This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Alex Smolowe: Hey Nick.

[0:01] Nik Walker: Hey Alex.

[0:02] Alex Smolowe: You know what I'm excited about?

[0:04] Nik Walker: Uh, I can guess, yeah.

[0:07] Alex Smolowe: What, well okay, what were you gonna guess?

[0:09] Nik Walker: Because, well, I can guess.

[0:10] Alex Smolowe: Will I guess?

[0:11] Nik Walker: No.

[0:12] Alex Smolowe: You know.

[0:12] Nik Walker: Don't come at me with your fucking eighth grade English semantics, you son of a bitch. I'm saying I'm excited about part two of the Greed movie. That's what I'm saying.

[0:21] Alex Smolowe: Oh yeah, that wasn't what I was thinking.

[0:25] Nik Walker: What were you thinking?

[0:27] Alex Smolowe: Uh, you'll never know.

[0:28] Nik Walker: Well, guys, we're back.

[0:29] Alex Smolowe: We're back.

[0:30] Nik Walker: We had a great conversation. First part of the conversation last week with Kelly. Talked about pretty much everything under the sun. And now we're gonna talk about even more. Honestly, like again, if you're expecting us to get right into the movie, sorry, like that's not gonna, like, you have to listen in for that movie because it happened.

[0:45] Alex Smolowe: It takes a while for us to realize that we're not talking about the movie.

[0:48] Nik Walker: But if you're here because you love Broadway, which a lot of you are, if you're here because you love acting, which a lot of you are, yes. Uh, then it doesn't really matter because you're getting gold here.

[1:00] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[1:01] Nik Walker: Get gold here. Alex, do you think that people are here because they love you?

[1:08] Alex Smolowe: Thanks.

[1:10] Nik Walker: Cut it right there. Little Justice.

[1:15] Alex Smolowe: Little Justice.

[1:18] Nik Walker: Little Justice.

[1:21] Alex Smolowe: Fuck yeah. It's interesting how many people, uh, your show's been going on for longer than this, but the pandemic pushed people into doing things that they wouldn't necessarily have done before. Like I started doing these IG Live interviews, and then from that I'm now doing an interview show with Dominique Wilkins.

[1:39] Nik Walker: Right?

[1:39] Alex Smolowe: The Dominant Ones.

[1:40] Nik Walker: Yeah.

[1:41] Alex Smolowe: Which is crazy. But what I loved about the IG Live thing, and I was pushed by someone who was saying, do it. And I was like, no, no one wants to hear what I have to say. And they're like, well, then no one will listen. Just do it. And, um, it didn't exactly fill the creative void, but it approximated. It filled what approximated the creativity, that void, you know. Um, and it felt like connection, and it's just like this feels like connection, and this is a, like you, I loved listening to a couple of the podcasts before, um, you know, a week ago after you asked me to do it. And, um, I love the one with your wife.

[2:20] Nik Walker: That's hilarious.

[2:21] Alex Smolowe: Oh, yeah.

[2:21] Nik Walker: Um, I love how much shit the Alex and she gave you.

[2:24] Alex Smolowe: Uh, loud.

[2:26] Nik Walker: Um, I do want to say one thing, um, about Men in Tights.

[2:30] Alex Smolowe: Please.

[2:30] Nik Walker: Men in Tights is not a very funny movie.

[2:32] Alex Smolowe: I, okay, Alex, now, now wait. Uh, well, I'll say this as an old person who grew up on the early Mel Brooks.

[2:41] Nik Walker: Yes.

[2:41] Alex Smolowe: And I will say the funniest thing about that movie is Dom DeLuise as the Godfather and the characters around him, and the guy who's like, I will take these cotton balls, I've put them in my hand. And DeLuise is like, oh, okay, do whatever you ever do, you know. The funniest part of the entire movie.

[2:58] Nik Walker: Sir, I'm gonna come back to you and I'll fight me. I'm gonna fight you on this. And Alex, please, please jump in because, uh, I need your help. I hate, I also hate how Alex is like literally just sitting here and like I know. I want to ask you about because Alex, you're a film editor. I want to ask about that too, because I find the editing process, I got to sit in some editing sessions.

[3:15] Nik Walker: No, we're good. I mean, I want to add, I got to sit in on some editing sessions and, uh, both like both like the dumping initial thing, it's like the, the editor goes the first take, like, what do I do with this? And then, um, and then some of the, uh, later sessions where they're getting stuff back from network, and I know that's TV and it's probably different, but, um, but I'm really curious about that too. And since we're now doing a two-parter, I feel like we can, we can indulge ourselves.

[3:48] Alex Smolowe: Otherwise, this is fun about being theater a lot and and not ever thinking I would do it. I never, you know, I think I wanted to be in movies when I was six, because who didn't, but like I never had aspirations to act, I did high school theater and all that. So it's, it is, I get a lot out of these conversations even though I'm not in that world.

[4:02] Nik Walker: Um, I love that. But yeah, editing's fun. I mean, I, the itch it scratches for me is like, it's a blend of creative and technical. Like I have kind of like a type A need to organize and like make systems more efficient, which like editing is great for in terms of like how much footage do you shoot and how do you organize it's all file types and hard drives and all this stuff, and then you just still it and then, and then you get into like the work of it creating something, you know, human and finding a story. Like, uh, most of the stuff I do is documentary, which I've found that I love over time just because it gives me a chance to like usually I'm doing the interviews that I'm editing than editing. So like I'll sit down and I'll talk to somebody and I can like pick their brain and guide conversation and then go home and like actually craft it into something.

[4:50] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, um, that's just exciting. But that's, but that's, if I might say that's, you know, not to don't sell yourself short, because that's what you, you know, you have written and directed two films, you, you also are working on a novel. Like you've done, like you are a storyteller, dude. And I think that's, yeah, it's, it's this creative world, you know. Like maybe I haven't been lucky enough to be, you know, on a Hamilton tour.

[5:11] Nik Walker: Shut up.

[5:13] Alex Smolowe: But has who have, like I, I think if you're this type of person, like no matter at what level you're doing it or how often you get to do it for money, like it's something you're always going to be doing, right? You're always gonna be creative. And if some, if, if some valve gets cut off that allows you to do it in one aspect, your nature is just gonna move you into another lane and you're gonna do it another way. So like, and this, this podcast is just one more representation of that. Like as soon as we got bored, the second we got bored, we're like, all right, let's make a podcast, let's talk about movies, like just to keep our interest up. That was back in freaking college too.

[5:44] Nik Walker: So look at that.

[5:46] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, look at us. I love, and that, yeah, and that's like an extension of the relationship you guys have had for years, right? Um, but I also love, I mean, I do love the fact that I, the further I got into TV, the more I realized that the Uber storyteller, and I don't mean the car share thing.

[6:08] Nik Walker: Nice, nice.

[6:09] Alex Smolowe: The Uber storyteller of, um, uh, of that medium and film is the editor.

[6:16] Nik Walker: Oh, absolutely.

[6:17] Alex Smolowe: And you know, we, we get to do whatever we want on stage for, we get to jump off the cliff and, and free fall for two, uh, 90 minutes to two and a half hours, three hours or whatever. Um, but you can take a, you could take a TV show, you could take a, you could take filmed content and turn it into something completely different than what it was. Or you can hone it to make it better what it was supposed to be, or closer to what it was supposed to be initially. You take, you tell the story more than any other element, any other part of that, uh, process, including the actors and the writers, and I find that fascinating.

[6:54] Nik Walker: Yeah, I mean film is such a collaborative process, right? Because the, the script is obviously a huge part of it. Like you can't have something without a story, without the dialogue, without the action. Like it's a lot of work goes into it. Um, but once you hand it off, there are things about character, and I'm sure you know, like playing a character over many seasons too, like things evolve. Like there's stuff you, you can't find on the page, right? And the final product is, is the script plus the performances plus the music plus everything. But all that stuff doesn't come together the way it's presented without the editor. Who's gonna decide it what which takes to use and the director has his insight, but like which takes to use, what the pacing is.

[7:32] Alex Smolowe: Um, and, and we did this in film school, I think, where we, you kind of look at slight changes in an edit and what it can do to the, like completely change the tone of what you're watching, how long a beat is. Um, and it becomes fascinating to watch just how much pacing matters, how much, um, you know, how long when, when you're cutting ver, uh, who you're cutting to, what you're cutting to. Um, it, it really makes a big difference. And, and they say, you know, the best editor is one you don't notice.

[8:03] Nik Walker: Right?

[8:03] Alex Smolowe: Yeah. Uh, so yeah. My favorite example of this is, uh, the simplest of my favorite is when they take sitcoms, three camera sitcoms with laugh tracks, and you just take the laugh track out.

[8:15] Nik Walker: Yep.

[8:15] Alex Smolowe: And it turns into, especially like Big Bang Theory or Friends, like shows that the jokes are not funny at all. They're creepy. Like the humor is unsettling, but the laugh track makes you think that what they're doing is funny. And as soon as you take it out, you realize, oh my god, like the combination of all these elements so informs what the audience is gonna feel.

[8:34] Nik Walker: It's so true.

[8:35] Alex Smolowe: That's a great, you gotta go to YouTube and just deep dive on, on sitcoms without laugh tracks. It's, it's terrifying.

[8:42] Nik Walker: That's a great point. I did that with, uh, Friends a long time ago, and I need to do more of it.

