This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Alex Smolowe: Hey everybody, so we're back with part two.

[0:03] Gillian Pensavalle: Nick is actually in transit at the moment.

[0:06] Alex Smolowe: So I am here with our guest Gillian.

[0:08] Gillian Pensavalle: Hey, Alex.

[0:09] Alex Smolowe: Without Nick.

[0:10] Gillian Pensavalle: I always love a great opportunity to just remove Nick from the equation.

[0:16] Alex Smolowe: And this was perfect. So thank you for hopping back on quickly to...

[0:18] Gillian Pensavalle: Yeah, no, no problem.

[0:22] Alex Smolowe: Well, it seems like Nick removed himself. What did this clown do? Why are we here? This is his fault, right?

[0:27] Gillian Pensavalle: So Nick is coming out to California because his wife is in grad school in San Diego. So he's been pushing off the trip over and over again.

[0:37] Alex Smolowe: I've done this with Sarah too, actually. We went down and visited her and had a nice little chat that Nick had no control over.

[0:44] Gillian Pensavalle: Fantastic.

[0:45] Alex Smolowe: So he's traveling, and I guess somehow, I don't know how you lose your laptop at JFK. Like, maybe he left it on the conveyor belt, or I don't know. I don't understand how it's actually humanly possible to move.

[1:00] Gillian Pensavalle: It's funny at the airport.

[1:01] Alex Smolowe: It's funny because, and this was completely unplanned, listeners. Like I knew about that, I was recording with Alex not five minutes ago, but Patrick Hines has done that after we've come back from live shows or like conventions or whatever. There was one time, I think it was JFK, he left his laptop on the plane. It was like in the little front, the little in the seat compartment in front of you thing. And you're just like, one, we were so exhausted and just ready to get home. So on the way home, I understand it more. Maybe it makes sense. You know, because I feel like if you're going there. Because Nick's a cheap bastard, so he probably bought like a four-stop ticket for like eighty dollars.

I feel like by the time you're on your way home, you're so sick and tired of doing like the keys wallet phone dance. Like he's well at the phone, I've had like I can see, but of course, leave it to Nick on the way there. Also, that's just a nightmare, all jokes aside. That's a nightmare.

[1:53] Gillian Pensavalle: No, I just he's not having a great time based on the short conversation that I have with him. So before we dive into part two, we've already gone through Nick's choice of Catch Me If You Can, which is a great film, and we're moving on towards our choices now. Is there any Nick trivia that you have that you would want anybody to know?

[2:14] Gillian Pensavalle: Or he wouldn't want anybody to know, but we want everybody to know.

[2:17] Alex Smolowe: Oh my god. There's gotta be something.

[2:21] Gillian Pensavalle: There's gotta be, right? He told me a story about how he almost missed his cue in Hamilton because he was eating cereal in his dressing room. But he told he said that on the podcast, so he told everybody. But I was like, Nick, really, you know, Tommy Cale listens to this, right? Like, cereal, cereal is almost what delayed the show. Cereal.

[2:39] Gillian Pensavalle: Nick's Bachelor Party, I planned. We rented a house in upstate New York. The only request that he had was cereal. So we went up, we rented a whole passenger van with like 15 people and went to this weird house in the middle of nowhere, and we had probably 15 or 16 boxes of cereal, and we bought a bunch of nerf guns and just hung out in this like weird forest mansion all weekend, and it was actually pretty amazing. The last time Nick was on the podcast, Nick and Sarah were on the podcast, and he was talking about cereal, and the look on her face, I was just like, Sarah, she was like, it's messy. It's like there's just like cereal crumbs everywhere. Like this cereal thing is kind of it like it haunts him in some way, but it's his like major vice is cereal.

[3:27] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, he it's because he refuses to grow up.

[3:30] Gillian Pensavalle: That's it.

[3:30] Alex Smolowe: That's exactly right. So, with that being said, onward to part two.

[3:37] Gillian Pensavalle: Little Justice.

[3:41] Alex Smolowe: Little Justice.

[3:44] Gillian Pensavalle: So I guess I'll just line it up because I've already started. I don't know if you guys are gonna get this or not. So I wanted to pick something because we've got, you know, a true crime expert in here, and we've got Steven Spielberg Walker here. So I figured I wanted to find something a little more obscure, a little more that's like a really great movie that tells the story really well that maybe a lot of people haven't seen, and they should. So this film starts on 50s old newsreel footage. And it is a tourism video for Christchurch, New Zealand. Beautiful streets, people riding bikes. It's all very positive, and it goes on for a while. It's just a couple straight minutes. The schools are great, and here they are going to church, and here's Sally doing this, and everybody's happy and all that, and then all of a sudden, in the span of like 10 seconds, the music just gets really moldy and dark and all that, and you cut to a forest, the screen widens up, and there's two girls running through the forest just screaming their heads off, screaming their heads off, and they're rushing along this hiking path.

Wait, rush up a hill, wait, screaming, screaming, screaming. They break out to the top at this house, and this lady comes running out. Like, what's wrong? What's wrong? Alexander cuts, and they're just staring into the camera, screaming, covered in blood. Is this movie about how somebody's died?

[5:11] Gillian Pensavalle: Is this directed by Peter Jackson?

[5:12] Alex Smolowe: It is.

[5:13] Gillian Pensavalle: Yes! And the movie is Heavenly Creatures.

[5:22] Alex Smolowe: Oh, I wish James Mason would do a religious picture. He'd be perfect as Jesus.

[5:29] Gillian Pensavalle: Daddy says the Bible's a load of bunkum.

[5:33] Alex Smolowe: But we're all going to heaven.

[5:35] Gillian Pensavalle: I'm not. I'm going to the fourth world.

[5:41] Alex Smolowe: It's an absolute paradise of music, art, and pure enjoyment.

[5:47] Gillian Pensavalle: James will be there.

[5:49] Alex Smolowe: And Mario.

[5:51] Gillian Pensavalle: Only they'll be saints.

[5:54] Alex Smolowe: Saint Mario.

[5:56] Gillian Pensavalle: I was afraid this was gonna happen.

[5:59] Alex Smolowe: I haven't seen it.

[6:00] Gillian Pensavalle: No, it's fine.

[6:01] Alex Smolowe: That's fine.

[6:02] Gillian Pensavalle: I was afraid of this.

[6:03] Alex Smolowe: That's fine. That's exactly- I mean, I'm glad that I picked something so out there.

[6:09] Gillian Pensavalle: Yeah, you really should see this movie.

[6:12] Alex Smolowe: It sounds like I'm gonna watch it through my hands. It sounds terrifying.

