This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Jessica Rush: Hi everyone, thanks so much for tuning in to this episode of Mamas Talkin' Loud.

[0:04] Cara Cooper: I'm Jessica Rush.

[0:05] Cara Cooper: And I'm Cara Cooper.

[0:07] Jessica Rush: You might have noticed that we are a day late with our episode release, but we needed the time to make sure that this was the conversation you heard this week.

[0:15] Jessica Rush: Breaking her three-year silence over her discrimination and eventual termination from her starring role in Romy and Michele: The Musical, today's guest joins us following her bravely transparent social media post that’s gone viral.

[0:28] Jessica Rush: She shares, in her own words, what it felt like to be fired for being pregnant, opening up a conversation that is desperately needed within our business.

[0:37] Jessica Rush: Here's our conversation with Cortney Wolfson.

[0:40] ♪ Musical number: "Mama's Talkin' Loud" — performed by Unknown artist ♪

[0:55] Jessica Rush: Cortney, hello.

[1:08] Cortney Wolfson: Welcome, we are here.

[1:11] Cortney Wolfson: Thank you, thank you.

[1:12] Cortney Wolfson: I'm so excited to see other human faces.

[1:16] Cara Cooper: True, we still feel that way these days, right?

[1:18] Cortney Wolfson: I do feel that way.

[1:20] Cortney Wolfson: Oh, and just like the chaos of motherhood and life and balancing all the facts.

[1:25] Cortney Wolfson: Madness.

[1:25] Cortney Wolfson: So yeah, it's nice.

[1:26] Cortney Wolfson: It's nice to connect to human women.

[1:29] Cara Cooper: Yes, for sure, for sure.

[1:31] Cara Cooper: Cortney, we always start off asking our guests about their child or their children.

[1:36] Cara Cooper: So will you please tell us about Ziggy?

[1:39] Cortney Wolfson: Oh my gosh, what can I say about Ziggy? He is well, I'll tell you this. When I was pregnant, I thought I was gonna name him Otis, which is crazy now because he's a Ziggy through and through. Like he is a zigzagging wild maniac in the best way. And when I was like, I don't know, seven months pregnant, Curtis, my husband, and I were like, let's try out this other name. Let's just like give it a try. And he was like flip-flopping in my belly. And then he came out that way. Like from the moment he was born. He was just like wild. He's amazing. He's so silly. He's singing. He's trying to riff. Oh. But he sounds like me trying to riff. So I'm not sure if he's gonna win an award for it. But he's so fun. He's the best thing ever. He's literally the most wonderful thing in the world.

[2:31] Cara Cooper: How old is he now?

[2:32] Cortney Wolfson: He's two and a half.

[2:35] Cara Cooper: You're in it.

[2:36] Cortney Wolfson: But like two and a half boy energy. You know, and he was in daycare for three days, and then the world shut down.

[2:44] Cara Cooper: Oh, yes.

[2:44] Cortney Wolfson: So we threw his first birthday party, which we uh refer to as the super spreader event of the year. His birthday, his February 27th. And then the city shut down like two and a half weeks later. So we had all of our friends over. We were sharing drinks and cake in our apartment. And throwing a dinosaur party. My girlfriend just got off the plane from Italy.

[3:08] Cara Cooper: Oh.

[3:09] Cortney Wolfson: Oh that is.

[3:14] Cara Cooper: Odds are that was a good super spreader.

[3:15] Cortney Wolfson: Yeah, yeah.

[3:16] Cortney Wolfson: The odds are. So half of Broadway, the Cast of Moulin Rouge can thank me.

[3:21] Cara Cooper: Yeah.

[3:21] Cortney Wolfson: Um so we had him in daycare and then we pulled him out three days in. And he's been home, which is so wild, but has been incredible. It's been, I get to see him change every single day. Which is just, you know, it's you guys know it's magical.

[3:40] Cara Cooper: Yeah.

[3:40] Cortney Wolfson: It's every day is new and fresh and fun, and what's he gonna do next? And I love it. I love it so much.

[3:47] Cara Cooper: How do you manage that though with shooting photography?

[3:50] Cortney Wolfson: Uh and Curtis's. I don't know. Do you have any suggestions?

[3:54] Cara Cooper: I don't.

[3:54] Cara Cooper: I have none.

[3:55] Cortney Wolfson: Do you know pick good babysitters?

[3:57] Cara Cooper: Um always looking for them.

[3:58] Cortney Wolfson: Always. Oh my I just I actually posted about it the other day on the baby mamas. And you know, any post anyone post has like 900 comments. And I posted, does anybody have any babysitter recommendations in L.A.C? And they had like three likes.

[4:14] Cara Cooper: Well we'll go on and bump it.

[4:15] Cara Cooper: I'll be like, bump, anybody, but I was like, if you ask about health insurance, we got you. Babysitters, we're all out.

[4:22] Cortney Wolfson: Yeah, literally. Um, but we actually relocated down to Florida hilariously during the pandemic. My parents were down there, and we moved three miles from my parents, and we thought, will we ever return? Who knows? Will there be a New York City? And then so we had a lot of help from mom. That's our spend the lifesaver. And we traveled back and forth a little bit, and then we actually just resettled in our old building, and now we're fully back, actually in a different unit, but in our old building. And so we're going back and forth a little bit because Curtis still is choreographing a show in Florida, so you know, we're figuring it out, and then we're gonna put him in proper daycare, we think, come February, assuming that all goes as planned.

[5:03] Cara Cooper: That is a game changer.

[5:04] Cortney Wolfson: Just you wait. When that happens, your world is just gonna be it's a game changer.

