:42] Kelly AuCoin: Like, and I and it was one of those moments that I will never forget because you were you had just been on stage on Broadway doing Shakespeare. You were a legend to me already without even knowing you.

[9:55] Nik Walker: And the idea that you would take the time to talk to me, like you have to like again, giving you full context. I was at a point even in my young life where I was like, I don't know if this is what I want to do, I don't know if theater is worth it.

[10:06] Kelly AuCoin: You came out, you talked to me, you gave me that time, you answered my questions, and then you went on your day. And when I got when I got Burr, that was like the thing I knew because of that moment, I was like, yo, I'm gonna talk to everybody at the stage door, no matter what, because I remember what that was for me.

[10:25] Nik Walker: And that's this guy we got in the studio today. And that's why, like, truly I we are I'm beyond excited to have you here.

[10:31] Kelly AuCoin: Cause like it is I cannot tell you how full circle and surreal this is for me to have you on a pod on a podcast, like 15 years later.

[10:40] Nik Walker: So thank you for being here. But that is that is the story of how we how we met 15 years ago.

[10:45] Kelly AuCoin: Oh man, I love that. I um it's funny because I as you contacted me, I think right after you got Burr. You were maybe we found each other on Instagram or something.

[10:57] Nik Walker: Um and you were about to go on the road, maybe you were in Seattle.

[11:01] Kelly AuCoin: Uh it was something, but it was really early on, and you you told me a um a very condensed version of that story.

[11:01] Nik Walker: Very condensed.

[11:08] Kelly AuCoin: It made me um uh it made it made me feel great. I don't want to say it made me proud because that sounds weird, but it's not that. I'm glad that that was um our interaction.

[11:19] Nik Walker: I actually have a little bit of a memory of it, it's not specific, but a little bit of a memory of it.

[11:24] Kelly AuCoin: And I do remember enjoying the conversation and being challenged by your questions, which was awesome.

[11:31] Nik Walker: You know, it was like, why this choice, or why that? What do you think?

[11:34] Kelly AuCoin: And I and it not, you know, you weren't saying, What the fuck were you doing up there? Not that kind of challenge, but it was just you were curious, and you weren't just saying, How do I get an agent? or how or how did you get on Broadway? It was like it was really about the character, and um, and I and I I really I really enjoyed that.

[11:54] Nik Walker: I um I'm glad that it meant a lot to you. Um that play meant a lot to me. I enjoyed um I remember I I'd seen that show a number of times, and I always thought that the character was done wrong.

[12:09] Kelly AuCoin: Um, it was always, and it's not there's no right or wrong, but uh it was boring to me seeing this constantly the interpretation seemed to be just this earnest figure, this person who is just like the I'm the shining light and I'm the do gooder. And I was like, no, no, it's not. That's not him. There's he there's a weaselish quality to this. And why I and so when I went into audition, I have to admit, I had just that was my first Broadway show. And uh I had just been cast in the um uh The Pillow Man. Um as well, in a much smaller role, but still, so I I didn't desperately need this gig, um, which always helps when you're not when you don't when you go to an audition and you're not desperate. Uh so I I felt a certain confidence.

I I I think I have this now anyway, but at the time I I needed the external, maybe the safety net to be able to go in and and have a take that was not really um uh what everyone was doing or how everyone thought about it. And I just thought this was like just sort of a little brat in a way. That he was a like he he was a like he was a lead singer in a boy band, like a really good boy band, but like something there was something else to it that was more fun to play. And like when early on in rehearsals, I started chewing gum during all my scenes just because I thought that was kind of just like a disrespectful douchey thing to do, but I think it actually made I I I loved it. Uh Daniel Sullivan, who directed it, um, said that he thought that it was funny and he liked the take.

And he told me later, because I just worked with him on a show at MTC last year. He said, Yeah, when you came in with that take, I was really surprised. It's not at all what I thought, but uh of the character, but it made it it it finally made the character interesting to me. And so I I sound like I'm patting myself on the back. I don't mean to be. It's just because it's not like it's the lead role, but I just think it was something interesting, and it was something that surprised people, and some people hated it. Um, but I thought it was fun. Denzel, I think, hated it.

[14:15] Alex Smolowe: Really?

[14:16] Kelly AuCoin: I think I annoyed him in rehearsals.

[14:19] Alex Smolowe: Um good, that's kind of the point.

[14:22] Kelly AuCoin: I kind of think so too. So it was, you know, whatever. I it I got to act with one of the greatest actors uh you know Hollywood has ever seen. And um I got to see him on stage for the first time in quite a while and blown away by his skill and everything and his commitment there. But it was kind of at first a little uh I was like, oh no, he doesn't like me. But I think it was just he thought my character was a dick, and so why would he hang out?

[14:46] Alex Smolowe: That's hysterical.

[14:47] Kelly AuCoin: But it was funny anyway. So all that to say, um uh that means a lot, and it was a it was a great interaction, and uh I loved doing that play. I felt very honored to do the play. Uh yeah. And to your point, dude, I think that's kind of what what I saw. And and and right, because when you have a text like that, when you have a text like like a Julius Caesar, right, where you this is th we have seen how many choices on this text, right? How many productions, how many people have done this? So the only thing you can do is bring yourself and your ideas. Not to say that you're a gum chewing dick, but to say that to say that the the courage to be like, I'm I'm just gonna swing for the fences, I'm gonna make a choice here and and see how it works.

And especially because I think that that is Alex, please forgive me my Shakespeare nerdiness for a second. That is such a a nice gesture in that again, this is to me, he is the little finger of this entire saga. Yeah, this this is the person who somehow, in in a in two shows of people dying left and right, this man says, Nope, I'm here, and I s and and I figured it out. And so it was it was like cool just to see those kernels of it, even like that was just such a great thing. Um so yeah, man. I love that.

[16:03] Alex Smolowe: I love the Littlefinger reference.

