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[0:00] Nik Walker: Hey, Alex.

[0:00] Alex Smolowe: Hey, what's up, Nik?

[0:01] Nik Walker: Hey, we're back for part two.

[0:03] Alex Smolowe: We are back.

[0:04] Nik Walker: Back for part two.

[0:05] Alex Smolowe: Before we dive in.

[0:06] Nik Walker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[0:07] Alex Smolowe: Before we dive into stage to screen play, question for you.

[0:11] Nik Walker: So you're coming out to LA soon.

[0:13] Alex Smolowe: I will be out on the West Coast.

[0:15] Nik Walker: That is correct.

[0:16] Alex Smolowe: You will be out on the West Coast to be with your wife who's attending school in San Diego.

[0:22] Nik Walker: Yes.

[0:22] Alex Smolowe: Now, you are aware.

[0:24] Nik Walker: Yeah.

[0:25] Alex Smolowe: That San Diego is about two hours away from Los Angeles, correct?

[0:30] Nik Walker: Where are you going with this, buddy?

[0:31] Alex Smolowe: You do know. Now you're coming from New York where if you want to get from A to B.

[0:36] Nik Walker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[0:37] Alex Smolowe: Uh, you have a subway.

[0:39] Nik Walker: Yeah.

[0:40] Alex Smolowe: You have a taxi cab.

[0:41] Nik Walker: Yeah.

[0:42] Alex Smolowe: Everything is about 45 minutes to get anywhere you want to go. You are aware that to get from San Diego to Los Angeles, you will have to drive a car.

[0:56] Nik Walker: No.

[0:59] Alex Smolowe: And I seem to remember that you don't know how.

[1:06] Nik Walker: I don't.

[1:07] Alex Smolowe: Ooh.

[1:08] Nik Walker: Ooh, we s ooh, that's it.

[1:09] Alex Smolowe: No, no, no, no, no, no. There's no sensitivity.

[1:11] Nik Walker: There's no sensitivity here.

[1:12] Alex Smolowe: There's no sensitivity here, Nik. Here's what I want to say to you.

[1:15] Nik Walker: Yeah, I will have to drive at some point.

[1:18] Alex Smolowe: And I do want to learn how to drive. I do want to get like, and granted, here's what I'll also say. I do know how to drive.

[1:26] Nik Walker: I don't have a license.

[1:28] Alex Smolowe: I never got a license, but I do know how to drive. So I will make that distinction. But I want to say this. The first thing that I will do when I come to your coast is learn how to drive.

[1:38] Nik Walker: Assuming that it is safe for me to learn how to drive with this pandemic raging.

[1:43] Alex Smolowe: That said, you also have the Pacific Coast, uh, Surf Liner.

[1:49] Nik Walker: Up the coast.

[1:50] Alex Smolowe: I knew you were that. Trust me, that is not an option.

[1:54] Nik Walker: That is like a fun diversionary taking a train up the coast. I love it. If you had to be in LA for an audition or something, or to come see your best friend, taking the Surf Liner is such an expensive, like time-consuming thing to do.

[2:12] Alex Smolowe: Hey guys, listen up. I'm on Cameo, okay? I'm on Broadway Plus. Come at me. Let's make some money together so I can take the Surf Liner up the coast.

[2:24] Nik Walker: Oh man, we're so broke.

[2:26] Alex Smolowe: Little Justice.

[2:29] Nik Walker: Little Justice.

[2:32] Alex Smolowe: Little Justice.

[2:36] Nik Walker: Oh welcome, welcome, welcome to Little Justice, Little Justice, the broke podcast, broke by broke.

[2:43] Alex Smolowe: We ain't got it.

[2:44] Nik Walker: I will. I'm keeping that one in my pocket, the Cameo thing in my pocket because that I can pay you $30 and you're uh $45, sir.

[2:52] Alex Smolowe: $45?

[2:52] Nik Walker: Oh, you upped your rate to make you say whatever I want.

[2:56] Alex Smolowe: I can turn it down. I can decline to do it.

[2:59] Nik Walker: Yeah, but you wouldn't do that.

[3:00] Alex Smolowe: Not to me.

[3:01] Nik Walker: If you were paying me to do it, then no, I would not turn you down.

[3:04] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, you'd do anything for $45.

[3:06] Nik Walker: No, I do anything for your $45.

[3:09] Alex Smolowe: You, that's you specifically. That's like 20% of everything that I've got.

[3:13] Nik Walker: Mm-hmm.

[3:16] Alex Smolowe: Listen, the pandemic, it's so crazy. We're doing uh on the podcast that shall not be named to uh the day of this.

[3:20] Nik Walker: Oh my god, you can name it.

[3:22] Alex Smolowe: You keep calling it the podcast that shall not be named, but I I don't care.

[3:25] Nik Walker: Well, it's the Chaos Twins, and we're a talk show.

[3:27] Alex Smolowe: We're not a podcast, we're a talk show.

[3:28] Nik Walker: But on that...

[3:30] Alex Smolowe: There you go, you're a talk show.

[3:28] Nik Walker: We're a talk show, but I know that we're better than that.

[3:33] Alex Smolowe: We should bring Sasha on.

[3:37] Alex Smolowe: She actually would love to come on. She can talk about this.

[3:39] Nik Walker: Because I've never met her.

[3:39] Nik Walker: Yeah, yeah. We will bring Sasha on.

[3:41] Alex Smolowe: Brand synergy.

[3:41] Nik Walker: Yeah, brand. Get the brands together.

[3:43] Alex Smolowe: Get them together, get them bouncing off each other, and then you can come on the case.

[3:46] Nik Walker: You don't have to like tiptoe around it, the show that will not be named, like it's not Voldemort.

[3:52] Alex Smolowe: Or is it?

[3:53] Nik Walker: Or is it? But no, we're gonna do an episode actually the day of this recording on financial advice and stuff of that nature.

[4:00] Alex Smolowe: And it's just so funny because yeah, this pandemic, man, it takes your money.

[4:03] Nik Walker: Takes it definitely takes your money.

[4:06] Alex Smolowe: It does not replenish your money.

[4:07] Nik Walker: Yeah, I'm in the midst of uh I started getting into real estate investment last year, and so I uh am managing rental properties in upstate New York, which has been a challenge in and of itself.

[4:17] Alex Smolowe: Um, but it's an especially interesting time to be doing that where like people just renting has become different.

[4:25] Nik Walker: The expectations of things and rent price, it's been a real adventure.

[4:29] Alex Smolowe: It started crazy and then COVID happened and now Adventures and Babysitting, dude.

[4:35] Nik Walker: It's real. But we are back with uh part two of our stage to screen adaptations, our favorite stage to screen adaptations.

[4:42] Alex Smolowe: Uh, the stage play is this one, this episode.

[4:47] Nik Walker: Um, you know, and we are very excited. I now I actually love um, I love stage plays at the Matern's movies because there's so many that we actually don't think about.

[4:58] Alex Smolowe: There's so many movies that come from plays.

[5:01] Nik Walker: There are a lot.

[5:02] Alex Smolowe: There's a ton. And there's the movies that are publicized that they came from a play, and then there's the movies that aren't.

[5:07] Nik Walker: You know what I mean?

[5:08] Alex Smolowe: Like, I don't think when Closer came out, I don't think that was ever publicized.

[5:11] Nik Walker: Closer was a play?

[5:13] Alex Smolowe: That's exactly what I mean.

[5:13] Nik Walker: Yeah, Closer was a play.

[5:14] Alex Smolowe: Patrick Marber.

[5:15] Nik Walker: Wow.

[5:16] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, it's an amazing play and makes an amazing movie. You know, but like people never, you know, when it's a musical, it's a little harder to hide.

[5:24] Nik Walker: But with a good play, right? Like, for instance, uh, Leslie Odom, the guy who, you know, essentially gave me a job, is doing a, uh, do you remember that play that I did in Denver?

[5:36] Alex Smolowe: Uh, One Night in Miami.

[5:37] Nik Walker: One Night in Miami.

[5:38] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, I love that. That was my favorite show you've done.

[5:41] Nik Walker: It's my favorite show I've done. I really, he's in the movie version of that that is being, that was just got directed by Regina King for HBO.

[5:50] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, that's gonna be good.

[5:51] Nik Walker: It's gonna be amazing.

[5:52] Alex Smolowe: It's gonna be amazing. I love too when you watch something and you can tell, like, you know what, this was probably a play.

