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[0:10] Cara Cooper: Thanks so much for tuning in to this mini sode of Mama's Talking Loud.

[0:13] Jessica Rush: I'm Jessica Rush.

[0:14] Cara Cooper: And I'm Cara Cooper.

[0:15] Jessica Rush: And joining us today is someone who has been seen many times on Broadway. He is a dad talking loud today. He's been seen in Mamma Mia, Honeymoon in Vegas, Groundhog Day.

[0:26] Cara Cooper: So funny in that. Anything Goes. Most recently, he was seen in Aladdin. Please welcome Raymond J. Lee.

[0:33] Raymond J Lee: Hi, Cara. Hi, Jess. Thanks for having me. So excited to be here.

[0:38] Jessica Rush: Hi, I'm doing I'm doing I'm miming some applause for you, Ray.

[0:41] Cara Cooper: I'm gonna say, yay, hashtag pandemic parents. We're doing it.

[0:44] Raymond J Lee: We are doing it for sure.

[0:49] Cara Cooper: Oh my god. How's it going for y'all over there?

[0:50] Raymond J Lee: Oh, how's it going? I mean, you've got Ella. Just coffee, remote school. Um, we're hanging in there, you know. It's what a year of like, I feel like we live week day by day, not even week by week. It's like a day by day.

[1:03] Cara Cooper: Absolutely.

[1:05] Raymond J Lee: Yeah.

[1:06] Jessica Rush: A lot of times moment by moment, I feel like.

[1:09] Raymond J Lee: I mean things.

[1:10] Cara Cooper: Yeah.

[1:11] Raymond J Lee: Tantrum by tantrum. It's like, okay, what are you okay?

[1:14] Jessica Rush: Yeah.

[1:14] Raymond J Lee: I mean, cool, because they have so many emotions, right? That they're trying to also navigate within themselves.

[1:20] Cara Cooper: And um Ella and Elliot are in the same grade, first grade, right?

[1:24] Raymond J Lee: Yeah, yeah, first grade.

[1:25] Cara Cooper: Yeah, so Ella and Elliot are in the same grade, and then Kara's got Elon, who's you know seven, and Finn is almost four, which is crazy. So they've got all these emotions, but they don't quite know how to tell us about them, right?

[1:38] Raymond J Lee: It's like how to express it.

[1:40] Cara Cooper: Yeah.

[1:40] Raymond J Lee: It's like how do you decipher what their mood is? Because clearly something's in their brains. So it's like, uh, do I use cartoon characters? Do I use stuffed animals? Like, let's talk about what's happening inside of you. You know, like what your mind is thinking.

[1:52] Jessica Rush: Right. Truly, truly. Um, we wanted you here today, Ray. We asked you to join us to talk about your journey to parenthood, because it is something a little different, right?

[2:04] Raymond J Lee: I mean, let's just start with the fact that you're a gay dad, first off, right?

[2:09] Cara Cooper: So it doesn't come about um in the most um if we want to say like natural quote unquote. You know what I mean.

[2:15] Raymond J Lee: Yeah.

[2:16] Cara Cooper: Um Way, so will you take us through your journey?

[2:19] Raymond J Lee: Oh my goodness, yeah. So um me and my husband have been together for a while now, and we um when we first started um talking about kids, it was like what which road do we go? Do we foster? Do we um adopt? Do we surrogacy and just open adoption and or adoption was the way that we just our hearts kind of geared towards.

[2:39] Raymond J Lee: So, um luckily I was in Mamma Mia at the time and David Beach, um a fellow cast member, had adopted his beautiful daughters, um, from an organization called Spence Chapin.

[2:49] Raymond J Lee: So we went to an informational meeting and we signed up for classes.

[2:55] Raymond J Lee: Oh you know, sign us up, yeah. Don Payment here.

[3:00] Raymond J Lee: Um Um and it was funny 'cause being the gay dads in the group, it was like I think four or five other straight couples and they'd gone through the gamut of trying it naturally, um, IVF and so everybody was kind of in a very serious mood and here comes me and my husband, like, Hey, what's up, y'all?

[3:20] Raymond J Lee: Yeah, baby memos work theme.

[3:25] Jessica Rush: Yes.

[3:26] Raymond J Lee: Anybody watching Housewives?

[3:28] Cara Cooper: Uh so we went through the classes and the social worker tests and all this stuff.

