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[0:09] Charlie Murphy: Hello, hello, and welcome to Mapping The College Audition. I'm your host, Charlie Murphy, director of MTCA. That's Musical Theater College Auditions. Check us out at MTCA.com. And today we've got Anne Josephson on the podcast. Three-time alumni mother and world record-holding legend that she is. For our newer listeners in these artist exploration episodes, we aim to explore the path to success that artists have forged and are still forging, and to tease out how their theatrical training has helped them to blaze that trail. And this is an episode I've been excited to do for a while. I was trying to get the timing right for this episode since what I was most excited to talk about was all, you know, there's all these wise areas that I think Anne could really touch on, but especially I want to try to highlight some of those alternate paths that our students can take, which is a lot harder than you might think to actively shine the light on those paths in ways that I think that actually can be interesting and relevant to all of you, many of whom are focused right now on the path of being a professional actor, right?

But as we'll talk about with Anne in this interview, we really do try to celebrate all the paths our MTCA students end up taking after graduation, which are varied and many. And I thought this was a really fun opportunity to try to highlight some of that. Um, you're gonna hear about Anne's three different MTCA alumni children, and you're gonna hear about three completely different people and three totally different paths. Um, one of them went to a very academic BFA liberal arts program in NYU. One went to a more conservatory style BFA in Pace, and one ended up bouncing around a few different college options before ultimately choosing to enter the industry at a younger age directly. Really different paths for different people.

Um, so we'll certainly talk about that in the episode. Um, but I do think it's nice to see the perspective of someone who has adult children. You're gonna hear that Anne just became a grandmother. Uh, in seeing how some of those kind of transferable skills that we always talk about, how they can directly be applied with different paths. So um, we always talk about those skills, but it's fun to see some of those awesome life skills actually paying off. Uh, Anne was actually one of the very first alumni parents I wanted to have on when we started doing this podcast for precisely that reason. But I'll say the one thing that you won't get this from this interview, and it's why I wanted to hold Anne to be a little bit later, is you're not gonna get an incredibly current perspective.

For those who are looking more for the tips and tricks on this process and how it might apply to you today, I would advise maybe listen back to some of those alumni interviews that we've had with parents who did the process in the last two or three years, which we've had many of those at this point. I mean, Anne's last child just graduated from Pace in 2020. So Anne's perspective is certainly valuable in its duration, which is why I wanted to have her on, but not in its currentness. Um, and of course, speaking of currentness, uh, it was amazing to see so many of our families at junior intensive in person this weekend. What a blast. Thank you, of course, to those of you who came up to me and said hi, and that you're podcast listeners.

That always means the world to me. Uh, I will just say, in general, the energy was amazing from the students and our coaches. Everyone was really inspired from the weekend. Um, I will say the biggest overarching note, I said this at the meeting, but the biggest note I got from our coaches was how positive and game this class of students was. They felt like they kind of finally achieved that that like over-the-hump quality that was lingering from COVID in some of the ways that students, you know, during COVID, maybe weren't as alive in the room in their body. And you know, they just felt that it was notable this year that really felt like like 2018 or like 2019 used to feel in terms of how students felt alive and playful in the room.

So kudos to all of you juniors and sophomores who did uh junior intensive, really awesome. And if you are listening to this episode on drop day, if you're listening on this Wednesday, there is still time, like literally 12 more hours to sign up for junior intensive online, which will be this weekend. Um, for our seniors, please make sure you are checking out the webinar this week. We're gonna talk about kind of debriefing Unifieds and what those next steps are. And please make sure for all of you, those who do the webinar and not, though all of you should be doing the webinar, of course, but please make sure you're taking those deep breaths and not rushing your process. As I record this sentence, it is still mid-February, meaning there is lots and lots of time to still make your final decisions, to visit your schools and complete your process.

Please don't rush to finish your process out of a feeling of artificial pressure from these schools. Find that right balance for yourself. You don't necessarily have to wait all the way up until May 1st. If you've completed your steps and you've arrived at your answer in a way that works for you, great. But it would be silly to put down a deposit before you've even gotten all of your results, which in mid-February, none of you have gotten all of your results. So please hear that. I definitely understand the urgency to have this process done, but you owe yourself a thoroughness to complete this crazy and beautiful journey that you've begun. All right, shall we get to it? I think you're really gonna enjoy this conversation with the great Anne Josephson.

[5:10] Charlie Murphy: Well, we are so overjoyed to be joined by Anne Josephson. Anne has a BA from Barnard College and an M S E D in educational psychology from USC. And Anne is a three-time MTCA alumni mother. Um, as a human being, she's also president and CEO of JAG Gym, which is a gymnastics gym in LA, and we'll chat about some of her entrepreneurial awesomeness as well. But I do believe, I was looking back, I think you may be our only ever three-time alumni mother. We've had people do the process multiple times. We've had people do all the different we certainly have people have siblings and do it twice. Many people have done it twice, but I don't know if we've had A sort of three times. So amazing, and I can't wait to talk about all of this.

But aside from kind of like your Guinness World record of MTCA fame, that is uh your your three kids that have gone through the process. Um, I also am really excited, and I said this to you a little bit in in bringing you on, is just being talking about some of the your distance from the process. So many of our alumni parents who've come on so far have had recent experience and have tips and tricks, and and you know, they're going to know a more mature version of MTCA, a more specific version of this process. You're gonna know uh some different perspectives on it, but I really hope we can talk a little bit about just the life perspective of kids who are graduated and in the industry and out of the industry and all those different things in terms of life. Okay, do you feel prepared enough, gassed up from that bio? Are you ready to dive in?

[5:49] Anne Josephson: I'm totally ready to dive in. And I can't wait.

[6:39] Charlie Murphy: Okay, so before we dive into all your kind of wisdom and perspectives in terms of your your kids, would you give everyone like a 60-second, you know, Anne Josephson's childhood up to college? Just what like your kind of journey in terms of terms of relationship with theater and your relationship with gymnastics. I'd love to come here you.

[6:55] Anne Josephson: Okay, sure. Um so I have zero background in theater. Um, I cannot sing. If I put a tune in a bucket and carried it, it would not stay. We'll be putting that to the test later today, don't you?

[7:10] Charlie Murphy: Oh, yeah, that that might terrify everybody.

[7:12] Anne Josephson: Um, it might bring the cats out to join me, however. Um, I got into theater because my oldest daughter, Samara, when she was three, I took her to see a children's production of The Wizard of Oz. And she said right after she saw it, I want to sign up and do this class. And I said, Well, you have to be five, honey. You're not yet five. And we never talked really about it again. On the morning of her fifth birthday, she marched down the stairs and said, I'm five today, sign me up for that class. Yep. So off we went. We signed her up for the class and she started doing youth theater, and she did that all through her um childhood, as did her three other siblings. Um one of them pivoted out at about second grade and went into gymnastics and um regular school, and and that was her thing. So I I was one out of the performing arts, but three this is what we call the black sheep of the family, the ones.

[8:08] Charlie Murphy: Exactly, exactly.

[8:08] Anne Josephson: So now she makes more money than all of us combined, so it's fine.

[8:11] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, exactly. She can support but sh so um, so yeah, and then when it came time for college, I grew to love musical theater, by the way, at this point. Um, would take the kids to New York a lot. Since I'd gone to school there, I had a lot of friends. We would go, we'd see shows. Um didn't really think about it in terms of like this is where my kids are gonna go for college um at all. And then probably about Samara's sophomore junior year, she started talking about like, well, what if I wanted to do this in college? And so I said, Oh my god, um, I need to find somebody to help us because I do not know, nor did her high school know how to manage this. So thank you.

