This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Rory O'Malley: This is episode number 22 of Living the Dream with Rory O'Malley.

[0:04] Rory O'Malley: If you like the podcast, please remember to subscribe, rate, and review.

[0:09] Rory O'Malley: Audition, side job, swimming upstream. Believe it or not, you're living the dream.

[0:15] Rory O'Malley: Hello, ladies and gentlemen. This is Rory O'Malley, your host of Living the Dream. Thanks for joining us. We got a big big guest.

[0:33] Rory O'Malley: Um my buddy Josh Gad and I don't. I'm sorry. I uh I clearly don't plan what I'm going to say on these introductions.

[0:49] Rory O'Malley: And uh of course, when I say big, I mean big star. Josh and I are both husky gentlemen, so I can laugh about that. Um, Josh and I went to college together. He's one of my closest friends. He is like a brother to me, and getting to sit him down and have a conversation with him about his career, his life was great, but I was also worried it was gonna be boring for me because I've had this conversation with him many times, but it was entertaining and uh a joy to do, probably because he was so eager to do it.

[1:32] Rory O'Malley: He has begged me to be on the podcast since the moment I started it six months ago. And I'm not kidding. He would talk ask me all when am I gonna be on the podcast? When are you gonna have me on? I was like, You're in London filming, and he's like, Well, we can do it, we can do it online, we can co do Skype. I I I was like, calm down. You're on a world press tour. Why are you concerned about being on my podcast? But uh you'll see it, it was a really great um conversation between two old friends, and as much as I respect him for his career and who he is as an actor.

[2:18] Rory O'Malley: I have even more respect for him as a father and a husband, and for the family that he has. He and his wife and his daughters have treated my husband Gerald and I like family, and I would not be where I'm at without Josh. So I'm I'm excited to get to share this conversation with my my pal, Josh Gad. Please enjoy this very large star.

[2:55] Josh Gad: I didn't know we started. I'm sorry.

[2:56] Rory O'Malley: No, we did start.

[2:58] Josh Gad: I wouldn't have added you.

[2:59] Rory O'Malley: We started 30 minutes ago.

[3:01] Josh Gad: Oh, great. We're halfway through. This has been the best interview I've ever given.

[3:06] Rory O'Malley: I am sorry.

[3:07] Josh Gad: Well, that's that's a easy bar. Um, hi Josh Gad.

[3:12] Josh Gad: Hi, Rory O'Malley.

[3:14] Rory O'Malley: Okay, you've already blown out the mic.

[3:15] Josh Gad: Is it bad?

[3:16] Rory O'Malley: Yeah, it's bad. You are already the worst interview I've ever had.

[3:20] Josh Gad: Hi, Rory O'Malley. I was thinking from Carnegie Mellon.

[3:23] Josh Gad: I know how exciting this is that we get to for you for you to do my podcast because you've been begging me.

[3:31] Josh Gad: I have been begging you. That's not actually that's not a joke. It's not a joke. I've been very insulted by the fact that you've asked literally everybody from every background.

[3:41] Josh Gad: People that like I've been looking for people that I'm interested in.

[3:44] Rory O'Malley: No, I get I can see that. People who excite me, people who inspire me. And I can see that you ran through that list. It took you a while, and now you're looking for you.

[3:52] Josh Gad: Well, I know that when I asked Seth, you really hurt.

[3:56] Rory O'Malley: That really broke my heart a little bit.

[3:58] Josh Gad: You were pissed. You texted me immediately. Like, well, when am I gonna be on? I just I introduced you to Seth. Half the people you've interviewed, I've introduced you.

[4:07] Rory O'Malley: That's now that as a I introduced you to Seth. Your husband. I introduced you to your mother.

[4:14] Josh Gad: Oh, that's true. I wasn't aware of you before. To so many people who have gotten to do this show before I have. I'm really it hurts.

[4:23] Rory O'Malley: Well, I actually was on the phone with my agent this morning being like, I I'm finally doing it.

[4:27] Josh Gad: I know. Really excited.

[4:29] Rory O'Malley: I know. It's a big break. And as I said, if you would have done this before Beauty and the Beast opened, you guys would have hit a billion in the first weekend.

[4:39] Josh Gad: That's what what's so heartbreaking. You don't think I get a call every day from Emma Watson going, why didn't you do it? And I said it's not my fault. I was booked solid.

[4:48] Rory O'Malley: I know. I'm sorry, Josh. I'm sorry, Emma. Um, I'm really glad you're this is by the way, my podcast breath.

[4:58] Josh Gad: It's good. It sounds like an NPR breath. Very good podcast breath.

[5:02] Josh Gad: It's a hot mic. I can hear it. It's great. You're a hot Rory. I can hear you.

[5:09] Josh Gad: Sorry, just going so poorly. Um, no, I I think this is great that we're doing this, but I am worried it's gonna be it's definitely the most boring episode for me. I already know what you're doing.

[5:21] Rory O'Malley: You know everything that I'm gonna say.

[5:24] Josh Gad: I have I really I have no questions for you. I understand your concerns about having me on because you do know all my secrets already.

[5:34] Rory O'Malley: I do, and it's and it's not fun for you because there's nothing to learn.

[5:38] Josh Gad: What I would say is this is more about me than it is about you.

[5:38] Rory O'Malley: There are some isn't it always Josh?

[5:43] Josh Gad: Yes. There are some things that I want to air out. There are some things that I want to air out, and what better way to do that than on your okay, and we're not gonna bring up college stories.

[5:51] Josh Gad: We're literally every interview we've given together, or really separately. Anytime you can put it in, you try to embarrass me with college stories, and I'm not gonna have it.

[6:01] Rory O'Malley: Your behavior in college was reprehensible, and I want the world to know what you did.

[6:06] Josh Gad: I did nothing. I was an upstanding collegiate all-star. These are all lies. Do not trust me.

[6:14] Rory O'Malley: They can hear you. You don't have to get so close. Um, all right. So this is called Living the Dream. Josh.

[6:20] Rory O'Malley: It's about the ups and downs of this crazy business that we're in, and you've seen some high highs. Everyone knows about those high highs, but they don't know about your lows. I've seen you in those lows.

[6:35] Josh Gad: Oh, yeah. Well, I this is actually a true story. So when I was do you remember this for sure? Um about I I was I had a healthy ego coming out of college, uh, as you remember.

[6:49] Josh Gad: Uh, which is a you know, sometimes it's a good thing, sometimes it's a bad thing for me. It was a an awful thing. Because I was just like, oh the world's gonna be handed to me on a silver platter. And do you remember what my dream was? What did I want to do straight out of college?

[7:03] Rory O'Malley: Be on SNL.

[7:04] Josh Gad: SNL. That was it. Like one we watched track my 20th anniversary anniversary. On a Saturday night in Hammerschlag together. It was just me and you. We were like, this is history. We have to watch this. Like we loved SNL, and you were like, I'm gonna be on it. And what was so interesting is they didn't share the same ambition.

[7:28] Josh Gad: And I I don't know who thinks to themselves, oh, let me go to a four-year conservatory program. That'll be a great outlet to getting onto Saturday Night Live. But I had a very one track mind, and I was sort of bouncing back and forth between New York and Los Angeles. Remember?

[7:45] Rory O'Malley: Right.

[7:46] Josh Gad: And do you remember what you said to me?

[7:48] Rory O'Malley: I I vaguely remember. What did you say?

[7:50] Josh Gad: Because I can tell you verbatim.

[7:52] Rory O'Malley: Well, then just tell me.

[7:53] Josh Gad: You said I thought you knew all the answers already. I thought that's why you didn't want me on this show.

[7:57] Rory O'Malley: Well, I you know, they heard me speak, Josh. You're the guest. I'm being polite. Royal Nally said to me, You gotta stop running away and find a home. You gotta, you gotta find consistency. You gotta make your route somewhere. That's what you said.

[8:13] Josh Gad: And so I was offered this small play in Los Angeles, and our friend, our mutual friend Ryan Dixon was directing.