[16:04] Kelly AuCoin: And of course, this was long before uh Game of Thrones was a show. But um, but yeah, that's that that that's kind of the way I thought of him. He there he there was a entitled Little Weasel uh in him. I had a great time. And I had a wonderful time working with Eamon Walker, yeah, um who played uh Mark Anthony.

[16:23] Alex Smolowe: Oh yeah.

[16:25] Kelly AuCoin: He and I had a blast. Uh he he gave me alpha male lessons um for my for my Denzel scenes.

[16:31] Alex Smolowe: I love it. Uh what what are if you don't mind, what were some of those lessons?

[16:36] Kelly AuCoin: I we have to ask. So uh there was one there was one time. I well, I remember one time in rehearsal, Amon saying, He's fucking with you. Uh and you gotta fuck with him back. Huh. Because I was being a little too um, I think I was being a little too uh careful, and so I did. And then there was a there was one preview show where he God, we never got within our characters, just like uh we're always leading our troops on the opposite sides of stage. He came, he traveled 15, 20 feet directly at me with the Denzel stare, and ended up like in his nose in my nerves. I hate it, and I was like, I don't know where the fuck that came from, but it was awesome. But I I think what I I sort of I didn't in in preparing to meet whatever was coming my way, I wasn't particularly grounded, and I took like a step back because I was off balance.

[17:39] Alex Smolowe: Oh shit.

[17:40] Kelly AuCoin: And he took me aside and was like, do not ever, ever lose your balance. Like it was just some sort of like, you ground, you stay there, and if he knocks you over, make him knock you over. And I was like, Oh, okay, okay, okay. Yeah, and you know, it wasn't it, it's there was a dramatic way he did it. I mean, there was nothing fucking like Denzel after the show that time, he was like, Hey, we're that was a fun thing we did. You know, he wasn't trying to fuck with me. But um, but it was like he was throwing shit at me to see to because that would help mix it up, that would help create something kinetic between these characters who hate each other.

[18:15] Alex Smolowe: Yes.

[18:15] Kelly AuCoin: And I didn't meet the moment that time. It was fine. And actually, it there it storytelling-wise, it would be fine if this little brat was thrown off balance uh by this move. That's fine. But it's more interesting if in his uh well, more interesting to me, uh, if in his um somewhere in that callow quality in that callowness, he actually is he is sure, like Littlefinger was sure until the moment he actually died. Spoiler alert. Spoiler. Um he was sure of himself. So it's even more interesting to me. There were a couple times when he would throw something at me and um, you know, I'd blow him a kiss or walk off stage or something. And that um I it just the dynamics were fascinating. Um the the power dynamics were fascinating. And once I um fully felt comfortable in doing that, it um it made the I think the uh those scenes better.

[19:11] Alex Smolowe: That's that's it's so crazy. It's just so people don't because what I love about that too is it's the kind of thing that, like you said, it happened once, and then you're trying different things from then on. So every every night out of the audience is coming, they're getting a you know, they're getting the same meal, right? They're they're ordering off the same menu, but like there was a different chef in the kitchen that night. You just it's just like those little things that that keep it alive for you.

[19:35] Kelly AuCoin: Yeah. Yeah.

[19:36] Alex Smolowe: And I and I love it. And that's what and it it I mean people often theater people understand but a lot of people don't understand that it's also what the audience brings any given night.

[19:45] Kelly AuCoin: Yep.

[19:45] Alex Smolowe: The way they react or the energy in the room. It's not even just about people always say oh yeah if they laugh at a joke and it's like well yeah that's the obvious thing but just an energy there's a different energy every audience brings to a show to every performance and that that affects what you do that affects then the audience again that affects the other actors and it is yes you want the show to be within this um this this this general world but great directors will allow great ensembles to um to push at the boundaries a little bit and then um and and know when maybe they've gone too far or um you know it's always great when a director's like you can't go too far and then the show implodes.

[20:29] Kelly AuCoin: But um, but Dan Sullivan was always great at that one of the things he always he always talked about was um always different but always what we're always within the I mean this isn't just him but uh and I don't remember his exact words but it was basically he love he loves shows that are and performances that are always different but always always recognizable in the world we created.

[20:53] Alex Smolowe: Yes.

[20:53] Kelly AuCoin: Um and playing ball I'm for me it's about it's sports I play basketball, I love team sports, um, and I like ensemble sports.

[21:05] Alex Smolowe: Yes.

[21:05] Alex Smolowe: Yes.

[21:05] Kelly AuCoin: I like ensemble, I love the five men on a court playing ball with each other is a much more interesting thing to me than watching one superstar take the ball and shoot every time.

[21:15] Kelly AuCoin: And that's one of the things I that's why I love ensemble theater. The only award I ever won was uh was part of a um a um the only acting award was part of uh uh outstanding ensemble um in in a show I did, and that I could not be prouder if I had won an Emmy, you know. It's just that that to me is what we were doing.

[21:36] Alex Smolowe: That's amazing.

[21:36] Kelly AuCoin: It's what I realized through Amon's help. It was what I realized Denzel was doing with me. He was playing ball and he wanted me to play ball back.

[21:44] Alex Smolowe: Well, and because you're talking about the the wayside motor in, right?

[21:47] Kelly AuCoin: Yeah.

[21:48] Alex Smolowe: So so that's that's kind of my question, right? Because you, you know, in that in that love of playing ball, in that love of what the audience is giving you and what the what the actors are giving you, and what the what the set is giving you, right? All these things that come together to culminate in that that kind of you know, again, that that basketball. That's that's what it is. How does that then translate to like someone like you who has done that, but you also have a prolific television career?

[22:14] Kelly AuCoin: Do you know what I mean?

[22:15] Alex Smolowe: Like like where what what are the what are the kind of parallels with that approach and the approach that you take on set?

[22:25] Kelly AuCoin: Interesting question. I mean, I I think my first response to that, I guess, would be off the top of my head that because you have so much less rehearsal on TV, you almost rely even more on that back and forth playing ball, feeding off of each other, a good performance more necessarily or a good scene, even more necessarily depends on intense, ferocious listening and um and responding.