[8:53] Charlie Murphy: And wait, we were that that process, and I wanna so but I want to pause you because I want to get into that and do an overview of of us as your kids are entering it. But I want to hear just a little bit because you're too nice and you're moving right on from yourself. You think of yourself as uninteresting, though of course you're not. But c can give me a just a little bit of your you're on my because you were into gymnastics.

[9:07] Anne Josephson: Oh, you get the master's. I'm just giving you a sense of who you are as a person.

[9:11] Charlie Murphy: Okay.

[9:11] Anne Josephson: I grew up um doing gymnastics. I coached and I judged it, did that all through college, left it behind in college, went off, moved to LA, um, worked for a little bit and then went back to school to get my master's degree in educational psychology. Um then I started to work in children's television.

[9:26] Charlie Murphy: Yep.

[9:29] Anne Josephson: Um, particularly I worked with Barney, the purple dinosaur. Thank God nobody can throw things at me since we're on a distant screen here.

[9:36] Charlie Murphy: Um, so I apologize if your children were addicted to it.

[9:40] Anne Josephson: Um, but I I did that and then um got married, had kids, and when I was pregnant with my fourth child, I was coming back from a flight um from Florida to LA, a red eye. My then husband and I exchanged the children in the airport because he had to go on a business trip. And at that point I was like, I something's gotta give. Like, we can't live like this. So I stayed home then with my kids until my son went to kindergarten.

[10:07] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, he went to kindergarten.

[10:09] Anne Josephson: I was like, what am I gonna do now? Am I gonna go back to TV? Am I gonna try something else? Um, and at the time my youngest daughter was in gymnastics, and the gym she was at, I did not like. They were like a great gym, but they were really mean to the kids, and I kept arguing with the owner of like, this isn't how you teach kids, you don't shout at them. She's five, like, could you please stop shouting at her? And long story short, the woman said to me, Well, if you think you know better, just go open your own gym. And I was like, Hold my beer.

[10:36] Charlie Murphy: Tell me to write the kids like my beer.

[10:39] Anne Josephson: Yeah, exactly. Um, so I did, and fast forward twenty-two years later from there, I run probably what is the largest uh gymnastics school in California. One of the largest in the country and it's fun.

[10:54] Charlie Murphy: And and I think I I'm gonna uh editorialize here to say what is in some one of the ways I think we connected and especially in the early founding of MTCA is that I think a a a similarly heart centered um gym and and philosophy to MTCA in terms of I think it's one of the reasons we're like we're really connected and so we'll maybe come back and talk a little bit about some some of the jag of it all and the entrepreneurship and your in mission vision and some of those things. But okay, I want to make sure you had a little bona fides established as we now talk about you uh entering this process uh in in triplicate not quite in in in four but in in triplicate. So can as the time Samara's now you said sophomore year thinks starting to think about college you were pretty ahead of the game starting to think about this.

Can you give us a state of your kids and their various interests in in theater um I think I could do the years and separation but I'm not a hundred percent sure I'd get the you know you have a uh at this point an 18 year old 16 year old a 14 year old a Samara's the oldest um she's typical oldest kid like perfect grades um perfect everything like very type A and she wanted a school that would balance both academics and musical theater and it was a real struggle for her because she did was admitted to Barnard um had a h really hard time like do I turn that down in order to go to NYU which was the other school that she was admitted to that she was most interested in.

[11:33] Anne Josephson: She decided to go to NYU, um, thinking that she would be able to pursue academics and musical theater. Um, I'll get into that later. It was a little bit not as much as she had hoped.

[12:29] Charlie Murphy: Um not as much as you hope.

[12:31] Anne Josephson: She didn't get to do that.

[12:32] Charlie Murphy: Not as bad.

[12:33] Anne Josephson: She didn't get to do as much academics as she had hoped.

[12:35] Charlie Murphy: Um, next, do you want to move on to the next kid?

[12:39] Anne Josephson: No, though I I wanted to do we're gonna go through all of it. But give me a little bit of what you remember, and it's fine. I know it's a long time ago, so only what you can remember of Samara's audition journey.

[12:49] Anne Josephson: So your fourth time process.

[12:52] Anne Josephson: Yeah, I I would say with Samara, I would probably try to hold up and contest if anybody has spent more money in time in MTCA than than we did with Samara.

[13:03] Charlie Murphy: You're about to get some calls, Anne Josephson, your part.

[13:06] Anne Josephson: Some people checking receipts with you.

[13:09] Anne Josephson: Yeah, because I so did not know what I was doing, and it was my first kid, and I was so absolutely clueless. And I very graciously had, you know, you and Ellen and Leo and Adria, um Telly, like all of these really wonderful mentors to my daughter who really helped her out and really helped her, you know, get her feet under her.

[13:31] Anne Josephson: Um Samara is uh also a little bit shyer than I would say my other kids, so she needed a lot of um that encouragement and that support and and needed to feel over prepared.

[13:43] Anne Josephson: So, you know, we just went with it. Um, in terms of her audition process, it was fun. You know, she we did Unified's both in New York and we did New York, Chicago, and LA. First child. You're one of the first who did that. That's now not that uncommon, but you that was uncommon in your day. Yeah, so we did all of those. Um, and she did a couple of on-campus ones. I'm trying to I don't and why you're gonna sense you remember about how many schools she totally she did in total. I want to say she probably uh uh did about 14 or 15 schools, which I know now is not that much, but back then it felt like back then that's a lot. Well, this is a this is before pre-screens, right? Samara wouldn't have done any pre-screens.

Or would she have done no, not even not even not even like Michigan had one yet? No. Um, you know, this is an era of MTCA also where you were paying us by check. You know, we had very different I mean it's just in terms of even the systems of MTCA's guidance, it was much more individualized mentorship than we have a little bit more process and blah blah, which they all know that's that's important to them. But no, and we did we flew to New York a lot to do things live. I mean we did some things. She did some things via Zoom, but but we were not even by Zoom, via Skype back in the day. Oh, it's probably yes, right. Yeah, but that's right. A little bit virtually, but yeah, we're doing mix there.

Okay, so she ends up NYU. We'll pin Samara a little bit, and then let's talk about A B. So this is child number two. Do you remember now? It's one of the things I think which is uh a compliment I will throw at you, which um will strike me so differently now being a father, but like I just remember thinking even as a very young very young coach to uh your children of just like how impressive it was how different you treated all of your kids. They're absolutely different kids. They're different. But you recognize I remember you telling me that, and I was like, Yeah, of course they're different. But I was like, Oh, it's actually not every parent that can recognize. I have three very different individual human beings, and they're gonna need different like they all had different coaching teams, they all had different like, but like you were like they're gonna use MTCA, but we're all gonna use it really differently and have different guides.

So that's just a compliment authority, but but do you remember what conscious adjustments you're making? Some of them probably to A B's individualism, but was there anything of like having gone through the process that you're like, all right, now I realize I'm gonna do this process a little different in take two? Yes, I think so. I think with with A B well thing one, I felt a little bit more confident that I understood how this all worked. I also really did understand the absolute randomness of how these things go down. I mean there's we say subjectivity, but fine randomness. Oh but oh it's completely random. These people are random. I mean, like they're people you don't know what they ate for lunch that day, if they were in a good mood or bad mood.

I mean, it it is so subjective, you're right. It's not an objective metric of good actor, bad actor. I mean, yeah, dance and singing a little bit more objective, but the artistic I like this one and don't like this one, you go, uh w okay. Well why yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Also, you know, my kids had all had very, very different looks, so their types were extremely different. Yeah. Um, Samara was the, you know, all American girl next door. A B was the more edgy, um sarcastic, really funny kind of person. Uh beautiful, but funny. Um, and then we'll get to Miles later because he's a whole other story. Um, so for A B, A B was not um particularly in love with school. She she did fine enough in school, but she wasn't academics really weren't her thing.