[5:09] Cortney Wolfson: I tasted it, it was like a droplet.

[5:12] Cara Cooper: Yeah.

[5:14] Cortney Wolfson: And then it was quickly taken from me, but I can't complain too much because we've been healthy and safe, and we still have a business, which is in and of itself is a literal miracle that you know, still people still have hopes and dreams for the business and want headshots. So we are very blessed and just every day going, thank you. We're still here.

[5:35] Cara Cooper: Um, so for our listeners who might not know, you recently posted on social media about discrimination that you experienced over being pregnant on a show that you had been working on for a very, very long time.

[5:51] Cara Cooper: Um, and could you just tell us in your own words? Obviously, people have read the post, but from a storytelling perspective, can you kind of walk us through it? How long you'd been with the project and how everything went down?

[6:05] Cortney Wolfson: Yeah. Uh so I was cast as Romy in Romy and Michele: The Musical in 2017, early 2017 for the out of town trial with hopes to come to Broadway at some point afterward. And at that time, Curtis and I were married, no strong plans of babies yet. I was just excited to be working and be newly married. Went out of town, did the show, and talked pretty openly about the idea of Curtis and I potentially starting a family. There are a lot of people on the creative team who have children who are parents. And as soon as we closed, came back, and it was just we came back to New York, and the conversations were, you know, what's next? Is there gonna be another incarnation of presentation, a reading, a workshop to work on the script, to work on the score, and then potentially come in.

So throughout those conversations, Curtis and I held off plans. I had a couple other jobs in between. And then Curtis and I were in Europe just dreaming about babies, just drinking wine and feeling fancy, feeling European, and just decided that you know it was time to start our journey. And I knew that I was kind of in between productions of Romy and Michele coming in potentially. So I reached out to my director just to touch base on timeline and tell her we were thinking about it and would there be a good time and could that you know fit into the schedule? And that my priority as a non-pregnant person was the show. That was my first baby. And I wanted to somehow make it work. And I got a loving, wonderful email back with tons of support.

Absolutely. I've just spoken with our producer. Here are the plans, X, Y, and Z readings, workshops, um, and then potentially on Broadway, and you can be pregnant for the workshop. Smiley face emoji. So we TMI, we threw out the condoms. We're in Europe. I mean, I literally, I'm an open book. That’s I remember the moment we were in London and we're like, we're gonna have a baby. Um of course that's not how it works. It takes time and planning to figure out when and how to make that happen. So it took us a minute to get pregnant. Not for lack of trying. And I was in and out of town and doing jobs and blah blah blah. So time went on. I ended up eventually getting pregnant. I had a chemical pregnancy, which is a very, very early miscarriage.

I didn't even know I was pregnant until after it had happened. And then the next month we got pregnant. So I sat on it for a little bit. I wanted to wait until first trimester was up to tell anybody. And at that time, right before my 12 weeks, I reached out to my director and my producer via email and told them the news. They were incredibly supportive, congratulatory. I got an email saying something along the lines of I've produced so many shows in the 90s with actors who were having children, and now those children are having children, and you're part of this family and this network of people whom I love and welcome to the club. Just heartwarming, heartwarming. Um updated me on timeline because now, of course, you know, everything had shifted.

We at this point we had not still done a reading or another workshop in New York, but told me the updated plans and said, um, I'm sure we can figure it out. You'll let me know, and I'm sure we can figure it out. So I felt a breath of fresh air. I was actually in a show at the time. It was a like a short-term thing in Vegas doing an industrial for this big company, a really wacky job, and I was playing a pregnant woman in it. And somebody who I ended up wearing a baby belly bump over my belly bump. Kind of a wonderful experience, and they were like, Oh wow, you're so method going to get pregnant. You know, it was like a big old yeah, yeah. We were really but I'm bumping out in Vegas. So I was I was thrilled, and I came home, and that was the last job before I started really showing.

And then I got a text message from our director asking to chat about the show, and I was super duper excited. I was six months pregnant, I was feeling awesome. I was, you know, riding the high of like finally feeling great and sleeping super well. And the phone call happened the next day. It just took a sharp left turn. I had I was completely shocked to find out that I was being replaced. She told me on the phone I was being replaced because the projected workshop dates were going to fall near my due date. And I had been incredibly explicit about my due date and open about all of it because I felt I honestly felt a huge hug when I expressed that I was pregnant and all of our plans. So I was shocked.

Still shocked. Three years later, I'm still shocked. Um and I got on the phone with my agent the next day, and we talked it out. And basically, honestly, at first I was I was a I was super sad and confused. I'm not even sure all the emotions that were layered in, but then it then just turned into an email conversation for quite literally months, where I was told that it wasn't about my necessarily my ability to perform in the 29-hour reading. It was they couldn't sell the show, essentially with me looking like a pregnant person. Um and I gave all of the reasons at the time, like, but I can do it, and what about a stand-in? And only four to five percent of women give birth on their due date. So I laid out all the statistics.

Um, and then the conversation continued for quite a while. And then that reading, I was told by the producer via my agents that they made an offer to another actor who had been nominated for a Tony recently, and she's an acquaintance of mine, I know her. I and I already heard the story through the grapevine before they'd contacted me, which I expressed to them on the phone. They had said to me, you know, we're calling you before we call anybody else. You're not you're pregnant and you can't do it. And I said, I actually know you already made the offer to somebody else. There are no secrets. Heard about that one yesterday, but thank you for letting me hear through a text from a friend. Um and so I I called them out on that a little bit.

