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[0:00] Charlie Murphy: Hello and welcome to Mapping The College Audition, a podcast where we explore the landscape of the college theater world and try to demystify this daunting audition process. I'm your host, Charlie Murphy, director of MTCA, that's Musical Theatre College Auditions, and today we've got a clowning around kind of show lined up for you. Bryce Pinkham is a good friend of mine from working and studying together many moons ago at Chautauqua Theatre Company Conservatory. And we talk about on the show, a longtime member of a fantasy football league that's going 15 years strong. And I have to say, over the years, he's been incredibly gracious of my utter dominance over him and really the rest of the league, which I think is a true testament to his character.

No, but all seriousness, he was a really kind and generous friend. I remember getting a drink with him after seeing him in Gentleman's Guide. This is now a number of years back. And even in the midst of what was like this incredible special moment for his career, you hear him talk about like how much that moment meant for him. He was so humble and down to earth. And all he wanted to do was chat about my life and catch up and how are you doing and make silly jokes. And I think you'll see a lot of that humility in this episode today, including at least some of me getting in on the fun by poking at his self-deprecation. But I hope you will take it in the spirit is meant, which was all good fun at Bryce's expense.

Today on the show, we talk about voice lessons in New York City and that quest to find the Broadway sound. We talk about courting discomfort, which is a phrase I really love. And Bryce takes a little discomfort bath in front of all of our eyes or in front of our ears, I guess. We talk about the peaks and valleys of the first five years out of college. We talk about learning something other than theater. We talk a lot about clowning, what clowning is in terms of audience awareness, a different avenue to find truth and some of the kind of childlike emotions that can come with clowning. We continue our discussions of the traps of type that we started in Gavin's episode. We talk about breaking into the product market, you know, yourself as a product and how you brand yourself.

And we talk a little bit about Bryce's pandemic experience before, of course, playing a game with Bryce. But before we get into the interview, I have to say, I'm guessing our keen-eared listeners are going to be able to pick up once the interview starts that I sound a little different than other interviews. I was away from home and my beautiful mic, and I'm going to be honest, it felt like being seen without makeup on for the first time. Just blemishes and all. Calling back to our episode with Gavin Grill, I'm used to being absolutely caked in metaphorical Ben Nye with this beautiful sonorous mic that I have in front of me. And so to have a basic computer mic was truly humbling. Probably good for me.

Probably good for me. You know, Bryce is very humble. I, myself, am not the humblest of guys, so it probably then was good. Have I told the story of this mic on the pod? If Megan was here, she would say like, oh yeah, you totally have. But of course, she's not. It's fine. This was a pandemic purchase Elizabeth made for concert work. This is like super fancy singing mic. I never would have thought when I was starting a pod, I'm like, I'm going to get a big fancy mic. No way. But I did start using it because we had it in the house, and now I've completely gollumed this mic. And gollum is a, I'm using that as a verb, like it's my precious, you know? Now when Elizabeth wants to use it, I make her refer to it as my mic.

It's very rude. She'll be like, can I use the mic? I'm like, oh, you mean my mic? When she should be like, no, my mic. I bought that damn thing. Speaking of rude, as we mentioned before, you're also going to notice no Megan here, though she was present for this interview. So if you'll hear little bits of her in the interview, if it makes your listening ears feel that much lonelier, just know I'm right there with you. If that feeling is uncomfortable, let's go court some discomfort in this interview with the great Bryce Pinkham. Well, we are honored to have Bryce Pinkham on the pod today. Bryce has a BA in communications and theater from Boston College, an MFA in acting from the Yale School of Drama.

He's been on Broadway in shows like The Great Society, Holiday Inn, Ghost the Musical, Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson, The Heidi Chronicles, for which he was nominated for an Outer Critics Award and a Drama League Award, and A Gentleman's Guide to Love and Murder, for which he got a Tony nom, an Outer Critics nom, and a Drama Desk nom. He's also been on TV in shows like The Good Wife, Person of Interest. He's the co-founder of Zara Aina, which he'll correct the pronunciation on, a not-for-profit children's theater company in Madagascar, and is also an accomplished clown who's taught clowning at NYU, Boston College, and other places, which we will talk about on the show. Bryce, how are you doing today? Welcome on the pod.

[4:50] Bryce Pinkham: I'm good. Thank you for having me.

[4:54] Charlie Murphy: I like that you call it the pod.

[4:57] Bryce Pinkham: It's the pod. It's the only pod.

[4:59] Charlie Murphy: You don't need to... It's so hip.

[5:01] Bryce Pinkham: The you. Once you've got the pod, it's like everyone knows...

[5:02] Charlie Murphy: Welcome to the pod.

[5:04] Bryce Pinkham: Wait. We're talking about the pod, for sure.

[5:08] Charlie Murphy: I grew up outside of San Francisco, and we used to call San Francisco the city. It was the only city. I like that you call your pod the pod.

[5:12] Bryce Pinkham: Absolutely. We're staking the claim. Did I get Zara Aina correctly?

[5:17] Bryce Pinkham: You got 50% of it correct, but you are not at fault. It's Zara Aina, like your I, and it's a Malagasy expression that means share life. We built that program in Madagascar with students from NYU, and that's why we chose that name for it, because we were sharing life. That's what we were doing. Zara Aina.

[5:42] Charlie Murphy: I've heard that before, too. I just didn't remember it. I'm sorry to have messed it up.

[5:46] Bryce Pinkham: No, not your fault.

[5:48] Charlie Murphy: Let's start. Before you're teaching at NYU, before you've even gone to any of these wonderful colleges that you've been to, can you take me back a little bit to you at 16, 17, or earlier, if that's when the theater bug really hit you and you started thinking about education, what did young, precocious Bryce think about as he was like, this is what I want from a college experience? Did you already know I might want an MFA experience? What were you thinking about as you were approaching this journey and drawing your own map?