[6:15] Gillian Pensavalle: No, no, no, it's not. So it's actually so the movie is about two girls, Juliet Hume and Pauline Parker, who are real people, who form a friendship, right? One of them's kind of this social outcast girl, she's always angry and never talking to people, and this girl from England moves into town and they become fast friends to the point where you're not really sure what the relationship even is. It's based on a real crime where they form such a bond that when the parents decided to split them apart and they wanted to take this girl back across overseas, they came up with a plan to kill the one's mother, and they did it. Fast forward for, you know, after the story takes place, they kill the mother, they go to jail for five years.

When she gets out, when Juliet Hume gets out, she takes another name and Perry and moves away and becomes like a world-famous true crime author. It's not in the movie that that happens, but in reality, the person that this is based on wrote like best-selling novels for her entire career.

[7:19] Alex Smolowe: Oh shit.

[7:20] Gillian Pensavalle: After only these surveys. Yeah, crazy. But so the movie is Peter Jackson who did Lord of the Rings, right? It's the only movie he did in between his early like monster creature features, Dead Alive or Braindead and Bad Taste, which are like puppet blood, crazy cartoony horror, you know, almost horror comedies with how crazy they are. And he did one, he did the Frighteners too, but this was like his one serious movie, and it got nominated for best original screenplay, and I think it's what gave the studio confidence that he could go off and do Lord of the Rings. It's also the feature film debut of Kate Winslet and Melanie Linsky, who play the two girls. It's phenomenal.

[8:04] Alex Smolowe: So the story why I love it as a true crime story is because you know from the beginning, if you're watching it, there's a little card that prompts it. Like you know what happens at the end, so you're waiting for it. It doesn't get to the point where they decide to do it until the very end. Like it's not like halfway through the movie, the one's like we should kill them, and they plot it out, and it's not like a murder story. It's about these two girls who really don't fit in anywhere, really finding this bond with each other, really only understanding each other, and the movie uses fantasy sequences and things. They like decide to write a fantasy book together, and they live in this world that they've developed, and their reality starts blending with it.

So the character, you know, the parents and the teachers and everybody they're interacting with, they start to kind of cast them into this fantasy story they're telling. Kind of got like a labyrinth vibe almost. And it's a fascinating way to kind of portray the inner turmoil of teenage girls.

[9:02] Gillian Pensavalle: Charles!

[9:03] Alex Smolowe: Gina!

[9:04] Gillian Pensavalle: It's great to see you here.

[9:13] Alex Smolowe: Careful, Gina. We almost lost you.

[9:21] Gillian Pensavalle: For you, my lady. And everything starts working against them, and the you know, it's the parents who initially all the parents are good people in the beginning. They all start to, you know, oh, well, one's cheating and one's angry and one's doing this and one's doing that, and they get so the the rest of the world stops making sense to them. So they only have each other, they cling tighter to each other. And so when they're finally torn apart at the end, it's like this tightly wound bomb. It's a 3X story with the tragic end.

[9:51] Alex Smolowe: Your mother is rather a miserable woman. Isn't she?

[9:57] Gillian Pensavalle: I thought for hours about whether Carmelita should accept Bernard's marriage proposal. I think she knows what's going to happen. She doesn't appear to bear us any grudge. But in the end I decided against it. I thought it would spoil all their fun.

[10:15] Alex Smolowe: And you and it brings you to understand how they could kill somebody. Right? Because it's threatening the only thing that's giving them that's making the world make any kind of sense. Because they feel like if they didn't do it, then they would die.

[10:28] Gillian Pensavalle: Yeah, Alex. Talk a little bit about the world. Tell Julian a little bit about the more about the world that they create with each other. Because like that, I think the fantastical element of this is amazing.

[10:38] Alex Smolowe: So Weta Workshop was created for this film. And I think it's fascinating because it's not it's a drama, right? It's a character drama, it's not a fantasy movie, it's not a horror movie, it's not you wouldn't think that one the leading special effects studio in the world would have started with a story about, you know, teenage lesbians. Right. They've created they they start writing about this world. It's called Baravnia. It's like a fantasy kingdom, you know, with kings and princes and swords and all these things. And then in addition, they start making these little clay characters. And so what they do is they actually they built an entire set in costumes with people who look like human-sized clay characters.

It's insane. And they just have these girls. It's crazy. It's like not, you know, it's beyond, it's not real looking, but it's just intric like they look like just giant poorly molded clay figurines, but they really look like that. Like the costumes are so well done.

[11:46] Gillian Pensavalle: And it's almost I mean, it kind of borders this line that I think yeah, and it makes me think of another Peter Jackson film that I don't know if everyone's or maybe you guys did you did any either of you see the Lovely Bones?

[11:59] Alex Smolowe: No, I actually never did.

[12:00] Gillian Pensavalle: So Lovely Bones was Lovely Bones is pretty much like kind of the same, a lot of the same concepts, right? Like you take take a this, you know, obviously the murder in the Lovely Bones isn't real, but you take a murder and you make it into a you bring in like elements of magical realism and you just make it a very interesting, you know, crazy world. Stanley Tucci was nominated for best supporting as the killer in that movie. And he's terrifying, but like it really is these are these things where it blends kind of what I think Peter Jackson is best at, which is like taking elements that it at turns, like right instantaneously, can go from heartwarming and like beautiful to like slightly disturbing.

[12:44] Gillian Pensavalle: And that's what this, you know, when you're watching these young women dance in this clay castle-like thing. I mean, I just remember being like, what the hell? Like, it's very strange. And like the smiles are just plastered on these guys. It's yeah, they're, it's very creepy. It's creepy, it's very creepy. And they start to cast the characters against it, right? And they start to see, you know, one of the girls goes to see a psychologist because her mother is worried that she's gay. So she sends her to have this conversation with a psychologist about how it's, you know, it's just a phase or whatever. And by the end of the thing, she's fantasizing about a clay guy coming up and stabbing him through the back, and they go through the whole sequence, then it cuts, and none of that actually happens.

Perhaps you could think about spending more time with boys. You don't want to hurt Juliet's feelings, but I'm sure she'd understand you're having other interests outside of the friendship. I mean, there's all sorts of clubs and hobbies that you get, bloody fool. And suddenly you understand why they can come and suddenly you understand, you know, and I mean, I guess it's something that's been beaten to death in other things, but like the way it's used is very poignant visual language. Where you follow these girls in a positive way through their fantasy land, and you get their connection to it, and it connects each other, right? They start writing it when they get separated, they start writing each other letters and the voices of these characters they've created.