[5:59] Nik Walker: Or when you watch something and you have that thought and then you find out that it wasn't. And I think that that speaks to the writer, right?

[6:05] Alex Smolowe: I think that, you know, it all comes down to, and usually that it's a playwright.

[6:09] Nik Walker: Yeah, exactly. Like, uh, what's his name who did In Bruges and Three Billboards?

[6:14] Alex Smolowe: Oh, Martin McDonagh.

[6:15] Nik Walker: Yeah. Martin McDonagh, who's like, okay, this guy's definitely a playwright, even though he hasn't staged these scripts that he's written, it's a definite playwright that wrote it.

[6:24] Alex Smolowe: But I think that what that comes back to is just the love of language. And I think that that's something that a lot of screenwriters discount, right? Because again, film is a visual medium, so you want to go to the visual first, but we sometimes can get bogged down in the fact that like good dialogue can take care of so much of, you know, of a film.

[6:44] Nik Walker: And it doesn't have to be overly used dialogue, but just like solid, good dialogue. Like I think about The Wire, which is not a film, right?

[6:54] Alex Smolowe: But oh, The Wire was famously, to say that you think about The Wire is the understatement of my life.

[7:00] Nik Walker: I think about The Wire.

[7:02] Alex Smolowe: You don't think about anything but The Wire.

[7:04] Nik Walker: I really do. I really love The Wire so much.

[7:06] Alex Smolowe: Because it's the best piece of writing on TV, I think, in the past ten years, 15.

[7:12] Nik Walker: I'm gonna try again. I have a confession is that I've never made it past late second season of The Wire.

[7:20] Alex Smolowe: You've got as far as I can get.

[7:22] Nik Walker: You gotta keep going. You gotta keep going. If you're looking, if you need more action in your TV show, not the show for you.

[7:29] Alex Smolowe: Like if it really is not the show where you sit back and you're entertained. It is the show that if you watch even three episodes in, four episodes in, there are payoffs because it is all callbacks, it is all prophecies coming true, things that were subtly set up that all of a sudden blossom.

[7:46] Nik Walker: Um, but none of it is hitting you over the head. It is very much like a slow, the slowest of slow burns. But like once you get revved into it, like we by the third season, you're just cooking with gas because it's like now we're going back to things that happened in one and two, and you know, it's freaking beautiful.

[8:04] Alex Smolowe: But all that to say, the dialogue is probably my favorite thing about The Wire.

[8:09] Nik Walker: And that dialogue was all written by, I mean, I assume that's why you love The West Wing also.

[8:14] Alex Smolowe: That is exactly why I love The West Wing. I love Sorkin, I love, I love uh, David Simon, I love David Milch who wrote Deadwood. Anyone who can just do things with words, I just think that we get so afraid sometimes of using words in film and I think that words are powerful always, always.

[8:33] Nik Walker: Well, there's that old adage, uh, yeah, adage, a dodge, something I don't know, uh, show don't tell.

[8:39] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, right.

[8:39] Nik Walker: Yep. And so you get, and they certainly teach you this in film school and the whole thing is like if you don't need to use words, then don't use words.

[9:55] Alex Smolowe: And I think that can be true in many situations, but I think that there is also an art form to the song and dance of conversation.

[9:55] Nik Walker: Yeah.

[9:55] Alex Smolowe: Or even monologue, which is just conversation with the self, right?

[9:55] Nik Walker: Exactly. And even if it's flowered up, even if it's not realistic, if it's not how someone would actually speak, there's a real, you know, art form to appreciate in that.

[9:55] Alex Smolowe: And I want to push up against this because again, I think even if you're going for quote unquote realism, none of this is how someone would actually mean like we are giving you, you know, when you are writing a script, play script, movie script, whatever, you are giving us the best hits, right?

[9:55] Nik Walker: Yeah.

[9:55] Alex Smolowe: You are literally going through and like the thing that would take the normal person five, six, seven tries to get right, you are putting it down on the page as their number one.

[9:55] Nik Walker: Yeah.

[9:55] Alex Smolowe: Do you know what I mean? So there's nothing natural about this. So I always, whenever I hear that concession, like, throw that out the window. Do you know what I mean? Like, we are talking about a heightened reality, no matter what your story is, and the only choice that you have is are you going to be blatant about that heightened reality or not?

[9:55] Nik Walker: I think that's what I hear when I hear realism or not. And I think that, you know, if we're talking about these writers, I think that the way that dialogue can be a misdirection. It can be show, don't tell, because I think that good dialogue, you know, you can learn something about the characters, and they can talk about things that have nothing to do with plot.

[10:10] Alex Smolowe: I, you know, again, gonna go back to my boy, who's my boy, who's my boy, Nik?

[10:14] Nik Walker: Tarantino.

[10:14] Alex Smolowe: Uh, Quentin Tarantino. Some of his best dialogues are when you have characters, he drops you in the middle of the scene, and the characters are talking about things that ostensibly have nothing to do with the movie that are just like their favorite song on the radio, or this meal that they had the other day, or you mean just these random things, but that teach you about character without telling you character.

[10:38] Nik Walker: Yeah.

[10:39] Alex Smolowe: I got a really good note on a script a long time ago. It was early on, I hadn't written much, and the note was that the dialogue I was writing, you know, the characters are saying too directly what they're feeling.

[10:51] Nik Walker: Yeah.

[10:51] Alex Smolowe: Like people don't talk like that. Real people, they lie, they misdirect, they talk about other stuff, they deflect. Real good dialogue doesn't actually say what it's saying.

[11:01] Nik Walker: At all.

[11:02] Alex Smolowe: Right? There's something else that then the actors can take and work with it and bring it to a new level when they perform it. And there's a whole, there's whole depths to simple words.

[11:11] Nik Walker: Well, and think about it, think about it this way. It's like, again, you want to talk about show don't tell. If you allow the characters to pull you in, it comes down to can I hear you writing this? Or is this the character speaking? Is this Alex speaking or the character? Alex, the writer wants you to know that Johnny feels sad today.

[11:30] Alex Smolowe: Right?

[11:30] Nik Walker: So he says, I feel sad. And that's Johnny's line. But how would Johnny do that? Johnny would come into the kitchen, and maybe, you know, maybe he picks, you know, he makes himself some toast, but like maybe the toaster's broken, so he has to hit it one or two times. He, you know, maybe his wife's looking at him a little weird. You mean like there's, uh, there's so many ways to say that. And then in his dialogue, maybe his dialogue is terse. Maybe he's like, you know, speaking in like three-word sentences that day. He doesn't really want to talk to somebody that day. That tells you that Johnny is sad without ever saying, I am sad today.

[12:02] Alex Smolowe: Yep.

[12:02] Nik Walker: You know, even going back to Shakespeare, you know, um, thinking of a sad character, Antonio in The Merchant of Venice. His first line is, uh, in sooth, I know not why I am so sad. He doesn't say I am sad. He, the first thing he says is, I don't know why I'm sad. So already he's made it active. Already we're not worried about the actual emotion. He's on a pursuit to find out why. So even that is misdirection, and I think it's all just applicable to writing, you know, to writing 101. You know, just show don't tell. Um, but I think you can do that with words.

[12:35] Nik Walker: And I love stories and plays on especially stage to screen that do that.

[12:39] Alex Smolowe: So yeah, man.

[12:40] Nik Walker: Do you want to go first? Because I feel like I feel like this is one where we probably didn't choose the same one.

[12:44] Alex Smolowe: Uh, the chances are a lot slimmer, uh, especially because you kind of just have a broader knowledge of uh of these things.

[12:54] Nik Walker: I couldn't I couldn't think of a ton. Because my mind does immediately go to like Martin McDonough, to things that yeah are play-like, but maybe not even from stage and things I definitely haven't seen. But there is one film that stuck with me uh since I saw it when it came out, and I knew when I saw it it was based on a play, and I I would love to see it staged.

[13:15] Alex Smolowe: And so to me, and and honestly, it relates to uh last week's topic uh of musicals and what makes an effective musical. Something very, very important to me is clarity of tone and clarity of theme, theme more than tone. I want to know from the get-go what is this about?

[13:30] Nik Walker: Yep.

[13:31] Alex Smolowe: And then I want to see a master crafting a story that sticks to that theme and explores that theme uh with clarity and presence and power, so that you can, you know, that there is nothing wasted. Every scene, every character, every interaction is saying something, even the the name of this show is the theme, and it starts off exploring it and it doesn't stop the whole time.

[13:56] Nik Walker: Oh, good for you. I love that. Great pick.