[8:46] Alex Smolowe: Yeah. Um, I, oh shoot, I had something I was gonna say.

[8:51] Nik Walker: Um, let it come back, let it echo through you.

[8:55] Alex Smolowe: It was so, it's echoing through me, but it's not up to my brain and mouth.

[9:00] Nik Walker: Well, I will, while you're thinking of it, I will say this. I will give you my, my two-second pitch for Robin Hood Men in Tights.

[9:06] Alex Smolowe: Okay, yeah, back to this.

[9:07] Nik Walker: Which is this nonsense, which is shut up, which is this. Uh, you, Dom DeLuise is obviously a legend, a comedy legend, and everything around him in that scene is hysterical. The Godfather satire is hysterical. I will also, however, point your attention to, uh, my former director, Mr. Roger Reese, as the Sheriff of Rottingham, because it is truly like if you, if you look at, if you look at the people he's in the scenes with, all right, and I say this as somebody who, you know, working Peter and the Starcatcher, um, you know, my second big show, and this is, did you ever see, did either of you ever see Peter and the Starcatcher at all?

[9:49] Alex Smolowe: I saw it, uh, at, uh, Second Stage or whatever the place that's gonna be.

[9:52] Nik Walker: Yeah, so, so Christian playing, playing Black Stash, it's, uh, Alex, it's basically the prequel to Peter Pan, um, but it's like crazy zany, insane comedy, but also just brilliant writing, Rick Ellis writing the script being amazing. Roger Reese and Alex Timbers directing this thing, you, you're watching Christian Borle, you're watching Matt Saldivar comes after him, you're watching all these people, and you realize that, oh, Rick wrote that for Roger. That is absolutely a Roger because that's who he is. It is that, that just that understanding of not even being the star of the show, but what it takes to be a comedy genius and know how to give it to your partner, how to give those moments. And I think of the scenes, uh, like with him and Richard Lewis where he's like, I dare to c to catch a king's d, like that whole sequence which is insane and his just navigation of that is, is on point. So I will say I don't know the movie is, let me tell you in terms of the Mel Brooks canon, but if I had to choose between that and High Anxiety, we're going High Anxiety every time.

[10:38] Alex Smolowe: Sure, but that performance to me is, I love it, I love it, I love it.

[11:04] Nik Walker: I have to go back to it, um, and because I do love, I love me some Roger Reese, yes. Um, and I have, I, I know, so the, the, the thing about that movie and about later Mel Brooks for me is that the pace seems to be off.

[11:04] Alex Smolowe: Agree, 100%.

[11:04] Nik Walker: And there's just something, and, and it's not slow or fast, it's not that because all a lot of his early movies had weird long takes that were just hilarious. There was something in the air, there was something that there was an energy that just worked and was anarchic and, and, um, and just fucking funny and, and just shocked you and, uh, and that, that was missing.

[11:51] Alex Smolowe: Yes.

[11:51] Nik Walker: But you're right, and, and I do say this to people all the time, it's like, all right, so in lesser holes, look for, um, look for the things that actually rise out, rise from that, and, and I should check out Roger Reese as well.

[12:04] Alex Smolowe: Definitely check, I mean check it, I just love him in that movie and I feel like he was able to do some things that like even with that structure which was not the best Mel Brooks structure at all, he f, he found ways of doing things and, and you know, I, I really just love, love that. But this is again, you know, uh, a, a perfect, a perfect not a perfect segue, but, but you know, we're talking about movies now which is again, guys, this is the point of the pot. Like I do want to make that clear an hour and eight minutes later we, I know, but we're doing two now we, now we're at two so this is, so we're actually, we're really short of, we don't have enough material, we gotta keep talking, we gotta keep going on this. We gotta keep going.

[12:04] Alex Smolowe: Wait, okay, but wait, wait, I know you want to segue, can I be, can I be a dick and just ask, take back, okay, so, or not ask, I was son, so Alex Timbers, yes, Alex and I did a reading together back when he was Alex Timbers all small letters before he was like all capital letters yes and then and I liked him and then we we made each other laugh and then he asked me to do something when he did he was directing a show for Director Fest.

[13:07] Kelly AuCoin: Yes, um, dire, uh, written by Elizabeth Merriweather, oh, who wrote uh New Girl. Um, and it was c, it was initially called The Night Michael Show Walter fingered me.

[13:23] Nik Walker: I fucking love it.

[13:24] Kelly AuCoin: I'm already in it. And um, then they were like, you can't call it that. Uh, yes, you can. It was called the sketch comedian.

[13:32] Nik Walker: Oh, god damn.

[13:33] Kelly AuCoin: And it was so, but I play, so there was some sort of situation that happened that was described, uh, in this play, and um, I did a one-act play with um, with Alex Timbers.

[13:44] Nik Walker: Yes.

[13:44] Kelly AuCoin: And it was, um, it was really, really, really fucking fun.

[13:49] Nik Walker: Yes.

[13:49] Kelly AuCoin: Uh, it was hard. It was, but it was fun, and I loved him, and I always did. I know people say this, but I always had the sense you are gonna, you're great.

[13:58] Nik Walker: Yes.

[13:58] Kelly AuCoin: You're great. You have so much patience as we tried to figure out the tone, and he's so, he's a master of tone.

[14:04] Nik Walker: Yes, he is.

[14:05] Kelly AuCoin: Um, he was rigorous and detail-oriented on a level that until we actually put it in front of the audience, or until we, it actually started working, I was annoyed by, and then was like, oh no, of course you have to be. Yes, this is great.

[14:18] Kelly AuCoin: I weirdly learned so much in that one little two-week period we rehearsed this play from Alex, and I am thrilled. I would love to work with him again at some point, but I'm thrilled that he has um, created such an amazing exp, uh, uh, career for himself.

[14:34] Nik Walker: And I didn't know you were in Peter in the start.

[14:36] Kelly AuCoin: Oh yeah. Peter, well, and here's what's crazy about that. So I had auditioned for Peter way back. It was one of those things where Alex really, he again, saving my butt.

[14:45] Kelly AuCoin: So I was, I, my first, my Broadway debut was Motown. Um, Motown the musical, which is a fucking trash fire, and that's said with all love to everyone who was in it, and y'all know if you were in it that it was a trash fire. So I'm not saying anything new.

[14:56] Kelly AuCoin: But, uh, so we do that show, and then, uh, I go off to Old Globe and I do uh, The Last Goodbye at the Old Globe. And The Last Goodbye was the text of Romeo and Juliet maxed, mashed up with Jeff Buckley music, and Alex was directing.

[15:14] Kelly AuCoin: And it was, it was to, I mean, truly like, I mean, it was, Alex is such a, I mean, I think truly he is such a film nut, and I know that because he was making fun. I think, uh, not Solaris, but what Alex, you'll know what is the George Clooney movie?

[15:27] Nik Walker: It's George Clooney, Sandra Bullock in space.

[15:30] Kelly AuCoin: Uh, Gravity?

[15:31] Nik Walker: Gravity.

[15:32] Kelly AuCoin: Oh, Gravity, Gravity had just come out, and we, I, uh, we were having huge debates about Gravity. Like we were having massive debates about that movie. Um, I'm not gonna say who's on the other side, but what I love.

[15:47] Kelly AuCoin: I love that movie too. Uh, what I was, what I will not gonna say who's on the side. I'm not gonna say who's on what side, but yeah, I loved it. Uh, but, but the, you know, I, he is, has such a cinematic eye, um, in two senses.

[15:56] Kelly AuCoin: And number one, the tangible. He, uh, it seems that he loves the tangible. He loves theater that really shows you. So like he brought in a fight director from London. Um, we, the, the violence in this show was spectacular, and I mean that in the most like homage way, like he knew how to direct that violence and how to light it and how to make it something like when Mercutio got, we were all fighting with like katanas and cleavers and crazy Mercutio gets stabbed, the blood like spurts like yay high, like it's insane.

[16:36] Kelly AuCoin: Um, but I say all that to also say that to your point, Alex, is I think that just like a film director, delegation is his strength, and he knows that he can, he has his vision, but if he puts the right people in the room and pushes them this way and pushes them that way, you're gonna come up with something that is unlike anything you've ever seen.

[16:57] Kelly AuCoin: And that I think I, I saw him do it in The Last Goodbye. You see it in Star Catcher, you see it in Beetlejuice, you see it in Moulin Rouge, just like somebody who has such grand vision that requires so many components of collaboration and is able to bring them back um, into a funneled thing.

[17:15] Kelly AuCoin: So Alec, yeah, he, he, I love him, and he's, he's just, he's, he's just a good guy, also. Like he's, he's, he is really good guy.

[17:24] Nik Walker: Um, here's a question.

[17:25] Kelly AuCoin: Yeah, he's one of the kindest, uh, uh, uh, people I've worked with in the theater, and, uh, I hear from everyone I hear as he's, his star has risen, he's maintained that. Oh, sorry, you had a question.

[17:36] Nik Walker: Well, here's my question, and this is actually, we can keep this in the thing, I don't care, but I, I, I have been sitting and, uh, I have to go to the bathroom really bad, and there are no lights on in my room right now because the darkness has fallen and I haven't had a chance to get up.

[17:50] Kelly AuCoin: You want to pause for a second?

[17:51] Nik Walker: Okay, can we take two minutes?

[17:52] Kelly AuCoin: Yeah, I'll go P2.