[6:15] Bryce Pinkham: Sure. Well, I'll give you the theater bug story, and then I'll fast forward from there. The theater bug story is a first grade parent-teacher conference in which my parents were called in and were told, I believe the quote was, I need you to find your son a stage other than my classroom. Please find him an outlet for his, quote, reckless creativity.

[6:44] Charlie Murphy: Oh, what an accusation. Reckless creativity?

[6:48] Bryce Pinkham: I love it. I mean, that's like-

[6:51] Charlie Murphy: That's the greatest compliment someone can give you.

[6:52] Bryce Pinkham: When we talk about clown, we can talk about reckless creativity, but-

[6:55] Charlie Murphy: You better believe it.

[6:56] Bryce Pinkham: But this teacher has since become a family friend and is often credited with sort of getting me the help I needed, which at the time was an outlet. I was being a distraction in her class. And so, my parents found a kid's theater group, and that's where I caught the bug.

[7:20] Charlie Murphy: It was dangerous how creative you were.

[7:21] Bryce Pinkham: So fast forward to the second. Yeah, I was clearly being reckless with it. And so, fast forward to the second half of your question, which is 16-year-old Bryce. 16-year-old me is actually doing lots of things, playing lots of sports and continued theater as sort of a serious hobby. I mean, I am admittedly an overachiever, and so I was busy overachieving, as many 16-year-olds are. And so, I was doing the musical at the high school, and I was doing the musical at the community college, and the musical at the community theater, and also playing sports. And scouts. I was in scouts. I was running around like a maniac. But one thing that really helped me at that time do was make sure I was doing it for fun.

If it wasn't fun, I wasn't doing it because I had so many other things to do. And so, theater for me, I wasn't thinking about, well, I better figure out exactly how I'm gonna become a professional actor here. I was sort of still doing it for the love of creating something new with my friends and expressing myself in a way that I found natural and comfortable. I'm actually an introvert, and so something about being on stage allowed me to express myself in a fuller way than I could in everyday interaction as a 16-year-old. And I know I'm not alone there. So, I wasn't really thinking about a college path. I was certainly thinking about college and grades and trying to get into a school that I knew I would want to go to. So, I wasn't-

[9:25] Charlie Murphy: Not at this point like a professional actor. You weren't like, how am I gonna get onto a Broadway stage? That wasn't the goal from college.

[9:31] Bryce Pinkham: No, no. I was having too much fun as a teenager, and I wasn't focused on that. I had lots of interests. I sound like I'm blowing my own horn here, but really, I just couldn't decide. I knew that I liked doing lots of stuff, and I wasn't ready to say, well, I only want to do this. I was also, as I'm sure many of your students and alumni were, I just wasn't sure how it all worked. So, I didn't feel like I really even knew how to- I would have known how to go about that. So, I was doing it for the fun of it with my friends, and it's where I met girls. It was a really social activity for me. I took it very seriously, as I'm sure you can imagine, but in the way that I took everything seriously, not in the way that I was like, this is the only thing I'm ever gonna do, ever. It just was something I enjoyed doing, came naturally to me, and was a space that I enjoyed inhabiting. So, that was a long answer to your first of many questions.

[10:45] Charlie Murphy: No, it's a perfect answer. It sounds like a really perfect fit for you to end up at a really strong BA program, too, that's gonna give you multiple options. You're still testing out other things. You weren't ready to say, I'm specializing in nothing but theater. I wanna ask two questions, just because I know how long your answer is. I'm trying to get six questions in at once, to try to get them in there. Good, yeah. I wanna talk about, first, what your relationship with the parents were like. What were they thinking about, in terms of, were they guiding, hey, I really think you should go to this kind of school. It should be Ivy League, or it should be- Were they pressuring anything specific?

Were they cool with the idea of theater? Did they like the idea of an academic degree more than a theater degree? And then, where, if at all, the idea of musical theater entered in? Because you have both a theater degree and then an acting degree from Yale, but we're gonna end up, however many years later, in Broadway musicals. So, just, I guess, both what your parents' perspective was, and was any musical anything within that, your consideration at the time?

[11:39] Bryce Pinkham: Sure, well, I was lucky to have parents who were not what I would lovingly characterize as show parents. They were not that. My father did some acting in high school, and then thought better of it in college, and moved back home to marry his high school sweetheart, who became my mother. And so, he got back into the love of theater when I was getting into it as a kid. So, he was always sort of around, and he actually really got into the technical side of things. So, he stage managed a show at the community theater, and he built some sets for the high school musical. And actually, after I left high school, he took over directing the high school musical, and he's directed the musical where I went to high school for the last, I don't know, I won't say how many years, because that will tell you how old I am.

[12:42] Charlie Murphy: You play like 25-

[12:43] Bryce Pinkham: Many, many years. But to his credit, he was never pushing me or pressuring me to do anything, including theater. I think they were definitely keen for me to follow what I wanted to do with my life. But also, I think they knew me at that point, and knew that I wasn't going to choose something that I didn't feel like, A, I attached to in a meaningful way, and B, was going to set me up for a path with lots of options. And that's really what I wanted, and what I think they wanted for me was lots of options. And in terms of musicals, yeah, I mean, those were just what were being done over the summers at the high school. So that's what I did as a kid. And then when I got to college, at Boston College, the first thing I did there was a play, and I think I did several plays.

I basically just took my first two years of college to just take in as much as I could, both down at the theater, but just in everything, every class I could take. And every subject that I could sort of get a taste of. And then halfway through my time there, I was in a show called The Flying Doctor, which is a Moliere one-act. It's a Commedia dell'arte-inspired one-act. And I was jumping from a balcony back onto the stage, and then climbing up the set and jumping again. Anyway, it was this crazy, silly plot that just was hilarious. And I remember lying on my back in this costume after the R1 act had finished, and staring up into the fly, and just thinking, wow.

[14:56] Bryce Pinkham: On Courting Failure!

