This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Jessica Rush: Thank you so much for tuning in to Mamas Talkin' Loud.

[0:03] Cara Cooper: Jess and I love bringing these stories to you, amplifying the journey of the working artist mom, supporting the struggle, and striving to change the social safety net.

[0:11] Jessica Rush: But we need your help.

[0:13] Cara Cooper: If you haven't already, we would so appreciate if you would follow, rate, and review us wherever you listen to your podcast.

[0:19] Jessica Rush: This is the way we can continue to raise awareness and change the narrative.

[0:23] Cara Cooper: And if you want more insight into our world, please follow us on Instagram at Mamas Talkin' Loud, on Twitter at Mamas Talkin' Pod, and on our website, www.mamastalkinloud.com.

[0:35] Jessica Rush: Hi, everyone. Thanks so much for tuning in to this episode of Mamas Talkin' Loud.

[0:39] Cara Cooper: I'm Jessica Rush.

[0:40] Cara Cooper: And I'm Cara Cooper.

[0:42] Jessica Rush: Best known for originating the titular character in the original Broadway production of Mary Poppins. Our guest first made her Broadway debut as Belle after starring in the national tour of On the Record right out of college.

[0:53] Cara Cooper: She is a Disney darling for sure.

[0:56] Jessica Rush: Yeah. She also, though, is no stranger to the classics, touring the country as Mother Abbess in The Sound of Music until she was eight months pregnant.

[1:04] Cara Cooper: Oh my God, thank goodness for that nun's habit, right?

[1:07] Jessica Rush: She joins us today to share that hilarious story as well as her struggles with postpartum depression and secondary infertility. Please enjoy our conversation with our friend Ashley Brown.

[1:19] ♪ Musical number: "Mama's Talkin' Loud" — performed by Unknown artist ♪

[1:46] Ashley Brown: Hey girls, what's up?

[1:51] Jessica Rush: We are so happy to see you.

[1:53] Ashley Brown: I'm so happy to see your face, my friends.

[1:55] Cara Cooper: No, y'all too. It's been too long.

[1:57] Ashley Brown: I mean, this year.

[1:58] Cara Cooper: It feels like five years.

[1:59] Ashley Brown: Oh my god.

[2:00] Cara Cooper: A century, you mean?

[2:01] Ashley Brown: Mm-hmm.

[2:02] Cara Cooper: Yes, literally a century.

[2:05] Ashley Brown: Literally, that's what my forehead says.

[2:07] Cara Cooper: And that's Honey. If you can see these roots.

[2:10] Ashley Brown: The grays, all of it.

[2:13] Cara Cooper: I know, I know.

[2:15] Ashley Brown: Oh my god. Well, we always start off by having our guests tell us about their child or their children. So will you tell us?

[2:21] Cara Cooper: This is like I feel like I'm opening a can of worms at this one. But will you tell us about Emiline?

[2:31] Ashley Brown: So Emiline Rose Whistler is something to behold. Honey. She is four years old. She's gonna be five May 9th, which is absolutely insane. Um, in some ways feels like the longest five years of my life, and then at the same time, I'm like, I cannot believe my baby's five. Like, what has happened? It's lots of mixed emotions, of course. And you know, she is such a blend of my husband and I. It's daily, it's um, I think it's starting to lean more towards me, you know, just like not outgoing introvert. Just kidding. But you know, she's awesome and she is she's gonna run something someday. Um, it's just right now, I'm just doing all I can for it to not be running us, but I don't want to swash.

[3:21] Cara Cooper: I was gonna say, I was gonna say she's been running you guys.

[3:24] Ashley Brown: Yes, and I'm she was bored. I mean, y'all, she came out talking and like having opinions, and I'm like, Are you not allowed to do that yet? Like, you're just not, but she is. She feels she is. And but she is loving and sweet and hilarious. You know, it's like this age right now, y'all know. I mean, the one-liners are I live for them, yeah, because they're so literal in the way they see and hear things and you know, explain things, and I'm like, that's the most perfect description of that feeling or that moment, and you're just like, That's hilarious. Because as adults, you're like, Well, we wouldn't really be able to say that. Um, because we know better. Um, but she is, you know, our kids are so resilient, and through this whole year, we moved um down to be near my family for the year.

We still have our house up in Jersey, but you know, we asked her to go to a new school and do new things, and she was like, Okay, okay, okay. And meanwhile, I'm like, is she ever gonna be able to handle it? And she did, she does, and she is um, you know, a leader, and I love seeing that. Um, she's funny. I mean, but we have with those strong personalities come some hard times and some meltdowns and some, you know, and it's just you know, so again, ups and downs, I'm just saying it's keeping it real.

[4:47] Cara Cooper: I love that she's so um knows what she wants, strong-willed, like there's so many things that are so great about that, but there's also like because she won't eat new foods, she will starve herself. Um, I think we went on 48 hours because she wouldn't even sit in front of her. Would not won't budge. Potty training, she stopped eating because she realized that made her go to the bathroom, so she's like, I'm not doing this. And then when I made it her decision and said, You're the only person in the whole world that can tell mommy and daddy when you have to go. Like you're the only one that knows. That clicked, and she was like, Oh, I have to go to the potty, and we never looked back, like we didn't even have to use night diapers. She was done. And that's Emmeline in a nutshell.

[5:34] Cara Cooper: Well, if that doesn't sum somebody up, I don't know what does. But I it's so like you're talking about this little girl who's so strong-willed, and I feel like it must be so hard because you don't want to break that, right? Because like the hardest thing about being a woman is like holding to your guns and holding on to what you believe is right, and so you want to support that the best that you can so that she can grow up and have these convictions, but also like she needs to be able to go to the bathroom and she needs to eat food and not go on a hunger strike. So it must be a very hard line for you to walk.