[14:01] Alex Smolowe: So we open uh in 1960s Bronx.

[14:05] Nik Walker: This is New York. It's an early morning. Uh a boy is getting ready to go to school, he gets up, he goes out, um, passes people on the street. Uh he goes to uh a Catholic school, and they have morning, you know, he's an altar boy, he gets ready, meets his friend, uh, who's also an altar boy. You go through the sermon, the father gets up, and he asks, what is doubt?

[14:31] Alex Smolowe: That's the topic of my sermon today.

[14:36] Nik Walker: Last year, when President Kennedy was assassinated, who among us did not experience the most profound disorientation? Despair. Which way? What now? It was a time of people sitting together, bound together by a common feeling of hopelessness. But think of that. Your bond with your fellow being was your despair.

[15:09] Alex Smolowe: It was a public experience.

[15:11] Nik Walker: It was awful. But we were in it together. Doubt can be a bond as powerful and sustaining as certainty. When you are lost, you are not alone.

[15:34] Alex Smolowe: This movie.

[15:35] Nik Walker: I could I couldn't. The film is Doubt. I mean, this is even knowing nothing about the staged version of it, even knowing it it it felt to me, you could word for word, you could take this movie and put it on a stage, which I assume it's probably not far off.

[15:51] Alex Smolowe: Pretty close.

[15:51] Nik Walker: It's pretty much.

[15:52] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[15:53] Nik Walker: But the translation, the the the actual filmmaking, and Roger Deakins shot it.

[16:00] Alex Smolowe: Yep.

[16:00] Nik Walker: Um I don't know if you it's beautiful to look at. It's it's articulate. The cinematography is articulate. Um and the blocking and the performances, and it's basically about a Catholic school where uh the head nun, um, who's this real, you know, sharp she's like almost like a stereotype of what you assume the head nun at a school like this to be. She's really strict with the kids.

[16:24] Alex Smolowe: She's very, you know, she's just she's just poisonous with everybody.

[16:31] Nik Walker: Always, you know, wrinkling up her nose at every single thing. Uh she gets it in her head that there might be something with the priest and one of the boys.

[16:42] Alex Smolowe: Never any distinct evidence of it.

[16:44] Nik Walker: Um, you know, there's never anything direct. She just it's it's about the seed that gets planted and how far can you take that before you, you know, ethically, morally, whatever, can't pursue it anymore.

[16:59] Alex Smolowe: Uh and it's it's Meryl Streep versus Philip Seymour Hoffman, which is, you know.

[17:05] Nik Walker: It's like watching two Titans.

[17:06] Alex Smolowe: Like, and then you also have Amy Adams, who's always incredible, and freaking Viola Davis coming in and like saying, Hey, hey, world, here I am. I'm ready to be a star now.

[17:15] Nik Walker: And had and at that point had been in the had been in the theater game for years.

[17:19] Alex Smolowe: Um, but this was a role that was just like came crashing through the door.

[17:24] Nik Walker: Oh my god, yeah. And and and it's one of those things, I remember watching there's one there's one scene in particular, and I'm I may just cut it in in its entirety.

[17:32] Alex Smolowe: Yep.

[17:33] Nik Walker: Because it I've watched it on YouTube probably 30 times because of of just how precise it is dramatically.

[17:43] Alex Smolowe: It uses visual metaphor.

[17:45] Nik Walker: It uses it uses everything it has to.

[17:51] Alex Smolowe: God, I don't even know how to describe it.

[17:54] Nik Walker: I don't even know how to describe it. For the same reason that I love There Will Be Blood in terms of how it handles greed.

[18:00] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[18:01] Nik Walker: Right? Where in every single scene, if you take the word greed and you slap it up on the screen and watch the scene that's playing out, the scene is about that.

[18:13] Alex Smolowe: Yes.

[18:14] Nik Walker: Right? You are you will be able to find uh the concept of doubt in every single scene of this movie.

[18:22] Alex Smolowe: Yes.

[18:23] Nik Walker: Uh and it it's about how people lie, it's about how people get these thoughts in their head that they maybe don't want to have or know they shouldn't have. It's about uh dealing with simplicity versus complexity. It's about it's about so many things, and the whole film becomes this playground for drama.

[18:55] Alex Smolowe: A third party would be required.

[18:57] Nik Walker: What was Donald's mother doing here?

[19:00] Alex Smolowe: We were having a chat.

[19:02] Nik Walker: About what?

[19:03] Alex Smolowe: A third party would truly be required.

[19:05] Nik Walker: No, sister.

[19:06] Alex Smolowe: No third party, me and you are due for a talk.

[19:09] Nik Walker: You have to stop this campaign against me.

[19:12] Alex Smolowe: You can stop it at any time.

[19:14] Nik Walker: How?

[19:15] Alex Smolowe: Confess and resolve.

[19:16] Nik Walker: You are attempting to destroy my reputation.

[19:19] Alex Smolowe: Who keep opening my window?

[19:23] Nik Walker: What are you doing in this school?

[19:25] Alex Smolowe: I'm trying to do good.

[19:28] Nik Walker: Even more to the point. What are you doing in the priesthood?

[19:33] Alex Smolowe: You are single-handedly holding this school and this parish back.

[19:37] Nik Walker: From what?

[19:38] Alex Smolowe: Progressive education and a welcoming church.

[19:41] Nik Walker: You can't distract me, Father.

[19:43] Alex Smolowe: This is not about my behavior. It's about your unfounded suspicions.

[19:47] Nik Walker: That's right.

[19:48] Alex Smolowe: I understand.

[19:48] Nik Walker: Just leave that.

[19:49] Alex Smolowe: It's not important.

[19:50] Nik Walker: I will decide what's important.

[19:56] Alex Smolowe: You know, funny story.

[19:57] Nik Walker: So me and me, so Sarah Moonstruck is one of Sarah's favorite films, which was written and directed?

[20:04] Alex Smolowe: Or uh No, not directed.

[20:05] Nik Walker: Right. Not directed, but certainly written directed by Norman Jewison, but written by John Patrick Shanley.

[20:11] Alex Smolowe: For which he won an Oscar, I think.

[20:12] Nik Walker: He did, in fact. They screened Moonstruck at the at uh the museum of the moving image.

[20:18] Alex Smolowe: And then there was a talk with upon John Patrick Shanley afterwards.

[20:20] Nik Walker: Now I have never seen John Patrick Shanley in person.

[20:24] Alex Smolowe: I've seen so many of his plays.

[20:26] Nik Walker: You know, I doubt obviously Danny and the Blue Sea, really, especially like when you're studying theater, like you get you get thrown a lot of John Patrick Shanley.

[20:26] Alex Smolowe: You get thrown a lot of John Patrick Shanley.

[20:36] Nik Walker: And you watch this movie, which is like so New York and so like specific New York.

[20:43] Alex Smolowe: And like he just has like he has this kind of Italian American, Irish American dialect down, right?

[20:50] Nik Walker: Like these these worlds are just like boom, there for you. Then he the movie, the movie ends, and he's sitting there, and they ask him a question.

[20:58] Alex Smolowe: He opens his mouth to speak.

[20:59] Nik Walker: If this man does not sound like every character that you just heard on the film, and it was like I mean, he literally sounds like Nicolas Cage in Moonstruck.

[21:09] Alex Smolowe: That that is who he is.

[21:11] Nik Walker: And it was fascinating because, like, oh, it's like the write what you know. And it's not about, you know, him knowing, you know, what it's like to have be a man who, you know, makes bread in a basement and has his hand cut off and you know starts an illicit affair with Cher, but like he writes about his world and pro and doubt, sorry, doubt is a perfect example of that.

[21:31] Alex Smolowe: Uh, where, you know, Catholic school and that he talks, he talked about that in his talk back.

[21:36] Nik Walker: All these larger than life characters and dealing with this thing.

[21:38] Alex Smolowe: He also I I love doubt because doubt deals with in a way that very few writers who aren't black can deal with.

[21:48] Nik Walker: He dealt with what it's like to be a token in such a and she only has one scene.

[21:54] Alex Smolowe: Like, it really is just that one scene um for Viola Davis.

[21:58] Nik Walker: But like the, you know, she is the mother of the of the son who is suspected of having of being victim to this this illicit relationship with um Philip Seymour Hoffman.

[22:09] Alex Smolowe: And Meryl Streep's character comes to her and says, you know, uh what do you want us to do about this? How do you want us to proceed?

