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[0:00] Charlie Murphy: Hello, hello, and welcome to Mapping The College Audition. I'm your host, Charlie Murphy, Director of MTCA. That's Musical Theatre, College Auditions. Check us out at mtca.com. And today we've got Dr. David Herendeen from Oklahoma City University on the pod.

[0:20] For newer listeners, this is another one of our College Deep Dive episodes where we explore the landscape of the college theatre world and try to demystify this daunting audition process, one school at a time. And for those rare people who are listening to this episode for a second time, which I'm sure is basically zero people, but if it happens to be you, you'll notice this is a different intro. I'm rerecording this because the sound quality was a bit off in that first intro that was uploaded. So I'm trying to give you all the best sonic experience possible, as always. But of course, for the vast majority of you listening now, I can't imagine you would ever know that there was a different intro before this, but there you go.

[1:06] I will say to our seniors out there, the same message I gave you last week, please keep on keeping on. We've had some absolutely amazing results over the past few weeks, as a lot of those most competitive schools are really coming in now with the results. But there's still many more to hear from, of course. And for every person out there who has more yeses than they know how to negotiate with, which there's a lot of those people, there are also families, both MTCA and non, who are living in that more disappointed place. And I actually really don't want to judge that based on objective results because sometimes I'll talk to families with objectively good results who are still pretty disappointed over a specific dream school they were hoping for. And then some students with many fewer yeses who are thrilled at the great fit that they find.

[1:48] I would just say for those out there who are not yet in that thrilled place, to please remember it is still March as I say this, and there's a lot of time left for more results to come in and for things to change. Some big schools have not released anything yet, as you know, and many still have those wait lists and in those pool of consideration kind of emails and those results that can absolutely turn into yeses, as can your opinion on some of the schools that you might immediately not have gone, "I'm in love." But as you do your work, as you visit, you may go, "Oh, I actually see why they accepted me and why this fit is so great," and you may get to that thrilled place.

[2:22] So what I'll say in general, just keep fighting for yourself, keep seeing this process through. Just like the showcase advice I gave last week about your ego, try not to let that initial disappointment, if you feel some initial disappointment, try not to let that little poke to your ego stop you from continuing to compete and continue to achieve what is out there and achievable in front of you. There is still more work to be done in terms of your follow-up with those schools where you have connections. And I'm going to talk a little bit more just so we know two weeks from now about how to choose schools in that upcoming episode, so stay tuned for that. We'll talk a little bit more about school choice.

[2:56] For our juniors, sophomores, freshmen, if you're an MTCAer, please don't forget about this month of expiring early bird discounts. You have just a few days left now to get that summer faculty masterclass week at the cheapest price available. And that's also true for the last chance to get the all-access pass while it still includes all of our offerings. So please consider now how you're going to map out your year of events with us and make a plan. And if you are not yet an MTCAer, what the heck is wrong with you? Come check us out and see how we can help you in an a la carte way. Even if you have someone helping you in some aspects or even a lot of aspects, I'll bet there's something we can provide you value to if you were to sit down for an initial consult with us.

[3:37] So of course, as we always say, we love all our listeners out there, MTCA and non. There's absolutely no pressure to become an MTCA student, but just a little bit of pressure, a tiny little bit of pressure. My dad would say a teeny tiny little bit of pressure. All right, let's get to this interview with Dr. David Herendeen. It is one we've been trying to schedule for a while, but our busy schedules kept getting in the way. And I'm so thrilled to finally have Oklahoma City represented on the podcast.

[3:59] Okay, well, we are so excited to be joined by Dr. David Herendeen. Dr. David has, Dr. H, we are saying, has a bachelor in vocal performance from Oberlin and a master's in music theater from the same, a doctorate in vocal performance with specialties in drama and vocal pedagogy from the University of Arizona. He created the role of Roderick Usher in the world premiere of the Fall of the House of Usher, as well as lots of other really exciting performance credits. It says here he has directed and produced hundreds of musicals and operas and plays, hundreds, my gosh. I'm in the well over a hundred, let's say that, well over a hundred.

[4:41] Before becoming the director of opera and musical theater at Oklahoma City University, which is located in Oklahoma City, they take about 40 people across the two degrees of MT and vocal performance, which we'll talk about. They offer a BFA in acting, a BM in music theater, a BM in vocal performance. David, officially welcome on the show. How are you feeling today?