[22:48] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[22:49] Kelly AuCoin: I've loved that the shows um I've been in have generally been ensemble shows.

[22:55] Alex Smolowe: Yep.

[22:55] Kelly AuCoin: Uh or shows where I am definitely a part of an ensemble. I'm uh sometimes you're leading the the action and sometimes not, but in essence, they are ensemble shows. The House of Cards was a little bit different because it was just Michael Kelly and me, all of my scenes were with him. I played his brother. But again, he's I mean, God, I if you if if I hope you guys are familiar with his work, he's fantastic.

[23:17] Alex Smolowe: Yes.

[23:17] Kelly AuCoin: Ridiculous. And I would love to do a play with him. I think he would be one of those guys that plays ball. So I think I think that would be the initial answer. I mean, the the main difference with TV for me was the lack early on, was that the lack of rehearsal made me feel much more um technical, much more by the numbers.

[23:37] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[23:37] Kelly AuCoin: And there's nothing wrong with with being technical, you want that. It probably helped me as an actor overall because I was more of a feeler rather than a technician.

[23:46] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[23:46] Kelly AuCoin: Um, but I think being both is is the key to longevity anyway. But I once I started getting shows becoming a recurring character, or I guess House of Cards was the first one. What took the place of all that rehearsal was the previous episodes you've shot. So you have you rehearsal is for me, at least in one sense, is about creating a history that you can then draw on when you're doing a scene on stage.

[24:14] Kelly AuCoin: And you've created the history if you've been on a show 10, 12, 50 times, because you've created that history by simply doing those previous scenes.

[24:23] Nik Walker: Yeah.

[24:23] Kelly AuCoin: You can draw on that, not exactly the same way, but in a similar way that you can draw on your rehearsal. It's not that you're thinking about it in every moment, you're transcending it, but it's there. You don't need to discover your character every time you go on set to do a different episode. The character is there now. You just then have to be the character and respond to the given circumstances of the scene and what people are throwing at you, what the script has you do this time, as opposed to a play where you're creating everything from the beginning.

[24:52] Nik Walker: Um, is a lot of that work put on you to do, like could you get through be even if you are recurring and you're in every episode, like could you get by kind of without putting in that effort, like like, or is it you kind of get out what you put in? Like it's on you to evolve over time because every episode you got a different director and a different flow and cast members coming in and out.

[25:16] Kelly AuCoin: Well, that is an interesting thing, too. Yeah, what you just said about directors. That was that's a huge difference as well. You rarely see the same director twice. Um, and that it that's odd. But that becomes something empowering, it puts more responsibility on the actor, and it becomes empowering because you then know more than the director does. But uh is it up to you? Yeah, it's up to you. No one has time to walk you through what they think your backstory is this moment, what your motivation is. At the moment, by the time you get to the director on set, you have a blocking rehearsal where you sort of hash out, you know, I think it'd be good maybe if you come over here, because they're thinking about shots and they're thinking about physical dynamics and visual storytelling.

You have a blocking rehearsal, then they bring in the crew and you show them, maybe you tweak a little bit because it's not going to be great for lights, and then you go away and they set up the lights and everything, and then you come back and you start shooting. And that's when you start getting notes from directors about well, that's not really working. Maybe try it a little bit. Uh, but there's no time for nuanced acting notes to me. Yeah, sometimes people try, and some people are better at receiving them, but at that point I have a really hard time with someone trying to get into my head and say I was gonna say like like especially seasons on like is a director that you've never worked before gonna tell you anything about your character that you've lived with for years they have I mean I actually had uh unfortunately a very very pivotal scene in um in The Americans where a director we were fundamentally at odds about what was going on in um in my character Pastor Tim's head and it the response that she gave the reasoning she gave just didn't make sense to me but I tried and tried and tried to make it work the way she wanted and then she finally at the end I was very fr I think we both were frustrated that it wasn't working and at the end she said do do it do it the way you want to do it just try it and we made did a couple takes and by that time though I I couldn't get and this is on me to speak this speaks to what you were asking about responsibility it was on me that I couldn't get that direction and my disappointment in not being able to achieve the thing I didn't think was right anyway out of my head so I couldn't do the thing I wanted to do and it just became a bland mush.

[27:46] Kelly AuCoin: And then I you know I saw this scene which should have been a pivotal scene and I guess was story wise but it was just a bland mush. And I remember talking to uh one of the producers about it a year later, uh, just happened to mention something about a director and how that can be hard. And he was like, Who are you talking about? And he was, and I mentioned who she was and he said, Oh, my god, she's great. And the episode was great. It just didn't work on for me in our relationship and my character and my storyline. And I mentioned what happened, and he was like, Oh, yeah, you know, that is funny. I was I remember being surprised that that scene didn't pop like your scenes with that character usually did.

[28:26] Nik Walker: Yeah.

[28:27] Kelly AuCoin: Anyway, so that's that's a long-winded uh say it is on you. Um I do think it's important to be civil and respectful and listen when somebody um is brought in. Uh they're a guest on your show, but they are they're brought in to lead that show. Yeah, to lead that episode. And so I think it's incumbent upon you to listen to the ideas that they have, but then be able to more um more effectively than I did, argue your points and not fight, but argue your points.

[29:00] Kelly AuCoin: And um and be ready to do when they finally inevitably say, okay, do it, do it the way you want to do it. Let's see it. You have to deliver. And I didn't. And but I think it was a good learning lesson. Learning lesson. That's a learning lesson as opposed to the other kind of lesson.

[29:15] Nik Walker: Exactly.

[29:16] Kelly AuCoin: It's a lesson you learn as opposed to the lesson that you, I don't know, shit out your ass. I mean, who knows? It's again, 2021, guys. We're we're dealing with what we got. Uh, but but I I love that. I mean, here this is actually a perfect, kind of a perfect segue into into what I wanted to ask about. And the guys, as always, we promised there are movies in this podcast.