[17:53] Nik Walker: Yeah, Alex, keep recording and we'll come back and just, we'll keep it rolling, you guys do what you gotta do.

[17:58] Kelly AuCoin: All right, we'll be back two minutes.

[17:59] Nik Walker: Bye.

[18:03] Kelly AuCoin: Am I back? Can you hear me?

[18:04] Nik Walker: Oh, we can hear you, buddy.

[18:05] Kelly AuCoin: You're great.

[18:06] Nik Walker: Sounding good, you guys relieved and ready for round two.

[18:09] Kelly AuCoin: My, my lights are on, you know.

[18:11] Nik Walker: I think we, we probably should have just like ended the episode there.

[18:15] Kelly AuCoin: No natural break point uncut back in.

[18:18] Nik Walker: We should just release like a fully, a fully director's cut version.

[18:23] Kelly AuCoin: I mean, it'll probably end that, it'll probably just end up being that.

[18:26] Nik Walker: It'll probably be beautiful.

[18:27] Kelly AuCoin: Just like this is too much to edit, so you know, all or nothing.

[18:30] Nik Walker: I'll just leave it alone.

[18:33] Kelly AuCoin: Take it as it is, and that's what you get.

[18:35] Nik Walker: Yeah, I'm sorry, I talk too much.

[18:37] Kelly AuCoin: No, you don't.

[18:38] Nik Walker: Uh, no, this is great.

[18:39] Kelly AuCoin: No, so I'm looking at, go ahead, Alex.

[18:42] Nik Walker: No, no, no, I was gonna say, because we're, we're a film podcast, but we're on the Broadway Podcast Network. So like any time we get a really good theater conversation going, you know it's, it's gonna be scoring points our audience.

[18:51] Kelly AuCoin: That's, that's a good point. I, I mean, of course now part of me is like, oh wow. Is, uh, people gonna be like, Denzel Washington was a jerk to Kelly AuCoin?

[19:00] Nik Walker: No, no, no, no, no, they won't.

[19:02] Kelly AuCoin: Because he wasn't. It was just, it was such a great lesson. Like I always talk about, and I, I, I, I think even then, that was a long time ago now. I always talked about um, people playing ball, you know, like literally that phrase, and I know I, I say it a lot, but it's, it, it, it speaks to so much. It explains so much to me. Like this wasn't working because they weren't playing ball. They were playing ball. That was great.

[19:28] Kelly AuCoin: Um, and then you can obviously get into more details, but he was just asking me to play ball, and I was initially intimidated. And then I fortunately had a, a guy who decided to be a mentor and say, fucking play ball. It was great.

[19:45] Nik Walker: Yeah, it's, it's like people of at his level coming back to theater with, with the name that he has and, and all of that. Like he could have just walked in and, and not, and just run through the motions and, and done it.

[19:55] Kelly AuCoin: Totally.

[19:55] Nik Walker: It's nice to hear that in with the work in the craft and the actual like getting down when he didn't have to, that he still cared that passionately to like engage everybody around him and expect the best. And like it's, yeah, yeah.

[20:07] Kelly AuCoin: Yeah, he set the tone. I mean, it's funny, he wasn't like he, he protected himself too. He was, he, he took his moments to be, um, uh, to get his rest, which is great. And some of the rest of us who didn't have as much weight as he did, um, might be, you know, in the green room being like, eh, whatever. Uh, but, but he was, he was part of the ensemble and, and he led the ensemble, and it was, um, it was an extraordinary experience.

[20:36] Nik Walker: Yeah, and we also had Column Fior.

[20:38] Kelly AuCoin: Well, I suppose you literally had like the all-star like him and we, William, uh, William Sadler, Bill Sadler, we had, uh, Jack Willis.

[20:48] Nik Walker: Oh my god.

[20:49] Kelly AuCoin: Um, we had, we had some great, we had Tamara Tooney.

[20:53] Nik Walker: Oh my god, yes, you did.

[20:54] Kelly AuCoin: Jessica Hecht. We had some amazing people and, and, and folks who have gone on to took great things out since then. Um, John, uh, John Douglas Thompson, yep, who, uh, was called by the New York Times one of the premier um, uh, classical actors of, uh, uh, of the last 10 years.

[21:15] Nik Walker: Um, he did a series of Othello's.

[21:17] Kelly AuCoin: Oh no, I, I saw his Othello and it was out of the way.

[21:20] Nik Walker: Did you see it up at, uh, the Berkshire Shakespeare and Company or went down in New York?

[21:23] Kelly AuCoin: I saw it, I think it was Shape.

[21:25] Nik Walker: Well, no, because I saw it when it was out at, it was in the Berkshire, so where the hell was that?

[21:30] Kelly AuCoin: Okay, that was up, yeah.

[21:31] Nik Walker: I think you saw it at Shakespeare and Company, Shakespeare and Atlantic, Massachusetts.

[21:34] Kelly AuCoin: Yeah.

[21:34] Nik Walker: Yep, that's right. Um, and, and that was, and, and the weird, the, the crazy thing was that got so much press, but no one got to see it. Very few people got to see it. And then he came back to, he did another performance of it, a production of it here in New York.

[21:48] Kelly AuCoin: Um, and I thought it was the same show that moved, but it wasn't. It was a different production.

[21:54] Nik Walker: Oh wow.

[21:56] Kelly AuCoin: And he got just such, you couldn't get tickets. It was, it was crazy.

[22:02] Nik Walker: Yeah.

[22:02] Kelly AuCoin: He's a great guy, he's a fantastic actor. He's bigger than life, and the way he attacks Shakespeare is bigger than life.

[22:09] Nik Walker: And so it was so perfect for Othello. And then he did The Hairy Ape, I think.

[22:14] Kelly AuCoin: Yeah, wasn't that?

[22:15] Nik Walker: Yeah.

[22:15] Kelly AuCoin: Like, and that was a show, like an impossible show to make work. Willem Dafoe had just done it, and apparently it wasn't, it was fine.

[22:24] Nik Walker: I don't know.

[22:24] Kelly AuCoin: I, I didn't see it, so I'm making shit up now.

[22:27] Nik Walker: But JDT, man.

[22:29] Kelly AuCoin: No, he's, he's in cra, I mean, because he was in, I was so pissed because wasn't he just in the, might be mixed. No, he was in, was he in Nathan Lane's Iceman or Denzel Washington's Iceman? Because he was in one of them.

[22:41] Nik Walker: That's a very good question. I wish I, I'm not remembering which one.

[22:43] Kelly AuCoin: If only we had some sort of computer.

[22:47] Nik Walker: I know, some sort of thing, some sort of technology.

[22:49] Kelly AuCoin: I think I could look that up.

[22:50] Nik Walker: Um, I'm looking this up.

[22:51] Kelly AuCoin: Yeah, I, yeah, I don't remember. But I, you're right, he was. He was one of the, um, the denizens of the bar.

[22:57] Nik Walker: He was Nathan Lane's.

[22:58] Kelly AuCoin: It was Nathan Lane's, and I wish, I wish I could have seen him do that. Um, did you, did either of you see him do um, Satchmo?

[23:07] Nik Walker: No.

[23:08] Kelly AuCoin: Um, Louis Armstrong in a one-man show about, uh, it was extraordinarily good.

[23:16] Nik Walker: Of course it was extraordinary.

[23:19] Kelly AuCoin: The guy is, um, he came to acting late too.

[23:22] Nik Walker: Are you serious?

[23:25] Kelly AuCoin: Yeah, and he came to acting late. I'm, I'm gonna say this and I'm, I'm just pulling a year out of my ass, but, um, I, I like maybe at 30. Um, and everybody should look it up because I could be completely wrong. But he came to acting late, and he just has an innate ability to connect with an audience at a character, and to get into a majesty of a character and a, and a, and just, and not shy away from the foibles and the, the negatives.

[24:00] Nik Walker: It just, it's, it's not the negatives.

[24:02] Kelly AuCoin: That's the thing. He doesn't look at them as negatives, yeah.

[24:05] Nik Walker: But, um, he's just, he is one of the extraordinary, he, I look, uh, I hate saying this about friends, and I don't hate saying that's not what it's awkward saying this about people you know and who are your friends, but he truly is one of the great theater actors of our time.

[24:22] Kelly AuCoin: Yes, he is.

[24:23] Nik Walker: And there was a whole article actually about him, um, somebody who did one of the Jason Bourne movies. It wasn't Greengrass, I don't think it was some, what, maybe the next guy, maybe it was Greengrass, um, who saw him on stage and was like, I'm casting you in this.

[24:39] Kelly AuCoin: And the whole article was about both, it was about a number of things. It was about his theater career and the Othello. It was about getting cast in the Bourne movies and it not working. And him talking about how I just couldn't get it. And the director talking about how that was an odd thing that it didn't work. And about the Satchmo that was happening.

[25:03] Kelly AuCoin: I might be conflating things, but I think the article was about all of it. And I thought that was a really fascinating and, um, and to his credit, um, a wonderfully vulnerable thing to share with people to be able to say I couldn't figure that out. I, I know that I'm good in theater. I couldn't figure out a way to make it work on screen. He has subsequently made it work. I've seen him in the, and stuff, and he's, because there's nothing that JDT can't do.

[25:35] Kelly AuCoin: But I just thought it was an extraordinary piece that worked because he participated in it without ego, you know?

[25:48] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[25:48] Kelly AuCoin: And I think that's a sort of shocking thing to say about an actor.