[4:59] David Herendeen: I'm feeling good, my friend. Thank you very much.

[5:02] Charlie Murphy: I'm so happy to have you. We've been scheduling this for nigh on months, many months of trying to get this to happen. And I'm so glad we could do it today. Before, I really want to dive into OKCU a little bit more specifically, but, you know, I read that brief bio on you. Give me a 60 second, like any other fun facts, tidbits on sort of your journey to OKCU of how you put what the people should know.

[5:25] David Herendeen: Yeah, yeah. It's, you know, it's, it's, I really wanted to do exactly this. You're seeing a person that's 100 percent overjoyed with where his life path took him because I wanted to be a stage director in both opera and musical theater in a university because the opportunities to do just so many purposeful things and creative things are great there. But for that, I really was pretty planned, pretty strategic, because to get an academic job, you've got to have those fancy academic degrees and you've got to have a certain amount of professional experience. And so all the stuff that I did was, was, I think, pretty guided and shaped toward this end.

[6:06] Now, I, one of the, my market was that I'd been doing musicals since I was 13, you know, just summer stock and things like that. And of course, you fall in love with stage performance with musicals. But by the time I got into college, it became very, very clear to me that my market, and I talk a lot about this with my students, is market was definitely operatic, that I was, I could do musicals and not get paid very much. And, and, and, but I could do operas and my bigger resume items are definitely in opera. And so, yeah, this is, this is, this is the thing. You deal with the market, you deal with what you can.

[6:47] And I think, and, and so I ended up, you know, going, here's one of the cool things. I was one of the resident baritones at the Berlin Opera when the Berlin Wall was up. I lived behind the Berlin Wall. You're dating yourself for these poor people. People who are watching the video, you have the voice of a 30-year-old. They never know. Well, and I do, I do. When I was a toddler, you were a baritone. I was a baritone at the Deutsche Oper Berlin. Yeah. So this was, that's kind of a cool thing, you know, one of those cool little items in the history. And I've taught, you know, all over the place and just have a wide experience. But I channel all this.

[7:31] But listen, I've had, I've made so many incredibly beautiful, gorgeous mistakes. And in my life, and I just channel all this experience into my program and guiding my students. Yeah. It's just passionate. And that parallels us perfectly into talking about OKCU and sort of the kind of program that it is, you know, you mentioned that intersection for yourself. I'm excited to talk about the intersection a little more specifically, but, but just from a broad perspective, you know, when you think about the kind of student who chooses OKCU and sort of what the program is in an overarching sense, what do you think distinguishes it from other, especially musical theater programs?

[8:04] David Herendeen: Well, I think, I think, first of all, let's go to the results of the program. We get our people prepared. So when they enter and start their adventure as a performer, they are aware of what's going on. They feel very prepared. They know how to work the body instrument, their head and heart. And they're very aware of the professional world. And they have contacts. They're literate musicians, literate actors. And like the many successful programs, they go in there prepared to begin their unique adventure.

[8:43] We, I think there's sometimes confusion. We're a Bachelor of Music in Musical Theater. And the question I get all the time, I did Chicago Unified a couple of weeks ago. Yes, we're just back from it. Yeah. Yeah. And it was, it was great because the big question I get is that I know you're a music degree and therefore, and the assumption is somehow there is a diminishment of something that may be a BFA program. And it's really just not that true. They get oodles of acting, oodles of dance. This is a doctoral term. You can't use oodles until you're a doctor. And all that because it's a very balanced degree. I will say that as a student going there becomes a literate musician. And I think that that is often something that might be diminished in other degrees. Reading the music, we wouldn't want to leave school and not be able to read the words of a script.

[9:47] Yeah. And I think sometimes that it can get diminished. Now, the good schools all prepare everybody. But I think the best part about our school is the embedded cross-pollination. We do something like 40 to 45 productions in the nine months. Now, in the Performing Arts, we have the School of Dance, we have the School of Theater, the School of Music, and the School of Music is where the music theater and opera programs reside. But there's no walls, really no walls. And our students audition for freaking everything. Plays. I just had one of my students in a production of King Lear, Shakespeare. I've just been giving OK-ing students to go perform at some stage readings, original plays. It's an immersion and cross-pollination that there's no compartmentalization. There's great respect across these. And I just think it's the best thing. Film on camera. You know, the whole thing. And it is fluid and liquid. And we all get along together.