[3:34] Raymond J Lee: Um, and uh we were in the books for about um two years until our daughter Ella came home.

[3:40] Raymond J Lee: Um and with Spence Chapin, the birth mom or the birth parents pick the adoptive parents.

[3:46] Raymond J Lee: And so it's an open adoption and we get to see her regularly. We saw her actually a couple days ago.

[3:52] Raymond J Lee: Um she feels like an aunt and we're very lucky, especially in gay dads with a daughter. It's like sh you know, she has had questions like, Do I have a mommy? And we say, You do, you have a mommy. She, you know, she couldn't raise you, so she picked daddy and papa to be daddy and papa.

[4:07] Raymond J Lee: So we she has this support team, this parent glam squad.

[4:12] Cara Cooper: Right.

[4:13] Jessica Rush: You're making me like tear up at 9 a.m. over here. This is like that's just so sweet.

[4:19] Raymond J Lee: I mean, that's how special that she that she has you guys and that her birth mother picked you.

[4:25] Raymond J Lee: I mean, clearly it all the stars aligned.

[4:28] Raymond J Lee: Yeah, we're very lucky. We know how uh we're so just so grateful.

[4:32] Raymond J Lee: Um, because you know, there were days when we were waiting, um, we had three or four final callbacks for kids.

[4:40] Raymond J Lee: Fully is no joke, audition, callback, final callback, you booked the job. And when you do book the job, a the money might fall through, which is what happened to us once where um we were picked and the parents decided to to raise their child.

[4:52] Raymond J Lee: So we went through it all. And there were days that we didn't know if it was gonna happen, but we picked each other back up and we're glad we did because our daughter's our world.

[5:01] Cara Cooper: Ah, I just love that so much.

[5:03] Jessica Rush: And it sounds like these conversations about, you know, I think people hear open adoption and probably think how hard that might be, right? To balance um, you know, their birth parents with with their adoptive parents and how you navigate that.

[5:18] Raymond J Lee: But man, it sounds like you it's almost happening kind of naturally and intrinsically um as she grows up.

[5:25] Cara Cooper: Were was there like a moment where you had to have a conversation or did it just come kind of come about?

[5:31] Raymond J Lee: You know, I think I think early on my husband and I decided we were just gonna be as honest as we could with her because our family is so unique.

[5:38] Raymond J Lee: I mean, he's a European mutt, I'm Korean American, she is um biracial.

[5:43] Raymond J Lee: Um so clearly all three of us are very different.

[5:46] Raymond J Lee: Um so we decided just to keep everything honest and open. If she had a question, we were gonna do our best to answer it honestly.

[5:54] Raymond J Lee: Um that was kind of our mentality from the beginning.

[5:57] Jessica Rush: And we'll see what happens when she's a teenager, but that's the I know, but I do have to agree.

[6:03] Cara Cooper: I mean, I think there's something to just being honest with your children.

[6:07] Jessica Rush: I mean, clearly speaking to them on a level and giving them information that is uh appropriate for their age, but to to be honest and open, and that's how you build the trust with your child, I think, so that they can come to you and they know that it's a safe space.

[6:27] Raymond J Lee: That is, you know, not everyone can do that.

[6:27] Cara Cooper: Um but um when you're able to, I think that is such a special, a special gift.

[6:35] Raymond J Lee: Thanks, y'all. It's funny because um there was an instant as she gets older, it's fun to see how she takes our family in and processes the family she has.

[6:43] Raymond J Lee: And there was a one little boy at our playground in Queens who just kept asking, like, Where's your mommy? Where's your mommy?

[6:48] Raymond J Lee: And she finally just had and said, I have two daddies, and like just like let him know.

[6:54] Cara Cooper: And then he stopped and was like, I wish I had two daddies.

[7:00] Raymond J Lee: Like, yes, Queen work. Okay, that worked out.

[7:05] Jessica Rush: Yes, that is the answer we wouldn't want to hear, right?

[7:09] Raymond J Lee: Oh my god.

[7:10] Cara Cooper: Oh my god. And just in a in Queens, you know, it's like, hey, yeah.

[7:15] Jessica Rush: That's raising a city kid, right?

[7:16] Raymond J Lee: I mean, have you noticed?

[7:18] Cara Cooper: I know that you guys are uh displaced to a certain degree, right?