[25:54] Alex Smolowe: About any of us, but uh but no.

[25:56] Kelly AuCoin: That's the selfless actor.

[25:58] Alex Smolowe: I think that's exactly and when somebody knows how to I the thing I remember about his performance is you know, is I describe it as playing positive action. It's I love the actors who play to win and who are and who are coming in there knowing like it's not about it's not about the emotion, right? Everybody's like, oh my god, how do you cry on stage or how do you cry on set? It's not about that. It's I'm gonna fight for my character so hard that tears naturally come. And that's what I remember specifically about his Othello, was somebody who just had such a command of this character and knew how to almost confuse himself to a point where then these explosions are organic and they're coming because it's a man who doesn't know what to believe and it's that much passion behind it. Um truly, yeah.

[26:44] Kelly AuCoin: I love that's a great way to look at it. That's I had not thought of it in those terms, but yeah, it's fascinating.

[26:50] Alex Smolowe: No, he's the man, he's the man. Um let's let's I mean, look, we could talk again, we can talk about this shit all day, and I will talk about it all day, and I'll text you after and we'll tell we'll do it.

[26:59] Kelly AuCoin: Absolutely, absolutely. Like this is I do wanna it's you've got to talk about some move like a movie, a movie.

[27:06] Alex Smolowe: Okay, wait. Before we do that, I want to say one more thing. Alex, Alex, Alex, Alex.

[27:13] Kelly AuCoin: Um about uh editing. One of the things that I found so fascinating about um my long slow journey about uh towards learning more about other elements of this world than acting. Um there was a director who told me that oh yeah, no, the uh it was fun working on the show. All we did, the first pass we did at editing was cut half the pause between every single line that you guys had.

[27:48] Alex Smolowe: Jesus.

[27:57] Kelly AuCoin: Isn't that fucking cool?

[27:59] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, I mean it it should they they know exactly the pain.

[28:02] Kelly AuCoin: And that's what I'm talking about, about pace and tone of the that's right. Speaking to what you said.

[28:06] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, yeah. It just moves fast, and it like I think people get this expectation too of acting, like you watch a good scene in film or TV and you think you're watching the actors play it in real time right you think it's playing out exactly at that pace at that tone um and it especially early on like the first time you're kind of on a set and watching this happen you see how many times it happens and how many ways that it happens and where you end up after the edit is not at all where you start like I'm sure TV gets to a point where things roll along enough that like you're doing two three takes and you're out and you know kind of the the timbre of what it is um but I I love that and it it makes me really appreciate movies we were talking uh last time two two shows ago about uh Ghost Story um the David Lowry movie uh you know, the kind of film where where there's the confidence to just set a camera down and let the actors do it in real time and trust that the audience is gonna care because like usually it's so far in the opposite direction.

[28:07] Kelly AuCoin: Yeah no I yeah that's interesting too and and I've oh god what it what is uh what's the name of the movie and I can't even think of the actors' names to actually what's the plot what's the plot uh it was that bad abscam in um in the 70s and it was um uh uh uh not Bradley Whitford it was the other Bradley Brad Cooper Bradley Cooper was in it and um American Hustle.

[28:07] Alex Smolowe: American Hustle okay so American Hustle to me is an example of that. Like it just and I I think I am in the deep, deep minority. Because most people think that's brilliant. I was just like, what is happening? It's all so odd. It's all such a everything feels forced to me. Do you guys have uh thoughts about that since we're talking about movies?

[30:09] Kelly AuCoin: Yeah.

[30:09] Alex Smolowe: This has nothing to do with the theme, but I mean, do you have any thoughts about that movie?

[30:12] Kelly AuCoin: Theme, what's that?

[30:13] Alex Smolowe: I haven't seen it.

[30:14] Kelly AuCoin: I have thoughts about David O'Russell for sure.

[30:17] Alex Smolowe: Um, I'm pretty sure it was David O. Russell, right?

[30:18] Kelly AuCoin: Yeah, yes, it was.

[30:19] Alex Smolowe: I think so.

[30:19] Kelly AuCoin: Yes, it was. Um, I he's definitely one of those directors who needs to be the director. You watch some of his uh secret behind the scenes filmed rants, and it's pretty telling about how he runs a set and how he how he builds a movie, and I'm sure that that extends to the editing booth. Um because like it it's you get into the editing room and like the the directors, if he's breathing over your shoulder, if he's if he's you know tyrannical in what he's doing, then it can it can so easily go it can go over the top, or it can it can decisions can get made that maybe aren't really the right decisions, right? You could think all the way from the very beginning like this scene should feel this way, like this dialogue should cut this fast.

And it works in your head, and then you get there and you see it, it's like, oh that's no, and you have to have the you have to have the bravery to to change course after actually seeing what your talk is gonna be. Um for some for some reason I feel like David O'Russell is one of the guys who doesn't really know how to do that.

[31:17] Kelly AuCoin: It's it did it did feel to me with American Hustle that we were talking, you know, it it was it definitely had that disjointed element that you're talking about, and and that and and again, we can only speak to how we interact with this movie, right? Not we're not saying that the movie's a bad movie. If you like the movie, good for you. But like, yeah, I definitely felt that as opposed to so you know, I always think of like the yin to his yang for me is like a Paul Thomas Anderson, right? Because that's someone who can sit on these shots, who who understand like, yes, do his movies sometimes run a little long? Sure, but the whole point of it is that meditative reflective quality, right? There will be blood is about pulling you into kind of a meditative almost not a meditative world, but surely uh an all-encompassing world. Same with Phantom Threads, same with even even something like inherent vice is all about that. So his pacing is on point.

[32:07] Alex Smolowe: Then compare that to a David O'Russell, who I I mean I l I am probably the only one who still loves I Heart Huckabies.

[32:14] Kelly AuCoin: I I do love that movie.

[32:16] Alex Smolowe: Yeah. I love that, right? And that that works, but like that is few and I I always I don't ever feel like like the guiding hand. I don't I I don't know. It's it's like it's like a style over substance thing, right?

[32:28] Kelly AuCoin: Exactly right. If you're if you're gonna commit to uh something stylized, then the audience is gonna need to trust that there's something to get out of it, right? That there's a a purpose to it, that there's a reason that there's some kind of metaphor or subtext at play that that has guided the director to make this decision, as opposed to just like, yeah, this is me. Um yeah, there was something about American Hustle that felt it it felt insular.

[32:59] Alex Smolowe: It felt like an inside joke.

[33:00] Kelly AuCoin: Yes.

[33:01] Alex Smolowe: It felt like we all really like each other and we all find ourselves deeply amusing.

[33:09] Kelly AuCoin: Yes.

[33:09] Alex Smolowe: And I didn't I was not invited along for the ride.

[33:13] Kelly AuCoin: Yep, exact and and I hope he's not listening to this. If he's listening to this.

[33:17] Alex Smolowe: We love you.

[33:18] Kelly AuCoin: What I mean is we all think you're a genius.

[33:23] Alex Smolowe: No, but I mean he is. He's very good at what he does.

[33:25] Kelly AuCoin: He's so good. You know, who are we to be sitting here talking about about it?

[33:30] Alex Smolowe: Right, but like and that's what made this movie su such an interesting uh case for me, because it was so in the circles in which, the critical circles in which it was um accepted as really good, it was like this is a fucking brilliant movie. And I just didn't understand that.

[33:49] Kelly AuCoin: I get that um I get that. Anyway, I don't know why I'm going there. Why did I go there?

[33:54] Alex Smolowe: That's a really so maybe you went there because American Hustle is a movie that falls into our theme.

[34:00] Kelly AuCoin: Hey, you know what I mean?

[34:01] Alex Smolowe: Oh, yeah. Look at that.

[34:01] Kelly AuCoin: Look at that.

[34:03] Alex Smolowe: Segue King.

[34:06] Kelly AuCoin: Segway King, guys. We've never had the guest segue before.

[34:09] Alex Smolowe: But usually it's a war of who can come up with the the cleverest segue.

[34:14] Kelly AuCoin: But we did it today. Today he did it, and that's magical, and we love that.

[34:18] Alex Smolowe: But the segu the the theme for today is in fact the greed movie.

[34:22] Kelly AuCoin: That's right, that's what we put out, and and and that's what we want to talk about today. And and and you know, we've all selected these films that to us remind us of the greed movie. I'm pretty sure, Alex, that that you are gonna hate my choice.

[34:34] Alex Smolowe: Um I guarantee it.

[34:36] Kelly AuCoin: I I'm pretty sure you're not gonna like it. But but I but you know, I think I I think let's start as we always do. What what defines the greed movie? Obviously, this is a perfectly ambiguous setup so that we can all have a different POV on it, but but what is a greed movie to you, Alex? Let's let's start with you. What what does that mean?

[34:53] Alex Smolowe: Um yeah, I thought about it uh for a while. Um, and I I think what it boils down to uh is is greed. A greed movie is a character movie, first and foremost, right? It it's about somebody, it's about why somebody wants something. Because what what is a story besides desire, right? It's somebody wants something and they try to get it. Somebody needs something, they try to get it. Um greed is the excess of want and desi. It's it's it's desire overriding um reality. You know, it's some some fixation becomes more important than doing good, being good, living right. Um, and it doesn't necessarily need to be money, but most of it revolves around money, around power, around kind of the material world, because it's, you know, tale as old as time, somebody, you know, getting corrupted by by all of that vice. Um so yeah, it's it's about fixation, I think.

