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[0:10] Charlie Murphy: Hello, hello, and welcome to Mapping the College Audition, a podcast where we explore the landscape of the college theater world and try to demystify this daunting audition process.

[0:19] Charlie Murphy: I'm your host, Charlie Murphy, director of MTCA. That's Musical Theater College Auditions. And today we've got Matt Scott on the pod.

[0:28] Charlie Murphy: Matt is a friend of mine. We hit all sorts of topics from how to pay for college, how to navigate relationships in this business, to why actors might read reviews. And we play a truly rousing game of two truths and a lie, inspired by many bluffs over the poker table.

[0:44] Charlie Murphy: I hope you all had some smashing Halloweens. We had a great time this weekend taking Solvay around as a whale. She said she wanted to be a blue whale, and we made that happen. She was a very cute blue whale this weekend at a party.

[0:58] Charlie Murphy: Um and now Elizabeth has an invited dress tonight. We're wishing her lots and lots of broken legs as I record this on Halloween Day. And Dada is really looking forward to some trick-or-treating. Um it's last year she really couldn't appreciate the holiday for what it was, and so I'm really excited to like see her actually go around and do some extra trick-or-treating.

[1:19] Charlie Murphy: Again, she'll be reprising as the big blue whale, and I think she's gonna book it. I think she's gonna book this part. Uh for those of you who are listening who are high school juniors or younger, if you're not already an MTCA student, I hope you've already signed up for our upcoming junior workshop.

[1:34] Charlie Murphy: If not, the link is in our show notes. Do please click and sign up now. That is a free hour, free webinar for an hour on November 8th from 8 p.m. to 9 p.m. Eastern on Zoom, a chance to learn a bit more about the college process, learn how to make a roadmap for your own personal journey, and just see how MTCA may be able to help you along the way.

[1:56] Charlie Murphy: There's of course no obligation beyond that free hour, so if you or someone you know might be interested, please do join us. And for my current MTCA students, have you all signed up for a mock yet? That's me putting in my little stern dad voice where you better do a mock audition.

[2:11] Charlie Murphy: Um we are in the thick of mock season with our third one coming up this weekend. But just a warning to those out there who are waffling or like, I'm gonna sign up soon. These do fill up, and you only have a few more chances to attend this year.

[2:22] Charlie Murphy: We just have two more mocks in New York City after this weekend. That's December 3rd and January 6th. We have one more in San Diego on December 10th, and then our online mock that's November 18th and 19th. So please do make sure you get into one of those mocks.

[2:36] Charlie Murphy: We hear each year from our family how invaluable they are in their process in preparing for the live aspects of the auditions that go beyond the pre-screen. Sometimes I talk about those as like audition skills, what it is to audition and how that's different than just working on the material individually one on one.

[2:51] Charlie Murphy: All right, enough of that. Happy Halloween to you all. Let's get to this conversation with the great Scott himself, Matthew Scott.

[3:04] Charlie Murphy: Well, we are so excited to be joined by Matt Scott. Uh Matt Scott has a BFA from Carnegie Mellon. Uh, he's been on Broadway in the original Jersey Boys and American in Paris.

[3:16] Charlie Murphy: He also did the national tour of that, Sondheim on Sondheim, A Catered Affair, Grand Horizons. Um, also tons of regional credits, some television, All My Children is in there. We'll mail some soap delights. Um he also wrote and performed a beautiful one-man show called The Jesus Year About Fatherhood, both the loss of his and becoming a father himself, which I got to see a few weeks back at 54 Below. It was excellent.

[3:37] Charlie Murphy: Um, for a while he was the creative education director of A Broadway Dreams, which is a not-for-profit arts organization. We'll chat about that. He's on faculty at Manhattan School of Music and NYU. We'll chat about that.

[3:48] Charlie Murphy: He's also someone who I had to check the footage to determine this, but I think owes me about a hundred dollars in poker winnings so far in terms of how this has gone back and forth. So uh this podcast is just the beginning of that repayment.

[4:02] Matt Scott: I won't pay, I will not pay.

[4:03] Charlie Murphy: I know, nor will we for this podcast. But welcome on. How are you doing today? How are you feeling?

[4:06] Matt Scott: Good. It's good to see you.

[4:09] Charlie Murphy: Um let's start where we start, everyone. I'd love to take you back to 16, 17 year old, Matt. If you can remember a little bit of this process for yourself as you were looking at schools, I'd love to kind of start with like, what did you think you were looking for?

[4:22] Charlie Murphy: So, what did 17 year old Matt, as he was going, it's this or this or this, what were you thinking about in terms of your list? What were you thinking about in terms of what you wanted out of a scholastic and a training experience? What was sort of in your brain then?

[4:33] Matt Scott: It's it's so wild because now I spend so much time helping guide people through this process. How little knowledge I had at the time, truly little knowledge I had at the time. And um I was very reliant on uh a couple of teachers, and you know, uh you just mentioned, you know, show about uh that I just did a couple weeks ago about my dad. You know, my dad passed when I was just a kid, and ironically enough, was the head of financial aid for a university.

[5:04] Matt Scott: Um, but when the time came to apply to colleges, I knew nothing about applying to schools. I knew nothing about getting money from schools, um, which really is the one thing I hold my ground on to this day with kids is don't go into debt over college. It's it's not worth it, it's not worth it. But at the time I knew nothing about that.

[5:24] Matt Scott: So um, you know, I knew that I really love doing what I do. I don't think I ever outside of my brain express that to anyone. Doing what you do is what acting, singing and acting, musical theater specifically. What was the dream at the 70s? Yeah, it was musical theater. I I came alive, you know, on stage as a kid, and um, but I also played sports. You and I talk about this a lot, you know, you're you're an athlete too, and so I come from a very athletic family, and so sports was a part of my upbringing.

[5:55] Matt Scott: So I the musical always happened during uh basketball season. So, and I love basketball, so I wanted to play basketball. And it wasn't until my freshman year in high school when I opted to not do the musical that I I regretted that deeply because I I sat in the audience uh for Westside Story and I thought I this is what I should be doing. Like, come on, this is where I should be.

[6:14] Matt Scott: So from that point on, I I started participating in high school, and I had a teacher who's still a very good friend who went to NYU. Uh he was uh valedictorian at NYU film and wound up coming back to to teach and uh was an incredible educator and incredible director. And he was like, What are you doing? Why are you not taking this seriously? Like, why are you not looking at schools? I said, I don't even know what that is.

[6:42] Matt Scott: You know, I was gonna go into education, um, be a teacher myself, both of my parents were teachers, and he said, You need to look at programs. So think about it this way: the information that is out there now at your fingertips just it didn't exist. Would you have been in a brochure? I mean, like really, because you're Googling it. This was a good idea. You couldn't Google it. You couldn't, you know, take virtual tours.

[7:07] Matt Scott: Uh-huh. Um, you just had to know something or or know somebody who knew something. And luckily, he knew that there were a handful of programs that that I could pursue this in.

[7:18] Matt Scott: Um, it's unlike now, Charlie, where there's you know, nearly 300 programs that will take I think almost easier. I'll bet most of our students would sit there and go, Oh, I wish there was a brochure with 15 options that I could as opposed to 250 or whatever. I mean, to realistically, how many can a 17-year-old really look like?

[7:36] Charlie Murphy: Well, no, you can't, and it's so um it's it's a whole family process. Like the looking at schools and evaluating where to go and the cost and the what the program offers, and oh, but I also want to study psychology and oh, I really want to take a photography class. Great. I always say that school exists somewhere. I don't know where, but it's your job to figure out what that is.

[8:01] Matt Scott: And now all that information is online. What does the curriculum look like? How many electives are you allowed? Um, you know, can you double major if you're not a major in the musical theater program? Can you take classes there? Can you can you take a dance class? You know, can you pay for voice lessons from a voice teacher who anyways? That stuff was so foreign to me.

[8:20] Matt Scott: All I knew was um, you know, I had a handful of people who who believed in me and that I could do this. And uh and one of my teachers said to me, you know, you really should look at Carnegie Mellon. That was really the first school that was ever mentioned to me.

[8:34] Matt Scott: And um I said, Carnegie Mellon. So where's that? And he said, Pittsburgh. And I was like, I don't want to go to school in Ohio. Oh dare. And you're from Jersey yourself, so yeah. And uh he's like, it's in Pennsylvania, and I was like, What? And now I'll tell you why I thought that.

[8:51] Matt Scott: Do you know those tricks, those trucks that are that go down the interstate that say Pitt, Ohio? Pit. I just saw them as a kid. I said, Pittsburgh, Ohio. That's so interesting. I don't want to go to school in Ohio. He said, It's in Pennsylvania. It's a fantastic school. You know, so at that point, because I wasn't Googling anything, and because my mother didn't have any knowledge of this world, and no one in my family did what I do, I was reliant on somebody who knew about the reputation of a school.

[9:20] Matt Scott: The other interesting thing is, and now it's so cost prohibitive, obviously, but I went and visited. And you can take virtual tours now, or or or we often say to a kid, you know, wait to visit until you've been accepted. Right. You know. But I went and visited beforehand, and that was hard for me because I instantly fell in love with it.

[9:42] Matt Scott: Yeah. Yep. And I don't know if I had gone to Michigan first, if I would have felt that way, or CCM or Shenandoah, or um Penn State. I don't know. Maybe I would have fallen in love with them. Maybe it was just the idea that it was college and it was a campus and there were beautiful girls everywhere. And uh, you know, it it that was part of it.

[10:03] Matt Scott: Um so what I was looking for, I don't really know. I knew that I wanted to do what I wanted to do. Yeah, I knew I wanted to do it at a high level. Here are the two things I I was very aware of at the time, though. Um, I spent a lot of my time as a kid singing, and I was often complimented for my abilities as a singer. So if I, you know, I did Merrily We Roll Along when I was 16 years old in high school. It was the first time somebody said, What an incredible actor? And the minute I heard what an incredible actor, that's all I wanted to hear for the rest of my days.

[10:35] Matt Scott: I knew that being an actor would be more important to me than singing well. Um, and that I didn't want one to overshadow the other, and where could I go that was gonna train me as an actor, but I could still sing. So that was why Carnegie Mellon was important. Number two was um socially, you know, I didn't want to be around people that felt pretentious.

[11:00] Matt Scott: Uh-huh. Um, I didn't want to I didn't want to feel intimidated or or overwhelmed because even though I was a confident kid, confident, and even though I looked at the age of, you know, 16, like I like honestly, like this, I could grow a beard. So he's putting himself as saying very handsome for those of you.

[11:17] Matt Scott: Right, even though it was extremely, and they won't see this, right? So we can stick to that. No, no, that's that lies. Yeah, verify. All right, edit this part out. Um, but even so I knew that the kind of kid I wanted to be around, like that was important to me. Um, because I have three older brothers, nobody in my family does this.

[11:36] Matt Scott: And again, to go back to that teacher who kind of guided me through this, he said, I'm so excited for you to go. This is when I was about to head off to see a movie. He said, I'm so excited for you to go. You're finally gonna be around people who can talk about what you want to talk about.

[11:50] Matt Scott: And you're gonna find yourself in a diner at 2 a.m. talking about your favorite cast album or dissecting a movie that you just saw. I'm so excited for you. And that's really what was important to me. So when I by going to CMU first and getting taken around, I remember, you know, the senior at the time who took me around, um, and then meeting some of the kids and sitting in on the classes, I was like, oh, these kids, these are my kids.

[12:15] Matt Scott: And I went and visited a couple other programs that I got into. I won't, you know, I I can name them. It's it's there's nothing wrong with naming it. I I got into um Rutgers in in New Jersey just acting, um, and I got a full ride there. And I got waitlisted at Carnegie Mellon.

[12:33] Matt Scott: And I think that's why going to visit ahead of time was kind of made it so much harder because I I really wanted it. With this possibility now. Totally. And I got waitlisted on my birthday. And so I was set to go to Rutgers.

[12:48] Matt Scott: And I had visited and I'd sat in on an acting class, and I was like, okay, I'll take voice lessons and I'll do all that on the side. You know, I'm gonna focus on being an actor. It was enough for me that James Gandolfini went to Rutgers. That was enough for me.

[13:02] Matt Scott: And um, but I knew where I wanted to be, and I got pulled off the waitlist at Carnegie Mellon in July. Yep.