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[29:52] Bryce Pinkham: I keep a tally of good ideas and everything else. I think there's a picture on my Instagram account of one tab that I kept for a new musical, Benny and June, that I did at the Old Globe and later at the Paper Mill. Anytime you're making a world premiere, you're in there with the writers changing things up. This was a very physical part and there's lots of physical comedy involved. We were just trying things left and right and they were giving me lots of leash to just try lots of stuff. My fellow actors and I were really enjoying the tally of it because if you look at the picture that I think I eventually posted, it's like three good ideas came out of 24 different options for this one scene. That's really the ratio of, I'm doing air quotes again, success in our business and in a rehearsal process.

It requires failure. It requires all those bad ideas and therefore it requires an actor who, in my mind, can generate fearlessly, ferociously, and joyfully let go of any idea they've created as well. There's the picture. Of course, we knew Bryce was going to try to send you to the Instagram. Don't worry guys, we're going to cue Bryce's Instagram at some point. You're trying to give us a precise ratio is 24 to 3. It's an 8 to 1 ratio, is what you're saying, of good ideas.

[31:33] Charlie Murphy: I don't do math. I tested out of math, so I didn't actually do math in college. I was joking off, no big deal. I would say that it's a lot to a little.

[31:46] Bryce Pinkham: Okay, here's my other joke that I was thinking of while you were talking because you were going on for a while, so I had a good chance for jokes.

[31:50] Charlie Murphy: So you're not actually listening while I'm talking, you're just thinking of jokes?

[31:53] Bryce Pinkham: Yeah, 8 to 1. I do 8 jokes until I get one that makes you actually laugh.

[31:57] Charlie Murphy: That's right. Yeah, it's the same with jokes. You got to just try them out. Ask my wife, she says, are we to number 8 yet? I say, nope, nope, not until you laugh.

[32:07] Bryce Pinkham: You're like, yes, honey, we've done 24 already. You should have laughed three times by now.

[32:13] Charlie Murphy: Why can it be the Old Globe and the Paper Mill and that's not the pod? That was my trick joke at the bottom 10 minutes ago.

[32:20] Bryce Pinkham: No, that's right. The pod.

[32:23] Charlie Murphy: Megan is holding, just so the audio people can hear it, Megan is holding her head in shame. She doesn't like it when we record at night. She thinks I get too silly at night and she's not wrong. The question is, in a few years, will you just call yourself pod?

[32:39] Bryce Pinkham: Pod. Papa of the day. Let's cue to a short break and on the back end, we're gonna talk about Bryce's professional life and we'll get into clowning. We've promised clowning, so we'll talk a little bit about clowning. Back in a few.

[32:57] Charlie Murphy: Okay, we are back with Bryce Pinkham for more silliness and a little bit of wisdom, potentially. I wanna talk a little bit about, so you're getting out of Yale and you mentioned Bloody Bloody was your first sort of job in New York. You've been talking about getting voice lessons, all that. Just talk me through a little bit of that journey to when you felt like, okay, I mean, I'm gonna say like, oh, you've arrived, even though you may say I've never arrived or whatever, but that first moment of going, wow, I really, maybe I got a Tony nom for Gentleman's Guide. What does that feel like? Whatever that first plateau of real success, which you can sort of define for me, what was that journey from like out of school, getting an agent, figuring it out, the ups and downs of that? Give me a little bit of that goodness.

[33:38] Bryce Pinkham: Sure. Well, I don't know what happens in other people's heads, but in my head, there was a voice or whatever that train of thought is in my head that said, I know I can do this. And it wasn't until Gentleman's Guide that I felt like, okay, that voice was right. So, that was five years after I graduated. Grad school, I think was Gentleman's Guide. And I said to myself, when I was graduating Yale, I said, okay, there were two years at Boston College that I said, okay, I'm going to take this seriously now. I would regret it if I don't do this. And then there were three years of graduate school, that's a total of five years investment that I put in this opportunity. I owe myself five years to try this out.

I'm not going to give up after a year because that would be not in balance with the amount of investment I put in this. So, I said, I graduated at 25. I'm going to evaluate how I'm doing at 30. And if I like the opportunities I've had, and if I like the lifestyle that this profession allows me or doesn't allow me, then I'll keep going. And if I don't, after those five years, I'm cool to step away and try something else. I know I won't regret my choices if I give myself the best chance to succeed, in air quotes. And Gentleman's Guide was that five-year mark. I had graduated five years prior. So, that was when I felt like, okay, that was my five years it took me to get to this place where I feel like, yes, I am very happy with the work I'm doing and the lifestyle that I am able to have. And I think I can keep going. So, here we are.

[35:41] Charlie Murphy: And give me the highest high and the lowest low of those five years. So, where was the, oh my gosh, this is, I'm really going to, and then what was the point where you're like, oh my gosh, I said five years, but I feel like I'm going to kick in the towel. So, you leave school, whether it's college or grad school, and you come to New York. And I, every actor will tell you what they had to do when they first got to New York. The people who are like, well, I just came with a job. And those are unicorn stories. Like most of the stories are like mine. I had three part-time jobs and I was tutoring, coaching soccer, and waiting tables. And I loved it because it was easier than grad school. I was like, oh, I can do this.

Multiple things at once, not enough energy, not enough money, not enough food. I got this. And I know I don't want to stay here. So, that's my extra motivation to put the time in with the auditions. But your answer was, or your question, rather, was about peaks and valleys. And I would say, obviously, being nominated for a Tony Award and going through all that fanciness, let's just call it, was definitely a peak of sorts. It's sort of a false peak, really, because the thing you learn quickly once you're around or close to that moment every year is that as soon as it's over, everyone forgets it. Not in a mean way, just in sort of like, all right, cool, what's coming next? And so, it's pretty easy to feel like after you go through a Tony season that you're suddenly headed down the backside of that mountain.