[6:07] Ashley Brown: It is because at the same time, sometimes she's so convincing that I'm like, Hold on a second. I do know more than you. Like, like, hold on, like, and I'm a very strong woman too. So I mean, we have a little bit of that going on. Because I'm like, hold on. No, I know better than you. I always will get into it. You know what I mean?

[6:26] Cara Cooper: Right.

[6:26] Ashley Brown: But sometimes I have to remind myself because she wants to pick out her outfits. She tells me how her hair, like, I'm telling y'all, it's very rarely does she go, okay, mommy. Okay. You know, no. She doesn't. And I do have to remember I I have to jump in because I was thinking about us being on Marco Polo one day, this before the pandemic, when you were trying to potty train her. I will I will never it's so funny. I love it. You were like sitting there chatting with me, and y'all were in the living room or something. You're like, Emiline, Emiline, don't you go on this floor? Don't you go on this carpet? Emiline, and then you're like, I gotta go. And you just like drop the phone.

[7:06] Cara Cooper: Because she fully started to go.

[7:07] Ashley Brown: She was just standing there, like staring at you, thinking, I'm just gonna do this here, Mom, because that's what I want to do.

[7:07] Cara Cooper: Because that's what I want to do, and I know you want me to go there.

[7:16] Ashley Brown: And then there's also the game we play, I'm like, Don't you put that in your mouth, don't you sit on that? And then she's like, see, I'm like, that's actually probably not healthy, but it sometimes it hurts.

[7:27] Cara Cooper: Oh, it's true. These southern girls, honey, because you know.

[7:32] Ashley Brown: But then the turnaround, though, she's meeting friends, she's at school and little VPK, little you know, she starts kindergarten next year, beyond. And she knows she has these little friends, and I said, Well, I haven't heard about Luca in a while. Like, you used to talk about him all the time. And she goes, Well, mommy, I said to him, Luca, if you're not gonna be friends with me every day, no matter what, then we have some things to discuss. I s and I died laughing, and I was kind of I was like, Well, Emiline, that's very direct, but I was like, get it, girl, I kinda feel the same way. You gotta be consistent with your friendship. You can't be all willy-nilly. So I'm like, There's that.

[8:09] Cara Cooper: But just four.

[8:11] Ashley Brown: She is your daughter.

[8:12] Cara Cooper: No, I just the stories, it just make me so happy.

[8:16] Ashley Brown: She kills me.

[8:18] Cara Cooper: Yes. And you kill me. I mean, you like Ashley. I just you know, one of the things I love about you, like, you know, you're an open book, you sh say it like it is, and um, there are you know, you tend to talk a lot.

[8:30] Ashley Brown: I talk a lot.

[8:31] Cara Cooper: That's why I think you know, when Ashley and I get together, y'all I have to tell a little another little side note. We Broadway baby mamas, we would try to have these mom's night out because we wanted to have community here in the city. This was before we started the podcast, even and we would have mom's night out, and people would say, Oh, I'm coming, I'm coming. And then slowly but surely, as the day wore on, more people backed out, more people backed out. And one time I showed up for mom's night out, and I'm standing at front of this restaurant all by myself. And I knew, and at this point, Ashley was the only one who had not canceled. And I texted her, and I was like, Girl, I'm it's just me. Like, I know you have to come from Hoboken or Jersey, whatever. And I was like, it's okay, like, no one else is here. She's like, Honey, I've already left the house. I'm headed to the ferry and I'm coming.

[9:15] Ashley Brown: Fiercest little little dates.

[9:17] Cara Cooper: It was so fun. It was just the two of us. And I think Emiline was like eight months old at this point, so I was like, Honey, mama's heading out and I don't have a curfew.

[9:25] Ashley Brown: Yeah.

[9:26] Cara Cooper: You know, I didn't. I was like, shoot, and we had so much fun. Remember, we met Eric after the show, and he was like, Y'all had fun. I'm like, obviously.

[9:36] Ashley Brown: Obviously, always.

[9:38] Cara Cooper: Um, so let's talk about, let's talk about before Miss Emiline came in to be, you know.

[9:43] Ashley Brown: That's well, she was she was there, but I want you to tell our people. So we've talked to women who are pregnant while they were working. Kara and I both worked while we were pregnant, but we had to leave relatively early on due to you know the costumes not showing what you know the costumes not uh being what we could wear. You know, half tops don't really work with a pregnant belly. Um unless perhaps mom.

[10:10] Ashley Brown: But tell us about you were doing a Sound of Music when you were pregnant with Emiline, and am I correct in thinking that you stayed in that show until you were like eight months pregnant?

[10:21] Ashley Brown: Eight months, like I was waddling. And I told Jack O'Brien, who was our director, who was awesome. I was like, So I think I'm gonna leave at six months. He's like, darling, why? Why? And I was like, Well, I just feel like out of respect for the show, he was like, No, I want uh you have to stay until like you can stay until you give birth. I was like, Well, shoot, I mean, who usually says that? And I was like, Okay, I mean, I'll stay until like it's laughable, and I did stay till it was laughable.

[10:52] Cara Cooper: Well, because you were playing Mother Abbess.

[10:54] Ashley Brown: I mean, it's so irony is just too good. The eye was a pregnant nun. And the funniest part about all that with life being life, and that everybody's journey is meant for them, is I mean, it is a perfect example. So Daniel and I were trying to get pregnant for a couple of years, it wasn't happening. We did all this testing, and they're like, nothing is wrong with either of you, which is super exciting. Slash, well, then what the heck? Um, so I was like, I got called in to go for this tour, and obviously I was thinking like I might be a Maria.

[11:27] Cara Cooper: Yeah.

[11:27] Ashley Brown: Um, and then my agent called. I mean, hello. I was at the time I was like only 33. I'm like, I'm so sure.

[11:37] Cara Cooper: I wish there was video for this episode. Cause like the telling, your face, like the listeners are missing out a little bit.

[11:44] Ashley Brown: But go on.