[8:24] Rory O'Malley: Right.

[8:24] Josh Gad: And um, he's like, come do this show, Josh. It'll be fun. That's an excellent Ryan Dixon impression.

[8:32] Josh Gad: And so I did it, and I wound up meeting my future wife at the time. And it was the gateway to the consistency that would help define my career choices moving forward. Then there is one sort of constant in my life that that I can mark as uh a way that I sort of got from point A to point B to point C, and that's Rory O'Malley.

[9:01] Rory O'Malley: That's true, because you were also one of the first people who came up to me and said, I just saw this incredible show on Broadway.

[9:09] Josh Gad: Yes. Oh, I definitely still waiting on that commission. And you said to me, You'll never see any of that. And you said to me, Um, you need to be seen for this.

[9:19] Rory O'Malley: I I saw I saw it in previews.

[9:22] Josh Gad: You saw it in previews. I got a call from you. I got a call from Ben Wexler, another uh but not Ben Wexler, Ben Peltison. Yes, uh Ben Peltison and you, another Ben was another person we went to school with, and both of you said there's this role, William Barfay, that brilliant Dan Fogler's playing, and when he's done, you have to do it.

[9:40] Josh Gad: And I was like, there's no way they're gonna see me for a musical. Um I didn't say that you have to do it, I said you're the only person who can do it. I was like, this man is giving a incredibly unique performance, and the only other person I mean I'd never seen anyone attempt to give that kind of comedic performance in a show, and I was like, you're the only person I know.

[10:09] Josh Gad: Weird enough who's weird enough to be able to do it. Whose sensibility uh in in front of an audience would go to that place and you were and you were right, and you were absolutely right, and you and I were blessed enough to do it together.

[10:24] Rory O'Malley: Right. I mean, what's the c the craziest thing that I still don't understand?

[10:29] Josh Gad: Well, up until Hamilton, you cheating bastard.

[10:32] Rory O'Malley: Yeah, but up until then I was with Leslie, so it was.

[10:34] Josh Gad: But then you were with Leslie.

[10:35] Rory O'Malley: That's right, yeah. But we had done, or I've done every single Broadway show with you.

[10:41] Josh Gad: Yes, two.

[10:43] Rory O'Malley: All of them I did with you.

[10:45] Josh Gad: All two of them I did with you.

[10:47] Rory O'Malley: Yes. So the f so spelling B, you you were in it on Broadway.

[10:51] Josh Gad: You made your Broadway stage debut.

[10:52] Rory O'Malley: I made my Broadway debut going on for me as Barfay.

[10:57] Josh Gad: And you killed it. I heard.

[10:59] Rory O'Malley: Oh yeah. I saw the show. You were auditioning for 21.

[11:02] Josh Gad: Was I auditioning for 21? Or was I auditioning for Avatar?

[11:08] Rory O'Malley: Avatar.

[11:09] Josh Gad: Avatar. Oh, so it was a failed audition.

[11:13] Rory O'Malley: Oh, that's even better. They flew me out to LA to audition for for James Cameron for Avatar.

[11:21] Josh Gad: And I still remember the audition uh piece that I had to do. I was a translator for the Navi.

[11:28] Rory O'Malley: Okay.

[11:29] Josh Gad: And I had to say Auvey Ut Aria Yohengehi Nauma Malir Tok C V E. And I remember that because I had to work with a linguist.

[11:37] Rory O'Malley: What?

[11:37] Josh Gad: To learn it. And then that's gibberish.

[11:41] Rory O'Malley: Well, it's not gibberish, it's Navi. It's a real beautiful language that they speak on this other planet, Pandora.

[11:47] Josh Gad: All right. And so um I did this, and I was so confident because she's like, oh, James Cameron said to me, you know, what's so great about you when you when you do this movie is you come from the stage, and so much of what you're gonna have to do is you're gonna have to imagine. And then uh I didn't get it, suffice it to say.

[12:07] Josh Gad: And I imagine that they like tried to test out what I would look like as an as like a na'vi, and I probably looked like a fat Smurf.

[12:16] Rory O'Malley: So wait, you were going to be a Navi?

[12:19] Josh Gad: I was so I was gonna be Sam Worthington's best friend.

[12:23] Rory O'Malley: Okay.

[12:23] Josh Gad: Who they wound up casting like a tall, skinny dude.

[12:26] Rory O'Malley: Right.

[12:27] Josh Gad: And I I I and he, you know, they have to plug in and become like they wear those like na'vi suits or whatever, and they become like Navi.

[12:35] Rory O'Malley: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[12:36] Josh Gad: Oh, okay. So I would have been one of those, but I I have a feeling that they saw that merchandise sales would go way down if that were to happen.

[12:44] Rory O'Malley: Maybe you can get a job at uh the Disney Avatar Land?

[12:49] Josh Gad: Yeah, Avatar Land.

[12:51] Rory O'Malley: Maybe it's at Disney, right?

[12:52] Josh Gad: It's at Disney World.

[12:54] Rory O'Malley: Animal Kingdom. Should I do it?

[12:56] Josh Gad: Yeah.

[12:58] Rory O'Malley: Walk around as like uh We can definitely get you like a Leotard and Blue Paint for the face.

[13:06] Josh Gad: There's gonna be like twelve more avatars, right?

[13:08] Rory O'Malley: You still have No, I still have a shot.

[13:09] Josh Gad: You still have time. Once they make it a musical, I think you're in.

[13:13] Rory O'Malley: Um it's actually they have made a it's called Blue Man Group.

[13:17] Josh Gad: It actually exists.

[13:20] Rory O'Malley: Okay, okay, so we're we are in Spelling Bee, which was crazy because that was 2005, 2006.

[13:31] Josh Gad: It was a long time ago. And almost quit the business.

[13:34] Josh Gad: Before.

[13:35] Rory O'Malley: Not once you got spelling bee.

[13:38] Josh Gad: No, I almost quit right before Spelling Bee because I thought me, you know what, maybe I'll go to law school. And my mom said to me, I called her up to tell her this, thinking she was gonna be so proud, and she started crying, and she said, I'm disappointed in you. And I said, Why? And she said, You've spent 15 years dreaming of doing this and only three years living out that dream, and I think that that's unfair to do to yourself.

[14:04] Josh Gad: And like a month later, I got Spelling Bee.

[14:07] Rory O'Malley: Right. So I mean it's I'm so it's really because of you and my mother.

[14:11] Josh Gad: Yeah. We are a team. Um and we deserve all the credit. Uh but it's funny because everyone has that story of being in that place where they're like, this is it's too much. I'm giving this up. This is it's overwhelming because that when you're in that spot, and it can happen at any point in your career, your journey.

[14:37] Josh Gad: You know what it's really good. Uh and I'll tell you why. I there's nothing to harden you more than rejection. And I say that as somebody who's been rejected as recently as last week for a role that I wanted.

[14:52] Josh Gad: You know, you never stop dealing with rejection. But at a certain point you can contextualize it. And at a certain point, you're not training yourself for success. You're training yourself to ride the highs and the lows so that you find a happy medium where it's not so, um, manic. You know? Every job or audition isn't life or death. It just becomes work. But at a certain point it becomes I'm blessed to be doing what I'm doing. Let me put this money away, because who knows? I'm banging on the table, and Rory's telling me that that's completely not. It sounds great when you drum at serious satellite radio, by the way, you can get away with any of this. You can because they're not technology that's a lot of people. Okay, let's not get on my mic, it's a beautiful thing. So you sort of train yourself to deal with that, and I didn't realize at the time, because I was getting rejected on pretty much a daily basis for things, you know, how useful and important that was.

[16:01] Rory O'Malley: Well, I remember that period of time so well and what you were going through, not just because we were so close, but I remember, you know, I have always, and I'm only gonna say this once, I'm not gonna dwell on this, I can't wait. I always had a huge amount of respect for you and your talent.

[16:21] Josh Gad: The feeling is very mutual.