[29:34] Nik Walker: Uh we do eventually get to them.

[29:36] Kelly AuCoin: Eventually, but not now. Two too many important things. Um, but but that that right, you have that you have that pressure anyway, right? You're dealing with shows where you have new directors coming in every day or you know, every shoot, and and figuring out you have to kind of re-ground yourself in who you are and take responsibility and navigate these things. That's on a regular day. You're now filming in a pandemic. Do you know what I mean? And and so I would imagine that there's there's even more pressure to to get these things right because there's just so much extra money going into these shoots.

[30:11] Nik Walker: Um and my question to you becomes how are you taking care of your your mind and your soul and your body so that you can you know take that take that that not pressure, maybe there is no pressure, but if there is, how are you alleviating it at the end of the day in this like filming in this climate?

[30:29] Kelly AuCoin: Yeah. Well, I haven't had to deal with it yet because I have yet to film um fair my last day uh shooting anything was uh was March 12th on the billion set. So I have not done anything beyond um uh uh YouTube talk show that I started with someone and uh a couple other things, but nothing on set.

[30:53] Kelly AuCoin: Um I would guess that yes, there will be more pressure. Thank you for pointing that out. That'll be in my brain now.

[31:03] Nik Walker: Sorry.

[31:04] Kelly AuCoin: No, uh so hard. I think TV is generally, you know, you get you gotta knock it out much more than film. So, in a way, if you've done a lot of it, you'll get used to that. This will just be a little bit more pressurized. If you get more than three takes, maybe more, but definitely more than five takes, then you're probably behind. Um so I I think it's just gonna be what we're used to a little on steroids.

[31:38] Nik Walker: Yep.

[31:39] Kelly AuCoin: Um, and we are looking, I mean, we're if things are looking good for us being back to shooting the spring, which is great. The thing that's gonna kill me is what I mean I got involved in theater to begin with partially because I was you know I don't know it was a loudmouth and um I liked entertaining people and making people laugh but I also just love the camaraderie. Uh the green room is my favorite place to be. I loved Julius Caesar because they were big sprawling dressing rooms with tons of guys like making each other laugh and I love being on set in an ensemble piece like Billions where there's a bunch of us and we're texting each other even while we're filming if we're in the background we're having drinks in someone's dressing room after we're done and it's just it's um that's gonna be different and that's gonna be hard.

[32:24] Nik Walker: Yep.

[32:25] Kelly AuCoin: Uh just yeah no I get I got nothing. That's good that's going to be a huge part of that's of the bummer of going back to work. It's it's truly it is a ridiculous thing to think about. And that's that's why I say you know I I I'm just always interested to hear even even offset just how people are taking care of themselves, especially artists because the world that we're gonna go back into when when we go when you go back to set when you know when I go back to the to the Imperial these are this is gonna be a very different thing and even that is going to be not you know traumatic I know sounds so so dramatic but but it is a state of trauma. It is that that change of like oh yeah we can't we might not be able to do that thing.

And that that thing is so much a part of who we are but that's I mean that is also uh another another brilliant segue by me. Thank you. It's also so much of so much of the reason that I I love what you do off camera and off stage in terms of your using your platform for for change. You know what I mean? Because that that is what it's gonna take is how do we build these safe spaces?

[33:30] Nik Walker: Um so uh final question, and then I promise we will talk about movies.

[33:35] Kelly AuCoin: But but where did where did that where did that start for you? I know I know that you kind of have a lineage of of standing up and and making change in the world.

[33:43] Kelly AuCoin: The political activism, you mean social activism?

[33:46] Nik Walker: That that in that entire thing.

[33:49] Kelly AuCoin: Yeah, I I mean I grew up in a family. I've got a photograph I think I posted recently. Um I was one or two, and my sister was a year older. We were marching against the Vietnam War. Uh and my dad is in a suit and um combed hair, and he always uh he became a politician years later. He was a congressman for 18 years. Um liberal democrat, progressive democrat, but he was always like not a hair out of place. People always thought he looked like a Republican, but he voted like it was like looks like Barry Goldwater, votes like Bella Abzug, was what um one of his opponents said.

[34:25] Nik Walker: Love it.

[34:25] Kelly AuCoin: If you guys don't know who Bella Abzug is, who's any of you listening, you look her up. She was she was incredible. So yeah, it just if I grew up in a family, and I've said this before, but I grew up I grew up in a family where the phrase fight the good fight was used all the time, and never ironically. There was something that an idea, it was it was good trouble. It was there fight the good fight. Uh, there's a fight that there are things worth fighting for, there are things worth losing your reputation for, there are things worth uh losing money for. And um, and I guess that that never left me. My mom, my dad was, you know, as I mentioned, he was a he was a U.S. congressman, he was in the state legislature for four years. My mom was an activist before that and remains an act uh like the truest moral compass I've ever seen in my life, maybe except for my wife.

[35:18] Nik Walker: So I have people around me who give a shit as well.

[35:23] Kelly AuCoin: Yeah. And um I'm not one of those people that thinks actors know better than anybody else, but I I do think we're among the few people who are told that we shouldn't have a voice. And that always pisses me off. And especially since I I grew up in this shit. This was my lane. People tell me to stay in my lane. That was my lane before acting was ever my lane. So, you know, fuck off.

[35:48] Nik Walker: Uh apologies.

[35:49] Kelly AuCoin: I assume I can swear on this. I didn't ask you for it.

[35:51] Nik Walker: Fucking swear, please.

[35:52] Kelly AuCoin: Yeah, motherfucker.

[35:54] Kelly AuCoin: Um, and so it's just it's it's I and I'm also I have to say, I am lucky to be working on a show where they don't try to muzzle me.

[36:04] Nik Walker: Yep.

[36:04] Kelly AuCoin: I hate to use that word right now. People like Josh Hawley saying saying they're being muzzled. I love that Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz say that they're being muzzled and that Trump's being like everything, they're being muzzled on the front page of the New York Post.