[22:14] Nik Walker: You know, we we need to get him, we need to get him away from your son.

[22:19] Alex Smolowe: And she's like, you ain't going against no man in a robe and win.

[22:22] Nik Walker: He's got the position.

[22:23] Alex Smolowe: And he's got your son.

[22:25] Nik Walker: Let him have him then.

[22:29] Alex Smolowe: What?

[22:32] Nik Walker: It's just till June.

[22:36] Alex Smolowe: Do you know what you're saying?

[22:39] Nik Walker: No more about it than you.

[22:43] Alex Smolowe: I believe this man is creating or may have already brought about an improper relationship with your son.

[22:52] Nik Walker: I don't know.

[22:54] Alex Smolowe: I know.

[22:55] Nik Walker: I am right.

[22:55] Alex Smolowe: Why you gotta know something like that for sure when you don't.

[23:00] Nik Walker: What kind of mother are you?

[23:02] Alex Smolowe: I mean, number one, it's there's a sense that she knows that he is different.

[23:06] Nik Walker: And by different, you know, like that she knows that he is that he is probably gay, and he's also a black student, and his father doesn't understand certain, you know, him, and this school, if she's like, if you're telling me that he has to choose between a father who's gonna beat him, and this school where this man has taken a shine to him, and you know, whatever the nature of their relationship can be a safe space for him.

[23:34] Alex Smolowe: That's why his father beat him.

[23:40] Nik Walker: Not the wine.

[23:42] Alex Smolowe: What are you telling me?

[23:46] Nik Walker: Talking about the boy's nature now.

[23:49] Alex Smolowe: Not anything he's done.

[23:52] Nik Walker: Which is such an amazing conversation to have.

[23:55] Alex Smolowe: Oh my god.

[23:55] Nik Walker: Like it's such a heavy, heavy, heavy conversation conversation, and had had so quietly, too.

[24:02] Alex Smolowe: It's never never again never explicitly said.

[24:05] Nik Walker: Never explicitly said, and I think it's elevated by that point, right?

[24:08] Alex Smolowe: Because uh, there is a reason that Philip Seymour Hoffman's character cannot there, there's obviously something that he's hiding.

[24:16] Nik Walker: Yeah.

[24:17] Alex Smolowe: Um, and I think the analysis of the of the film that I buy the most is that his character is gay and can't do anything about it.

[24:27] Nik Walker: That's what makes sense through his manner.

[24:29] Alex Smolowe: He he's obsessed with with clean fingernails.

[24:30] Nik Walker: He's like, Where is that? My fingernail is long, but they're clean, look how clean they are.

[24:34] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[24:34] Nik Walker: Um, it it's a it's about keeping order in your house, which is exactly what Meryl Streep is about.

[24:38] Alex Smolowe: Yep.

[24:39] Nik Walker: And the confusion that sets in when people cannot be open with each other.

[24:43] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[24:43] Nik Walker: When people have only, you know, they're they're rigidly confined by society, whether it's race or sexuality or religion or anything, they're put in these confinements, and because of that, they have to hide things about themselves that then cause other people to distrust them.

[24:59] Alex Smolowe: Yep.

[25:00] Nik Walker: And that's where doubt comes from not knowing who someone else is and suspecting that they that there's something going on that might need attention.

[25:09] Nik Walker: Yeah, really, it really is just a beautiful exploration of that theme and takes you down the rabbit hole. And again, can't speak enough about Meryl Streep. You know, I look at young Denzel, and you see just an incredible, incredible work with him. But in terms of somebody who has sustained and only gotten better as they've gotten older, Meryl Streep is it. I'm sorry. I mean, Daniel Day-Lewis, like you can say Daniel Day, but Daniel Day is incredible, but he also, I think that Daniel Day kind of like, not that there's a cheat to Daniel Day, but I love Daniel Day, but Daniel Day makes a movie every ten years. Do you mean like he has time to sit? It's a whole different thing. Meryl Streep is a master of her craft.

Yeah, you know, Daniel Day is almost a freak. He's just like he pops in when he wants to, and he does an amazing job, and then he leaves. He's not concerned about finding the next great thing and beating it to death and creating something out of like Meryl Streep will finish a movie and she'll go straight on stage and she'll finish a play and she'll go straight back to movies, and she's like, she just loves working. And that's the thing. Like, and you see her. I'm sorry, I've never seen a Meryl Streep performance I didn't like. I saw Mamma Mia! because Meryl Streep was in it. And she's like great. She was great. She was fun. Like, it's just somebody who truly clearly enjoys what they do, yeah, and loves that play of what they do.

And you know, from somebody who started as like this small supporting character in Deer Hunter to where she is now. Right. It's just like, I mean, and before Deer Hunter, she was doing New York theater for years, and it's just like, wow, you are, it was interesting to me. Um, I was very excited when the film version of August: Osage County was coming out. Yeah. Because the stage version was so phenomenal and it's Meryl Streep and it's all this stuff. Um, I was a little disappointed by that. I heard that one didn't come out so quickly. It didn't hurt the, well, and I think that can be a problem with translating stage to screen is like if you're not doing anything new with it, if you're not using the tools at your disposal to maximize everything, then you're doing it wrong, right?

You can't just assume it's gonna work. Yeah. Um, I watched a movie recently, I can't even remember what it is, and the reaction I had was that was pretty good, but you could have anybody direct that and it would look the same way. Yes. Right. This could have been it. It's like somebody took a good script and they just did the work and then it came out the other end with no voice, with no flavor, with no style, with no, you know, deeper anything like that. I think doubt seems like a movie, and again, I haven't seen the stage version, but it seems like a movie where they really dug into what it was about and they cared very, very much about creating the world and creating the characters and being real um and knowing the limitations of the screen too.

[28:02] Alex Smolowe: Remind me, do you ever leave the church in that, in that in doubt?

[28:07] Nik Walker: You're pretty much always on the grounds.

[28:10] Alex Smolowe: Pretty much.

[28:11] Nik Walker: Uh, or outside the grounds. I mean, the film starts in, you know, the kid's house and walking down the street and you get within the periphery, but most of it, yeah, takes place in or around. Yeah, yeah, it really, um, it's amazing. So, uh, yeah, doubt, doubt, you haven't the slightest proof of anything but I have my certainty and on with that I'll go to your last parish and the one before that if necessary I'll find a parent trust me Father Flynn I will you have no right to act on your own you have taken vows obedience being won you answer to us you have no right to step outside the church I will step outside the church if that's what needs to be done though the door should shut behind me I will do what needs to be done to hell you should understand that or you will mistake me doubt I don't doubt that you will love this movie.

[29:17] Alex Smolowe: I don't I don't doubt it.

[29:19] Nik Walker: I don't doubt it goes go watch and R.I.P. Philip Seymour Hoffman. Let me tell you, that's another one who I think is, I mean, and I, you know, all the way back to Twister, um, when he was playing Dusty, the crazy storm, like somebody who just clearly loved the work and I, everything he was one of those actors when he died that my mom called me up and she's like, I know he meant something to you, and like his work was just always everything that I wanted to do. I just thought he was just magnificent. I mean, someone else who really pays attention, who's there, who's there to get dirty, who's there to like get really do the work, do the job. The only time I ever saw him in person was at school in New York, because he lived around NYU.

[30:08] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, he lived right there.

[30:09] Nik Walker: And he would just walk around the streets. He was like in sweatpants. It was like November. And he would just walk, his hair's going in 18 different directions. He's just big, you know, baggy shirt and these sweatpants and sneakers, looking like a homeless person.

[30:23] Alex Smolowe: Probably just going to work.

[30:25] Nik Walker: Yeah, just chilling. He I loved, I saw, I got a chance to, um, uh, well, I actually didn't get to see it. Oh my god, I, but I wanted to see. He did a production of Othello at, uh, at Skirball at NYU Skirball.

[30:43] Alex Smolowe: Um, and I would have killed to see him as Iago.

[30:46] Nik Walker: I feel like his Iago would have been just stellar. Yeah, Philip, Philip Seymour Hoffman, we love you, and thank you for everything you left us. Um, you know, you're incredible. Um, but yeah, man. And another, another Philip Seymour Hoffman film dealing with theme is The Master, which watched if you haven't, because that's another very poignant where you can tell he knows what that movie's about and he's doing everything he can to get it out.

[31:10] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, it really, yeah, he is again just a gift of an actor and anything you watch him in and Capote, you know, I know everybody loves Capote, but that is truly, truly the tip of the iceberg for Philip Seymour Hoffman.