Um, she auditioned far fewer schools because she really just wanted to be in New York. Yeah. Um, she did not get into NYU early, which she did NYU early decision, if I remember. So she was really like, you know, devastated at that, or maybe I was devastated. I think she was fine. Um, but then she so she ended up going to Pratt, uh 'cause she also is an artist, and so she did that. She was only there a semester. Um, she didn't like it. She wanted to drop out. We allowed her to drop out under the caveat that she would take some acting classes and then reapply to college, um to like the new school or something, and so she did. Um, and she applied to the school, she was admitted, but then she also got signed by representation, yeah, and she started auditioning and was doing extremely well.

Like she was it was between her and the woman who got supergirl. Um, and the only reason why she didn't get it was she was too young, and so she had like a lot of really, really you know, not success where she signed and got money, but success where we were like, Okay, this is working, and she was like, I just want to keep going with this. And some real success. Uh you mean I don't know the timing exactly, but you know, what is it? How I met your father, she was on the stuff. And yeah, she she ultimately um she got some pilots that didn't get picked up, she did some commercials, whatever, but her biggest one was she got how I met your father. Um, and then unfortunately COVID hit and then the show was canceled.

Yeah. Um, so that sucks. But you know, that's show business, baby. Um, and you know, she's still auditioning a ton. Um still in the industry and and now doing comedy and seems like yeah, she does stand up comedy, she hosts comedy shows, she um she's she's extraordinarily creative, she makes clothes, she you know, has an Etsy store, like she does all of these other little things on the side, but acting is still her her first love. She's writing also too, but but acting is really her first love, and um she has the ability to be told no ten thousand times and it's the superpower that all actors need. And honestly, it is it is. It I mean, not that it doesn't hurt because it does. Like, you know, there's times like obviously she gets disappointed and you know, but she has that thing.

And she honestly has the thing of there is nothing else she wants to do. Yeah. You know, Samar had phenomenal talent. Eight million things else that she was also willing to do. She worked in production after graduation, she ended up going to law school, she worked in entertainment law. Like she just, you know, had other interests. A B's interest is this. This is what she wants to do. So she's still plugging at it. Yeah. Wait, so slight pin in that because I want to talk about Samara's especially uh after school life too, in terms of getting up to today and all those things. But amazing. So so two already very different children, very different school experiences in terms of one going to a real university, the very liberal arts about as liberal as you can while still getting a BFA, one going basically let's say conservatory style, even though not all of it was directly to the the acting and singing of it all, because some of it you're talking about design, but then really just taking acting classes and not gonna end up graduating school.

So two whole wholly different experiences. All right, can we get to let's get to Miles on your third children? Okay, so Miles, um Miles is transgender, and when he started the process, he was still presenting as a girl. Yeah. Um so he was admitted, he went through the the audition process, quote, as a girl. Yeah. Um he didn't come out until right before he went to college. Yeah. So is that true for you, timing wise too? That uh Miles had not yet come out to you before to the family? Okay, yeah. I wasn't sure about that time. Because I think it was basically early college when it became public, or at least that was. It was right before he left for college that he he was public. And so um he went to pace uh at the time Amy Rogers was in charge of the program.

She could not have been more supportive or more wonderful with um Miles's entire transition and but it it went from you know part of me this is really like maybe not politically correct to say I'm like dude why didn't you audition as a boy? You would have gotten in to all the places your chances a little bit better. Yeah exactly um of course I think pace and especially pace at that moment a particularly great place for Miles in terms of yes it was and this is an era of say um we had a really really really great experience auditioning at at Carnegie Mellon where they were very very honest with him. They were like we love you we don't know what to do with you. We're not the right school for you.

Yeah. And I respected that so much um to the point that I actually wrote to them after this was all done and Miles was settled and thanked them like that that what good people they were to not just take my kid because they thought he was talented um when they knew that it wasn't going to be the right program and that pace was going to be the right program for him. And it was it was a great program for him. Um I was gonna ask that about that the the experience with Amy Rogers was positive for you and got school yeah amazing yeah I mean everything from like at that time pace didn't have a gender neutral bathroom on camp on in the forming arts building they built one for him um they were they were really really terrific.

I mean were there a couple of uh people along the way who weren't so great of course but overall, the people in leadership were wonderful. Yeah, I mean, and I won't make you, you know, comment on sort of the larger um all the issues surrounding pace and and Amy, but I do think it it is worth noting in that conversation what what was true at the time that Amy was a on the cutting edge of these conversations. I mean, Amy is the reason that pronouns are were added to resumes. I mean, we started adding it to our resume template after Amy was like, everyone should be doing this, everyone will be doing this in five years. Two years later, everyone else was doing it. Like Amy really was helping lead.

It's not that long ago that this was a very odd and unusual thing in the sort of general of an actor, but even in the teeth world. I could be wrong. Um, but I think Miles was one of the first transgender musical theater students that was open and out. You know, and he now there are definitely many more, and he mentors a lot of them. But um it is it was you know, they were all kind of just trying to figure this out as as we went along, and including like, you know, I mean, the things that are very gendered, like dance classes, you know, like explaining that no, he's he's not going to be showing up in girl dance clothes, he's going to be showing up in men dance clothes. You know, and and there were there were some issues about that.

Um, but you know, we worked through it and and they were great, and you know, you can't you can't blame people for what they didn't know at the time. So there were some things that were really obtuse when you look back through today's lens of like, how did you not know this? But the truth was is they didn't know it. None of us knew it. We were all just trying to like figure it out as as we went along. I mean, Miles is somebody who operates from such grace too, in terms of that, which is very helpful in those conversations and helpful in in helping people help you. Um, is there anything in terms of your experience now? If you were going back, let's say Miles was now re auditioning for whatever reason you said you get it everywhere, but is there anything that you would do differently or consider differently in terms of you know, I just think about some of our parents of trans students, some of whom are are listeners, who, you know, when looking at colleges and maybe you were thinking this already um for Miles but of like I don't know how successful you'd be in the South I don't know how successful you'd be in the people a hundred percent I mean and I mean look there's a lot of you know without digging into the politics of everything there's a lot of things to think about of you know if you're sending your daughter to a school where she might not have certain rights um if you're reproductively or whatever like that there there are a lot of things to think about and yes I did think about very carefully um I really wanted Miles in a place where I knew that there was support um New York made a lot of sense because he had uh siblings there were also I mean honestly if I'm being really candid there were adults like you and Ellen and Leo like he had a support system if something went funny there were there were grown ups he could call um and I'm a very big believer in community at that community really matters so yeah it was it was a pretty much foregone conclusion that he was going to go to school in New York if I could make that happen.

[25:49] Charlie Murphy: I love it. Okay so then just looking back at the three processes, you know, again as one of someone who's a a rare example of having gone through the process three times is there anything that you feel like you you learned in the third version or you know if you had to do it a fourth time that you would now be like man I really see going through this process as X, Y, and Z like what what what is your perspective just having gone through three times?

[26:12] Anne Josephson: You know, my perspective is I'm sorry my dog is barking. Oh, the little dog, yeah. Good. Yes, she has things that she'd like to say. Um, my perspective is is I think that as much as I'd like to say, I think I would be like much more calm. I don't know that I would be. I mean, like, it's your kid. They're they're 17, you know, navigating something, and as much as people want to be like, oh, it's their process and they have to navigate it. They're 17 and you're about to spend, you know, a quarter of a million dollars on education. Not with MTCA, to be clear. Not a she's not a good thing. Yeah, no. No, with MCA. Not education, yes. It's a huge yeah, and and you still are their parent. They're still they still are children. Um, and you you do need to be involved. That's my opinion. Maybe it's an unpopular one, but um it and it's a family decision because you're taking family resources and family energy and putting it towards this.

