This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Alex Smolowe: Hey, Nick.

[0:01] Nik Walker: Hey.

[0:02] Alex Smolowe: I'm terrified.

[0:03] Nik Walker: Oh, you should be, man. You should be.

[0:06] Alex Smolowe: How you doing today?

[0:07] Nik Walker: I'm good. Up to now, I'm good.

[0:09] Alex Smolowe: Up to now because we're talking.

[0:13] Nik Walker: Because you know I had a nice quiet day until I just popped the headphones on and there you are.

[0:18] Alex Smolowe: No. What do you got for me?

[0:20] Nik Walker: Well, here's the thing. I actually, so there are many things that we're gonna talk about today. We have an amazing guest here today. But for the cold open portion of this, I actually do want to be serious about something. I wanted to send some love out to all the Disney cast members.

[0:34] Alex Smolowe: Uh yeah. I read about this.

[0:36] Nik Walker: Yeah, it's not, you know, so for those of you who have been listening to the pod for a while, you know that we are huge Disney fans, Disney Park fans, and Disney just announced a layoff of about 28,000 of their workers, cast members. And so as we have had so many Disney fans on the pod, and we talk about it all the time, I just thought that we actually should, like, in all seriousness, no jokes, just say we love you, we thank you, and please keep bringing the joy into your own lives that you've brought into ours.

[1:10] Alex Smolowe: So see, that's it. That's all I wanted to say.

[1:11] Nik Walker: I know I can be a nice person sometimes, Alex.

[1:16] Alex Smolowe: Just say something mean too.

[1:21] Nik Walker: Proud boys stand by.

[1:35] Nik Walker: Ah, welcome, welcome, welcome to the fucked up racist 2020. That is Little Justice the Podcast. Now we're back. Now we're doing the damn thing.

[1:50] Nik Walker: Dude, yeah, that fucking debate we can talk about because good. I don't want to talk about it. We literally ordered about $90 worth of sushi and got wine delivered and just hunkered down. And Eminem is from Turkey, so this is kind of her first big election.

[2:08] Alex Smolowe: Oh my god. Please don't judge us by this. Like this is where we will overcome. And one of the ways that we will is by having people in the country like our guest today. I want to bring her on because early, because she's just the best, and I know she has something to say about this shit. This woman is just a podcast extraordinaire. You probably have heard her on the Hamelcast. You've definitely heard her on True Crime Obsessed. Ted Michael reads sketches into microphones. She is just an incredible, incredible person. Gillian Pensavalle, come on onto the show.

[2:45] Gillian Pensavalle: Hey.

[2:46] Alex Smolowe: Hey, Gillian. How are you guys doing?

[2:49] Nik Walker: We are good. Let me say, let me tell you something right now. It's very strange to hear your voice in the position that you're in, but be talking to you. Do you know what I mean?

[2:57] Gillian Pensavalle: I'm thrilled to be on your podcast for once because you've been on the Hamelcast three times. You've been on Ted Michael Reads Sketches into Microphones. We don't have guests on True Crime Obsessed. But it's nice to be hosted by you for once.

[3:11] Nik Walker: By us. I'm gonna try to be as consummate of a host as you are on your podcast. And this is what I wanted to bring up. I'm glad that you said the name is, we also, you know, we've covered the basis of your podcast because good lord.

[3:25] Alex Smolowe: So, Gillian, I wanted to tell you about this.

[3:28] Gillian Pensavalle: Please do.

[3:29] Alex Smolowe: So I'm terrified of true crime. I'm terrified. Oh, like I don't like listening to stories about killings that have actually happened. They scare me, they scare me to death. So it took me a second to listen to True Crime Obsessed. And Gillian is a dear friend, and of course I want to support everything she does. But I was like, if I, you know, just the idea of listening to these pods about people being killed, it's not my favorite thing. But the past week I was like when I knew Gillian was coming on, I was like, I gotta listen to this thing. I gotta, let me listen to this. Gillian, I need to understand, okay, oh no. How do I phrase this? The phenomenon that is Patrick. I need to understand it because I wasn't prepared for you and him.

[4:14] Gillian Pensavalle: Like, Alex, Gillian on Hamelcast is like chill and like, I mean, it's like, but this show, Gillian, talk to us about this because this is—

[4:23] Gillian Pensavalle: Yeah. So the Hamelcast is like, is the True Crime Obsessed and the Hamelcast are two like completely real but completely opposite versions of myself. So when I'm on the Hamelcast and I'm talking to you or Lynn or Mandy Gonzalez or someone, the heightened, like the enthusiasm, I was telling Alex before we recorded, like I'm an interrupter, I hate it, it's the ADHD, but it's out of enthusiasm, and also if I don't say it now, it'll be gone forever, and so I just wanna say it. And so that's where the excitement comes. You know, the ensemble members, and I love this, and this is so exciting. Now, True Crime Obsessed is where we recap true crime documentaries. So that is where, because I hate true crime too, Nick, and I'm very honest with my anxiety and the things that trigger me on that podcast.

And like animal stuff and any kind of sexual assault as a survivor of sexual assault, covering those cases is always very hard for me. But you know, and so we go through, it's heightened, but like we consider ourselves victim advocates, we don't victim blame at all, and we just drag these fucking pieces of shit for the pieces of shit they are, and we get angry, and the listeners like my anger, I guess, because they feel seen. And Patrick is just a screeching banshee who's here for all of it, and God bless him. That's all I have to say.

[5:31] Nik Walker: And that's all you need to say because it's—I mean, he's like, he's at a hundred all the time.

[5:37] Alex Smolowe: Well, and both of you, I mean, it truly was like listening because again, I know you like we have talked, we have hung out, we have texted, like we've, you know, we watch movies together. This—we are pals. This side of you was incredible to get to know. I was just like, holy shit.