[31:23] Nik Walker: All right, ladies and gentlemen, we're gonna take a quick advertisement break to pay for things, but when we come back, we will have some money, money, money movie choices for you.

[31:35] Alex Smolowe: We will be right back after these messages.

[31:39] Nik Walker: Okay. So my movie that starred as a play is definitely different than doubt. But also when you're talking about a movie that zeroes in on a theme and then just goes for that theme, this movie certainly does that. Doesn't put the theme in the title, but from the very opening, you understand what this movie is. Watching it, you know, I'll say this. So the first place, the first way that I was going to go with this was Amadeus.

[32:10] Alex Smolowe: Um, we will talk about, I will bring Amadeus into this at some point in the future because I love Amadeus.

[32:10] Nik Walker: I love Amadeus. I also love Amadeus because, uh, funny fact, so Tom Hulse, who plays Amadeus, is the lead producer on Ain't Too Proud on Broadway.

[32:29] Alex Smolowe: Oh no way.

[32:30] Nik Walker: Um, so whenever, and I have not, I haven't even told him this yet, but like so like my, you know, when this, like we talked about Ain't Too Proud was my first, you know, my first big lead on Broadway, and I cannot wait to go back at some point. Um, but you know, the first, the first your first two weeks leading a Broadway show, especially when you're coming in as a replacement, are insane because everybody is trying to get used to you, right? The whole building has functioned around how a certain person's rhythm has gone, and now that rhythm has changed, and they're all trying to figure out okay, what's your rhythm?

[33:06] Alex Smolowe: And because you are the number one, it all goes from the top down.

[33:09] Nik Walker: So I'm getting, you know, literally at every half hour, I'm getting sound text in there saying, can you do this a little louder? Can you do this a little quieter? I'm getting, you know, hair and makeup people in there, like asking me how, you know, how I want my makeup today or how I want my hair today or whatever. And then for about three weeks straight, I would have Tom Hulse come into my room and just sit down and like he, Tom Hulse and Ira Pittleman, who are the producers, and I'm not saying this because it's the show that will employ me when this pandemic is over. Um, they are two of the best producers on Broadway.

[33:42] Alex Smolowe: I have yet to look that man in the face and be like, Sir, I need you to know that your performance changed my life.

[33:47] Nik Walker: I have not said that to him. And I don't just mean Amadeus, I also mean The Hunchback of Notre Dame.

[33:52] Alex Smolowe: Um, I'm like, I just every time I look at him like I just see his little face, and I'm like, oh my god, you were Amadeus, and I'm not sure.

[34:00] Nik Walker: That oh improvisation scene getting chased around by the girl.

[34:04] Alex Smolowe: Oh my god.

[34:05] Nik Walker: He's so, he was, oh my god, iconic.

[34:08] Alex Smolowe: Iconic and such a hard part, right?

[34:11] Nik Walker: Because you have to play this asshole, but also he's a genius, but also you have to care about him, and he threaded that needle so well.

[34:19] Alex Smolowe: Um, and I, I just, I had no idea.

[34:22] Nik Walker: Yeah, me, me, I mean, yeah, and I, yeah, I've loved him for a long time. But so it was originally gonna be Amadeus, and then I was like, no, we can do a little better than that. We can, we can get some deep, deep cuts.

[34:32] Alex Smolowe: So I chose a movie that is a movie again, I think with both Sweeney and this, these are both pieces that I will kill to do. People always ask you when you're a theater actor, like, what roles do you want to play? And I always, it's so funny because I always say this this title to, you know, kids who mainly still study musical theater, and they're like, what is that? I'm like, well, you need to learn what this is because it is one of the best plays ever written.

[34:56] Nik Walker: We open with some super 80s looking title cards.

[35:01] Alex Smolowe: Like black titles again with like a blue glow behind them, and like, like they kind of like ripple as like a, like there's like a train passing by.

[35:12] Nik Walker: We open up on a city.

[35:15] Alex Smolowe: Uh, you know, and we open up on a phone booth, and an old man is in a sitting in a phone booth, uh-huh.

[35:23] Nik Walker: Yeah, what is it trying to like he's talking, he's just talking real fast, trying to, we don't know if he's trying to sell something, if he's trying whatever.

[35:30] Alex Smolowe: Then I got a little meeting, and then I'll, and there's just a look of just forlorn on his face, and then Ed Harris gets into the phone booth next to him.

[35:38] Nik Walker: And he's set, he's selling some things, and then they're like, are you going to the meeting? What meeting? They're having a whole conversation about the meeting.

[35:44] Alex Smolowe: We show up at the back of their office, and there's a stacked cast.

[35:48] Nik Walker: Jack Lemmon is the old man. We have, like I said, Ed Harris. We have, um, Kevin Spacey before we knew Kevin Spacey's past.

[35:57] Alex Smolowe: We have, um, I was about to say Alan Alda, but it's, it's um, oh my god, why am I forgetting it's Albin?

[36:04] Nik Walker: No, well, Alec Baldwin is there, he's pacing, but the actor that I'm talking about is of course Alan Arkin.

[36:04] Alex Smolowe: Alan Arkin.

[36:04] Nik Walker: Alan Arkin, Alan Arkin. The people in that room are Jack Lemmon, Alec Baldwin, Ed Harris, Alan Arkin, Kevin Spacey.

[36:20] Alex Smolowe: And Alec Baldwin is pacing.

[36:22] Nik Walker: He's like, are they all here? Because I'm gonna go.

[36:25] Alex Smolowe: And they're waiting on one more.

[36:27] Nik Walker: He's like, no, I'm going anyway. And he rips into the speech about how these guys are pathetic.

[36:34] Alex Smolowe: So who is that?

[36:34] Nik Walker: And how they need to always be closing. Where's Mr. Rump? And that is, of course, Glengarry Glen Ross.

[36:43] Alex Smolowe: Let me have your attention for a moment.

[36:46] Nik Walker: Because you're talking about what? You're talking about bitching about that sale you shot.

[36:53] Alex Smolowe: Some son of a bitch don't want to buy land, somebody don't want what you're selling, some broad you're trying to screw, so forth.

[36:58] Nik Walker: Let's talk about something important.

[37:00] Alex Smolowe: Are they all here?

[37:01] Nik Walker: All but one.

[37:02] Alex Smolowe: Well, I'm going anyway.

[37:03] Nik Walker: Let's talk about something important.

[37:07] Alex Smolowe: Put that coffee down.

[37:14] Nik Walker: Coffee's for closers only.

[37:19] Alex Smolowe: You think I'm fucking with you.

[37:25] Nik Walker: I am not fucking with you.

[37:27] Alex Smolowe: This movie is heartbreaking in a way that I had forgotten.

[37:32] Nik Walker: I had forgotten how messed up this movie is. And I love, so a lot of people don't like Mamet as a writer.

[37:39] Alex Smolowe: I love Mamet.

[37:40] Nik Walker: People think that his writing is too robotic.

[37:44] Nik Walker: He very much writes for rhythm. And he writes it, you know, his theory, or you know, he's very famous for what his theory is purported to be, which is like, just say my words, and they will work. Don't act these things, just say the words. And truthfully, if you just say the words, they will work. The words are powerful, and he uses a lot of repetition, and he used a lot of like broken sentences. Characters do not use pronouns often. They just jump right in the middle of the line. And it's all to give you a sense of quickness, right? He's writing about dirty, dirty, dirty people. That watch costs more than your car. I made $970,000 last year. How much you make? You see, pal, that's who I am, and you're nothing.

People who are like on the grimy side of life. And Glenn Gary Glenn Ross is no exception. And you know, this kind of race to the finish for these salesmen to sell these leads. Kind of like a precursor to The Wire, because they're just, it's such an impossible task that one of them comes up with the idea to steal the good leads, right? Because the leads that they have to sell these properties are bunk, are terrible. So like, well, I don't, I'll just go in there and steal the good leads. And then the second half of the movie is like after the leads have been, you know, the place was ransacked and somebody tried to steal the leads, the kind of interrogation that happens. It's a big decision, George.

Sometimes a guy's got to make one. It's a big decision and it's a big reward. $2,500 and a job. It's a big reward for one night's work. You know sometimes a guy, sometimes he wants a reward. It's absolutely right. But it is truly just like a playground for these actors to go to town. And it really is heartbreaking because you just see what just like the American ideal yet again does to the psyche. You know, these guys are broken down. They are truly broken and they are racing and they are trying anything they can to get these leads. You know and the famously the Alec Baldwin opening monologue is actually not in the play.

