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[0:01] Charlie Murphy: Hello, hello, and welcome to Mapping The College Audition. I'm your host, Charlie Murphy, Director of MTCA. That's Musical Theatre College Auditions. Check us out at mtca.com. And today we've got Aaron Todd Douglas from the University of Minnesota. I struggle throughout this interview and I sometimes slip up in not calling it the University of Minnesota Guthrie. Since for so many years, we colloquially refer to this program as the Guthrie Program, but we're going to get into those specifics in the interview itself. For our newer listeners, this is another one of our college deep dive episodes where we explore the landscape of the college theater world and try to demystify this daunting audition process, one school at a time.

[0:29] Charlie Murphy: And it's worth noting, this is joining a handful of our non-musical theater programs that we've had on the pod, right? We've had some BA programs, which are not necessarily exclusively musical theater, they're maybe more theater focused. We've had a lot of programs that have musical theater, acting, and dance all represented across their various schools. But now a good handful where the focus was only BFA acting and not musical theater, like the University of Minnesota.

[1:10] Charlie Murphy: I will say for our MT or bust listeners, this of course could be an episode that you end up skipping. Thank you for your download. If you feel 100% certain that you would never entertain a program that was only acting, that was not musical theater focused. But I will challenge you if you're not as sure to try to listen on. I do think musical theater majors can learn a lot in exploring the acting schools, especially since so many of the musical theater schools out there will count acting as their most important discipline of the three. And so seeing what it would be like to take that one step further and look at what acting as the sole focus could be, I think can be really interesting in the same way that some of our musical theater majors, they might explore vocal performance or dance majors as well as a possibility.

[1:57] Charlie Murphy: And then, of course, you could, of course, explore MTBFAs or BMs that really specialize in voice. You know, they're still MTBFAs, but they're really specializing in voice or MTBFAs where you get a separate rigorous dance minor or some programs that will call themselves like MTD, meaning musical theater dance, to show that they're comprehensive with the musical theater, but the focus is really strong in dance. But the important point here, and I think a lot of our regular listeners will not be surprised to hear me talk about this, the porous membrane that exists in the professional world between acting and musical theater is that it really is a spectrum. In the professional world, it is less about the degree name itself than about how you will exit school feeling confident and comfortable in which aspects of the performing arts.

[2:41] Charlie Murphy: And when we're talking about musical theater, you know, at the college level, we often start off talking about those three disciplines, but then it really fractures into lots of different subdivisions of those disciplines once you're out in the real world. Do you specialize in classical theater like Shakespeare, which I did, right? In avant-garde contemporary theater, it's a whole different skill set. In new rock musicals, in old-timey dance-heavy musicals, in commercials, in certain aspects of TV and film, in voiceovers, or likely multiple of these lanes, but also likely not 100% of them. And I think some of our artist episodes, part of what we've been trying to do is to try to showcase some of those different lanes and combinations of lanes that you can make a career in, right? And then your ability to kind of specialize and be paid in one of those fields is way less about the name on the degree than about the skill set that you actually have.

[3:29] Charlie Murphy: And again, that really goes for acting majors as well. You may not be a vocalist at the highest level, but you may be able to be in a Broadway musical if you bring other skill sets to bear and you have enough facility with song and movement, right? We've talked about that with a dozen of our podcast guests, some of which have Tony Awards in Broadway musicals like Gabriel Ebert, but also Bryce Pinkham, John Bellman, Dakin Matthews, Calvin Smith. These are all examples of people with BFA and MFA acting degrees, no musical theater, who've made a great living in musical theater, at least partially musical theater, right? And of course, vice versa with our great MT majors who end up hitting it big into TV and film, right? All of which is to say, and normally I kind of save these rants for the takeaways, but I thought it's potentially helpful for you to listen to this in the intro as you decide if you're going to listen on for the next 50 minutes.

[4:18] Charlie Murphy: All of this is really to kind of say, if you're the kind of searcher who's open to looking at a broad range of schools in your process, I think that's wonderful, right? Every year we have a lot of students who start off looking primarily at MT schools, but end up falling in love with the right BFA acting program and end up going there, even though they may have a lot of MT BFA acceptances. I just did this as a social media video where I talk through these distinctions that I'm about to go through, right? There are those people who are MT or bust, and maybe they're looking at one of the non-acting disciplines, especially heavily, you know, whether that's a BM or an MTD or that kind of thing.

[4:52] Charlie Murphy: There's MT majors who think they want MT exclusively, but are open. There are the MTs who are looking at almost all MT, but might have a few BFA actors scattered in there, right, for special programs, University of Minnesota often being one of those, like some of the other acting schools that we've already had on the pod. And then you can keep moving down the line of the spectrum. I'm describing the spectrum on the far left end, but if you keep moving down that line, we have students who are really looking at half and half, some who are looking at mostly BFA acting, but will then still sing at schools that let you audition for both MT and acting in one audition or with one application, which a lot of the schools are out there.

And then there are some, of course, on the far end of the spectrum who are not interested in MT at all and are only looking at acting programs. So wherever you fall on that spectrum is totally fine. And I'm not here to talk you into moving in any one direction or the other in terms of where you want to be on that spectrum, right, including if you are on that far left end and you're the only MT or bust category and you're about to turn off this podcast.

[5:49] Charlie Murphy: But I just think it's worth noticing that in six out of those seven categories, five out of those six categories, whatever it was, many of which were describing primarily musical theater majors, the idea of exploring a program like this would totally make sense for like 90% of you, right? Even if this school doesn't ultimately end up on your list, just in the way that you approach it, I think it'd be helpful for you. So to that end, I hope you will listen on. And for those who thought, well, we got this long takeaway intro, maybe we're going to do an entire intro without any commercial for MTCA, fear not, here it comes, just heads up to our current juniors and younger students.

[6:26] Charlie Murphy: If you're listening now, this next month, as you look at coming into March, it will be a last chance for a lot of expiring discounts, right? You're going to see all this information in your email if you're an MTCA-er, but it will be the last chance to get your mock audition at the lowest price available, your last chance to purchase the summer masterclass week at the lowest price available. Both of those have early bird discounts that are expiring in the next few weeks. And then as of April 1st, it's your last chance to get this round of the all-access pass, which includes all MTCA events, including our spring faculty masterclasses, but then everything, of course, as well, summer, a mock, all those things, right? We'll open up that access pass again after the spring, right? And it won't include spring at that point, but this is your last chance to get all of the MTCA events and to get them at the best price.