[5:56] Gillian Pensavalle: It was just how do you, how do you end up doing it?

[6:00] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, how do you, yeah, go ahead?

[6:02] Gillian Pensavalle: What do you mean?

[6:03] Alex Smolowe: Like, like if you guys hate true crime, if it makes you queasy, like where did the impetus to start this thing come from?

[6:10] Gillian Pensavalle: Well, I love true crime, but it does scare—like it is, you're obsessed.

[6:14] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, I would.

[6:15] Gillian Pensavalle: Thank you so much, Alex. We're gonna have fun here today. But yeah, it's one of, it's like I, I'm so mad about these things, or I want justice solved, or justice done, or I want to find the person, I want to get the guy. So there's that sort of, we're not alone talking about it, and podcasting and listening to podcasts can be very lonely because it just, or making a podcast, especially as you know, like literally listening to the voices in your head, and it's a very solitary thing. And so especially true crime, it's hard to find people who want to talk to you for an hour about that documentary you just watched. So for Patrick and I, like we are always gonna, it started because Patrick had a Broadway backstory and theater people, he was like the premier Broadway podcaster.

I started the Hamelcast back in 2016. He reached out to me and said, you know, hey, I'm sorry, Nick, I have to do it. The world is wide enough. Like, let's be friends, like you're in theater podcasting, I'm in theater podcasting, and he was very like, let's be pals. And so we became pals through that sense, and then we started going out for cocktails. Like the amount of times we would text each other and say, you're not like in midtown right now, right? At like 1:30 on a Monday, and we would just like meet at a bar. And then the Broadway talk started like very quickly into true crime talk, and then one thing led to another, and bada bing, bada boom, as they say in the mob, and as a Pensavalle, I'm allowed to say that. Where here we are.

[7:33] Nik Walker: No, and it's, it truly, and I think that's one of the things that I think is so special about that pod, is that you really do take this subject which is grim and is just terrifying and terrible. And you make it empowering and you make it, and you make it not, I mean, fun is not the right word, but you definitely, you pull us along in a way that it's like, okay, like let's fucking get these guys. Let's, you know, I mean like it was—

[7:58] Gillian Pensavalle: Yeah, yeah, and thank you for that because the thing, I mean, it's a true crime comedy podcast, and immediately you see the look on the look of disgust, a true crime comedy podcast. And it's like, no, we, we're never, we don't victim blame, we're never making fun of the families, but like the shitty lawyer whose suit doesn't fit and he's an asshole, yeah. The cops who are racist, yeah. Like the rapists, the animal abusers, the kidnappers, like we're gonna drag them, and that's what people want to hear. Like, of course, they also want to hear like, and on February 7th, like some, you know, they want the dateline, the nightline stories, they want that, but it's a little bit of therapy to hear people say what the listeners say, like that they're thinking, just the rage and anger, and we have to find stuff to laugh at or we're gonna cry. It's 2020. If you don't get that now, then I can't help you. But if we don't kind of approach this with a little bit of levity, it's just, it's too grim. The whole thing is too bad, you know.

[8:50] Alex Smolowe: And that's a great segue into the next question. How has your 2020 been going?

[8:55] Gillian Pensavalle: Oh, terrible. Thanks for asking. How are you?

[8:58] Nik Walker: Oh, listen, we're fucking right here, bruh. It is so real. It is so real on these streets, y'all. Yeah, it's been tough. I'm super lucky that my career is something, you know, it's podcasting. I can, we can do it remotely. Patrick and I had to, because True Crime Obsessed is my job and it's our business, and I'm thrilled and super grateful to be able to do it. But also it's like, well, you know, everyone else is at home. Let's turn out more content for them. Let's just make, you know, do what we can for these listeners who are so wonderful to us. But like emotionally and mentally, oh, it's been a nightmare.

[9:31] Alex Smolowe: Oh yeah.

[9:32] Gillian Pensavalle: Oh yeah.

[9:32] Nik Walker: But I think you're exactly right, right? Like this idea that you have this place to go. And that's actually something I want to ask you about as well, is just like what it is like to literally pay your bills off podcasting. I mean, that is a feat, and that is a feat that, you know, in the kind of the ocean of podcasts that so few people have been able to say that they do. So like not only are you doing this for your livelihood, but it is also, I imagine, something that really focuses you and just keeps you in the pocket when everything is blowing up around you. Do you know what I mean?

[10:05] Gillian Pensavalle: Yeah, yeah. It's wild and it's so interesting because like I said before, you know, like the Hamelcast is exactly who I am. True Crime Obsessed is exactly who I am. That rage is real, me being shocked by these things, like that's all, it's not a bit. Like I'm the worst actress in the world, and like I'm too transparent for that shit. Like I can't put on an act and do it consistently like that for however many hours a week. And you know, so True Crime Obsessed is my job and the Hamelcast is a passion project. Like I knew from the beginning I would never have ads on the Hamelcast. It's not, that's not what it's about. And Ted Michael Reads Sketches into Microphones, like now that I have the ability to say, yeah, like let's take on another passion project.

And that's, you know, Mike's baby, so you guys can talk to him about that. But it's exciting to be the executive producer of that, like in my spare time, make the Hamelcast, and then be, you know, my job. And we would joke about it on True Crime Obsessed all the time. It's a weird job. Like some of the words, some of the sentences we have to say are horrible things. I mean, the words that we are forced to say to describe these horrible things, like it's a weird job. But I remember like growing up, I had an interesting academic career because I was diagnosed so late in life with ADHD. I was diagnosed at 18, which is kind of really not a thing. So I struggled a lot in school, and then when I realized what it was, I became excellent at it. And I ended up loving it. And then I felt kind of cheated all those years.