Our show did win Best Musical, so we had sort of a prolonged party. And that was a special, special time for me. So, that was definitely a peak. And there have been multiple valleys. And any actor who's still doing it after being out of school for more than five years will tell you that it is the most difficult part of what we do happens when you don't have a job. The job is the easy part. The in-between times are the difficult part. And so, just to tie this back into education for a second, I would say my valleys, meaning the times when I was lowest, meaning without a job and without being creatively fulfilled, they were best served by my education and my desire to learn about lots of things, such that I could pick up a survival job in many different areas. I could start a coaching business or, as I said, I was—

[39:02] Charlie Murphy: Please don't start a coaching business, Bryce. That's not what you're here for, all right? We're not trying to get you—

[39:05] Bryce Pinkham: No, I'm not here to promote my new coaching podcast, Bryce Coaches Better Than Charlie.

[39:09] Charlie Murphy: Cut his mic. No!

[39:10] Bryce Pinkham: He sounds better on his fancy mic than I do on my computer. And now, he's still got a coaching business. This episode is going to the trash. Toss it. Toss it off.

[39:15] Bryce Pinkham: No, but I guess I'm attempting to reach through the microphone to your students and say, learn about something other than acting. Come into the room with a perspective on lots of things and a knowledge of how to pick up new information quickly. I think that's what school's for, is to learn how to learn. And so, the best actors, in my opinion, are people who can learn things quickly, not just lines, but can learn about different worlds, can learn about different writers, can learn about different times of history, be given a... The Great Society was a play that takes place in 1968, a year I was not alive in. And so, what was my job? It was to go find out as much information about RFK, the character I played, and 1968 as I could. I was prepared and not scared to do that because I had a good education in learning things.

[40:14] Charlie Murphy: You're giving me college's knowledge. You're giving me prepared, not scared. What is this, like, Rhyme Time with Bryce that's happening? It's really nice.

[40:18] Bryce Pinkham: Thank you. I hope to come up with more rhymes by the time we're finished.

[40:21] Charlie Murphy: No, I do think it's really great in terms of... It's the thing I'll often say to our students. Around this time of year, we're recording this right before May 1st, which is Commitment Day, though this is going to come out a little bit later. But it's... When we talk about there's no perfect school, it's like no matter what, you're going to have to supplement. If you go to a school where you're getting a really broad education, you're almost certainly going to have to supplement with more intense conservatory-style training at some point if what you want to do is be a professional actor. And if you go to a conservatory right out of school, I always feel like it's your responsibility then to continue to broaden your education in other ways.

That it's like you have to then, am I going to go study political science? Am I going to take coursework classes? What am I going to do to go... I don't want to just know about... How do I supplement? No one school or one four years is going to give you everything that you need. How do I create that for myself so I am a well-rounded actor?

[41:06] Bryce Pinkham: And to piggyback on what you just said, okay, I graduated from Yale School of Drama with 16 other people. I would say of those 16 from however many people auditioned my year, of those 16 actors, I don't know for certain, but I would say between four and seven of them are still acting. So let's just be real and say even... And by the way, not because they... Some of those people who aren't acting anymore, it's not because they couldn't, because they stopped wanting to or they became interested in other things. This is the truth about people. And while I'm here, let me say the one thing that I would tell students and not just because their parents are listening to this podcast in the background.

Please, please, please, listeners, go to the business school and take a business course. I am a professional actor and I work in show business. I studied all show. I wish I had studied business at least the tiniest bit because what I do is I run a business and I am the CEO, the product manager, and the product.

[42:23] Charlie Murphy: You don't even know the terms.

[42:25] Bryce Pinkham: And I didn't fully understand that.

[42:26] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[42:30] Bryce Pinkham: Yeah, yeah. And so I would just... If there's one thing I could do differently, it would be to go take a business course at the business school outside of my major.

[42:34] Charlie Murphy: Uh-huh. I love it. I love it. And you're writing a business. This is the coaching business that you're running or you're saying, the rival coaching business, or are you talking about acting?

[42:40] Bryce Pinkham: Yeah. That's all I can think about now is my rival coaching podcast.

[42:46] Charlie Murphy: No, it's...

[42:46] Bryce Pinkham: I'm going to call it the other pod.

[42:49] Charlie Murphy: Not the other pod. No, it's such a good point.

[42:52] Bryce Pinkham: The other better pod that you should listen to instead.

[42:55] Charlie Murphy: I'm going to be honest. That's a less catchy name than the pod. I'm just going to say...

[42:58] Bryce Pinkham: I'm going to make it work.

[43:00] Charlie Murphy: Okay. We'll see. Speaking of making it work, let's talk a little bit about clowning. So we've sort of teased with the idea of what clowning is. It's in listeners and some might know. I'll bet a lot of the parents don't who are listening. And some of the younger students also might not have heard of clowning yet. Give me like... You don't have to give me the definition, but when we talk about clowning, what do you mean? Because I don't think you mean like birthday clown clowning, as we might both know the clown. But what do you mean when you say I'm clowning?

[43:26] Bryce Pinkham: Well, yes. Clown, unfortunately, is a word that a lot of people are just like, ah clown. Does that mean circus? Does that mean birthday? Does that mean scary horror movie? No, it means none of those things. It is physical expression that often pursues failure in an attempt to make an audience laugh. So it is the act of seeking laughter from an audience. If you think about a scene study class, you're not teaching students how to try and make an audience laugh. You're teaching students how to try and excavate truth from words on a page and make that truth three-dimensional. A clowning class is literally trying to make people laugh and learning what that feels like when it happens and learning what that feels like when it doesn't happen and using both those possibilities as the springboard for what happens next. So I love teaching clowning because it is always joyful. It's always attached to something we all have when we're children and

[45:49] Bryce Pinkham: Jim Carrey is a physical comedian who, by the way, is also a great actor. And I think there's like this mis, what's the word? There's a misperception that clown is about comedy and it's yuck, yuck, yuck. And it's all about, well, let's just make people laugh. It's really not. It's just another way into truth for acting. And especially like it's a backdoor into failure and dealing with it and encountering it in a real way. Because when you're in a clown exercise and you try something that you think is funny and we don't laugh, you instantly feel that. You can't get away from feeling that. There is real truth happening in your body that you can experience in front of us in a very public way, which is, one of my favorite teachers at Yale used to say, acting is learning to be private and public.