[11:46] Cara Cooper: We just have we're gonna have you back into just like Kiki on a video, and then we'll have a special special episode.

[11:52] Ashley Brown: We should. So I go in and sing the you know for Maria, and Jack was super sweet, and he was like, You just have to be part of this show. And I was like, I never thought I would tour again, but I had never auditioned for Jack before, so I was like, let me just go in and you know, never say never in this business, as we all know. And so my agent called me like two days later, and he's like, Are you sitting down? And I said, I was thinking, like, oh, I got the part, whatever. And he was like, So Jack had this dream last night, and he wants you to be the Mother Abbess. And I was like, it excuse me? That's like me playing the role of like the churning the butter at the opening of Oklahoma. Like, I'm just not there yet.

And I was like, Hold on, like, are you like climb every mountain girl? Like, are you kidding me? Shoot. And I was like, I'm a little insulted and slash. He was like, Well, he has this whole new take on the show. Anyways, long story long, he was like, my agents were like, just go meet with him and tell him your concerns. Cause I was like, you know, I've played Mary Poppins and I was like 25 at the time when I was playing the part, but it's always aged me more than I am. And I've been told I have a maternal, you know, thing about me. Well-get it. But I was thinking, I'm like, the last thing I need to do is go play the old lady in the shoe in some music. So I was like, I just feel like I don't know, and blah blah blah. Well, it turns out, you know, Jack, as y'all know him too, he could like sell ketchup to a woman in white gloves.

[13:19] Ashley Brown: I was sold. And it was I was wanted to work with him, and it was a great experience. Cut to, I'm in rehearsals, and Daniel and I had done nothing different with our, you know, fertility journey, other than just like be married and like, you know, do it sometime. And all of a sudden, I'm in LA in tech. So I made author rehearsals in New York. And I'm in LA in tech, and I was like, gosh, I'm so tired, or I just like I'm not feeling good, but never once in my wildest dreams did I think I was pregnant. I was like, I'm sure I have a blood disorder. I'm like, I'm only going on and singing one song and then doing a strong reprise, and you know, I'm so it's like tech is not that exhausting for me. And there's no reason I should be this tired.

Anyways, I go, I get a positive pregnancy test, and I cannot believe it. And so, and my due date was the same day, y'all. Sick 'cause I was only doing the first six months as um I sorry. No, so my original due date, because I didn't know how pregnant I was, was like the same date as the end of my contract for Zona Music. And so I was like, well that would mean I'm like really, really far along, like I ha you know, but anyways. So I was like, oh my gosh, this looks like I got the contract, walked down the street, got IVF, and then signed it. Like it just all was lining up like I did it on purpose. And I was like, I really didn't. And so once we got to the point where we were telling people and I was gonna leave and anyways, they were super supportive.

But since I was playing Mother Abbess, because I was really not wanting to play the role and I was like, there's a reason this role is in my life. Let me just go with it. This is super weird. I had every out in the book. I'm like, why not? And here it was is I this was supposed to be my journey where I could be in a role with no waistline. Hey hey and I was in a sensible flat. Hey hey hey hey and you know all that they needed was and this, you know, face and a voice. And that's what they got. And I was able to waddle my way through. But y'all I literally you know towards the end I was truly and then at the stage door people were like oh my gosh you're a pregnant Mother Abbess and I said, yes, this and it's hysterical.

I loved it. I wanna know how big that nun's habit like how what the circular circumference was of that robe girl because to cover a n I mean, any eight month pregnant woman for the most part. And also to have it not be apparent since you are a nun. Yes. I mean, and of course, you know you have to hold your hands like this the whole time. I mean obviously my hands got higher and higher. I'll eventually I was like But the time I almost la ha ha host it is at you know in the show in The Sound of Music where the Mother Abbess like opens the gate for the family to walk up the end of the show. Well, I actually had a key that actually had to open the gate, you know, because Jack doesn't like anything to be pretend and y'all the end it of the like the my run, the keys 'cause it had to hang on my belt.

So obviously my belt kept getting higher and higher and literally one of the shows I couldn't find the key 'cause it was under my pregnant boob and in between the belly I couldn't find it. And I was like trying to find the key and all the nuns were like Meanwhile everybody's supposed to be like in jo I was like, This is it I've got to call it. Y'all I can't find my s like it was like a muni sized key. It was massive. And I could I was like and I couldn't and everybody and I was like, climb like I couldn't I get it together. And that's when I called Jack and I said, Jack, I think we've hit the point. I said, I'll give you one more city, I'll give it Atlanta. It's all I wanted to make it to Atlanta 'cause it's closest to my hometown and so everybody could see in the waddle.

And then that was it. But y'all I was able to do it for so long. And even when the week came I'm like, I probably could do another three weeks. Like I could. Because the best part is like my voice got so I'm sure y'all notice like in your voices too and you're pregnant, it changes and my voice was just so much richer. Like I normally wouldn't have been able to sound that meaty on that song. Anyways, it's just I knew that was a longer story than necessary, but it was just more one of those things that came my way and it was so confusing. And I took it not knowing why, and then like my why was being pregnant and being able to stay in the show and play a role for so long that like you guys said, like normally we have to have a waistline and I just didn't. I just love that Jack, like you said, I think I'm gonna w work to this point.

He's like, No, you're not, you're gonna stay even longer. I mean that A that never happens, B coming from a man who has no experience being pregnant. Like, I just think that's incredible that that was the way your news was received. Absolutely, because I was so nervous that it was I was gonna be in trouble, which is should not be how any of us ever feel, but it's truthful. And I felt like I was gonna be judged by like the because the alignment of it was so freaky, it like there's even to me, I'm like, There's no way this could have been natural. Like, how did this happen? And so I feel like when I told him I was so nervous that he was gonna be mad at me because you know, he wanted me to kind of head the show and put my name on it, and I said I would, and like I just felt like I was had a lot of responsibility within that cast, and again, I you know, it's just how we all feel.