[11:23] Gillian Pensavalle: Like, man, I could have been loving this this whole time. And I was so frustrated and couldn't articulate what was happening. And growing up, like, you know, I came from on-camera hosting, being like a VJ and doing all that stuff. And so there was never a thing to define what I wanted to do. Like podcasting was when I started the Hamilcast, I never did it for the money. I never, you know, I knew that wasn't the thing, but it led me down this road. It led me to Patrick and it led me to True Crime Obsessed, and now it's my job. And looking back at all those frustrating conversations where I couldn't, so like I just want to talk about things I love and be myself. And that wasn't a thing, you know, back then.

And it was also just like, oh, yeah, but you have to have like a goal goal. And I'm like, well, yeah, I just want to be myself. Like, uh, it was very frustrating for a very long time. And now to kind of sit here and be able to do this. But at the same time, like people ask that question a lot, and there is no like magic trick. There's no switch. It's incredibly hard work. I'm working all like to a fault. Like to Mike is just like, you need to take a break. And I'm like, no, I don't. No, I can't. No, absolutely not. I have like all these deadlines, and I love having the deadlines, but there is no magic trick. It's find the thing you love, work your ass off at it, and be nice. And that's kind of it.

That's the gig. But Alex, jump in here. Cause I want, I know this is something we've talked about often. Cause like it is, yes, it is the hard work, but Gillian, you also have an, I mean, I'm just being real. You have a very natural personality for this thing. And I think that that, you know, yes, yes, it is absolutely the endurance to stay in it and to just keep pushing and to be yourself. But like there is something about you and the way that you cover topics, whether it's Broadway or true crime or sketch comedy that has brought a lot of audience members to you. So what is the thing that you would say beyond just the, you know, pedal to the pavement at all times that you think listeners are responding to about your work?

[13:24] Gillian Pensavalle: You're making me feel very shy. I'm blushing and I'm looking down as if I'm trying to hide. That's very, very kind of you, Nik, thank you. Oh please, um, you know, I think it's truly like I think it's, I just, I really love it. I can't, it's what I wake up excited to do every day even when it's hard and frustrating. And I think it's the love of the thing, whether that thing is Hamilton or that thing is talking to people. I have like a ton of questions for everyone all the time. I want to listen to people, I want to hear what people have to say. I want to hear everyone's stories. I'm so curious about how everyone got to this moment that led them in front of me. Um, or I want to fucking get the guy in True Crime Obsessed.

So, like I just, I guess there's that I think that comes through because I just, I love doing it, and I think you can't really fake that and without being like a dick about it or being too like patting myself on the back. I think it's just like find the thing that you really love to do because that can't be taught and no one can replicate that. But, and you know, like there are 800 zillion podcasts and make them all. I talk about Hamilton for an hour a week or Freestyle Love Supreme or In the Heights or whatever. I talk about that area of the world one hour every week. That's what I give you one hour a week. There are plenty of hours in the day. And then I give you an hour of true crime and like 15 minutes of sketch comedy.

But that's not a lot of time in the day. Like the world is wide enough. Make your goddamn podcast, make your thing, make your movie, be a doctor, go be, I don't know, be a barista. But if you love it, like I'm gonna go to the barista who's the nicest and like who really loves their job. That's who I'm gonna be like make sure I get in their line every week or whatever it is.

[15:04] Gillian Pensavalle: So you found yourself in the world of podcasts now. Obviously, you've hooked onto it as something you're really good at and passionate about, but you started, you got into it because you were a Hamilton fan, right? So like the passion was completely different where you like podcasting was a way for you to engage with Hamilton.

[15:21] Gillian Pensavalle: Yeah, well, um, so because I hadn't, when I started the Hamilcast, I hadn't, ADHD makes it very hard to listen to podcasts because it's not visual, so it takes me double or triple the time as I think most people, because I'm constantly rewinding, or I'm like, wait, what? It's like for me with ADHD, if anyone can relate to this, it's like when you read a book and suddenly it's like three pages and you don't know what those three pages just said, like you didn't retain it. That's what it's like for me listening to podcasts because they're not visual, it's a little tough for me. Um, so I started the Hamilcast with no podcasting experience. I didn't listen to podcasts, I didn't have any equipment, and I also hadn't seen Hamilton.

[15:55] Nik Walker: Well, you hadn't, you hadn't seen it, but you started a podcast about it?

[15:58] Gillian Pensavalle: Yeah, I had just listened to it.

[16:00] Nik Walker: What's that story?

[16:01] Gillian Pensavalle: The album came out in October of 2015. I'm sorry, if people are listening, I've told this story a hundred times, so I'm sorry for everyone listening to it.

[16:06] Nik Walker: You do briefly.

[16:07] Gillian Pensavalle: No, no, no, I, no, Alex, that wasn't about you. That was about me, like just saying the same shit over and over again. But yeah, so I heard it in 2015 and I fell in love with it, and I was like, this is awesome. And there was something, I can't explain it, I can't define it. It was a feeling, a drive, a fire that I'd never felt before. I was like, I want to make a podcast about this. The idea that those words even came into my brain is weird because podcasting was not really on my radar. It was just like I want to talk about this thing all the time. I try to talk about this thing all the time, and I see people getting bored with me and their eyes glazing over and nobody really cares. But I know that people care.