[13:25] Matt Scott: At this point, my father's been gone for about five years. You know, my mom works as a teacher, she's got four kids. One of them's out of the house at least, but you know, she got her hands full and she can't afford $60,000 a year, and I've been accepted to a program that's gonna pay me a full ride. And um, you already know what your financial aid package looks like at Carnegie Mellon because I was accepted into the school academically, uh-huh, but waitlisted as an actor. Right, so you've gotten your offer at this point. So I got my offer and I knew there was no money or very little. So she was away. I was playing basketball with my friend Brendan, and uh my oldest brother calls and says, "Hey, you should come home.

You just got a letter. It looks very thick." If you recall, the acceptance letter of Carnegie Mellon is called, isn't it called like the big fat letter or something like that? Something ridiculous. Um and I was like, okay, and I knew what it was, and I came home and I walked in the kitchen, I opened it and I pulled it out and said congratulations and all that. And I stared at it and I folded it back up neatly and I put it in the envelope and left and went back out to play basketball. He was like, "Where are you going?" I was like, "I'm gonna go play basketball." I think I waited almost 24 hours to call my mom. I said, "Hey, just want you to know this happened." And her response was, "Okay, thank you.

Thank you for telling me." Not a thought in my mind that I was going, you know, because I couldn't afford it. And she came home two days later and sat me down and said, "You know, I talked to your uncle Jack, I talked to your uncle Paul. And they said to me, 'What, you know, how many doors are going to be open for him, do you think? Just give me a number. What's the difference for him if he goes to this place, you know? You could study business at any college, and you can, you know, be a pharmacist, and you can go to a, you know, as long as you have a degree, you're gonna get a job somewhere. What's the difference if he goes to this program?'" And she said, "I imagine it's a, you know, significant that his life will be different, his training will be different, his all of it."

And they said, "Well, then you can't afford not to send him, so you gotta figure it out." And uh, you know, I broke into tears, you know, because I knew how hard that was. I knew that my oldest brother had a dream school. You know, he wanted desperately to go to Fordham University, but they were like, "You can't afford it, you have to go to Trenton State, College of New Jersey." You know, so like, why was that any different? This was, and when my mom made that decision, I was instantly overwhelmed and grateful and all of that. And um, and it did change my life. And was it just that she ended up paying the, she had figured out did you take out loans? How did you navigate that?

[16:07] Matt Scott: Took out loans. Um, I don't remember if we called and asked for more aid, which is what I now tell people to do, but I don't think we did. Again, the irony of having, you know, a father who was the head of financial aid, who would have been able to write an email or not an email, but you know, make a phone call and we would have had more, probably would have had more money or something like that. And I went through the first year, and um at the end of my first year, or halfway through my first year or so, Tony McKay, our acting teacher, he pulled me aside and said, "You know, because of you, we have had to really rethink the way we auditioned kids and who we put on the wait list." He said, "The fact that we almost let you go is a huge mistake."

[16:52] Matt Scott: That's so nice. Yeah, it was really incredible. And um, and that summer between my freshman and sophomore year, um sitting there going, I don't know if I can go back. It's, you know, my mom's already taken out loans. I've already spent the money that was I've inherited from my dad, you know, when he passed, which wasn't very much, you know, because I got what social security or something till I was 18. Plus, I had work jobs and things, but you know, put a little bit of money aside, but it was all gone at this point. And I was doing um carousel at the Paper Mill Playhouse. I was sitting at a table with Christian Knoll and Rob McClure. I remember this at a Mongolian barbecue place in Milvern, New Jersey.

Christian had gone to CMU in the voice department, and uh my phone rang and it was my mom, and a new financial aid package had shown up on my door uh with significantly more money in it. Um, and I came back into the restaurant, you know, in tears. A lot of these stories ended with me in the cried in the show, I cried on your show. It was like a lot of people. I cried at the poker table a lot too, which is odd.

[17:54] Matt Scott: That's all a tactic though. Please don't call me Charlie. Please don't call. Um wait, can we talk a little bit about your mom of it all together? I want to, you know, so many of the parents who kind of navigating this process, yeah, it's impossible when even if they say I'm taking this off and this is gonna be my full-time job for six months, and that's all I'm gonna do. Or when they have two parents working toward it, how did your mom with four kids help you if she helped you? Like, how did you navigate this alone then in terms of you know, just visit, even taking all these visits, take you to the auditions. And how did that all that work?

[18:23] Matt Scott: I don't think she made me realize how difficult it was or how hard it might have been on her. Um, which is what parents do. You now know this, you know. It's like, oh, I make Sylvain know every single owe me. I think the white so bad. By the way, I thought this was a podcast just entirely about diapers. I came prepared with examples and died. I gotta explain what's going on with the face, too. So it makes sense, yeah. I um she just kind of did it, she just kind of dove in knowing nothing. And um, I will say that, you know, on his deathbed essentially, sounds so dramatic, but you know, it's true. She he turned to my mom and said, "You need to make sure that Matthew goes anywhere he wants to go."

And I think, you know, he too realized, you know, he went my dad went to college on the full baseball scholarship, and like I said, my oldest brother desperately wanted to go to one college and you know, but got into another one that they could afford, and it was a state school. I think he knew. He's like, "No, no, this is different. You know, if you're gonna invest in this, you gotta invest in it." And so she just did it.

[19:34] Matt Scott: Um, I took all the loans on myself. And you know, I know people in their 40s and their 50s who are still paying their college loans down. I was very fortunate. I I was, I think I'd done my fourth Broadway show, and Kirsten and I were about to head out on tour with An American in Paris, and I paid my last loan off. Awesome. And um it's true. Because in your in your 30s or something, is this early 30s, early to mid 30s, and um I and honestly, when I was staring down the barrel at it and really looking down the line, I was like, I'm gonna be paying these off forever. And then one day, you know, one of the the bills came through, and I was like, that's how much is left? I'm just paying that off. And I just did, and it was wild um to be done with it because I know so many people who it's still part of their, you know, and you get used to it, it's like a second rent.

[20:23] Matt Scott: Well, it doesn't make sense it's it's so it's like now when you want to get a mortgage, or now when you want to figure that out that you're like, oh no, I've got this still hanging on my um, but let's get into the college experience a little too. So I I'm you're other than wildly and pressing Tony McKay, um you can give me any of your sort of uh college uh experience, but I also love to talk a little bit about Kirsten. So you met your lovely wife who's uh the amazing Kirsten Bracken. Um, and I think it's a really rare thing. I mean, I don't know that many people who who met, navigated college together, so sort of the metamorphosis of high school into college, college into professional life, young adulthood into now being parents. So maybe we'll track that through a little bit the conversation in general, but tell me about that college experience and then sort of you guys, you know, now being married.

[21:04] Matt Scott: It's so wild because it just we we started. I was a fresh uh senior when Kirsten was a freshman. Um we started dating and we didn't stop. I mean, I said to her today, um, it's really funny. Last night we were we were going out. My wife was in uh show called Big Fish, and it happened on Broadway 10 years ago, and last night they had a reunion, and so I was done teaching at NYU all day, and I met her, and then we went and you know, went out, which we don't do, but we went out. And as I was waiting for her Columbus Circle, you know, I ran into one of our old uh colleagues, um multi-emmy nominated Anthony Kerrigan, uh Noho Hank, you know, from Barry, um, just like the sweetest, loveliest guy in the world.

As I was waiting for Kirsten, he was he was with um, you know, somebody else that we went to college with, and um I was so so happy to see them. I hadn't seen them in forever, and he's just like the the they're the nicest. And then Kirsten came and joined, and we were all just like laughing and reminiscing and all that. And as we were leaving, you know, we said something like, "We're so happy for you, you know, you guys look amazing, da-da-da." And and they were like, "Well, we're just trying to follow in your footsteps, you know." And I was like, "What?" I like I felt that as I was like leaving William Sonoma. I was like, "Oh, that's you know, that's so incredible and beautiful, and right, right, of course, yes."

[22:28] Matt Scott: We've been together for 20 years. Um when when Kirsten came in, you know, to to CMU, and she kind of waltz through the door, you know. I was on my way out essentially, and I was like, "Well, she's a very, very pretty, isn't she?" But pretty enough to wait three years. Let's have some fun, is what I thought. Um yeah, and and so I said to her, I said, "Did I see a thing, you know, that that that so and so danced in?" And she was like, "Well, she wasn't in my grade. She came like two years later," and I was like, "I think I was back at CMU a lot when we were and I was." I was doing Jersey Boys on Broadway, and I would take the day off and go, or and people would be like, "You're going to Pittsburgh to see your girlfriend from college." And I was like, "Yeah. Yeah, I am."

[23:16] Matt Scott: Um, and uh, and we did that, and we, you know, stayed together and then Kirsten graduated and we instantly moved in together, which was which was pretty wild. So that was a learning experience. And then three and a half years later we were married, and then that was a learning experience. Like, and then everything changed again. Uh-huh. Um, and then we've been married for 15 years this year, and we have two kids, as you know, but we have a two and a half year old and an almost one year old, and then that changed everything again. So, you know, as you're growing, how are you?

[23:52] Matt Scott: Yeah, how are you navigating that? Well, is it that uh Kirsten is just incredibly patient with all of your foibles? I mean, what what what is it that sort of like enabled because I just think of like I changed so much in those 15 years that you're describing. Like, I I can't imagine a person who could be with me through that entire journey. What are you experiencing through that?

[24:11] Matt Scott: Well, we you know, because of this business, like the nature of this business, it's not like two people, you know. Let's be honest, you know, we both grew up in places where if you went home now to visit, you'd run into people that you grew up with because they didn't necessarily leave their hometown. Nothing wrong with it, by the way. I by the way, I only live 25 minutes from where I grew up in New Jersey, so it's not like I escaped to some you know exotic location, but um, but my point being is like, you know, you go to school, you get a degree, you marry your high school sweetheart or your college sweetheart, which is the thing we did. You know, you get your job and you stay in your job, or you get promoted, or you move to another company because of what we do is so unpredictable, and every year is just constant change, and and there are so many highs and so many lows, and there are times when you're riding so high but your partner is not, and then vice versa, and then you're both riding high together and you're making so much money and then you're making no money. Um it's it's uh that's the the roller coaster like kind of challenging part.

[25:16] Matt Scott: And that has been really difficult. I'll be honest, it's just been really difficult. We've at this point now that we have kids though, we look back so gratefully upon what we've gotten to do. And I think, you know, my one wish is that we got to do all that, but we still had kids when I was younger because I because I wish I was a younger dad. Um but that but I'm not, and so that's what it is. You know, I will be 60 when my one-year-old is out of high school, which is nuts.

[25:44] Matt Scott: I mean, we're nearly in the same boat, but yeah.

[25:47] Matt Scott: Yeah. And so um, but you know this. I mean, it's it's communication, and it we're actors, we should be able to communicate. And there are times when that was really difficult, and we would go to therapy, or we'd have, you know, huge fights, or we'd have conversations where we would say, "I you need to be more vulnerable, you need to talk to me." Um, you know, in my show, I I kind of touch on, you know, when I started to deal with anxiety, which I obviously had all my life, but only really came to realize in my early 30s. And so once I start to get help for that, you know, that also gave me the ability to talk and cope in a different way. And um, you know, you look across the table at this person, you're like, "Do they look happy?

Are they happy? Like, what do I need to do? What do how I need to work on something here?" Um, and sometimes they'll they'll be able to put a finger on it, or you'll be able to put a finger on it and you address it, and then sometimes you just struggle.

[26:45] Matt Scott: You know, think about the fact that nothing about our spouse and our lives is nine to five. So, you know, I really need you between these hours. Well, I can't be there. I've got to go to work. You're going to work when everyone else is putting their kids to bed or having to sit down for dinner. That's really difficult. It's really difficult. It's really, really difficult. We find also the constant change is hard. It's just if it was always, you know, okay, great, you work at night and I'm fine, that's easy enough. We can figure it out, but it's the switching and the changing, and now you're not, and now you are.

[27:22] Charlie Murphy: Already, which I really like. Because it's something I feel, you know, we try to really emphasize on the show all the different paths that you can have to success. And of course, we know that's true, right? You don't have to have gone to a most competitive musical theater school in order to get on Broadway. We know that's true, but I'd love to hear, you know, you talked about the idea of, hey, it seems like for you, you thought going in and maybe still felt this way that Carnegie Mellon opened certain doors for you. Talk to me about the sort of graduation into showcase into representation. Because, you know, those are the primary doors we're talking about opening, is the first couple years. It's not like you're 40 years old and someone's like, "You went to Carnegie Mellon, here's a job," right?