[7:22] Raymond J Lee: So many of us are.

[7:23] Cara Cooper: We've left the city to sort of just be, you know, in in a in a world where there's more space and more air, and um if we have the privilege of being able to do that.

[7:34] Raymond J Lee: And I know you guys are upstate now, right?

[7:37] Cara Cooper: So does Ella have playmates upstate at all to do outdoor? How is that going right now?

[7:44] Raymond J Lee: Um, so yeah, so we were in Queens and we decided to be up here just because um we are fortunate to have a vacation home up here um that we'd we're renting out.

[7:53] Raymond J Lee: And now we're not, but um there's a yard, there's just ample space, she can actually run around.

[7:59] Raymond J Lee: Um we have a tiny pool, so we were able to teach her how to swim.

[8:02] Raymond J Lee: Um when it comes to playmates, we decided she's getting bored of her dad's clearly.

[8:08] Raymond J Lee: How can we find friends?

[8:10] Raymond J Lee: Um, and luckily as things have opened up here, um, we enrolled her in karate and gymnastics, and their teachers are very good about mass and social distance and um sanitizing.

[8:20] Raymond J Lee: So we've started that, and she's started to um meet other kids her age, and school has started, so she's starting to see her friends on Google, and in about a week or two, they'll be going two days a week in school, three days remote.

[8:35] Cara Cooper: So you enrolled her up there, yeah.

[8:38] Raymond J Lee: She's fully enrolled here now.

[8:40] Jessica Rush: Wow.

[8:41] Raymond J Lee: Because New York City schools, they weren't sure what was happening and they kept delaying it.

[8:46] Cara Cooper: Yeah.

[8:47] Raymond J Lee: It's a bit of a mess.

[8:48] Jessica Rush: Yeah.

[8:49] Raymond J Lee: It's a bit of a mess. Definitely.

[8:50] Cara Cooper: And I don't I mean, and I'm I mean, the administration straighters and and the teachers and everybody trying to figure this out.

[8:57] Raymond J Lee: I have so much compassion for them because it is an impossible situation.

[9:01] Jessica Rush: Yeah.

[9:01] Raymond J Lee: Um but it does kind of feel like New York dropped the ball.

[9:05] Raymond J Lee: Our principal of our elementary school is one of the fiercest, fiercest ladies ever.

[9:10] Raymond J Lee: Like she's such a kick ass principal, and I just know she's dealing with all sorts of stuff from higher end.

[9:15] Raymond J Lee: And I mean the biggest thing of us being up here was that we took public transportation to school, and it was like crowded, and there's just no way we could do that with a pandemic.

[9:26] Raymond J Lee: So that was a big reason to come up here and move.

[9:29] Cara Cooper: Yeah, Eric and I were just talking about the subways yesterday, actually.

[9:33] Cara Cooper: He was like, remember, remember the subways? Remember how crowded they were?

[9:35] Raymond J Lee: He's just like you just I think now that now that we're in this position, we think about how often we share the air closely with strangers and people we don't know, and it starts to really uh you realize, oh wow, yeah, that was that won't be happening or it I think it will forever change us, to be quite honest.

[9:57] Raymond J Lee: Like I don't think most of us will get on an airplane now without having a mask in our back pocket.

[10:02] Cara Cooper: Like I really do think you're gonna we're gonna move about the world a little differently, you know?

[10:07] Raymond J Lee: Yeah, it's funny how fast it changes too, because I was in the city last week, and um I guess I was so um numb to how close people are in the city and being away from it when I went back, I was like, people are too close, people are so it's it's interesting.

[10:25] Cara Cooper: What are you guys doing?

[10:27] Raymond J Lee: Um to I don't even know what your husband does for work, so we should cover that.

[10:32] Raymond J Lee: But what are you doing to keep yourself sustained, fulfilled, um, supporting a family? What are you doing during this time to kind of piece it all together?

[10:40] Jessica Rush: Yeah, because Raymond J Lee does all the readings.

[10:44] Raymond J Lee: Normally, Raymond J Lee is like the go-to featured actor in the readings.

[10:50] Jessica Rush: I mean, truly, for a fact, you're always doing a reading.

[10:53] Raymond J Lee: If there's a reading, it's Raymond J Lee, he's there.

[10:56] Jessica Rush: So, what's happening now?