This is just, and I also didn't like think about it too much. It was like, here's what I want to do. I don't know what the goal is. I just want to make this thing about the thing. And I have to make this thing about the thing. Like there was no question, there was no should I, there was no can I? Like, I was just like, I'm gonna jump in to the deepest end of the pool and I'm gonna tread water and figure this thing out. And that's what I did. And now four and a half years later, 230 something episodes later, the entire cabinet, Nik on three times. I mean, like it's grown into something I'm insanely proud of. And it started with me having zero knowledge, but being so eager to learn. Like all I do is Google and learn things and like research things and watch YouTube videos about how to do shit that I don't know how to do.

Like maybe it's because I grew up as an only child, I've been pretty independent. Like, okay, well, it exists. Like, like people have done this, right? So if I Google it or YouTube it, there's some like fourteen year old kid in London who can probably tell me how to do it, like especially the tech stuff. But yeah, so that's how I just like taught myself how to do it.

[17:42] Nik Walker: Cool. But like I mean, what's incredible to me about this is like yes, you taught yourself how to do it, but like you have to understand, Alex, when I came into the show, I heard about it as like an established thing. Like there was no idea, like I have, and in even going on it, like you know, they had this, I mean they still do have this amazing website up. Like it does, there's nothing about this that feels like this is this person's first podcast. This felt like like you showed up and you're like, and she like they're making cocktails for you, and like you have a whole conversation, and it's like god damn, like what the, like did Lynn like just like pay someone to like make this, and then you find out that like no, this is literally this person's like gumption and just love of the show, and you're like, oh shit, like that's pretty incredible.

Um and this also brings me to the other thing that I wanted to talk to you about because I think that you know, Hamilton fans are incredible fans, and uh, and I say the word incredible a lot. I gotta, I gotta find other words, but incredible.

[18:41] Gillian Pensavalle: I know, but it's a great word.

[18:42] Nik Walker: Incredible buddies. Here we are.

[18:44] Gillian Pensavalle: Incredi buddies.

[18:45] Nik Walker: That's us.

[18:46] Gillian Pensavalle: That's the hashtag. We did it.

[18:48] Nik Walker: We did it, it's done.

[18:51] Gillian Pensavalle: Rap. But uh no, the thing that I will say, I think Hamilton fans are wonderful, but the Hamilcast fans, and I've brought this up often. Um the Hamilton cast fans, uh, you know, and especially the sect of the Hamilcast fans called the Patreon peeps. They all say hi, by the way. They saw that you tweeted, and I posted that at the group and they're very excited. They say hello.

[19:10] Gillian Pensavalle: I say hello right back to them. They are, uh no, it's true. I mean, truly, like it's to the point. I mean, like they really are just such a loyal, like male. I love the number of my like micro communities that exist because oh my god technology. It really is kind of all these different platforms, like these groups of people from ten people to a hundred people to a thousand people, like all these little micro communities where people talk to each other about the thing that they love. It's amazing.

[19:35] Nik Walker: It's amazing to hear about that.

[19:36] Gillian Pensavalle: No, and it really, it really is. And that I think that that's the thing that, you know, especially in this year when we're all so separated. I th, I you know, I c, I can't imagine, but I would think that having those communities right now is huge because this is what you were doing anyway. Do you know what I mean?

[19:58] Alex Smolowe: Most of the people, yeah. They're all over the world.

[20:01] Gillian Pensavalle: Exactly, exactly. And then that's exactly right, Alex. Like that's, I think for those of us who, and this is kind of, this is kind of, you know, why in my mind 2020 is absolutely in so many ways the year of the, I'm gonna say this with like as somebody who counts themselves as this the year of the nerd. Cause like we truly, you know, if you're saying that we can't leave our houses, you know, the way in which we're connecting is the way we've been connecting since the beginning. It's like literally since the beginning, since since the internet was a thing, this is what we've been doing. And uh, yeah, but I, but definitely talk, I mean, talk about the peeps, talk about how that specific sect came up because those, yeah, those peeps, man, they are, they're the real deal.

[20:40] Gillian Pensavalle: They're the real no, they are the real deal. Um, yeah, so I started a Patreon for the Hamilcast pretty, I guess I don't know exactly what, pretty early on. I guess the podcast has been four over four and a half years. I guess the Patreon is maybe about probably three and a half years. And so, you know, I, when I say th, they so they contribute five bucks a month and they get access to this amazing Facebook group. I know Facebook sucks, but like it's, it's so div, this community is so entrenched and amazing. But it's the kindest corner of the internet, and I mean that sincerely, and I'll dive into why that is because it's just, it's so much more than your love of Hamilton, which is so important to note, I think, because these people from all over the world, they are all different ages, they are all different backgrounds.

They come together, they have raised money for people, they have meetups together. Like there are people who are formed true, I mean true, like like family bonds, and they meet up independent of me. And it just, they're so wonderful. If someone needs help, you know, I mean, from, from like, I'm stuttering about it because I'm so overwhelmed by these people who are just, they are truly like the greatest people. And so they're the five bucks gets them like not only access to this community, but they know who's coming on the pod before I post the selfie, so they can submit questions. And so the questions that they submit, like they care so much, and I love it. So like they'll look up, even if it's if it's an ensemble member in a company they've never seen, they follow everyone involved in Hamilton on every social media account.

So they'll say, I really love that that live, that insta story that's now gone, remember, 24 hours after. I really love that insta story where you were talking about your dog or you were talking about your mental health, or you were talking about your family. Hey, how's your sister? From that thing you posted that one time that was 30 seconds. Like, they care about the people on the show and they care about each other. And um, there are hundreds of them, and it's really, I think about the peeps and I get like, I get really speechless about it because it's just this kind world. And you know, someone joins the group and I say in, you know, the pin post, please feel free to introduce yourself if that's what you're comfortable with.