[7:08] Charlie Murphy: So think about your year, map it out, decide if it's something you want to commit to now in terms of looking at the events and how you want to participate. For our seniors, nothing commercial on your end at the moment, but I do just want to say keep on keeping on. It is still February. I record this on February 25th. It is still so early in the process for you. I know it feels like everyone has lots of results and you're going to all feel the pressure to kind of rush your process to the conclusion of where it might end up while you still have incomplete information. And I'm going to tell you, please resist that urge until you have all of your information.

[7:39] Charlie Murphy: Tons of results are still coming in. March is the single biggest month for results. They will keep coming in, right? Keep doing your research on what you know, keep in communication with the schools that are in communication with you, and then try to have some patience for the process. You have been at this for so long and it is almost over. May 1st is right around the corner, right? But try to keep trusting the process and finish strong. Don't let the fact that one of your friends heard early and they rushed to commit make you rush your process when you haven't heard all your results or heard all of your money results yet, right? You have worked too hard at this for too long to shortchange your process now.

[8:19] Charlie Murphy: You know, and as you know, for our MTCA-ers, if you're an MTCA listener out there, we do offer those complimentary end-of-year consultations with Leo where he's going to talk you through all of these questions directly, right? Those are really helpful, I think, in the stress of all this. Even for those students who have a really good idea of what decision they want to make, those sessions are still really helpful because they can prompt ideas you might not have thought of. They can prompt strategies for negotiation and a lot of helpful stuff. But mostly, the reason I'm saying this now on this podcast is just to say my heart goes out to you. I hope you have some good Netflix out there for the next couple weeks and while you're receiving these results and please, patience, patience, patience.

[8:54] Charlie Murphy: All right. That was a really long intro. Basically, there's like two intros and two takeaways mixed in one. But I hope you enjoy this interview with Aaron Todd Douglas from the University of Minnesota.

[9:06] Charlie Murphy: Well, we are so excited to be joined by Aaron Todd Douglas from the University of Minnesota. Aaron himself went to Eastern Michigan and has an MFA from Illinois Urbana-Champaign. He's acted and directed at the Goodman, Victory Gardens, Chicago Shakespeare, Steppenwolf, many amazing places. Previously spent time as acting faculty at Northwestern University, Loyola University, and is now the director of the University of Minnesota BFA acting program, which is located in the Twin Cities of Minnesota. They take classes of about 15 to 20. We will talk about specific class sizes that you do offer a BFA in acting and a BA in theater arts. Aaron, welcome on the show. How are you feeling today?

[9:50] Aaron Todd Douglas: I'm feeling great. Thank you, Charlie. That was quite a mouthful.

[9:54] Charlie Murphy: Well, you know, I try to give myself a challenge to start off with.

[9:59] Aaron Todd Douglas: Well, you know, I try to give myself a challenge to start off with. To sort of humble myself so the professors have to do the same.

[10:05] Charlie Murphy: Is there anything of that mouthful? Is there anything I missed in terms of like your previously on, in terms of your background? We're going to dive into the school, but anything you want to talk about in terms of your journey to the school, in terms of what people should know about you?

[10:15] Aaron Todd Douglas: Sure, sure. I always I still think of myself as an actor. That was my first orientation to the business and my first passion and love and thought that I would never do anything else. But after grad school, a bunch of folks that went to school with, we converged on Chicago and started Congo Square Theater Company, which is still operating today. And so, you know, went on from acting and was also producing at the time. And eventually to pay bills, I wanted to get out of the restaurants. So I got a job at Loyola and that eventually became a full-time situation and teaching and acting and producing all at the same time.

[11:02] Charlie Murphy: Yep. I love it. And maybe talk about this a little bit when we get into the training. But it looks like at Congo and maybe previously some multi-hyphenate stuff to that we didn't hit in the bio of Europe. It looks like there's a playwright playwriting in there. You're an associate artistic director, some different kind of stuff that you were playing with in terms of your multi-hyphenate artistry.

[11:18] Aaron Todd Douglas: Absolutely. And the playwriting, that was the last and the one that makes me the least comfortable. But it seems like a thing when you get to a certain point. It's like I'm not as satisfied as I want to be in these rehearsal processes. So this director, I think I can do better. Yeah. Put up or shut up. So I decided I was going to put up. And that's what I just saw an opportunity with playwriting. I was working with an organization that was providing teaching artistry for young teenagers in and outside of temporary Cook County juvenile detention all around the city. And I noticed that there's just no artistic programming for teenagers like nobody writes plays for teenagers. So that was like I decided to answer that call. And that's how I got started.

[12:09] Charlie Murphy: I like that the impetus to sort of expand your artistry was a competitive one. Like put up or shut up. Like if I can do better, I'm going to show it to it. I grew up playing sports and when that door finally closed, I was like, you know, it's time to move into a different phase of life. But you never lose that competitive spirit.

[12:28] Aaron Todd Douglas: Yeah. And I think there's nothing better to keep you motivated than a little healthy competition.

[12:32] Charlie Murphy: I love it. All right. Well, let's get a little bit into University of Minnesota. So I want to talk, you know, in brief and you've taught at a couple different universities, but just from your experience of a Minnesota student, you know what maybe distinguishes them from other universities, but also just to kind of what is the makeup of a University of Minnesota student, you know, in your time there?

[12:52] Aaron Todd Douglas: Interesting. Yeah. Our students, they tend to be one where we're a public university, so they tend to be on the blue-collar side. But I think we straddle both. We straddle a lot of socioeconomic statuses. But our students tend to be really smart. It's not easy to get into the University of Minnesota. It's not easy to state.

[13:18] Aaron Todd Douglas: Welcome to the show. Today, we're diving deep into the University of Minnesota's BFA Acting Program.

[13:48] Charlie Murphy: Great to have you here, Aaron. Let's start with the importance of alumni names when considering a school. Do they really matter?

[14:00] Aaron Todd Douglas: Alumni names can carry weight, but it's essential to focus on the program's quality and what it offers you as a student.

[14:30] Charlie Murphy: How should students get organized for the audition season?

[14:38] Aaron Todd Douglas: Organization is key. Students should create a timeline, set deadlines for themselves, and keep track of their materials.