And so it's just another tool to get at trying to reveal something personal in front of an audience. I love that word reconnect, especially when you're talking about like with a childlike joy or glee, but also because I think it's such a great definition that clown is connecting you to an audience in a direct way, in a way that we've been stepping back from for our whole very serious training a lot of the time, right? We know on some level when we start acting, we're doing it to make our parents laugh maybe, for an audience. We're doing it, we talk about this a lot, the Laurence Olivier quote of like, look at me, look at me, look at me, that it is often about that attention and applause and validation when we're 11, 12, whatever the first time we're doing it.

And then we get really serious and all the work becomes about our scene partner. And we're almost trained to fully shut off the audience or ignore them because we're just, what is the truth of the moment to moment work? And you sort of, it does open up another world to you to realize, oh, but yeah, of course they're there the whole time too, right? The way that they're there for Hamlet when he turns and says to be or not to be, it's like, they're there for us, whether we choose to break the fourth wall or not. There is some kinesthetic relationship with the audience, whether we're clowning or not, whether we're acting or whether we're doing a full clown show.

[49:01] Bryce Pinkham: It's the most beautiful thing about live theater is there's an audience. And whether or not you're in a play that acknowledges them or in a musical that acknowledges them, they're there. And your job as an actor is to make sure you're listening to them. And so that is exactly, you're right, Charlie. One of the things that I try to encourage clown students to cultivate is even if you're not going to use that connection directly, you have to know that it's there. If your audience isn't laughing at something you're doing, you have to know that and move through it quicker. Or if they do really like something that you're doing, you can lean into it a little bit more. Your job is to entertain. I mean, it depends on the show and it depends on the director.

Some director will come backstage and say, hey, cut that out because it's not telling the story. But an audience, I love first previews because that's the first audience who will tell you what's funny and tell you what's not funny. If you're not listening to them and you're not tethered to them in a relationship that is important to you, not saying it has to be more important than your relationship to your scene partner, but it's there. You're right. You can't deny that what we do is for a live audience. We're not on Netflix here. I saw you in Gentleman's Guide, which you were fantastic in, by the way. But I can't imagine a show like that not having a tether to the audience. It would be not fun to watch.

If we feel like we're a participant in that show of what we laugh at, what we don't, what we feel like in interaction, that's true of a lot of comedy shows, right? That you feel like I got a show that's special for me because they reacted to my reaction. So I was part of the live kinesthetic experience.

[50:37] Bryce Pinkham: Absolutely. And Gentleman's Guide, I was full clown. I mean, that was the peak of my clown training aspirations was that part because the part itself did have a direct relationship to the audience. At least I thought he did. And I think not for nothing, that's what I brought to the audition that maybe helped me get the job. So I really think that that training was useful, yes, for that specific genre, but also just to the clown doesn't walk out on stage with something he's not proud to share. And so bringing that pride and bringing that joy in the way that my son brings me a broken popped balloon on a wooden block and says, here's your pancake, daddy. I know it's not a pancake, but I'm like, oh my God, that was such a beautiful gift he just brought me.

It doesn't matter what the thing is. It's how you bring it. It was almost a rhyme. Not the thing, how you bring. I can put that in the show notes. See? I'm comfortable with failure. I'm comfortable with failure. I'm sitting right here in this discomfort. Oh, it's so discomfortable in here. So nice and warm in this discomfort bath that I'm in. Oh, pass me that discomfort soap, would you? Thank you. Who else is in the bath with you? This is very disturbing. It's just me. I'm lying. Yeah. Yeah. It's just me in this discomfort bath. I'm not actually in a bath right now. No, I've just stopped talking. No, he was unbuttoning his shirt. It's because he was stepping into a bath. Nope, not true. Not true. Come to Bryce's Better Than Charlie podcast and you will get a podcast with class. You're wearing a shirt in the bath.

[52:39] Bryce Pinkham: And with no failure at all. I'd love to talk about, because you mentioned sort of some of those direct connections that we're making with something like Gentleman's Guide. How have you felt like, because obviously the clown is now a really big part of your life and not necessarily every actor who studies clown in a grad school or in a conservatory is going to have this deeper relationship with clown, but how do you find it has helped you in like dramatic work?

[53:00] Bryce Pinkham: Well, I think about it a lot with auditions. I mean, we're doing a lot of our auditions on tape now, but the clown exercises are set up as I sort of described, an actor will walk out. In other words, walk out onto stage from a place where you can't see them until you can see them. And that's sort of like an audition, right? You walk into a room. And so I think about it before I walk into an audition room to try and bring some of that joy and assumption that things are going to go really well. The clown is excited to be out on stage. He wants to be there. He wants to make people laugh. He's so thrilled that he's gotten up the courage to leave all the other clowns who aren't brave enough to get out on stage and actually do the thing.

And so I try to bring that into an audition setting with me. But the part I haven't really talked about, I've made it all about laughter, but the truth is that one of the things you learn in clown class is that the laughter pipes and the, we call them the wah-wah pipes, the crying pipes, they run really close together. They're very similar. And so a lot of times in a clown exercise, students, myself included, will find themselves inexplicably in a bout of sort of unexplainable emotion that for someone like myself who got into school and was like, okay, I'm going to learn how to cry now, or I'm going to learn how to be emotional now. It was just a way to shake that loose in an unexpected way that I could have the experience of, oh my gosh, these emotions feel real.