[22:49] Gillian Pensavalle: I promise you you'll get like the warmest welcome in the world. And within minutes, hundreds of like gifts, like welcome, like Steve Colbert, like, welcome to the nerd zone, my friend, or Lynn, I have no chill whatsoever. Like, it's just like it's a party every time someone walks in the door. It's amazing. It's really, really wonderful. And I've heard I love hearing stories from cast members at the stage door. Like now, like Ian Weinberger, who's a musician, like he gets stage doored. Annalie Craig, who does sound, like she will get uh like fanfare at the stage door, which people who are in the pit or behind the scenes, or Holly Campbell, who works in the office, they're not used to that. And a goal on the Hamilcast is just like, all right, so I have your ear about the Hamilton stuff, but here's a cool thing to learn.

Like, it takes a fucking village to make any show go on. Every show on Broadway has a company manager, every show has a Holly. Holly's awesome, right? Like, it takes a Holly to make Beetlejuice happen and make all Ain't Too Proud happen. Like, there is an Annalie Craig at Ain't Too Proud, and that's awesome. And so it's sort of, you know, I even said like Jared Dixon was on, who's amazing, and it's like, okay, so I have your ear about Hamilton and Burr and Jared's amazing, but now we're gonna learn about Tupac for a little bit. And the fact that these listeners are so willing to go on this journey with me, and no one ever says, like, you really talk too much about non-Hamilton stuff. They're just like thrilled to learn about these people. They're all me, just excited to learn about shit all the time.

[24:06] Nik Walker: Oh, you really do have like an army of you. And it's really awesome. Like, and I mean that in the in the in the highest, in the highest respect. It is it is really cool. I also the Jared Dixon episode, uh, Alex, if you want to hear somebody being unreasonably nice to me, uh, you should listen to the parts of the. We hated doing it, but it's just like painful. It really is uh disturbing. I I don't I texted him after listening, I was like, you fuck. Guy, get out of it.

[24:35] Alex Smolowe: Well, if it made you uncomfortable, we did our job.

[24:38] Gillian Pensavalle: You did. You did, in fact, do your job. But but now, but now you're here on our thing. You're doing this thing, and it's and it feels very full circle because I actually think that this is right. This is maybe like, you know, I think the fourth or third anniversary of I think when we first met, maybe. Because I didn't we meet in the fall of that year.

[25:01] Nik Walker: That sounds about right because I remember the cocktail was uh bourbon. It felt it felt very folly, the cocktail, yeah. And because we and because we had met at Laoye's party.

[25:13] Gillian Pensavalle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And and that and thinking back to I I was I I was actually just having uh having lunch with that dear boy and just thinking about to all those memories.

[25:21] Nik Walker: Yeah, and that in that little in that little you know, where we are now and where where we have been, but now you're here on this dumb thing. I'm so excited. Thank you for having me and letting me ramble for half an hour. This has been wonderful. And we didn't even really get started. This is so exciting.

[25:34] Alex Smolowe: Oh no, this is this is what we do. I love it. This is how this is how it starts.

[25:38] Gillian Pensavalle: I know, I love it. We just just let you just let you know. And what we'll do, what we'll do, you know, since it since it's been a good half hour. I mean, this is this is this is as good a time as any for a little a little commercial break where we have to, you know, pay our bills with with words and nonsense. So we'll take a quick take a quick break here, and then when we come back, we will tell you our movie theme and we will break down these movies and Alex will say something horrible to me and and it'll be what we usually do, you know? So so stay tuned and we'll be right back.

[26:08] Nik Walker: Oh, getting good at that. I love the live throw to an ad. That's fan that's phenomenal. Mid roll.

[26:14] Alex Smolowe: Mid roll. All right, and we are back as not to lose any momentum because I want to talk about you know too much of the ads. Ads are ads and they'll add forever. Who knows what that was even an ad for?

[26:24] Gillian Pensavalle: Yeah. I guess we'll find out.

[26:25] Nik Walker: This prowl, I'm guessing, I'm guessing it was probably something to do with like we support that.

[26:30] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, we we are completely 100% behind that ad that was just given to us. If you don't buy what we're selling, that would be that would be a true crime.

[26:35] Gillian Pensavalle: That would be a true crime.

[26:40] Nik Walker: Oh I'll kill you. Gillian, he does this thing. He does this thing that's so annoying where he just like he finds a way to like sneak it in. And it and it really should professionals do.

[26:52] Gillian Pensavalle: Okay.

[26:55] Nik Walker: God damn you.

[26:56] Gillian Pensavalle: God damn you.

[26:57] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, yeah. But no, so today's theme is, of course, in honor of Gillian, the true crime movie. Which is uh true crime movie. Very exciting. Cause we, you know, we done we done a crime movie and we done I'm excited because this this is our first uh in conceptualizing the show, we realize you're gonna run out of basic genres really quickly.

[27:15] Gillian Pensavalle: Very quickly.

[27:15] Alex Smolowe: We always talked about okay, well, we can do a genre and then come back and do a more specific version of that. And so we have done a crime episode, so it's nice to see that this system works.

[27:24] Gillian Pensavalle: The system works.

[27:25] Alex Smolowe: We've even done a heist episode. Do you know what I mean?

[27:27] Gillian Pensavalle: We did a heist episode, that's true.

[27:28] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, we're we're digging through it. Oh, yeah. In like what, 18 episodes? This is not gonna last long.

[27:38] Gillian Pensavalle: Yeah, exactly.

[27:39] Alex Smolowe: Oh my god. The true heist movie.