[15:00] Charlie Murphy: What about the role of parents in this process? How can they give their child agency?

[15:10] Aaron Todd Douglas: Parents can support their children by encouraging them to take the lead in their audition journey. It's about fostering independence.

[15:40] Charlie Murphy: Can you explain what prescriptive casting means?

[15:50] Aaron Todd Douglas: Prescriptive casting refers to the idea that certain roles are suited for specific types of actors. It's important for students to understand this concept as they prepare for auditions.

[16:10] Charlie Murphy: How do students balance their schedules during the audition process?

[16:20] Aaron Todd Douglas: Balancing schedules can be tricky. Students need to prioritize their time and ensure they have space for rehearsals and self-care.

[16:50] Charlie Murphy: What does the senior year look like in your program?

[17:00] Aaron Todd Douglas: The senior year is crucial. Students engage in a capstone project, which allows them to showcase their skills and creativity.

[17:30] Charlie Murphy: How does the program incorporate classical acting?

[17:40] Aaron Todd Douglas: We emphasize classical acting through our curriculum, ensuring students have a strong foundation in this area.

[18:10] Charlie Murphy: What about training for TV and film?

[18:20] Aaron Todd Douglas: We offer workshops focused on on-camera acting and self-taping, preparing students for the industry.

[18:50] Charlie Murphy: How do you connect students with industry professionals?

[19:00] Aaron Todd Douglas: We bring in guest artists and directors to work with students, providing valuable networking opportunities.

[19:30] Charlie Murphy: What about students interested in musical theater?

[19:40] Aaron Todd Douglas: Many of our students have a strong musical theater background, and we offer classes to support that interest.

[20:10] Charlie Murphy: Can students take dance classes outside of the acting program?

[20:20] Aaron Todd Douglas: Yes, we encourage students to explore dance classes to enhance their skills and versatility.

[20:50] Charlie Murphy: How does the program support students in their artistic development?

[21:00] Aaron Todd Douglas: We focus on nurturing each student's unique voice and providing a well-rounded education in the performing arts.

[21:30] Charlie Murphy: What are some of the highlights of the program?

[21:40] Aaron Todd Douglas: Students have the opportunity to work on various projects, including concerts, cabarets, and films, allowing them to explore different facets of theater.

[22:10] Charlie Murphy: How do you ensure a balanced approach to training?

[22:20] Aaron Todd Douglas: We integrate classical text with contemporary works, ensuring students are well-prepared for a range of performances.

[22:50] Charlie Murphy: What is the importance of the Alexander technique in your program?

[23:00] Aaron Todd Douglas: The Alexander technique helps students develop body awareness and movement, which is crucial for their overall performance.

[23:30] Charlie Murphy: How do you see the future of the program evolving?

[23:40] Aaron Todd Douglas: We're continuously adapting to the industry and ensuring our curriculum remains relevant and effective for our students.

[26:36] Aaron Todd Douglas: In the department, a dance minor and working on flexibility so students have more and more access to dance classes because a number of them are interested in dance and do take a dance within the department. So that works out for us too.

[26:50] Aaron Todd Douglas: Okay, so let's address my own error, my flub just because I'm so used to so many of my friends and colleagues went to the program when it was the University of Minnesota Guthrie program. So can we just talk about the relationship, maybe the history of the relationship with the Guthrie Theater and how that works currently?

[27:04] Aaron Todd Douglas: Absolutely. The relationship is fine and it doesn't, it's not a sore spot or anything like that. People still colloquially refer to us as the Guthrie program and that's totally fine. And what it means is we're no longer in partnership with them, but we are in a relationship with them. We are in collaboration with them. So basically, instead of our students going there every single Monday, all four years, they just go for one semester Monday, all four years. So it works out well. They still get access to all the shows. We've got a great relationship with a number of people who are on staff there. The casting director is a fan and comes to see our shows. And so the relationship really hasn't changed very much. The separation was, it was kind of, you know, at the dean, provost, artistic director level. Logistical level, not the, but in terms of the, what the students care about is like, do I still have the opportunity to be in those Guthrie shows?

[28:03] Aaron Todd Douglas: Exactly. That still is happening just the same. It still happens. Our students are always on stage at the Guthrie and alumni, you know, they're always working there. That really hasn't dropped off at all. Matter of fact, if anything, under the current artistic director, I've been told that he hires our students more than his predecessors. Yep. I would love to, the one thing you didn't talk about curriculum wise, which I had in my head from friends and colleagues who have gone to the then Guthrie program is they all sort of graduate with freakish circus skills. Is that still something that can take that? You still take a circus class with not just tumbling, but they're doing all kinds. I mean, the different stuff that seems amazing and I think is one of the big draws. I think sometimes people talk about that. Is that still a current class that they take?

[28:45] Aaron Todd Douglas: It is. It is indeed. Yeah. And, and, and that, that new hire I was talking about, Joe Cranky is, he is, he's very skilled in that regard as well. Matter of fact, we've got two qualified gymnasts that are currently in the program now. One guy is a level 10 gymnast and I'm not all hip on my gymnast, but level 10, it sounds really impressive.

[29:04] Aaron Todd Douglas: Sounds a high number. Yeah. Sounds good. Is a level eight gymnast. So, you know, whenever you turn around, these people are doing flips on stage and, and our, our stage combat, we've got a terrific stage combat person. So our, our game is really tight right now in terms of the movement portion of it. And yes, freakish, freakish acrobatic skills sometimes.

[29:24] Aaron Todd Douglas: Sometimes. Yeah. Well, I mean, you see stuff that you, if you want to be on Broadway, some of those stuff that, you know, they just did water for elephants or this kind of thing. You go there, having that skillset can be really huge as well, you know, not just to be in Cirque du Soleil, but also just to be in shows and Shakespeare shows and whatever. Often that goes, that's a cool, that's a cool trick to have in here.

[29:39] Aaron Todd Douglas: We've got some friends too that have a weird specialty and like, I can play the accordion and a friend of mine plays accordion, went to Broadway for that skill. I mean, you know, he's got one of the main skills that got him on Broadway and now he's been on Broadway like six times now.