[40:01] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, yeah, it's not in the play. It was subsequently added to the play after the movie but like even then like a lot of productions that I've seen still don't use it. But it is so necessary.

[40:10] Nik Walker: Interesting, yeah, that's like the whole point. It sets up the stakes perfectly. Perfectly. The play opens with Jack Lemmon's character Shelly and Williamson, Kevin Spacey's character, in a booth in a Chinese restaurant, like, and Shelly's trying to convince Williamson to give him the good leads. Right. And Williamson's like, no. And it's just the dialogue in that scene, like the dialogue on all these scenes. I mean, it's just heartbreaking. It's just, um, it's just crazy. Shelly.

[40:45] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[40:47] Nik Walker: You ready to do or die tonight?

[40:49] Alex Smolowe: Oh yeah.

[40:51] Nik Walker: Always ready, John. Now, one thing. We were talking about the leads. I understand we got some know what's going on.

[40:56] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, that's what we're gonna talk about at the meeting.

[40:58] Nik Walker: We are, because I'm running into a little bit of a snag. Yes, I've senior sales figures.

[41:02] Alex Smolowe: That's the leads, John. You give me a better leader. That's what we're gonna be talking about tonight.

[41:09] Nik Walker: After the meeting.

[41:09] Alex Smolowe: I hear the new Glenn Gary leads.

[41:11] Nik Walker: After the meeting, Shel.

[41:15] Alex Smolowe: Well, so in terms of the translation from stage to screen, what do you think, besides Alec Baldwin's monologue, what do you think the movie did that enhanced or brought out differently the story?

[41:28] Nik Walker: Gave it more locations. You know, you're able to see more of the space. So the play literally just takes place. Act one is three scenes in the same Chinese restaurant. Act two is the office after it's been ransacked. That's it. The movie allows you to see the street outside the Chinese restaurant, the train overhead. You just get a sense of the world for these guys. It allows you to make home visits, right? Jack Lemmon goes to somebody's home and is like, let me try to sell you on this. So you're able to see them in action. So there's just a little more fleshed out, like you end up, I think honestly, you end up caring about these characters a lot more than you do in the play. Because in the play, they're kind of just like these fast-talking assholes.

And in the movie, you really get the, there's a little more breath, and you get the time. And I really, again, I'm gonna go back to Jack Lemmon because his performance in this movie is, I mean, it's pretty spectacular. It's, you know, Al Pacino gets the accolades, and he got the Academy Award nomination for this. But let's not sleep on Jack Lemmon. The character of Shelley, who actually Al Pacino ended up playing in the most recent revival, is really like the kind of the Willy Loman of this group. Like he is just the person who if the play is about the American dream and what the American dream does to people, Shelley Levine is at the end of his American dream, and he is fighting with his last breath to hold on to any semblance of it.

And Jack Lemmon imbues him with such, you know, because and especially because it's Jack Lemmon, so already we're walking in, you know, having our memories of this guy as just like a, you know, just like a good old, you know, good TV comedy, we love his work, guy.

[43:11] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, and to see him so broken, and to see him trying to keep that facade up is just, oh, your heart goes out. And when he's finally revealed, spoiler alert, when he's finally revealed as the guy who pooh-pooh'd over the office, the descent for him is so heartbreaking. It's at this moment where he thinks he's got Kevin Spacey's character beat, and then he says what he gets too cocky and he says one wrong thing that lets Kevin Spacey know, oh, you're the guy that bumped off the office. You are so full of shit.

[43:39] Nik Walker: He robbed the office.

[43:40] Alex Smolowe: Oh sure, I robbed the author.

[43:42] Nik Walker: Oh sure.

[43:42] Alex Smolowe: You assholes. What did you do with the leads? You want to go in there? I tell him what I know, he's gonna dig up something. You got an alibi last night, Shannon? You better have one. What did you do with the leads? If you tell me what you did with the leads, we can talk. Yeah, well, I don't know what the hell you're talking about. If you tell me where the leads are, I won't turn you in. If you don't, I'm gonna tell the cop you stole them. Mitch and Murray will see that you go to jail. Believe me, they will. Now, where are the leads? I'm walking in that door, you got five seconds to tell me you were going to jail. I don't care. You understand?

[44:14] Nik Walker: Yeah. Also, I mean, you know, the other reason I chose this movie is because the most creative uses of the word fuck.

[44:27] Alex Smolowe: I was wondering if you're gonna bring that up or not.

[44:29] Nik Walker: Yeah. No, we gotta take it. The language is colorful. There is colorful language all over this movie. And it like, it just, it just, I'm sorry. When you hear a good swear, when you hear people who know how to swear swear, there was nothing like it. I've been in this business 15 years. What's your name?

[44:48] Alex Smolowe: Fuck you!

[44:49] Nik Walker: That's my name. There's nothing like good swearing. And yeah, there's a difference between swearing for swearing's sake and swearing with effect.

[44:59] Alex Smolowe: Are you coming for me on this one?

[45:01] Nik Walker: No.

[45:01] Alex Smolowe: Are you trying to, no you're not coming for me?

[45:03] Nik Walker: Yeah.

[45:04] Alex Smolowe: Okay.

[45:06] Nik Walker: I'm not. I'm not. I'll, no, no, I'm not saying that you, that you, I maybe sometimes you do. But in works of art, right? In scripts and books and screenplays, there it's so easy to throw it out as like when someone's angry, right? To just have them say fuck this and fuck that and all that.

[45:21] Alex Smolowe: Yes.

[45:24] Nik Walker: To use it effectively, though, is a whole different story, and this is definitely a situation where that happens. Because they don't hold back. Alec Baldwin's a pretty, I haven't seen it in a long time, but I remember Alec Baldwin being a pretty almost scary dude.

[45:39] Alex Smolowe: It's one of the, I mean, I'll, you know, I'll read you this and then you bleed into it with the actual performance of it. But there's a scene where Al Pacino's character, you know, his Williamson, who's kind of the office, he keeps, he's the office manager, he keeps ordering the office, he discerns who gets the leads and who don't. He screws him over. He makes him lose a lead. And Roma turns to him and he says, I'm gonna read this, and again, I'm so sorry for all the language.

[46:15] Nik Walker: You stupid fucking cunt.

[46:18] Alex Smolowe: You Williamson. I'm talking to you, shithead. You just cost me $6,000.

[46:23] Nik Walker: $6,000 and one Catalan.

[46:26] Alex Smolowe: That's right. What are you gonna do about it?

[46:32] Nik Walker: What are you gonna do about it? Asshole. You fucking shit. Where did you learn your trade? You stupid fucking cunt, you idiot. Whoever told you that you could work with men.

[46:46] Alex Smolowe: Could I?

[46:46] Nik Walker: Then he goes, and then he goes. I'll tell you something else. I hope you rip the joint off. I can tell our friend here a little something might help him to catch you. You want to learn the first rule you'd know if you ever spent a day in your life. You never open your mouth till you know what the shot is.

[47:12] Alex Smolowe: You fucking child.

[47:14] Nik Walker: It's ridiculous.

[47:15] Alex Smolowe: Oh.

[47:16] Nik Walker: Love that. It's so good. And it's like not even like, again, he's not overusing the swears, but it's just like he's placing them so perfectly that you're just watching this man get eviscerated. It's, oh my god, I love it so much. I love it so much. And then Jack Lemmon at the end, like I said, is just, you know, he thinks he's won, and then Kevin Spacey comes back in. And it really just is about this concept of like when you are living in a society that is dog-eat-dog, and you know, and there's only one prize, everybody gets vicious and people lose.

[47:51] Alex Smolowe: Everyone loses, everyone loses.

[47:53] Nik Walker: And you know, he did this, he kind of, you know, American Buffalo, which is his other most famous play, which was turned into a movie that I have a soft spot for, but is not as effective as Glengarry is. Glenn Gary as a movie is much more effective than American Buffalo. You know, both of these movies are about people trying to con the American dream, trying to like take that gamble and make that sale and steal that thing. And, you know, it really just watching these guys go head to head to head. You mean you talk again, you talk about Meryl Streep versus Philip Seymour Hoffman, Al Pacino versus Kevin Spacey versus Ed Harris? Do you mean like insane? Insane.

[48:34] Alex Smolowe: So I mean both our films, like it, there's definitely, it's kind of like a set amount of characters, right? I mean, Glenn Gary, I'd say a small amount of characters, but it's not tiny.