It's just kind of we're so excited, but we feel guilty, and it's I want that to change for all of us. Well, yeah, it's I was gonna say we just talked to Rachel Spencer Hewitt uh last month and she is you know the founder of PAL, Parent Artist Advocacy League, and um we s exact she told us her story and at the end of it she said, You should walk in the room when you tell this news to whomever you're telling, your agents, your managers, the people you're working with, you should expect celebration and then when there if there isn't any, that should be the anomaly, as opposed to us saying, Oh my god, that's amazing that he responded in that way. Like we should we should expect to have response in that way.

And then when they don't respond that way with support and celebration, then we have a problem. Yeah. And that's how that's what needs to change. And I feel too it's just such a stigma with the women in our business because I mean I remember in my early twenties, I remember a producer. Um I I took I was doing a workshop of a new show, and I was like, I was curious why you didn't use um the person who had been doing it, and they're like, Oh, well, she had a baby, and that just changes everything for a while. Oh. And I was in my early twenties and didn't understand it, and I was like, Oh, I was like, Well, what do you mean he was like, it's just something you can't explain. When a woman has a child, she's just no longer able to be childlike.

She's not no longer able to be the ingenue. And I remember that really stuck with me, and I was like, Well, aren't we acting? Like, aren't we actors? I'm just kind of like, I'm like, so she you hired me because she had a kid. Like, I just remember being like, There’s something I can't quite grasp, because like I said, I was so not in that time in my life and in my early twenties, but I remember being like, That is not okay. Yeah, it's not okay. And guess and that same person when that show came back around after I had an Emily and said the same thing to my agent. So he still hasn't he still hasn't learned. Wow. Just say it's a thing. I can't wait for you to sidebar to tell me. Oh, I will. I know.

It's like I'm not gonna talk ugly. I'm not gonna talk ugly. But I will behind the scenes. But that narrative is formative no matter what, because like you're we're all ingesting that as we're coming up through the business, and that's what feeds that fear to say I'm pregnant. Like we've heard those stories over and over again. We've seen it in the works. So why would it why would we not be fearful to be to celebrate our news? And this is why we have this podcast and these conversations amplifying the voice of the working artist, mother, or parent even. Although let's be honest, it doesn't really tend to affect the men. Um that is what is so important. And that's why Cara and I continue to have these conversations.

It's just we are at a point like Anne Quartz said, honey, who I know you know well, children, the time for children to be contraband is over. It has to be. And I feel like I mean honestly like I have so much um guilt and resentment like towards those feelings that our business has made us feel. And again, I mean I'm not blaming but I the business for what I experienced after birth when I I've never struggled with depression my whole life I've always been a genuinely upbeat person. Um some people in my family have struggled with it and so I've always kind of felt like well am I and I'm like well no I'm actually like I'm good. Um but I do feel the pressures of once I gave birth to Emma line to pretend that my life hadn't changed and I was um auditioning to take over for um what's her butt in Cats two weeks and my agent the and in front of Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tara Rubin two weeks after I've given birth I'm like I still have a pad to like because I'm still healing and I'm there singing memory.

And two weeks after birth because I was so afraid I didn't want anyone to think I was falling behind because I gave I created a human life and I feel like I mean it's so when I look back because you know, after you have like your first kid, you're just you're this is all new to you too. We're not born to know how to do it. The women are not like we're just like men in that way. It's like we've not done this before either, like we're trying to make it work. And I so I feel like because I pushed myself so hard after birth, and that was just like I think it was like not even two weeks, and then I auditioned for other things because I was like, and people that you know I'm friends with on Facebook that would be in the rooms, they're like, didn't you just have a kid like 11 days ago?

And I was like, Yeah, can't keep me down. And I'm like, that's how like what a disservice that was to myself. And I feel like that push like really led to I mean, I know postpartum depression has a lot to do with hormonal and a bunch of things, but I definitely think that played a part in me feeling um depressed and just because I didn't allow myself just to be a mom and to have that moment and to take a second and not feel like I was gonna be left behind. Yeah. And I that's just a feeling that I honestly everybody who's giving birth right during this pandemic, I'm jealous. I'm like, y'all don't have the I mean, no not I mean the pandemic is horrible, but I'm saying like I'm almost jealous of all these new the moms in our business having babies right now because there is no sh struggle to go back.

No one's asking that of them. No one's saying, Well, you should be doing this and you should be doing this and you should have already lost the weight and you should have already this the show's been cast now. Sorry you were taking care, you know, it's like that's not happening to them right now. And I'm envious a little bit that they're able to, you know, but that's also has a lot to do with my choices too. Like I let that affect me. Big time. It's so interesting that you say all this about, you know, postpartum depression because it's a conversation, right? We we hear about it all the time, but still the the images that we are fed and the way that we are taught that women need to come back from giving birth don't line up with supporting postpartum depression.

You see the perfect image of the beautifully put together mother who's had a shower, who shed the baby weight, who's going back to work, who's doing all the things. Those are the images that we're fed, and we're also fed the narrative from work that we can't talk about our kids. So here we are grappling with this new identity. You like you've created a human, you're a mom now, which wasn't what you were prior to that. You're dealing with hormones, you may be depressed, and you're and society is telling you, nope, you're not allowed to feel all those things, you just gotta jump right back in. So even though the conversation about postpartum depression is happening, we're not doing anything as a society to be like, it's okay.

It's okay to be a mom right now. And guess what? There will be a place for you at work when you are ready to come back. That's the big problem. We're so afraid of like losing our spot. And it's not just in our industry, right? It's in any industry of a working mother who feels like taking time away from work is gonna put them back, is gonna set them back exactly. And so you know, the everybody rushes back in and I mean I think about it before we're ready. Before you're ready. I I I have to say, like, my agent, um, when I had Elliot at the time, you know, I've talked about this before. Talk, that was weird. I've talked about this before about um an audition coming up for Sideshow and having to turn it down, and I was so depressed about it.