[27:09] Anne Josephson: So I think I would still be very involved. Yes. I definitely think by the time I got to Miles, I took all of this much less personally. Yes. Like, you know, when Samar didn't get into a school, I was like, those bastards, how could they not want my baby, you know? And now I just realize like I really came to realize look, they only have X spots. They're looking for X, Y, and Z. Right. You're searching for a fit, you're searching for a fit. Exactly. We're certain yeah, it's about fit, it's about you know, but it also could be like if they knew that they had already six girls in their upper class that were blonde haired, green eyed, and five feet tall, which is what describes Samara, there's not a space for her.

You know, I mean they don't need that. That's not what they're looking for. Um doesn't matter how good she is or she isn't, like that's just the way it goes. And you know, a lot of this is like, you know, having I mean, I went through the situation where everything from where like Samara was an excellent kid, excellent student, whatever, but she was very much middle of the road, if I'm being really candid. Love her to death. But she was she was great, like she was really, really good at everything, but she didn't have something that really stood out. On the flip side, by the time we got to Miles, Miles had a lot more quirk and interest to him. And you know, and so I went through the thing of where like he did get exceptions on the spot and he did have and and that was also overwhelming. Like, like it's all just emotionally hard. Everything's hard. Please get a therapist.

[28:46] Charlie Murphy: Well, so we started this conversation off before we start recording about all the different kinds of therapy we're in. Um, but you're the it is, I mean, it's it's one of those things we've been talking a lot about with discovery recently and how you try to discover who you are and that you're taking these journeys. You know, specificity is a really helpful tool in this if you are a more specific person versus I mean, you said middle of the road for Samara. It's it's also something that I feel like you can't force. I mean, it has to be authentic to yourself. You can't just be like, I'm gonna dye my hair blue because this is who I am or whatever. You know there has to be some element of like, is this true to your is this coming from a core of who you actually are?

But certainly I do think yeah, going through this process and feeling like somebody where you're like, well, I either know what to do with you, or to cut the point of Carnegie Mellon going, you're so interesting. I'm not sure we're equipped at this moment to deal with you. I think it's I'm impressed by the maturity of that was a much older faculty at Carnegie Mellon. Actually, wonder how they would respond right now with Rick Edinger, who's a trans head of the program, that in some ways like maybe we're having more. It's a completely different experience. But yes, it was a very I mean, they had been your teachers. Like they were really they were getting long in the tooth. But and also, but but because of Miles's specificity, they were able to say it's a yes or it's a no, and I know that, versus sometimes it's hard if you if you feel like you're a really good student and you're doing everything right, but you're not actually extraordinary or messy in some way or something that is we go, I don't what do I it's that that specific specifically.

[30:08] Anne Josephson: Yeah, and and what was very, very kind and very sweet is they wanted him to know it isn't that you're not good enough to be here. Like it's just we don't know what to do with you. And that was a tricky thing for them to say. They didn't have to say anything, they just could have sent the rejection letter. Um, and I really really did appreciate that that they you know, because also Miles was Miles did high school in three years, so he was doing this process at 16. Yeah, yeah. Um, and they recognized that too, and they were like, you know, really didn't want to crush him. Um because he that was his first choice. I mean, he wanted to go there so badly. Um but you know, it worked out. I'm glad it worked out. Okay, and we're not gonna speak of Carissa the black sheep who didn't do FTCA at all, right? We're not gonna be able to do that. Yeah, no, no, she just graduated from Georgetown Law and she's she's uh doing litigation, killing everybody, yeah.

[31:00] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. Um okay, let's take a short break, and on the back end, we're gonna unpin some of those pins. I want to get a little deeper into their life and career. Um and we'll, I don't know, silence your dog or whatever we have to do.

[31:10] Anne Josephson: Okay, we're back with the amazing Anne Josephson. Um and we're gonna unpin some of those. So we've sort of pinned like they all went to school to set to varying degrees. They're all gonna enter the industry. And now let's talk about where those four children are in the world today. We could even talk about Chris if you want to, in terms of you know the amazing success. But they're in and out of the business. We're we're gonna you highlight that Samara is no longer in the industry, right? In terms of um, she was for a bit. Um, she did, like I mentioned, she did production, then she went to law school, she did entertainment law for a little bit, um really decided she it wasn't for her, went back to school again, yay.

[31:48] Charlie Murphy: Um, and wait, went back to school after law school?

[31:51] Anne Josephson: Uh-huh. Oh, yeah. Well, I don't think I realized that. She's like Pokemon card, she's collecting them all.

[31:55] Charlie Murphy: Oh, hell yeah.

[31:56] Anne Josephson: Um, but yeah, no, she went back to the to uh school to become a therapist. And so she is now a therapist. She also just she also is a new mom.

[32:04] Charlie Murphy: I was just gonna say it's had my first grandchild.

[32:08] Anne Josephson: It's so like it is so uh that is a weird thing to me. And Samara's not the first. We've had uh number of kids, a number of I say kids, but kids who've had kids, um of our students who have had kids, and you know, Lisi was one of my first students who's one of our coaches who just had a baby last month. I mean, it's just it's great. Congratulations, grandma.

[32:26] Charlie Murphy: Amazing.

[32:26] Anne Josephson: Um the good news, Charlie, she's 10 months old and she can sing.

[32:33] Charlie Murphy: That is a good all right.

[32:34] Anne Josephson: So you're gonna be the four-time MTCA lover.

[32:36] Charlie Murphy: Oh, yeah, so the next one grandma coming back coming.

[32:38] Anne Josephson: Yeah, she likes to sing, she likes to dance, she doesn't like to do much else. Uh I love it. Well, she got some time to figure it all out. Um, we're gonna start coaching soon.

[32:47] Charlie Murphy: Oh, sorry, sorry.

[32:48] Anne Josephson: So yeah, we'll have to have to get it another division for for the toddlers. Um, I'd love to hear kind of just from your perspective, and again, because like you know, when we look at the stats this year many years out, the fact that two out of three of your kids are still pursuing acting is uh actually unusual. It's much more you graduated BFA, it's less than half of students five, ten years out are still actively pursuing this industry, right?

[33:11] Anne Josephson: I do think to some extent it was a kind of an unlock for me when I realized that of you know, when we started doing this, I thought my job is to get these kids into the most competitive programs they would, and then I sort of evolved into the program that's the right fit for them, but still toward success in the industry. It really became an unlock when I was like, Well, what I'm really doing is helping them discover their collegiate fit and then their life fit for whatever they might end up doing, all those different paths, and many of our students end up not pursuing. I do think our parent listeners, who a lot of people are gonna listen to this episode are gonna be parents, they're gonna uh understand my child might not end up being a professional actor. I look at these stats and I look, it's they might do that for a bit and then do something else, or might immediately do something else. I guess I'd love to hear it.

[33:52] Charlie Murphy: With all of us, right?

[33:54] Anne Josephson: I mean, yeah. Life is long if we're lucky, and we're gonna have multiple careers. There's going to be different iterations of every single career we have. Um, you know, the irony is is like Samara recently um went back to the stage for the very first time. She was in a production at a local church of uh the Christmas Carol, and it was it was her and like a bunch of people in their 70s and 80s, and it was the cutest thing in the world. Um, you know, and she she loved it. It turned out that her music director from high school was the music director at this church, and that's how she ended up getting involved and doing it. And and it was great. It was wonderful to see her up on stage again and just doing what she loved, and she was brilliant, and it was really, really cool.