And so that that came to light, and then it was expressed that yes, we had made an offer to somebody else, and then um the reading never happened. So I was happy that it didn't happen because I thought, oh well, I don't have a baby in my belly anymore, so I'm gonna do it. Because it was because I was pregnant that I couldn't do it, and now I'm not pregnant, I have this child. And how good to see me do it. And then uh a month later, there was another phone conversation that said, Well, now you're it's not because you're not pregnant, it's um now we need a star to sell the show. We need we need a name, we need a name. So the conversation just kept happening over and over again, and I was even more confused, obviously, at that point, because I thought specifically it was because of my quote unquote condition that was keeping me out of it.

Um, and then there was radio silence for about a year, and then uh Ziggy turned 10 months, and I received an email uh CC'd or BCC'd with some of the other company who had done the show out of town in Seattle, inviting us all for a non-UN non-union jurisdiction just table read in LA.

[13:47] Cortney Wolfson: And they were flying us out, and I did it. I went out and did it, and it was, you know, just like a just for friends, basically. They had invited some people. I expected to get out there and have a conversation about what had happened, and it was as if it never happened, and um, there was no talk ever about the year that had gone by with me agonizing and crying and waiting for the phone calls. There was no talk about them having offered it to this other actor. Um, so I did the table read, and then I got an offer for a 29-hour reading in New York, and it got shut down because of COVID. It was supposed to be the week that the city was shut down. Um, that's where I mean, that's essentially where my journey ended with the show.

There was chatter, you know, throughout the pandemic of it coming back, and then once it did, they had not recast it with a more diverse cast, having at this point no direct relation to the fact that I was pregnant or anything that happened, but um, I didn't really know that I was no longer involved until the night before rehearsals for this most recent workshop started. I got a phone call from the director of voicemail telling me the show had been cast. So my journey was over. And that night I didn't sleep, and I realized that I wasn't necessarily upset about not being part of the show anymore. I'd already kind of made my peace with that. I was upset that I had held this secret for three years and that now the show is over, and there was a new narrative about what had happened to me. And I was so regretful that I hadn't spoken up in 2018 when it happened to me. So I decided to talk about it now.

[15:35] Cara Cooper: Girl. First off, I'm so sorry that that happened to you. That is no, you know, I know apologies. It's just I’m holding space for you in that because it is awful and not okay.

[15:53] Cortney Wolfson: Thank you. Well, and especially the fact that you were so transparent from the start, and they did not offer you the same courtesy. Like truly, like you put it out on the table, you're like this is what I'm planning on doing, does this work for you? And they said yes, and then to completely renege on that offer and then to not even give any attention to the fact that it happened when you went out to LA to do that reading, like it never ever happened.

[16:20] Cortney Wolfson: Yeah, I mean, I really, looking back on it now, that reading, because now there's been a producer statement released saying that, well, she did the reading in 2020. I did, and every day I walked into work, I was humiliated. I felt like I couldn't talk about my child. I was embarrassed. None of the cast knew what had happened, but there had been chatter, so I was trying to, you know, dodge bullets and not have a full mental breakdown while I was there. I was coming home every night to my kiddo and pumping my ginormous breasts because it was a six-hour workday with a 20-minute lunch, so I wasn't pumping. I'm trying to hide the fact that I need to pump. I have an hour commute home to the hills because I was staying with my in-laws.

It was just, you know, the story is like a word vomit because I could go on and on and on about how that first conversation of you can't do it because you're pregnant, how it affected the next three years of my life. And I held it in. Even thinking about it now, I've been, you know, the weepiest I've ever been in the last week because I'm fully realizing like the trauma that happened then and how that one first conversation and then, you know, the few conversations that transpired afterwards, how they changed the way that I acted in my career, in my audition experience after that, in my experience as a mother, my experience of what to post on social media and not, you know, all the intricacies of being a mom in this business and how it affected me.

[17:59] Cortney Wolfson: And um, I did a really good job, I think, of just kind of pushing it away. I didn't, I don't want to be a squeaky wheel. You're not gonna be a squeaky wheel. Maybe I'll get to play my star turn role. And um, yeah, just kind of, it kind of pooped on the whole experience for me for lack of a better phrase.

[18:19] Cara Cooper: Yeah. Well, I mean, and we all, you know, you've mentioned about this was like the career-changing role, right? In your eyes, and we all work so hard and we dream of having that role that does change everything, that makes it so it's easier to get in the door, that makes it so that TV might start to give you more attention, that may all the things. And here you were also being the lead of a company, you would assume carries a certain amount of respect from the creative team. They recognize they're trusting you with this project and with the show. I mean, clearly they're texting you, so you have a relationship with them. And for you to go to them and say, this is the situation, and they say, great, that's all okay, and then to not support you in that way.

[19:08] Cara Cooper: And then I'm just thinking about you having to go to this reading with your big mom boobies, not able, not able to share what should be a joyous time that you've created a person who you've given birth, and you can't even ask to have time to pump because you're so afraid that if you remind them that you have Ziggy, I feel like, you know, that that's just gonna make everything worse, and they're gonna remember. Oh, wait, that's right, she's a mom. Whether it's because then, you know, people think moms don't have time to do things, or moms aren't sexy anymore, or moms, you know, the list goes on and on and on.

[19:50] Cortney Wolfson: I remember getting ready, I mean, because from the moment that they emailed us about this LA table read until we showed up, it was a very short turnaround time. And Curtis and I were out of town shooting at a university when I got the email, and I was just like full stop. I mean, in that moment, they want me back. What's this gonna be like? And then we change all our plans. We flew my mom in, you gotta watch the baby, he's coming with us. It was just like a whole, and for probably for nothing. Like you probably got a hundred dollars. Do you know what I mean? Like it's not.