And I was like, She's only two weeks old, like I can't, you know, I'll never have this time again. And my agent, um, rest in peace, Joel Carlton, who was amazing, he said to me, The business will always be here. He was like, Take this time. He's like, Your baby will only be a baby once. And this was a man who was not a father. He, you know, he he but he had empathy and and and he was he recognized that this was a super special time and that I should not be stressing about coming back to a business that honey will forget about me in two seconds if I don't post something on Instagram or don't have a followers.

[26:41] Ashley Brown: Do you know what I mean? Like I mean, this is they they're not he's like he said, it will always be here. And that was from the person who relied on me to have a job. Because you know what I mean? So and so we all need to treat it as such. We all need to recognize that the business will always be here. It's as fickle as it comes, honey. But it will be there. And when the time comes and you're ready to go back, you'll come back.

[27:04] Yeah. And I have to say, I mean, my agent was definitely like, let me know when you want to come back. So I mean I and they were supportive of it, and it was I mean, I think it was more me feeling, you know, I and I also feel like just feeling like I wasn't able to fall back, and that's a lot with my personality. It's just it's a flaw, you know, it that I've learned it's a flaw. I used to think it was like because I'm so driven, or you know, and I do have a like there's part of me that's a big perfectionist, and I'm like, I'm supposed like what I'm supposed to do, and I but I don't even know who's telling me that I'm supposed to, you know what I mean? It's all that that like weird thing, and also it's just the because in our business and in our society, it's like I feel like if we have depression or we need more time, it's a sign of weakness versus and and I don't feel like we're allowed to be weaker than people already view us, you know, and that's what's you know is wrong with our society too.

It's like men get a break constantly, and if we say we need a second or we're struggling, or we can't keep our head above water, it's like, oh well, probably shouldn't work with them. They can't keep it together. You know, even though we can we're just like having a moment you know and so and because of what we do is it's so based on other people's opinion of you and other people's it's also subjective and it's also and us always feel like we have to control that narrative is a lot to take on to. And so I mean as I've you know if this pandemic has taught me anything it's that family and friends are everything and that our business just poof went away overnight and it's bizarre but at this end of the day it's like it's kind of a good lesson on what is your constant and what is there when you want it and you need it not necessarily for everybody else.

[28:56] Right. Absolutely no that's true for sure Ash we're gonna take a quick break.

[29:02] Don't go anywhere we'll be right back.

[29:10] Jessica Rush: I um I wanted to sort of talk about you've talked about you said before you guys had struggled to get pregnant with Emiline. Um and I know now you know that you guys have been trying well I'll let you talk about your journey but you wanted to give Emiline a sibling and I know you wanted to do that ages ago.

[29:31] Ashley Brown: Like yeah you know when she was born meanwhile you know in my house I was sort of on the fence and now we've decided like yeah now it's done. The fence has gone up and it's uh and I'm and I'm on the other side.

[29:44] So um for us that's you know one and done. But would you share with us a little bit because I don't think something else that's not talked about often is secondary infertility. And that is, I believe, a bit of what you're going through.

[29:57] Right. So this for those who don't know, secondary infertility is when you've had a child and then for reasons unknown, who knows why, or maybe you do and you realize after the fact, but you are unable to conceive another child a second time, even though you have done it before. And that is something I think we just never really hear about. We hear about IVF and we know about infertility struggles that people go on from the get go from the jump. But to go through that after having a child, um what is that what has that been like for you guys?

[30:30] Ashley Brown: You know, I mean it's been a lot of ups and downs and in the beginning and there's also days where we're like, no we're good. We're good with one. And then I'm like, well there's a part of my heart that doesn't feel complete. And then, you know, I'll you know especially like before the pandemic when I was working and my husband's working and we're like maybe this is all we can handle if I want to continue and he wants to continue doing what we're doing and you know so I have to say there have been have been times since I've given birth to Emiline that we're like, no we're good. Wait, no we want another one. No we're good. No we want another one. You know, it's like it's a big decision, you know and I'm like and I mean I like educated decisions like beyond.

And so but you know sometimes I'm like let go and let God and let's just whatever is meant for me will be and you know I have days where I'm very in line with that and then some days I'm like, but God, like I want to control like all the things.

[31:27] So I guess our journey with this has been and I do feel like a big part that about having a second kid is about my profession. And like I said, I mean it's it really, I would be lying and doing us all a disservice if I said anything different than that. And so I feel like I was starting to go with not having a second kid out of fear of like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna be out of the game again a couple of years. But I'm like, why do I have to think like that? Like it's not, you know, having a child is so much more important, or your family, or whatever you want for your family is so much more important than anything. And so of course the pandemic hits, everything goes away, and I'm going, oh my gosh, I got to the root of why I didn't want to have a second, and it was all about the business. And it's all about me and the business.

[32:12] And I have s again regret that I let that control me. And so now it's done for now, for now, for now, for now. And the business is closed, and I don't have my second baby that I actually really want over something that is so what's the word? Um seems right now just kind of not as important.

[32:38] Gone, you know? And you know who's still here is my husband and my baby. And and how much we've leaned on each other through thick and thin. Um and I regret again that I let that and of course what we do, we love our what we do. So it's okay to let that dictate things in your life and dictate your decision making. I mean, it's the only smart way to go about it is to look at your reality and what you want from your life um is extremely important. But I kind of let that talk me out of number two because I was afraid of being out of it for longer.

[33:14] And so this whole year I was thinking like, well, now and it taught me, and so in the beginning of this whole year, we've been trying, trying, trying, trying, and it's not happening. Because it's kinda and now I have all this like, oh my gosh, I put it on hold for something that went away overnight, and now we're having issues. Like, how dare I think that, oh, the minute I'm ready, it's just gonna be like poof. That doesn't that didn't happen for me, you know.