[27:57] Matt Scott: Of course not, right? No, but absolutely not at this point. No, how did it open the doors for you? Like, what did it do for you? And how was that path for you? You know, because again, I can't emphasize enough that it's not the only way to do it, but I do also think when people go, "Well, why do I spend all this time and this money and this pressure to try to get into these schools?" You know, it is like going to Duke if you're gonna be in the NBA or whatever, right? It doesn't guarantee you anything, but having gone to Duke, you're more likely to go in the NBA than Weber State or whatever, even though that's still be Damian Lillard or whatever from Weber's. I think for the same reason that, you know, people are looking at Duke and going, "Where's my next crop?" Right? So the eyes are already on that program because the track record is good.

[28:38] Charlie Murphy: And it's not like people, well, they do. If they come to showcase, they're scouting you. You know, and was that you? Did you get an agent right out of showcase who then led you to stuff?

[28:49] Matt Scott: I did. I mean, the only difference between my generation and the ones now is that there's so much material online, there's so many videos of these kids doing everything from every angle under beautiful lights and costumes, and that didn't exist. So now showcases, I think people are like, "I don't really need to go, I'll watch it online," or "I'll just Google the kid who I'm gonna have a meeting with." And there's way more showcases, certainly, than there were back then. And they can find 50 videos and it's too much. With us, you know, I think the difference with Carnegie Mellon is I knew that there were not as many competitive programs. So people were looking toward those programs for the talent.

And if there were, I didn't know about them. And then I'm not sure that I knew much about showcase and that that had much influence, and which is funny because now it's such a big deal to people, they're like, "Well, does that school have a showcase? What do they do? What's their track record?" I really didn't know anything about it.

[29:51] Matt Scott: I will say though, my year was the very first year that CMU did a showcase entirely on their own. Up until the year before me, showcases would combine with other schools. And so it would be like, you know, going to, um, what are those like, you know, concert cabaret conventions where like you could walk into a different room and see a different act and be like, "Yeah, let's book them for our tiny little club in Vegas," and then, you know, Unifieds of Showcase. The Unified of Showcase. And so CMU was like, "Well, we have a good track record and we're well known. Why don't we just rent a space and do it on our own?" We did it at the Daryl Roth II, the DR2 in Union Square, you know, 99 seats or whatever.

And we did four shows, I think, and people came. My very first agent was VRS bound Redantian Shaw out of, um, and the funny part about that is, you know, Mark Redanti has a strong relationship with Carnegie Mellon and a good track record with CMU kids right out of college and all that. And my godfather, my uncle Jack, who I referenced earlier as one of the people who said to my mother, "You can't afford not to send him there," started calling, leaving me messages in my senior year of college. "Hey, you know, Tim, Tim Marshall, who I grew up with, or my oldest brother and his oldest brother played baseball together. And I saw Tim do musicals in high school, and he was Neville in Edwin Drood, and you know, like I watched him on stage.

Tim's an agent now. Tim Marshall's an agent now. You know, you should send me, give me stuff so I can send to him," and I was like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." And he called me again, "You know, Tim's an agent, send me your stuff." I was like, "Yeah, Uncle Jack, it's great, you know." You know what? Until I finally realized Tim was an agent with Belma Redantian Shaw, which is the only agency that I cared about signing with. So I was like, "Oh my god, he's an agent!" And so I sent my stuff and I had a conversation with Tim. And, you know, we did a New York and an LA showcase. The LA showcase happens about a month later. But I was signed with them out of New York. So I went to LA with them with an agent and I met with the LA office.

And, um, I knew I was gonna stay in New York and do musicals and all that. The decision as parents and these kids do, kids don't really know is that, you know, then when you're out of school, you have to decide where you're gonna go, at least set up camp. It doesn't mean you can't go back and forth between the two places, but you know, if you're gonna go to LA, you're establishing yourself, and that's gonna take several years, and so you're not gonna be likely popping back and forth. And I knew musicals happened in New York City, and that's where I would be. So yeah, so I was very fortunate, and they signed me.

[32:29] Matt Scott: I remember going into other meetings. I had some horrible meetings, and I had one woman literally falling asleep across the desk talking to me. I would say her name. I wish I could say her name because it's such an incredible name, but people might know who she is. But it's such a good name, and she was falling asleep. Just banana fan of Fana. Give us a good rhyming. Give us a few. I don't need I don't even need to. I'm just gonna tell you what her name was because I don't think she's alive anymore. Her name is Honey Raider. Honey Raider. Fantastic. And she looked, she was falling asleep. You don't think she's alive anymore because of the—no, I mean, I think I looked up and I was like, "Oh," um, she was falling asleep and she looked across and she said, "I'm gonna cut right to the point. You're never gonna work with those eyebrows."

[33:14] Charlie Murphy: Oh my god.

[33:15] Matt Scott: That's an LA meeting.

[33:16] Charlie Murphy: Tell me that's an LA meeting.

[33:17] Matt Scott: That was New York.

[33:18] Charlie Murphy: No, get out of job.

[33:19] Matt Scott: That was like my L. And I was like, "Great, you can lose 10 more pounds." Like, "I can? I don't think I can. How?"

[33:24] Matt Scott: And so I was like, "Oh, oh, oh my, okay." And then another meeting I went into, they went, "Just tell me, have you already met with Mark Redante?" And I said, "Yes." And they go, "Well, then why are you here?" So it's like I'm being polite and doing my job is what I've done. I was like, "Oh my God." So, anyways, I signed with them. Those were my first agents at a school, and I was with them for over a decade and did really, really well by them, and my wife is still with them. They're fantastic agents, and I love them.

[33:54] Charlie Murphy: Talk to me about those first couple years. So what was the now journey to—because I think most people in college right now, their focus is really, I remember certainly senior year was an agent, get an agent, right? But then there's also the thing of like keeping an agent means getting booking work.

[34:10] Matt Scott: Yeah.

[34:10] Charlie Murphy: So what were those years of, you know, are you getting a ton of auditions right off the bat? Are you getting a lot of traction? I mean, sort of what was the launch for you at 324?

[34:19] Matt Scott: So, you know, I came to the city with a roommate, and we started looking for apartments to live in, and we were in the back of a taxi cab, and it was so overwhelming. The cost was so overwhelming, and we looked at like five. The cab alone, I was like, "If I can't pay for this cab, how am I gonna pay for an apartment?" And I looked at him, I said, "Jonathan, I can't do this." And I was like, "I can't, I can't." So I lived at home for—I lived at home while I was on Broadway doing Jersey Boys. I lived in the commuting. Yeah, got in a bus. And one, I saved a lot of money, but the real reason I did it is because I didn't have any money. You know, I had to defer my loans during the first year or so because I was so overwhelmed.

And I would go out on auditions and think that every audition I was was gonna turn into a job. You know, I don't think I was prepared for how many you really have to go on. And especially when you're young and people want you in the ensemble of your show, you have to also be like a phenomenal dancer. And I'm a good mover, but I don't—these dance calls, I'd be like, "Oh my God."

[35:28] Charlie Murphy: I remember like going into your mover.

[35:34] Matt Scott: You say good mover? Yeah, I wouldn't say good, actually. You're right. Yeah, good to be graphic. I wouldn't even say mover.

[35:35] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[35:39] Matt Scott: Let's edit that out. I remember going to the dance call for Good Vibrations, the Beach Boys musical, and the choreographer, John Carafa, to a room full of men and women saying, "And feel free to just take off whatever clothing you don't want to have on." Oh my.

[36:00] Charlie Murphy: And I looked around, I was like, "What?" I was like, "Surely I have all the clothing that I want on right now." I did that at all. Can I put on some of the things that other people take off? And I looked around and everyone was like, "Whoa, shirts off," you know, just in their bras and their underwear. And I was like, "First of all, awesome. Second of all, no." I was so overwhelmed. So I had gotten on a bus from my mom's house, like, "I'm gonna be on Broadway because I'm booking Good Vibrations today." And of course, didn't even get past like the second round or whatever. But I was so intimidated by it. And I was like, "This is horrible. This is horrible." Like, how many of these do I have to go out on?

And I did some readings and I did some workshops and I, you know, I had some connections to people through others. I in the time when I was in college and working in the summers, you know, I met and worked with great people. And so my friend Andrea Burns and I, I did West Side Story with Andrea Burns at the Muni, and you know, and then she was like, "Well, come sing in this concert that Seth Rodetsky's doing." And so I was like meeting, I was doing fun things at the age of 22, 23, but I was not booking a Broadway show. And those are not paying the bills.

[37:12] Matt Scott: No, you know, no, just like, you know, but you're excited by every little thing that comes along, every crappy reading and no and all that. And so I'm like, "Okay," and I would go and do that and then, you know, hope for another big audition. I eventually, you know, when Jersey Boys came along, I'm trying to remember exactly what happened, but you can't. I was in the original company, but I joined later. And so I didn't—I wasn't there through rehearsals and previews. I was the very first, and the reason—and I always hesitate to say it, but everyone in that company is like your original company. I always hesitate to say it because I'm like, "Well, I joined after, you know, you started. I didn't replace anyone."

The show began and they were like, "We need more covers. We don't have a solid cover for the role of Tommy DeVito and Bob Gaudio. And so we need to add to this arsenal." And the show was being well received, and so they could afford to do that. So I went in, you know, immediately after, and I remember thinking like, "Okay, cool, you know, like Jersey Boys, that me. I'm from New Jersey and what's this about?" And my agent at the time was like, "Hey, you know, it's kind of a last minute thing, maybe a day to prep or a day and a half." And he said, "Should I go see it?" And he was like, "Nah, you don't need to go see it, you're from New Jersey. You know what it's about." It's like, "That's not great advice." I went anyway, and I sat through it and I was like, "Oh my god. First of all, I do know what this is about. Second of all, I have to be in this."

[39:49] Matt Scott: Yeah. I went home. The only thing was, you know, they wanted everybody to sing all the falsetto-e stuff, the Frankie stuff too, because there's voice doubling off stage and even on stage, you know, to kind of enhance the sound and, you know, alleviate some of the higher, like harder stuff, you know, when he's really like in the throes of the second act and it's really tough to do all that. And I was like, "I don't know how to sing like that. Carnegie Mellon didn't teach me how to sing like that." Do you know what I mean? That wasn't the training. It might have been different, you know, at a time, you know, with some of your classmates when they were there because the show was in existence. And when a show is hot, you start to teach to the show.

It's like the SATs, it's like, "Let's teach to the test," right? But that didn't really exist in the musical theater world. There was a tenor, you're gonna belt a beautiful high note, you're not gonna at all in this weird falsetto plays for a long period of time. It didn't at all. But by the time Jersey Boys became successful, though, when you—let's say when you were in college, like there were kids who were in their voice lessons singing those songs, you know, and good for Nick Cosgrove, right? Because then he got to go off and do the show, you know. But he probably worked on that music in a voice room with Claudia or Gary and was able to put it in his body and go, "I know," or these kids today who are like, "You're gonna play D."

[40:00] Matt Scott: Revan Hansen regionally, you're gonna play it. So you need to be singing all those songs now. Um, but that wasn't the case for me. I was singing RH and I was singing Sondheim, and I was, you know, like a a a uh baritenner, or what I say is a baritender, um, I guess with the possibility of some high notes every once in a while. And I thought, well, how the hell am I gonna do that? And I remember going home to my childhood piano and sitting down and just starting to plunk away, you know, the chords to Sherry. And I started to sing, and I was like, Oh, okay, I can do that. It doesn't have to sound pretty, like I can do that. And I had this confidence that I could do it, and I walked in the room and I did all that, and um, they loved it, and they gave me one piece of advice.

Um does uh Mackinac the director had said, when he comes back tomorrow, he needs to look like one of the guys. Now I'm so glad I had seen the show, right? Because again, you're not looking up even at that time, 2005, you're not looking up production photos on your computer. It was still 20 years ago, um, nearly. And so, but I'd seen the show, so I put on a nice suit and I slipped my hair back and I did all the things, and they were I came in and they were like, Yes, that's the guy. Um, and then when I went into the show, you know, thinking I was gonna only be there to cover Tommy and maybe Bob, they were like, now you're a Frankie cover, you're a Tommy cover, you're a Bob cover, you're this, that, and the other.