[20:19] Cortney Wolfson: I'm yeah, I think, yeah, I think I did. It may have been 250, it may have been 250, it may be. Meanwhile, you're rearranging your life to do this because after having this moment where there was so much uncertainty, which is awful to live in that space anyway. I mean, I know so many of you know, we've done that with the pandemic last year. It's like living in the unknown and what's gonna happen and what's gonna come. And for you, them to reach out, I'm sure that felt amazing. I'm sure that did feel like, oh my god.

[20:47] Cortney Wolfson: Absolutely. I felt vindicated. And the first thing I did was like stop eating. I mean, truly. I was like, I cannot look pregnant when I get, I cannot look like I haven't. I mean, he was 10 months, but listen, I, you know, what body's change? What was I doing? I was I was shooting headshots, I wasn't, you know, right. I was like, I better make sure I look good. I don't look like there's any show, like tape these boobies down and put on your high-waisted jeans and look good. And I remember having a moment about that with my husband, like, oh my god, do I look like I did? I hope, you know. I walk in. I remember I remember that one moment of walking in the room and how welcomed I felt, and they were so welcoming, which is, it just adds to like how crazy I felt.

They're like, we love you, you're back, and all I can see are these emails that, and you know, I don't know who it's like calling your pregnancy a condition, calling it a condition, telling me like, and the hilarious thing now too is I still have right of first refusal. Ha wait, this is really good. When my agents when they fired me for being pregnant, and my agent reached out to them and said, what about her right of first refusal? The producer who called my pregnancy a condition said, what's that? I didn't know what it was.

[22:18] Cara Cooper: Wait, wait, wait. For our listeners who might not know what right of first refusal is.

[22:24] Cortney Wolfson: When you get cast in a show that's gonna be coming into Broadway, sometimes in your contract, it can be written that you have the right of first refusal, which means that you are offered the part before anybody else. And you are open to refuse it if you so choose. But it is your part to turn down. And I think there's a monitoring. If you if they don't give it to you, yes, because I, I that happened to me. Yeah, and I've had it before, it's brilliant. And then they get, then they pay you a month's salary, and you're like, all right, so you go have a cocktail, you cry for two days, and you move on with your life.

[23:00] Cara Cooper: Yeah. It's a good idea. And that's that's so interesting about this. Like there are so many ups and downs in our business. There, you know, there are the parts that got away. I'm sure we could all tell stories of like parts that we had, then they went to somebody else, or we were told we were gonna play something, and then we didn't. And you know, those are things that we have to work through on our own and be like, oh, this really sucks, and find a way to move forward. But you can move forward. But you were told you couldn't have a part because of part of who you are, that you're a mother now, that you have a child. And that, how do you make peace with that? How do you make peace with I literally was rejected because of who I am, not because of, oh, we're going a different direction or this or that. You know what I mean? Like our business is fickle, there's no way around it, right?

[23:46] Cortney Wolfson: Um, but I can imagine how hard that was to make peace, and then as you said, have it affect how you moved through the business, how you kept Ziggy a secret. Did anybody when you walked into that room in LA, did anybody ask how your baby was? Did anybody ask how you were?

[24:00] Cortney Wolfson: You know, yes, I had so there was a co-producer on the show, uh, who's male, who we never openly and directly spoke about what had happened, but I could feel the wink wink nudge nudge, I'm so glad you're back kind of energy. And he's been, I haven't heard from him, of course, since I posted him. Probably never will. Um, I felt there was like kind of kindness radiating from him throughout that. And I did I did feel that there was like his hands were maybe tied in this in the scenario. And uh he asked me about Ziggy, and in fact, there was a conversation where he said he wanted to meet him, and I was so elated and honestly shocked to hear anybody say that in the room, and he we were trying to navigate because we were staying so far from from downtown or wherever it was that we were doing the reading.

Getting Curtis to maybe bring Ziggy in. He wanted to meet him. And I was thinking that would be amazing. Like, here's this baby on the outside, and maybe they'll put a face to the name, and they'll feel like they'll have empathy for the situation, and they'll see this beautiful child, this fat little baby. And so we had this really drawn-out conversation about how it could happen. And I don't remember the like exact verbiage, the ins and outs of it, but it was essentially he wanted me to bring him the next day, which was the day of the presentation. We were doing two presentations, like have him come in, and like Curtis can walk him around and blah blah blah. And so I called my husband on our 20 minute break, and he was gonna bring him in the next day.

We had the whole plan, and on my commute home that same evening, I got an email from him. I actually looked it up yesterday because I was trying to remember what he'd said to me, and he'd said something like, I ran by this was his idea for me to bring my child in. Uh, I would never have offered that up. Uh, I had a conversation with the lead producer, and he thinks it might be a distraction. And he did say, the producer did say, you could bring him, like, don't bring him to whatever the other producer told you to bring him to. You could bring him earlier during a rehearsal or something, which I was shocked to hear him say that, honestly. And I’ll give credit where credit is due. He did say like, hey, I could bring him in during the rehearsal, but I was so embarrassed to receive an email telling me not to do something once again that I had been asked to do that I'm driving, and it pops up on my little car phone thing.

I was like, oh my, are you guys serious? Have these conversations alone and then proofread them and then get back to me. Don't tell me to bring him in and then tell me to not bring him in. And I was so embarrassed by that. And then I felt silly for even considering bringing my child around those people. And I thought, I don't want him here. I don't want him to meet you, actually. I'm gonna keep him safe from this room because this room isn't making me feel good about myself. It doesn't make me feel good about being a mommy. And Ziggy does. So obviously, I never brought him in. They've never met my child. Thank goodness. I'm glad that they have it at this point. But yeah, I was it was asked about at least. There was a conversation, there was acknowledgement that he had been born. He exists by one person.