[16:23] Rory O'Malley: Okay, let's not get too crazy here. Um, I couldn't do this podcast all the time now. I'll only say nice things if it's being recorded. Um, but I, you know, I was working in restaurants, I was struggling, I wasn't, you know, getting anywhere, and I wasn't even getting into the auditions to be rejected, you know. And I looked to you and saw that you were having a hard time, that you were, it was, you know, difficult for you, and I thought, you know, if Josh is having a hard time, it's okay that I'm having a hard time. And I mean that in the sense that I looked to your talent and to your, what your career was going to be from the beginning, knowing that it was just a given, that it was going to be something that was realized, and that if it was gonna take time for this industry to figure out who you were and how to bring you into the business, then certainly it was gonna take me some more time.

[17:02] Josh Gad: Thank you, that means the world coming from you. And I'll say that what I think you and I figured out early on, which I always try to tell anybody who's young and who wants to do this, which is a very, it's a rough path.

[17:45] Rory O'Malley: Yes.

[17:46] Josh Gad: And you feel like you are told that so much before you get into it.

[17:51] Rory O'Malley: Yeah.

[17:51] Josh Gad: And you don't know. The one thing that I think you and I did really well was we created our own opportunities as often as we could. And I think that that is so important. Nobody's gonna serve you, you know, your career on a silver platter. It just doesn't happen. And so what you have to do is you have to generate, you know, what you've done so brilliantly with your cabarets, and you know, even early on when you came out here, you found the trubies and you joined them and you theater company that I worked with. You made your own path. You made, uh, you know, you did groundlings, both of us did, and oh yeah.

[18:29] Rory O'Malley: Which our groundlings class failed enterprise.

[18:32] Josh Gad: With Seth, it was right.

[18:34] Rory O'Malley: Me, you and Seth also.

[18:36] Josh Gad: And we didn't, we didn't make it.

[18:37] Rory O'Malley: No, we didn't make it.

[18:38] Josh Gad: They were like, uh, no, we didn't make it.

[18:41] Rory O'Malley: Not through not for the through the first class, the first session. Like we, it's not like we're gonna be able to do it.

[18:46] Josh Gad: No, there was no, we were never gonna join their, like, troop. They were like, oh no, you're, um, even with the money that you want to pay us, we won't accept it because you're trying to do it.

[18:56] Rory O'Malley: It wouldn't take our money, terrible. Um, so you know, but generating your own opportunities is everything. And I feel like, you know, you say yes.

[19:07] Josh Gad: You just say yes.

[19:08] Rory O'Malley: Okay, well, that's the difference between me and you and what you're saying. I do say yes. I say yes to anything. You got a job, I'll take it.

[19:17] Josh Gad: Yes.

[19:18] Rory O'Malley: That's true. I don't think that, I think that I've gotten better at creating my own opportunities, but I think it's the scariest thing for me, and I have to push myself constantly. You, on the other hand, have written, produced, forced your way into so many things and situations, and it has always been so impressive to me.

[19:43] Josh Gad: And that's like when we were at college, you always, every year did a show that you wrote, that you produced, that you had seniors when we were sophomores working on. You always, you're never afraid to extend what your ideas to a group of people around you, artists, and kind of make it a collaborative effort and say, hey guys, this is what we're doing now. And I've always been so impressed with that.

[20:15] Rory O'Malley: I always found myself all of a sudden I'm playing Dick Cheney in your...

[20:20] Josh Gad: You were the most brilliant Dick Cheney.

[20:22] Rory O'Malley: Well, do you remember your song?

[20:24] Josh Gad: I don't.

[20:25] Rory O'Malley: I don't either.

[20:26] Josh Gad: I remember I had multiple heart attacks.

[20:29] Rory O'Malley: Yeah, that's, um, you know, it, it again, I felt like at Carnegie Mellon, there was an amazing opportunity because of the sheer collection of talented people around us that we didn't necessarily have many opportunities to all work together on stuff. And I thought, what a brilliant collection of talent. What, you know, we have all of these things at our disposal. And so you just pick up a typewriter or computer and a pen and paper, and you just start writing.

[21:04] Josh Gad: Okay, sure. But what where I stop is I'm scared. The fear, the fear of you, this is whatever I'm writing, shouldn't be released to the public for God's sakes. Like, what is it in you that was so fearless from the get-go?

[21:25] Rory O'Malley: I think obviously your high school experience and, uh, your speech, uh, career of you, you were a national champion how many times?

[21:36] Josh Gad: Uh, three times.

[21:37] Rory O'Malley: And it was, um, that definitely helped. I mean, I would say, you know, speech and debate was great because it's competitive.

[21:46] Josh Gad: Yeah.

[21:46] Rory O'Malley: So you, you again, you're dealing with rejection, you're dealing with trying to rise above a lot of talented people who are also vying for that same championship. And I think it, in some ways that did harden me. Um, I have an incredible fear of failure. You know, it is painful to do something that is not well received. It is painful to do something that falls flat on its face. I'll never forget my first time on the Daily Show. Um, I was so terrified, and in hindsight, I can say I was absolutely awful. I mean, awful, and I was trying to be something that I wasn't, and I had two choices. I could either give up and say, I'm never gonna be good enough, or I could learn from it, watch it like a sports player would do.

Watch it and say, how can I make this better? What could I do to make this better? And then the second opportunity I got, I said, I'm not gonna waste it. And I felt like it was the best thing I had ever done on the Daily Show to this day. And it was this gun piece that I got to do that was, you know, about, um, it was about guns as an investment. And I was just true to myself. I wasn't trying to be, you know, Steven Colbert. I wasn't trying to be, you know, any of these other guys. I was trying to be Josh Gad and do what I could do. And so I'm right there with you. I'm always terrified. I'm always terrified that I'm gonna not be good enough. But I'm at a point, or I got to a point along the way where I said to myself, okay, that could have been better. I'm gonna, I won't know if it'll fail though, unless I try it. And that's where I'm at now. You know, I just, I have to try. Some things work, some things don't.

[24:00] Rory O'Malley: Right.

[23:58] Josh Gad: You know, but you keep trying. If you don't try, you're not gonna find out either way.

[24:04] Rory O'Malley: Exactly.

[24:05] Josh Gad: Yeah. But I feel like that's something that I've been able to learn and grow in. I just feel like you had that at 18. I really feel that. Like I, and I, I feel like it's a huge part of your success is that even through that fear, you have the courage just to like walk right through it and not give a damn what anybody thinks about you artistically.

[24:33] Rory O'Malley: I think, I think, you know, look, I think some of it is luck. I think I've been very fortunate. Uh, you know, I think we both have been very fortunate. Right place, right time. That's a thing. Um, but I do think to a certain extent, you know, there's a fearlessness that you have to have. You just have to have. And I still get terrified. I still get so when I, before I walk out onto a stage, I'm always so nervous.

[25:04] Josh Gad: Right.

[25:04] Rory O'Malley: I'm, I don't want to screw this up.

[25:06] Josh Gad: Me too.

[25:07] Rory O'Malley: You know, and it doesn't matter that I've done it hundreds, if not a over a thousand times. I'm still scared. That's part of the reason I haven't gotten back on a stage since Book of Mormon. Is I'm worried about the expectation of following up something like that. You have literally been blessed with being in the biggest shows of all time, one by one by one. It's, it's scary for me because I, I don't know how to follow that up, and I desperately want to. And I know we always talk about wanting to do something again together, and so that even though I am fearless to a certain extent, I'm not. I'm still always afraid. I'm still, you know better than anyone. I'm a neurotic mess.

[25:52] Josh Gad: Right.

[25:52] Rory O'Malley: And my neuroses are worn on my sleeve.

[25:55] Josh Gad: Well, that's what makes it more impressive to me, though. I, you know, no one is without fear. It's if you step through it, if you can get to the other side of it and actually conquer it, and that's what makes it more impressive and courageous, and I think you've, I think you've always had that in a way that is just like, it's, it was astounding to me from a young age, and it's always inspired me, and I'm done complimenting.