[34:42] Charlie Murphy: Um so there's all sorts of ways that that you know these things can come back around to.

[34:50] Anne Josephson: That's so true. And it's so funny, it's like it is maybe not unique to this industry, but it is specific to this industry, the sort of shame surrounding the idea of like, well, I guess you didn't cut it, you didn't make it. When I'm like, I played college-level baseball, and then now my baseball is I play in the Broadway Show League. Like, that's how like that I still get to play. I love I'm never gonna love the sport. Did I end up making it my profession? No, very few do. And most people don't view that as a failure in the same way that people will sort of there's shame surrounding of oh, I guess you couldn't hack it. You couldn't you didn't cut it, you know. I I d we we do that to ourselves in this industry sometimes. I majored in history in college. I don't do anything.

[35:25] Charlie Murphy: You're gonna do another one with history.

[35:27] Anne Josephson: No. I mean, in fact, just other than watching it repeat, um, I'm not doing a whole lot of anything with it. So I I think that just because a kid goes to school for acting theater, musical theater, whatever, it it there shouldn't be any shame that they might pivot. They're they're choosing this when they're 17 and 18 years old.

[35:48] Charlie Murphy: Yes.

[35:49] Anne Josephson: Well, and without giving you too much of a leading question, you know, we we so often on the pod talk about this idea of transferable skills. I wonder maybe specifically for Samara, like, how do you see because I pitch it as like, hey, I think this is true. This is why you should feel comfortable sending your kid to a BFA, even when you look at these numbers to go, man, you can use this as a lawyer and as a therapist and all these other things. So w how do you see some of the college level acting training as as potentially helpful for her?

[36:16] Anne Josephson: None of my kids are afraid to public speak. Not one of them. They're all absolutely comfortable getting up in front of, you know, whether it's a church group, a parent group, uh at their job in court, whatever, they're all very comfortable with that.

[36:30] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[36:31] Anne Josephson: Um they find different ways to use those skills. Like, for example, one of the things that Miles does is he sings at a nursing home for people with Alzheimer's weekly. Because he know because it pays they had to learn all the old standards. So he has the 2020s and the 2030 music down. And it turns out, you know, music is one of the last things that goes in and people who have cognitive decline. And so going in and singing those old songs with them, um yeah makes them so happy, makes him so happy because he's up there and he's getting to perform. Uh-huh. Um you know and I just think about the amount of good that he's doing by doing that and I'm like that's amazing. And that's because he had a BFA where he had to learn all those old songs.

[37:17] Charlie Murphy: Yep.

[37:18] Anne Josephson: Um I wanna s before we I want to have more about this, but uh unpin because you mentioned hey Samar's experience with NYU not being as uh educationally exciting to her 'cause it should kind of get us up to the college level. Well you know, what was that experience in terms of is it just that she wanted more total academics than she got?

[37:34] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, yeah, she did.

[37:35] Anne Josephson: And you know, the way that the prerequisites for certain classes were that you know she didn't and she had a very specific schedule as they do at NYU where they have to be with their cohort doing their thing. She wasn't able to necessarily get into those classes because she came up with pre-rec and so on and so forth. Um I think for Samara I think for any kid that's really academic, which obviously she is given all of the degree she's gone on to get it is it is a hard sell. It is a hard like I know schools want to say oh they'll have plenty of time to do academics. The truth is is they don't.

[38:10] Charlie Murphy: Right.

[38:10] Anne Josephson: Um the BFA is really demanding. And NYU may be the most so of any BFA school. I mean in terms of their the their bill meaning they do have more room than some other BFAs but still within the BFA standard it's not a BA. It's not it's never gonna no no it is absolutely not BA. Do you think if she could go back she would have gotten a BA would she just done a BA theater or something like that?

[38:30] Charlie Murphy: No, I think it again. I she and I talk about it a lot. I think she needed to do this. I think she would have always wondered what if. Um if we hadn't. And you know, in our family, we have a saying, change one thing, change everything. Happy with her life. If she changed it, who knows what would have happened, you know. I mean, that it's okay. This was her experience. It was and it was yeah, and there were things about it that were great. I mean, she's made some of her closest friends, like that she still sees all the time, and you know, so I mean, college is is about so many things. It's not just about what you're learning, it's about who you make you know, meet for the rest of your life to become your tribe.

[39:08] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, I I wonder, and and so uh yeah, I'm sort of transitioning into the idea of like, yeah, the the life skills that you pick up in this, but and then also some of your mission behind JAG and some of the sort of things that that you do. How how do you see, you know, when you talk about now that longer lens of what they've developed and like what the skills are that you've needed as a human being and they need it as a human being. The things you you help for for your kids. How do you or for your kids meaning your students, your your JAG students? How do you sort of see the the theatrical training fitting into that or yes, how how what what are the things you go under?

[39:40] Anne Josephson: I see it very clearly. So one one of the very um things I'm very passionate about in with JAG is we're spending time with these kids, these athletes, the especially the ones that are most, you know, dedicated, they're with us 20 hours a week. Um who we are and how we treat them, we're very much helping develop their self identity and their self worth. And it's so much more than gymnastics. You know, they're gonna stop eventually, they're gonna do the last back handspring at some point, but they're gonna go on and be people. Um I have to say, and this is not a um sappy plug for MTCA, it is a genuine plug. The adult mentors that came into my children's life, I'm like gonna cry were incredible. Um so lucky to have had you all be a small part of my kids growing up.

[40:54] Anne Josephson: Um yeah, just such good people. Um I think one of my parenting philosophies has always been I can't do this all on my own. I need a really, really strong village. And MTCA has been and continues to be part of our really strong village. I mean, Samara graduated from high school in 2011. It's 2026, and I'm sitting here having this conversation. You thought to call me, you know, and say, hey, would you do this? Like, and that I'm so honored that I get to, but it's amazing. It's an amazing organization. You guys are killing it. Um, you're doing so much more for kids than just getting them into college. I mean, thank you for sending that. That's so gratifying to hear, and I mean, it is the way that I feel like I now view my child's education.

I mean, like, yes, I care about the math, right now we're worried about the learning to read and the math and four-year-old. Um, but I do think about that of like what kind of person are you gonna develop into and who will be the mentors in her life. I mean, uh I was telling Marcus recently, Marcus is one of our newer coaches, becomes a huge part of our leadership team. Actually, I shouldn't know if Marcus might have been there when Miles joined. Maybe Mark sort of just joined around that. Um, but you know, he was sort of trying out this philosophy thing. He's like, Hey, I think our job isn't just to get kids into school, it's like to prepare them for day one of school. And I was like, yes, and it's also like, at least I think it's not just day one of school, but the next 50 years of their life and their career.

And, you know, if we're doing that self-discovery thing, right, then we may help them discover that acting's not for them. And, you know, we're not gonna actively do that to a 17-year-old of like get out, but we're helping lay that foundational discovery moment that can snowball into school and all these other things. And you know, it does feel like sometimes some of that vision stuff, like you hear companies say that, and it's like, just yeah, just sell me the Coca-Cola or whatever it is. That is not necessarily that every mission or vision, but I feel like we get to do that. And maybe you get a little bit of that experience with Jag too of like we really do get to spend some vulnerable, intimate moments with it feels like an awesome responsibility at times to be like, oh, this is a moment for you, and you choosing this path and choosing how you're gonna navigate this rejection or do that.

It's sort of a you can feel really big. I mean, look, I'm very fond of saying I'm the job of helping kids grow up. I happen to use gymnastics for it. And this is the meaning of the no, and all of that said, I'm an incredibly competitive person. I want to win this podcast. I don't know how I win, but I want to win it.

[43:23] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, you're doing it, whatever you're doing, you're doing it.