[48:45] Nik Walker: It's not small, but it's a defined, right?

[48:49] Alex Smolowe: Large for a play, but it's, I mean, it is large for a play, but small cast, one or two locations, like small locations, which I guess makes sense. Are there examples of really good play translations that are completely different that are that open wide up to the world and are not focused on the performance as much?

[48:59] Nik Walker: Amadeus is certainly one.

[49:13] Alex Smolowe: Yep. Amadeus definitely. I hadn't even realized that Amadeus was a play.

[49:17] Nik Walker: Oh dude, Amadeus is incredible. They actually just did an amazing production in the West End back in, I think it was like 2017.

[49:24] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[49:24] Nik Walker: With one of my favorite actors, this black man, I forgot Lucia, oh my god, I forget his name. But it was an incredible production, and they had like a live orchestra on stage playing along and like it was just while I watched it on the YouTube when the, you know, now that the West End is putting a lot of their shows on YouTube and it was gorgeous to see. Also Angels in America, which is a mini series, they made it into a miniseries smartly, because Angels in America is such a big task for one film, but that piece on stage definitely spans a lot of time and place, but like a lot of that is supposed to be done minimalistically. Like it's more just like we say we're here and now we're here. Do you know what I mean? As opposed to building the grandiose sets and really placing you in this crazy fantasia, which the movie does excellently.

[50:20] Nik Walker: I was gonna say one flew over the cuckoo's nest, but that really just sits in the hospital. So maybe that's it does, but for some reason it feels more organic.

[50:33] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[50:33] Nik Walker: The dialogue is not play-like in that.

[50:36] Alex Smolowe: No, it's not a good thing.

[50:37] Nik Walker: Like maybe the characters and, you know, the setups are a little bit stagy, but it feels very much like you wouldn't know it's based on a play watching.

[50:47] Alex Smolowe: No, right you wouldn't. It's a good idea for a movie, it's effectively played by all the actors. The world feels real.

[50:54] Nik Walker: I would also say Dangerous Liaisons and Streetcar Named Desire.

[50:59] Alex Smolowe: Okay.

[50:59] Nik Walker: Those two definitely. I mean, Streetcar certainly feels, I think Streetcar, and maybe because of the era in which it was made feels like a film.

[51:08] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[51:09] Nik Walker: You know, so many of the films of that era were essentially just like Casablanca, and we talked about this when we recorded the quarantine movie podcast, although my wife has left me for grad school podcast, Casablanca certainly feels like a stage play.

[51:28] Alex Smolowe: Well, I think a lot of movies of that era do because they had the same confinements, right? A movie was a filmed play where you build a set and the cameras weren't going off the set very much until like Hitchcock started to do it.

[51:41] Nik Walker: Yeah, so a lot of the early films were, and you get that, like you wonder why do all the actors sound, why do they intone things like this? Like why is this being vocalized like this? Why are they acting like 'cause it's not natural at all. But if you think about someone performing a movie from the 30s or 40s on a stage, it actually makes sense why everything is kind of rigid and proper and inflected, you know.

[52:09] Alex Smolowe: Makes a lot of sense.

[52:10] Nik Walker: A lot of, yeah. One thing I was curious about, I had an original choice that I was gonna pick for this, and I because I was sure it was based on a play.

[52:24] Alex Smolowe: And then I looked at it and it wasn't.

[52:26] Nik Walker: It was based on a teleplay, which is Twelve Angry Men.

[52:30] Alex Smolowe: Oh yeah.

[52:31] Nik Walker: Which is, you know, 12 people in a room and that's it. Talking. The whole thing is just people sitting around talking for the whole time. I was like, that's gotta be a play, because that's a perfect play. It's not. It was developed for TV and then filmed.

[52:47] Alex Smolowe: Um, it's probably become, it probably went the opposite direction, to be honest. I can't imagine they haven't staged it in one way or another.

[52:54] Nik Walker: Um, according to Wikipedia, it's based on a teleplay.

[52:59] Alex Smolowe: No, that's incredible. That's really, yeah, I would have thought that would absolutely be a play.

[53:03] Nik Walker: Right. Um, but no, good for them. And that again, and that's I think that that speaks to kind of the nature that can be, you know, very true. Is, you know, look, if you have a good idea for 12 guys in a room, you know what I mean?

[53:18] Alex Smolowe: Like if you, if you like I'm sure you have a good idea for that.

[53:21] Nik Walker: I love, I love single location. I love because I love pop. It's more talking about just having 12 guys in a room. Sounds like something you'd be interested in.

[53:33] Alex Smolowe: You know what, yeah, man, I would. I would love that. And because I'm, you know, a man who understands that sexuality is a fluid thing, and you know, we can have, you know, many, many little things.

[53:45] Nik Walker: I mean, I'm sure that we'd put you in a room with 12 people and you would come out with a play.

[53:49] Alex Smolowe: I would, I would, that's what would happen.

[53:52] Nik Walker: That's exactly what would happen. It'd be a great play. It'd be called Twelve People Decide to Kill Alex Smolowe.

[53:58] Alex Smolowe: Honestly, I'd see it.

[53:59] Nik Walker: I know you would, man.

[54:01] Alex Smolowe: I'd see it.

[54:01] Nik Walker: That's because you have an issue.

[54:03] Alex Smolowe: You know what that is? You're a masochist.

[54:04] Nik Walker: Yeah. Gotta work on that, bro.

[54:06] Alex Smolowe: Gotta work on that. Really not okay. Really weird.

[54:09] Nik Walker: You got it, bro. You got it, bro.

[54:15] Nik Walker: You'll be as cold as you want. You just fucked a good man out of six thousand dollars and his goddamn bonus because you didn't know the shot.

[54:22] Alex Smolowe: You can do that, and you're not mad enough to say it gets you. I don't know what. If you can't take something from that, then you're scum.

[54:29] Nik Walker: You're fucking white bread. A child would know it.

[54:33] Alex Smolowe: He's right. If you're gonna make something up, John, be sure that it helps.

[54:38] Nik Walker: Or keep your mouth shut.

[54:40] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, I gotta watch Glengarry again.

[54:42] Nik Walker: Yeah, and I gotta watch Doubt again. Glengarry got, uh, I, I before I'd ever seen it, I had heard about it because of the all-male cast.

[54:50] Alex Smolowe: It has kind of that reputation because on film it was like a strange thing.

[54:54] Nik Walker: There's no female performers in the film at all. Although I will say, I am the biggest advocate, the biggest advocate for an all-female production of Glengarry.

[55:03] Alex Smolowe: And my dream.

[55:05] Nik Walker: So if I, my first dream is that I want to play Ricky Roma. My second dream is that I want to watch Ruth Negga play Ricky Roma.

[55:13] Alex Smolowe: I feel like Ruth Negga would destroy it.

[55:18] Nik Walker: Not to mention the other ways you could fill the rest of the cast.

[55:20] Alex Smolowe: Oh my god. No, I mean, like I'll shoot. I have that cast, are you kidding me? Meryl Streep is Shelley. Ruth Negga as Ricky Roma.

[55:31] Nik Walker: Um, I would love to see, uh, let me look at this cast list to make sure I'm getting everybody.

[55:36] Alex Smolowe: Um, you put, uh, if you're gonna do the Alec Baldwin, I think that's Tessa Thompson.

[55:43] Nik Walker: Okay.

[55:44] Alex Smolowe: In a heartbeat.

[55:45] Nik Walker: Um, for the Kevin Spacey.

[55:49] Alex Smolowe: Based on, I mean, just based on her, like just her, there's just something where like when she talks, people listen. And I think she could kill that.

[55:57] Nik Walker: For the Ed Harris character, I mean, you could go a lot of ways with that. I could certainly see like a, um, like Cate Blanchett.

[56:05] Alex Smolowe: You need somebody who can really do character. That's what you need for that.

[56:08] Nik Walker: Um, that's why my mind went there.

[56:10] Alex Smolowe: Um, I would love to see. I mean, I could see Amy Adams as the Alan Arkin part.

[56:17] Nik Walker: I could also see like, what's her name from Booksmart? Just somebody like, because I would love to see a young Moss.

[56:20] Alex Smolowe: I would love to see a young Moss and like somebody who's not schooled, and that could be great to have like a younger.

[56:28] Nik Walker: Speaking of Moss, Caitlin Bieber, Elizabeth Moss would probably be.

[56:31] Alex Smolowe: Oh, Elizabeth Moss.