[10:59] Raymond J Lee: I remember when I first started my career, I was like, okay, if I can hit a B and I'm ethnic, I think I can carve out some sort of niche.

[11:06] Raymond J Lee: I remember you're like, oh, because I worked on my IB and luckily I can still hit it.

[11:10] Raymond J Lee: But you've done it.

[11:12] Jessica Rush: That's true.

[11:13] Raymond J Lee: You gotta find your niche, honey.

[11:14] Jessica Rush: Good on you.

[11:15] Raymond J Lee: Get that tenor.

[11:16] Raymond J Lee: Um no, we've been uh my my husband's a muggle.

[11:20] Raymond J Lee: Um he used to work for Accenture, and um when all this happened, he was lucky to uh be up here and work remote.

[11:29] Raymond J Lee: Um there's a fast learning curve, so he's been able to do that and help pay bills.

[11:34] Raymond J Lee: Um I was in the middle of uh doing the Britney Spears musical.

[11:39] Jessica Rush: Oh, which I'm like, damn you, 2020!

[11:43] Raymond J Lee: Oh god, that's like dream musical.

[11:46] Raymond J Lee: I'm a gay boy from the 90s. Like, how dare you take this away from me?

[11:50] Jessica Rush: Literally, like live the best life in that, I'm sure.

[11:54] Raymond J Lee: Like we did a costume fitting, and like it I I looked like a pop star.

[11:58] Raymond J Lee: Like I was living every just dreams.

[12:01] Jessica Rush: I was legit Britney Spears for Halloween one year.

[12:04] Raymond J Lee: Like the the red pleather, yes you were Cara Cooper.

[12:09] Jessica Rush: Oops, and you looked hot, I'm sure.

[12:10] Raymond J Lee: So I did that again.

[12:12] Cara Cooper: Well, how far into the process were you guys when that happened?

[12:15] Raymond J Lee: We were like the second or third week of rehearsal.

[12:18] Raymond J Lee: I think we had finished, you know, staging act one. Um, once they shut down Broadway, it was like, oh, we know what's about to happen. And I know Eric too with Fly. We were like wondering what was gonna happen to, yeah, yeah. Fly down here in La Jolla. I mean, it's just everything shut down. When Broadway shut down, I was doing Tina and so we got the notice first that Broadway was shutting down, and Eric's like, come out here, you know, because we thought, okay, La Jolla, like the show might shut down, but maybe they'll at least finish the week. They had literally just opened two days before and we thought they'll finish the week at least, and then a few hours later he called me and he was like, nope, we're done.

It's done. So it's been, I think the degree and the speed at which everything was just taken away from our industry has been, there's whiplash to that. And I think there's real trauma and grief that so many of us aren't, you know, I think it comes out in fits and spurts, right? Like some, you know, you have your emotional days, but I think that's something that I don't, that hasn't really been talked about enough to be honest. It's hard because me and my husband, cause he's a muggle and you know, his office job, which he's passionate about, it's just not who he is, if that makes any sense versus what we do, it's like it's who we are, it's part of our soul. So not being unable to do that, I, you know, I'm, you know, I have a microphone, so I try and do some covers, I try and do some gigs here and there, but there's nothing like actually being on a stage and feeling like your soul is being used on earth that nothing will ever replace that, yeah.

[13:52] Raymond J Lee: It's so funny when you were doing the canned applause, Jess, like when you're clapping your hands, like I thought to myself, when will that be a thing again? When will people sit in a space and show their love for what's happening on stage that way? And that energy exchange and how incredible it is. I just, when will that be? When will that be? And I hang on to the day that it will come back. It will come back. And can you guys imagine like what that day's gonna be like? I thought about that. I mean, it's like, you know, I know we're all hoping and assuming that when it comes back, you know, for sure, like Tina comes back. Cause you know, Adrian Warren was giving you a fierce performance that needs not be missed.

She needs a Tony for that shout out. But I was talking, you know, I thought she, the show starts and the curtain rises, and she's sitting with her back to the audience center stage, um, chanting, and you can hear, and it's, it takes place at her concert in Brazil, and you can hear Tina, Tina, and like the chant of like the crowd. And I just thought I get chills thinking about when that curtain goes up the first time, like what the response will be from the audience watching that and like we're back and how emotional that will be, you know? It just, it's, oh, I can't wait. It's gonna be 15 minutes of people. I feel like everyone's gonna cry. She's gonna, everyone's gonna cry. The audience is gonna probably get on their feet because they've been waiting so long for it. It's gonna be magical.