And I wound up covering, I did the show for two years on and off. I did it for a year and a half. I left, came back a year and a half later, and then did another six months on stage in a musician actor track. So I actually played guitar on stage and did all that. Um, and over the course of that time I played nine of those roles. Wow. Um, and in the height of that, you know, when I was 20 something years old, the first time out, and the show was really hot and successful, and everyone was coming. I was on all the time. I mean, I did I had a weekend where I played five roles in four days. Because I did a Thursday, a Friday, a Saturday, a Saturday, and a Sunday, all as different characters, you know, and you can only do that when you're young.

[42:12] Charlie Murphy: Do you feel like school prepared you for swinging? I mean, that's one of the things I think more people are talking about that, like, okay, we're gonna try to add that into the program. But like, how do you learn that? I mean, it's a very specific musical theater.

[42:22] Matt Scott: They did not, they did not. I don't even think I knew what it was. And you know, thank God for educators like Caitlin Hopkins, who I'm sure is somebody who on this podcast has talked about how now there is a curriculum for that. Umkins yourself, if you can believe it. Episode three. Yeah, yeah. I know. And she and I talked about it, and I'm like, oh my god, that's so smart. Because yeah, that's a gig. That's a huge job. Like, if somebody doesn't know what they're in for or know how to do that, they don't know how to get that job, and that's a job that exists, and it's a big job, and it's been around since the beginning of it all of this. So why aren't we teaching about that? And um, and also, but I mean, think of it this way like, you know, even my kids in NYU are double cast in shows right now.

That's not understudying, it's not that, but there is something about like, okay, I'm not in rehearsal today, I better watch, yeah, I better absorb, I better learn. Yeah, um, but swinging is a different thing. I have a different, yeah. I have to do that. Swinging is so different than understudy. I mean, understanding I think people have been prepared for from high school or whatever, but the idea of swinging four roles, I mean, that that's a very different skill set. I had a friend who said, you know, you're going to learn very quickly. An older guy who was in like 12 Bravo shows, he's like, you're gonna learn really quickly if you're good at this. I was like, what does that mean? He's like, you know, you're gonna find out very, very early because something's gonna happen, you're gonna get thrown on, and if you're not prepared, you're it's gonna be, you know.

[43:40] Matt Scott: And what happened? I was um hired to do the show. I had a two-week rehearsal process where they were gonna start me on rehearsals as Tommy DeVito, and that's all they were gonna rehearse me for for two weeks, and then the next two weeks another character, and the next week another character. I was there for six days, and they called me into the the stage manager's office on a Friday night and said, Hey, tomorrow Michael might be out, and you're gonna probably have to go on as Joe Pesci. I was like, oh, how uh what? Like, I haven't even begun looking at that. They're like, be here at 11 a.m. I came at 11 a.m. I had memorized the lines and the scenes because he had the lines as Joe Pesci and then he had other lines.

Um I didn't get to watch the show that night with the perspective of looking at him. I was still looking at other stuff, or maybe I was backstage working on other things. Okay, I looked at the lines and memorized the lines, came in the next day, they walked me out on stage. They're like, you see those spike marks? That's where you move that table, that's where you move that camera. When the lights go off this afternoon, you won't be able to see those. So just look to your left and your right and see what's around you. I was like, oh God, okay. Here, let's go up to Ron now. You're gonna work with Ron Melrose on your harmonies, start to sing all the harmonies of the of the of the songs. I was like, Well, these are different harmonies than the ones I've been learning for Tommy DeVito.

These are all the Frankie harmonies. Yep, that's right. Okay. Go downstairs, you know, with um Peter, you're gonna work on the choreography to the opening hip hop number that starts the show that you are in. I was like, what is happening? And by one o'clock, I went up to the dressing room. I was like, I'm making my Broadway debut today in a track that I have never seen before. I got backstage at the start of the show. I was standing next to my friend Peter Gregis. The curtain, you know, is about to rise up. Um, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum. And we are supposed to duck under the curtain and come down and do like this French hip-hop thing that eventually turns into these, you know, turns into something else.

And just as the curtain rises, I look over at Peter with a big smile on my face and say, I don't have a microphone on. And we stormed down the stage. And um, and I did the first 20 minutes of the show without a microphone. Just tapping into his mic at that point. Yeah. Just shouting. And um, and I ran off stage, and the the the dressers are stripping me down and throwing the microphone in my hair, like not prettily, and just tucking it under a cap. And I am smiling. I'm not like freaking out. I am just like, this is awesome. Um, I did that, and then three days, four days later, on a Tuesday night, they said, Come down to the stage manager's office tomorrow morning, you're gonna go on for Donnie Kerr.

I said, Well, I certainly haven't looked at that yet. And they're like, That's right, be here at 11 a.m. I did the whole thing again, and within four days, I had learned two roles that I had not even begun looking at. And I called my friend who had said, You're gonna find out really quick if you're any good at this. And I said, I think I'm pretty good at this. You're pretty good at it. That's pretty good. Um, yeah, yeah. But you can only do that when you're young. You really can only do that when you're young, I think, because your brain you know this now, older and with kids, you your brain doesn't have the space, it doesn't have the capacity for it. I did cover right before the pandemic, before we had kids though, I I stood by for all three men in Grand Horizons on Broadway.

Well, not James Cromwell, who's 80-something years old, but um Michael Urey, Malik Pincioli, and Ben McKenzie. I stood by for those three guys, and um, they were off Michael and Ben were in scenes together as brothers yelling at each other, and there was no other cover. So I was like Sybil backstage, like talking to myself. And the lines overlapped, it's best wool play, and it's such a good play, and the lines overlapped, and you know, you had to know when to jump down the other one's you know throat. And um this that's the last time I did something like that.

[47:43] Matt Scott: Um, and it's why I think we can talk about it from a scholastic perspective is like it is such an avenue in for young people, in that it's something it's gonna be hard to get a 40-year-old actor to play some of those parts to do some of those.

[47:54] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, I want to talk about reviews. You're one of the few people uh um I've heard who will publicly admit, if you'll publicly do so, that you read your review. Because I feel so many actors who say, like, oh, I don't read them. And and I think they hear that so often that I think um I don't believe that. I don't I think they're lying, right? And I think young people need to hear that. I think there's nothing wrong with not reading your reviews. Um, but that if you are reading them, you're not some freak who like chooses. I think I read every review I was ever written about me. So tell me about that. What why what did what did you think? Why would you why would you not want to, yeah, why would you not like it's there's different levels of of the it is kind of somewhat messy.

[48:31] Matt Scott: Yeah, for those of you who aren't watching the YouTube, his reviews are posted on the wall. There's just like a newspaper that's right, just sort of covering it. I actually as well I've made t-shirts for my entire family. So that at dinner, well no at dinner I can look at the. Oh, they wear the shirts. I see, I see. They wear the shirt. Yeah, they wear the shirts. My children wear the shirts that's a onesie. You know, the Jesus here is a masterpiece. I'm like, thanks, pal. That's so nice of you to say that. Um I um, here's the thing. When I was in shows, you know, in New York, and I'm around all these people, seasoned professionals who are like, you know, we're gonna be here for a year, kid, or whatever, and then your show closes three months later.

Um, you would read the review because you'd be like, Let's read all the amazing things they're gonna say and how I'm gonna have a job for a year, and then you'd be like, Oh god, they did not like it at all. And you'd be really upset, you'd be really devastated. Um, and so you take the good with the bad. The other thing though is like, you know, this whole business is about having a thick skin, and I I'm pretty good at reasoning away people's actions. Um, I and I don't mean that like I can justify bad behavior or I can, you know, or just to make myself feel better. But if someone's being mean to me in life, or if somebody says something horrible, I had somebody just send me an awful text the other day, and you know, my my inclination was to just like go all New Jersey on them.

But in instead, I was like, this is just a really they're this is a person who's having a tough time, and this is why. And they don't they think that we're closer than we are, and they can say what they want to say, and it's and and it and in doing so they might have infect some change affect some change, but actually, what they're doing is just turning me off to them entirely, and I'm able to kind of reason away and not as be hurt by that. I'm often hurt by a lot of things, you know, from people I care about. So when I read a review, you know, if it's not great, it's not great. And um, and what am I gonna do about that? I know that thousands of people are gonna see it, and a lot of them are gonna really love it.

The thing I think it's important as an educator and somebody who's also creating and teaching young people is the thing I always say to them is you need to be able to talk about your work and others. And some reviews are really, really well written and structured. And in reading that, you're learning how to analyze a play, you're learning how to decipher and break something down, you're learning, you know, what the motifs and themes are. And um, and so it's good, it's good to be able to do that.

[51:06] Matt Scott: Um, I I sat and read, you know, all of Frank Rich's book Hot Seat, which is just a collection of his reviews from the 80s and the 90s, and you know, he was called the Butcher of Broadway. Now I happen to know Frank actually, because Frank was always around during Sonnheim on Sonnheim rehearsals because he and Sondheim were very close, but not, but Frank Frank was tough critic and revered, they had a great relationship, but it wasn't like, hey, we're buddies at first, because Frank was writing about the work, and and at some point they became really close. And so he started coming to rehearsals, and then and then Frank. I remember I walked home with him one day after rehearsal. He just kept talking to me.

He's like, Let me tell you about the original production of Cabaret, and you know, and so he's just a brilliant mind and a brilliant writer. Now he goes on then to be, you know, uh a brilliant political writer, uh, the executive producer of Veeep, you know, and you know, all of the and succession, you know, so he's gone on to give us great, great things, but he started reviewing plays and musicals, and um I think it's it's right, it's writing, it's art, you know, it's a it's an interesting medium. Um, I certainly didn't agree with everything that Ben Brantley ever published. Um, and oftentimes I felt that he was being a really unfair. Um, but I wouldn't know that if I didn't read those things.

For example, Kirsten's show reunion we were at last night for Big Fish was a really beautiful special show, and he trashed it. And he didn't, he didn't get it, he didn't get the themes, and he didn't get um what was trying to happen on stage. And frankly, he was wrong. And why did why do I believe he was wrong? Because my opinion was that, you know, it was succeeding on so many other levels. And what I was frustrated by was if you don't like it, that's fine, but why can't you say to your audience who's reading this, I didn't like it because of A, B, and C. Here's why you might love it. And support the people who are making the art and get people to go and say, are you trying to destroy the art form that is actually paying your your salary? Not any longer, but who's paying your salary? One. And two, isn't that irresponsible?

[53:20] Matt Scott: And I said something like that to Peter Marks once, who I was sitting at a dinner with. Peter Marks is the head critic at the Washington Post and also was like a third-tier writer at the Times at one point. Now I've always gotten lovely notices from Peter, if I'm being frank. He's seen a lot of shows I've done in D.C. And I sat down next to him, he goes, "You're Matthew Scott." We had this great conversation. I said, "Why don't writers write like that?" He said, "I don't know." So for me, it's less about me, and it's more about knowing and being aware of it. Having the context of where you fit in terms of how someone who's not sitting in the rehearsal room might take in the show or whatever.

[53:54] Matt Scott: But think about education today and how you're working with these kids, and then they do a monologue or they do a piece in class, and you say, "Great, tell me what just happened, tell me what's going on. What are you thinking?" And they're like, "I didn't feel as I felt like my voice was a little da da da." I'm like, that is so not what I'm talking about. I don't care what you sound like. That's not what we're talking about. What was happening? You know, they struggle to talk about their work, which is only natural. It's hard. That's why I think reading reviews is helpful because it's a place where people are actually putting in print or online information about a show that you might not actually get to see, or that somewhere down the line you might be interested in doing.

And, you know, reading your own reviews is a different thing. I understand why some people don't read them because it might just be too much for them. And I was never deeply affected if somebody said something. There's a confidence that you're not gonna be shaken either direction. You're not gonna be pulled in to go, "I guess I was amazing. I gotta do more of that," or "That was terrible. I guess I'll take your opinion and make it my own."