[35:55] Kelly AuCoin: I love that. I love that. Now now do we feel that within that green movie, like what is we talk about, we talk about yes, that that that kind of excessive reaching for the for the stars. What then becomes is the is this a person that we're supposed to be rooting for? Is my question.

[36:13] Alex Smolowe: Uh I th I think the movies can really tend to, even if it's someone you're rooting for, the character is gonna let you down somehow. Right? Because there's that inevitable they've gone too far. In order for them to learn their lesson, they have to take it too far. Um, there's sort of that that built in story arc of somebody who who is greedy or gets greedy. Um whether you whether the whole point is to hate them from the beginning and just watch what they're doing, or watch them fall into a hole and lead themselves down this path.

[36:44] Kelly AuCoin: Yes.

[36:44] Alex Smolowe: Um, you know, but I I th I think there does have to be the the arc is kind of built in, I guess. I don't know. What do you think. What do you think, Kelly?

[36:56] Kelly AuCoin: I feel like anything I say is gonna give away what I uh in the movie that I chose. But I it it's what I love is the idea that the greed movie. What I looked for in the greed movie was something that was that was slightly off, but it wasn't um obvious. Yes.

[37:17] Alex Smolowe: Um I don't think I actually found that, but um but I do think it's subverted slightly.

[37:25] Kelly AuCoin: So I love that. I love that. So there, there it is.

[37:29] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, that's great. Yeah, well, I I tried to find way I because my my ink my uh my inclination when I'm picking a movie for this is is always to try to find something that subverts a little bit, right? That like addresses the topic but in a way you wouldn't expect. Sometimes I can find one, sometimes I can't. I I couldn't find one for this, but it seems like it should really exist, and I'm sure it doesn't. Maybe I just need it to spend a longer time. Because like greed, I want to find like an emotional greed movie, right? I want to find somebody dealing with the consequences of like wanting too much out of a relationship or out of some emotional commitment. And I'm I know it's it's out there.

[38:05] Kelly AuCoin: There’s something about Mary should have been our choice.

[38:08] Alex Smolowe: I think agree, hard agree on that one.

[38:10] Kelly AuCoin: Yeah, you know what I mean.

[38:11] Alex Smolowe: Let's talk about that.

[38:12] Kelly AuCoin: That would have been good.

[38:13] Alex Smolowe: I I actually I I will say, guys, uh not to not to gild the lily here, but I think I might have found it.

[38:21] Kelly AuCoin: I think you found it.

[38:22] Kelly AuCoin: I think I found the subversive greed movie. I think I did. I really think I did. And uh and you guys again, I'm positive that you guys are both gonna be like, Nick, get the fuck out of here. That is not a movie about greed. However, I think it is. I think that if you really break it down for what it is, I think it is. Do you want if you can if you can pick Inglorious Bastards as a new job movie like you did last week, then do whatever you want to do? Is a new job movie. They are all on a new job. The job is Nazi hunters, okay? That's their job. I cannot wait to listen to that episode. Oh my god. It's so ridiculous. Alright, so here's I'm gonna set this up for you guys. I'm gonna set this up.

And you guys, I mean, you're gonna get it in two seconds. Okay, wait, remind me of the rules. So here's so the there the only rule is I'm so basically we're giving, we're gonna give each other the first two to five minutes of this movie. Like just describing it, right? We're we're describing it to each other. And as soon as if you know it, guess it. That's it. Like, there's no prize, like, we don't give out prizes here. We don't have that kind of money. Do you know what I mean? But like, when when you know what the movie is, which both of you will know probably within five seconds of me talking about it, uh, just say it. Say what you think it is. That's that's the only rule, right? Alex, am I missing anything? Is it was I wrong?

[39:46] Alex Smolowe: No, that's that's pretty much it. That's pretty much all we do here.

[39:51] Kelly AuCoin: So I'm gonna say Little Justice. It's real simple format, but yields massive results. Um all right, let me see if I can describe this. So we open on uh, you know, obviously uh some some logos and such, but once we get past that, we're fading in on what looks like almost like a Grand Canyon-esque desert. And uh we see uh, you know, we hear shouting. Um somebody sounds like an adult trying to organize some maybe some some some kids, maybe some young men. And this, you know, shot of kind of these grand canyon-esque rock formations pans down to uh uh we see these kind of figures amongst the rocks. And uh, you know, there's there's they're all dressed in variations of green and yellow. Uh once we get closer, we're gonna see that these are Boy Scout uniforms. And uh there is a troop leader organizing these scouts.

[40:47] Alex Smolowe: Meatballs.

[40:58] Kelly AuCoin: Shut your mouth. It is not meatballs. It's a solid guess. It was so solid. It is so solid, but it's not meatballs. Okay, I'll keep it. Go on, but you guys again, once you get it, you're gonna know it. One young man uh and his I will say his pleasantly plump friend uh are sneaking off. And uh, you know, the the the pleasantly plump friend is like, hey, we gotta be careful. And he's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like you you stick with him, you know. If you stick with him if you want, I'm gonna go find some real cool stuff. They go into the caves by themselves. They're wandering these caves into the caves in these rock formations, and they hear digging. They hear digging.

[41:42] Kelly AuCoin: So uh they go and they're they're searching, they're searching. Oh, oh, Indy. Come on, baby, there we go. It's Indiana Jones and the last crucifixion. Hey, baby. Boom, baby. 14th century Ming Dynasty. Oh, it breaks the heart. And the head. You hit the dead. I'll never forgive myself. Don't worry. I'm fine. Thank God. It's a fake. So you can tell with a cross section. Now, here's here's what I here's what I'm saying. This is why I think it's the subversive choice, because obviously, Indie is not greed at all. Indy is all about it belongs in the museum. That is the line that is said over and over in this film. However, he is in a world that is about greed. Yeah. Right? That's that's literally the world that he is that he's thrown himself into.

And and and that's why, you know, the best lines, the quest for the grail is about, you mean like it it is it's about the divine within us, right? That's that's everything that he's interacting with this choice between self-gratification and the longer road, the penitent man must pass. You know what I mean?

[43:05] Alex Smolowe: The last of three brothers who swore an oath to find the grave and to guard it.

[43:13] Kelly AuCoin: 700 years ago. Time to wait. I was chosen because I was the bravest, the most worthy. The honor was mine until another came to challenge me to single combat. That is I I was just thinking because I was like, okay, yeah, there's definitely movies about greed, especially, you know, given given Kelly, your presence on the show. I could easily go for something that that is about, you know, the the financial market or or something like that, which is a still an amazing choice. But for me, I was like, okay, I think that this actually might be the way to go. I think it's I think it's just a great interaction with greed and coming out ungreedy, not greedy. Um, until we can go ahead. And saving himself, actually.

In uh the third one, saving himself. Because this was the beginning of the third one, wasn't it? It's the beginning of the third one. That's right. Right, yeah. Um saving himself because he was not willing to reach for the greed. Whereas the woman Elsa, the Nazi sympathizer, or Elsa shockingly, uh was uh was not willing to not reach for it. And that's that's what I love is is that just that dichotomy of people who truly like like you know, the people who purport themselves to be, and again, we're not trying to break down Indiana Jones as like the the philosophical fable of our time. But what I am saying is that, you know, I think the beautiful thing with with Elsa with um Donovan, these villainous characters is that at first they present to be people who are in the search for the grail as educators, as people who are interested in this archaeologically, um you know, just as a piece of of history to be protected and contained, and then you realize that those very people are the people who actually are in it for the greed and are in it for themselves and to build, you know, and and Dunovan doesn't even care about the implications that it's going to have for the Nazis, he's just like pay me my money. Do you know what I mean? Like he doesn't, you know, I mean, it really is this kind of crazy thing for him, this kind of you know, uh war profiteer uh for him.

[45:25] Kelly AuCoin: So it it it's it's very I just I just love that. I love that like to to win the movie, Indy and and Henry Jones and Salah and everybody had to make a choice against greed. Um I mean, do you do you think that there's an element of the Indiana Jones character that is like like, yes, he's he's you know, Robin Hood in a way where he's trying to protect these things and he's coming from an academic background. It seems noble, sort of what he's doing, but he also lives a life of of like he brings it on himself, all the trouble that he gets into, right? And he drags people into it with him.

[45:56] Alex Smolowe: Like he's addicted to adventure, and he's addicted, like he he there is an element of greed in that he will never stop until he's you know reclaimed every treasure in the world. It's like not even about the treasure, it's about himself, which is greed.

[46:12] Kelly AuCoin: Well, also there's an element of um like what are the museums that uh you are putting in museum? Right. We never ask. We're gonna be able to do that. Are these these artifacts being put in? And they are probably British or American institutions, and that that's not where they this belongs in a museum. Well, does it belong in your museum? Yep. Yep. Right. He's going to all these different countries and taking things and and bringing them back to England. And that's I think, but I think that's actually what's kind of again a subtle message in this movie, but that's kind of cool, is both him and his father, right? Both of these men who spend their lives trying to bring these things out, they in the end, they walk away with nothing.

They don't get the grail, they don't get any proof that any of that ever happened, right? It's it's they wide off into the sunset because the whole thing was like, no, we actually have to let it go. We we ourselves can't be colonizers. We can't keep coming in here and taking these things. Um we have to let it go. And and that is I guess is that the end of all three of them?