I know they're not because this is a make-believe situation, but they feel real. And that's an experience that you can actually have as an actor. It's like, wow, actually my body is creating the simulation of real emotions because my mind believes on some level that thing my scene partner just said. Or I've set it up in a way that I can have this experience as a performer that serves a story. Okay, so that's a long way of saying clown also delves into the more icky emotions. And it allows you to really sit in what it feels like to be ashamed and what it feels like to fail and be stuck and to have to work through that. And that, as an artist and as a constant failure, you just get more accustomed to the depths.

You get more accustomed to the risk involved in needing to pursue triumph. We always say in clown, great triumph doesn't come without great risk. And it doesn't mean you got to stand on 15 chairs and try and not fall in order to be triumphant. It just means you got to try some outrageous stuff sometimes to get people to laugh at you. And sometimes it doesn't work. And sometimes that's really painful when people do not find what you think is funny, funny. And I've heard other actors who aren't as keen on the physical side of the clowning world, who will say that their favorite acting class was clown because it acquainted them with the messiness of being alive.

[56:03] Bryce Pinkham: Being alive. I was almost singing Being Alive when you first were talking about discomfort and what it is to be, I want to be discomfortable so I can be alive anyway. I was almost, I was 30 minutes ago thinking of being alive and then it popped in this moment. What a beautiful thing. Yeah, I'm so sorry that you didn't say it.

[57:01] Charlie Murphy: No, steeped in fatherhood as we both are, just hearing that wah-wahs and the ha-has being so near each other, it's like it could not be more evident than when you have a toddler or we have an infant. But like there are times it's like, is it sadness? And it's really, truly both. Like she's delightfully laughing but about to have a full meltdown and those are both happening right alongside each other.

[57:29] Bryce Pinkham: Yes, and my son sometimes he doesn't know which one he's doing. He'll be like, am I laughing or crying? I don't know. And actually the other thing that children and therefore the clown teach us is short memory. Like they have a, my daughter will have a, she's three, will have a full-on drag out meltdown and then a minute later will be as happy as can be. With tears still running down her face, she'll be as happy as can be. They have short memories and as actors we have to have short memories. You had a bad rehearsal yesterday, you gotta learn how to like let that go and find a better rehearsal today. And that is a clownish spirit and a clownish approach to what we do. It's like, all right, I made a mess yesterday, let's see what sort of beautiful mess I can make today.

And the last thing I'll say about the value of clown training, unless you keep asking me about it. The last thing I'll say is it puts actors in situations where they are able to surprise themselves because oftentimes the thing that I think is going to be funny is not the thing that the audience thinks is funny about me or about what I'm doing. So oftentimes in clown class, the audience will dictate what the performer does and the performer will be surprised by the fact that doing that thing that they do is the thing that makes the audience laugh. And it's so surprising that it takes them to a place they never would have gone on their own. It's giving over some of that control, a word I used before, to the audience and allowing the performer to be surprised.

And that's a really valuable space to be comfortable in. So I don't know what's going to happen out here. I'm comfortable not knowing because I know no matter what happens out here, I'm going to be okay. And I'm going to find my way through with the audience and my scene partner. That's the trick of what we do is like, can you go out and be okay with anything that happens? Well, and so many things. I didn't say this when we're talking about your MFA classmates, but I think it is true that I imagine many of them acquired incredible.

[1:00:15] Bryce Pinkham: Courting failure is something that I think is really important to talk about, especially in the arts. It’s so easy to get caught up in the idea of success and what that looks like, but I think the real growth happens when we embrace our failures and learn from them.

[1:00:45] Bryce Pinkham: I remember when I was in college, I had this experience where I auditioned for a show and I thought I was perfect for the role. I went in, gave it my all, and then I didn’t get cast. It was devastating at the time, but looking back, it taught me so much about resilience and the importance of not taking rejection personally.

[1:01:15] Bryce Pinkham: There’s a certain freedom that comes with accepting failure. It allows you to take risks and explore different aspects of your artistry without the fear of judgment. When you’re not afraid to fail, you can truly find your voice and your unique style.

[1:01:35] Bryce Pinkham: I think a lot of artists struggle with the “traps of type.” We get pigeonholed into certain roles or expectations based on our looks or previous work. It’s important to break out of those molds and challenge ourselves to take on different characters and stories.

[1:01:45] Bryce Pinkham: During the pandemic, I had a unique experience where I was forced to reevaluate my career and what I wanted to achieve. It was a time of reflection and growth, and I learned to appreciate the journey rather than just focusing on the end goal.

[1:01:55] Bryce Pinkham: I think it’s crucial for artists to get comfortable with discomfort. Whether it’s trying something new, facing rejection, or stepping outside of your comfort zone, those moments can lead to incredible breakthroughs in your work.

[1:02:15] Bryce Pinkham: I remember a time when I was working on a clowning piece. It was challenging and pushed me to my limits, but it also opened up a whole new world of creativity for me. Embracing that discomfort allowed me to explore different facets of my performance.

[1:02:35] Bryce Pinkham: I think we often underestimate the power of vulnerability in our work. When we allow ourselves to be vulnerable, we connect with our audience on a deeper level. It’s about being real and honest in our performances.

[1:02:45] Bryce Pinkham: I’ve had moments where I felt like I was failing, but those moments have shaped me into the artist I am today. It’s all part of the process, and I wouldn’t trade those experiences for anything.

[1:03:05] Bryce Pinkham: So, I encourage everyone to embrace failure. Don’t shy away from it; let it be a part of your journey. It’s through those failures that we learn, grow, and ultimately find success in our own unique way.

[1:03:15] Bryce Pinkham: And remember, every artist has their own path. What works for one person may not work for another, and that’s okay. Trust your instincts and follow your heart.

[1:03:35] Bryce Pinkham: I think it’s also important to surround yourself with a supportive community. Having people who understand the struggles of being an artist can make all the difference. They can lift you up when you’re feeling down and celebrate your successes with you.

[1:03:45] Bryce Pinkham: As we navigate this industry, let’s keep the conversation going about failure and success. It’s a topic that deserves more attention, and I hope we can continue to explore it together.