Like they really use this world to be their language, so when they bring it into their own situations, you understand what it means to them and how it relates. It's like without needing to, like if you're trying to explain how do you get somebody to murder, how do you push somebody to murder, especially a 15-16-year-old girl, it tackles it in such a unique and poignant way. I'm riveted by this. I'm riveting. Please, please go watch the movie because it really is a beautiful Heavenly Creatures. Heavenly Creatures. It's yeah, it's phenomenal. And Peter Jackson. I mean, I won't say it's my favorite Peter Jackson because Lord of the Rings, but second favorite.

[15:12] Gillian Pensavalle: I was picked up at 2 p.m. I've been very sweet and good. I have worked out a little more of our plan. Peculiarly enough, I have no qualms of conscience. I rose late and helped Mother vigorously this morning. Deborah rang, and we decided to use a rock and a stocking rather than a sandbag. We discussed the moira fully. I feel very keyed up as though I were planning a surprise party. Mother has fallen in with everything beautifully, and the happy event is to take place tomorrow afternoon. Next time I write in this diary, mother will be dead. Yeah, I know this is gonna be controversial. I might throw King Kong in there, and I know that you're gonna kill me for that. King Kong. No, no, no. No, no, no. I love it.

I love King Kong. Good film. Good film. I have nothing bad to say about King Kong. I have nothing phenomenal to say about King Kong. I know. I know. Nick, did I ever tell you a secret place? Nick, did I ever tell you my Peter Jackson story of when I met him? Uh, you're gonna tell me now. Okay. And Alex, for you too. I'm gonna take, um, this is gonna be quick, but of course it relates to true crime because like this is just who I am. So a dear, dear, dear friend of mine and of Mike's is Damien Echols, and Damien Echols is a person who was wrongfully imprisoned and on death row. So he was in prison for 18 years, and I think 75 days, and 10 of those years was solitary. And it's a case, it's called the West Memphis 3.

That's his case. And Peter Jackson, there were a Paradise Lost series Joe Berlinger did that was the HBO documentary, and then West of Memphis came out, but there was a lot of celebrity attention on this case because of the HBO series. And Peter Jackson was one of the people who came forward and helped bankroll the investigations and helped get them out of prison. So Damien, Jesse, and Jason had to sign an Alfred plea, which means that they maintain their innocence, but quote, plead guilty just so they can get out because Damien was dying in prison. So they're out. But so, and that Peter Jackson, it's gonna cost a lot of money to do the investigation, especially when the state of Arkansas wants to kill you and they don't want to admit any wrongdoing.

So Peter Jackson, it was like Peter Jackson, Johnny Depp, Henry Rollins, the Dixie Chicks. I'm sorry, the chicks, Natalie Maines, especially. Natalie Maines is such a badass hero, but she was very, very vocal. And yeah, so we went to one of Damien's art shows in LA, and because Lori and Lori, his wife Lori, and Damien got very, very close with Fran and Pete, as they call them, which is so bizarre. We'll be at dinner, and Lori's like, oh, Fran and Pete. And I'm like, you mean like Fran Walsh and Peter Jackson, like that, Fran and Pete, cool. Because they're just like friends. And so he was there, and so Mike is such a fan of Lord of the Rings. And so we met him, and Lori was like, you know, here, here are the sweet friends we've told you about Mike and Gillian.

And we just said to him, like, we didn't talk about his movies at all. We just said like, thank you for saving our friends' life and doing what we could to like get him out. And so Peter Jackson was like really lovely and like came to Damien's art show. I think it was in LA at the time, and he was just a really, he's a cool guy, and he threw his money at something very meaningful. And so I just, I always like telling that story. Not because I, it's not like any street cred for me, it's or a humble brag for me. It's cool that I met Peter Jackson, but it's even cooler that he threw his money at the cause of getting three innocent men out of prison.

[18:48] Alex Smolowe: Oh, that's what we want to hear. That's what we like. We like, I like those stories where people are good people. I really do think that's a great thing. That's the goal. I want to have as much money to get all the thousands of innocent people in prison. I want them out. That's what I'm saying. Can we please do that? Can we do that? Yeah, yeah. I want to save all the animals and get all the innocent people out of prison. That's my whole thing. All right, ladies and gentlemen, we're gonna take a quick advertisement break to pay for things. But when we come back, we will have some money, money, money, movie choices for you. We will be right back.

[19:24] Gillian Pensavalle: And we are back. We are back, we are back. And in the meantime, I want to hear about your movie, which Alex, I have to admit, I do believe I know, so I'm not gonna—

[19:27] Alex Smolowe: She sounds very sure about it. You know exactly what it's gonna be.

[19:38] Gillian Pensavalle: Yeah, so my film is, it opens on July 4th. And it's a tracking shot, and it's from the—we're looking at the passenger side of a car. And a car, it's like going through a neighborhood, and we're going house by house by house by house. And finally we stop on a house. Does someone have a guess? What am I hearing?

[20:02] Alex Smolowe: I, well, I didn't choose this. I would have chosen it, and it's another—like literally you guys chose the two that I was gonna choose until I realized nah, there's too good a chance. It is my favorite movie other than That Thing You Do and Clue.

[20:18] Gillian Pensavalle: Um, it's what it's—it actually has to do with what True Crime Obsessed was originally gonna be. Can I say it?

[20:24] Alex Smolowe: Go for it.

[20:25] Gillian Pensavalle: Yes, please. Zodiac.

[20:26] Alex Smolowe: Dear editor, this is the murderer of the two teenagers last Christmas at Lake Herman and the girl on the 4th of July near the golf course in Vallejo. To prove I killed them, I shall state some facts, which only I and the police know. Christmas, brand name of ammo, super X. Ten shots were fired. The boy was on his back with his feet to the car. The girl. Here is part of a cipher. The other two parts of this cipher are being mailed to the editors of the Vallejo Times and SF Examiner. I want you to print this cipher on the front page of your paper. In this cipher is my identity. If you do not print this cipher by the afternoon of Fry, F R Y, 1st of August 69, I will go on a kill rampage, Fry night. I will cruise around all weekend killing lone people in the night, then move on to kill again until I end up with a dozen people over the weekend. It's unsigned except for a symbol.

[21:32] Gillian Pensavalle: Yeah. Boom. I love this movie so hard. It is okay. Can I just—I've been—can I just talk about it for a second?

[21:41] Alex Smolowe: Go off.

[21:42] Gillian Pensavalle: It's time. The time is now. So I read Helter Skelter like way too young. And Charles Manson and that whole story is what got me into true crime reading Helter Skelter. And then the next book I read was Robert Graysmith's book. And like I'm talking notes in the margin. I was gonna get the guy. Like from a young age, I've always wanted to get the guy. So when Zodiac came out, and it's like Mark Ruffalo, who I'm obsessed with, Chloe Sevigny, who's incredible, and no one gives her any credit for that comedic performance in Big Love. She was phenomenal in that show. We have Robert Downey Jr., we have Jake Gyllenhaal. It's just, it is, it's incre—it's the best. But I saw that movie at midnight when like no one was in the theater.