[55:03] Matt Scott: One of my first, you know, I did Tick, Tick... Boom! at a college at the Alliance Theater, and I was hired to do it by my friend Kent Gash, who now runs the program at NYU that I teach for. And somebody in Atlanta, because again, you didn't find the stuff online, sent my father-in-law a clipping because they worked with him. They're like, "We saw the show, and he was so great, and here's the local paper." And my father-in-law didn't look at it, and someone sent it off to me, and I read it. And it was something about, "And the actor playing John sweats profusely." And I was like, "Well, they're not wrong. I'm really sweaty." But you're reading that, and you're like, "Oh God, someone saw me." That's what we're getting at with that.

[55:47] Matt Scott: All right. Well, let's take a quick break. And on the back end, we're gonna dive into a natural commercial. A natural commercial. We're gonna have it's gonna be for anti-perspirant or something that's gonna come in here because of AI. And then we'll talk a little bit more about the college process and what you've learned in the teaching of it on the back end. So back in a flash.

[56:05] Charlie Murphy: We are back with Matt Scott, and we're gonna talk a little bit about what you've learned in this process. So I'd love to start with, you know, you mentioned you've been for many years helping students, especially through Broadway Dreams with this process. And really, it seems like maybe we can talk about sort of the parallel processes of helping students who do want to get into college. Certainly what you've learned from that experience, but also sort of, you know, what Broadway Dreams did, I know also was sometimes about professional opportunities for young people. And sort of how do you see those different pipelines, you know, of you're meeting a casting director at 17, if that's what happens, or you know, that kind of thing, versus the students who say, "I do want to go to school and get my education." Sort of how do you see that in terms of the different paths for the industry?

[56:47] Matt Scott: Well, my whole philosophy on that has changed. You know, when I came out of college, I believed that you go to college to train, that there's a lot to learn, that college is also about growing up. It's actually probably more so about, you know, the personal experiences, the four years of being away. So I always was like, "No, that's what this is about. It's deeply important." I've changed my feeling on that since, and I'll explain. But in working with Broadway Dreams, which I was a teacher for for seven or eight years, and then for about five years there, I was the director of education and no longer. I left about a year ago, but I'm still involved, and I do intensives throughout the country and stuff like that. My experience there was that some of those kids were just incredibly ready to go.

[57:45] Matt Scott: And here's the difference between my graduating college and now. The difference is, you know, I got out of school when I was doing Jersey Boys. I was also working on a new musical with an incredible creative team, and Michael Mayer was directing, and it was fantastic. And I was playing one of the lead guys, along with two very well-known actors, one of whom has a Tony now, and we were like the three amigos leading this group. And during that process, Michael opened Spring Awakening on Broadway. I saw the original three times, and I was like, "Michael, oh my God, this is a great one." And it was such a huge success, and those kids' careers exploded. Six months, eight months later, they were doing another round of workshops of this show that I had been doing. And I got a call from my agent saying, "Hey, they're doing another version, they want you back." You're not doing your part. I was like, "What does that mean? Like, they got somebody else. What? Why?"

[58:59] Matt Scott: Well, then what do they want me to do? "Well, they love you. They wrote you a little something. But it's a great team, just go do it." And I was like, "Yeah, I mean, I guess I have no ego about that. I'm like a little kind of bummed and weirded out, but none of the original people returned. None of them." And I go into rehearsal, and I look around at the leads of this show, and I'm like, "Who is Matt Doyle? And who is this Jeremy Jordan kid playing my part? Like, what? Who are these kids? They're children." And of course, they get up and they're incredible. Jeremy starts singing, and he's funny too. And I'm like, "Oh, they're amazing." And they look 18. You look like a 35-year-old man, and you're only 26. And I had a realization in that moment. I was like, "Oh, Michael's show cracked everything open. They want 17-year-olds on stage. They want 20-year-olds who look 16. They want something different."

[59:57] Matt Scott: When I started working at Broadway Dreams, and I saw actual 16-year-olds with the ability to do what I paid $120 to go see somebody else, I was like, "Yeah, why shouldn't that kid go right into the workforce? If the show runs for a year and they miss a year of high school, or they have to do a year of high school at a distance, who cares? Or they delay their college experience, or they don't go to college and they don't accumulate the debt that I did. What does that matter? You know, that's an that they'll work, or they won't, or they'll decide, 'I did it, and now I want to go to med school.'" So maybe this idea that there's one path is wrong. So at Broadway Dreams, when creative people are coming to see the shows, or casting directors are a part of it, and these kids are getting opportunities and auditions, and then I'm getting calls from casting directors who are now friends going, "Hey, I need somebody who can play da-da-da-da-da." And I can give them 10 names, it's really exciting.

[1:00:55] Matt Scott: In my work with those kids, I recognize the ones who I still firmly believe need the college experience and who would benefit from it. And so independently, I say, "I think you need to really explore this. And I think you need to look at this as your path." And imagining, so of course, people who know you personally, they may weigh in on your opinion, but if I'm a parent making the decision, you know, because I think that's really hard. Yeah, you know, I think about like Elizabeth's show and the two young leads of that show were both one was, I guess, a freshman in college and then was stepping out of college, and one hadn't gone yet. And then there were some people who were playing the same parts who had just graduated from school, they're 22 and they look 17.

Great. But there were some people in that show whose parents were Tony Award winners and who had grown up watching their families in the theater. I'm not saying that they got that job because of that. I'm saying they were already indoctrinated into the world. Like, it was just natural.

[1:01:46] Matt Scott: But I guess what's hard is that, you know, it does seem like there's the path where that happens, and then you just launch and you're doing amazing and you're acting, you know, and of course it's not gonna stop you from going to college two years later if you say, "You know, it's time to go." What I don't see a lot of though is like people then saying, "All right, now I'm gonna go back and get my training." Like I feel like if you try for three, four years, it's more like, "All right, now I'm gonna go into business because it didn't work in the theater world."

[1:02:09] Matt Scott: Well, because the diploma hanging on the wall doesn't mean anything. It's not a doctor's office where you walk in and you're like, "Before you act for me, can I just see you can I take a quick glance at your wall?" Nobody needs that proof. And, you know, Carnegie Mellon is still gonna claim Josh Groban. And they're still gonna claim Sutton Foster, even though they don't have their degrees. And Sutton and Josh will probably give them some money every once in a while. And, you know, maybe one day they'll get an honorary doctorate. Nobody cares. With the training, you know, there are kids who do a year or two of training, they get an experience, they move on, and that's enough. Like, that's enough.

[1:02:49] Matt Scott: But if I'm, let's say I'm a parent of a 17-year-old who feels that way, because I don't know, I don't need to go. I want to go to move to New York and try. I guess how would you be weighing that factors as now a parent yourself of going, "I don't know if you're baked enough." Because it does feel like once you jump out of the oven, it's hard to jump back in, you know.

[1:03:04] Matt Scott: You know, this is the frame I give parents who are debating that, you know, a couple of options, or I give them some ways to frame it. First of all, it's case by case, isn't it? If I was being asked my personal advice on a kid that I've known, I'm gonna be honest. I'm gonna say, "No, I really think they need to go to school." Or they got into these amazing schools, they need to go. Or it's gonna, you got scholarships, go. And then there are times when I'm like, "Hey, I know your financial situation," I'll say this to the parent, "You don't have the money to send them there. Let them take a gap year. Let them work in a coffee shop and see what that feels like to earn, you know, minimum wage for a year."

[1:03:50] Matt Scott: Or I'll say, "Okay, how much money do you have set aside for their college experience?" And they'll say, "We, you know, my husband and I, we only have $30,000, $40,000 set aside." I said, "Okay, this is the gamble you probably don't want to take. Tell them you'll support them for a year in New York or two years, as long as that money lasts. And if there's nothing happens, and if they decide after that point that they want to go to school, then it is on them." And because if you're gonna spend that money on college, spend it on classes, spend it on, you know, an apartment in Astoria, spend it on, you know, online camera classes and on-camera classes and things that they might not get in a regular college experience, and maybe they'll book a TV show.

Hey, maybe they'll book a couple of guest spots, maybe they'll book a cruise ship, maybe they won't book anything. But after that year or year and a half, if they say, "Hey, I really think I want to go back," well, you go, "Honey, that money is spent."

[1:04:48] Matt Scott: Because I do believe now, and I've said this early on the podcast, nobody should walk out of school with debt, a crippling amount of debt. I say this affectionately about a business that I have a lot of love and admiration for. This business will never pay you back. It's not designed to pay you back. It's really great to go and do a lead role at a regional theater that maybe pays you $800 a week for 10 weeks. Great. How many of those do you need to book a year? Well, even if you booked them year-round, it's not a great salary. If you book great, so there we go. You book, let's say you're working 50 weeks a year, you booked four different contracts, five different contracts that pay you $800.

Great, that's 40 grand a year. That is nothing. And you're paying out an agent, and you're still paying for some sort of living environment, shared or otherwise, and you're paying, you don't have anything at the end of the day. This business is not designed to pay you back. There are a handful of people at the top who are doing well, and that is what that's of course, that's the American dream, isn't it?

[1:06:00] Matt Scott: I mean, a lot of people have gotten very far on projecting that to the masses as like, "This is your life, this could be your life too." When you're a young actor, you're meant to have confidence, you're meant to believe in yourself. So why wouldn't you think, "I'm gonna be one of those people?" In fact, if you do, if you go into the industry not thinking you're, that's not good. You have to believe that. Then reality sets in a little bit, and you're like, "Oh, I need to make money in another way, or I need to find something else that's gonna fuel me. I need to not make my life only entirely about this." So I'm of two minds now. I don't want to send a kid to school that's gonna come out with a lot of debt. And at the same time, you know, it's really hard to send a 17-year-old off into the workforce too.

[1:06:45] Matt Scott: But there are some of them that are really, really capable. And the business is now calling for those people now in a way that they were not. And like swinging, it can be a unique thing that you have because they need young people. So you go, you can swing five parts. Well, that's unique, amazing. You can walk in and look 17, that's unique. It's a can be an attempt. No, I give a lot of that similar advice off and it I stole it from one of our parents who did it, I think maybe now almost 10 years ago. But who said, hey, listen, I don't think this college is worth this much more than this, but I'm willing to give you the money for this college. And it was like basically said, like, hey, listen, you can either go to this school and then you have a hundred thousand dollars when you graduate, or you go to this school and you don't. That's but you know, you think about that money.

It's real money. And of course that's coming from a place of privilege for that parent to be able to say, I can pay for the more expensive one, but I want you to start thinking about like what does what how much money is that that could be three years of you living in New York, you know, that where you wouldn't have to wait for it. It does come from privilege, but it's also deeply responsible. What a responsible thing for the parent to say. Look, the reality is I'm not gonna pretend that we can't afford to send you to college. And we're gonna give you the we want to support whatever that is, and that's an amazing parent. I'm also going to be very practical with you. A hundred thousand dollars is a down payment on a little studio apartment somewhere.

So, which game do you want to play? Now, here's the thing, you know, I'm like, I talk to my colleagues, I say, how is a 17 year old supposed to know what the rest of their life should look like? How are they supposed to know to make a $200,000 decision at the age of 17? Crazy. And it's insane. And so a lot of kids go to school and they're like, I don't like it, or it's not for me. I have a classmate a couple years older than me who lives in the area who's a doctor now at Mount Sinai. No, at Sloan Kettering. He's a cancer doctor. And he spent four years in school studying musical theater. I was like, when did you? He's like, oh, almost immediately after. It's like, Peter, my God. You know, like, and um, but lives the is now living the life that he's meant to live.

So um, so there you go. You don't have all the answers, and there's no way, and it's really hard. It's really hard to make that decision, and you just have to hope that you're being advised well. When I look at kids and like that example that you're giving me now, and I that's a that's a kid who has the support of their parents. How beautiful is that? Not every kid does. Of course, and not everybody could do that. There are so many kids doing this on their own. Um, and I kind of hinted at this. I want to just drop this in for those kids who are listening. You get your financial aid packet, you want to go to that school. It's not enough money. Call the school. Reach out and say, I want to come here.

I cannot afford it. Let it come from you. Um or the parent, whatever, but like state your case. You know, don't just go, okay, I guess I'll I'll guess I'll go and I'll have I'll have you know $30,000 a year in loans. Just don't do that. If you can get that down to 20. It's huge. Over four years, it's huge, huge. Over four years, like that's amazing. And then they end, you know, it's just so and I didn't know how to do that. And um, but kids know how to advocate for themselves differently now. And they have you. Yeah, I mean, that they have the MTCA and they have to have certainly is out there now. People know that. I mean, we start to talk about it, but people know about it and it's become its own. Like now some schools will pre-tell you we can only negotiate so much. We'll letting you know, like, because we're so used to that.