[27:42] Gillian Pensavalle: The true heist movie. Um, no, this is this is true crime, and we definitely wanted to do this in honor of of Gillian and uh and and you know, of course. No. Uh and also, you know, I think I think that this is such an interesting genre because within this genre, and I don't know if you guys found this, there are just so many types of movie within the true crime movie. Like when I first started thinking about this, I was like, Yeah, you know, that there's really there's the ones that just came to my head automatically, and I was like, oh, but wait, but that's actually based on a real story, and that's a real story. And then I just got this whole swath.

[28:13] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, I found the same thing because there's there's a lot of stuff out there that is uh it's derived from a true crime story, right? It's it's based on loosely, and then there's movies that are trying to tell exactly what happened in its ABC order. Um and at the heart of it all, uh what I love about it is that because it happened, all of these stories are really trying to dig out who are these people that can commit these acts and why? Like what are the events that lead to these things happening? And it's su it's such a ripe ground for character study. Did you did either of you find that when you were watching you when you're watching a movie, when you're thinking about what movie you wanted, um, was there was there a similar to listening to a true crime podcast? Was there a sense of apprehension about because that was the one thing that I was like was like, ooh.

[29:06] Gillian Pensavalle: No.

[29:07] Alex Smolowe: No, you it depends on it depends on your definition of crime, I think.

[29:10] Gillian Pensavalle: That's exactly right. Jillian, how about you how about for you? And don't yeah, was there like a little bit?

[29:15] Gillian Pensavalle: I was so ready, I didn't give it a second thought. I've been, as Rudy said, I've been waiting for this my whole life. I'm I had no no question in my mind.

[29:22] Alex Smolowe: That's exciting. That's very exciting. I mean, listen, listen, that's what we want on this pod. We want that. I mean, I am amped. I'm so ready.

[29:28] Gillian Pensavalle: Oh my god, yeah, no. So so we gotta we just we gotta just we gotta just jump in with these because we gotta just let's discuss. Let's get in. I mean you want you want to just jump in?

[29:34] Alex Smolowe: I'll jump in.

[29:36] Gillian Pensavalle: And I'll jump in, I'll jump in first because my I think with a true crime movie, um, you know, I like I said, definitely looking for uh a movie that that focuses in on something that happened, something that really happened, but also one of the things that I was looking for was what movie does this with style? What movie, what movie makes this takes this from a place where it's just me watching something uh that actually happened and and and kind of have you know that feeling that you have when you like I whenever I watch something based on real life, especially a crime movie based on real life, I'm always like, oh my god, this actually happened, and I feel very again, that's that apprehension that I'm talking about.

Like it's like, ooh, what the hell? Uh, you know, I wanted to watch something that that would give me some some joy, and this movie certainly did that. So I'll start. So uh, you know, this movie opens on an animated opening credit sequence. Animated almost like you're watching uh Mad Men. Uh like very stylized, very like like the the you know, these figures like Yep, exactly. I know it. Yep, yep, you know.

[30:42] Alex Smolowe: Can I can I guess?

[30:43] Gillian Pensavalle: No, or do you want to keep going?

[30:44] Alex Smolowe: Don't go.

[30:45] Gillian Pensavalle: Uh well, well, who let me ask you this. Who does the score?

[30:49] Alex Smolowe: Uh um I shit. Who does it?

[31:06] Gillian Pensavalle: It's it's a lot you got the first name right. It's uh it's and it's two, it's like it's two names, one of whom This by the way, you are the fastest guess I think we've ever had. That this might be the fastest guess.

[31:17] Alex Smolowe: I could also be completely wrong.

[31:21] Gillian Pensavalle: No, but is it John Williams?

[31:22] Alex Smolowe: It is John Williams.

[31:25] Gillian Pensavalle: You know Jurassic Park didn't actually happen, right?

[31:28] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, I know that's not a real movie, Alex. Do you want me to keep going and then we see?

[31:32] Gillian Pensavalle: Then we can't.

[31:32] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so the score is true. I mean uh it is John Williams' score, and I will say it is one of the most beautiful John Williams scores. Um, in fact, I think this score was nominated for an Academy Award. Um I'll sing a little bit of it.

[31:49] Gillian Pensavalle: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[31:50] Alex Smolowe: Okay, I was right. I was right, I was right. Yep, yep, you know exactly what movie it is. And uh we we have this beautiful opening montage with this this animated uh scene, and uh you see this this gentleman, he'd be he's uh he's an airplane pilot, and then he's running, and no, now he's a doctor, and then he's running, and no, now he's a lawyer. And then we open up and it's a game show called To Tell the Truth, and we focus on our main character, Frank Abignale Jr. in Catch Me If You Can, directed by Steven Spielberg.

[32:21] Gillian Pensavalle: Dear dad, you always told me that an honest man has nothing to fear, so I'm trying my best not to be afraid. I'm sorry I ran away, but you don't have to worry. I'm gonna get it all back now, Daddy. I promise. I'm gonna get it all back.

[32:37] Nik Walker: Uh y'all, so this movie, I gotta say I figured this was I I was I was thinking about this one and I was like, you know what? Like 90% chance Nick's gonna.

[32:45] Alex Smolowe: Oh, absolutely.

[32:46] Nik Walker: This is such a great pick. Oh man, this is great. Yeah, it it really is one of those movies where you watch it and you're just I so you know, Alex, you talked about this, this idea of being, you know, of wanting to know why people do the things they do. That's so much of this true crime idea. And this movie kind of is perfect for that. And I, you know, I was w I I it really is this this character study of this kid and why and how he becomes a crook and how he stops. Like that's literally the film. How and why. And why, I think.

[33:16] Alex Smolowe: And why.