[10:50] Another thing. The voice teachers like the stage director. The stage director likes the voice teacher. We like the tech theater and the BFA acting. We get along together. It's pretty ridiculously nice. You're describing to me, you said a liquid program with no walls. It's gooey. It's full of love. I'm very excited about this. And I think we talked about it a bit before on the show, but I think really worth saying and reiterating the difference in this case between a BM and a BFA. You're talking about maybe a difference in color, but not a difference, not a huge distinction in terms of the amount of credits. Can we talk a little bit about what that what it means curriculum wise in terms of, right, are they getting maybe a little bit more music and a little bit more benefit from, you know, that option of living within the school of music versus, you know, someplace where they live in the school of theater. But what does that mean in terms of their percentage of time acting, singing, dancing across the four years?

[11:48] David Herendeen: Yeah, that's actually a good question, because there are when I look at my colleagues, the students who are doing the BFA and acting, they get some things that are specifically diction for the actors, but we'll give diction for the singers, which the IP and blah, blah, blah. So there's similarity, but not the same sort of thing. They don't my music theater majors don't have stage combat. They do have on camera. They will be taking the music skills course, the theory and oral skills, and they'll be taking choir for a few semesters at ensemble singing. This is probably different from most. Most BFAs would take ensemble singing. Yep, yep, yep. But I think it's good for them. I do. I think it's I think that that ear, that crisp sound that that blend, that sense of other when creating sound is so automatically aligned.

You don't have to work for it. I don't know that there is there is a little different. But of course, they have I think most people worry about the acting. They have a freshman performers lab, which is a first semester course with me that I sort of acclimate them because everybody's different and neurotic in when they come there. So and it's a very vulnerable semester. So I acclimate them to our world and how our world relates to the industry they're going to be entering into in about four years.

[13:05] And then, of course, they have acting one. They have acting two with the School of Theater. Then they have the musical acting the song, which is how we take these things and and and the acting one's skills, ideas and migrate them to creating the art and the song. Then they take Shakespeare or Chekhov. And if they have room, they can do Shakespeare or Chekhov. And our one of the cool things is our summer abroad program where they can do that, take their Shakespeare credits in London and then go to this Fringe Festival in Scotland. So we're pretty groovy that way.

[13:39] Charlie Murphy: And then you mentioned, sorry, you mentioned that they take at the School of Theater. Is that interacting and interspersed with the acting students, the acting?

[13:46] David Herendeen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Every the School of Dance, though, because we have like one of the top entertainment dance programs in the nation. So our students, that's what I was talking about. No walls, there's cross-pollination and they are musical theater. So you are taking dance with the dance majors. Yep. And acting with that, because nobody's actually that great at anything at this age. Right. But they all.

[14:09] David Herendeen: Here's where I think we really develop a sense of respect. So we don't have this idea of other, right? Oh, they're a BFA acting major. They dress in black and smoke. Oh, that's a music theater major. They entertain. Oh, that's an opera singer. They sit there and sing loud. You know, that sense of other, we have a real sense of respect for each other in the programs. You're calling me out because of my black shirt as an actor. I hear you, Dr. H. I hear you. I got you, man. You just need the beret. Yeah, I need the cigarette, really. Let's talk through, so specifically, you know, we talked about 40 students across the two degrees of MT and vocal performance in terms of how you bring those cohorts together.

Can we talk about sort of the interactions, the interplay between the vocal performance and the musical theater? And then just what it is, what's combined and then what's separate about those two programs? You know, there's almost nothing separate about them. Everybody that is an opera major auditions for the musicals. Everybody who is a music theater major auditions for the operas. Everybody, they are not required to audition for the plays, but boy, I sure nagged them. So this intersection, this cross-pollination is just embedded in the culture. They will, the voice faculty, I can't say enough about our voice faculty. They're phenomenal.

[15:24] David Herendeen: Including one of MTCA's own, Courtney Krause on the voice faculty? Oh, gosh, a total babe. Just, that's what I would have said to a babe. That would have been what I would have led with. Well, you know, she's just makes me and all around just makes me giggle and she's so great and brilliant and yeah, yeah. And well, you know, the quality and her colleagues, we just know how to just, just know how to work together. We ask questions of each other. We have to gang up on these young, sassy, smart, talented neurotic students. Yep. When we do. And is there something to the vocal training? You know, I'm actually thinking, you know, my wife is a really successful musical theater performer who also has, it's now a BS, but she started at Indiana with a BM and she is in the musical theater world, very opera trained compared to other musical theater majors, right?