[43:30] Anne Josephson: And being humane in the process of trying to get excellence. And I think that that is also something MTCA is consistently from, you know, back in the early days that I was there doing it, applauded every kid no matter what school they got into. There was no hierarchy of these are the starbelly snitches and they're the special kids because they got into the, you know, one of the top five schools or whatever. Everybody was celebrated. Um, and you know we've also all been in this long enough to know a lot of times the kid that went to quote the lowest ranked school is the one who's friggin' working now you know and the kids that went to the top schools aren't working like you just don't know that's right if the journey is long.

[44:15] Charlie Murphy: Alright we have to exit the crying portion and the complimenting MTCA portion because it's too much. It's overwhelming me. Can you do a little bit of can we talk about you know for A B and Miles who are still actively pursuing this business. You know I mentioned that idea of I think both now are a comedy is part of their life which is not something I of course in hilarious but yeah more for A B than for Miles Miles does comedy just to is a way to like keep himself again busy and active A B it does it a lot more.

[44:43] Anne Josephson: And more from a professional perspective of like I think she does so she does stand up um which is you know you think acting's hard man's stand up is brutal. In an industry that I don't think people really understand how how you get into I mean there now exist these like comedic art programs a couple of them that exist for at the college level but I don't most people who are successful standups do not have a degree in it. Most people that you went to like what they do is they go from show to show to show to show every night grinding and sweating Brooklyn and in Manhattan and you know sometimes they're doing shows for like three people in the audience um you know who might not really be their uh typical audience you know so I mean A A B is a lesbian um so a lot of her jokes are around being lesbians and a lot of times she'll be sitting there doing these jokes for people who that's not their cover exists.

[45:37] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, yeah.

[45:38] Anne Josephson: So um so builds a lot of character. Um and I think that again it has just made her really fearless in auditions. Like she she's just able to go into an audition now and whatever. It doesn't matter because at least nobody's gonna throw something at her in an audition.

[45:55] Charlie Murphy: Yeah totally. I I guess I wonder and I you know I've tried to describe this angle as it's it's maybe just like one kind of uh un unveiling or unlitting for me of like the industry as a whole that like you know when you go to acting school musical theater school you think like Broadway and you think TV and film and agents and pilots and then I guess I I'm wondering like what AB's perspective and and Miles' perspective is on the like what is quote unquote the business when you you know when you see stand up comedians getting pilots and then you see people who didn't go to school at all and then you see the people who went to Michigan and go have the Broadway show that that happens in in the musical theater world and then you like and also especially today and this is where I had that sort of perspective going huh 15 years ago or 20 years ago you know that it's it's it's a different experience now of like what is the internet and what is a Netflix show and what is it who so I guess I'm I'm wondering like how how are they per s sort of thinking of pers pursuing the industry in that way now.

[46:53] Anne Josephson: I think both of them have a pretty good attitude of you know whoever will pay me to do this art I will go to. You know like they um they're not terribly precious about it. Miles is definitely still more of a theater guy. Um that and more recently out of school too more recently graduated right right before COVID right 2020 no during COVID he graduated by himself in his apartment in Brooklyn. It's the saddest thing in the world.

[47:17] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[47:17] Anne Josephson: Oh my gosh.

[47:18] Charlie Murphy: MTCA 2015 means yeah 20 2020.

[47:21] Anne Josephson: Yeah exactly yeah yeah and he didn't uh he also didn't get to showcase which was a really really hard thing. I mean talk about both of your but both of your kids pursuing it TV show done showcase gone. I mean and you know my wife at the time was in a Tony nominated show and was that was canceled. You're like this it's really it's robbed a lot of people from and then you got yeah then you have the writer strike and all I mean it it it's been a challenge for sure.

[47:46] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[47:47] Anne Josephson: Um but I I think that you know neither of them are huge fans of commercials. Both of them have done them because they do pay well but that that is probably the one thing that they both are like but other than that they're kind of open to whatever.

[48:03] Charlie Murphy: Yeah it's it commercials there's a specific thing that is being commoditized that can feel kind of gross. I mean it's just like literally something you go in you're like it is just about what size I am basically it's like you're looking for height and weight because I'm like there's all these different versions of me at pull pull up on me, pull out on me, pull in on me. Like it's just like wow okay interesting uh yeah I mean of course that's what the product is in in some ways it's very interesting thing to have your body be the product whereas at least we can tell ourselves even though it's true in theater that to some extent our bodies and our voices are the product but it can it's our soul and our artistry is in there too but with commercials sometimes you're like not a lot of artistry in soul it's mostly no and it yeah it's like your meat you know like meat literally meat yeah that's hard.

[48:48] Anne Josephson: Um any other big advice I mean uh uh you came on this call and the first thing I said was oh my god you look younger than the day I I met you and you said uh it's so nice having kids out of school you know so many of our our listeners will have kids who are still in school for our parent listeners. I guess what is the advice? How do you get to four adult children? How do we get to that place um so I will be very honest with you.

[49:16] Anne Josephson: Parenting adults is way harder than parenting toddlers.

[49:20] Charlie Murphy: Um because at least with toddlers, you're telling me it gets harder than this?

[49:23] Anne Josephson: How dare you uh yeah, it only gets harder with uh than this and more expensive.

[49:27] Charlie Murphy: So it's it's really it's double whammy fantastic.

[49:30] Anne Josephson: Um they can get more expensive than the New York school system as we look at private schools.

[49:34] Charlie Murphy: But okay, can't you do that?

[49:35] Anne Josephson: Yes, well that's fair, but it it gets different expensive, I suppose. Um, yeah, I I mean my kids are all really great kids. I I'm not trying to, you know, but they're kids and they are they have flaws and they they have um times where they're making enough money where they can support themselves and times where they don't. And my attitude has been as long as I can help them, um, I will. I will continue to try to help them and to chase down their dreams, whatever their dreams are, uh, as long as they're making a concerted effort to to do it. Um so you know, our rule is every audition you get, you take, you do it. I don't I'm not interested in like, oh, I don't really want to do that, like no, no, you're doing it. This is your job. Your job is to audition it. And and they're they get it. They they put up with it.

[50:22] Charlie Murphy: Um, but I also, you know, have to step back at this point and like they have their own lives, they have partners, they have, you know, other goals too. And so I just am trying to, you know, sit back and watch and be supportive and be the cheerleader.

[50:40] Anne Josephson: Um and not get it.

[50:42] Charlie Murphy: How do you think you did it the how do you think you did it keeping those threads?

[50:45] Anne Josephson: I mean, you're so so in my mind as of 20, whatever I was at the time, so impressed by the way you really uh these are th three different human beings and three different experiences. How do you how does that translate into adulthood while they I guess own more of their own?

[50:58] Anne Josephson: I I continue with the same thing. There, these are different all of my kids are different, they all need different things. Um that, you know, equity and equality are two different things, you know.

[51:09] Charlie Murphy: So sometimes, like, yeah, my kids that are acting do get a little bit more financial support.

[51:14] Anne Josephson: Or my daughter who now has a child gets some more financial support because she now has a child and needs help with, you know, a nanny or whatever, so she can go to work. Like and sometimes they don't like that. Sometimes they they, you know, like, well, that's not fair. And I'm like, you know, fairness is a process, it's not a result, and the process is we help each other as we need it.

[51:37] Charlie Murphy: And only more complicated when you add in children to the mix when you had grandchildren of going, well, why are you getting double this?

[51:43] Anne Josephson: And why are they getting extra presents?

[51:45] Charlie Murphy: And yeah, yeah, exactly.

[51:46] Anne Josephson: You know, but at the same time, everybody has what they need, which is the thing that I always point out to them. I'm like, look, yeah, y'all have what you need. Now it's the once we'll talk about.