I went to like the 1201 showing of Zodiac, and I felt it was so—because I'm a purist, right? And this is what we do on True Crime Obsessed. Like, if we're gonna be laughing at shit revolving this story, I'm gonna get every name right, I'm gonna get every date right. I wanna do, I wanna do everyone as much justice as I possibly can as a dumb podcaster. So if we're gonna be laughing about the lawyer, I'm gonna get the victim's name right. You know what I mean? That's very, very important to me to not be like, um, yeah, I think her name was Kathy or whatever. Like, no, I'm gonna know her fucking middle name. I'm gonna Google it, I'm gonna make sure we know that. So I remember being in the theater and thinking, I've seen this before.

That's how accurate some of the scenes in Zodiac were compared to the book. Because it felt like, wait, where I was having deja vu, and I realized no, it's just Fincher being Fincher. That's it. It's just like dark and 70s and wonderful. And so I think it's really about not just trying to figure out who this guy is, it's what the obsession with true crime and the obsession with this case did to the people reporting it and the people who were affected by it who were not the victims. And it sounds cruel to say, because I think they did the victims justice in Zodiac, which I think is very, very important. But it's how, you know, Robert Downey Jr.'s character, like Paul Avery, he became obsessed with the case.

Robert Graysmith, Dave Toschi. Like every year when Dave Toschi, the anniversary of the Paul Stein murder on Washington and Cherry, like to up until his death, every year on that date, the real Toschi would go to that corner and just sit there and try to like get something new, feel something new, like anything to help the case. This consumed people, and it is—I think it's the only—it's two and a half hours, and my only complaint is that it's too short.

[24:17] Alex Smolowe: Somebody else is here.

[24:19] Gillian Pensavalle: It is a public park.

[24:26] Alex Smolowe: Well, we're very good looking.

[24:28] Gillian Pensavalle: We're behind that tree.

[24:30] Alex Smolowe: All right, so we're taking a leak.

[24:35] Gillian Pensavalle: He's coming towards us.

[24:39] Alex Smolowe: Oh my god, he has a gun.

[24:42] Gillian Pensavalle: Don't move.

[24:43] Alex Smolowe: Can I ask you this? Can you speak a little bit about the depiction of the murders of Brian Hartnell and Cecilia Shepard? Because that scene, that sequence I can't watch it.

[24:56] Gillian Pensavalle: Yes, I can't watch it.

[24:57] Alex Smolowe: Talk to me about that.

[25:00] Gillian Pensavalle: Well, I will as much as I can. It's the—it's what I skip every time.

[25:04] Alex Smolowe: Yep.

[25:05] Gillian Pensavalle: And I skip it every time. And my Mike knows it's coming, and he gets the remote. He knows I'm very, yeah, I'm very sensitive to that.

[25:13] Gillian Pensavalle: But so what happens is, and this is very, this was one of the things, um, one of the scenes that made me feel like I've seen this before. Nope, it's just Fincher perfectly recreating one of the most terrifying things that's ever happened. So this couple is out at Lake Barriessa, it's the middle of the day. There are no real trees, they're like yards away from any kind of tree or brush area. They are out in the open, it's the middle of the day. Everyone on earth is like, oh, they're safe. It's two in the afternoon. Like there's no way any harm can come to them. Because that's what we think, right? It's the middle of the day. Outside, there's like nowhere to hide here, it's totally fine. And this person approaches them wearing this horrifying outfit, this mask and all this stuff, and he brutally murders them.

First, he lies to them and says, you know, I just want money or whatever, and the boyfriend tries really hard to calm down his girlfriend, and the way Fincher films it is so moving and so effective because the terror in that actress is absolutely phenomenal. Unbelievable. The absolute terror in her eyes. It's a brutal stabbing. So I can't watch it. It's too much. It's too, it's too real. It's too scary. It's too sad. Like, fuck this guy. Fuck the Zodiac. Like, he sucks. And you see it from the boyfriend's point of view. And she's crying, and then like he goes back and he stabs the boyfriend and he stabs her. And it's just like, it is everyone, it is such a fear that's realized. Because again, it's the middle of the day.

No, everyone thinks you're safe when all the lights are on, and you're not. And the 70s were the worst. Like, we just did I'll Be Gone in the Dark on True Crime Obsessed. Like, and we came out of doing that series, and the big takeaway was fuck the 70s. Like, nobody cared about women, like, rape was an afterthought, and the 70s were just like a nightmare. So that is the scene that I skipped. But it's a very important murder in the case. So I understand why Fincher took all that time to show us that. No, it truly is a moment where you just were number one, because of how, because of the attention to detail this movie, yeah, you know that this is, it's just a scene that just brings home the gravity of exactly what this person was doing.

And not only that, but you talk about respect to the victims. I mean, it really, you know, there it actually is not, it's not gory, it's not, that's kind of why it's so effective, is it's not about the amount of blood or the, it's just about watching these two poor kids have to watch each other get stabbed, and it's just like unfucking believably uncomfortable. And the thing is, like, ruffle, like Dave Toschi, who was another just brilliant mind, he was the main inspector on the case. They called him inspector back then, but he says, you know, he was too Zodiac was too busy killing the women that he forgets to finish off the men. So we have like eyewitness statements, of course, traumatized, injured, near death, but two of the boys lived, and so they can tell these stories and it's just like it really hits home as a woman too, because she's the one in that scene, she's the one who notices there's some guy like lurking around the trees.

Yep. And the boyfriend, and it's no sh, I'm it's I'm not victim blaming at all, but this is just life. And the boyfriend's like, it's fine. Again, it's two in the afternoon, don't worry about it. Yeah. But as a woman like I say this on True Crime Obsessed all the time, and Patrick is always like, Oh my God, to be a woman in this world is a nightmare. And I'm like, it sure is. But like you always know the guy in the room or the guys in the bar to have your eye on. Always. Like the ladies listening at home, they know exactly what I'm saying. It's always like, All right, I don't like that guy. So I'm gonna know where he is all the time, and I'm probably not gonna use the bathroom until he's far enough away from it where I feel safe that I can walk there without being, you know, whatever.

And so that felt very real too, that she was the one that was like, she felt it. She knew, 'cause that's what it's like to be a woman in the world. That's fucking awful. And I mean, I all I can say is, you know, fuck that. And I'm so sorry that that's a real. No, and it's the truth because, you know, even even with Sarah, you know, we, you know, there's so much that I have realized that, you know, even as a black man, I'm still a man and have not had to deal with. And the idea that you walk in these spaces and cannot feel safe or can't or have to have an awareness about you. Cannot ever let your guard down. And I think that speaks to so much of what the movie is talking about too, was this time when we didn't understand.