[33:36] So now again, we got pregnant naturally with Emiline, um, and now we are s actually starting our IVF journey right as we speak, which is a really big jump. And I said we were on our way, so we're all in like the diagnostic testing of like making sure we're good to go, and obviously we're you know, we're getting up there, um, so we want to like step on the gas, so I'm not like, you know, at our high school graduation or his, who know, um like an old granny.

[34:03] I am in my still in my thirties, even though I played Mother Abbess, so you know I was gonna say, I actually thought we were the same age and I discovered today that you're younger than me.

[34:13] Well, I mean by a smidge smidge.

[34:16] Um but Daniel just turned 40 this year and I'm still a super spring chick.

[34:21] Um, no, not really a spring chick.

[34:23] Um, so we're starting that journey right now and um it's exciting sometimes like we were going to our first appointment, I said, Daniel, we have lost our minds. Like in the butt and like, but we're doing it and we're both so excited about this journey and you know, but it's like, you know, we don't know about our business, like I'm thankful that Daniel's been able to not skip a beat beat in his work.

[34:49] Um and that's I've been super grateful for that.

[34:53] Um but you know, we we're down here in Florida with my family, we rented a place on the beach, which has been such a gift. We s we're going back to New Jersey. We don't know w exactly what we're gonna do with Emiline in kindergarten. I mean, there's so many unknowns, like for all of us. Like, like what the heck are we gonna do? Um, you know, we're contemplating where we're gonna raise our family.

[35:13] And you know, before the pandemic, I mean, we moved to uh Jersey to set roots, and Emiline would have school or have friends that she was gonna go to school with, and then you know, everybody's world's been turned upside down. So there's so many more unknowns, and here we are gonna bring another life into the world, hopefully. I'm like, it's insane. We're absolutely insane. But, you know, it's what we want to do, and we're just gonna, you know, hopefully bring another baby into our crazy world.

[35:42] I d I just feel like we're not complete for whatever reason, even though, but again, it's it's a new journey. Like, I've never done the IVF situation, and it's also I hope I'm trying to manage expectations, you know, where I'm not because who knows if we're gonna meet like I said, we're in the diagnostic part.

[36:02] Like if we meet with our doctor and he's like, you know what, this is going on, this is going on, and y'all aren't good candidates. You have one healthy baby, go hug on her and you know, I have to be ready for that. I also have to be ready like anybody, you know, getting all the way and we implant and it doesn't work.

[36:20] Like, and so that part I'm probably the most anxious about is just managing expectations and also being excited, but at the same time, I don't want to go down like depression road again. You know what I mean? It's just like I kind of it's a heavy road, even though there's so much excitement, there's so much unknown. Like, even when you get pregnant naturally, there's so until you hold that precious little thing in your home from the hospital and you get through those first couple of weeks.

[36:48] I mean, it is like, wow. I mean, it's truly a miracle, all of it. I mean, you know, that it all can even happen. You know, still I still sometimes look at Emiline and I'm like, that is so weird that I made you.

[37:01] Jessica Rush: I do that all the time with my kids. I looked at my husband, I'm like, these we made these people. They're like people now.

[37:07] Ashley Brown: It's so weird.

[37:08] I know. I'm like Daniel, if we didn't French, she would not be you know what I mean? Like it's so bizarre.

[37:14] It's crazy. I'm like it I know and I know it happens millions and trillions and billions times a day. Like I know I'm not the first mother on earth, but sometimes it feels that you're like hold the phone. Like I'm in charge of that.

[37:32] Jessica Rush: I think it's pretty amazing like a a silver lining of this time and I think all of us has kind of found this in certain ways. Like it's really refined what's important to us, right?

[37:44] Ashley Brown: We've been stripped of so much.

[37:46] Jessica Rush: And so it became so clear to you that you were like no we I want to have another baby. Like that is important to me right now.

[37:51] Ashley Brown: Like and also you're talking about going into all this unknown and trying to navigate we've also done that this year. Like everything has been unknown. Things have changed at the drop of a hat and we've adapted in ways that we didn't think we weren't prepared for and didn't think we were capable of.

[38:09] So it's almost like we've been kind of armed with more skill than we even know and maybe that's given you kind of the the guts to go move forward with this, you know, even though it is scary and there there could be extreme disappointment and grief attached to it.

[38:26] Ashley Brown: But hopefully joy as well you know so yes absolutely. And I and I think it's just like, I mean, this whole time it's like you look at who you have leaned on this year and who um it r like you said, it just has really like honed in on what's important and I think that's confusing too at times 'cause I'm like, is it am I feeling this way because like our business is gone? Like what will I feel when it starts ramping up and how how do we navigate that?

[38:57] Is it it like and then there's also the question of like there's so many of our friends that are like, I've been looking for an out, I'm out, I've been questioning leaving the business forever, and like that there's clarity in that. I'm like, get it. And I guess that's what I'm my biggest hope and prayer for is just clarity. You know, it just all the decision making is so 'cause it's big stuff.

[39:18] It's like, where do you live? Where do you want to raise your family? Do I want you know, do we want to continue the hustle of that this business requires? Do we wanna live in like the most expensive state in the world? You know, it's like, oh my gosh.

[39:32] Yeah. You know, it's like all these things that we do and like being down here and like I was born and raised here, all my sips are here, it's so so fun.

[39:40] And life is so simple here. You know, it is like I I mean, I haven't lived here since high school, and so much less like have my baby here and the whole thing.

[39:50] But everything is so simple.

[39:53] Ashley Brown: But then I'm like, will that be what I want forever now that I've gotten like a taste of like city and like New York City being right there and all the things, the positive things that, you know, that why we're all living there.

[40:06] Ashley Brown: You know, I mean it's that's yeah, so many amazing things that you can't get here.

[40:10] Cara Cooper: Totally.