[36:17] Kelly AuCoin: Right.

[36:18] Nik Walker: Like, yeah, okay.

[36:19] Kelly AuCoin: And Donald Trump in his last year, in his last days, was being muzzled when he could call a press conference any fucking time he wanted. Like that was, dude, I'm sorry to that was what I fucking hated more than it's like people were complaining like, oh my god, you took his Twitter away. Guys, he literally has a press room. Literally has a press room. Like, what are you talking about?

[36:39] Nik Walker: Yeah.

[36:40] Kelly AuCoin: He's the president of the United States. I’m sorry if I'm losing your viewership, but he was the worst president in the history of the United States and a seditionist who tried to overthrow the government in the election, but he still had the press room. Press corps wanting to hear what he had to say almost to a fault, not even almost to a fault sometimes.

[37:02] Nik Walker: Yes.

[37:02] Kelly AuCoin: Anyway, um, so I just I can't help it. I get into trouble, and I'm lucky that my the people who run Showtime and the people who run Billions don't seem to care. Or if they do care, they don't say anything. And we have a showrunner who is one of our showrunners is even more blatantly well more vociferous than I am. So I feel lucky.

[37:28] Nik Walker: Yeah, yeah.

[37:29] Kelly AuCoin: And but it's but it shows, and I think I mean if there's a theme of everything that you're talking about, you know, everything we talked about for the first 35 minutes is truly that idea of impact and that idea that yeah, you have a platform, you're gonna say something. You have the space to try things in a space, you're gonna try them. Like just the idea of doing things, whether it's in your own acting career or your social activism work. Um it's just you are I there is so much about how you have handled your career that I'm like, yo, that's the guy.

[38:03] Nik Walker: Um it's very nice.

[38:05] Kelly AuCoin: That's very nice. I know that we're 35 minutes in, we have to get to movies, but can I just ask you a question?

[38:09] Nik Walker: Please ask.

[38:10] Kelly AuCoin: Go for it and um so what is it like working on the coolest fucking theater piece of the last 50 years? What is it? What was that like? And you were you were with the two you toured and you were I was on Broadway too, yeah.

[38:26] Nik Walker: And you were on Broadway too. That's what I thought. For how long?

[38:29] Kelly AuCoin: Broadway was a two years.

[38:32] Nik Walker: Two years, and tour was two years, yeah.

[38:34] Kelly AuCoin: I so I joined right at the Tony, right? So it was literally Lynn was about to leave, Leslie was about to leave, and then go through the whole thing the whole thing, the whole rigmarole, man.

[38:44] Nik Walker: That's I mean, that's amazing.

[38:46] Kelly AuCoin: I um I met Leslie.

[38:48] Nik Walker: Yep.

[38:49] Kelly AuCoin: We were doing um a TV show, just like we're both guest stars, and I had seen him do oh shoot, what was that show on Broadway, the musical based on the Steve Martin movie? Oh my god, Leap of Faith.

[39:00] Nik Walker: Leave a Faith.

[39:02] Kelly AuCoin: I thought because I had worked at La Jolla Playhouse and I knew the director. Um and I thought Chris Ashley.

[39:06] Nik Walker: Yeah, I love Chris Ashley.

[39:10] Kelly AuCoin: He's fantastic. And we bonded over that. I was like, I just saw you six months ago, and you were fantastic. And I thought there was a lot of fun stuff in the show. It wasn't perfect, but I thought there was a lot of good stuff in the show. And he was brilliant. I was and my wife and I were like, that guy's a star.

[39:26] Nik Walker: Yeah.

[39:26] Kelly AuCoin: And um, and it was fun to be across the desk from him. And so we bonded over knowing Chris, we bonded over that. And then I happened to write him an email or whatever it was where we exchanged, kind of I think maybe it was through Facebook, and I just said, Hey, I know it's a long shot, but do you have and this is literally right before the review came out, yeah, the Times review that said about Hamilton, yes, it is that good. That was the first paragraph.

[39:53] Nik Walker: Yes, it was.

[39:53] Kelly AuCoin: I wrote and said, any chance getting house seats, obviously pay for we'll pay for them, but just just curious to know ignore us if you're getting too many offers. And he wrote back like that day and said, actually, yeah, it's expensive, but it's worth it if you want to come. And so we did.

[40:09] Nik Walker: We got to see that was about a week before I asked him about a week before we got the tickets.

[40:13] Kelly AuCoin: Yeah, the review came out, and everyone went even more nuts, and we got to go see it, and it were good seats, you know. And I felt so fucking lucky because I'm sure that even then he was getting inundated.

[40:24] Nik Walker: Yeah.

[40:25] Kelly AuCoin: Um, and I wanted to go back and see it again. I wanted to see you.

[40:31] Nik Walker: Yeah man but you couldn't get tickets.

[40:33] Kelly AuCoin: It was a hot ticket.

[40:35] Nik Walker: It was a hot ticket of a hot ticket fun being your best friend though because like I got to see it four times maybe too many times.

[40:41] Kelly AuCoin: You have just every time something like that.

[40:44] Nik Walker: Well because it because he'd be flying around the country and every now and then I'd be like well I'm gonna go visit him in Seattle. I'm gonna go to Denver like just because why not? Good excuse I can see Hamilton again.

[40:55] Kelly AuCoin: Um hate you hit your guts.

[40:57] Nik Walker: So it just became this kind of casual thing you know like great seats every time because they're like the cast member seats like kind of middle up the row and and uh and then I go you know meet up afterwards all the fans are trying you know at the door trying to get he had to like I remember pulling up out you were getting out of a show when I got into Seattle and I had to pull up around back to where the theater was and I saw I'm like looking for you and I see this guy in a giant hoodie.

[41:21] Kelly AuCoin: I hate you.

[41:21] Nik Walker: Completely covered trying to like a huge mob of people right nearby. It was like a movie. I try to like avoid the rabid fan base I'm like you motherfucker did you ever tape him did you ever film it snuck into the case there have absolutely I hate that shit.