I mean, that, you know, I think the beauty of having true crime be a genre or a podcast genre or just a genre that people are interested in now. You know what I mean? Because I think that's kind of what made the Zodiac and other crimes of that era so astounding was that, you know, I mean, that's the entirety of Once Upon a Time in Hollywood is like the destruction of innocence, right? The idea that this world is safe and happy and free and everybody's here to help you. Like that's finding out that nope, there's people who are just really fucked up. Yeah. And there are like really amazing cinematic choices and things that Fincher does. Like every time, because we see the Zodiac a few times in this, and he's played by a different actor every time.

So it's not like the guy who plays Arthur Lee Allen is playing the role of the murderer at Lake Barriessa, Darlene Farron, Ioni Sky. Like he's not, it's not the same actor because we never see his face, we just hear his voice. And because there were so many different composites, and again, these people were dealing with trauma after encountering this person, or you know, that great scene, that infuriating scene with Mark Ruffalo talking to the kids on the stairs after the Paul Stein murder, and they're like, he looked normal. And he's like, What normal? Like, and they of course they said it was a black guy first, and so there were two cops who actually walked by him. Like that's all true. Like they walked by the Zodiac killer who killed Paul Stein.

Like, if we could have just, if we didn't blame the black guy right away, we could have saved so many lives. You know what I mean? Like, like the call went out that it was like an African American guy. And so these cops see this like this piece of shit like lumbering along, and they just, they kind of did a double take. And instead of questioning him, they just let him go because over the radio, the description was something else. It was corrected quickly, but not fast enough. In the 70s, how fast can that go? Oh my god. You know? I'm gonna be honest. I'm sitting here in my apartment, and as we have the discussion, the way that I'm looking over my shoulder into the hallway behind me. I just wanna, I just want to be clear about that because that's my life now.

Check the lock of Lafrodus. Absolutely checking that lock. So here's how Zodiac relates to True Crime Obsessed. When Patrick and I became really good friends and we're going to happy hours six days a week or whatever, and our conversations went to true crime, and I had this thing. I was like, I want to make a true crime podcast, and I don't know what it's gonna be. But so I called Patrick and it was kind of a thing. Like I went into our room and I was like, Mike, I'm gonna make this phone call. It was like a serious phone call. It was like a big like kind of pitch, but I didn't have a pitch. And so I was like, I want to make a true crime podcast, I want to do it with you. I don't know what it is.

Let's get drinks and figure it out. And the first idea for the podcast was we're gonna solve the Zodiac. And it was like I made a graphic based on the ciphers, like the code that he sent to the paper. I was like, I'm gonna be like Robert Graysmith, I'm gonna go to the library. Like it was a whole, I was like, we're gonna do this, we're gonna fucking solve the Zodiac, we're gonna get him. And then we realized very like a week into my research, I was like, I feel like there are more qualified people to do this. I feel like it has to be solved somehow. It kind of already is, but I feel like maybe I am just making a mockery of this case. If I was like, I think I just love the movie, and I think I'm just fascinated by the case. Like, this is really not on me. And that was like the original, original idea for True Crime Obsessed was to solve the Zodiac.

[33:38] Alex Smolowe: I mean, listen, if there's anyone who could do it, it's absolutely you. There's no doubt in my mind that you can. I mean, I don't think Fincher's wrong. I think I leaned, I always lean towards Arthur Lee Allen. I did when I read the book, and I know Graysmith is biased in that sense, but come on. Come on. It seemed, the case is definitely made, and especially that gentleman I have to look his name up because he always plays this exact role. Is he the one who played Drew Carey's brother on The Drew Carey Show? That guy's in everything and he's excellent in everything he's in.

[34:15] Gillian Pensavalle: Yeah, truly excellent. I'm a woman. He was also in Big Love with Chloe Sevigny.

[34:19] Alex Smolowe: So he's, yeah.

[34:20] Gillian Pensavalle: And my favorite, my favorite one that he was in. It's John Something Something. It's another, it's like Arthur Lynch.

[34:26] Alex Smolowe: John Carroll Lynch.

[34:27] Gillian Pensavalle: John Carroll Lynch, a brilliant actor. I first saw John Carroll Lynch in, uh, this is gonna make you guys mad. Remember, uh, was it Volcano with Tommy Lee Jones?

[34:38] Alex Smolowe: Is that the name of the movie?

[34:39] Gillian Pensavalle: Yeah. Where he, uh, love Volcano he plays a subway worker who is trapped underground and like has to, is like getting people off this subway as the lava comes in, and there's this epic sequence where he jumps so like the lava has now gone under the train, right? He has to jump to like the side of the tracks that doesn't have lava, but there's still a little girl on the train. So he picks up the little girl, and everybody's like, jump, you can do it! He's like, I'm not gonna make it. They're like, you can do it. And this man, and it's like, it actually is very heartbreaking because he jumps and he just does not make it. Like literally lands in the lava and is like melting, but uses his last ounce of consciousness and strength to like chuck this girl across. It was br and he's just like, and you watch him die and you're like, God damn it, John Carroll Lynch, you're amazing.

[35:34] Alex Smolowe: Oh my god.

[35:37] Gillian Pensavalle: Oh my god, Mike just came in and brought the dogs. Holy crap, we're not on camera.

[35:44] Alex Smolowe: We're no, no cameras here, but it's brilliant that you need to appreciate this.

[35:47] Gillian Pensavalle: It would be Nik Walker because Trankster and Nik Walker. Good old-fashioned, uh, little bit.

[35:52] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[35:52] Gillian Pensavalle: You did sabotage, but it's a brilliant the stairs with a Sheepoo in my arms.

[35:56] Alex Smolowe: And Pete, the mix of everything.

[35:58] Gillian Pensavalle: Yeah.

[35:58] Alex Smolowe: I lured him with the same.

[35:59] Gillian Pensavalle: So welcome, Seb.

[36:00] Alex Smolowe: Well, and I can't even see them, but they say hi.

[36:02] Gillian Pensavalle: Well, Mike can't hear you because I have headphones on, but I mean, what I was gonna ask was now that he's here, I mean tell because I wanted to ask really quickly for our listeners what you're up to, and part of what you're up to involves Mike. I wanted to do that at the end because I still have more to say about Zodiac, but we'll pitch what we're working on.

[36:19] Alex Smolowe: Well, amazing guys, I can't wait to come on.