Is there something that for the music theater majors, are they going to get more sort of classical training or a different kind of vocal training that might exist at other BFA musical theater? That's a really, I mean, that's a really good question. Let me shape the answer to the actual, the efficacy of what we do. This quote unquote, classical music training, the traditional Italian music training is the way that one creates the muscle synergy, the physiological ability for the performer to apply their voice to any style they want. That's how it works. It's like doing sit-ups. This is the ballet of the voice or whatever. Exactly. Then that's what we do, jazz, tap, ballet, but ballet is what everybody does.

And it's the, it is that starting point. Nobody, everybody, oh my God, our women are these apex belters. There's nothing they can't sing. And, but they also have this wonderful ability to shift to the mood modality of whatever the style requires. And that comes from the foundation where they're just, it's muscle balance, understanding of the voice. And that's, I tell this to the students, like I say, how old are you? They say 18. I said, you got less than a year to be 18. Then you're 19. Then you're 20. You got to know how this body instrument is used to track and shape because you're going to change every year. And the industry is going to change every year. You got to know what you're doing.

So it's career and vocal health and knowledge. And yeah, it takes like four years to really hit it too. And does that mean you're literally doing some singing in Italian, singing in French, those kinds of things? Yeah. Yeah. Mostly, mostly Italian. If a kid comes in and they dig French and they took some French in high school, we'll get it because the songs are the tools. These songs are the tools. Nobody's going to make their career in Schubert's recitals until you're famous and then people will. But they are tools to build the voice. And Schubert can teach things that Sondheim can't and vice versa. Yep. And then you're going to work up through musical theater. Then you're going to hit all these different styles and pop and all those things as the years go.

Yeah. MT Workshop, we have three sections of MT Workshop and it goes through this. The second, MT Workshop 2, really focuses on, though we all, you're always doing the variety of repertoire, but it really has a section really talking about the variety of pop material, stylistic differences and approaches to that. So it's focused on that.

[18:58] David Herendeen: I love it. You mentioned already the contacts that your students have and sort of their preparation for the business. Can you talk a little bit about, you know, through that senior year and I guess starting earlier, but then into the beyond, into their lunch, into the business, sort of what does OKCU give you as a young student, as you're starting out with your career? Sure. You run into people all the time because there's very rarely a tour that comes through that we don't have an alum and they're really wonderful. They say, hey, come and talk to our classes, that sort of thing. We have a very, I would tell you, and I think our alumni advocacy and our alumni relationships is, I think it's the envy of everybody, because every spring break, our alumni organize something where OCU students come to New York City, sleep on couches and sort of a demystification of New York City and clarification in New York City of the business.

And they do master classes. They have, oh, people from other than alumni of other schools come in, casting directors, talent agents, and just sort of demystifying New York City. And of course, we have people come in. We have four showcases, a Chicago showcase where the industry reps come to Oklahoma City and do master classes and audition people, a Dallas showcase, which is like that and people come up. And then we have an L.A. showcase where our students, and this is primarily on camera, television, blah, blah, blah. They go and meet members of the industry, do auditions and get acclimated to that. And then, of course, we have the New York showcase, which is always the Tuesday after our graduation.

And it is well, I think it's well represented by the industry and well responded to. I think that is the most showcases I've heard yet. Other schools have three. I'm not sure I've heard one that has New York, Chicago, L.A. and Dallas as a foursome. It's very cool.

[20:53] David Herendeen: Tell me a little bit about the experience of the school outside of the theater program and outside of the music theater and a dance program. So, you know, what am I getting from a university perspective out of Oklahoma City? And then kind of what is the campus like? So what's the feeling of the school and then what I'm also getting academically, et cetera. OK, it's a little cute campus, traditional. It's got gothic towers, a nice grassy quad. It's got these wonderful like the basketball of music is this ridiculously beautiful building with big rehearsal halls. One of my buddies, the casting director, Arnold Manjoli, I even invited him come to do a masterclass. He walked into our large rehearsal hall and he said, David, David, you're lying to them.