[47:12] Alex Smolowe: Yes, and yeah, and then we get to probably the biggest the biggest meditation on greed of all, which is the fourth one. Uh not though not for reason.

[47:18] Kelly AuCoin: But wait, before you go there, that's but that's really interesting because you're right. I said that Indy Indy made the choice to not do the same thing else it did.

[47:30] Alex Smolowe: Yes.

[47:31] Kelly AuCoin: Right. But it was but it wasn't a given. It was his father that was like, let it go. Let it go. He actually gets them to that point and then he is refused by the circumstance or by someone else the ability to take this thing home.

[47:44] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[47:44] Kelly AuCoin: And the outcome's always good. Like Temple of Doom, he frees slaves, basically.

[47:48] Alex Smolowe: Yep.

[47:48] Kelly AuCoin: Right. These these children and families that have been enslaved, like that's a great outcome, but he walks away with nothing. And you you could tell he's kind of kind of bummed about it.

[47:57] Alex Smolowe: Always.

[47:57] Kelly AuCoin: Always. You know, and that's I think I think that is I think that is exactly on the money, is just that choice, you know, this person who does have like it's not saying if we're to extrapolate the moral of Indiana Jones, it's not saying that it's not obsession is not a wonderful thing, but that you you do have to come to a point where humanity and life and and your father, do you mean like choosing those things core values over the the intrinsically self-gratifying values?

[48:27] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[48:28] Kelly AuCoin: Um I think if they turned Indiana Jones into like a really good show, you could explore all that stuff. I can see it being like a getting really diving into who that guy is because it's it's pretty fascinating.

[48:40] Alex Smolowe: Oh, it's awesome.

[48:40] Kelly AuCoin: Yeah, it's awesome. I mean, and I will say, you know, I think, and I I mean, he you know, he laid the groundwork anytime you have a Tomb Raider movie of any kind, right? Not I'm not saying the Tomb Raider French, I'm saying like even the mummy, right? you're you're borrowing from that idea. And I and and and I just love that. I love that that is how they interact with it, and it's a very it's just a very cool way to give another layer to your character, you know. Just like, yeah, he's he's actually he he doesn't get what he goes after all the time, but he does greater good.

[49:09] Alex Smolowe: And right, and that's always awesome.

[49:11] Kelly AuCoin: So that's that's my greed movie, y'all, is Indiana Jones.

[49:14] Alex Smolowe: Okay, I like it.

[49:16] Kelly AuCoin: Thank you.

[49:16] Alex Smolowe: I like it.

[49:17] Kelly AuCoin: C, I did it. I did it.

[49:19] Alex Smolowe: Lovely.

[49:21] Kelly AuCoin: Alex, Alex, good.

[49:22] Alex Smolowe: Alright, my turn. Um, yeah. So from from the beginning of us doing this podcast this way, picking topics, I knew that one day we'd do a greed movie, and I knew exactly what my choice would be. And I'm I didn't, I'm not gonna go with it because we've A, we've we've talked about it before. And B I know exactly Kel, you might have chosen it. I I so I'm not gonna talk about it yet. I'll wait until we've gotten gotten through them all. But it is to me the quintessential greed movie, uh hands down. And I've always said that like like it's been so instructional for me, uh, just from like a storytelling standpoint in terms of using theme to drive character. Um but I chose something else. I looked for a while, I was trying to be subversive. Uh mine is not subversive at all, so I figured I'd I'd stick in the realm.

[50:08] Kelly AuCoin: Um but it it is a little bit that the characters in it are not it's an interesting balance of greed, so we'll see.

[50:15] Alex Smolowe: So uh funny you guys should bring up Mark Twain in this episode, actually, because the movie opens on a Mark Twain quote.

[50:22] Kelly AuCoin: Oh, good for you!

[50:24] Alex Smolowe: I know what it is. It says it ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble, it's what you know for sure that just ain't so.

[50:32] Kelly AuCoin: I just want to make sure Steve Corell.

[50:35] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[50:35] Kelly AuCoin: And uh and Ryan Gosling.

[50:37] Alex Smolowe: Ryan Gosling. What?

[50:39] Kelly AuCoin: Uh and uh uh uh oh well uh what's what's my boy's name from uh from uh a succession?

[50:45] Alex Smolowe: Uh everybody Hamish Link Ladder, everyone.

[50:47] Kelly AuCoin: Uh we're talking the movie, of course, is the big short.

[50:50] Alex Smolowe: The big short is the film.

[50:52] Kelly AuCoin: Great.

[50:53] Alex Smolowe: Institutions treat these CDOs like they're as solid as treasury bonds, and they're going to zero.

[50:59] Kelly AuCoin: No, I can't be right. There are 500 billion in housing bonds, so last year alone, the ratings agencies, the banks, the fucking government are saying they're all asleep at the wheel.

[51:10] Kelly AuCoin: My whole department's long on this stuff. They call me Chicken Little. They call me Bubble Boy. A's. Zero. B's zero. Double B's. Zero. Triple Bs. Zero. And then that happens. What is that? That's America's housing market. The big short. Great movie. I love it. Should have won the Oscar that year.

[51:43] Alex Smolowe: Agree. Absolutely.

[51:45] Kelly AuCoin: And he tried to do it again with um what was the movie about Dick Cheney?

[51:51] Alex Smolowe: Oh, Vice.

[51:52] Kelly AuCoin: Vice. Vice. In terms of tone, in terms of editing. I mean, we're talking about editing. This movie is maybe like the best edited movie of the last decade.

[52:05] Alex Smolowe: I agree. In a lot of ways.

[52:10] Kelly AuCoin: I mean, this is just a story about the housing market crash and the elements that led into it. Um, how you make it interesting, how you make it relatable, how you make it uh informational, like instructional, right? Because there's a lot of elements of the housing crash that people don't understand and banking and how it all works. And I think the industry kind of uh it operates the way it does based on the fact that a lot of people just don't understand it, um, and it's intentionally vague. And so to have a movie be about that and be mile a minute, loving every second, the performance like you're laughing your ass off, you're terrified because that all this stuff happened and is real. It's breaking the fourth wall all over the place. Um, just in from a construction standpoint, this thing is incredible.

[52:57] Kelly AuCoin: Collateralized debt obligation. It's important to understand because it's what allowed a housing crisis to become a nationwide economic disaster. Here's world famous chef, Anthony Bourdain to explain. Okay, I'm a chef on a Sunday afternoon sitting a menu at a big restaurant. I ordered my fish on Friday, which is the mortgage bond that Michael Clary shorted. But some of the fresh fish doesn't sell. I don't know why. Maybe it just came out, Halibut has the intelligence of a dolphin. So what am I gonna do? So all this unsold fish, which is the triple B level of the bond and the garbage, and take the loss. No way. Being the crafty and morally onerous chef that I am, whatever crappy levels of the bond I don't sell, I throw into a seafood stew.

See, it's not old fish, it's a whole new thing. And the best part is they're eating three-day old halibut. That is the CDO. But so the big short, like I said, it is a movie about uh about what the elements that led up to the 2008 housing market crash and the guys who identified that it was gonna happen and worked to profit off of it. And you watch it, it's different teams of people uh, you know, coming at it from different angles, all kind of seeing it in their own time and making different moves in regards to it, and some of them identifying and some of them not sort of the deep moralistic problem of profiting off of impending doom.

[54:23] Kelly AuCoin: Which I think is, you know, it's a movie about the greed of everybody else, and then questioning how far do you need to go like what is your responsibility uh when you understand that other people are being greedy in a way that's gonna affect everybody else. And I don't know, you know, it doesn't really it it doesn't ever really answer it. It kind of lets you make up your own mind.

[54:47] Alex Smolowe: No, I think.

[54:49] Kelly AuCoin: It really I love, I mean, so Adam McKay, I think is just the master right now of the essay film, and the idea that you start with a thesis, right? I mean, truly these movies are essays. They are both this and vice are about topics, about you know, vice being about power, uh, you know, this being about greed, and you give us characters, but the point of the movie is not the characters, the point of the movie is the topic, is the theme, and you are laying it out in a way where it will be instructional to us. We will learn something quite blatantly by watching. Um, but you fill it with characters who we do end up liking, and you also, you know, uh I love the cut my um Anthony the Anthony Bourdain cutaway where he breaks down what goes into uh you know a fish too.

Like that is such a great way to break down that concept, like, oh my god, and now we understand why like and and and what I think is so fascinating about what I love about that movie in particular, um, is that the concepts themselves, these things that seem so crazy, actually are very simple concepts. Like it's actually not hard to understand once you get through the jargon and the bullshit that they put in the way um to stop you from it. So I I I yeah, I can't I could I could go on for days about that movie. Good, good fucking choice.

[56:05] Alex Smolowe: Yeah. Great fucking choice. Great choice.

[56:09] Kelly AuCoin: And yeah, it's one of those movies too that you you can kind of watch it again and again and again. And like you never really like maybe you understand the concepts a little better each time, but like not really. Like beginning to end, you just you just have fun on the ride. Like it's so rare to find a movie that you just enjoy watching from beginning to end. You're gonna laugh at the same jokes, you're gonna be interested in the same things. Um, you're gonna feel the same stuff. I mean, it's yeah, I love it. I remember uh one of the things that stuck with me, you know, they had the like the ticker at the end about where are all these people now. Um I'm not remembering his name. Um, but he's he was the crazy investor. He also played Batman. Uh what's his name? What's that actor's name?