[36:21] Gillian Pensavalle: And all, uh, the only other thing I can say is, oh my god, stop it. Please stop. This is fucking terrifying. I can't do that. I can't see the words terrifying. I'm already, like I said, I'm staring over my shoulder like I can't, I can't deal with that right now.

[36:37] Alex Smolowe: Gillian, thank you. As a fellow editor, I apologize, and also thank you for what you're going to do.

[36:42] Gillian Pensavalle: We got a hell of a weekend ahead of me.

[36:43] Alex Smolowe: No, yeah.

[36:44] Gillian Pensavalle: This might look, look, what I mean, this might need to be a two-part or y'all, because this is, we got some stuff.

[36:44] Alex Smolowe: We got some stuff to talk about.

[36:50] Gillian Pensavalle: I have, I have more, I have like a lot more. Here's the thing, Zodiac was like before Hamilton was like Zodiac was the thing where I was like, does anyone, and like I'd walk into a party and be like, does anyone want to talk about Zodiac at all? Like the movie or the case? Like I just, they'd be like, no. And I'm like, okay, well, is there a dog here for me to hang out with? Or like what, what am I supposed to do here exactly?

[37:08] Alex Smolowe: Oh my god.

[37:09] Gillian Pensavalle: Um, but there are other like little, little tiny things that I love that Fincher does, like just little moments where like even in the, um, because like that intro that I was describing, like when they go, it's like the Darlene Farron murder, and um after that, it's like the pre, it's like before the credits, and then they have the bump bum bump bump. They have that Santana song on, like while like they do like the on-screen text credits. And we follow, like I love that Fincher's like, fuck this, we have way too much to get to. This movie's gonna be two and a half hours long. Like they, we just, we're like immediately at the San Francisco Chronicle, which I just love. Like he doesn't waste any time.

Oh, as we're, as we're seeing the cre, the opening credits on text, it's like the old typewriter thing, and as they fade out, they fade into the characters of the code that he wrote, which is just a cool, like just so my speed, like just it ticks like every box, every box on the Will Gillian love this list.

[38:02] Gillian Pensavalle: And um, and little things like how Dave Toskey used to wear like there's a moment where Jake Gyllenhaal as Robert Greysmith says to uh Nick's boyfriend Robert Downey Jr., who is basically playing like a drunk Tony Stark in the 70s, which is phenomenal. Like it's that's exactly who Paul Avery was in this version of it. Um, and cause he's like in awe of Dave Toski, and and uh Jake Gyllenhaal goes, Oh, he wears his his gun like bullet. And Robert Downey Jr. says McQueen stole that from Toski. And that's true. Like, that's a real story. Like, Toskey wore his his uh holster around his his arm, like on the shoulder or whatever. And Steve McQueen, like Dave Toskey was so big even before Zodiac, like he was like such a mainstay that Steve McQueen stole that as bullet, which I think is like such a cool little throw, almost throwaway line, but it's very cool.

[38:52] Alex Smolowe: Well, talk to me about this then. Uh talk to me about this, because with these three, you know, you have Dave Toski, you have uh Robert Greysmith, you have Paul Avery. These three people who are coming at this thing from three distinct sides. I mean, you know, uh was I mean and one of the things that I I think really hit me when I watched the movie was how I'm not gonna say loose their connection. It was very like LA Confidential, where these people like because you know, from the way from the way the movie was advertised, not knowing anything about the true crime of it all. I was like, okay, I'm gonna watch Robert Downey Jr., Jake Gyllenhaal, Mark Ruffalo solve a case. But it's not yeah, if they're they're very much in their own universes, like there's no that's kind of the thing that I think keeps it in a true crime world.

It's like David Fincher very much resists the urge to like team them all up and bring them all together to solve the crime. It's like, nope, they did they they kind of cross paths. You know, Paul Avery and Robert Graysmith had this, you know, maybe kind of friendship that you kind of like see hints of uh, you know, them at the bar together.

[39:53] Gillian Pensavalle: Um, I love that.

[39:55] Alex Smolowe: Oh, it's I love that this can no longer be ignored.

[39:59] Gillian Pensavalle: I didn't know he was gonna send another code.

[40:01] Alex Smolowe: I just guessed.

[40:03] Gillian Pensavalle: Just guessed.

[40:04] Alex Smolowe: The first one seemed too easy.

[40:05] Gillian Pensavalle: This can no longer be ignored.

[40:07] Alex Smolowe: What is that you're drinking?

[40:09] Gillian Pensavalle: It's an aqua velva.

[40:11] Alex Smolowe: We wouldn't make fun of it if you tried it.

[40:17] Gillian Pensavalle: Oh, it's a good thing.

[40:19] Alex Smolowe: That is one of my favorite, and that of course became one of my favorite drinks because it is absolutely delicious and it looks cool and blue.

[40:25] Gillian Pensavalle: I've never had one.

[40:25] Alex Smolowe: It's a good idea.

[40:26] Gillian Pensavalle: It's so good.

[40:26] Alex Smolowe: This can no longer be ignored.

[40:27] Gillian Pensavalle: And Robert Graysmith with the truth says you wouldn't make fun of it if you tried it.

[40:31] Alex Smolowe: And then cut to drunk Robert Downey Jr. with six empty glasses around him. I'm like, yeah, that's me.

[40:36] Gillian Pensavalle: Oh my god.

[40:36] Alex Smolowe: Oh my god.

[40:37] Gillian Pensavalle: No, but so so I mean, but yeah, so it really is this thing, right? Where they where they don't they never really kind of got on the same page, it seems like they no, and and Paul Avery and Toski were at odds with each other because Paul Avery was there to sell papers, you know.

[40:51] Alex Smolowe: Like he covered crime in Vallejo, as he says.

[40:54] Gillian Pensavalle: He, you know, was the crime writer.

[40:55] Alex Smolowe: And so he all he like loved the the attention and the drama of it all.

[41:00] Gillian Pensavalle: And Dave Toskey was there to get the guy.

[41:02] Alex Smolowe: And Robert Graysmith was almost, you know, as the cartoonist of the Chronicle, really like had no place being in any of these conversations, which which Fincher makes very clear early on.

[41:13] Gillian Pensavalle: Like they kick him out of the editorial meetings, and so it's very interesting, like how Graysmith was uh uh an observer, really, like a spectator in all of this, and became so entrenched.

[41:25] Alex Smolowe: And then years later, he finally contacts, he finally gets face to face with Toski, who's been like beaten down with this case.

[41:35] Gillian Pensavalle: His own partner is like, I can't do this anymore.

[41:38] Alex Smolowe: Like it's just it's too much.

[41:39] Gillian Pensavalle: Like they're just like running into these these dead ends over and over and over again.

[41:44] Alex Smolowe: And Toskey is like all beaten down, and Graysmith is like still at a hundred.