[41:37] Kelly AuCoin: It's so but here's the thing I don't hate I don't hate it because it is very I I am in answer to your question Kelly it was to be a part of that show um and to be there at the time that I was there when when it truly was like you know after the review but right at the Tony's like this thing took off and the things that you're experiencing as a part of that as being a part of that show are unlike anything you've ever experienced ever anywhere.

[42:02] Nik Walker: And um, so that was that was insane in itself.

[42:07] Kelly AuCoin: And then to get Burr, um, and to kind of join that that little fraternity, that that little group chat, you know, and it and and and all the like I said, all the pressures that come with it because you are then, you know, it's my company, so I'm starting this company. You know, like Lynn and Tommy are very, very good bosses, but like they want you like you talk about sports metaphors, they are truly like Tommy is the king of like the this is the football team, and and Burr and Ham are the QBs, right? So like you, and it's not just about how you're as you know, it's not just about your work on stage, but it's like how are you helping create the community of this building, and how are you doing that?

[42:51] Nik Walker: And and so it it was it was the most work I've ever done, except for you know, most work I've ever done, but also the most I've ever gotten out of a job, and and changed my life, changed my entire career. Things doors have opened up now that I would have never been open five years ago.

[43:09] Kelly AuCoin: Um so that that part of it was insane.

[43:12] Nik Walker: But I I the one thing I will say is I have never been more tired at the end of the day than doing that show. That show takes it, that show kills you. That it really it it is a beast and a monster um to do.

[43:25] Kelly AuCoin: And and let's go ahead. When you were on uh on the road, um, did you have well I know on Broadway you had eight shows?

[43:33] Nik Walker: Yeah, but I'm curious I'm assuming you on Twitter. You talk about that four show weekend, five show weekend.

[43:37] Kelly AuCoin: So yeah, did you have double Wednesdays or did you have double Sundays?

[43:41] Nik Walker: Saturday Friday, Saturday, Saturday, Sunday, Sunday, five show weekend.

[43:46] Kelly AuCoin: Dude, by the end of it, we all there's pictures if you uh of us on on the interwebs. Uh we would take liquid ginseng, of course, for Sunday night. Because like there's actually, guys, I'm so serious. There's no way.

[44:00] Nik Walker: There's no way you're doing it.

[44:02] Kelly AuCoin: Like, I I would slip I'm the king of sleeping in my dressing room. Like, I deck out my dressing room. You put the put the couch in there, put the you know, the nice little lights so you can fall asleep.

[44:11] Nik Walker: Um, but I would I would go to sleep, and I also have these. Alex makes fun of me for these, but these they're they're called Normate. Have you ever heard of the Normatech boots, Kelly?

[44:19] Kelly AuCoin: Yeah, no, dude.

[44:21] Nik Walker: Okay, these sh I'm about to change your life, bro. These shits are the real thing. Alone. Alone. It's it's my I I heard about them because um uh Adrian Warren was using them over at Tina uh for Tina Tina Turner, and you know, obviously that show is literally all her legs.

[44:39] Kelly AuCoin: Um she is being incredible and and doing incredible things.

[44:43] Nik Walker: Um but they are these boots that are basically like compression boots, but they are it's like air pumped into them. So you are basically getting like all flushing out all the lactic acid and fluids that are that are cramping up your muscles.

[44:56] Kelly AuCoin: And you can sit in these things, and it's like I mean, you you come out with bionic legs, like it's so I would I use them at intermission and I'm using them uh the night after I'm done with the show because burr is all the trick bag of burr uh is it's all stairs and all jumps, right? And squats.

[45:13] Kelly AuCoin: So like you're just your your calves, your your uh quads, your hams are are are you have to take care of them. Um but these things save my life, bro. Save my life.

[45:25] Kelly AuCoin: I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you to text that to me.

[45:27] Nik Walker: I'm gonna text the link. But that but what you said, that that's so interesting too. Like I I I remember the show so vividly and and watching it when we um when it came out uh uh Disney had the whatever. It was great. It was great to see it.

[45:40] Kelly AuCoin: But we we actually didn't finish it because it was like, no, I want a lot.

[45:44] Nik Walker: Yeah, we wanted our memories of the live performance uh to be fresh. It was great, it's great for people who haven't seen it. I'm not and then that in a facetious way. Watch it. Everybody watch it.

[45:55] Kelly AuCoin: But it's still different.

[45:57] Nik Walker: Um but anyway. So my overall impression of that show, and I'm a theater guy, and I know this stuff, yeah, was that if you'd asked me, I would have been like, oh yeah, uh Burr is really still.

[46:09] Kelly AuCoin: Um but that's so not true.

[46:11] Nik Walker: Because now that you talk about the stairs, it's like, oh, he was always up and down. And there was you you were constantly in that sort of they call it athletic position, yeah, right? Like you're in ready athletic position, like you're about to play defense in basketball or something.

[46:24] Kelly AuCoin: Like there, there's you're dead, you're yeah, you were always in that sort of ready, ready to go state. And you don't even think about that, but that's part of the choreography.

[46:35] Nik Walker: But that's not obvious to the untrained eye.

[46:38] Kelly AuCoin: Fast. That's why I thought it would have been fun to play the king in that show because he comes on just a couple times. He's just like, here I am. Everybody laughs and loves it. He like immediately eats the audience up and then sits on stage for a couple minutes and then leaves.

[46:50] Nik Walker: And like I am not that. I'm not trying to put anyone's business out there, but here's what I will say it is the most coveted white man role on Broadway because it is not for for like the least effort, highest reward. A good, a good consistent six-figure, like great six-figure job for nine minutes.

[47:10] Kelly AuCoin: Like nine minutes, y'all.

[47:12] Nik Walker: It is out of control. And meanwhile, I'm sitting there like getting my getting my friggin' IT bands deep needled every fucking Wednesday.

[47:20] Kelly AuCoin: Yeah, but your legs are gonna look better than the kings at the end of the road.