[27:19] Cara Cooper: We're gonna take a quick break.

[27:28] Jessica Rush: I mean, the trauma of this whole thing, Cortney, is just that's what I keep coming back to. Like there's been a lot of talk, you know, um, as we've returned to Broadway, uh there's been a lot of work done in the rooms with regard to diversity, equity, and inclusion. And people have spoken about how coming back into the rehearsal spaces they were shaking or things on specific shows, you know, and they were like, wait, am I cold? And then they realize, oh no, I'm my body, I it's trauma. It's remembering the trauma that I experienced in this space with these people specifically, or things like that. Um, and it often it all for the most part is having to do with race. And obviously that's a huge issue, then and and inclusion is something we all need to work towards and equity and equality, but also mothers working mothers in this business need to be included in that conversation as well because there's plenty of dads, we know it, and the dads, they never give them two thoughts.

I actually have two dads in my show that are gonna take paternity leave. One is on paternity leave right now because his baby was just born, and the other one is taking it in November, um, which is a big deal. I've never known a dad to take it. I cannot name anyone other than the guy who I know in your show. I can't name another one. And it's the same guy. That's not even three, that's still two. A couple people at my husband's show have taken paternity leave because it's once it became state law that they have to offer it. Yeah, which was like 14 seconds ago, right? Right. Yes, exactly. It's pretty much like right after the pandemic, and yeah, don't worry, we're just gonna shut you home in your house with your kids for forever, and it's fine. So nobody will want to take paternity leave.

[29:18] Cortney Wolfson: Exactly. No, but I think, you know, this is the conversation that needs to happen. How many times have we um uh, you know, Lauren Lataro talked to us about how she hid the fact that she was pregnant all during oh all during what you have something to say? I worked with her when she was literally eight months pregnant, and it was magical. It was one of the reasons that Curtis and I were trying then. And I I watched her that hits me deep because I watched her be super duper pregnant and direct in her directorial debut, and I was in the show, it was all women, and even the orchestra, and it was a really empowering experience. And I got pregnant shortly after that. That was like this last show I think I did as a not pregnant person.

Yes, that's correct. I found out I was pregnant like right after that. And she, you know, she was paving the way for strong women in this business who held positions of power or relievers and were super pregnant. But she also hid it though until she was like seven months pregnant or something, until she couldn't hide it. Like basically I walked into rehearsal the first day and I went, You're pregnant. She behind the table, my audition, her little baby belly, and she well, because I mean her body, she can do whatever she wants. She can hide she's pregnant until the baby's out. I was like, You're amazing, but she's a queen, so she under the table, you couldn't tell she was pregnant when I was auditioning.

She was like, Yeah, I'm super pregnant. But like that's and she was a person in a position of power, still feeling like she had to hide. She had to hide because she is a female in this business. One of the reasons that I wanted to be, because she and I had had a conversation about that during rehearsal, and I want that's why I was transparent. Because I I saw myself potentially being in literally in her exact same position. I mean, had just closed that show and then we got pregnant. And the hilarious thing is, had they told me, had the show said, We're coming to Broadway, baby, get ready, don't do it. Or I mean, and I know that of course that's a hard position to put a creative team in. I understand that by saying, like, does this timeline lead up?

But had there been a really open conversation about it, and if they had said that's gonna be tough with the timeline, I would have said, no problemo, I'll wait. Right. I would have waited. I probably, if they told me, I mean, I would have waited forever, is the sad part. And I'm glad I didn't. I think that, you know, the silver lining is I'm glad that we just went ahead no matter what happened. Thank God. I'd rather have Ziggy than anything in the world. That's another lesson. Like, do you know what I mean? Like that's another topic about what we do, which is that you were like, I'll just wait forever. I would have waited literally forever. And to this day, I mean, if if Curtis and I didn't have our other business, my Cortney Holbrook business, which is our photography business, if I didn't have stability there, I know.

I mean, I know myself. I still wouldn't have said anything. I would be sitting here today, just not being a part of it and and feeling so scared to never work again that I never would have told the story. It it just would have been our secret.

[32:30] Jessica Rush: It's this thing keeps popping in my head, and I'm not like, this is not like hating on men or anything like that. But, you know, you walk into a reading, a presentation, there's a lot of it you have to imagine, right? Like you have to imagine the sets and you have to imagine like big costumes and production numbers and blah, blah, blah. I find it hard to believe that they couldn't imagine that the person playing Romy would not be pregnant when the when the actual production happened. And and I think, and maybe I'm maybe I'm speaking out of turn here, and I and I'm not like smash the patriarchy, yes, but I don't I like I think as a woman, I would be very it would be very easy for me to pretend that you weren't pregnant while I was looking at you.

And I wonder if it's a male gaze that's like, how could anybody look at that person and think, oh, here's this sexy girl who's gonna walk around in her mini dress and you know embody this character. Whereas I of course I could see that in you because I can see that in me. I could see that in me when I was pregnant, you know, and I I don't know, I just feel like it's I don't know. I I'm getting fired up about it.

[33:46] Cortney Wolfson: Well, the show, I mean, hilariously, the show too, is so um it's so heightened in general. I mean, during a 29 nine hour reading, there has to be a descriptive of Michelle drives a jaguar and creates a post-its dance scene where the post its have legs and a scorpion does a backflip. Right. Like Cortney weighs 30 pounds less. Right. Like they literally could have written it into the stage directions. I I said that. I mean, that was in the phone conversation. Hey, wouldn't it be kind of hilarious if we all were in on the joke? I mean, the show is so hilarious. We all it's it's it is Cam. Right. Like, let's embrace and the whole tagline of the show. I mean, it's literally about women. I mean, every press event I did for the show in Seattle and before and after was oh my gosh, it's just so refreshing to be in a show that's starring women.