[26:21] Rory O'Malley: Okay, good. Because it's making me really uncomfortable.

[26:26] Josh Gad: Okay, so you, you go through the spelling beam. You, you have the avatar audition, does it go well? James Cameron does the old switcheroo with the tall, skinny guy. But you do get a movie 21 and all of a sudden you are in, uh, TV film world.

[26:48] Rory O'Malley: Yeah.

[26:48] Josh Gad: And what was that transition like? And what was interesting, so going from stage to TV and film was a, um, it was a shock to the system in some ways because, you know, this Carnegie, as amazing as it is, trains you for one thing really well. Uh, but when it comes to film and television, I think it's changed since we went to school.

[27:17] Rory O'Malley: When we went 70 years ago.

[27:19] Josh Gad: When we went 70 years ago, but you know, it's, it's a different beast altogether, right? So, you know, I didn't necessarily know what hitting my marks meant, and like that it was a lot of learning curves. So I sort of, I fell into 21, which was a great success, and then I did a show called Back to You on TV, which, um, Kelsey Grammar, Patricia Heaton, yeah, Ty Burrell, Ty Burr, Fred Willard, the creative team behind Modern Family, it had every recipe for success.

[27:51] Rory O'Malley: Yeah, except for one thing.

[27:52] Josh Gad: It wasn't a success. And well, it was also during the writer's strike. It was during the writer's strike, and within one week I had my wedding, my show was cancelled, and my grandmother died suddenly in her sleep. And again, I was back to square one. I felt like everything I had worked towards, everything that I had thought was now finally like, um, good. It all had been upended. And I was, um, sort of felt like I was back to square one. I also had kind of fallen into this not trap, but I had fallen into this proverbial, you know, typecasting that worried me a little bit of playing the best friend or that nerdy guy.

[28:41] Rory O'Malley: Right.

[28:41] Josh Gad: And I got nervous about that. And, um, around that time, I got a phone call saying, uh, from Bobby Lopez saying, I'm working on this new musical.

[28:56] Rory O'Malley: Had you did you know him?

[28:57] Josh Gad: So I'll tell you the story. So Bobby calls me up and he goes, I'm working on this new musical with the creators of South Park about Mormons. And I'm thinking to myself, oh, they're adapting the Mormon episode of South Park, yeah. And they want me to play Cartman or something. Dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum. And so I'm like, oh, that'll be fun. Bobby apparently heard this album that we did for, oh yeah, uh, Carol's First Cure.

[29:26] Josh Gad: Carol's for cure. And he was blown away by my voice. And he's like, oh, this guy can really pull this off.

[29:36] Josh Gad: He's incredible.

[29:37] Rory O'Malley: Right.

[29:38] Josh Gad: It was only later that he realized that the person he listened to was not me.

[29:43] Josh Gad: It was an actor named Barrett Foa.

[29:46] Josh Gad: And I was the one who was like doing a bad Bono impression on the album instead.

[29:53] Josh Gad: So thank you, Barrett, for getting me Book of Mormon. I owe you big time.

[29:59] Josh Gad: Um, but I got this call, and they send me the demo, and the first song comes on, and it's "Hello, my name is," and I'm like, oh, this is hilarious. Second song is "Two by Two." He goes, and I'm like, this is brilliant. Then he gets to a song called "Vasadika Ilahai." And I listened to that song, and I remember stopping it and feeling sick to my stomach and calling up my agent and saying, I don't know if I can do this.

[30:26] Josh Gad: And he said, why? And he goes, because I'll get shot in the face. The things that they're saying about God are not so—he didn't tell you that that was on, wow.

[30:35] Rory O'Malley: No.

[30:36] Josh Gad: So I was like, uh, this is not good because you can get away with it in animation, but live performers performing for a live audience, yeah. That was a very big question. I show up to the first rehearsal, and guess who's there?

[30:50] Josh Gad: And what Rory won't tell you because he's so modest is Rory shows up to that first rehearsal with our other friend Will Taylor, who did the first one with us, who also went to Carnegie with us, and he was in the ensemble, and Trey and Matt immediately were so blown away by him that they created the role of Elder McKinley specifically for Rory O'Malley.

[31:19] Josh Gad: That role never existed, and then they saw Rory performing, and he had such a spark and charisma about him and was so gay, and was so gay that they were like, we need to create an entire role, and up until the very last week before we opened, they were still trying to shoehorn more and more songs in for Rory because Rory was so brilliant that they just kept trying to write more and more.

[31:53] Rory O'Malley: We definitely had some cut songs, cut little diddies, yeah.

[32:01] Josh Gad: Yeah, that's it. We almost had a little ditty in there for McKinley, but it was a crazy experience creatively because it was three years. We did three readings, two workshops, yeah, and every single one was like this is unbelievably good, and but it still felt like is this gonna happen? Is this gonna happen?

[32:27] Josh Gad: And even if it does happen, is anyone gonna see it? Like I, you know that I was—

[32:32] Rory O'Malley: Oh, you had the most pessimistic view.

[32:38] Josh Gad: I was so pessimistic. I said I knew I had to do it, I knew it was beyond special.

[32:43] Rory O'Malley: Yeah, we all knew that it was so good, but I thought it was gonna get picketed. Remember, I was terrified about security.

[32:49] Josh Gad: Shock.

[32:49] Rory O'Malley: Uh, um, and so I was like, are we going to survive this if we do it?

[32:57] Josh Gad: Um, and I also thought South Park fans will come, but will New York audiences, will tourists come to the show?

[33:04] Rory O'Malley: And I totally thought the same thing. You know, I always tell the story like Gerald asked me how long I thought Book of Mormon would run before we opened, and I said, if we run a year, I will be happy.

[33:17] Josh Gad: And he was like, you're an idiot, it's gonna run forever. It's brilliant.

[33:21] Rory O'Malley: I just, I agree, and no, and Trey and Matt never bat an eye.

[33:26] Josh Gad: Nope. They knew they were like, just trust us, it's gonna work.

[33:31] Rory O'Malley: Well, and it's also, I think, because they certainly didn't write something that was like, this will be the formula for something that will run forever.

[33:41] Josh Gad: Right.

[33:41] Rory O'Malley: They wrote like, oh wow, you mean there's no censors and we can do whatever we want to tell this story and just make—they're only concerned about storytelling.

[33:52] Josh Gad: Even more so, I think, than being funny.

[33:54] Rory O'Malley: It is. We had the most incredible creative team behind that show. I mean, from going to the top from Ann Garfino, who produced it to Scott Rudin to, you know, Bobby and Trey and Matt. They all complemented each other really well.

[34:10] Josh Gad: Yeah.

[34:13] Rory O'Malley: And I think that the special secret sauce is that each of them was the right person for the right job, all working in conjunction together.

[34:24] Josh Gad: A big shout out has to go to Jason Moore as well, who directed the first two or three workshops readings, who I think really helped shape it to some extent and give it that heart that it has.

[34:37] Rory O'Malley: Yeah.

[34:37] Josh Gad: And then of course Casey Nicholaw comes in and does his brilliant thing with it, and really, you know, helping it.

[34:44] Rory O'Malley: Well, I always say like he gave it a shot of adrenaline in its arm, and it like really took off.

[34:51] Josh Gad: Yeah. It was, I mean, once we got to that final workshop, and Steven Sondheim was in the audience.

[35:00] Rory O'Malley: Oh my god.

[35:01] Josh Gad: For a workshop, you know, it was like undeniable that we were a part of something that was extraordinary.

[35:11] Rory O'Malley: It was extraordinary.

[35:12] Josh Gad: Uh, Steven Arimas as well, huge contributor to podcasts.

[35:18] Rory O'Malley: I know he has. I know everybody has for me.

[35:20] Josh Gad: Um, so, you know, it was this turning point in all of our lives because it had answered that question that I had been searching for, which was now I found success, but how do I get out of this sort of bubble that I'm in of people coming to me for these same roles that just wasn't fun?

[35:44] Rory O'Malley: And Elder Cunningham was everything that I do, you know.