[29:52] Aaron Todd Douglas: Yep. Totally. Let's talk, so let's talk a little bit more about that senior year. You mentioned the sort of capstone project that they work on. What about sort of from senior year into the launch of the business, sort of how you're preparing your students, you know, I guess in the four years, but then, you know, how do we help with that transition into the industry itself?

[30:10] Aaron Todd Douglas: Yeah, those intensive that I spoke of, sometimes it'll be like, okay, we're going to have a resume session, you know, where we really, we're going to take you to task on these bad resumes and these bad headshots. We talk about it, we hold them up and we bring in casting directors to do that. Our students, they actually are in contact with professionals pretty much all four years. So it's not a, it's not this harsh transition where we open the car door and don't slow down and just shove them out. They are, they're well-prepped. And the second they come back from London in the spring semester of their third year, they're eligible to apply for what we call an exemption request, where if you secure an offer and a role professionally, you know, you propose that we excuse you from classes. And if it's a, we think the opportunity is strong enough, then we will do whatever we can to support it with keeping in mind that graduation is our utmost goal.

[31:08] Charlie Murphy: Yep. And I'd love to hear kind of what that, the diaspora looks like in terms of students from your school, how many stay in Minnesota for a little while? How many seem to go right to Chicago? How many go right to New York? How many go to LA? Like, what does that look like in terms of, I know you might not have exact numbers, but typically how does that work in terms of the transition to different places in the country and different aspects of the business?

[31:27] Aaron Todd Douglas: Yeah, it morphs and changes. And it's really, it's kind of defied patterns since coming out of COVID because one of the things that happened is people kind of scattered to the wind, one company, they scattered to the wind. And then two years later, like 75% of them, like 10 or 12 of them all decided to converge in New York. And so the markets are different. Sometimes they go to Atlanta too. Atlanta is still a really viable market, as you know. So yeah, they do mix it up and they move around a lot more than they used to. They don't really choose a market and plant like they did sort of back in my day, but there are patterns. But I think it's also determined by the relationships they make when they are there.

We bring in the casting director from Illinois, or American players, and they do workshops and they audition, this kind of stuff. That kind of tends to dictate where students might land. But yeah, Chicago, great market. It's a great market in the Twin Cities itself. And as well, New York. Less LA these days, and I'm not sure why exactly, but you don't really have to go there as much nowadays because of with online digital showcases and casting and stuff like that. You can still be seen without changing that zip code to the West Coast.

[32:56] Charlie Murphy: No, I think it's a great example. I know, I mean, just sort of anecdotally, I know a lot of people who went to Minnesota, spent a year or two in Minnesota, maybe working, finishing something at the Guthrie, working for the acting company, doing something or something that kind of jumped out of that, their school experience, and then moved to either to Chicago or to New York. Some of them who did Minnesota for a couple of years, and then Chicago, and then New York with all those different versions of the journey. But just sort of having that relationship with both a theater, but then also a city, I think can be really helpful early on just to know, I got some credits and I got some, that you're not necessarily, some of them still made the leap immediately to New York, but just knowing that you don't, that's not the only option that you have to go right to New York immediately.

[33:36] Aaron Todd Douglas: I think you're right. And I think that will continue to happen. It's just hard for people to know if they're ready or feel ready. You know what I mean? There's no knowing, it's more about what you, if you feel you're ready or not, and sticking around a couple of years, getting some credits, maybe getting the equity card or not, that certainly does embolden them to make that leap in a couple of years. That is definitely one of the patterns.

[33:53] Charlie Murphy: Yep. You gave me a little bit of this at the top when you're talking about the school in general, but I'd just love to hear kind of outside of the theater program, what about the University of Minnesota in general? You know, what is that campus experience like? What are those, you mentioned frats and sports, and what are the sort of experiences of a college student outside of the theater program?

[34:11] Aaron Todd Douglas: It varies because of our cohort system, which they are together all the time, and they develop these really intense friendships and relationships. So a lot of times I end up having to really encourage them, maybe you should move across campus this year. Maybe you should develop some outside interests so that all your eggs aren't in one basket, so to speak. Again, that's me and the well-rounded person. But I think it's a great experience for them because there's so much going on in the city. There's great music, there's a great dance culture, and there's tons of theater to see and do. So the students, they have a great experience in terms of being a major Big Ten university, so they have the best of that, but they also have this kind of boutique experience.

We're not a huge program, so they're getting that nurturing and these really close relationships with faculty and great experiences. Again, I talked about this cohort system. We do prescriptive casting where we curate everyone's experience. There's a lot of programs you go to, and you shoot your shot, you audition, and then you maybe get on stage once or twice by the time graduation comes around. We put our students to work every single semester. Everybody gets, at some point, a larger role, a supporting role, transformational roles. So everybody gets a good experience. We invest in every single student that crosses our threshold, and I think that's kind of important. That's why we try to recruit so carefully. I mean, it's all a leap of faith, but again, we want students to graduate, and we want them to have a well-rounded experience so they can meet the marketplace.

[36:03] Charlie Murphy: I love that. Let's talk a little bit about costs. So our crack research team came up with the tuition being about $35,000 per year. What does that look like in terms of what most students could expect to pay when we talk about scholarships? And then just how do scholarships work when we're talking about something like, am I getting academic scholarships? Am I getting talent-based scholarships? Is it mostly need-based? How does that work for you guys?

[36:22] Aaron Todd Douglas: Yeah. As a public school, I would say the more of the scholarship money is need-based, but we do definitely have merit-based scholarships, and it comes in a couple of different forms. There are some programmatic and department funds that I can manage and distribute, and also the college and the university, they have a much larger pot to draw from. And so we kind of combine those to try to make the most attractive offers as possible, because we do want our program. I think it's a great experience when students are studying with people from different walks of life, from different perspectives of this country, and even this world. And I think that that's great. We do have in-state reciprocity with Wisconsin and the Dakotas, and that's kind of helpful to us, because it allows us to recruit in that way and make the dollars stretch a little bit farther.

[37:26] Charlie Murphy: Yep. I love it. It's well said. I'd love to kind of now imagine that world of one of our students who, and I didn't mean to mention some of your competitor schools, and not intending to omit any of them. There are probably many other ones. If they were listening, we'd go, hey, I should be on that list, which I'm sure you should. But let's imagine we have a student who got into four, five, six really strong BFA acting programs, and they're sitting down with you and they're trying to make that decision. Maybe they're negotiating that exact scholarship, but they're sitting there and they're going, okay, so ATD, maybe they've gotten familiar enough. ATD, talk to me. Why should I choose Guthrie over, why should I choose University of Minnesota over UNCSA or over Rutgers?