[1:03:55] Bryce Pinkham: Thank you for having me on this journey. I’m excited to see where it takes us next!

[1:14:41] Bryce Pinkham: I know that if I do, it'll probably be as a leading man, or I'll be cast by somebody who knows, you know, has seen me do theater work. But I know that most of the auditions I'm going to get are of a certain age-appropriate type of character. And I'm okay with that. And when I get them, I'm like, great, let's put as much of a leading man on a network TV show energy into this audition, knowing that I have a love for much more than that. And if I get to do it, then maybe I'll get to do the next thing, you know, two or three jobs down the line. So, you know, people who have worked with me more than once, those are the people that say, hey, I know you have the show coming up, and you might not think of me, but you know, I'd really like to play Edward Scissorhands.

You know, that's the show I'd like to do next. I think it becomes like at a certain point in your career, you will still be seeking opportunities, and other opportunities will be seeking you. And that'll be the chance for you to say, yeah, I'd love to do something. Here's what I'd love to do. And then see if those people are interested in letting you do that. And then, you know, at the same time, like I lean towards leading man roles that have a bit of that, like, I don't know, a bit of that clown, or a bit of that strange guy in them. Like I just did a workshop of a Sherlock Holmes musical. And like, that's, you know, Sherlock is a leading man, but he's not a traditional leading man. And, you know, he's got quirkiness to him.

And that's the sort of stuff that now when it comes up, I go, yeah, I'd be good for that. And other things come up and I go, yeah, I can kind of make the shape of that, but it's not as close to who I am. So I think early, early career, you need to know what package you are showing up to a convention, let's just call it, you know, convention where actors are being hired. You need to know what you're showing up with and what expectation you bring just by showing up to the room. And that involves anything that anyone who, this is a visual medium, anything that people see is going to give them an impression about what, who you are. And, and by the way, anything people hear, you know, your voice, what does it sound like?

And so ask some teachers and mentors and podcast hosts that you trust to tell you what people are going to see and try not to take it personally when they tell you the honest truth and learn to harness that truth for your own use, knowing that it's not the full truth. It's obviously not the full truth of who you are, but it is the business truth at the beginning of your career of what people are going to see. And therefore you can lean into it and help support it in your headshot, in your, you know, anything you're presenting as professional material, you know, websites, social media, all that stuff, you can help back up that expectation with what people see. And then once you've built sort of a reliability and a foundation of dependability, then from there you can start to, you know, branch out and say, I've done, I've played that part three times for you.

Now I'd like to do this instead, or I'm more interested in this. So it's not something so much to worry about in early career development. I think finding someone who you trust to tell you what they see. And then also for yourself saying, I want to be a comp, you know, this great branding exercise, which is like combine yourself, combine three actors that you love, um, that you actually think are close to you and put them together in a statement of, well, who are you? Who are you in this business? And I used to say, like, I don't exactly remember, but I used to say when I was young, I used to say, um, I'm a young Jude Law with Johnny Depp quirkiness. And like, since that time, I've played a part that Johnny Depp played and, you know, uh, I've played, you know, Monty Navarro arguably could have been played by a young Jude Law in a movie.

So like, it is useful to know what people are going to see and harness it for your own good and make it like, feel, um, good to you. I remember people used to, you know, acting teachers, other actors, anyone loves to see you and go, Oh, you look like da, da, da, da, da. And I remember I used to take that, like, no, I don't look like him. I look like me, you jerk. Um, but looking back on it, I've always felt that I, I, and that's the one I get the most. Yeah, of course. But, but I learned to be like, that's great. That's great. I, you know what, I'll use that. I will go and look at, for me, it was Jude Law. I was like, I'll go look at Jude Law's career and say, all right, well, what sort of parts has he played?

What did he start doing? Um, and even when I'm searching for audition material, I'm like, well, what did David Hyde Pierce do? Um, what was the first thing he did out of college? And I'll go, you know, pull that. And admittedly, I've played two parts that David Hyde Pierce played, um, as a young actor. So it's like learning to kind of see how people are casting you and starting to fold that into, like, okay, this is where I fit so that you can spend less energy trying to make yourself fit on every shelf everywhere. Um, and instead going, this is what I do really, really well to start. I love it. And, you know, obviously the point of this conversation is not to like be like, oh, it's so hard to be this handsome white man, like, like Bryson and Gavin are, but I do think it's helpful to kind of hear that perspective on, you know, how to use the ability to fit within, um, constructs of the business have, as opposed to, we've had some, I think, really great conversations with people like Shakina Nafak, who are like, I'm breaking down some barriers and I'm, and I have to trailblaze because I don't fit into perfect boxes of the traditional musical theater canon.

So it's like a different approach. And, you know, we sort of present that all the sort of take it how you will of, does it make more sense for me to be someone who goes this and then subverts, or am I the person who knows early on, I have to create my own work. I have to come in from the side because I'm not going to be able to squeeze into that traditional box quite as much.

[1:21:35] Bryce Pinkham: And thank you for bringing that up. You know, I'm a cis-gendered white man who is nearly 40. And like, yeah, the history of musical theater has been really good to people who look like me. And thankfully, you know, we're experiencing this cultural moment where that shift is beginning in ways or continuing in ways. And I think for anyone who feels like they don't fit in a box, that is a wonderful thing that you feel that way, that you don't fit in a box. Like I want to hear stories of people who feel like they don't fit in boxes. And I think the industry really does too. So if you are listening to this, like, well, I'm not what this guy's talking about. That is a good thing. And that is an asset.

Anything you have is an asset. You just have to learn to look at it that way. Because there is, you know, in the platonic ideal of our industry, there is room for everybody. It's not the case yet, but it should be. And everybody wants it to be that way. And so if you are feeling like there's not room for me, you are going to make that room because of who you are. And the fact that you don't fit in a box, that's awesome. Because you are going to trailblaze that box. You're going to build that box. And people are going to say, oh, I want someone like fill in the blank. And that's a great way in too. You just have to view whatever you have as an asset rather than a burden, which is anytime people try to put you in a box or say you don't fit in a box, it feels like a burden. And part of what our job is to turn that around and make it like, no, that's actually my rocket fuel you're describing. Thank you so much.