They will never, ever see anything like this in New York. It was hilarious. But I said, what do you want me to do? You know, I mean, OK, but it is it. But it's so it's a lovely campus. You can walk from the dormitory. Here's one of the idiosyncrasies we have. One of our dormitories is called Cokesbury and one of our dormitories is called Methodist and they're referred to as Coke and meth. So this is a really stimulating environment. I'm sure the parents would love to hear that. That's true. But you got to accept me for what I am, friends and parents and all. But it's it's very, very, very tiny. And you can walk across campus in 15 minutes, even though that happens. People are still late for class.

It just confounds me. And I don't think it has to do with the campus. But there's no there's no sports. How does it work in terms of other opportunities or other clubs or what would my experience of the school? Yeah, there's it's an NIA level sports school. We have though we do have NCAA wrestling. We do have I mean, I think if I may say, I think sports are exactly the way they ought to be. They're really good. They're really competitive. Wonderful basketball. Wonderful. But it's not the driving force. You're not dressed up in blue paint every Friday night. No, no, no. We're the we're the flagship. You're the exciting thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're the we're the thing, you know, which I think is kind of cool.

I remember saying that I used to say that about Carnegie Mellon. I was like, we're cooler than the football team. Like, it's very weird. Like, we're the cool kids on campus. You are. And you have two names. Yeah, that's right.

[23:11] David Herendeen: What about academics? We didn't talk much about. So first, in what opportunities there are, but then also like what that looks like in terms of what percentage of time you're spending outside of the artistic world for you as a student? Good, good question. It's a liberal arts education. And I really believe in it, though it's a liberal arts education with a conservatory level intensity to the performance programs. There's no such thing as a well rested performance student. It's just that we do so many. We have there's so many audition opportunities and things like this. And you are balancing that with required academics. You have a certain amount of requirements. Now, many of our students and I think we bring in some really smart, sassy students have AP credits, have concurrent enrollment with things.

And so they come in having taken some of what we call the general education courses. And of course, those spaces, credit hour spaces, let's say you've got three credit hours because you passed out of Spanish. You can use that then to customize and do something extra, like take Chekhov and Shakespeare or take more coachings or repeat a couple of repeatable classes. But there are it's a good, solid liberal arts degree, because as you know, if we're going to be representing the world dramatically, you probably should know what the world is, art history, language, writing, poetry. So we have some really good. And so there's depending on what what you come in with, it's like third home, and I should do my homework on this, like 38 general education credit hours.

Are you still? Yeah, I see perfectly. How many total credits would that look like? So 38 is about what percent of credit? I think we got about one hundred and I think it's like one one two four. Man, I should have done my my. We're going to say like a quarter of the credits are. So it's seventy five, twenty five, some kind of balance. Something like that. Something like that. And that's fine. And then what does that mean in terms of how many of your students get a minor, get maybe a non academic minor? Very few. I'm really hard to get a minor because the credit hours and the menu, the professional training programs are rigorous and full of all those things. They just are. You're not going to get a now a couple of our majors and one of our vocal performance majors, opera majors came in with so many AP courses. She was able to get a business degree. But this is an anomaly. Yeah, this this is anomalous.

[25:45] David Herendeen: And then what about within the program? You mentioned some of the ways you can customize by you could take that extra check of class, like how much percentage, how much is prescribed in advance of going over the four years? I'm doing exactly this. And how much is customizable to go? I want to go take that extra class that's in the dance department or the extra acting class or those kind of things. Very little wiggle room. Right. There's just very little because there's just a lot of a lot of stuff. It's just it's just simple as that. But most everybody doesn't. And I recommend that they try to knock off a couple of those credit hours and then open up. It's quite a relieving sort of thing. Oh, you know, it just gives you a wiggle room because it's rigorous.

It's rigorous, for sure. You mentioned you said sassy a couple of times. There's something particularly sassy about your students. Is it something you look for in a student, a sassiness or is that just I think I think I like that word because I think most of our musical theater students that I've run into, not just ours, has to have this kind of, I don't know, joie de vivre and fearlessness, I think. And sassy is a nice way to kind of, you know, I'm a total dad and that's it's a nice way to say spunky, tough. My two words that I say all the time when the Freshman Performers Lab and they hear it all the time is I expect them to face everything with joy and grit in that order. You've got to you've got to have this feed you in the heart, but you've got to be tough.