[40:11] Ashley Brown: So it's just like what lifestyle Yeah, I had that feeling too, 'cause it's like I kept I always thought I wanted something to come out of the ether and just like hit me and say, You should do this instead and this year something that I have realized is there's nothing else I want to do instead. And that was so refreshing to just think, Oh, I don't have to wonder anymore. I can't wait to be back to work. I can't wait to be back in New York City, and I just am ready. Like, here we go. I'm still in it, I'm a lifer, it's what we do. I wanna I want to shift a little bit um to some of the the fun parts of what we do, which is you because there are fun parts. I you are a Disney darling, yes.

[40:51] Cara Cooper: So people who are just tuning in, I can't imagine that you well, first off, you heard our intro, but Ashley, you know, she was Mary Poppins, Belle. The first job out of college was on the record, which was a Disney show as well.

[41:03] Ashley Brown: And I saw you in on the record.

[41:05] Cara Cooper: I saw the tour.

[41:06] Ashley Brown: I did.

[41:07] Cara Cooper: Oh my gosh.

[41:07] Ashley Brown: I did 40s. We were on 42nd Street, and I think we got free tickets to see you, but I saw you and on the record.

[41:14] Cara Cooper: Oh well.

[41:15] Ashley Brown: Just that was just a few years ago.

[41:17] Cara Cooper: Such a baby, just a just a couple.

[41:21] Ashley Brown: But you actually have made a career of concert work in the last several years, particularly since Emma's been born. I think that has been the bread and butter mostly, right?

[41:32] Cara Cooper: And I I would I mean, I would love to do concert work. There's nothing that sounds better than going off and singing for a few days, wearing a fabulous gown, getting paid money, and then you go home and have some time off instead of the eight weekish eight shows a week grind. So, how has that been for motherhood? I mean, I can imagine it's easier in a lot of ways than doing the eight shows a week, but also are you missing out on this other part?

[41:55] Ashley Brown: Absolutely. I mean, the funny thing with the whole concert situation is, you know, I I kind of started doing it, you know, like you said, I was so fortunate to play these iconic people. And I remember when I was doing Poppins, they asked me to do Feinsteins, and I remember being probably the most nervous I'd ever been. And I realized then that I no longer knew how to just be me on stage. I didn't know how to talk like me. I didn't know how to walk like me. I didn't know how to sing like not that I wasn't singing or to but you know, without being held handed a script or handed an an outline of, you know, who this character is supposed to be and I it scared me because I was like, Oh my gosh, because I graduated college being like this is what Ashley does.

And then I after li I mean I did eight shows a week for like seven years, eight years without stopping. Um, which was I mean, I'm not complaining, hello, gross. If I were I mean it was amazing. But it's also hard. Yeah, it's so hard. But I'm like, I didn't want to be like, I had so much work. Um I didn't want to sound like that 'cause that's n I was so grateful for it. But that scared me. And so when I ended up leaving Poppins, which was a really hard decision because it the show wasn't closing, which is like that never happens or people just get to like leave and I was like, I'm an idiot. Um but I was like I just kind of um I did end up going back for a bit. Um I just wanted to go figure out who I was on stage as Ashley and because Feinstein scared me so badly, which it should have been so easy, um, and um it was a nightmare of I was so nervous, none of it was fun, I hated every second of it.

I was like, get the hook, get me out of here. I hate it. And I was like, This is not how it should be. Um and so then honestly I started concert work just as like a filler of like, oh, until I get my next show, I'll just do this here and there, whatever. And then I started really falling in love with it. And um when I started, you know, w putting together a solo show I had a conductor, um, with Indianapolis Symphony was like, I want to put together like a sh just your show, and I was like, Alright, I'm here for that. And so we did, because I'd known him forever. So he knew like that I was silly, and like he knew my personality and my voice. So we just did all kinds of genres, and I was able to just be me, and I was like, I loved it.

And then it kind of just started taking off, and I was like, but then I was being booked, and I was like, wait, how do I make this my business? And so what I throughout the years, just with different symphony, what I started to do is collect my own charts. So now I have a library over 50 orchestrations, and I have put together my own packages, you know, I have a Christmas, I have an Irving Berlin, I have a Disney, I have an Ashley Browns Broadway, I have you name it, and I say, Hey, 60 orchestras, what works in your season? And then I'm I have a librarian, and so I'm the one, and then they pay me for my they pay me for all the things. So I was like, oh my, I was able to kind of create my own business within that, and I really found myself as a performer um through that, and so I started just really loving it.

It became less of a filler and more of a career randomly. Um, and so it just kind of morphed into that, and you know, I I and also especially when I had Emma Line, it was a lot of travel. So I am gone. I was gone like two weekends a month at least. So there's that that's a little rough, but at the same time, Monday to Thursday, I was just mom, and so there was a total plus. But it's so crazy. I know you guys deal with this too, where it's like, don't you feel like just absolutely two different people? Like, you know, it's like you're on stage and you're like, you're like signing the stage door, and then you go home and you're like, now I'm wiping somebody's hiny. Yeah, you know, it's like it's a my it blows all the minds.

Um so I mean, but of course there were times um where I felt very s not stuck, because like that sounds so negative, but it's I guess there were times where I was getting so into the concert world where there were times I was missing auditions. I felt like I was my the Broadway career, which was like always been my dream, was kind of went on the back burner because of what I was doing was lucrative and but it was also efficient with my time and I could be a mom. So there's something very alluring to like about it, you know, obviously. Um, but I also missed like being in a cast, you know, whereas like with the concert, if I I mean most of the time I knew the conductor and we could have a kiki, but most of the time I was just me by myself, and which was fun once I became a mom.

I was like, ooh, spate, just laying here. All to do is sing 25 songs. That sounds like a vacation. Um but you know, but I missed that the group, the camaraderie and the family that you have when you're in a cast, you know, and being able to tell a story and do all that kind of stuff.

[46:54] Cara Cooper: Yes, but now the pandemic, you have gotten to sing.