They're sitting down, they're making those kinds of decisions. Why do you find that students end up choosing you, both in terms of your pitch and maybe what works? And then if you know, why do they choose somewhere else? If you hear from them, they go, oh, I loved you. This was so fun meeting you, but I decided to go to the other school because of X. Do you have a sense of what those reasons are?

[38:29] Aaron Todd Douglas: Yeah. Yeah. I think students pick us because they get to know, obviously we encourage them to visit and to see the work, and that usually does most of the job for us to talk to people that they know who've been through or look at actors that they like that have come through the program. Those kinds of things do most of the work for them. I don't like to be a salesman. I don't like to sell snake oil or anything like that. It's just get to know us, understand that we mean what we say. When I say we invest in every student, that's exactly what I mean. And every student acquires a sincere skill set, and they are prepared to meet that marketplace wherever they are. We don't, we're not trying to break anybody down and build them up.

We build them up to build them up. You know, we don't have a cookie cutter type or style. We're kind of accessible to all different types and walks of life. The people that decide not to work with us, typically it's because we can't offer them the kind of money that, you know, some of the other schools can offer them, but we can offer them small group training, ensemble feel, great text skills, that kind of stuff. Somehow you avoided that whole answer without mentioning the weather. I feel like at least some students would say it's too damn cold, right? We sell it by saying here's what we do. We have four seasons, at least four. Actually, we have more like eight seasons, and four of those are winter. But...

[39:54] Aaron Todd Douglas: No, I know my experience. I got to visit there. One of my friends attended, so I visited forever back then. And it's my first time experiencing everything's underground. You have the ability in February to never go up above ground somehow. This is like a Minnesota-specific thing. Not being from there, I'd never experienced that before. It's kind of nice having these, downtown Minneapolis, they have these hamster tunnels, you know, they go through. Hamster tunnels, yes. Underground tunnels, yeah, yeah. Theoretically, it's cold, but you don't necessarily have to know it if you're inside. That's right. You don't have to go very far, you know, get that door right across the street. You're good to go. Yeah, I love it. All right, so we'll be back in a flash. We'll take a quick break. We'll be back in a flash. We'll talk a little bit more about the audition process. So stick with us.

[40:39] Charlie Murphy: All right, we are back with Aaron Todd Douglas, colloquially ATD. We may be trying to slip that in if you hear me do that. I'd just love to talk in short about what makes a great audition for you. When you're on the audition tour, what are you looking for? Because obviously, you have to make some decisions to narrow it down. It's like, what are you looking for? And what helps you kind of call down, this might be a University of Minnesota student, and this might not be?

[41:00] Aaron Todd Douglas: Yeah. I need to get a sense of who the human being is, as well as the actor. I mean, I don't know about you, Charlie, but I was not fully formed when I was a 17-year-old.

[41:12] Charlie Murphy: I was. 17 was my peak, to be honest. I'm just all, it's all just downhill for me in a bad way.

[41:18] Aaron Todd Douglas: Yeah. So you try to really focus on potential and capacity, rather than what's in front of you right now. Some kids, they don't have access to go to all these wonderful training cherubs and arts bridge. They don't have the capacity for that. Talent is distributed, but opportunity isn't necessarily well distributed in this life. So we try to really allow for that growth. And again, that leap of faith, but also, you do this for a while, you can get a sense of someone about who they are. I like to talk to them. I like to find out where their weirdness lies, where their quirks are. Are they curious? Are they intellectual? Are they hungry? Is this person fun? Do we, do you want to spend time with this person?

And those things mean a lot to me. One of the things I don't like about the digital audition, it's really helpful. It can be incredibly, incredibly helpful. But a lot of times when students will do a slate and then edit it and then cut away and they're writing this thing, it's like, I need to see that transition from applicant to actor, to character. I need to see that moment before. That just tells me so, so, so much. So nothing ever beats the in-person vibe. And I try to have the ability in person to calm them down so they can do their best work. I want to make the friendliest audition room possible because I know what it's like on the other side. And there's nothing good can come from looking down your nose at somebody intimidating them.

[43:04] Charlie Murphy: Yep. I love that. I want to burrow down on a couple of things you just said there, but let's start off burrowing down on the sort of video audition. So in terms of how you would use a video versus then how you would use a virtual audition and then all the different ways that we could, so a live virtual audition versus a video versus all the different ways I can sort of actually audition for you in terms of on campus, other regional opportunities. So what do the different, how does that progression look like for you if you're going to see me in different forms?

[43:30] Aaron Todd Douglas: Yeah, we do. The summer before we kind of started off by going to like International Thespian Festival, making a couple of recruitment trips just to get the ball rolling to get that recruiting season started. But I don't hold people accountable to that because there's still, there's a lot of growth that happens between August or even July to this season. Now we're in the season. Matter of fact, there's a ton of growth that happens from the time that they tape there. We use Accepted. And they're taping those in October. Absolutely. We just did a whole takeaway about this of how different you are in October versus now. But some schools do use those videos. They may watch them again in March. So you go, oh, that's hard.

It's frustrating when you're like, I'm better than I was then. Yeah. Yeah. And I watch them. Of course I watch them. But when I come in and when somebody walks in the room and we're doing the Unifieds, that is the next step where most of it all gets done. We have an on-campus audition before Unified seasons, like in the second week of January, and then we do Chicago and New York. We don't necessarily do LA anymore. Not that many people go out anymore. But I do make a recruitment trip in the summertime to LA. But when they walk in the door, that's where the real magic happens in this time of year, going to Chicago in a couple of days, back to New York. And that's where, that audition is going to trump anything we see on video. But sometimes we refer back to that video that we all looked at and talk about this person. Sometimes, you know, you need more than a single dot to plot a line. You need two.

[45:04] Charlie Murphy: Yep. I love it. Okay. So I want to talk more about the callback audition, the live audition, but what are you looking for then in the, if we call it a pre-screen or in the video audition, what are you looking for in the first video that might say, yes, I want to see more from this student or no, I don't necessarily want to see more from this student?