[41:49] Gillian Pensavalle: Like Graysmith is still ready to go.

[41:51] Alex Smolowe: And so, like it it is it is a it's an interesting dynamic of these three people who have a little bit of the same goal.

[41:57] Gillian Pensavalle: I think A Avery really was in it in it for the the drama, and in a little bit.

[42:01] Alex Smolowe: I mean, not to speak ill of the dead, but I think he loved you know, it's his column was really popular at the time, and he he wasn't in it, I think, in the same way Toskey and Graysmith were.

[42:11] Gillian Pensavalle: And when they eventually start working together in this cool little, you know I I can't tell you that but maybe Ken Narlo and Napa can you know that's a cool yeah those those little those little uh secret meetings were always very fun and then you have Brian Cox just being being Brian Cox.

[42:26] Alex Smolowe: Yes being there should be a book called Being Brian Cox.

[42:30] Gillian Pensavalle: Brian Cox who will be who will do like Succession which is an amazing show and and everything.

[42:35] Alex Smolowe: And also like Super Troopers and McDonald's voiceover commercials.

[42:40] Gillian Pensavalle: Like Brian Cox is just like here for all of it.

[42:42] Alex Smolowe: He's he's there for everything and then he also plays Hannibal Lecter on the weekends.

[42:46] Gillian Pensavalle: Do you know what I mean?

[42:46] Alex Smolowe: Like let's go back to Manhunter and this man shows up and he says oh yeah I'm I'm actually the original Hannibal Elector and now here we are the guy does it all he does it all like kind of like you kind of like you my friend well look are are you are you happy that I didn't are you happy that I didn't choose the Hamill film because Hamilton is true crime I could have chosen the Hamill film for this.

[43:08] Gillian Pensavalle: I mean very technically you are right you are actually correct that I'm the vice president killed the Treasury secretary Hamilton is true crime through and through I will die on this hill no pun intended I I don't disagree I don't disagree with you I think that if you had chosen the Hamill film I would have probably walked off I I never would do that to you.

[43:30] Alex Smolowe: I would never and also like like I would never do that to me.

[43:33] Gillian Pensavalle: Like there are two people who want to who are very nicely indulging me about Zodiac I'm not I'm not giving that up there's no well there's no indulgence Zodiac is an is a wonderful film.

[43:45] Alex Smolowe: And and again, I I please please watch Zodiac.

[43:48] Gillian Pensavalle: If you and I I would suggest watching it at a time.

[43:50] Alex Smolowe: It's it's very, very similar to to uh a movie we've done another Jake Jillenhall crime oh yeah we did for the crime episode that I picked was prisoners.

[43:58] Gillian Pensavalle: Prisoners.

[43:58] Alex Smolowe: Yep.

[43:59] Gillian Pensavalle: Those those two it about the dip people approaching a case differently trying to solve a thing on their own terms and figuring out in their own their time and their terms um prisoners is a is a great film.

[44:11] Gillian Pensavalle: Also very much very oh sorry to cut you off go ahead.

[44:11] Alex Smolowe: No I was just I was just agreeing.

[44:15] Gillian Pensavalle: I very much speaks to Jake Jillen Hall as an just a phenomenal actor.

[44:20] Alex Smolowe: I really I he's the best he really is the and and I it's taken me a a long time to understand that but like now looking at his body of work and just w just looking at what he's been capable of you're like wow you're you're really you got you got something special here like you just you you just have a range and a commitment.

[44:37] Gillian Pensavalle: If you haven't seen Nightcrawler oh yeah Nightcrawler oh yeah by far my favorite Jake Joan Hall oh Joan Hall performance.

[44:46] Alex Smolowe: I mean the script is incredible too but it's it's my f it was my favorite Jake Jill and Hall until I saw uh John Mullaney and the Sack Lunch Bunch.

[44:54] Gillian Pensavalle: And that became let me tell you when you see Jake Jill and Hall on that on that on that program uh it will really really do some things to your mind.

[45:03] Alex Smolowe: But yeah so Gillian you know but we we we obviously we could we could keep this going forever and ever and we obviously have to have you back and Mike will come on and you will come back and it will be great but but talk I I do want to hear about this so this thing that I that that I mean I want to hear about it because I'm I I'm involved in it.

[45:21] Gillian Pensavalle: Yeah so there's um we're we're gonna tease it a little so Mike wrote this thing that we've we've done before and uh so we get to work together, Nick, like officially in an official capacity, which I'm super excited about.

[45:34] Alex Smolowe: So we're uh Mike and I have teamed up with Mischief Management.

[45:38] Gillian Pensavalle: Who this is I I will make like an eight-hour podcast about how much I love Melissa and Ellie at Mischief Management. She is um they're the people who put on like Broadway Con and uh Con of Thrones, and they are all about fandoms and bringing people together, and they're just excellent people.

[45:54] Alex Smolowe: So we've teamed up with Mischief to produce this really fun thing, and that's really all I'm gonna say at this moment about what it is.

[46:02] Gillian Pensavalle: But we are like everyone at Mischief, we've been we've been uh working very closely with Melissa and Leah, especially, and I just like I can't believe it took me like I would turn I turned to Mike and I was like, I'm never gonna not work with them on anything ever again. They're just like wonderful people.

[46:17] Alex Smolowe: They are just so cool and so like down to business, but fun.

[46:21] Gillian Pensavalle: Every time we have a meeting and I leave the meeting, I'm just like, I feel I wasn't even feeling bad before the meeting, but I feel a hundred times better all of a sudden.

[46:29] Alex Smolowe: Like my mood is up.

[46:30] Gillian Pensavalle: So we're gonna do this really, really cool thing.

[46:32] Alex Smolowe: It's it's gonna it's a radio play that Mike wrote, and we're gonna uh all it's all about raising money for the actors fund, and uh we're just gonna give you something fun and nice for the holidays, and we're kind of we're getting the band back together without saying too much.

[46:45] Gillian Pensavalle: We're uh maybe a little bit of Sons of Liberty and then some like like fancy freestylers.

[46:51] Alex Smolowe: Is that I think that's enough of a tease.

[46:53] Gillian Pensavalle: And also Nik Walker is gonna be there.

[46:55] Alex Smolowe: I I will show up at some point and say so.

[46:58] Gillian Pensavalle: Alex, I'm sorry.

[46:59] Alex Smolowe: Alex, will you still will you still listen to the radio play, even though Nik Walker.

[47:04] Gillian Pensavalle: Uh well, there that's what the uh mute buttons for.

[47:07] Alex Smolowe: Right.

[47:07] Gillian Pensavalle: I'll I'll let you know, I'll give you timestamps so you can mute it.