It is directed by woman, it is created, written this the script and the film or written by a woman. One of the music writers is a woman telling a story about women supporting women. We're like, we're ladies. Yeah, we're fired for being pregnant though. So I was just it could have been part of the celebration of the show. I especially in the time that we're in. I mean, we the me too movement is just she's out there and we're marching and yeah. But there's still this stigma. This stigma is rampant in our business and and in so many industries. I mean, it's not to say that women, I mean, I know women who work in offices that are pregnant and then they stop getting all the projects, or they because people think they can't handle it, or or because they have to leave right at 5 30 to go be mom that they can't, you know, they can't do their job. I mean, it's it's wild.

[35:44] Cortney Wolfson: I remember when I I left Jersey Boys and I had a plan and I was like, I'm gonna do a couple regional jobs and I want to get pregnant when I'm doing it so that then I can work. And I got pregnant and found out I was pregnant two days before I had to leave to go do Gypsy as Chicago Shakespeare. And I I made a decision to not tell them. I didn't tell anyone. And I was there and like I had some bleeding startup, and my mother had to come and I had to go to the doctor, and everything ended up being okay. And ultimately I told the girl playing June because I thought if we're in tech or if I've had if something happens, I need someone to know that I'm pregnant. But I was so worried that if I told the theater, they would fire me because they would think like, what's she gonna look like when we get to the end of the run in 16 weeks?

Will she look like a pregnant Louise? Um, and so I didn't, and then and I kept it a secret. And at the closing party at the end of it all, I said I made a speech, and I just said, and you know, I'm 16 weeks pregnant, and I like relaxed and let it out. And they're like, What? You know, and and and they were all excited, which was great, but I I chose to not share that. I kept it this is a very exciting time. I kept it in, and so many of us do that because we don't want to be labeled the you know the mom of the group or unsexy, because you know what? That did happen to me after the fact with certain director, which I won't name, but we can all think about it. But you know, once you get to that point, then it's like, oh, she's not sexy anymore.

Oh she has to go in this other box over here because moms aren't sexy. But you know, it's fine. Now, yeah, now I get auditions for like mother of a 16-year-old child. Right. I'm like, okay. Honestly, I'll take it. I mean, sure. I I yes, I get it.

[37:45] Jessica Rush: How has it been? I mean, I I looked at your Instagram, um, and I I couldn't help but notice that like most of your posts are like, you know, a few hundred likes or whatever. This post is over three thousand now at this point. So, how has it been? Like, what has been the reaction? I know you talked to People Magazine. I know Buzzfeed picked up the story. I mean, what's happening right now? I I appreciate you making time for us because I feel like you're working on the world. I'm I'm your biggest fan. I mean, I've been so excited about you guys doing the podcast and and the the baby mamas and everything. I mean, just having you know support in general. So please, thank you. Thank you for having me.

Thanks for giving, you know, a platform to this story. When I posted it, I my friend who proofread it for me was like, you know, just remember, nobody must may read this. Like, that's correct. And that's fine. Because at least I've told someone because my phone was blowing up at the press release that had gone out about the show, and people are asking me what happened. And I'm like, how do I stay supportive of the show and my and my friends who are still in it? Because I want, listen, I want everybody to go on and win Tonies. I want all the Tonies for all the friends. I'm not, you know, this is just my story. It's not about it.

[39:01] Cortney Wolfson: Yeah, that's what I do want to say. Like, I don't detect any bitterness, to be honest, Cortney. Like, I don't, I don't detect like it doesn't feel like it's like a you're coming back for a revenge. You know what I mean? It doesn't feel like any of that. It just feels like free. I feel I'm so relieved. I am so relieved that it is not that I am not waiting for another phone call. And I, you know what I told my agents that I I gave them a little bit of a heads up, like 30 minutes. Because I knew if I gave anyone too much time, I'd already talked myself out of saying anything for three years. Um I just I just had to say it. And I said I'm so relieved to for someone to know the story other than Curtis, because it was just time.

It was just time to tell it. And and even if nobody read it, at least um, at least I was free from it from carrying around that little baby gaslight that I had been holding, keeping it keeping a fire. Um, and so the the response honestly has been shocking. I I truly I never I really never expected anything. I thought my friends would all go, oh, okay, that tracks. And it would fill in some gaps so I didn't have to tell it 19 times, you know, to my book club and then my friends and then the the friends of friends. And the people who were texting me when auditions were going out this time, being like, Why aren't you in it? What's happening? Are you not doing it? And I and I could it's like, well, what can I say?

Well, no, and there's so much to say, and I can't text you all, the dancer. So I felt like I wanted to tell it and and and hopefully somebody could read it who potentially had the same fears who had been in the same position. And then I posted it and then my phone, well, Curtis and I were shooting all day, so I honestly couldn't check my phone, but my Fitbit is connected to my phone, so I get little alerts.

[41:06] Cortney Wolfson: And then it was everything like died, like all my things died. They were so busy. It was busy, she was busy. Um I've been overwhelmed at A, the support, B the uh bravery of people, even liking it, because I I think that, and for people in the room who are doing the show still, liking it or commenting, I think that it's really brief because it's I know what it's like to have, you know, chatter about something that's not necessarily positive about a project that you're doing, and to come out and support me and still be a part of it is it really hit it's hit me deep to see the support. And then I was talking to uh Rachel over at PAL, my new favorite place in the world. Um, and we were talking about the secret stories, the secret DMs of the people who have reached out to me to say, I have a story.