[15:20] Raymond J Lee: Yeah, and people are wanting it. I mean, that's the thing. It's like if nothing else, I think it's making people even more aware of how vital the arts and live performance are to humanity and to our culture at, you know, at large. I mean, it's, it's a connection that is unlike anything else.

[15:38] Cara Cooper: Yeah, agreed. I even, I wasn't in a show when the shutdown happened, and I want to be in the audience of a show when it comes back. You know, most likely my husband's at the Book of Mormon. So I've thought, I've said to him, I was like, when you're back, I'm in the audience. Like we'll figure out who's taking care of the kids, but I need to be, I need to feel that. I need to feel that energy in the theater.

[16:00] Raymond J Lee: Oh, I know. I'm just like, I just feel it. Yep. Yep. Yep. We're gonna hold on to that hope. So you're doing all the things, you're like juggling all the balls, you're doing some covers, you're doing a little bit of this, a little bit of that.

[16:13] Cara Cooper: Yeah, it's so funny because I, it's like what are y'all doing? It's like I don't get a chance to, I feel like socialize. I feel like we're all like in our pods. So it's like I will take all the advice on what are y'all doing as well to like stay relatively sane when it comes to art.

[16:29] Raymond J Lee: Well, I mean, I just, a lot of, a lot of the, yeah, totally. I mean, and Elliot and I, right? I mean, there was a lot of rose and a lot of Triskets and cheese at the beginning. And then I decided this can't be, this is not sustainable. But I was like I have to, you know, I have to rein it in. But um, Elliot and I actually started a bead business recently, a beaded bracelet business. It's called Ivy and Clark. We have been making bracelets and doing lots of, I mean, I'm sure the activities are abundant at your home as well with like trying to keep them occupied. Here, I mean, when here, let me, um, he's getting up, he's getting, you speak of activities, no joke, this is what this is like. I mean, yes, oh yes, yarn or is that the yarn latched rug?

Yarning, it's, we're looking at a fabulous fox everybody and like a, like on a piece of rug just so you can, I'm pretty sure I saw that on your Instagram guys. So y'all need to hit Ray's Instagram and check that out because it's really pretty, but yeah, like the crafting, the crafting and the activity. So Elliot and I have been making bracelets for her friends and just for fun. And so I made some for myself that had like breathe on it and mama. And um, and we thought, why not, why not spread the love and spread the joy? So we started Ivy and Clark, and that's what we're doing. That's a big part of it.

[17:51] Raymond J Lee: But I think that for a while nobody really wanted, most of us, everyone responds differently, right? I mean, some people right out of the gate were doing stuff, and I remember Eric saying, my husband saying, they're gonna tire out. This is like the beginning, and then they're gonna be tired. He's like, So, because I felt like, oh, I need to be doing stuff, we need to be doing concerts, we need to be putting ourselves out there. Yeah, and then you just realize, no, you know what? It's okay. Okay, it's okay.

[18:15] Cara Cooper: I feel like, yeah, absolutely. I feel like I just now feel ready to re-enter like the audition world and all of that. Like I needed a big minute away, Jessica knows. Like, I'm, you know, the caretaking of the kids and just figuring out life and what that looked like for us. Um, and my kids are also now back in school, and I do feel like a sense of freedom and a more like returning to focusing on myself a little bit more, um, which has been incredible. But I also, I teach fitness. I, I'm a personal trainer, I've been a personal trainer for a long time, and I always do it when I'm not in a show. Do you know what I mean? It's like my side hustle. So I'm doing that now much more regularly, which is good for my, you know, endorphins and my mental health.

So yeah, just, you know, doing a little bit of everything, I feel like it's like working, working on yourself, like giving yourself finally that attention after having a survived pandemic parenting and b the business just, yeah, being on hiatus. So yeah.

[19:17] Raymond J Lee: Well, and I think coming to terms with just the fact that this is gonna go on for a while, you know. You know, I think you have to get to a point. We for sure did. Eric and I, um, where it just, we, we came back, we went to see family in August, and when we got back, it felt like there would have been a shift of like, okay. We have to thrive as best we can in the present moment of where we're at because I don't think Broadway will be back for a good long while, even longer than what we're wanting to think, you know. So um, we have to figure out how to exist in a world without live theater, which is like you said, it's our soul, it's our passion. And um, so that's, we're all just doing the best we can, right?