[1:23:32] Bryce Pinkham: Yeah. We just had two coaches who are in a strange loop open on Broadway and like talk about a bunch of roles that I had not seen before in the American musical theater canon, like a number of parts in that play. I would have gone, huh, cool. Like it's like creating and adding new boxes or whatever, maybe they're not boxes, they're spheres or however, you know, different shaped boxes that are entering into the canon that we're saying, okay, this too, this as well.

[1:23:59] Bryce Pinkham: I have to do, we're running way long, of course, we could have expected this with the two of us getting on, but I have to do a substitute question. Give us a microphone and it's all over.

[1:24:08] Charlie Murphy: Well, you have a microphone. I just have this sad little computer thing.

[1:24:11] Bryce Pinkham: But I have to do a substitute question from Elizabeth because she wanted to hear about your pandemic journey. She has an impression that you had a magical pandemic. We don't ask a lot of pandemic questions because we don't want the pod to be all, what'd you do in these two years? You know, we started this pod in a pandemic, the pod in a pandemic, but I'm going to ask you, tell me a little about your two years of pandemic and how it's been.

[1:24:31] Bryce Pinkham: Yeah. So we, my wife and I had a one-year-old and we're expecting a second child that we knew was going to be born in May of 2020. And so when Broadway shut down, we were both already sort of in a valley, in an intentional valley. We were like, okay, we're going into like last trimester here. We're getting ready to bring a baby home. Neither of us had jobs. We were kind of like settling in for the first few months of having yet another child in the house.

[1:25:09] Bryce Pinkham: So thankfully our son was born and I was able to be there in May of 2020. And then, you know, like everybody else staring at the news and sort of going, okay, well, it's clear that I'm not going to have an acting job for a while. So what are we going to do? We decided to rent our house and make our way to family for help. And at the time we were not ready to take our newborn on a flight. So we, we bought a 1962 Winnebago off of Facebook and my dad drove across the country from California, hitched it up and we all, and I mean myself, my wife, my one-year-old and my three-month-old drove across the country in August of 2020. Couple little things you need to remember about August of 2020. One was it was prior to the election.

And so we were in a various, various feverish states. I don't mean, well, we were in many feverish states, I guess, because they were physical states where people had fevers, but that's not what I meant. I meant we were in, you know, various levels of concern about what was happening next in our country. And, you know, obviously divided camps about that. And we drove through a lot of divided camps along the way. So that was super interesting and scary at times. And then the other thing to remember was that in California, our destination, there were incredible wildfires and we arrived three weeks. Our journey was, we arrived in California on the day you saw it on social media where the sky was orange.

It was just sort of like the sun covered by ash. And so we didn't arrive on the day we planned. We had to back off a few days and then ultimately landed in my childhood home where my wife and I slept on an air mattress in my childhood living room and my two children slept in the bedrooms that my sister and I grew up in. It was a very humbling and also beautiful time. It was time that I wouldn't have had with my kids. It was time that I wouldn't have had with my parents and my kids.

[1:27:48] Charlie Murphy: All while, you know, everything was so uncertain and terrible. And that was for now a year? How long did you do that?

[1:27:57] Bryce Pinkham: We were there for nine months. We stayed for nine months with my parents. And, you know, we didn't know when we were going to work again. So we were saving our pennies. And the silver lining was, as you know, we had a purpose every day. A lot of people talk about waking up and not knowing what they were going to do that day. And that being really unsettling. Our purpose was to keep two tiny humans alive and to try and find sleep whenever we could. So it wasn't always the most fun, but it was definitely like we didn't have to worry about what we were going to do. We always knew what our day was going to be about. And, you know, we didn't get to start our novels or anything, you know, any projects like that.

But we did get super valuable family time and start my company. And we had, you know, we had this trip in Winnebago across the country that took three weeks and we stopped in crazy places. And our kids took a bath in a, you know, in a little bucket and, you know, stuff like that that we'll just never forget. We've forgotten all the bad stuff and we just remember the good things. And my wife, who's a performer as well, like we've since like developed a cabaret that we do together about this trip and sort of about the whole experience. So it's turned into something creative and artistic, but it was to answer Elizabeth's inquiry. It was beautiful at times, but there were also plenty of times where it was scary and boring and upsetting and all the things.

[1:29:27] Bryce Pinkham: The end of the story is that we ended up selling our house and buying our friend's house. So we left that house and returned to a different house. And my parents.

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[1:41:38] Bryce Pinkham: www.brycepinkham.com

[1:41:48] Bryce Pinkham: www.brycepinkham.com

[1:41:58] Bryce Pinkham: www.brycepinkham.com

[1:42:08] Bryce Pinkham: www.brycepinkham.com

[1:42:18] Bryce Pinkham: www.brycepinkham.com

[1:42:28] Bryce Pinkham: www.brycepinkham.com

[1:42:38] Bryce Pinkham: www.brycepinkham.com

[1:42:48] Bryce Pinkham: www.brycepinkham.com

[1:42:58] Bryce Pinkham: www.brycepinkham.com

[1:43:08] Bryce Pinkham: www.brycepinkham.com

[1:43:18] Bryce Pinkham: www.brycepinkham.com

[1:43:28] Bryce Pinkham: www.brycepinkham.com

[1:43:38] Bryce Pinkham: www.brycepinkham.com

[1:43:48] Bryce Pinkham: www.brycepinkham.com

[1:43:58] Bryce Pinkham: www.brycepinkham.com

[1:44:08] Bryce Pinkham: www.brycepinkham.com

[1:44:18] Bryce Pinkham: www.brycepinkham.com

[1:44:28] Bryce Pinkham: www.brycepinkham.com