[47:23] Nik Walker: Oh, dude, yeah. That's what we like. That's what we that's that was the goal.

[47:26] Kelly AuCoin: Um, but it's all about the leg.

[47:27] Nik Walker: It's all about those legs, but it's so you're you're so right, man. And it it really is this this thing of like you just really and again, I I hate when actors are you know, that like the thing of like, oh, what we do is so hard. It's not about that, right?

[47:37] Kelly AuCoin: But it is it is the realistic pragmatic thing of like, yeah, if you want to do this eight shows a week for two to four years, here's what has to happen that you so that you can sustain that.

[47:49] Nik Walker: And that's what that show was for me. Was just learning, like, oh, and also quite frankly, learning that I could do that, learning that I was capable of sustaining. Because I I didn't think I could do it. I was like, yo, I'm about to fall apart right now. This is gonna be terrible.

[48:01] Kelly AuCoin: Um, but but Lynn What was your what was your first contract?

[48:06] Nik Walker: Was it a year?

[48:06] Kelly AuCoin: It was yeah, the I was on a year. I mean, every contract that I had was a year.

[48:13] Kelly AuCoin: And they would they would, you know, they they kept I mean they kept me around. And like, and that was the thing too. I you have to understand, I would have I would have stayed till the end of time.

[48:22] Kelly AuCoin: The only thing that had me jump into Ain't You Proud, um, was quite frankly, I missed my wife. Like, I you know, being on the road was amazing, but I'm like, I just got married when I joined the show, and I haven't had but a year living with my wife as a married man. Um, you know, I mean, so like it was like, yeah, we I gotta get back, you know. So that was it. Yeah, but I would have done it forever, and they truly, like you said about Julius Caesar, this was easily the one, you know, the best theatrical experience we've ever had. Like truly a gift that keeps on giving. So, you know, I think you were pretty active at the side door, right? Like you'd be out there doing this every show.

[49:07] Nik Walker: Every night. I swear to God, every night. Every performance, and that's I and even so even when COVID hit, this is again this is like Kelly I'm just trying to make sure Oh you were still doing the show during uh during COVID I was doing so we we were doing Ain't You Proud. Yeah, we were doing Ain't Too Proud but even even when because they started cutting stage door like policy right you couldn't you as the virus got more and more into or let me say this as Donald Trump didn't take care of his country and the virus eked into the country more, you know, they were cutting stage door that you couldn't have people backstage but even then I my dressing room was right on 46 like literally you know lean out the window and I can see the crowd so I would just like pop in from there. Like I would figure up until the last one figure out a way to do it.

[49:52] Kelly AuCoin: That's amazing. That is amazing. I mean just parenthetically you were talking about how at Caesar Denzel was always uh thronged by his crowd one of the things I always admired about him was that he was out signing autographs for a minimum of 45 minutes after every performance. Yeah, not every day every performance so on double days he was out after the matinee and then he would nap and eat and then he would do another show and then he was out in the evening and um he someone was saying and he was what there was a day when he was just obviously tired and of course well why don't you do no he's he's like no I look I haven't done a show in X many years. These are the people who gave me the career I have um if they didn't give a shit I wouldn't have a career and this is like this is the first chance I've had they've had to interact with each other in I don't know, I've been making this up 25 years since Soldier's Play, I think. Um and um and so I'm gonna do it. And I just thought that was such that was so fucking cool. Um and I love that you did that too. I think that's great.

[51:06] Nik Walker: I think that's great. And again, I did it because of you, man. Like that's I think that's the whole thing. Like you you just never know who you're and you talk about impact. You never know who's out there, and that like truly, I would not be doing what I do had it not been for that moment. I it was it was such a defining moment of just like of just realizing that like people wanna when you do something like that, people want to connect, people want to know. And if you can if you can give them time, I'm not saying that like people who don't stage door bad people, they're not. Sure, of course. But like if you can give them that time, like give them that fucking time. They paid so much money to see you, you know.

[51:43] Kelly AuCoin: I'm curious, did you um uh uh and you can you can edit as much of this out as you want, you'll never offend me. Um uh but I am curious because um were you like me? Uh I I had no my mom sang, but never professionally, my dad was a politician, and there's a performative quality to that. Uh you're in front of people and everything, and you have to you have to s tell stories, you have to get your story, your message across. But I never had anybody in my family who was a professional performer. And so the very few times I interacted with people when I was growing up, um, even through high school, who who actually had made careers out of it, uh or at least could put me in touch with people who had careers of it, uh they they were incredibly formative and buoying. Uh, and I do think that because I had so few of those, that led to some of the audacity that I lacked early on that I had to uh I had to figure out how to uh cultivate, if that makes any sense.

[52:41] Nik Walker: Makes complete sense. Um and I'm wondering, so for you, did you have that in your in your family? Did you have was I'm not I'm not saying this about me specifically, but like were there were there things that happened to you as you were growing up that actually made you realize oh that's a path. That's a viable path. Because that would those were that was the sort of way of framing a life in theater or life and acting, and it was life in theater initially for me that I that's what I was aiming for. That that framed that as something that was possible for you.

[53:14] Kelly AuCoin: Dude, uh no, I I'm gonna I'm gonna even do you one better. I don't know if you know, Kelvin, we we get really real on this show. We talk about real shit all the time. Sweet. So this will be one of those times. Uh Alex, this might even have to be a two-parter, bro. I it's gonna absolutely have to be a two-parter. That's the point. I'm sorry. I just I talk no, it's perfect. No, more content for us. Exactly. You're you're literally scaring our butts. We don't have to do anything more. Um, so dude, you know what it was for me, um, there was three, I'd say there's three things that go into this. Number one, you're you know, no, no, nobody in my family was an entertainer. Um, my mother was a news anchor.