[46:59] Ashley Brown: I know that's gotten to sing with your besties.

[47:02] Cara Cooper: I know plural. It's like Ashley and I, so Ashley and I met because my bestie, Michael James Scott is also one of her closest buds, and he was the genie in Aladdin, so now they do these Disney concerts. Y'all, her, Michael, and Josh Strickland, who is my bestie? What does Emma call him? Uncle Funny or Uncle Uncle Silly.

[47:20] Ashley Brown: Uncle Silly.

[47:22] Cara Cooper: Oh my gosh. It's so fitting. How has it been though getting to do these concerts? You know, in the shutdown, you guys did them outdoors, socially distance, all the things y'all tested.

[47:33] Ashley Brown: Got tested, did all the things. Um it has been such a gift, and it does not I mean, it does not go to the side how lucky we are to been able to do these outdoor socially distanced situations and um to the theaters that have been able to provide, have the budget to provide these outdoor spaces that are safe. I mean, kudos, because not everybody can afford to do it because it's quite the undertaking, I can't even imagine. Not to mention like all the responsibility they have. If they're like, so 60 people just got sick of your concert, like that's a lot to take on.

[48:07] Cara Cooper: Yeah.

[48:08] Ashley Brown: But so but you know, when I um because I did one with Michael in December in Orlando, and then we did the Disney one um last month, and then we were just in Boston last weekend. It was my first time flying since the pandemic, and I was like, this is so odd. Um, and I'm like, if I hear if like I told Jessica, I was like, if I hear one more mucus slap, I mean I'm gonna have an anxiety attack. Because like everything you hear, you're like you know, you're like, did you get tested? Did you um but cause I was a germ freak before all this? I was like Miss Clarok's wife and everybody judged me. But I'm like, less than who doesn't have a head cold for their concert, me. Um because I wiped it all down.

Y'all judged me. Um so but so anyways, but doing the concerts and everything, there was something so oh, the feelings were just all over the place because you know, in a way for us, we've been doing it so long, it's like riding a bike, and you know, sound check, it's like, oh, we do this, and we rehearse, and then this is where I go, and oh, I need more piano, I need more of this. But then as I was doing then, like sound checking, I'm like, this isn't normal right now. Like so, I kept like going back and forth from like being in your zone and this is what you do, to like wait, Ashley, like take a snapshot, like and like take this in. This is not happening right now. Like, this is not normal.

So it was a very like weird feeling of like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm singing live. And then I have to say for the Disney concert, just because we're keeping it surreal, all of us were so anxious. Cause I'm like, we're singing our hineys off, and like we're just singing so many songs, and I'm like, do we have the stamina? Like, can we belt for two hours and do two shows with like in Orlando with a Disney thing? We did two shows in one day, so it's four hours of like throaty throat straight tone business.

[50:00] Cara Cooper: Yeah, no, y'all were singing down.

[50:02] Ashley Brown: I mean, it's a lot like you had done the Festival of the Arts at Epcot for years before. I mean, like you said, you're Disney darling and you love the Disney and all the things, and and y'all, when you do those songs, these concerts, you are you're belting.

[50:17] Cara Cooper: Yeah, it's like every 11 o'clock streamer.

[50:20] Ashley Brown: Exactly, exactly. But you you've also gone on the Disney Cruise line. We're gonna get Disney centric here for a second, because you've gone on Disney Cruise Line and you took Emiline, right? Which that's its own thing, because it's a fun time. You can put your kid in the kids' club, you know.

[50:37] Ashley Brown: Thank goodness she liked it. Cause I'm like, let me tell you something. If you don't like it, you're gonna learn to like it. Because this is where you live in girl.

[50:45] Cara Cooper: Exactly.

[50:46] Ashley Brown: But yeah, so they the Disney Vacation Club um has hired the Disney on Broadway performers to come and do what their um special, like the evening show of their last night of the cruise as like a special presentation. Um and so that's been so so fun to be a part of that. And you know, and like you get to sail with the your buddies, and like I got to bring Emma line one time. But before that, you know, I had nieces and nephews that came with me. I was like, of course, once my kid gets old enough to enjoy this pandemic. I'm like, that doesn't I don't like it.

[51:18] Cara Cooper: Oh honey. She is all about many mouse.

[51:21] Ashley Brown: And I did not push that. It is a thing.

[51:24] Cara Cooper: It is a thing.

[51:26] Ashley Brown: Well, Disney all day. Um Ashley, we could sit here and chat with you. I mean, you know, we kiki forever. Um, but we have to go because it's we've talked and talked and talked for like an hour.

[51:40] Ashley Brown: Well, I love you girls, and thank you for this platform to be able to talk so real about being a mom and a performer and all that we do. I know it inspires me and so many others to be able to just talk so open about all this and nobody feel alone. So thank you guys for providing this for so many people.

[51:40] Cara Cooper: Thank you.

[51:57] Ashley Brown: Well, yeah, we're happy, we're happy to do it. We love to hear from people and and to know that it helps them. And thank you for sharing your story and journey and and journey with us. And I'm just happy I got to sit in Kiki with you for an hour or so. It was so fun. And that Mother Abyss Key story is gonna stay with me for a very long time. So I'm like, y'all, what is gonna happen if I can't get this gate open?

[52:21] Ashley Brown: Trust me, Al.

[52:28] Cara Cooper: Well, I mean, apparently I climbed the mountain and came back.

[52:34] Ashley Brown: Oh my god.

[52:35] Cara Cooper: Have a good one.

[52:36] Ashley Brown: I will buy you guys.

[52:47] Jessica Rush: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Mama's Talkin' Loud. Special shout outs to Rachel Spencer Hewitt for our fabulous graphic, Kristen Anderson Lopez, Bobby Lopez, and Justin Ward Weber for our awesome theme song. Our producers Dori Berinstein, Alan Seales, and of course the Broadway Podcast Network for bringing us to you.