[51:57] Charlie Murphy: But yeah.

[51:57] Anne Josephson: But it it it's um I mean, if your child is going to be an artist, you are most likely going to have to be providing them some kind of support, whether it's financial or a lot of emotional support of this is hard. Because it is, it's really, really hard. And it's really expensive to live in these cities. I mean, New York City, I think you open your eyes and it's it's an automatic a hundred dollars gets withdrawn from your bank account. Like it that's just how it works.

[52:25] Charlie Murphy: Like each day you're alive.

[52:26] Anne Josephson: I mean a minimum. That's the joke of uh, you know, when they added the uh I forget what it's what it's called, but the when you drive into the city, they it's like fifteen dollars or whatever. They're like, Well, well we've been living an hour. You just come you get off the subway trade and twenty bucks comes out of your wallet already. I don't know that it's already been happening.

[52:40] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, yeah.

[52:41] Anne Josephson: Um I love it. All right. Anything else we gotta hit we gotta hit the Lakers? Are they gonna stay pat of the trade deadline? What do we think?

[52:45] Charlie Murphy: This is a well end up with Giannis at the end of the day.

[52:49] Anne Josephson: I'm so grateful that the Dodger ownership has taken over. We are hoping some of the Dodger luck rubs off on the Lakers.

[52:55] Charlie Murphy: Except I don't think it's gonna be you know you can't spend like with the Dodgers they could just spend whatever they want to spend, right?

[53:00] Anne Josephson: With the NBA there's strictures and I don't think just pulling up in the pocketbook's gonna do it all yes but the Dodgers are also known in addition to spending they're a really great club to work for so if they can like elevate the Lakers to being the same kind of thing.

[53:14] Charlie Murphy: Like as much as people want to you know say nasty things about the Dodgers like they're good to their employees.

[53:20] Anne Josephson: Yeah.

[53:20] Charlie Murphy: People want to work well yeah and you already have the Laker brand I mean you're gonna end up with Giannis. I'm telling I'm we're recording this on January 30th.

[53:27] Anne Josephson: Uh with three days from now somehow it's gonna end up Luca and Giannis on the same team and it's gonna you guys are gonna take over the NBA.

[53:32] Charlie Murphy: That's what's gonna happen.

[53:33] Anne Josephson: How dare you from your lips to God's ears man I'm in. I'm still hoping for my warriors to end up with Giannis don't don't worry about me.

[53:39] Charlie Murphy: Um all right well we'll wrap there then once we start getting NBA basketball but half our listeners are like I'm done I'm out um anything you didn't get to hit anything else you want to add for current parents or things that you're thinking man I I wanted to come in today I wanna knew I wanted to say this about here's what you should think about just parents out there.

[53:55] Anne Josephson: I applaud you all um this is a really hard process for you too this is your baby being completely vulnerable being judged um it's gonna make you a little unhinged and that's normal.

[54:09] Anne Josephson: Uh and I just you know want you to know you're doing the right thing. You're with the right consultants and just enjoy this time.

[54:19] Anne Josephson: I mean, I will say one of the upsides of the whole audition process is the amount of time I got to spend with my kids one on one doing these things. It really was like a very sweet thing before they go and fly off and go to college. So try to enjoy the time. Try to make your best use of when you have free time to grab a meal or go to a museum or go see a show. Because pretty soon they're gonna be out of your house.

[54:47] Charlie Murphy: I love that so much. I've tried to say that more recently, and I'm gonna try to keep a memory to say that we always are telling the kids have fun, have fun, like bring joy into the audition room. All the ways that fun can be kind of competitive in this process, but to tell the parents that too. Like, have fun. One, it'll help your kids have fun, but the more this process feels fun, the better you're gonna do, and then of course.

[55:06] Anne Josephson: Yeah, and you know, they are, I mean, one of Samara's very, very best friends is a woman named Natalie who she met through MTCA who auditioned with her. And yesterday she went to pick Natalie up at the doctor because Natalie was having an egg retrieval done. And like they're still, you know, really, really, really close friends.

[55:26] Charlie Murphy: Yes.

[55:26] Anne Josephson: Um, and it was from MTCA and from doing these auditions. So you don't know all s and and some of the friends I have made I've kept for all these years. So, you know, it's stressful, but there's also really beautiful things to come out of it. And you know, and you're you are not your child's worth is not where he or she gets into college. Your worth as a parent isn't where your kid gets into college. Your worth as a parent is will your child when they're 30 still be sending you a birthday card? That would be things that might screw that up.

[56:02] Charlie Murphy: Oh, well that now that gets into some, but now we're back to therapy. We started with therapy, now we're back to therapy and a whole other kind of worms. But uh, and we so appreciate the time. We all know we can check out Jag Gym if we're looking for the best gymnastics in Southern California and maybe in the country, I don't know. Um, although those gyms be damned. Uh, thank you for time, Ann.

[56:19] Anne Josephson: It was so very welcome. This was a lot of fun. I'm happy to come on anytime.

[56:28] Charlie Murphy: Yes, yes, yes. Such an awesome conversation with Anne. You're gonna hear us talking about basketball at the end, right? Well, don't you know it? After AB finished with MTC Ed's and second child, Anne made me an offer and said, Anytime you're in LA, I want to take you to a Lakers game. Which I was like, my God, that's so nice of you, and wouldn't that be wonderful? But it just kind of felt like that kind of offer of like, let's get coffee when you're in the city. And we're like, I probably won't actually happen. But right after we got off this podcast interview, I happened to mention, hey, I'm gonna be in LA in two weeks. Not thinking we're gonna go to a Lakers game, but Anne immediately Googled and said, Hey, the Lakers have a game on that Saturday night.

And you want to get even crazier? The Lakers were playing the Warriors, which is my favorite team. Just a little bit of kizmet there. So before I knew what was happening, we're literally finishing up the podcast interview, and like bought tickets, and two weeks later we're sitting center court for Lakers Warriors game. So, how about that? Podcasts leading to real life, beautiful interactions. It was an amazing time for me. That game was so fun, and I was so glad to get to kind of reconnect with Ann on that deeper level, both in this interview that you've just heard, and then I R L as well.

[57:35] Anne Josephson: Um, okay, some takeaways. Let's do it. Uh, we said a decent chunk of this in the episode, but I do just think it's worth noting in that conversation about NYU academics, just the context of the conversations we've had before about kind of finding that right balance for yourself with academics. I keep talking about this because I think it's one of the biggest decisions that you can make for yourself in advance, like at least the kind of range you want to look at when you talk about academics, from a little to no academics kind of BFA to a decent chunk of academics like NYU. And I think it's one of the decisions which can be a bit more concrete, right? You can't really answer the vibes question in advance, right?

Maybe hopefully it's you get some help toward the vibes and listening to this very podcast, but you're gonna get much more of a sense of that from doing the actual audition experience and really being in the room with people, but you can investigate this kind of question in advance. That's why I focus on it so much. And specifically to NYU, for many, I think it can feel like that perfect balance in what they're offering when they talk about real academics and then real conservatory style training side by side. But it's worth saying, whether we're talking about NYU, which again, NYU is about as academic as you can get when you're talking about a BFA or any other BFA liberal arts school, when they tell you we're the best of both worlds.

You're gonna get both a conservatory style training and liberal arts. Just recognize that budget conversation that we've had before, right? Are you really gonna get that full triple major in acting, singing, and dancing, and a full fourth major in economics? I'm not gonna say that you can't, but I'll say, in my experience, it is basically impossible to get that full triple major feel in a conservatory-like environment, with again this definition of conservatory when I say it this way. I'm talking about conservatory, meaning like sequential classes with a cohort all growing together with a kind of prescriptive lesson plan. I'm not necessarily talking about the amount of academics, and then also get a full second major in a different feel.