[35:49] Josh Gad: Right.

[35:49] Josh Gad: But it is actually, it's funny, that's literally what the story is. You being coming out of the shell of just being the sidekick best friend and becoming the leader. That's the story.

[35:58] Rory O'Malley: It is the story.

[36:00] Josh Gad: I have to admit something.

[36:01] Rory O'Malley: Okay.

[36:02] Josh Gad: And I don't know if I've told you this. I may have.

[36:06] Josh Gad: I have based loosely two roles on Rory O'Malley in my career. This is true.

[36:12] Josh Gad: I think you've said this recently.

[36:15] Rory O'Malley: I did say it recently.

[36:16] Josh Gad: And then somebody to you about it.

[36:20] Rory O'Malley: No, you haven't.

[36:21] Josh Gad: So you—this is like lawsuit. This is lawsuit time. I based the voice of Cunningham, that sort of oh shucks, Midwesterner kind of thing, on you.

[36:36] Rory O'Malley: On your impression of me.

[36:38] Josh Gad: On my impression of you. That is correct.

[36:40] Rory O'Malley: And the first time I sat down with the script, and I was trying to figure out how who is this guy? What do I want him to sound like? And it, you know, my impression of Rory was always, hi, I'm Rory.

[36:53] Josh Gad: Hangy. That kind of thing. I'm from Cleveland.

[36:56] Rory O'Malley: Cleveland.

[36:57] Josh Gad: And so I was absolutely plugged into that.

[37:05] Rory O'Malley: Right.

[37:06] Josh Gad: The second role that I based on you is completely based on you. Can you guess?

[37:12] Rory O'Malley: No, I don't know what you're talking about.

[37:13] Josh Gad: I'll give you a hint. Hi. I'm Olaf.

[37:17] Rory O'Malley: No.

[37:18] Josh Gad: Completely based on you. You—there's nobody I know who's more pure.

[37:23] Rory O'Malley: Okay, well, now I'm definitely getting my lawyers involved.

[37:26] Josh Gad: I mean, this is—you should be grateful. I mean, look, I'm giving you—

[37:30] Rory O'Malley: But I based Olaf on you.

[37:33] Josh Gad: Okay. Because you have a purity about it.

[37:35] Rory O'Malley: Is this about how pasty white I am?

[37:38] Josh Gad: It is. It is about the fact that he—you melt in heat and you're completely disrounded.

[37:44] Josh Gad: But um, no, I—when you know, when the director said to me, find the most joyous, innocent naivety that you can tap into, the image that came to me was you. And I was like, okay.

[38:01] Rory O'Malley: The most naive person.

[38:02] Josh Gad: The most naive person that I know. And it really was, um, I'm very grateful because you have helped me create probably my two most iconic roles.

[38:12] Rory O'Malley: That's wonderful. I'm so glad that you got those jobs that you were like, wow, who would be perfect for this? Rory.

[38:21] Josh Gad: Okay, that's alright. No, I had to come clean.

[38:26] Rory O'Malley: I appreciate that. That's a beautiful. I'm sure you've based something on me, but it's offensive.

[38:32] Josh Gad: Nothing. I wouldn't, I just haven't really gotten into the like the darker roles yet.

[38:37] Rory O'Malley: Yeah, you will.

[38:38] Josh Gad: I will. You'll play it. You'll play a juice. Like a murderer.

[38:41] Rory O'Malley: Yeah.

[38:42] Josh Gad: Uh, really dark, neurotic, crazed killer.

[38:48] Rory O'Malley: I can't wait.

[38:49] Josh Gad: I can't wait to see what you do. Um, so yeah, so I did Book of Mormon with you, and it changed our lives.

[38:56] Rory O'Malley: Um, we were suddenly everywhere. We were the, you know, toast of the town, and it was people coming up to us and being like, oh, you know, what do you want to do?

[39:08] Josh Gad: And with that kind of attack. What do you want to do next? Like, what do you want to do next?

[39:11] Rory O'Malley: Yeah, which is, which is, you know, I when Nikki was on, again, another person who's on before you, we talked a lot about that pressure.

[39:22] Josh Gad: That's what I was gonna say. Yeah, it's—that sounds great, but it's actually very tricky.

[39:28] Rory O'Malley: Yeah.

[39:28] Josh Gad: And I made some wrong decisions. Um, you know, I sort of did stuff that was I thought safe, or I thought was, you know, oh, let me get a paycheck, let me do that, instead of stuff that felt like it was coming from the right place.

[39:50] Rory O'Malley: Like I was making choices that were going to help, you know, tell a certain story of what I wanted to do with my career.

[40:01] Josh Gad: Right. Um, and so, you know, I was very proud of the fact that I helped create a show called 1600 Penn, which you were brilliant on, and I was very proud of, you know, the fact that I did some of these movies, but at a certain point, I did them for the wrong reasons.

[40:16] Josh Gad: I did, I wasn't after creating something that was creatively as appealing to me as I think it might otherwise have been. And that was a really valuable lesson.

[40:28] Josh Gad: Uh, because when you do that, it backfires sometimes. And, uh, you know, it was—and sometimes you'll go in with the best intentions, you know, and you'll think this is really special, this is really different, and it still doesn't work, and that's okay.

[40:45] Rory O'Malley: But the motto of my life has always been take risks, and I felt like during that particular period of time after Mormon, which was at that point the biggest risk I had taken, because I turned down a lot of TV opportunities to do Book of Mormon for minimal paycheck, as you know.

[41:03] Josh Gad: Um, I stopped living by that motto and fell into a little bit of a rut where I wasn't necessarily content with some of the things that I was doing.

[41:17] Rory O'Malley: But it's so hard to come to the moment of a Book of Mormon or something that is like the—the world is being presented to you, and not feel after knowing how hard and long it took for you to get there, not being like, I have to jump at the first opportunity that comes along because I know how precious this moment is, and that it can go away like that.

[41:42] Josh Gad: Yeah, exactly. And, and you know, that was really tricky. I mean, it was—I would do things differently, probably.

[41:52] Josh Gad: I don't regret anything, I had the best time on all the projects that I did, but it—but I definitely, um, I definitely was a hamster in a wheel.

[42:03] Josh Gad: And I was chasing something that wasn't there, yeah.

[42:07] Josh Gad: Um.

[42:08] Josh Gad: So it, you know, so I went through that period, and um, and then I was blessed enough to get um another incoming phone call. I had done a reading before Book of Mormon of a Disney project called Anna and the Snow Queen.

[42:29] Josh Gad: And at the time the music was by Alan Mencken, and it was a completely different story. They weren't Anna and Elsa were not sisters.

[42:38] Josh Gad: Um, in fact, the only consistency was probably this little snowman character that they had called Olaf, who was like a henchman for Elsa in the original script.

[42:49] Josh Gad: That project goes away because Princess and the Frog wasn't the gigantic hit that they were hoping for, and so it sort of put this—they started to worry about making princess movies.

[43:05] Rory O'Malley: Right.

[43:06] Josh Gad: And then Tangled comes along and does incredibly well, and then once again, this Anna the Snow Queen project is greenlit.

[43:16] Josh Gad: And so I get this call to do this, and at the time I'm supposed to do this other project for DreamWorks, right?

[43:24] Josh Gad: And basically they—um, Jeffrey Katzenberg doesn't want me to do both for obvious reasons they're gonna come out within a month of each other.

[43:35] Josh Gad: And my team says to me, you can't do both. It's one or the other, and you're doing this other project.

[43:43] Rory O'Malley: And so this is what I mean by taking chances.

[43:45] Josh Gad: Right. So I said to them, I'm not willing to take no for an answer. And I called up Jeffrey Katzenberg myself, which was—

[43:55] Rory O'Malley: Okay.

[43:57] Josh Gad: Remember when we were talking about the like fear thing?

[43:57] Rory O'Malley: Yeah.

[43:57] Josh Gad: Well, this is when it comes in handy.

[44:00] Josh Gad: And I'm like, nobody's gonna defend myself better than me. And I really want to do this.