[33:17] Nik Walker: Yeah. And and and you know, I was I was reading up on it, and apparently, aside for, you know, aside from some like details, like there's definitely, you know, uh stuff about his family uh that didn't play out in the exact way that it did. Um, and there's one uh one thing where uh there's a there's an escape that he does through the toilet of a of an airplane, and apparently he did not escape through the toilet, he escaped through another hatch. Uh but other than that, he was like, Yeah, it's pretty accurate. Like, that's what I've heard is that it's actually the movie doesn't show, you know, nearly half of what actually happened. There's a lot more that they just couldn't include.

[33:56] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[33:56] Nik Walker: And it's so cut so catch me if you can is this story of a uh Frank Agnell Jr., young kid in New York who uh he you know good good kid, his dad is like uh, you know, g uh upper upper echelon of the of their local rotary club, and but you slowly realize uh that his dad, played by Christopher Walken, and what is an incredible performance, um uh is kind of a crook, is kind of a swindler, and and you know, kind of swindles his way to status.

[34:22] Gillian Pensavalle: Um, his mother and father get divorced, and that is like the big psychic wound for Frank, and that sends him running. And he wants to be a little bit more. I want you to go into the kitchen, sit at the table. Put a name down. You can take as long as you want, but when you come back into this room, I want to see a name on that line. Frank, just write that on my hand. This will all be over. It's gonna be okay. What name? Your mother or your father? Just put the name there. It's as simple as that. And don't look so scared. It's not a test. There's no wrong answer. And then, kind of as the perfect protege to his father, he ends up scamming his way around the country. He is forging checks, he ends up pretending to be this airplane pilot, um, then pretends to be a doctor, and then pretends to be a lawyer, and like is able to get away with it, and all the while is being chased by uh Tom Hanks as Carl Hanraddy, who is based on detective Joseph Shea, who did not want his name used in the film.

Um, so it really just kind of chronicles that. But I think the reasons I love this movie are myriad, but the things that come to mind immediately. Number one, Steven Spielberg, uh, as the man who I think, you know, I have a theory that a lot of directors can only tell one story and/or one theme. And I really do stick by this. And for Spielberg, I have always believed that the only story Spielberg tells is a story of parents and children. If you go through all of his movies, that is the theme, that is the story that comes back over and over really about fathers and sons, but definitely, you know, more uh zoomed-out parents and children. And this story is no less because the entire reason that Frank does what he does is to bring his family back together.

It's really the story of this broken home and this kid trying to prove that he is or will his mother and father to get back together, um, with you know, making them proud with how much he's accomplishing in the world. You know, and the most powerful scene of that, I think, is uh, you know, God, all the scene again, I say Christopher Walken has some amazing, amazing roles, but I was struck last night watching this, uh, or Amazing Mason scenes. I was struck last night watching this when uh it's the scene when he first takes his son out to dinner, or he's this or Frank takes uh Christopher Walken out to dinner. My son bought me a Cadillac today. I think that calls for a toast damn pilot in the sky.

It's not what you think. I'm just a co-pilot. See these people staring at you. These are the most powerful people in New York City. And they keep peeking over their shoulders, wondering where you're going tonight. Where you going, Frank? I had nobody staring at me. Some place exotic. Just tell me where you're going. Like, and just like the pride that he's feeling for his son, even though he's fully aware that his son is like doing massive cr like capital crimes. You know what I mean? Like it like just terrible, you know. Um, but Christopher Walken is, I mean, he just the pride in his eyes and the tears in his eyes later in the film. Also I'm gonna say, uh Leo, I think this is possibly one of my favorite Leo performances. I don't know what you two think about that.

[37:48] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, me too.

[37:49] Gillian Pensavalle: I l I love him in this.

[37:50] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, yeah.

[37:51] Gillian Pensavalle: It's it's quite the well, I I think yeah, Leo's got his two phases, right? There's young Leo, which is like the energetic, rambunctious, you know, sexy young Leo, and then there's like mature Leo, older Leo, who's a lot more serious about that. And I think this film falls in that nice in-between place where he's playing a youthful character, but there's actually some wisdom behind his eyes.

[38:11] Nik Walker: Yeah.

[38:12] Gillian Pensavalle: Um so uh yeah, I think I think it's uh you bime one of his. I think and I think you know, uh it really just comes down to um again, so many elements, but I just think that that the theme of this movie was so clear, and I think, and I and that's my qu you know, I'm interested to see when we get to your choices, how how your movies approach this, because you know, uh when you have a story that's this that's true to life, right? What is your responsibility to to authentically replicate it? Do you know what's nice about Abagnil's story is that there's not a need to inflate it right to make it interesting. There's not a need to make stuff up surrounding it, there's not a need to embellish relationships, drama, or anything because like the stuff he did in reality was so out there and crazy.

And and I think that because he never killed anybody, you know, he never like he did really, really illegal stuff uh that seems crazy and and is dangerous. Like, don't impersonate a doctor. That's dangerous. Please don't do that. Playing that's dangerous. Like he did pass the bar though. He did pass the bar. He did pass the bar. Like, like he's doing these things that are are illegal but also not terrible. Uh and it takes it takes a very unique person to pull it off. Um, you know, even one of the things it takes a very special person to pull it off. So it's it's um yeah.

[39:38] Gillian Pensavalle: Let me ask you this. Did you see did you see the musical Catch Me If You Can?

[39:44] Alex Smolowe: I didn't, but I I love Norbert Leo Butts so much.

[39:49] Gillian Pensavalle: Um so I I missed it in real time, but I I have listened to it, and I I was gonna I was gonna say you you you might be the only pick uh movie whose movie actually turned into a musical. I don't I can't say that for mine, Alex. I don't know about you.

[40:02] Alex Smolowe: I would doubt it.