[56:32] Nik Walker: Elizabeth Moss would be great as, as, uh, she'd fit right into that whole dynamic, yeah.

[56:36] Alex Smolowe: Oh my god, that'd be great.

[56:38] Nik Walker: Um, and yeah, and then, you know, I mean, it would just be a stacked cast, dude. You could really have some fun with that.

[56:44] Alex Smolowe: But instead we get Oceans 8.

[56:47] Nik Walker: Which I loved.

[56:48] Alex Smolowe: Did you?

[56:49] Nik Walker: I loved it. I will say, I thought Oceans 8 was a ton of fun.

[56:53] Alex Smolowe: I thought it was a ton of fun. Better than Ghostbusters.

[56:56] Nik Walker: Ghostbusters was a misfire.

[56:58] Alex Smolowe: Ghostbuster fire. Because here's, I will say this is what this is, here, here's, and this is, you know, again, two cis straight men talking about this movie or these movies.

[57:07] Nik Walker: Here's what I will say. I think that when you are doing, if you're gonna do an all-women reboot, which like go for it, do it. Absolutely, be free.

[57:15] Alex Smolowe: Um, I think that you have to really just like any other movie, like just define your movie. What is the world?

[57:25] Nik Walker: Um, yeah, what is it?

[57:26] Alex Smolowe: Well, I, if you're gonna do it, it had, I mean, if the whole idea is let's like gender swap a famous IP, then you have to have a deeper reason than that.

[57:40] Nik Walker: It's not like, okay, we're gonna fill it with female characters and then just write a normal comedy as it is. Because no, like there's the reality that you've done this for a reason, and it has to, like if you did it with Glengarry Glen Ross, that talks to power dynamics in America, right?

[57:54] Alex Smolowe: That talks to the modern age and changed, literally just making that choice says something about something.

[58:01] Nik Walker: Uh, Ghostbusters was such a misfire because it's like, well, okay. Like you just did this as like a almost like a marketing ploy because the movie was written so flat, like everything is so, and it was strange too because I think the thing that they missed was in, you know, the thing that makes the original Ghostbusters the movie is not about anything, like nothing happens.

[58:22] Alex Smolowe: These characters don't change.

[58:23] Nik Walker: It's literally just these three dudes and a black guy fighting ghosts.

[58:28] Alex Smolowe: Right.

[58:29] Nik Walker: But the thing that makes it work is that between Egon, Venkman, and Spangler, they have three distinct personalities and three distinct brands of comedy.

[58:38] Alex Smolowe: And you had brilliant comedians. You had Kristen Wiig, uh, oh my god, I'm going to kill myself for missing these people's names.

[58:49] Nik Walker: Because one of them was my camp counselor from what, 2000.

[58:53] Alex Smolowe: Dude, dude, we're gonna get into that in this, in the Fina?

[58:58] Nik Walker: No.

[58:58] Alex Smolowe: Are you Aquafina? Wasn't in Kristen Wiig, Melissa McCarthy, and Kate McKinnon.

[59:04] Nik Walker: Kate McKinnon was my camp counselor at Northwestern, uh, Cherubs in 2008.

[59:10] Alex Smolowe: Really?

[59:11] Nik Walker: Yeah.

[59:12] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, man.

[59:14] Nik Walker: Huh.

[59:14] Alex Smolowe: I, I, yeah, I, I she was, and also I will say, because that camp was this ended up being the site of some huge racial injustice, but she was one of, she was like the shining light in that experience.

[59:25] Nik Walker: She was awesome.

[59:26] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, she really made my summer.

[59:29] Nik Walker: Um, but yeah, you have three incredibly, or four, and Leslie Jones.

[59:34] Alex Smolowe: Leslie Jones, yeah.

[59:35] Nik Walker: Four incredibly distinct brands of comedy, and yet it was almost like they all wanted to be the Venkman.

[59:41] Alex Smolowe: Like it was almost like you wrote them all as the Bill Murray, like I'm in it, but I don't really care about it.

[59:47] Nik Walker: It's like, no, you gotta let one of them be the Egon, one of them be, like that's what makes that work.

[59:52] Alex Smolowe: It's like three stooges, but in ghosts.

[59:55] Nik Walker: Do you know what I mean?

[59:56] Alex Smolowe: Like, yeah, I just, I was like, this, you did these actors a disservice.

[1:00:00] Nik Walker: Um, be specific. Get, be specific with your world.

[1:00:03] Alex Smolowe: And that's just a rule for any good movie. Be specific, you know.

[1:00:05] Nik Walker: So, yeah, man, but, but you know, I would love to see that version of Glengarry, and I will, I hope that we get to see it.

[1:00:14] Alex Smolowe: And I, you know, I'm sure I wouldn't be surprised if I want it, yeah, please.

[1:00:18] Nik Walker: It makes a lot of sense.

[1:00:19] Alex Smolowe: Makes a huge, even if only on stage, maybe.

[1:00:22] Nik Walker: Yeah. I mean on stage and then maybe a movie after that. But it's like, yeah, Glengarry is definitely a story that we need right now, I think.

[1:00:30] Alex Smolowe: Um, you know, 'cause it just speaks to the moment.

[1:00:33] Nik Walker: But yeah, Doubt and Glengarry, man. Excellent, excellent choices.

[1:00:37] Alex Smolowe: Uh, excellent choices. Both of them. Maybe, maybe next week we can talk about musicals that I started writing with you that you abandoned me on and yet still contractually are gonna get paid for.

[1:00:50] Nik Walker: You never sent me the goddamn contract.

[1:00:52] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, I didn't send you the contract. I don't have a contract.

[1:00:55] Nik Walker: So you could still steal my work, which like ripe lawsuit.

[1:00:58] Alex Smolowe: I'm sure we have emails and texts that abound with you confirming that I was the creative, you know, center point.

[1:01:06] Nik Walker: No, not that you, the creative center point show. The emails and texts that abound that I show that I had to drag you along.

[1:01:13] Alex Smolowe: You're like, all right, all right, alright. And then you gave up.

[1:01:16] Nik Walker: Is this where, where is this, is this, is this part two of the Bloody Boston trilogy?

[1:01:20] Alex Smolowe: This is, I mean, in the chronology of the Bloody Boston trilogy, this is part three.

[1:01:26] Nik Walker: Well, yeah.

[1:01:28] Alex Smolowe: Part, part no, it's, I guess it is part two because because this ends tonight is actually where I'd want it to be Uncle Jackie, Whiskey Land.

[1:01:36] Nik Walker: This ends tonight. That's what I'd want.

[1:01:38] Alex Smolowe: Cool.

[1:01:39] Nik Walker: Yeah, as long as I get my royalty check.

[1:01:42] Alex Smolowe: You're not getting shit.

[1:01:44] Nik Walker: You're not getting shit.

[1:01:46] Alex Smolowe: I'm staring at a poster with your name on it. I'm like, why is his name there? He did not contribute anything.

[1:01:51] Nik Walker: Yes.

[1:01:51] Alex Smolowe: To this fucking show.

[1:01:53] Nik Walker: It's my life's work to make sure that the two weeks of lazy songwriting I did for you becomes pays for my grandchildren to go to college.

[1:02:04] Alex Smolowe: I want that for you so bad.

[1:02:05] Nik Walker: So bad.

[1:02:07] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, man. Incredible.

[1:02:08] Nik Walker: Well, there you go. Amazing.

[1:02:10] Alex Smolowe: Alright.

[1:02:10] Nik Walker: Well, yeah, yeah, good get at us.

[1:02:12] Alex Smolowe: Um, Little Justice Pod on Instagram and Little Justice Pod on Twitter.

[1:02:17] Nik Walker: Get at us.

[1:02:18] Alex Smolowe: Let us know what you think.

[1:02:19] Nik Walker: Let us know if you have episode ideas too.

[1:02:21] Alex Smolowe: If you want to hear us, if you have guest ideas, if you want to hear someone come on, we know people.

[1:02:28] Nik Walker: So we do, in fact, know some people.

[1:02:30] Alex Smolowe: We have some ideas.

[1:02:32] Nik Walker: Yeah.

[1:02:33] Alex Smolowe: Let us know.

[1:02:35] Nik Walker: Alright, guys.

[1:02:37] Alex Smolowe: Alright, see you next time.

[1:02:38] Nik Walker: Bye.

[1:02:38] Alex Smolowe: Little Justin.

[1:02:41] Nik Walker: Little Justin.

[1:02:48] Alex Smolowe: Fuck yeah.