[19:59] Cara Cooper: Are you guys planning to now be up there for indefinitely?

[20:03] Raymond J Lee: I think indefinitely we'll be up here. Um, I will tra, you know, once Broadway does open up and if, you know, if and when I'm employed, I will go back and forth. Um, but we're enrolling her in school here. We're, we're gonna finally make the life here that I think my husband has really been wanting. Um, and yeah, and in the meantime, we're just, you know, trying to stay sane, whether it's, you know, latched rug activities and I again try to figure out the voiceover world. So I've been, you know, putting some energy into that. But there was a good time where I just, you know, had to remind myself we're living in a pandemic and I'm also a parent. So I need to give myself a break instead of trying to keep up with everybody, you know.

[20:45] Cara Cooper: Right. Yeah, because that is a very different life, you know, not to take anything away from the experiences of people who don't have children during this time, but particularly these first six months were a lot for those of us who, um, you know, uh who were doing that, who were pandemic parenting. And so to the part of us who are artists had to sort of take a back seat for a minute, right? To figure that out. Um, I remember, oh I'm sorry, I'm sorry, like I remember reading um statuses of friends who were like, I have so much time, like what do I do? And I was like told my husband like what is this time of which we speak? Yeah, when they'd be like I just woke up from my, my, you know, that nap was so good I'm like a nap what? What is a nap people? Oh my god, oh my god, you wake up refreshed, what does that feel like?

[21:08] Raymond J Lee: I know, I know. It's just, um, you know, it's, I think that not that being a parent, a working parent in normal times wasn't that, wasn't difficult also, but at least we tended to have something else to take our energies away from, you know, from full-time parenthood, you know, you could go and have your own, you know, I would go to the theater and I would have time to myself on the subway and I would, I have no time to myself commuting, commuting is me time, yeah, like that is so essential. Yeah, and there is no commuting. I'm right there with you, Kara, there's no commuting. Even at the dressing room, like it was nice to like not have to make sure, you know, I mean make sure like I always have to make sure my daughter's alive, I'm always paranoid, but at the dressing room you're like, oh we can just key key, how was your date?

What are you eating? Right? Did you watch the Avengers with no little person interrupting the conversation constantly when the most amazing thing is happening on screen, daddy I need to pee like now you're finding the next infinity stone, now you need to, oh my god.

[21:08] Raymond J Lee: Well, I mean we're doing the best we can, right? Right? I mean, we're doing the best we can and being present. Um, yeah, and can I actually add one thing, ladies? Is that okay? Because I think the number one question I always get about adoption is I just want to tell people to stay strong. That's a theme with adoption. Um, it doesn't go the way you planned, but ends up being way better than you could have ever thought in your head. And the trials and tribulations are worth it because once your kid comes home, you don't remember that other stuff. So stay strong to anyone out there that's going through the process of adoption.

[23:23] Cara Cooper: Oh, I love that, Ray. Thank you.

[23:25] Raymond J Lee: Of course, thanks for having me.

[23:28] Cara Cooper: Yeah, for sure, for sure. And we will um tell everyone, just in case they don't look at the info, what is where can they find you?

[23:35] Raymond J Lee: My uh Instagram and Twitter handles at Raymond J. Lee. And yeah, you'll see pictures of either me, my daughter, or just gay dad life.

[23:44] Cara Cooper: Well, I love gay dad life.

[23:47] Raymond J Lee: Yeah, exactly. We love the gay dad life. Thank you so much, Ray. Be well and enjoyed. Enjoy the space and the time.

[24:01] Jessica Rush: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Mama's Talkin' Loud. Special shout-outs to Rachel Spencer Hewitt for our fabulous graphic, Kristen Anderson Lopez, Bobby Lopez, and Justin Ward Weber for our awesome theme song. Our producers Dori Berinstein, Alan Seales, and of course the Broadway Podcast Network for bringing us to you. If you like what you're hearing and you want to keep the conversation going, you can follow us on Instagram and Facebook, and of course, subscribe and review us wherever you listen to your podcast. Thanks so much for tuning in.