[1:10:13] Charlie Murphy: All right, let's play our game, and then we'll wrap with a question or two, try to get you out here and not too long. Um, because we are poker players ourselves, or we've played across the felt from each other. I thought I would challenge you to a little two truths and a lie. It's a a true, a true um poker test in itself, or a test of lying and um reading people, I guess is the what I'm going for here. I've also I texted you last night, so you've prepared potentially one for me as well.

[1:10:42] Matt Scott: You texted me this morning.

[1:10:43] Charlie Murphy: Well, it was late last night.

[1:10:44] Matt Scott: It was late last night.

[1:10:45] Charlie Murphy: You texted me, yeah.

[1:10:46] Matt Scott: You texted me at 1 a.m.

[1:10:48] Charlie Murphy: Like I'm awake at 1 a.m. I was barely awake myself. And so you really, I think what you were trying to do was stack the deck.

[1:10:54] Matt Scott: That's exactly right.

[1:10:55] Charlie Murphy: Okay, I took my child to get a flu shot this morning. I barely had a cup of coffee in me when I saw it. So what am I gonna do?

[1:11:01] Matt Scott: So I know what you're doing. I'm on the bottom.

[1:11:02] Charlie Murphy: All right, are you ready? You ready to play? So I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna let you go first. You're gonna get to guess, and then and then you'll do me.

[1:11:07] Matt Scott: So I'm gonna guess. I'm gonna give you my my two truths and a lie. Here we go.

[1:11:10] Charlie Murphy: Okay, so this is we're gonna start off nice and simple. This is the sibling round.

[1:11:16] Matt Scott: Okay, so the all truths about my siblings. Three truths stated ready. My oldest brother is a lawyer in San Francisco. My younger brother is a computer programmer in Santa Barbara, my second oldest brother is an operations manager in San Diego.

[1:11:33] Charlie Murphy: Three truths about myself. And I need to point out the lie.

[1:11:40] Matt Scott: Okay, so let's go back. Lawyer San Francisco, computer programmer, Santa Barbara, Operations manager, San Diego.

[1:11:55] Charlie Murphy: I think the lie is um Santa Barbara.

[1:11:58] Matt Scott: Santa Barbara is true. The lie is San Diego.

[1:12:00] Charlie Murphy: Okay, but so talk me through me through. What why do you make that decision? How are you trying to guess? What are you thinking about the way in which that did the way you suspiciously of all my thoughts?

[1:12:09] Matt Scott: It wasn't about the way you played it. It wasn't about the way you laid it out. I thought in our conversations, and this just goes to show how little I listened to you. I thought in our conversations you had mentioned San Diego to me at one moment.

[1:12:20] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, we go to San Diego. That's why.

[1:12:23] Matt Scott: Okay, so is that why? And Elizabeth doesn't have family in San Diego, right?

[1:12:27] Charlie Murphy: But she comes to San Diego.

[1:12:28] Matt Scott: Okay, so that's okay.

[1:12:30] Charlie Murphy: So San Diego is in my brain. Santa Barbara, you said San Francisco, and then you said Santa Barbara, and I was like, no.

[1:12:36] Matt Scott: No, no, no.

[1:12:46] Charlie Murphy: All right. Keep it going.

[1:12:48] Matt Scott: Let's do the heritage round.

[1:12:49] Charlie Murphy: Yeah?

[1:12:50] Matt Scott: Okay.

[1:12:51] Charlie Murphy: Okay.

[1:12:51] Matt Scott: Solvi's middle name is Amelia, after my grandfather, Emil, a renowned Jewish number theorist and friend of Albert Einstein. My paternal grandfather was a minor league baseball player and professional trumpeter who once trumpeted with Babe Ruth. My paternal great-grandfather and namesake was Charlie Murphy, also known as Silent Charlie, and was a New York politician of some renown and the longest serving member of New York's Tammany Hall.

[1:13:23] Charlie Murphy: Three facts. These are excellent, by the way.

[1:13:25] Matt Scott: Thank you.

[1:13:27] Charlie Murphy: These are excellent, by the way. I believe the Solvi and one is true.

[1:13:33] Matt Scott: The middle name is true.

[1:13:35] Charlie Murphy: Oh, Marron.

[1:13:36] Matt Scott: This thing, you really, this is good. I mean, the detail with which you Tammany Hall.

[1:13:41] Charlie Murphy: Come on.

[1:13:42] Matt Scott: Um Silent Charlie. That's so excellent.

[1:13:46] Charlie Murphy: The baseball player.

[1:13:48] Matt Scott: I know you play softball.

[1:13:50] Charlie Murphy: Um, I know you're obsessed. I know that it's a real point of contention between you and share personal details.

[1:13:58] Matt Scott: Okay.

[1:13:59] Charlie Murphy: No, I'm just trying to see now. Now what I'm doing actually is I'm reading your face.

[1:14:04] Matt Scott: Okay.

[1:14:04] Charlie Murphy: He's blushing. He is flush.

[1:14:07] Matt Scott: Cheeks are red.

[1:14:09] Charlie Murphy: Eyebrows are raised.

[1:14:12] Matt Scott: I think the middle one about the baseball player is funny.

[1:14:15] Charlie Murphy: No, that one is true.

[1:14:16] Matt Scott: Silent Charlie. There is such a person called Silent Charlie, but that's not my name's sake.

[1:14:21] Charlie Murphy: You're 0 for two.

[1:14:23] Matt Scott: You think now, so just literally for random sake. Now a monkey has to get this next one right. Otherwise, you're doing worse than random.

[1:14:30] Charlie Murphy: Here we go.

[1:14:30] Matt Scott: These are current day fun facts, um, sort of uh um things about me.

[1:14:35] Charlie Murphy: Okay, ready?

[1:14:36] Matt Scott: Okay.

[1:14:36] Charlie Murphy: I have another podcast I do weekly with my best friend from Carnegie Mellon on the television show Survivor.

[1:14:44] Matt Scott: Two.

[1:14:45] Charlie Murphy: I have a standing weekly phone call with my best friend from before college, who was the officiant at my wedding, the last of which was spent preparing for our upcoming fantasy basketball draft, as we are both huge NBA fans.

[1:14:57] Matt Scott: That's number two.

[1:14:58] Charlie Murphy: Number three.

[1:14:59] Matt Scott: I started a theater company with two of my best friends from post school days, where we produced classical and contemporary plays with classical roots.

[1:15:10] Charlie Murphy: This is just, I don't know what to do about this.

[1:15:13] Matt Scott: Um, the survivor one, I want to say is the lie, but I can see it being true, so give me a sec.

[1:15:20] Charlie Murphy: Um that's my that's my one-year old screaming by there.

[1:15:24] Matt Scott: Um I'm gonna go ahead and say the survivor one is false.

[1:15:29] Charlie Murphy: Survivor one is 100% true.

[1:15:31] Matt Scott: You're oh for three, Matt.

[1:15:32] Charlie Murphy: All right, now for the capper on top, can you stump me?

[1:15:34] Matt Scott: Now that's the real question. What do you got for me?

[1:15:36] Charlie Murphy: Okay.

[1:15:37] Matt Scott: Right.

[1:15:37] Charlie Murphy: I put a lot of thought into this.

[1:15:39] Matt Scott: I can really tell.

[1:15:39] Charlie Murphy: Okay. Uh this is wait, two truths and a lie, right?

[1:15:45] Matt Scott: That's the oh I gotta redo the whole thing.

[1:15:47] Charlie Murphy: Hold on, hold on. If it's two lies and the truths, figure it out.

[1:15:53] Matt Scott: Listen, I wrote two lies and a truth.

[1:15:57] Charlie Murphy: I'm looking totally fine.

[1:15:59] Matt Scott: Two lies and a truth.

[1:16:01] Charlie Murphy: That's a head and the closet.

[1:16:01] Matt Scott: This is how I'm gonna get you.

[1:16:03] Charlie Murphy: I can snip out truth.

[1:16:05] Matt Scott: Two lies, one truth.

[1:16:06] Charlie Murphy: Two lies and a truth.

[1:16:09] Matt Scott: The Liam Neeson edition.

[1:16:11] Charlie Murphy: I can't wait.

[1:16:12] Matt Scott: Okay, ready.

[1:16:17] Charlie Murphy: I have never actually paid to see a Liam Neeson film in a movie theater because he is a distant relative of mine.

[1:16:25] Matt Scott: And we share family who hail from Northern Ireland, which is where he's from, and every year at the holidays, he or his assistant most likely sends giant care packages of DVDs of his films.

[1:16:38] Matt Scott: So I've never had to see a film in a movie.

[1:16:40] Matt Scott: Did you say Ireland one more time?

[1:16:41] Charlie Murphy: Because I just need to test how you're talking about.

[1:16:41] Matt Scott: Ireland.

[1:16:45] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, that's card.

[1:16:45] Matt Scott: Erline.

[1:16:46] Charlie Murphy: Number one, that's all one fact, right?

[1:16:48] Matt Scott: That's one.

[1:16:49] Charlie Murphy: Never paid.

[1:16:49] Matt Scott: Uh number two, I am forced by my wife each year to watch at least one Liam Neeson movie specifically at the holidays.

[1:17:02] Charlie Murphy: Because she's obsessed, Kirsten.

[1:17:05] Matt Scott: I am forced by my wife to watch at least one Liam Neeson movie per year, specifically at the holidays.

[1:17:19] Charlie Murphy: This is number three.

[1:17:21] Matt Scott: Liam Neeson once broke focus on a movie set where I clearly observed him taking a moment to get into character because he saw me struggling to open a door while juggling several pieces of dry cleaning. When I made a joke about his newfound career as a professional doorman, he neither laughed nor smiled.

[1:17:43] Charlie Murphy: So that third story is incredibly believable.

[1:17:45] Matt Scott: So I want that to be the truth.

[1:17:48] Charlie Murphy: Though I also feel like I would not be shocked if Kirsten was a love actually forcing you to watch it every Christmas kind of person.

[1:17:56] Matt Scott: That could be a little red herring, like, oh, so many people do that. Maybe Kirsten's not that person.

[1:18:01] Charlie Murphy: Um I want to remind you that this is two lies.

[1:18:04] Matt Scott: Two lies one truth.

[1:18:05] Charlie Murphy: I understand.

[1:18:05] Matt Scott: Yes, no, I do remember.

[1:18:07] Charlie Murphy: Um I'm gonna say uh the third one is true, and the second one is you force Kirsten to watch Love Actually every year.

[1:18:23] Matt Scott: Yeah, that's that right?

[1:18:25] Charlie Murphy: Let's go.

[1:18:25] Matt Scott: Is that actually true?

[1:18:25] Charlie Murphy: Listen.

[1:18:28] Matt Scott: I am not forced to watch it.

[1:18:28] Matt Scott: I'm not forced to watch it; I watch it willingly, gleefully. It's the greatest bad movie. I love it too. I maybe not every year, but every other year I'll get it on for sure.

[1:18:38] Charlie Murphy: No, it's an every year one. It's an every year one. So I'm...

[1:18:42] Charlie Murphy: And yet, are you gonna continue playing poker with me after this?

[1:18:45] Matt Scott: After this, not after this.

[1:18:45] Charlie Murphy: Absolutely.

[1:18:47] Matt Scott: Not after this. My God.

[1:18:48] Charlie Murphy: That worked out well.

[1:18:49] Matt Scott: It's a and it is a.

[1:18:51] Charlie Murphy: And the first one is obviously a double lie.

[1:18:53] Matt Scott: We're not related, and I have paid.

[1:18:55] Charlie Murphy: Oh, of course.

[1:18:56] Matt Scott: I I saw Batman Begins twice in the theater.

[1:18:58] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, and you see Love.

[1:18:59] Matt Scott: But the third one is the truth.

[1:19:00] Charlie Murphy: I love it.

[1:19:01] Matt Scott: I never saw Love Actually in the theater.

[1:19:02] Charlie Murphy: No, I think that was an after the theater one.

[1:19:04] Matt Scott: And the third one is true.

[1:19:05] Charlie Murphy: He was filming a movie in the lobby of our second apartment.

[1:19:10] Matt Scott: And um it was so bizarre.