Here it is. People in this industry, people out of this industry, people who've had the same experiences with this creative team. People who just, you know, say, or, or the people who are like, I I have an I'm live in Ohio and I I'm not an artist, but guess what? This happened to me, and I had to hide uh the sound of my breast pump, and I switched to a manual instead of electric because I didn't want my boss to hear me pump. Like the things, and I mean, listen, I I'm not, and I'm not obviously not happy to hear anyone's horrifying story, but I certainly feel less alone. And I think that it's given me this perspective now. So you become a mom, right? And like you up to that point, I think in our business, like all of us wait a little long to be mommies. And so I thought I thought I already knew everything. Hilariously. And then you have a kid and you realize that you literally knew nothing.

[43:02] Cortney Wolfson: Yeah. And that you were tired. You thought you were tired. You thought you were tired then. That's so cute. Uh Curtis would be like, oh, our show is in our lot. Like, oh, I have to do my makeup and I can't I have to get up at 10. It's just like the things we think about now. We were like, what did we do all day? What were what are we doing? Um, but now having Ziggy, obviously have completely shifted my perspective of literally everything. And we work with a lot of young kids and young actors. I would say 95% of our clients are in our headshot photography business are 25 and under. And now as a mama, I'm looking at myself as like a pregnant lady who I was like half mom, right? You're sort of a mom when you're pregnant, but you're not, you're not a mom yet, really.

Like you don't get it yet. And I'm like therapizing myself as a mom now, looking back at that girl three years ago who didn't know, and I'm like, I'm trying to take care of her in a way that I I couldn't for myself then.

[44:16] Cortney Wolfson: Oh my God, I cannot cry again this week. Seriously. But I just I didn't, and I really didn't know how traumatized I was until I got that voicemail the Sunday before rehearsal started this go around, and I went, oh my god, I'm free. I am free. I can I can I can heal from this. It was a rusty deal, you know. I've stepped on the nail before, I've been replaced. I've been, you know, we all have. Like I said, we I love my four-week payout. She bought me many a cocktail. I'm thrilled to have it. You get sad, you move on, but the rusty nail, you know, it left an infection for three years that I didn't know how much it led into my life. And um, yeah, I'm just I'm just overwhelmed at the hug from the community. And and I feel really seen and really um uplifted. And now I'm like, okay, how do we change that? What could what could they have done? What are what were the options?

[45:15] Cortney Wolfson: And I was listening to Elizabeth Stanley, Queen Elizabeth Stanley on your podcast from the other day. And uh it was honestly a little bit triggering for me to hear her experience. I I'm like so relieved and happy to hear that there are good experiences. And at the same time, uh, the buildup to her telling her company she was pregnant was so uh parallel to what I felt this whole time. And I was gonna be transparent, and then she reached out to everybody, and and they were like, this is amazing, you're pregnant. And then when she got to the part where she was like, and then we had to start talking about logistics, and you know how this really worked. All I could think of was I never got to that part.

Yeah, they never gave I wasn't afforded logistics, I was literally just cut. And up until that point, the conversations had all been, I mean, I was the girl. It wasn't just a job, it wasn't just a 29-hour reading. I mean, there were like, are you girls ready to be nominated for Tony's conversations?

[46:14] Cortney Wolfson: Yeah. So I and I believed it all because we all we all just want to be on Broadway. We all just want to be on Broadway. And uh I I just think, okay, well, how could that conversation have changed? I mean, I mean, I made a career when I first moved here out of being an understudy. That is how we all, I mean, the majority of us got our start. And um, I love being an understudy, it was great. They could have hired a fabulous understudy in case I happened to be one of the four percent who went into labor on and there were so many other ways of going about it, or just asking me, hey court, do you think you can do this? And letting me to be the one to decide if it was too close to my due date or not. And those conversations just never happened.

[47:05] Cortney Wolfson: Um, and then, you know, then it spiraled. And then luckily my agent said, instead of a phone call, how about we email about this? And then he wrote it all down for me. Yeah, I have that paper trail for sure. Yeah, exactly.

[47:19] Jessica Rush: Oh, yeah. She's strong.

[47:20] Cortney Wolfson: Yeah, yeah. No, that's a very good point that I mean, it's it's heartening to see like the what's happening at Jagged and how they're gonna share the role, and then at Hades Town as well. But those are, you know, that is a conversation that we want to expand on because we also have to take into account the ensemble, the women of the ensemble who are mothers who also deserve time with their family, not just the leads, not just the Tony nominated or Tony winning roles, you know, because it's very easy for you know, someone mentioned how LaShawn's had a room for her girls and color purple. You know, I think Renee was like, I'd seen her ask for that, and so I knew to do that. And it's like, well, that's lovely, and I'm glad, and LaShawn's is fierce. I mean, yes, but if you're not if you're not that, what are your options?

[48:11] Cortney Wolfson: Nothing. Right, you know, there aren't any. So the conversation is much larger. And being the person to step out in the front, it takes the biggest guts. It's some long balls as our jersey boys.

[48:23] Jessica Rush: As our jersey boys, people would say.

[48:28] Cortney Wolfson: Although I have to say, like Betty White says, the vagina, it's much stronger than the ball. But um my God, thank you, Betty White. Good evening. Betty, can you hear me? I love you.

[48:40] Jessica Rush: We love you.

[48:41] Cortney Wolfson: We love you. Um, but it take it it takes a lot of bravery and to step out. And I'm so glad you did. And thank you for doing that for all of us, because there are many stories.