[56:54] Alex Smolowe: Christian Bale.

[56:55] Kelly AuCoin: Thank you. Christian Bale. And they talked about how all of his money is in water. Yeah, yes. He's looking at water. And I remember first thinking we're fucked. Nice. Because someone's gonna own the water. And then I was also like, I gotta call my broker. Oh fuck, I gotta get a broker. Yep. That whole thing.

[57:19] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, it's interesting. Uh I don't know if you guys pay attention to the news, um, but the stock market right now, there's there's a crazy thing going on that actually the guy that Christian Bale's character is based on is a real guy who predicted the housing crash. Um, he uh had invested last year or two years ago, he bought a big chunk of GameStop. The um was like going out of business and he invested huge into it for some reason, and it kicked off this chain of events that got to the internet, and in the last like week or two, as a joke, as a meme, there's like a Reddit, a subreddit of investors um who are all about like YOLO, like, you know, uh, ever since ever since Robin Hood, the trading app added options like calls and puts and stuff.

You can you could do big trade stuff on this little phone app. Um, so this huge community decided they were gonna ramp up. There's a lot of people betting that GameStop, which is like going out of business because nobody buys these things physically anymore, the stores are shutting down. Um, there's so many people that are betting against it failing. This community decided to just rally together and the price has gone from like four dollars a share to like three hundred and fifty dollars a share in the matter of like two weeks.

[58:27] Kelly AuCoin: Is that what this is? I I keep seeing the headlines and I'm like, I have no idea.

[58:31] Alex Smolowe: Insane thing, and I and I found today when I googled when I Googled this guy because I was watching the movie, uh, he's the guy he he kind of kicked off the whole conversation and now he's turned on it and said it's super dangerous and and like it's gonna implode everything. But it's just this this fascinating like cultural experiment where like people don't understand how the banking system works or investment works, how Wall Street does what they do, and and they rely on people not knowing that. So to have a community now that can communicate and operate in a way that says like, well, we can we can really flip this over. And if if if Reddit can can destroy Wall Street, then it kind of deserves to be destroyed.

[59:08] Kelly AuCoin: Yeah. So we'll we'll see what happens. But it's so all these all these firms that are holding on to, you know, had all these things. If they sell now, they take a huge loss. So they're waiting, they keep paying into it, waiting for this stock to crash back so they can make their money. Uh, and it may never come. They may like lose everything.

[59:25] Alex Smolowe: Good lord.

[59:26] Kelly AuCoin: That'm guessing 85% of the people listening to this right now.

[59:38] Alex Smolowe: Which is weird given that I'm not sure about finance.

[59:40] Kelly AuCoin: Most people do not know. I mean, I only know the words, I don't even know what calls and puts are. I just know what the articles I'm reading. I don't even know what that meant. You said calls and puts, and I was like, I should do it with this. I I don't even know Dollar Bill would know. I don't know.

[59:54] Alex Smolowe: Good lord.

[59:55] Kelly AuCoin: But it's but you know what, but that I think that's and that's the other good thing about big short, I will say, is that just that promotion of financial literacy, because that I think is is what we need. I mean, that's what we need, especially going forward, is just knowing what it means um to know what money is like what is it, what is it?

[1:00:13] Alex Smolowe: Yeah. Our schools should be teaching us that basic financial literacy. They should be teaching us civics so we all know um how our government works, and there are vested interests that do not want either of those things.

[1:00:28] Kelly AuCoin: Oh, absolutely. Vested interests, vested and and have been that and again, this is longer conversation that we will have. But but this is but that I think that's the other thing we need to be educated on is that these systems were built exactly as they are. They are functioning exactly as they were meant to, and and that's that's the point. That's what we need to change. And the problem and the problem. You know, so so yeah, man. 100%.

[1:00:50] Alex Smolowe: Um, yeah. So so big short and Indiana Jones, and now, you know, the final the the final the best for last.

[1:00:59] Kelly AuCoin: Okay, so if I'm if I'm guessing, if I'm get gathering the way I need to do this, uh I'm gonna describe some of the first images. There is a gentleman looking into directly at me, at us into the camera. And it's very dark. And he's saying, listen very carefully to what I say. And he describes a series of events. And his background is dark. It gets lighter as we go along. And we see that there are cinder blocks behind him.

[1:01:39] Alex Smolowe: Yes.

[1:01:39] Alex Smolowe: Yep.

[1:01:39] Kelly AuCoin: Ooh, you're dead. And then all of a sudden, we get to Coney Island. Yes. And we see a car driving. Yes. And all it's stopping periodically along the water in New York. We see the background, we see uh various bridges. I'm assuming that bridge is the uh that looks like Brooklyn. Might be Manhattan Bridge.

[1:02:04] Kelly AuCoin: A van picking people up. And then all of a sudden, we get to a series of shots in uh in downtown Manhattan in uh the Wall Street area. And we get to a bank building. Is it a bank?

[1:02:19] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, it is, and there's a giant American flag.

[1:02:22] Kelly AuCoin: Yes, it is. Is there can I and then ask you a question? Is there a man inside of this building? Who maybe who might stay there? An inside man, as it were?

[1:02:34] Alex Smolowe: Uh there might be, yes.

[1:02:36] Kelly AuCoin: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Oh shit, made us. Christmas came early for you this year. Bank robbery, hostage situation, 20 exchange place. Grossman's on vacation, you're up. What about the uh the madrigata thing, the check cashing thing? I thought I was in a doghouse. I just threw you a bone. As far as I'm concerned, you still work here, but if you don't think you're ready, he's ready. Oh, good, good. Good. I'm giving you a break here. Don't make me look like a fool.

[1:03:05] Alex Smolowe: I am so happy. Because I number one, I think that this movie's come up in another. Was it what uh we do, I think with Pete Chapman?

[1:03:13] Kelly AuCoin: With Pete Chapman. I think what was the theme.

[1:03:16] Alex Smolowe: Heist film.

[1:03:16] Kelly AuCoin: Heist film. Oh, god dare it. No, but dude, that's we we swear to God, because I love it because it just shows how multifaceted these movies are. Inside man. So talk to us about this choice. Talks about what what I thought the fact that uh it's a Denzel watching a movie would be kind of fun for because of our connection. Um it's when I first saw it, I was like, I'm not sure what I think of that movie. And I what but I watched it the next day, and I decided it was one of the best heist movies I've ever seen.

[1:03:45] Alex Smolowe: Yes.

[1:03:46] Kelly AuCoin: And it fucks with your with your loyalties. It's not overly cool, it's not overly anything. And um Chu Tell uh Jewfor I've only seen in one other movie.

[1:03:59] Kelly AuCoin: Um it was uh uh dirty uh uh um I can't remember, but it was about uh the hospitals and and and um it was fantastic, and I was just like, oh, it's that guy again, he's amazing.

[1:04:12] Kelly AuCoin: The connection between him and um and Denzel was so true, and the way they dealt with the suspects who were probably also um most of them were uh uh were innocent victims, was so not precious and was like nobody was nobody was overly great.

[1:04:41] Kelly AuCoin: Well, he secures his position against the physical layout, he'll only dump one us. Show starts, he'll call us, trust me. I've seen him work. They'll call Keith. You get that for me? I guess it is, isn't it? So one thing I learned from Grossman is these guys don't have much respect for what we do.

[1:04:55] Alex Smolowe: How do you mean?

[1:04:56] Kelly AuCoin: Well, for them, it's a tactical situation. Us being here means there's a mental side to it that they don't get. Told you but handle this shit. Keep waiting for someone higher up on the food chain to show up and say, Here's what we do.

[1:05:09] Alex Smolowe: What happened at the hospital?

[1:05:10] Kelly AuCoin: Guy shot himself, Johnny's girlfriend. Thank you. And nobody was completely terrible except for the the bank, uh, you know, the the Nazi sympathizer bank guy. The the person uh Clive Owen, who was um the bank robber and was ruthless, who you were set up to think was the villain, actually was trying to fuck with the guy who was the Nazi sympathizer.

[1:05:38] Alex Smolowe: Yes.

[1:05:38] Kelly AuCoin: You know, who was the um the greedy one? They all were. Um Denzel, even at a certain point, his character, yeah. Um is like, all right, I'm gonna stop looking into this because I got detective first grade. Jody Foster is like, yeah, I know. I'm I'm working with a guy who was a Nazi Nazi sympathizer, but he pays well. Um, you know, like the it it it's it just fucks with all. I love a heist movie. I love a classic heist movie, but I love a movie that then sort of fucks with it. Like what who are we who are the people we're actually rooting for? Um it it challenged me, and I loved it, and I love the actors, and I love the connection between them.

[1:06:20] Kelly AuCoin: Uh there were a couple of when we were doing Caesar, we all knew he was doing that next. Um Spike Lee came to opening night, and I remember talking to him afterwards, and he mispronounced my name, and I had just auditioned for him, and so I even said something like, No, it's old coin. And and he was like, Oh, sorry, I got it. I was like, Yeah, well, you know, make sure when you look at the tape, you I don't know. I said something stupid. But he laughed.

[1:06:48] Kelly AuCoin: I don't know. The the movie holds a a uh sop spot in my heart because of that. But I also do think it was a really surprising um take on a genre film, and you know, I love Spike. I I think he he he always has something interesting to say, even if it's like a even if it's a failed take, it's it's it's it's much more interesting than a lot of people's safe uh successes. Does that make sense?