[44:05] Josh Gad: Right. And so I called them up and I said, look, this is something that I really want to do as a favor to Bobby Lopez and his wife Kristen, who are now writing the music. We just worked together on Book of Mormon. It is not the lead character, it is definitively a side character.

[44:23] Josh Gad: Is there any way that you can let me do both? I would be forever grateful. And he was generous enough to say, yes, there is a way. If you don't do publicity, you don't do marketing, I'll let you do it. And my heart sort of sank a little bit, but at the same time, I'm like, okay, it's something. And I went back to my agent and I told him this, and he goes, There's no way that they will agree to this at Disney. And God bless the incredible John Lasseter. Wow. Because he took that challenge and he ran with it. And he said, Alright, well, if that's the case, then we'll make it a thing where people will have to guess who played Olaf, and it'll be a fun thing. And somehow convinced the lawyers at Disney to allow it to happen, and thank God, because the other project disappeared and Frozen became Frozen. Um, and so it was a very crazy and tumultuous experience, but ultimately wound up being one of the great moments in my career.

[45:30] Rory O'Malley: But okay, okay. You know, that stresses me out just hearing that story. Like, how when you get on the phone with Jeffrey Katzenberg, how do you find the composure or the self-worth to say we gotta do this? And because to me, right as an actor, I think there are a thousand people they could get to do this, they don't need me. Where do you, I mean obviously that builds as you get more and more secure with yourself, but you know what I'm talking about? Like do you remember what happened when I was first offered Spelling Bee in San Francisco?

[46:12] Josh Gad: Yes, I do.

[46:14] Rory O'Malley: I turned it down, yes.

[46:16] Josh Gad: You turned down? I'm crazy.

[46:18] Rory O'Malley: So like I would not recommend this. Like I was not a non-working, I was not a working actor.

[46:24] Josh Gad: Right.

[46:24] Rory O'Malley: And they offered me Spelling Bee in San Francisco, and I don't know where these balls came from, but I had the gall to say no.

[46:33] Josh Gad: Right.

[46:33] Rory O'Malley: Because I was like, if I'm not doing it on Broadway, this isn't the career path that I want. I don't want to travel and do a tour of that's not what I want to do. Right. And I was such an egotistical bitch for even thinking that I was worth the time of day to say no to them.

[46:52] Josh Gad: Well, it worked, it did work, but that could have backfired greatly and almost, you know, that's what I'm saying. Like, I'm the yes guy. I would have said yes, and you need me to hand out flyers in between shows. Yes.

[47:03] Rory O'Malley: Well, you know.

[47:04] Josh Gad: Like that's that I at a certain point you just you stare opportunities in the eye and you say, Look, what's the pros and cons of this? And I always go through the pros and cons. And for me, the worst that could happen if I called up, you know, Jeffrey Katzenberg, was he'll say no.

[47:23] Rory O'Malley: Right.

[47:24] Josh Gad: And that's where I was anyway. And sometimes it's worth the risk, and sometimes it's worth the shot. And in that case, it was. And again, it could have backfired. Yeah. But you know, life comes at you fast, and you just have to make a decision, and you have to allow yourself to put yourself in a situation where you know it could fail. Right?

[47:46] Rory O'Malley: Right.

[47:47] Josh Gad: And I don't again, I think the more I do this, the more at peace I am with failing. The more I'm willing to put myself out there knowing that I could fall flat on my face. Right. Um so that was one of those things where I was like, let me weigh it out. And there weren't, it couldn't, I was sitting on a no anyway. So it wasn't like it's gonna, you know, if I got another no, it's gonna make a difference. It's not gonna make it worse.

[48:19] Rory O'Malley: But you do the movie, Frozen, and it turns into not just a hit, but something that revitalizes an entire medium of Disney animated.

[48:36] Josh Gad: Well, I don't know about that. I mean, it Tangled had come out before recording.

[48:41] Rory O'Malley: Well, but yes, those are big movies, but like it look, it was and is a like Mormon, a pop cultural phenomenon.

[48:52] Josh Gad: Yeah, that can't be disputed, and with that, it is always a very strange thing, especially walking down the street and seeing kids recognize you for voice work that you've done. It's just very surreal, or walking through Disneyland.

[49:06] Rory O'Malley: Right.

[49:10] Josh Gad: Which I've done with you, which I was like, oh, please, Josh, no one's gonna know that it's you, and then it was like swarm.

[49:18] Rory O'Malley: Oh, it's surreal.

[49:18] Josh Gad: And you know, it's something that I pinch myself that I get to be that for so many kids because you know what Disney meant to me as a kid.

[49:29] Rory O'Malley: Yes, you had a framed letter from Michael Eisner that you got on your bar mitzvah on our wall in our college dorm room.

[49:37] Josh Gad: Yeah. I mean, like, I was I what I'm always been amazed by with the company and specifically with Walt Disney, who is one of my idols, and I really do believe that John Lasseter is the reincarnation of that man. It's this ability to cross over into so many different generations, cross over and have such appeal to people who are 90, to people who are two, to people who don't speak any English, to people who only speak English, um, you know, to people who suffer from you know incredible disabilities to people who are you know successful athletes. There isn't anyone in the world that you can look at and say, Oh, I don't know or love Mickey Mouse. I don't and there's something about that that's very unique, and to be a part of that legacy is something I'm incredibly proud of because again my grandparents grew up as kids watching Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.

My mother grew up as a kid watching The Jungle Book. I grew up as a kid watching The Little Mermaid. My kids are growing up watching Frozen. And so these touchstones become seminal moments in all of our lives.

[51:10] Rory O'Malley: Right.

[51:10] Josh Gad: And I think that that's part of what has been the appeal for so long. Is there aren't many companies that for a hundred years have been capturing the imagination of a human being on the planet, yeah.

[51:29] Rory O'Malley: It's no, it's remarkable.

[51:32] Josh Gad: It really is. And I think that that letter on your wall Eisner.

[51:38] Rory O'Malley: Which is so embarrassing.

[51:40] Josh Gad: I mean, that really is it's it's another part of the story that I don't think people realize, which makes me so happy for you that you are getting to be a part of Disney in this way, and clearly they love you.

[51:54] Josh Gad: It's mutual. Um you go through that experience of Frozen, and so was that was there another like what's how do I top this? Is it is this evening woman?

[52:09] Josh Gad: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, so after Frozen, it becomes there's oh my god, you know, I hit the jackpot again, and now I have to make the right decisions. Um, but I what I didn't want to have happen was to fall into you know repetition. So I was lucky enough to read this incredible script called The Wedding Ringer um by Jeremy Gerlich, starring Kevin Hart. And I was obsessed with Kevin, and I thought, you know, that what a great way to sort of venture out and do like an R-rated comedy, something people wouldn't necessarily think of me for.

[52:47] Rory O'Malley: And so was this character based on you?

[52:51] Josh Gad: No, that character was not based on you.

[52:53] Rory O'Malley: Okay.

[52:53] Josh Gad: Sorry.

[52:55] Rory O'Malley: It's alright.

[52:56] Josh Gad: Not all of them will be based on you, right?

[52:59] Rory O'Malley: Every three years, I'll base one.

[53:01] Josh Gad: So only the ones that are cultural phenomenons. So I um I did this movie, and then you know, again, I started getting a lot of comedy opportunities, Pixels and you know, different stuff. And I was once again, I was very grateful for that opportunity and thrilled that I got to play with people who frankly I admire the hell out of from Adam Sandler, who we grew up watching too. Um Kevin, but again, I started to feel like I was falling into this, you know, trap of doing the same thing again and again. And so one day I, you know, sort of said to my team, I want to shake things up a little bit. I wanna I want the stuff that I'm doing to really challenge me. Because I feel like a lot of this I'm so grateful to do, and I want to keep doing it, but I'm worried that I'm gonna bore my audience because I'm doing the same thing over and over.

[54:11] Rory O'Malley: Right.