[1:19:13] Charlie Murphy: They well, that he was filming in the lobby and across the street on 45th, and they let him kind of just use the lobby to pace.

[1:19:21] Matt Scott: I don't know if he was filming Taken 16 or whatever, but he was pacing.

[1:19:26] Charlie Murphy: And he was deep in, and I came in with my keys and like dry cleaning and groceries, and I was like, drop the keys and was juggling them.

[1:19:35] Matt Scott: And he finally opened the door and he said, here, and let me in.

[1:19:39] Charlie Murphy: And um, I made a very bad joke.

[1:19:39] Matt Scott: Yeah.

[1:19:41] Charlie Murphy: And you know what?

[1:19:44] Matt Scott: He did not find it.

[1:19:46] Charlie Murphy: He did not find it.

[1:19:46] Matt Scott: Yeah.

[1:19:47] Charlie Murphy: Similarly to the time that I I turned a corner and smacked right into Daniel Day Lewis, who was out jogging.

[1:19:53] Matt Scott: And uh said, Oh my god, I'm so sorry.

[1:19:55] Charlie Murphy: You know, as anybody told you you look like Daniel Day Lewis, and he went, huh?

[1:20:00] Charlie Murphy: You're like, no, no, it's cool. I'm an actor too. No, no, I'm like, I'm we're gonna do it. I'm an actor too. Come on. That was such an actor thing to say. Man, I'm so embarrassed. No, wait, this is the perfect segue to the last thing I want to talk to you about, which is or one of two last things, depending on how much we're gonna run through over our time, is I want to talk about charm because I'm gonna pay you this compliment, Matt Scott. It's the only thing time will be nice here on the podcast. That you you are remarkably charming, Matt. Something that you were I think both in in life, but maybe particularly anything notably for this on stage. You really you really have a charisma and a charm on stage. Where do you feel like that comes from? How did you cultivate that? Is it something you do consciously? I guess how how how could an actor who goes, I want to be charming in the way that Matt's got is charming? How could somebody try to evaluate that?

[1:20:46] Matt Scott: Oh God. Thank you. You are a good liar. You're really good at it. That's very sweet. I you know look, you you were you only saw you saw me just a couple of weeks ago do do my thing that that I wrote that is me that is very honest that is very vulnerable. It's very truthful. And it's a largely in part about my father. It's largely in a part about becoming a father, but he was um very funny uh d very charismatic. I as a kid, you know, I he passed when I was 13 so but I have so many memories, you know, just tooling around town with him and walking into the local florist or you know stopping at a we'd be driving along and he'd stop um at a park because he saw somebody you know that he knew and I would listen to him converse with people and people always we always left they were in tears crying.

Like he was always just and I saw people light up when he would walk into a room or he'd come up to them and he always had a nickname for everyone whether they wanted it or not. And I've actually inherited that um there are people I've worked with like older actors who I nickname and you don't nickname older actor and I've had them say to me I have never let anybody in my life call me that you can call me you know because and I even my students, I come about, you know, nicknames with them kind of honestly, and I see them kind of be like feel like really special about it. Um I think he was just really good at that. I think he was just really good at that. And um, he was good at uh I struggle with this, but he was he was good at listening to people and hearing what they were saying and what they needed and what they wanted.

And that's isn't that being an actor? I mean, being on stage with somebody who is who is trying to tell you what they need. Um, and you have to listen. And so and it's that's the simplest as it as it gets um right there. I don't think you can force that, but my god, there are so many great actors that you watch on on camera and on stage, and you're like, wow, that's just a charming SOB. I mean, think of Brad Pitt and every, you know, oceans movie or Clooney, or you know, like they're just so smooth. And of course they're exceedingly handsome. They've got that going. We all have that. Exactly, yeah. Scott and Clooney, but um, but these guys are just like they they they come across as guys. You know, like that you if you ran into them, you could talk to them.

And that may or may not be true because I don't know either of them, but I've always wanted to be that person. And what's ironic about that, Charlie, is I have deep, deep social anxiety and I talk about this a lot. And I like my kids talk about it, and um, not my my two-year-old, um, my students talk about it. It comes up a lot. I have deep deep social anxiety. Uh yeah, he's like, stop taking me to the park. I don't and um but uh he's talking about my social. He's just like, I'm worried about data. No, but I I think that's exactly right, because it it like it it somehow relates to confidence uh in the way that confidence manifests in actors, I feel like there's something like I I find so many of our students um so likable and endearing, but often not the same kind of charming because there isn't a a a wall of uh of confidence.

But I I wanted to say, and I could be wrong, but I can't imagine that our generation was any more actually confident or any less insecure than they are. But something, some influence is churning, you know. I was talking about sort of the loud humility that I see instead of quiet confident. I watch the sort of performative humility instead of like being like just own wherever you are. You don't have to be cocky, but you can own your thing. You know, yeah.

[1:24:31] Matt Scott: I wonder if it's a good thing. I think that's the I think that is the truth. And maybe maybe it's true we're not any less or more insecure than they were. I think they have more things at their disposal to kind of add and cultivate that insecurity, and they're they're the images that they're inundated with and the videos and all that, like we didn't, we didn't go through that. Um, so I do think like there's a lot more of it. Um however, the thing I'm always telling my kids is I'm like, you're weird. Yeah, I'm weird too. Like, let's find out how weird we are. Because that's what's gonna get you the gig, that's what's gonna get you into the school. That and you know, shown your joy, right? You come and you're like, I love these pieces that I picked, and I am so happy to share them with you.

And that piece could be, you know, you're a mass murderer, or it could be, you know, you're you're dealing with a deep, you know, psychological problem. You can still love that piece. Um, and and then that leads to the question of why'd you pick that? Oh my god, well, it's so interesting. I've always found it to be so fascinating, these types of characters, you know. And I grew up in a in a family where my father was a forensic, you know, and like, and then all of a sudden I'm talking to a kid, and I'm like, I love this kid. Why can't I meet that kid? I want that kid, and I want that kid in my program. And so um, but if a kid does a piece that they're like told to do or they feel they should be doing, they're never as confident and they're never as natural.

When you find you're weird, when you find your own humor, when you cultivate it, and there's a period of time when you're a really young kid where you're just weird and you don't realize how weird you are, and it's awesome. And then somebody says, Hey, you're weird, and then you start to shut down, and then you go to high school and you start to shut down more, and then you go to college and somebody goes, You're weird and I love it, and then you start to bring it back out. And then you get to a point where you're our age and a little bit older, where you're like, I don't care what anybody thinks about me, I'm weird. So there's that unfortunate period of time, right when these kids are looking to go to school, when they're looking to start their lives, that they are concealing their truth.

The most unique thumbs, would you know, which it could be their weird corporiness or whatever it is, yeah. Yeah, so when you see that in a kid, when I see that in a kid, when Christopher Hankey sees that in a kid, when Caitlin Hopkins sees that in the kid, we're like, Yes, please, more and more and more. And um, and those kids do well, right?

[1:26:47] Charlie Murphy: So true. Um, but the charm, I mean, thanks. That's nice. I think it's all I think it's about being truthful at the end of the day, and you know that to be the case too. I mean, you can do anything on stage when you're when you're being truthful and honest, you know, you're funnier, um, you're it's more sincere. People tend to lean in a little bit harder when you're not, you know, yeah, working towards trying to pull somebody into you, and that's the hardest lesson for for young actors, honestly. It's hard for me, it's hard for you. And it's how do I be honest about this? Like, that's really hard. Well, you just it's constantly changes. I mean to be authentically honest to yourself in where you are as now I can no longer call myself a young adult as an adult person, you know, is different than the the authentic honesty of myself at 25.

The the truth that I've trained and worked toward, you know. How how do I find that part of myself? It's a different person you bring on stage, you know, uh older and and now as a father and all those things. Um, let's get to wrapping up just because I don't want to hold you forever. Um, let's end with some advice. So I'd love to talk to, you know, um, I know we've given a number of advice, uh different um aspects here. What do you think about these, you know, a 17-year-old out out there looking at this process? You think about the parent of one of those. What would be the biggest advice that you'd say, you know, for a career in the arts? It could be about college or beyond, but for a career in the arts, what's the big advice you would give them um at this point?

[1:28:05] Matt Scott: Yeah. It's so funny because I spend so much time in class saying to my kids, I'm only one voice. You know, I might not be the voice you want stuck in your head for the next 20 years. And I might in this classroom say something that lodges into your brain for better or for worse, and you can't shake it. Maybe one day you're walking down the street and you go, Oh my god, that makes so much sense. Or maybe you'll have heard me say something that I didn't mean to say in a way, and you're like, he really said this thing about me when I didn't mean that. And it's so tough because kids are so impressionable, and we really all hear what we want to hear. So my biggest advice is don't listen to the advice.

Do listen just podcasts, but don't listen to the podcast. Do listen to this podcast, just don't listen to me. But the other part of that is um, I believe that a well-rounded career in the arts, and this up this applies to the college process. Nobody wants an automaton. Nobody wants a kid who only looks good on paper. Um, it's you know, it's interesting to me that oh, you did all of these things and you're the president of the debate club and all that, and your SATs are through the roof. That's great. Cool. Are you a nice person? Can you talk? Do you know how to interview? Are you funny? Are you hearing what I'm saying and responding in the moment, or are these all pre pre-planned responses? Tell me about your family.

Tell me what you like to do when you're not doing this. What's your friend group like? And a kid who feels well-rounded and well-first is so much more impressive to me. You know, I used to hold host college panels through Broadway Dreams, and I would bring in a bunch of schools, and Catherine Moore, our teacher, was one of the first people to say, hey, if you're on a college tour, and by college tour, you mean like, you know, you're doing your kids auditioning for 30 schools. Um, not necessarily if you're in the location of the school, but if you're in the midst of that and your kid wakes up on Saturday and says, I can't do this today. She said, Listen to them. They're an adult, they're making that decision.

And that maybe taking off that Saturday afternoon and not auditioning for the Boston Conservatory or Penn State is gonna give them the fuel and the energy they need for the next six weeks of this, or it's gonna allow them to go watch a movie with their friends and have a and kind of have a little bit more perspective and take a breath. Um, but because the parents and the families get as invested, if not more so, every opportunity is just that. Well, if you don't go, that could be the school that accepts you, that could be the school that gives you a full ride. And you know, a part of me is like, yeah, or not. Or not, it's uh such a hard. And maybe the kid just maybe the kid just needs to go bowling that night.

And and that's tough. That's a really tough thing to do. But um, so for the parents, I feel like listen to the kids. And for the kids, you know, don't just find other things too and and and round it out. My my best students are the ones who like when I start to talk to them and I learn about their home life, and they're like, Yeah, I've lived on a farm all my life, you know, I've been driving a tractor since I'm 12 years old, and I'm up every morning at if at 4 a.m. and now I have to take walk my sister five miles to school, and she's my best friend in the world. And I'm like, I love this kid. I love this kid. You know what I mean?

[1:31:22] Charlie Murphy: Yep.

[1:31:22] Matt Scott: Um, that perspective that that it's just beautiful. It's really exciting. You know, in some ways, they're always navigating, though. You're talking about navigating, do you do college or not? You know, and for the Broadway Dreams kids, they're always navigating the quantity versus quality of it all too. I mean, you know, we we do encourage enough quantity that you give yourself enough chances, but it's not just about the planning you do in advance to get in the room, it is about the quality of like, can I actually show up in the room and be present and have that experience? Because it's not gonna do you any good, just like walk into 30 rooms if you didn't show up into any of them.

[1:31:53] Charlie Murphy: No, no, no.

[1:31:53] Matt Scott: And and I again, how are you supposed to know that at 17? You know what I mean? So there's trial and error, and they're you're gonna walk into some rooms and where you're just gonna be like, I don't care, and you're gonna do great. And then you're gonna walk into the room that you care so deeply about, and you're gonna just bomb. And then that one affects the next five, and it's just it's it's just so unfair. It's such a tough, tough thing. And I think we're all seeking it's impossible at 17, it's impossible in your 40s, I think, too. We're all seeking the acceptance that you were talking about of like, well, I just am gonna be 60 when my kids graduate. That's just how it's gonna be because that's what my edition tour was like.