[40:04] Gillian Pensavalle: Go ahead and say that that's probably true. But you know, it's so interesting because I I watched, I actually, you know, this is this is a terrible bad Broadway actor of me. Uh, but I watched a bootleg of it uh this morning. I did, I did, I did, I did. Because I just you know, I wanted to see. I was like, how does how the hell do you think you wanted to steal a copy about a movie of the colour? Talk about a true about stealing. It's such a true crime, guys. And I just admitted to it. Fuck. Oh my god. But I didn't, I didn't, I didn't film it and I didn't post it. I just watched it, you know, whatever.

[40:34] Nik Walker: You wait, you watched a version that someone filmed?

[40:36] Gillian Pensavalle: Yeah, I watched the version that someone filmed from like the from the Mes. It's so bad. It's so bad.

[40:41] Alex Smolowe: That's a whole other conversation because I know from you, from like my friends on stage that it's so you can see them, but like, how are there so many bootlegs of full musicals up there?

[40:52] Gillian Pensavalle: I don't know how they get away with it. People are sneaky, people are really sneaky and they get away with it.

[40:56] Nik Walker: I forgot you were talking about the musical. I'm like, you downloaded the movie that someone recorded what was in the theaters?

[41:04] Gillian Pensavalle: No, god damn it. No, okay. This makes a lot more sense than ever watching. Watching a bootleg of the movie about it.

[41:11] Alex Smolowe: You either had too much coffee or not enough coffee. I don't know.

[41:13] Gillian Pensavalle: Either way, either way, dude, it's great. No, but I was watching this, and it was interesting. I mean, because I I like you said, I love so uh Alex, if you don't know Norbert Leo Butts, uh, who you should know. I mean, did you watch Bloodline on Netflix?

[41:25] Alex Smolowe: Uh Bloodline is like so much.

[41:27] Gillian Pensavalle: Kevin plays Kevin, the brother uh the brother who works on the dock. He's phenomenal.

[41:33] Alex Smolowe: Okay.

[41:33] Gillian Pensavalle: Yeah. He's fantastic. He plays in the musical, he's Carl Hanrad. He's Tom Hanks. And um and he and he kills it. I mean, he kills it in. But it it was interesting though, because you know, I was watching, you know, watching the movie and then watching the musical. It was just the kind of thing, again, I I I'm not knocking anybody who who worked on that show. I'm not knocking all I actually love the performances. I think the music was great. But the thing that I just realized just in the translation, I was like, the movie, the movie is subtle and like it is a comedy. It is a straight comedy. There's no denying it's it's comedic chops. The movie is funny as hell, but I think why I buy it as a true crime movie is because it really is it allows itself to find like a groundedness and they and a um I don't know, just just a ev even with you know Spielberg, who is possibly one of the most stylized directors of our time.

Like, how many more you know, people is he gonna buy backlight? Do you know what I mean? With like with like a tinge of glow around their hair, like and that like swelling music, like Spielberg, we get it. We're supposed to be emotional right now. We get it. We get it, man. You love emotion, and that's great. But it was just watching this musical, I was like, I just lost that. And again, the musical's so imbeast, but I just I just I I sat there thinking like how just how would you capture that nuance on stage? And I think it's possible. I just think it, I think it would have to be a different production. But that said, really cool that they did it. But yeah, that that you know, catch me if you can. Um love that movie. And and and if you have not seen it, please check it out. Joyous film, joyous film.

[43:07] Alex Smolowe: It's a joyous film, you know, joyous.

[43:11] Gillian Pensavalle: Yeah, yeah, I like that. Cause it's also a time period too. The I mean the the way it's like 50s, 60s, right? Yeah, that's exactly right. Like around in there where this time where everything was so superficial that there's really there are really good stories from every direction where like the the reality that everyone thinks they're living in, you know, there's there's stuff going on underneath. And I think it's it's a positive, entertaining take on that as opposed to like the serial killers from that time. Yep, who there was really dark, terrible stuff going on that like they were trying to polish over in culture. Yeah, it's just like aesthetically beautiful. I love that whole era, that whole just the the look of it all. Um, like the madmen look. So it's just so like just how they they do all the costumes and the the uh the set design and just it's aesthetically so like oh and you get that right.

[44:02] Nik Walker: 100%.

[44:02] Gillian Pensavalle: It's like Matt, like I I'm obsessed with Janie Bryant, who's the who's the costume director from Mad Men and Deadwood and like a hundred other things, but she does that same thing, like she is very she's a genius, but she also does like all the research, so it never feels it just feels perfectly authentic and familiar. I didn't grow up in the 60s, but it feels like oh right, she's that's exactly right. It's amazing the attention to detail on Mad Men.

[44:24] Alex Smolowe: Oh, it's like stuff that's like normal stuff, right? Just like how do you how do you turn the clock back in every single way from the carpet to the costumes to the phones to like yes, yeah.

[44:34] Gillian Pensavalle: But that's but that's what you but that that is the kind of stuff you know that you need when you're gonna I think when you're gonna do one of these movies, because even if you're not trying to represent it exactly how it was, you need to have a feel of authenticity to your movie. Or to or an authentic at least authenticity to the world you're trying to create. And I think that that is definitely yeah.

[44:52] Nik Walker: So my movie also took place in the 50s.

[44:54] Gillian Pensavalle: Ooh.

[44:55] Nik Walker: Unfortunately, you will have to tune in next week to find out what that decision is because we are out of time. Nick has a plane to catch to JFK, Gillian Pensavalle will join us again to tell us what her choice is. I will tell you what my choice is, everybody will be happy, and the world will be a peaceful place next week on Little Justice.

[45:16] Gillian Pensavalle: Little Justice.

[45:20] Nik Walker: Little Justice.

[45:26] Gillian Pensavalle: Fuck yeah.