[45:23] Aaron Todd Douglas: Storytelling is huge for me. You tell a story, you know, do you have the capacity for humor? You don't have to be downright funny. Yep. But are you, are you able, do you understand humor, you know, rhythm? Can you, can you set up a joke? Can you deliver a punchline? Can you take it down? And also rhythm in terms of phrasing for a monologue. You know, I want to see if you understand that monologues need to be active. They can't be this passive reflective storytelling thing. They need to be somebody on a journey pursuing a want, but again, those, that last part pursuing a want, that's, you know, sometimes you don't have students that don't have access to this. They haven't been trained. They don't know this kind of stuff.

So you have to try to pull things out of them. I like to give an adjustment in the room to see how they respond. Those are the things I look at. Can they, can they look me in the eye? Can they articulate what it is they love about this business? You know, if I ask them a question about their character, even if they get the answer wrong, can they articulate something clearly? Yep. It's also well said.

[46:29] Charlie Murphy: I want to now create this one. I want to bro down because I love the, the word capacity. I think it's such a great word. You know, especially cause I think a lot of our students who may have started in the musical theater, you know, we have an understanding of like talent from like what a great singing voice is and you can kick your face dancing. We know what that is, right? But so if I'm looking for capacity, if I'm looking for potential in an acting talent and what we're going to call acting talent, I think it is a bit more ineffable. How are you, what are you, how are you sniffing for that capacity in the Shakespearean sense? How are we sounding out the depths, right? What are you doing? And then what are you looking for to resonate back to you when you're going, this person seems to have a lot of capacity for growth, even though they might not be as far along, this person might be farther along, but I'm not necessarily sensing a capacity for growth. What does that mean for you as you're sort of looking for that capacity?

[47:16] Aaron Todd Douglas: I think there's an empathy you look for. This person, can they, do they have the capacity to put themselves in another human being's shoes and reflect their, their journey, their, their challenges, their obstacles, their pain. Can they deliver an image from words to deed? Can they, can they put an image in their mind? Can they transport themselves somewhere or transport me somewhere? That'd be even better if they could, if they could do that. A lot of times it goes back to a spark. Are they a go-getter? Are they hungry? Are they fun? Do they love language? Do they want to solve problems? Because at the heart of what we do is a problem solver. I want somebody to, who's just as, as obnoxious as I am, downright ignoring as I am about, I don't have to be right all the time, but I do want the information.

I do want to be close to right. I, you know, I love being right, but I won't live or die if I'm, if I'm wrong. But if, if I don't know something, I'll look it up. Would this person look up the answer if they don't know something?

[48:37] Charlie Murphy: Yep. And zeroing in on that, that redirect or the adjustment that you might give them, is there, what are you looking for? What are you testing for as you throw them an adjustment? Is there something beyond just the willingness to take the adjustment and be flexible? Is there something that you might go, you could think a lot of our students now when they're getting adjustments are going, what did they want from me? Why did they do that? I, I, was it, mean it wasn't good? Like, what are they, what are you looking for in that sounding out when you give an adjustment? What are you hoping to sort of learn?

[49:02] Aaron Todd Douglas: Listening? Are they hearing me? Can they tune out the noise of the distractions of this, this artificial construct of an audition process? Can they tune that out? Are they listening to me and can they process it? Are they wouldn't? Is it, is it a practice to the point where nothing will ever, ever change no matter what I say or do in this, in this room right now? What am I looking for to give an adjustment? I think, I think that's it. I think those are the main things. And obviously, I imagine it varies from adjustment to adjustment. In the room, are they present right here and now? And can they, you know, change?

[49:44] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's covered, I guess. Yeah. Love it. Coming back a little to those MT-focused students, you know, so when you meet an MT-focused student, you said you like making that conversion sometimes. And you, and you know that, you know, they'll say, yes, I'm a singer. You're one of three acting schools that I'm auditioning for, but I really love singing. You know, is there something that you're looking for in that student in conversation in terms of like, are you sniffing for a certain kind of seriousness of purpose? Or are you thinking, will this student ever potentially attend me? Or am I sort of a backup? Like, is there any sort of thing that you're looking for from a more musical theater-focused student that's different than you might be from someone who says, I know I'm interested in only acting schools?

[50:18] Aaron Todd Douglas: Just the openness. You know, are you, are you entertaining this? Or are you just kind of doing this because, you know, your mom wanted you to, or somebody told you you ought to. If you're genuinely interested in this, then I'll go with you. I'll take it on face value. I don't, I don't prejudge MT actors or any actors for that matter. I want to, I want, I want us both to start with square one, because you got to want to be here as much as we want you to be here.

[50:57] Charlie Murphy: Yep. Well said. One thing I forgot to ask around the pre-screen was, what approximately, what percentage of students are getting a callback? So in terms of when you first see those videos and how many students are being invited to then do an audition from that?

[51:13] Aaron Todd Douglas: Of course, only share if you're willing to, you don't have to, if you don't want to share the secret sauce.

[51:15] Aaron Todd Douglas: No, I appreciate that, but I don't mind. Honestly, Charlie, we don't, we don't really discourage anybody from attending a live audition. We, you know, we look at the, we look at the digital accepted audition and then we score, you know, the thumbs up, thumbs down or whatever. And, and if they're interested in us, we will absolutely give them the chance to audition in person. Cause I think that that's important. Everybody deserves a couple of swings at the plate. That's really cool. So it's just a piece of information along the road for you. It's not, it's not going to preclude them from the ability to have a live audition. It was just, if anything, you're going to see this and then maybe you see growth of if they're going to come back and say, I'm a better actor. That's really cool. I would say of the people we initially see in the digital, we're probably actually highly interested in, you know, maybe half that if they're get to go to the course.

[52:16] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. And then, you know, if you had to estimate like how much then in terms of those students, I don't need a percentage, I guess, of the students, but how much of, in terms of your process is then related to the academics versus the artistic. So how does it basically work in terms of, you know, if you're interested in a student artistically, how does that then work with the Office of Admissions in terms of how they are admitted to the university and if there's any dialogue back and forth that way?

[52:39] Aaron Todd Douglas: Yeah, there's a lot of dialogue, honestly. They ask, when someone, when they're about to disqualify somebody, they ask if we're considering them. If we're considering them, they go, okay. And then there's a couple of steps. Sometimes it's like, well, we need to see what this last semester grades are going to look like. I can argue on their behalf, which I often do. But, you know, you gotta, you can't argue for 20 people. You can only argue for three or four.