It sucks that I had the bad audition before my good audition, but that's part of you you can't control everything, and you're gonna get what you need to do. You cannot control everything, and and it's a good lesson to start to learn at that point, and and you know, hopefully, parents are having those conversations with their kids. And um I think one one of the things that I kind of learned, you know, when I started auditioning as a young actor was like you can mourn a bad audition, you can mourn it, but at some point you got to put like a time limit on that and you gotta let it go. All right, I give myself a day, I give myself two days, and then it's gonna hurt again when you see the announcement on Playbill, and it's gonna hurt again when that person gets the Tony nomination.

You didn't get it, you were down to the last two, three people. But that's the rest of your life if you see this out. Um you know, and the people who do well in this business are the ones who stick around.

[1:33:19] Matt Scott: Like that is I've heard that so many times, and I believe it to be true. You stick around. I mean, let's just let's just point again to Elizabeth, if it's okay. I've known Elizabeth a long time, and we did a show out of town together and actually shared housing together and had so many conversations. She is so deeply special and unique and such a hard worker and such an amazing individual on and off stage.

[1:33:44] Charlie Murphy: Agreed.

[1:33:45] Matt Scott: And her moment, which came about a few years ago, and it's not like she had not been doing great up until that, she'd done so many wonderful things, but her moment was a real moment, and it was earned, and everyone in the community rejoiced around it because we were like that's no, no, no, no, no, sir. No, I'm saying just that.

[1:34:09] Charlie Murphy: I don't know if it was causal.

[1:34:13] Matt Scott: Yeah, well, it's true. No, I absolutely believe the two go hand in hand. No, but you're absolutely and her success. You know, as we say, luck is talent meets opportunity or preparation meets opportunity, I think it is. Um it was 20 years of opportunities waiting for them, but then being prepared and seizing the opportunities you had, and you know, yeah. And being a s and being an exceptional individual. That's right. Who is a gift in every room, and when who walks in the room, people go, God, don't you feel good about having this person with us? You know, whether it's just the audition or whether it's the process. And so that adds up to something. That adds up. Um but hard hard to see the addition when you're on the outside going, I guess I gave them a warm feeling, but didn't book that one.

Or cool, they but you know, when we'd be at it, we'd be out of town doing this show together, and we'd laugh, you know, so much because it was, you know, we were like, why are we doing this show? And we were laughing about it constantly. And then Elizabeth be like, right, I'm going to my room for an hour to craft. Or she'd come out with a painting or something that she had knitted, and I'm like, oh that's called self-care, I think. I've heard of that. Um I don't do that very well, but she seems to be taking the time. Take a and I was going through the height of my anxiety at that point, by the way. I could use some right now.

[1:35:33] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[1:35:33] Matt Scott: But yeah, you know, that's a great example, you know, um of that. And I have a handful of people in my life who are friends, um, or that I just admire that when I'm talking to my students, I point to those careers and I point to those people and say, This is what you see, great, that's awesome. This is what's behind that. All that work, all that kindness, all that determination, also all that disappointment, all that frustration, you know, all that getting really, really close and losing. You need to know about that. Because in college, nobody's there really telling you that.

[1:36:07] Charlie Murphy: They're not.

[1:36:08] Matt Scott: They're not preparing you in that way. They have a different job. Their job is to prepare you in a different way. And then you get out into the real world, and you're like, oh, wait, there's all these other things I have to think about too.

[1:36:19] Charlie Murphy: Yep.

[1:36:19] Matt Scott: So um, I think I answered that question six times. But I kept you going.

[1:36:23] Charlie Murphy: Well, and we'll start six more conversations if I don't let you go. So let's end it there. Um, we know where we're the best place for people to follow you. Like Instagram, what's the dream?

[1:36:29] Matt Scott: Um Yeah, you can follow me on Instagram. I have a horrible handle. It's horrible because there are so many Matthew Scots in the world, and some of them have done some really terrible things. Like, don't Google Matthew Scott.

[1:36:43] Charlie Murphy: Okay, great.

[1:36:43] Matt Scott: No, you can Google my name, but type something in after it that is specific. Otherwise, you're gonna just get some horrible things pop up. So I'm on Instagram at readyforit. M dot pen and paper. Underscore underscore s dot c dot o dot t dot t. It's terrible. But you can find me. I used to be fatty matty fresh. And then at one point I was like, you know, here's something. You're sort of a professional. You can't. You should you can't do that. Um I'm no longer on Twitter or X or whatever it's called. I had to leave that. That's the place to find me.

[1:37:21] Charlie Murphy: And um And you follow me at Silent Charlie. Um, so that's perfect. Both sides there. Um I love it, Matt. Thanks for the time today, man. This was such a pleasure.

[1:37:29] Matt Scott: Thanks, pal. It was so fun.

[1:37:38] Charlie Murphy: Oh, yes, yes, yes. What didn't that episode have? We had crying babies, check me thrashing a guest in a game, check. Some great input on college and early professional process. I'm gonna say check, check, check. Um, speaking of, could we talk about games for a second? This is officially me checking in on the games for feedback. Are people still liking them? Am I still making them too hard? I feel like that was a bit unlucky that Matt went over three on that. I don't think that was particularly hard, but on the heels of Jenna not getting any of the mascots and not getting her cookie. I just want to make sure I'm not trying to make these games, you know, impossible or anything. I'm trying to make them challenging, but winnable and hopefully fun for you, the listeners.

A bit of a an amouse bouche in the midst of some amusing banter. But let us know. You know, the email is mailbag at mapping the college edition.com. That's mailbag at mapping the college edition.com. Let us know what you think. And while you're at it, please give us any other feedback you want as well. We love hearing from our listeners.

[1:38:34] Matt Scott: We do make the show for you.

[1:38:36] Charlie Murphy: And if you're feeling overwhelmed in gratitude for that fact and you're tempted to leave us a rating and review, I say, more power to you. That's a great idea. Okay, on to the takeaway, which is really just an underline of something we talked about in the interview. And I think we've hinted at in the show before, which is just talking about the value of a name in a degree. So the value of a name of a school. What's in a name? Um, Matt's uncle talked about it in the argument of like you can't afford not to send him, um, which I thought was such a fun story. It's such a sort of like, I'm just picturing Matt's kind of jersey uncles. I got to meet Matt's brothers um at his concert. And yeah.

[1:39:09] Matt Scott: Um, but then Matt himself gave you that understandable advice of you shouldn't go deep into debt for a BFA, which you know seems to be more of a kind of do as I say, not as I do situation or not as I did uh in Matt's case, right? And so it's a little difficult to determine. So what is the value of that? Is it something that's completely unaffordable to not do? You can't afford not to do it, or is it something that you go, this is more money than I potentially need to spend? I just want to say, I think the potentially obvious thing that we perhaps don't say enough in exploring all of these different collegiate paths, which is of course, there is a significant value to going to one of those extremely reputable competitive audition-based programs.

When you see some of those percentages under one percent admission, there is a reason so many people want to go there, and there's a reason you're going through this crazy process in that there is a real value in going to these schools in the kinds of doors that it can open for you. Whether that's a Carnegie Mellon, Juilliard, Michigan, name your favorite of these schools. There is a value to that name that you get to wear around on your sweatshirt. Not unlike the idea of some of those elite Ivy League schools in the business world, or in this episode, I use the example of Duke or Kentucky, if you want to play NBA basketball. In any hyper competitive field, there is an advantage in having gone to a school that people have determined is elite, that does exist.

And I think my generation of educators, I think we can be a bit loath to say that out loud because we've had that assumption so ingrained in us when we were coming up that it feels much more important to say the other truths, which are still true, like going to an elite school is no guarantee of success. That is absolutely true. Or there are so many incredible, unique paths to success in this business. That is absolutely true and a big part of what this podcast is about, right? But occasionally I will now see a family kind of confused as to why should I even go through all this hullabaloo of going for those big name schools that are so hard to get into if I have this option that's affordable and I like it and it's right by me and it feels like a good fit for me.

Right. And of course, that is each family's decision to make. I would never discourage a family from making the choice of what is right for them, especially if I hear that word fit. But I think we wouldn't be doing our jobs as coaches if we didn't speak to the fact that there is a value that exists at some of those big brand name schools that is statistically significant in setting up your chance of success compared to a brand new program or program with a less established reputation. Now, exactly what that boost is, I can't actually tell you. You know, I have looked at trying to calculate it at different points, and while I'm certainly not a statistician, I'm pretty good at basic math, but the limiting factor is it's really hard to quantify success in this industry.

You know, what would you use as a metric for success is really hard to define. I mean, of course, you could use money earned if we had access to like lifetime earnings for all of our students, though let's be honest, we don't. Um, but even I would quibble with that in that it's a pretty hard as a metric given the outsize influence of something like a hit television show or even a long-running Broadway show over a really happy life working at Oregon Shakespeare Festival, which for many people might be the pinnacle of what they're looking for. Also, more importantly, I don't have access to that information, right? And I think using a metric like making it to Broadway is pretty crude and binary in a way that I think actually is unhelpful, right?

I understand you're not gonna have a perfect metric, but I think that is actually unhelpful in that that's not even the goal of some musical theater actors and certainly non-musical theater actors, Broadway's normally not the goal. It's not the pinnacle uh in that way. But what I will say is despite not being able to give you the exact statistical, you get a 50% boost or a 75% boost or whatever it is, I will say there is an observable difference, an obvious and observable difference in the opportunities that will be presented to you early in your career, whether that's in who's immediately getting representation and what kind of representation you have access to, um, who you're seeing on the audition circuit, and you know, who is working and where they're working.

All of those fields, everything I just mentioned, is populated across the spectrum of scholastic achievement, meaning you'll see the Juilliards and the Carnival, and you'll see brand new programs in any of those places in auditions with great representation, all those things. But those bigger name schools are definitely overrepresented in all of those fields. And I'll say, and now we're venturing really into the territory of personal opinion. I always try to be careful when when I'm giving what I feel is my expert, uh this is true opinion versus what is my personal opinion. But I'll say personally, I think reputation is the biggest avenue of difference between the well-established BFAs and the up and coming BFAs.

You know, one thing I've always felt, and I hope you hear it on this podcast, is that so many of these programs have absolutely incredible educators populating them. Right? Many of those educators themselves went to elite, well-known programs back in their day. The biggest difference, as I often see it, won't be in the quality of teachers, but in the reputation as it affects you walking out of school into the doors that you can open, and also the reputation as it relates to the training itself, in that that reputation can often affect the quality of your classmates. So the differences won't necessarily be in the quality of your teachers, but in the quality of your classmates. As a high percentage of strong young actors choose programs with strong reputations, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It's not that the people at Kentucky basketball are so much better at teaching basketball than at other programs, it's that they're getting the best recruits year after year, and that becomes the reason Kentucky is such a good basketball team. I don't know why I'm shilling for Kentucky specifically, right? But that quality difference in that self-fulfilling prophecy can affect the quality of classwork you're doing. If you have stronger artists pushing you that you're learning from, it will affect the way the classes feel. I always say you learn more from your fellow classmates than you do from your professors. You know, and that's said a bit glibly, is of course it takes a great professor to set up a class and to get the best out of those students and all those things.

But I am a firm believer that high quality work begets high quality work, and I can name a handful of my classmates I have stolen so much from. I guess to say nicely, I've learned so much from. But watching them work and watching them learn really helped me understand concepts that I also was working on, but watching them achieve at a high level made me go, now I know how to collect that in for myself, just as much and sometimes more so than the work I was actively doing on my feet. But that to me is by far the biggest difference. Once you've seen a program and evaluated what it offers to you and what feels like an environment you'll learn best in, I would always start there. Again, we always start with fit being the most important thing.

Where are you gonna fit best? But once you've made those decisions, if you're trying to make the difficult financial decision that Matt was making, with these two great options between Rutgers and Carnegie Mellon in that case, that is what I'd be weighing. What is the difference to me in the perceived value of the reputational difference? And to him and the family, it obviously felt like it was worth swinging the extra money at that time, right? And of course, now he would know I should have negotiated sooner, and maybe it wouldn't be such a difference in money. Well, that's it. Another episode, another free episode. You didn't have to negotiate for this one. Free, produced for you by the non-negotiable Meghan Cordier.

Follow us at Mapping the College Audition on Insta, check out MTCA on TikTok, and don't forget to sign up for that junior workshop if you haven't yet. Link is in the show notes. Two my young artists out there mapping their journeys. Is it just me or does Pitt Scott Clooney sound like a fancy New York City law firm? And of course, some very handsome men. We'll see you next week.