[1:07:16] Alex Smolowe: 100%.

[1:07:18] Kelly AuCoin: Oh, that's and that's actually one of the things that I think I would think we were saying last time that I love about Spike uh and his work, I you know, is is just I think actually his what he does, with the exception of Malcolm X, which is po I mean, possibly outside of Citizen Kane, one of the greatest American films ever made. Um yeah, it's it truly is that that rags to I mean rags to riches in a very different way, but just that that ascent story that you know that we all need to see, but in but also in the context of the civil rights movement, all that stuff.

[1:07:46] Kelly AuCoin: But one of the things I think outside of that, I love Spike when he is playing with genre because all of a sudden all the things that he wants to say sociopolitically get contained in in a formulaic structure. So rather than it it being everywhere, it's these little moments that just hit you that much sharper. And I and I felt it with Inside Man. I felt I certainly felt it with the five bloods, which is another heist movie. You know what I mean? Like it it just it just it ekes out instead of instead of smacks you in the with the baseball bat, which is great sometimes, but like I love that. I love that. I think it's marvelous what he does.

[1:08:21] Kelly AuCoin: I mean, in terms of a greed movie, too. I think what what I love to see, because greed is really about intention, right? It's about it's about people setting their sights on something and wanting it more than anything, and and and what do they want and why do they want it. Um and what I love about this movie is like good guy or bad, however you're set up as a good guy or bad guy, because like you were saying, Clive Owen is supposed to be the bad guy. He's robbing a bank, he's really kind of serious and scary and and all that. Um to get to the end and have it have everybody be right. Yeah, just feels good, right? That like Christopher Plummer, yeah.

[1:09:54] Kelly AuCoin: Well, except except that not right to have everybody except like you know the banker owner who who didn't have anything in play anyway, right? He wasn't trying, he just assumed the world was gonna bow to him uh and that everything was okay. Like he never he never put himself forward in any way, he never tried worked against anything. Um exposed. Um it's it's nice to see that nobody is really nobody's punished, everybody gets what they came for, and you can still forget about it. And the interesting thing, uh just at the moment when late in the movie, I was like, wow, Clive Owen and his team, they didn't do this for profit at all. It was just about exposing this guy, and then you're like, oh, they have the diamonds.

[1:09:54] Kelly AuCoin: Everybody wins. Yeah, fucking bro. That's that is the definition of everybody wins when the when the Nazi gets robbed, but everybody else wins. I call that a draw.

[1:10:03] Kelly AuCoin: Mr. Fraser, I have spent my whole life serving humanity. You can ask anyone who knows me. They'll vouch for me. And for the things that I've done. You think they'll vouch for you after I find out the truth about this ring. I don't think so. Oh, by the way, that thing you said about us being New York's finists. I want you to know we really appreciate that.

[1:10:27] Kelly AuCoin: How gracious. Let's go. I'm gonna follow that ring. Um good draw.

[1:10:33] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, man. Well, no, Kelly, you you uh uh as we said when we started this, you were just such a fucking gem. And uh, you know, this this two-part, possibly even three-part. I don't know. It's gonna be this. I don't know where I'm gonna cut it in the middle. Like, we're gonna figure it out. We're gonna put in so many little little bits of jobs. It's gonna be great. But like, but it's just been such a pleasure hanging with you, man. And and and we can't wait till you're back on set. We can't wait till you're back doing what you do. And and and are so and please I mean, what do you want to plug? I mean, obviously, uh, you know, you're your amazing dominant one uh podcast. Uh, but is anything else? Anything else you want to throw out there?

[1:11:09] Kelly AuCoin: I mean, that's gonna be fun. Um, I think we're gonna drop hopefully in in February. Uh the fact that I'm I'm doing a talk show co-hosting with Dominique Wilkins, who was one of my heroes when I was growing up, is amazing. We have a good time. Um, I mean, I it's it's just great. It's great to talk to you. It's great to uh chat with you guys. I'm gonna give you verbal um uh uh uh confirmation that you can cut anything that I've said, you can put this on the air. Uh but this is great, and thank you for indulging me. I realize I I talk a lot, so um uh I thank you for uh whatever. This is great. This is just fun conversation.

[1:11:50] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, do you have any idea uh getting down to business uh when billions might be back on the air?

[1:11:56] Kelly AuCoin: No, I don't exactly, but I know that we are we are we are definitely um uh trending towards getting back to shoot in March. I mean not March, uh in spring. Hopefully March. March would be great, but uh in spring.

[1:12:10] Alex Smolowe: Lovely.

[1:12:11] Kelly AuCoin: Um and then we are gonna finish season five and immediately go into shooting season six. So I will say that we w there there's a good chance that we will at least catch up a little bit uh on the back end. It's great. Um I'm excited to see. I it's gonna be hard to top uh attempted chicken genocide, I think. I'm excited to see where it goes.

[1:12:32] Kelly AuCoin: We will be found too. And I will s I will close out by saying I actually during recording this, I I received an email from from Asia uh just just randomly.

[1:12:41] Alex Smolowe: Oh wow, are you guys buddies?

[1:12:43] Kelly AuCoin: Do we so did I not tell you about so we did our first professional job together.

[1:12:48] Alex Smolowe: That's so cool.

[1:12:49] Kelly AuCoin: Hangar theater in Ithaca. Yeah, yeah. In fact, I'm pretty sure I punched her in the face on accident during Lobby Bohem. It's a whole thing or them in the face. I'm so sorry, them in the face. And and I I have to because it's it sh I what I love about Asia and and what what they've been able to do is really bring a spotlight to to their community and and and do it in a way that that is having such great impact. Um and it it was uh it's just been a it's just been a privilege to kind of watch them like rise and do their thing.

[1:13:23] Alex Smolowe: Agreed.

[1:13:24] Kelly AuCoin: You know what I mean?

[1:13:25] Alex Smolowe: Agreed.

[1:13:25] Kelly AuCoin: Like um Asia's a wonderful actor and their uh the the the their activism is inspiring and um um and their patience is uh like job. Yes and uh and I I I I love I love working the with them and and uh write back um I don't know right back that that Kelly says hi I'm gonna do that I'm going to do that um but Kelly you're the best thank you thank you thank you guys too yeah man this is such a blast you guys are awesome I love your podcast it's it's it's really fun you thank you thank you boom look at that look at that ending and and here we are recording another ending in the future another ending for our wonderful talk with the with the wonderful Kelly that was an amazing conversation you know and guys we just want to remind you that this is again as we said in in part one of this greed movie episodes uh this is the this is the end but it's not the end it's just a rebrand this is the end so what what happens Alice what happens from here what happens from here so we have to take a couple weeks because you're you're so bad with technology you're so inept that in order for us to move in order for us to transition into uh a reality where we have video yeah in addition to this audio it's gonna it's literally gonna take us a month just to teach you how to use a camera.

[1:14:50] Alex Smolowe: It took them a month to teach me how to type you know what I mean and that that was embarrassing enough so now we get that now we gotta put a camera in there and we're going away uh we're gonna launch a website we're gonna uh set up camera stuff and edit we'll have a YouTube channel we'll have all all the things that you know and love will be back better better than ever uh back better to make sure that you don't fuck it up maybe maybe do we will we even have a new name, Alex?

[1:15:17] Alex Smolowe: It's very possible.

[1:15:20] Kelly AuCoin: Oh shit.

[1:15:21] Alex Smolowe: Like not something totally different from Little Justice, but like maybe like a little like it will be almost like you know how in the sequels they do like like the first movie is called The Crudes, and the second movie's called The Crudes, The Journey Home, or some bullshit. That's what this is gonna be.

[1:15:32] Kelly AuCoin: Or we could go Jurassic Park style, like instead of Little Justice and a new name after it, it could be a new name Little Justice, you know.

[1:15:41] Alex Smolowe: Can I ask you this Justice, Little Justice?

[1:15:43] Kelly AuCoin: Yeah.

[1:15:44] Alex Smolowe: Oh, I love that. If this is Jurassic Lost World Jurassic Park, which one of us is uh Ian Malcolm and which one of us is uh Sarah Harding.

[1:15:55] Kelly AuCoin: Uh you could I know because you wanna be Ian Malcolm, you can be Ian Malcolm.

[1:16:01] Alex Smolowe: I'm I'm the little girl in the very beginning who runs off the beach and gets eaten by the little campies, scampies, whatever they're called.

[1:16:08] Kelly AuCoin: I was actually gonna give you Vince Vaughn, but you can be the little girl.

[1:16:12] Alex Smolowe: Either way, you're good.

[1:16:14] Kelly AuCoin: No, I want Vince Vaughn. I want Vince Vaughn.

[1:16:15] Alex Smolowe: Everyone wants Vince Vaughn.

[1:16:18] Kelly AuCoin: All right, guys. Well, look, here's the deal. Go listen, you have 30 some odd episodes to listen to while we do a little house cleaning, and we'll be back in a month with the new Little Justice.

[1:16:19] Alex Smolowe: Bye.

[1:16:19] Kelly AuCoin: Little Justice.

[1:16:31] Alex Smolowe: Little Justice.

[1:16:37] Kelly AuCoin: Little Justin.

[1:16:41] Alex Smolowe: Fuck yeah.