[53:12] Aaron Todd Douglas: We have with the world we want to see. Yeah. And it's a challenge, especially if I don't have scholarship dollars to compete with, you know, Juilliards or Carnegie's, whatever.

[54:31] Charlie Murphy: Yep, totally makes sense.

[54:33] Aaron Todd Douglas: Oh, and then we mentioned a little bit about online auditions. So, are you also hosting virtual callbacks as well beyond the video? Whether have the opportunity to do a virtual Zoom for you or is it mostly, hey, I'm going to come to one of the unifieds, come to on campus, and then there's the video component?

[54:46] Charlie Murphy: If they cannot make it.

[54:47] Aaron Todd Douglas: We want to see everyone at least once live. Yep. And if they can't come to on campus or one of the unifieds, then matter of fact tonight I'm going to see like three people in an actual input.

[55:03] Charlie Murphy: What is it, real-time Zoom?

[55:04] Aaron Todd Douglas: Yeah, so we can have questions and have it like that interview portion of it. Yep. But we also invite, you know, we designate a couple of productions over the course of the semester where we strongly encourage students to come see the work, meet some people to where the spaces, get to know faculty, and we stay out of it in a lot of ways. We really empower our students to speak with the candidates.

[55:31] Charlie Murphy: And I want them to have the unvarnished truth rather than talking to somebody, you know, two, three times their age.

[55:36] Aaron Todd Douglas: Yep. Well, three times you're not three times, maybe two and a half.

[55:42] Charlie Murphy: You mentioned that, so and I would love to kind of talk about, you know, I know in the past there was an official like sort of mandatory callback weekend that was part of the thing. Is that no longer a mandatory thing or is that still?

[55:57] Aaron Todd Douglas: Well, you know, we kind of, as the world changed and evolved, it was a great thing, and it was very, it was kind of a signature thing for our program. But as the world kind of evolved, people getting more paranoid, liabilities and things like that came into play and so we've had to let that go unfortunately. I wish we could still do it because it was just, it was an impressive endeavor.

[56:25] Charlie Murphy: It really seems like it modeled more some MFA program. There are a lot of MFA programs would have that kind of a callback weekend or a second callback in some ways.

[56:37] Aaron Todd Douglas: And yeah, you guys were unique. You're only a handful of schools that do anything like that.

[56:42] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. And, you know, you get new chairs and they go, you're spending how much on that?

[56:46] Aaron Todd Douglas: Yeah, totally, totally. But it sounds like there's still some constructs of what may maybe become visiting weekends for admitted students then where you're encouraging something similar in atmosphere, some elements of that that you're trying to maintain.

[56:53] Aaron Todd Douglas: Yes, absolutely. That is the kind of the purpose of that without us absorbing liability and spending more money than deans and chairs would prefer. Yeah, I want to know that works really well because there's nothing that, I mean, the proof is in the pudding. If you come and you're like, this is not my type of work. Yeah, fine. Good. It's best to know that now as opposed to, you know, a year and a half, two years in, and then you're kind of trying to change course.

[59:07] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, it's much better to know exactly what you're getting into. I love it. Well, now that we started talking about liabilities and logistical things that are people are falling asleep, so we're going to start moving toward wrapping up this interview. Is there anything else that you wanted to hit in terms of either the school itself or the admissions process that we didn't get to?

[59:31] Aaron Todd Douglas: I could add that the springs in the summers here are awesome.

[59:38] Charlie Murphy: Oh yeah, he told us about the four negative seasons. Give us the four.

[59:45] Aaron Todd Douglas: It's beautiful. It really is beautiful, and it really is a cosmopolitan city. My undergrad was in Ypsilanti, Michigan, and my grad great school, great facilities, but it was in the middle of cornfields, you know, in downstate Illinois. But so I do really appreciate that we are in a really world-renowned city with so much going, so much to offer.

[1:00:07] Charlie Murphy: Totally. All right, well, I'd love to just wrap up with, you know, a lot of our listeners are parents, you know, parents theoretically listening for the sake of their children and then making their children. This is what I heard this weekend more than my kids would come up and say my mom is such a big fan of your podcast and like, and you're not, what are you trying to tell me? This is your process. Why is mom doing all the listening? But a lot of, of course, listeners are parents who listen for their children, and I just love to kind of hear if you have any advice to the parents in terms of them going through this process of just like how they can support their child, how they can help their child through this process.

[1:00:44] Aaron Todd Douglas: Yeah, I think one of the things is, get that separate college email, that separate all the all things concerning this whole process, do a separate email and then you can just shut it down and forget about it later. That's the one of the things too is, you have to empower your kids, give them the agency to lead this endeavor because it reflects fully on them. I'm dealing with adults. I love parents. I appreciate parents, I talk to parents, I try to schmooze them up and, you know, be as friendly as possible, but the fact of the matter is my contract, my service is to the student, not the parents. So you're not doing them any favors when you are doing all the difficult stuff for them because that's the point of college, you're supposed to get better at difficult stuff. Stuff doesn't get easier.

[1:01:52] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, just get better at hard stuff.

[1:01:55] Aaron Todd Douglas: All right, well, if students and parents but mostly students leading this process would like to hear more information about your school, where's the best place then? You want to write to the website? Do you like social media? Is there any better places for them to check out more information?

[1:02:09] Aaron Todd Douglas: Yeah, I think go to the school's website and accepted, you know, there are stuff is pretty condensed on the accepted app and it's in one place and you don't have to surf around the school website, but all the stuff is there on the school website as well.

[1:02:23] Charlie Murphy: I love it. Well, Aaron Todd, ATD, it was so great to get to chat with you. I really appreciate the time.

[1:02:29] Aaron Todd Douglas: Thank you so much, Joey.

[1:02:39] Charlie Murphy: Yes, yes, yes, I really hope you enjoyed that conversation. I wrote down so many takeaways from it. I'm not sure why I have so many from this one, but I'm going to try to be as distinct as possible as I went down the list, but I'm going to do a lot of them. The first one is a small one. But did you notice that Aaron referred to slash artists early in the episode, just noting, this is a different way of saying multi-hyphenate artists, right? It's actually my preferred way of saying it. I used to say it that way since I do normally say or write actor slash director slash writer or whatever, right? But I've given in to the popular vote of multi-hyphenate. That's a more common way of expressing this same concept.