[54:11] Josh Gad: And so I started reading a lot of interesting scripts. Um, I you know, I was lucky enough to be um go going back to even Beauty and the Beast. I was lucky enough to be offered Beauty and the Beast, and it was a great opportunity to sort of marry these different skill sets that I did, which I hadn't been able to. We don't get many opportunities to do a live action musical.

[54:33] Rory O'Malley: Right.

[54:33] Josh Gad: You've done one, you know, and Dream Girls.

[54:35] Rory O'Malley: I have never had the opportunity to do it.

[54:39] Josh Gad: So, you know, Beauty and the Beast came along, um, this small drama called Um Marshall, which is coming out this fall, Murder on the Orient Express, and you know, along the way I did movies like Thanks for Sharing and Love and Other. Ladies and gentlemen, I just want you to know that when you hear that banging, it's not your eardrums, your car. I'm sorry. Josh is very animated in real life as well, and he needs to keep using his hands.

[55:07] Rory O'Malley: I have a gavel in my hand, which is banging right now.

[55:11] Josh Gad: So, you know, it was for me. I'm at this new phase in my career where while I'm still doing the stuff that I've always done, and you know, be continuing to bring animated characters to life and do comedies. Um I'm looking for opportunities to challenge myself, challenge my audiences, and you know, and I'm desperate to get back and do the stage. I'm desperate to to do, you know, what you're doing again. Because I really miss it. I really do.

[55:45] Rory O'Malley: Um isn't it it's it's amazing to me, and I you know, like that, you know, you, Andrew, a bunch of folks that I know who've been in Broadway and who've had this tremendous success in TV and film, the enthusiasm and want to go back to Broadway or be back on stage. Obviously, I get it. I love being on stage, but I feel like it it's it actually fuels me more being in this show and being a part of this to just enjoy every second of it because everyone who's away from it for a period of time wants to be back, wants to be there. And of course, you know, everyone on Broadway wants to be able to have a TV and film career, and to be able, because honestly, that's a better way. That's a way to have a better Broadway career, is if you're in a TV or film show. Um but it's the draw is so strong for you for and for somebody else. Why do you think that is?

[56:47] Josh Gad: Well, I there's nothing like it. I mean, there's nothing it's it is the most gratifying, it's the most energetic, it's the most challenging, it's everything that you know we have trained for. And when you spend so much of your life um on a stage, right? Getting off that stage is um you go through withdrawal. You really do. There's nothing as um energizing, like I said, as being on a stage and sharing that intimacy with an audience, going on that journey together.

[57:42] Rory O'Malley: Um, you see, I have a stack over there. We're recording this in my office. There's hundreds of playbills of different shows that I've been fortunate to see. And every one of those experiences as an audience member was as profound for me as I'm sure it was enjoyable for the performer themselves, right? And so to be a part of that relationship, that give and take is something that I desperately long for again. Uh and you know I know that eventually I will get back, but it's it's five years going on five years now since I've put my foot on a stage, it's getting harder.

[58:25] Rory O'Malley: Right?

[58:25] Josh Gad: Four or five years.

[58:26] Rory O'Malley: Yeah.

[58:27] Josh Gad: Yeah.

[58:27] Rory O'Malley: Well, I mean, we opened six Mormon was the last time you were on a stage.

[58:31] Josh Gad: Yeah.

[58:31] Rory O'Malley: Wow.

[58:32] Josh Gad: Yeah, you left in summer of 2012.

[58:38] Rory O'Malley: So it'll be five years.

[58:39] Josh Gad: It'll be five years.

[58:40] Rory O'Malley: Yeah.

[58:41] Josh Gad: Wow. Producers, if you're listening, please call me. I'm ready.

[58:46] Rory O'Malley: Oh, please.

[58:51] Josh Gad: I'm ready. You know, like, I mean, I think I think that the hard part is is that when you do something like Book of Mormon, how do you follow it? How do you follow that up?

[59:00] Rory O'Malley: Well, apparently, if you're you or Andrew, you do Hamilton.

[59:03] Josh Gad: Well, I did a show of all time. But I didn't, I mean, the first the first things I did was two off-Broadway shows, A Little Miss Sunshine and Nobody Loves You at Second Stage, which was like in the in that first like six months after I left the show, which was great because it was kind of like under the radar and not too much.

[59:22] Josh Gad: Uh what was it? Was it um two gentlemen? What did you do at last? Comedy of errors. Comedy of errors, yes, which you were incredible in.

[59:30] Rory O'Malley: Thank you. Yeah, no, I mean I was able to do a lot of uh other theater off of Broadway. Um, but I think that that I always talk end up talking about nerds, that that whole thing. And I I actually I should talk about it with you because you were there when I got to a little bit of credit for that. Yeah, I mean, honestly, the I can I'm not in Hamilton if I'm not in accepting nerds, yeah.

[59:57] Josh Gad: So it was January 2nd of 2016, and you and I were in a Starbucks. We were talking about me doing, yeah, working on a show that I was writing about uh singing musicals in my basement as a kid, which I ended up doing at 30 last year, and uh I get an email on a Friday saying, Hey, this is an offer for you to play Bill Gates and what did I say and you flipped out.

[1:00:32] Rory O'Malley: I said it, I don't think this is real. I said I never even I didn't even know this was coming to Broadway.

[1:00:37] Josh Gad: And you were like, there was an article in deadline, yeah. I read about it. You've gotta do this. You freaked out.

[1:00:44] Rory O'Malley: I did. And I I couldn't stop laughing. And remember, I was like, I have to respond back to the director about getting the the script and the music, and you wrote the email.

[1:00:56] Josh Gad: Mm-hmm.

[1:00:57] Rory O'Malley: Because I was too nervous to write the email. That's that's me with Jeffrey Katzenberg. I can't even I get an offer or something. And I I'm too nervous to even respond reply on an email. I knew that it was the perfect marriage, and I was like, and it really does all work out brilliantly. Like, you know, you don't do that show, you you never get Hamilton.

[1:01:22] Josh Gad: No, and and and it's funny because it almost just became a huge audition for me to to show what I could how, you know, because as much as I loved getting to do Elder McKinley, it really was not even a song, it was like a portion of a song. You know, leading a big group number. And so to get to lead a show and have a casting director, Bethany Knox from Telsey cast nerds, and then see me do a run-through the day after we're canceled. That's why she called me two days later to be in Hamilton.

[1:01:52] Rory O'Malley: That's crazy.

[1:01:53] Josh Gad: Yeah, it it's it's insane. And uh you were definitely the person who not forced me to do nerds, but you were you have a way of like giving your opinion that is so black and white, like there's no it's you were like you would be an idiot not to do this.

[1:02:12] Rory O'Malley: It's all hyperbole. Yeah, when I when we graduated and I told you that I was moving to Los Angeles, you said you are an idiot.

[1:02:22] Josh Gad: I was right.

[1:02:23] Rory O'Malley: So mad at you.

[1:02:24] Josh Gad: I was right.

[1:02:24] Rory O'Malley: I you were not right. I was like, I got my my equity card in LA. I I know that I'm here living in LA now because I had those first few years out of college learning what it was. And I that's how I met Gary Marshall, worked at that theater for years.

[1:02:40] Josh Gad: You were wrong.

[1:02:41] Rory O'Malley: I was right. I still contend that you would have hit started much earlier had you listened to me. Um, but I mean it's it's definitely crazy uh that we were sitting in a Starbucks when that when that happened. Um so that's the other thing that I want to say, by the way, about living the dream. You can't live the dream alone.

[1:03:07] Josh Gad: Right. Friendship it is I think the most important thing because you need people to fall on. You need shoulders to cry on and you know bodies to celebrate with. And people who understand.

[1:03:28] Rory O'Malley: And people who understand. And through thick and thin, you know, you and I have always been in each other's lives during the greatest ups and the lowest downs. You know, um, and I think that that is so important. And I think that a group that you can surround yourself with people who share the same, you know, pitfalls and um and high moments is it's that's as important as any of the other stuff.