[48:53] Cortney Wolfson: Yeah, because at the end of the day, the the stories that make the news, the Hades Town, The Jagged Little Pill, we're gonna hear. We're gonna hear those stories of positive um behavior around pregnancy and motherhood. But we don't hear the stories of like for every one of those, there are probably hundreds of your story. So for you to put that out there and us to realize that there's so many more of those than the positive ones, um, we'll hopefully start to shift the narrative, and we'll hopefully, you know, producers out there will be like, we can't act like that. Because guess what? Just putting out the thing. Somebody's gonna out us.

[49:26] Jessica Rush: Yeah, exactly.

[49:30] Cortney Wolfson: Courtney Wilson might take to her 200 followers on Twitter and blow this up. But you know, that theater, our theater community is so small, so everybody knows about it. You know what I mean?

[49:44] Jessica Rush: Well, and it I think it hit people deep because we we've all been there. And you know, the interesting thing is all the all the gals out there who haven't been there yet, but are feeling that like oh, I just got chills thinking about it. They're like, oh no, what's gonna happen if I want to have one?

[50:01] Cortney Wolfson: Right, right. And how okay, because we're not in the we're not in the time anymore where we just quit the business. You can do that, but we don't do that anymore. You know, that's not we're not willing to do that. I still have another part of me that is this, and so I'll never quit.

[50:16] Jessica Rush: We can't quit.

[50:17] Cortney Wolfson: Even when you quit, you don't quit.

[50:19] Jessica Rush: Right.

[50:20] Cortney Wolfson: We don't can't quit. That's true.

[50:21] Jessica Rush: That's true.

[50:22] Cortney Wolfson: Even when we're I moved to Florida and I didn't quit, I'm back. We all did. I mean, come on. COVID shown us anything. It's like you can move wherever you want and do whatever, and it's still here, it's coming back. And I'm I'm happy it's it's part of the conversation now. And I I feel like one of the big words missing from my experience was that like being pregnant is temporary, of course, being a mother isn't, but pregnancy and looking like a pro a big fat pregnant lady, as I felt like at the time, that's that's temporary. It goes away.

[50:53] Cortney Wolfson: And Elizabeth Stanley's story about I interestingly enough was in for the replacement for her understudy. Who is a who was also who just the baby? Who is a friend and classmate of mine. We graduated together. She's a wonderful human being. And going in for it was like a kind of an amazing mommy moment and just made me so excited. And on every you know, you go up in the dropbox and all the like audition materials in there. They put in all caps temporary replacement for that role. And it hit me so hard. I was like, oh, this is amazing. These people don't know that putting in caps lock temporary replacement for her, spoke to all of these other people.

[51:40] Cortney Wolfson: Hey, this lady's having a baby and she will be returning. So little girls out there auditioning for it, you know. It said it to me like, don't think this is yours. You're coming in to support this mama who's away pushing a baby out, and then when she's ready, she will be back. And I thought it was magical. I was like I have nothing but praise for that team and and what Rita Kitt said to Elizabeth Stanley. I all of that just it was so beautiful. And I hope there are many, many, many more posts that sound like that and and not like mine. I hope it goes better in the future.

[52:16] Jessica Rush: Thanks for sharing that story because that made me cry.

[52:19] Cortney Wolfson: That touched my heart too. That really, you know, just to support the mamas, because there are a lot of us now. There are a lot of us, and we don't need to be quiet because why why should we?

[52:32] Jessica Rush: And at the end of the day, I'm thinking of something just popped into my head because I'm thinking in in regards to Lindsay Bradshaw, who's she is leaving Wicked, and she just posted about the fact that she's leaving Wicked because she wants to be with her family.

[52:43] Cortney Wolfson: 13 years.

[52:44] Jessica Rush: 13 years.

[52:45] Cortney Wolfson: But it was her choice.

[52:47] Jessica Rush: At the end of the day, it's about our choice.

[52:50] Cortney Wolfson: And it's not making the choice for us. It's saying, how do you feel about this? What do you want to do? Not you can't do this. Um, you know, because I think there's like a very fine line, like, you know, we want all the things, but you know, I I think about the feminist movement, and I was like, well, if you're if you're real feminist, then you're not a stay-at-home mom.

[53:10] Cortney Wolfson: No, if you're a real feminist and that's the choice you want to make for yourself, you get to choose you do.

[53:15] Jessica Rush: Exactly.

[53:15] Cortney Wolfson: It's all about choice, and it's about having that agency over what we do with our lives, um, and being afforded the opportunity to choose.

[53:23] Jessica Rush: So um Cortney, so much for being so vulnerable and for for putting it out there for all of us to hear and digest and get on our soapboxes and fight about.

[53:36] Cortney Wolfson: Thank you.

[53:36] Cortney Wolfson: Thank you for having me. Thanks for telling the story and for making me feel heard and like I'm not a complete crazy person.

[53:42] Jessica Rush: No.

[53:43] Cortney Wolfson: If anything's telling me this week, I'm like, oh, maybe I'm not crazy.

[53:47] Jessica Rush: Oh, okay.

[53:47] Cortney Wolfson: Yeah, okay, great. I'm just a mom.

[53:49] Jessica Rush: Right, cool.

[53:50] Cortney Wolfson: Yep, just a mom. Awesome. Thank you, ladies. What you're doing is awesome and important. And I I just I love you as human beings and moms and performers.

[53:59] Jessica Rush: Oh love big fan for years.

[54:07] Jessica Rush: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Mamas Talkin' Loud. Special shout outs to Justin Squiggs Robertson for our fabulous new graphic. Kristen Lopez, Bobby Lopez, and Justin Wardweber for our awesome theme song, and of course, the Broadway Podcast Network for bringing us to you.