[1:03:03] I do think it sounds better to say multi-hyphenate rather than saying many slashes, right? But I just wanted to give some love for that way of saying it too because I do think that is like, that's how I thought of saying it and a lot of people do still say that, or I've substantially some older generations of people will say that. I can't believe I'm an older generation of people.

[1:03:32] The second is another smaller one, but did you notice that he quickly said, even a Tony winner? Right. So, in this I'm guessing he's referring to Santino Fontana, who was in the first class of the Guthrie program. I don't know why I said Santino's name, but that weirdly, but we'll move on from it, right? But for those, you know, Santino's career, he went and had a great career in musicals, including being like Prince Hans in the movie Frozen, and then starring opposite my wife at Carnegie Hall. I mean, you can look at the rest of his amazing credits, but those are the most ones that are relevant to my life with a three-year-old who watches Frozen all the time. But I wrote this down as a takeaway because I think it is funny, the way that these schools are sometimes reticent about name dropping, like they feel it will be uncouth to brag about specific successful alumni, even though actually could be really interesting to all of you to know if you don't happen to know who went to these schools, right?

[1:04:22] It's funny with this because with these in-person specifics, or in-person on these interviews live specifics, I always really love it, but on a website, I actually tend to not love like a notable alumni list because I think they can be really deceptive at different schools. If you just go to those quick Google of notable alumni, right, sometimes those are people who are directly related to a BFA program and should totally count like Santino. And sometimes they attend for one semester, or sometimes they did the summer program, or they were entirely a different major at the school, some of these people that they're going to list, right? So not to go too deep into the minutiae there, but I do think when you just glance through a list, it can be a bit deceptive, and also this is what gets into the top program when we talk about the numbers, which schools have tons of numbers of alumni. And so when you look at that, it can be a little confusing.

[1:05:05] But I do think it's generally helpful to hear and know when there are these kind of alumni who put schools on the map, right? And I think Santino is kind of illustrative in this case because he was in the inaugural class of the University of Minnesota, so it also gives you kind of a sense of how new the program is when you know this is someone in their inaugural class, right? In the same way that we're about to have Oklahoma City on the pod in a few weeks, and Christian Chenoweth really was like a breakthrough name to put that school on the map in a different way, though in this case, it wasn't their inaugural class. But I keep saying inaugural weirdly, inaugural, right? But I do think those alumni names, just having a sense of like, oh, they went there and they went there, they can be helpful, even though I would always be careful in kind of how deceptive they can be when you're just looking at a website.

You know, if you Google like NYU alumni, it's like almost what does that mean in terms of all the different schools, the MFA, the BFA? It can be a little bit confusing when you're looking at those lists, but in some cases, I think helpful to have a sense of alumni that went there.

[1:06:00] Okay, sticking with our quick hitters, I really love that Aaron revealed that they are having a live online kind of like sneak-in day for three people tonight as he recorded it, right? I always say with those things, it can never hurt to ask. Many schools will make something like this happen, even if it's not a day specifically listed on the website. And honestly, the same can be true for live auditions, though in that case, it tends to be more common at less competitive schools and more difficult at more competitive schools.

[1:06:30] Charlie Murphy: Welcome back to Mapping The College Audition. I’m your host, Charlie Murphy, and today we have a fantastic guest with us, Aaron Todd Douglas, the Director of the University of Minnesota BFA Acting Program. Aaron, thank you for joining us today.

[1:06:45] Aaron Todd Douglas: Thank you for having me, Charlie. I’m excited to be here and talk about the program and the audition process.

[1:06:52] Charlie Murphy: Absolutely! So, let’s dive right in. One of the questions I often hear from students and parents is, do alumni names matter when looking at a school? What’s your take on that?

[1:07:05] Aaron Todd Douglas: That’s a great question. I think it can matter, but it’s not the only thing to consider. Alumni success can indicate the quality of the training and the connections that the school has in the industry. However, it’s also important to look at the current faculty, the curriculum, and how the program aligns with your personal goals as an artist.

[1:07:30] Charlie Murphy: That makes a lot of sense. So, when students are preparing for the audition season, what are some organizational tips you would give them?

[1:07:39] Aaron Todd Douglas: Organization is key! I recommend creating a timeline for your auditions, including deadlines for applications, video submissions, and in-person auditions. Use a planner or digital calendar to keep track of everything. Also, make sure to have a dedicated space for your materials, like headshots and resumes, so you can easily access them when needed.

[1:08:05] Charlie Murphy: Great advice! Now, I know that parents often want to help their children during this process. What are some ways parents can give their child agency to lead in their audition journey?

[1:08:17] Aaron Todd Douglas: It’s important for parents to support their children but also to allow them to take the lead. Encourage them to make decisions about their audition materials and schools they want to apply to. Have open conversations about their goals and aspirations, but ultimately let them take ownership of the process. This builds confidence and independence.

[1:08:40] Charlie Murphy: That’s such a valuable perspective. Now, let’s talk about prescriptive casting. Can you explain what that means and how it affects students during auditions?

[1:08:50] Aaron Todd Douglas: Prescriptive casting refers to the idea that certain roles are often cast based on specific characteristics or traits that align with the character. For students, this means understanding that they may not fit every role they audition for, and that’s okay. It’s important to focus on roles that resonate with them and showcase their unique talents.

[1:09:15] Charlie Murphy: Absolutely! It’s all about finding the right fit. Before we wrap up, do you have any final thoughts or tips for students preparing for their college auditions?

[1:09:25] Aaron Todd Douglas: Yes! I would say to stay true to yourself and your artistry. Choose material that you connect with and that showcases your strengths. And remember, the audition process is as much about finding the right school for you as it is about impressing the panel. Good luck to everyone out there!

[1:09:45] Charlie Murphy: Thank you so much, Aaron, for sharing your insights today. It’s been a pleasure having you on the podcast.

[1:09:52] Aaron Todd Douglas: Thank you, Charlie! I appreciate the opportunity to talk about the program and the audition process.

[1:09:58] Charlie Murphy: And to our listeners, if you have any questions about the college audition process, feel free to reach out at mailbag@mappingthecollegeaudition.com. Don’t forget to check out MTCA for help with your individualized preparation for your college audition journey. Until next time!