[1:04:05] Josh Gad: Yeah. Well, I mean, and I think that it's it takes a little while to get past and learn how the reality is that other people's success is not your failure, others people's journey is not your failure, but you need to be beside them and with them when what is that? That's my jingle.

[1:04:31] Rory O'Malley: Why why is it to tell you it's that's my jingle. So, like it's I it's all being recorded on a garage ban, and it just started to go off. It's basically like telling me it's been an hour.

[1:04:45] Josh Gad: So it just went off in my headset.

[1:04:47] Rory O'Malley: What is that?

[1:04:49] Josh Gad: Well, I just don't understand why. Somebody's singing in your headphones.

[1:04:53] Rory O'Malley: Someone, it's me. Um, I was gonna say that you you learn that other people's success is not your failure. And also that you need to be there for your friends, not just for their downtimes and their failures, but you need to actually be a support system through their success.

[1:05:09] Josh Gad: Oh, yeah. That that some of my highest points is when I've needed my friends, when I've needed Gerald, when I've needed, because it the the fear and the and the uh you can feel a little alienated or like I don't know, it's just it's scary.

[1:05:26] Rory O'Malley: It is scary. And there's there's nothing like the validation of the people you know closest, or the criticism of the people you know closest. You know, you want that honesty. I always want you to tell me you, you know, you could do better. Or you're coasting, you know, whether it's you or Seth or whoever is in my life, especially Ida, my wife, she wastes no time telling me when I suck. But it it's important to remind people of what they can do, what they are capable of. Where what who they are and why they're in it.

[1:06:03] Josh Gad: Yeah, it's it's tough. It it gets it gets easier in a lot of ways as you go, but it also gets more complicated, you know. As you know, before we end here, is like I think that another thing that I'll say that's nice is you have so hard created it's very hard. I know, I can't see it. You've created this wonderful family. And you know, you got married in 2008.

[1:06:34] Rory O'Malley: So you've been married for a while, you have two beautiful daughters who you know I'm obsessed with, who are just the most amazing people, and and you're a wonderful dad, a great husband, and that's always been something that's more impressive and inspiring to me way more than anything you've done professionally. And I I think, you know, especially for a podcast like this, that the thing that scared me most when I got out of school and realized that I that I was how difficult it was gonna be as an actor wasn't that I wasn't gonna be able to l uh live my dream as uh a performer being on stage. It was oh my god, am I gonna be able to have a family? Am I gonna be able to afford to raise a child and do this? Like that that just seemed crazy to me.

[1:07:30] Josh Gad: Um how do you feel like you were able to? I mean, obviously, you know, the more success you have, the easier it is, but really when you got married and we, you know, there there were things happening, but it's scary always, right?

[1:07:43] Rory O'Malley: It's always it's always scary, and it's especially like I think that with what we do, there's always this fear. And as Gerald and I are in this, you know, moment in time where we really want to start a family, I feel pretty secure, but I'm like, my God, I'm an actor. This is crazy that I'm gonna bring a a child into my my home, and how am I going to provide for it till it's 18 and beyond? Never stops being scary.

[1:08:12] Josh Gad: Um, you know, I think that a bigger factor than I ever considered, you know, you nobody can teach you that in school. But one of the big the biggest factors in making decisions in your life becomes your kids.

[1:08:28] Rory O'Malley: Right.

[1:08:29] Josh Gad: And how do you how will your decisions affect them? Uh you know, I was just away for three months shooting a movie in England. Right. It's not easy, you know, and it takes a toll. And so it's about balance. Um, but I think in general, you know, you go where the best opportunities are, and you have to work with what you got and figure out then I'll fly home on the weekends, or you know, you're here right now in Los Angeles, knowing full well that you gotta get back on a plane tomorrow to do a show tomorrow night. I'm sure that takes a toll physically. And so it's you make those commitments, you make those sacrifices in some cases because you have to balance it.

[1:09:17] Rory O'Malley: Right.

[1:09:18] Josh Gad: Yeah. And it's worth it. Like it's what it's all for. I feel like at the end of the day, I'm always drawn to people in our business who have a really strong family connection because I think that they are not just happier, but they have better careers because they're choosing things out of love and for the right reasons, and I don't know. I I I think that that has been a part of your success is that you know what's most important in life.

[1:09:56] Rory O'Malley: And I think that comes across to audiences that you are a joyful person and that you the the the kid who loves Disney and understands the power of human connection in that way from a young age is someone who can communicate to an audience and make them laugh.

[1:10:19] Josh Gad: I was so proud to watch you. I was by myself watching Beauty and the Beast, and the the belly laughs that you were getting in that theater, and to think that you know that kid who had the Michael Eisner letter on his wall was getting the biggest laughs in a Disney major motion picture. I don't know. It's it's it's crazy. And I think that um hopefully you can feel that more. Because I know when you're in it, it's hard to like really feel it. Hopefully, through my eyes and through my experience, you can feel that more. And that's uh it's it is it never I never stopped pinching myself, as I'm sure you do too.

[1:11:08] Rory O'Malley: I mean, I I I like I remember calling you one night when Obama came to see your show and just being like the president of the United States of America at the time. Um I won't make any political comments right now, but the president of the United States came to see your show.

[1:11:26] Josh Gad: Well, Hillary came.

[1:11:28] Rory O'Malley: And twice. Hillary came.

[1:11:29] Josh Gad: And everybody Obama didn't come when I was there.

[1:11:33] Rory O'Malley: Oh, well then I you m did you call Leslie?

[1:11:39] Josh Gad: I confuse you guys so much.

[1:11:41] Rory O'Malley: I know.

[1:11:41] Josh Gad: We look a lot alike.

[1:11:42] Rory O'Malley: But who was it that came? Or Beyoncé? Somebody came when you were there, and I was like, how like you're meeting the craziest people in the world.

[1:11:52] Josh Gad: You you called me a few times when when people were calling me. Like Paul McCartney, Paul McCartney. I think that's what you that got a call from you. But like you're living the dream. Like we are living the dream.

[1:12:02] Rory O'Malley: Yeah.

[1:12:05] Josh Gad: And I'm disappointed that you didn't meet Obama now.

[1:12:08] Rory O'Malley: I'm actually You are.

[1:12:09] Josh Gad: I actually feel like I lost a little respect.

[1:12:12] Rory O'Malley: I actually joined the cast a week after they all got to go to the White House.

[1:12:16] Josh Gad: Right.

[1:12:17] Rory O'Malley: He came like three times too.

[1:12:19] Josh Gad: That's gotta suck, Rory.

[1:12:20] Rory O'Malley: I know. He's gonna go back now that I'm not there. I'm gonna get him to come to the LA production.

[1:12:28] Josh Gad: Um I'm so proud of you. I'm so proud that we got to take this journey together. And I love that you finally put me on this podcast. I'm I'm only what episode is this.

[1:12:39] Rory O'Malley: This is the final episode of shit.

[1:12:48] Josh Gad: Uh no, it is. I I don't I don't know what it is. It's probably like 22.

[1:12:52] Rory O'Malley: It only took 22.

[1:12:53] Josh Gad: Only 22. That's where you about where you are on my list of people.

[1:12:59] Rory O'Malley: Um, I'm I'm really glad that you not only that you did it, but that you want to do it. Obviously, Josh, you were one of the first people that I wanted to talk to. But I wanted I this is also uh something that I'm learning how to do is talk to people and how to listen to them and like what this is, and you know, I knew that you were someone who was gonna be great, and it it clearly was a very interesting conversation, and I'd love to have another one again, checking in a year.

[1:13:28] Josh Gad: Absolutely and see how you're doing.

[1:13:31] Rory O'Malley: It's gonna be called Living the Nightmare.

[1:13:36] Josh Gad: Yeah, I'll have to come up with a new jingle.

[1:13:38] Rory O'Malley: Alright, love you.

[1:13:39] Josh Gad: Love you.

[1:13:41] Josh Gad: Audition, side job, swimming upstream. Believe it or not, you're living the dream.