And then a third thing to also have the feel of a true liberal arts college experience. So having all three of those things, I think it's really hard to do, right? I don't, I've never heard of that happening. I don't know if that's what Samara felt like she was missing in this case, though maybe that's what I'm it felt like she was saying, but I know for a lot of people, the traditional liberal arts college experience has a sense of exploration alongside of it, right? And that's what I think it's the hardest thing to replace. If you're getting a full musical theater BFA, it's hard to get that experience of exploration also. You can certainly explore within the musical theater world in lots of different programs, right?

When you're talking about taking different kinds of theater classes, different industry-related classes, absolutely. And you can do a bit of gentle exploration outside of liberal arts for a lot of schools. So taking all of your conservatory style classes and the theater school and then getting a little sample of liberal arts can happen. But I've not heard of a case where someone was getting all three of those elements, where you're getting that rigorous sequential musical theater BFA, another major in a different field, and still have time to do a bit of that dabbling exploring, right? That idea can be the hallmark of what is a liberal arts education for many people. And to get all three of those elements, I think it's really hard.

Now, listeners out there, please prove me wrong. If you were that case who had all three of those, let me know, right? But I just think it's just another way of having that same argument we've had before about budget. You know, when you talk about your time can only be allocated in so many different ways. I'm a big believer, you know, have heard me say this before, that there's no such thing as the perfect balance out there. It's not one school that has the perfect balance. There's only the right balance for you and what you're looking for in this moment. And often when I say even in this moment, I really should phrase it as like what you think you're looking for at this point in the process.

Since going through the process and having that experience, it often can shift that delicate balance. That's why I talk about a range of it as opposed to saying I'm exactly a 6040 person, because it really can shift me. Okay, I know I talk about that way too much, and I've talked about it in a lot of different episodes, but I do think it's one of the big learnings of the way I think about all these different schools, now really seeing the landscape after doing this for 20 years. And it's something that I'm not sure all of our families are keyed in and thinking about in that way. So I talk about it a lot.

[01:01:33] Charlie Murphy: Okay, the other thing I was gonna say on that question of fit, I also really like that conversation that Anne was talking about with Miles and Carnegie Mellon. You know, it's such a hard place to get to for students. But if you can get to that place of you're really investigating together, are we the right fit for you as much as are you the right fit for us? It's absolutely what the process should be. And it's what the process is. It's just that most students are so focused on the can I get in part, and of course, understandably so, you want to get into all these schools. But I'll say I'm very proud of CMU being able to recognize, hey, I'm not sure we're the right program to serve your unique human self, Miles, in all of what that meant for Miles in 2014.

And that they recognize there would be another program that might serve Miles better. And I'll just say that happens more often than you realize, and not just in cases of like distinct identity discussions where there might not be enough support in some of the ways we're talking about this episode. There's also just like much subtler cases of like, you're super talented, there's a lot going on there, but your specific talent doesn't necessarily spark me as much as I think it will other programs, right? Or, you know, I think that same idea can happen with voices and voice qualities for people who are more focused on the voice, right? It's really, it's just like dating. I can't believe I'm gonna do another dating metaphor.

My man, I'm really hitting all my favorite things. The dating metaphors talking about academics, right? And all this stuff, right? But that's the thing that you do in dating of like it should be about do you spark me and do I spark you? I know that seems a little gooey when you're talking about something as big and official as like getting into college, but it's really how it works in a lot of these cases, especially at the most competitive programs, where you're talking about a small group of people and you're deciding between a group of people who are all really talented. You know, Anne said it's all random, which I'm glad she was able to get over. That we pulled her over to the idea of subjective, which I like better than the word random.

But I will say there is absolutely no rhyme or reason to why some people spark other people, at least not that I know of. You know, Don Wadsworth, who I've talked about a lot of times, previous podcast guest, he really got my sense of humor. He really appreciated my intelligence. He thought I was the B's knees, right? And that's why I got into Carnegie Mellon. Was I objectively more talented than kids who didn't get in? Of course not, right? I was a talented 18-year-old kid, but I wasn't more talented than my best friend Alejandro, who got into Juilliard but didn't get into Carnegie Mellon. But to Don, I was the right fit. The point I'm trying to make is it's about the mutuality of it all. I sparked Don, but Don sparked me too.

I was really inspired by him. I thought his class was the greatest. I thought I had so much to learn from him. I was like, if I could sit and learn from this person for four years, I will be so inspired. That was there was mutuality at play, right? And that really then expanded outward to all the faculty at CMU. It just happened that Don was the one I met first, right? But often it starts with that experience of one person behind a table who really gets you and you really get them and grows from there. And there's a difference between recognizing that someone is talented, which obviously Cardi Mellon did with Miles, and saying, Yes, you're talented, and you really do it for me, and I really know how to teach you, and I want to teach you, and I think you'll be a fit here, right?

[01:04:39] Charlie Murphy: Okay, let's wrap with a quick hit on entrepreneurship, which is to say the reason I talk so much about entrepreneurship, it's not just because I started a business. I mean, I do think it's helpful for artists to think about entrepreneurship in case they want to be future Anne Josephson or future Charlie Murphy, and the reason we do talk about it a lot on the show, whatever the field that you might get into, we have seen so many of our students start really cool side hustle kinds of businesses and be really successful. I'm all into that. But the reason I talk about it a lot on the show is really more as a mindset that I think is helpful for young actors, in that idea that we've talked about of you need to be the CEO of your own business in this field, right?

It's not that you necessarily have to think CEO in terms of that kind of corporate talk, but you do have to figure out your own version of like how you can be your own visionary. You think about your own brand, you're your own salesperson, and you're your own operations department, especially at the beginning when you don't have a full team who are doing some of these things, right? All of the aspects of an independent business as Charlie Murphy actor, every ounce of knowledge of like basic capitalism and how business works, it will all serve you in this field. You know, we often joke in these meetings in the college process that parents will fill some of those roles. Parents might be the admin assistants or the travel agents or all the different roles that parents are gonna play that are really part of that like corporate structure.

But there's really truth to that, right? The corporation starts as early as now, at 16, 17. And certainly by the time you graduate, it's like you want to be ready for that IPO. You want to have all these things in place, right? And the sooner really you're able to wrap your head around at least the basic idea of that kind of thinking, around that mindset, the sooner you're gonna be ready for success in this business. Or, and the reason I talk about in this context with this episode, the sooner you might realize hey, this business isn't something I want to monetize. I might love this art form, but do I love the idea of turning it into a business and actually monetizing and corporatizing in this?

Or is it in fact more of a hobby? And maybe you're gonna monetize another skill set of yours, like they're talking about with that baseball analogy for me. And I'm just gonna end where I began, which is that idea of whatever skill set you all choose to monetize, whether it's that BFA, you get in school or something else that you choose to actually make money off of, we love and support you as MTCA alumni and are incredibly proud of all of your success in the world. Not just these three alumni, but all the hundreds of alumni, thousands of alumni now over the past 20 years.

[1:06:59] Charlie Murphy: Okay, let's wrap there on another episode of Mapping The College Audition, produced by Kelly Prendergast with social media work by Jordan Rice. Like and subscribe wherever you can do so. Follow us on social media at Mapping The College Audition on Instagram and write us a rating and review if you're feeling crazy. And of course, check us out at MTCA.com for help with your individual college prep needs and see if you can give Anne a run for her money with the most money spent at MTCA. I believe in you. Those Lakers tickets won't even count against the total, I promise. To my young artists out there mapping their journeys, please trust that you're enough for the right program, exactly as you are. Now keep striving. We'll catch you next week.