[47:09] Alex Smolowe: I'll watch it in waveform.

[47:10] Gillian Pensavalle: I've gotten very used to what Nick's voice looks like in waveform.

[47:14] Alex Smolowe: I can identify his ums without listening to it to cut them out.

[47:17] Gillian Pensavalle: I just know exactly how he speaks.

[47:20] Alex Smolowe: That's so annoying.

[47:21] Gillian Pensavalle: I'll just I'll just listen in waveform and and just cut it out.

[47:24] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[47:25] Gillian Pensavalle: Just and just mute it.

[47:26] Alex Smolowe: Yep.

[47:26] Gillian Pensavalle: So we have like big announcements coming, but I'm thrilled, Nick, that you said yes.

[47:29] Alex Smolowe: Like I've I'm I was like, if we're longer, that would be so amazing.

[47:33] Gillian Pensavalle: It was um Yeah.

[47:34] Alex Smolowe: No, there's a no-brainer.

[47:35] Gillian Pensavalle: No brainer.

[47:36] Alex Smolowe: Yeah.

[47:36] Gillian Pensavalle: So by the time Mike is on your pod, you I think you can probably talk about it a little bit more.

[47:42] Alex Smolowe: But it's uh it's like everyone, our dream cast said yes.

[47:47] Gillian Pensavalle: You all said yes, like right away, which is unbelievable.

[47:50] Alex Smolowe: So I'm excited uh to get some uh some of like a some of a of two bands back together to make one big band.

[47:58] Gillian Pensavalle: It's gonna be great.

[47:59] Alex Smolowe: I love that.

[48:00] Gillian Pensavalle: I love it.

[48:00] Alex Smolowe: Well, Gillian, you are just nothing but a gem, and we are so thankful.

[48:04] Gillian Pensavalle: Seriously, I mean I mean that you back at you.

[48:06] Alex Smolowe: Thank you for being here.

[48:07] Gillian Pensavalle: Thank you for coming in and thank you so much for talking to us.

[48:10] Alex Smolowe: Thank you for having me.

[48:11] Gillian Pensavalle: And if you ever want to talk about other m I mean, I'll I'll find a way.

[48:15] Alex Smolowe: Life finds a way.

[48:16] Gillian Pensavalle: I will find a way to find a movie about the topic.

[48:18] Alex Smolowe: Absolutely.

[48:19] Gillian Pensavalle: I mean, we again and again, I uh there are several other true crime movies to talk about.

[48:23] Alex Smolowe: So like I we could just do another, you know, another go at this at some point.

[48:27] Gillian Pensavalle: It could be fun.

[48:28] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, but uh fake crime.

[48:30] Gillian Pensavalle: What if I was like I only talk about Zodiac?

[48:31] Alex Smolowe: I just only talk about Zodiac.

[48:33] Gillian Pensavalle: Then we talk about Zodiac again.

[48:34] Alex Smolowe: I only talk about Zodiac or like Columbo, which is not true crime at all, but Peter Farmer's.

[48:39] Gillian Pensavalle: Yeah, it's my favorite.

[48:40] Alex Smolowe: It's my favorite show.

[48:41] Gillian Pensavalle: Columbo is my favorite show.

[48:42] Alex Smolowe: Uh I always wanted to watch the remake with Ving Raims, but I didn't hear good things, and I was like, nope, I'm I'm gonna leave that alone.

[48:49] Gillian Pensavalle: And there's this internet rumor, or like the internet really wants Mark Ruffalo to play Columbo, and if that happens, that's just like I'm I'm done forever.

[48:57] Alex Smolowe: If Mark Ruffalo ever plays Columbo, which he could flawlessly, that would just that would end me.

[49:03] Gillian Pensavalle: Well, let me tell you, we're living in a world where Jamie Foxx is coming back as electro in a new Spider-Man.

[49:03] Alex Smolowe: A new Spider-Man.

[49:09] Gillian Pensavalle: Wait, tell me.

[49:10] Alex Smolowe: Oh, really?

[49:11] Gillian Pensavalle: Jamie Foxx is gonna be electro in Spider-Man 3.

[49:13] Alex Smolowe: Returning, and not even in the franchise that he originally starred in in a different Spider-Man franchise as the same character.

[49:21] Gillian Pensavalle: Wow.

[49:21] Alex Smolowe: So anything can happen, kids.

[49:23] Gillian Pensavalle: Maybe Jake Jillenhall will come back.

[49:24] Alex Smolowe: Oh no, no.

[49:25] Gillian Pensavalle: He is coming back because they're gonna do the Sinister Six.

[49:27] Alex Smolowe: It's gonna be Jamie Foxx.

[49:28] Gillian Pensavalle: It's gonna I'm uh I'm they're gonna get all of them because they got they got Keaton, Fox, Gyllenhaal.

[49:33] Alex Smolowe: Who knows who's gonna play Doc Ock, but it's gonna be absolutely uh crazy.

[49:38] Gillian Pensavalle: Bring him back, bring him back.

[49:40] Alex Smolowe: He's like what, probably in his 70s now.

[49:42] Gillian Pensavalle: Doesn't matter.

[49:43] Alex Smolowe: It's Alpha Melina, he can do anything, just like uh John Carroll Lynch.

[49:47] Gillian Pensavalle: Uh he can't do it.

[49:47] Alex Smolowe: And Brian Cox, come on.

[49:48] Gillian Pensavalle: Brian Cox.

[49:49] Alex Smolowe: All right.

[49:50] Gillian Pensavalle: Brian Cox.

[49:51] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, bring him in the X uh who do you striker and X-Men.

[49:54] Gillian Pensavalle: Oh, it was uh what's his yeah, yeah.

[49:56] Alex Smolowe: What was that?

[49:56] Gillian Pensavalle: That was Brian Cox.

[49:57] Alex Smolowe: Wasn't it Stryker?

[49:58] Gillian Pensavalle: Brian Cox, yeah.

[49:59] Alex Smolowe: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[50:01] Gillian Pensavalle: Aw, look at that.

[50:02] Alex Smolowe: Look at that.

[50:03] Gillian Pensavalle: All right, guys.

[50:04] Alex Smolowe: Well, thank you, everyone.

[50:05] Gillian Pensavalle: Stay safe out there, take care of yourselves, and we will talk to you very soon.

[50:10] Alex Smolowe: Bye.

[50:11] Gillian Pensavalle: Bye.

[50:11] Alex Smolowe: Thanks, everybody.

[50:12] Gillian Pensavalle: Little Justin.

[50:16] Alex Smolowe: Little Justin.

[50:19] Gillian Pensavalle: Little Justin.

[50:22] Alex Smolowe: Fuck yeah.