My mother was the she was the first black news anchor in New England, actually. Uh, and she was on BZ for 30 years, and then and then she went to Harvard Divinity became to become a preacher. Um, and what's funny is so she's a preacher now, her father was a preacher, his father was a preacher. So that's a long, like there's a long, long line of that. But so that in that sense, you know, people who know communication and know and know how to do that, but but nobody who's acting, nobody's performing. So that's on one prong.

[54:16] Kelly AuCoin: On the other prong, uh was a and again, I'm not saying anything nobody does know, but a stepfather who definitely had certain ideas, or an ex-stepfather should say, who had certain ideas about masculinity and what that looked like so not only do I not have anybody who's performer but I'm told that all the reading I do and all the all the writing I do are things that make me you know sorry if I'm not trying to offend anyone but a pussy right all these things that I'm being told this is not so I am at this point in my life thirsty to find people who do this who who are thinking as deeply and analytically about this as I am and are and making a career of it at 100% it is it is absolutely that for me and did and who did and did you find so how who did you find who the people early on that you found it was crazy dude uh my you know there was these two guys the first people that I ever wrote with were these two guys uh at my at my church uh who were trying to write a play about being a a young black man in in in the world and um and that that was a huge thing for me and then you have to also understand like because my mom worked the job she worked I was you know she she was coming home late at night my babysitters were movies so like and this is something that me and my wife and I think Alex too share like we grew up on these films.

[55:40] Nik Walker: So like I was I was very much the person who was watching Robin Hood Men in Tights over and over and over trying to figure out why that was funny. Like that was me as a kid and so it's so my heroes became those people on screen. And and also I I would say the other you know uh again these are not people I've met but like also was a huge Mark Twain fan. Um oh wow yeah huge. So like that, you know, looking back at that, like even sidebar when the when the tour came through uh Kansas City, I I took I kidnapped my my Lafayette Jefferson and my Mulligan Madison uh and took them to Hannibal because it's like to an hour and a half away, and Hannibal is Mark Twain's birthplace, and he based his town uh in in uh Tom Sawyer series off of Hannibal, Missouri. St. Petersburg is like street for street Hannibal, and they've preserved it as such.

[56:28] Kelly AuCoin: Um wow.

[56:33] Nik Walker: Oh no, it's I mean, you can literally see Tom Sawyer's house, Huck Finn's house, everybody there. They got the white picket fence, like it's all there. It's it's kind of insane. Um so did you were you able to be like, okay, that that has to be the white picket fancy that he tricked them into. I didn't have to do that. They have it, they have it marked out. Like they've literally preserved it. Like that's Becky Thatcher's house, that's where Judge Thatcher lived. Like, it's and and like even the cave, there's a whole story about the cave because like that kid the those kids in the 1800s were playing in these dark caves, y'all, and it was not safe, and and they shouldn't have been doing that. I don't know who allowed them to just like, oh yeah, let him go play in the cave. It was terrible.

[57:11] Kelly AuCoin: They didn't like kids back then.

[57:14] Nik Walker: They really know what I could do with one less kid.

[57:16] Kelly AuCoin: Fuck kids.

[57:17] Nik Walker: That's what they said.

[57:18] Kelly AuCoin: Fuck kids.

[57:20] Nik Walker: But like that was that was it for me. Those were the things that were keeping me going in these moments of trauma. And and I'll add the three the third prong is um, you know, I was growing up a young black kid in White Irish Boston. So like there was a lot of of kind of being pushed aside that that pushed me into a place where I was like I was looking for those people. And and so whenever I found someone with an artistic bent, I was just like a fucking vacuum. Like, give me everything you got. My my high school teachers um had a theater company in downtown Boston, and so I would go to see those shows. And there's like a fringe theater, but like truly some of the best theater I've ever seen. Like this little black box theater doing some like edgy stuff. But it was great. And they and it's still going. Twenty years later, that theater company is still going.

[58:07] Kelly AuCoin: Um what's the theater company?

[58:08] Nik Walker: Company One. Company One in Boston. And they and I've I've I truly like I you know donate to them every year. Like they they have been going strong for for a long time now. Um and they're they're they're uh based over at Boston Center uh the uh Boston Center for the Arts, that that whole plaza right on Tremont, if you know it.

[58:27] Kelly AuCoin: Um, I don't know Boston all that well, but um but that's I love that. I love that story and I love that you're still connected to it.

[58:34] Nik Walker: Oh yeah, man. So that's so that's it. You know, it's it really I think I think exactly like you're saying, when you know that this is what you want to do and there's a vacuum there for it, you you absolutely seek it out and you and you try to find it and you try to figure it out for yourself and um and that's what I did. That's I that's that's what I that's I mean, that's what this is. That's what that's literally what this this podcast is still doing that.

[59:01] Kelly AuCoin: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's slow the roll because we are clearly the ball is rolling right now. We are talking about ridiculous things. Uh, but you know, we you're getting to know Kelly, our amazing, amazing guest, and uh, you know, this has been wonderful. But I think we need to break here because otherwise we won't.

[59:17] Nik Walker: We won't ever break.

[59:18] Alex Smolowe: Alex, do you think we'd ever break if we didn't stop?

[59:19] Nik Walker: We won't ever stop.

[59:20] Alex Smolowe: We won't ever stop.

[59:21] Nik Walker: We don't stop.

[59:21] Alex Smolowe: You'll see next week we just keep going.

[59:23] Nik Walker: And if we had a choice, and I think if Kelly had a choice too, we'd still be there.

[59:28] Alex Smolowe: This is we this is weeks later, we'd still be on that call.

[59:31] Kelly AuCoin: In true WandaVision fashion, maybe we are still there.

[59:33] Nik Walker: Maybe this is happening as we speak if you yeah.

[59:37] Alex Smolowe: If you had WandaVision powers, if you could if you could cope with your trauma by enveloping everything around you in like uh in a fictional yeah idealized universe is this is this what it would be anyway yeah but we'd call it Deadwood so anyway uh you know so come back just cut it there just cut it there no but but I do want to say come back for more little justice part two of our of our talk with Dollar Bill part two coming soon doll y'all bye little just