There is just it's just not as easy as I think people dream it is, you know, that. And how much more it's about grit than talent sometimes. I mean, when you get to New York, everybody's talented and who's got the intuitiveness. Well said. Now, anybody coming to my program, hear what he just said. Yeah, that is it's just you got to stay there. You got to you because you're going to be disappointed. It doesn't matter if you got the lead in your college productions almost every semester. So did everybody. But no, there's that combination of joy and grit. So well said, because it's it takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of grit to keep the joy. I feel like what people lose sometimes even before they lose the grit, they lose the joy.

And then they're showing up cynical to auditions and you're like, well, you're showing up, but you're not really showing up for yourself. You're not really. Yeah, that's a whole other podcast. But let's talk a little bit about where your students come from. So so where over the country and over the world in terms of sort of breakdown of where they come from. And then I also want to hear a little bit about with those four showcases where they end up. So first, where do they come from? And then about where do you see them sort of go to? I'm.

[28:18] David Herendeen: I like that question so much because I think very many people think that everybody comes from Oklahoma. Hell, people think I come from Oklahoma. I'm a Northeast liberal, man. I never thought I would be living in Oklahoma. I thought I'd be next to an ocean. I'm landlocked here, but I'm happy. It is ironic that I'm here in a fun way. But we have students from about 38 different states last semester, 38 or 39 different states in four or five different countries. And so you'll just if I just go through my Freshman Performance Lab and I have them so they hear this, I go down the line and have them say where they're from, what city, and it's all over the place. I don't think there's, yeah, I don't think there's a state that I have not had a student from. Did I say that? Well, yes. And yeah, over this time.

[29:10] Charlie Murphy: And then what about do you have a sense of where they end up? Do most of the musical people end up in New York? How many in Chicago, L.A., Atlanta, those kind of places?

[29:18] David Herendeen: This is interesting. My BFA acting students have a great presence in Chicago. They have a great many alumni, not to say that some of them don't go to New York City and L.A. But I know maybe it's because I went to Chicago Unified and we had a little alumni get together and there was a lot of my BFA friends there and alumni there. The musical theater people go. Some of them have gone to Dallas just because it's close by. And there's a little, there's a wonderful little professional theater company there and not company but atmosphere there. And they get credits, build it up and go to New York. Well, everybody ends up trying out New York City. Yeah, they do. And some of them really a lot of them are drawn to going to the cruise or Disney where they can, you know, knock off their student debt. We've got a lot to go into cruises and intentionally to build that war chest. But ultimately, everybody goes to New York City to try them, try it out.

[30:30] Charlie Murphy: Totally. OK, only a few more questions before we take a little break here. I want to talk a little bit about cost. So our crack research team found tuition of about thirty thousand a year.

[30:35] David Herendeen: Yeah, it's accurate. What does that look like in terms of what do most students actually pay when you talk about after the sticker price and how does that work with when you talk about academic merit, talent need? What is the primary driver down of those costs?

[30:48] David Herendeen: Well, not like every school. And we've got to get tuition isn't the only cost. They have room and board. Right. Which which everybody has room and board. And then there are some fees unique to certain majors. For example, a music theater major has an accompanist fee that they pay because we have people we have and you're so spoiled here with the pianistic support. So there is an additional cost. But nobody comes here without scholarship. There are two levels of scholarship. There's their academic scholarship, that when they apply to the university and irrespective of the audition that's coming, they will look at the academic history, where you went to school, what you took, blah, blah, blah. And we'll give you a scholarship in relationship to that. Then when you audition, there are school scholarships offered to an individual. So I think I think somebody can just expect a chunk of that tuition to be paid by us.

[32:09] Charlie Murphy: Yep. And we say school specific, you mean artistic related scholarships based on the artistic merit?

[32:12] David Herendeen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just just and also, you know, we can't have 50 sopranos. Yeah, we those scholarships and believe it or not, when somebody is accepted, they don't always want to come here. Yeah, it's shocking. We'll talk about that in the schools. But on those schools and but we so so there are some target but I don't like to call them talent scholarships. It's everybody's talent. But there are we have certain needs. We want to make sure that we have a male female balance. We want to have a voice quality balance so that, you know, and I do like to have a diverse and when I say diversity, I'm not I'm talking about height, just optics of a different diversity, not just not just skin color, which is, of course, important.

[33:06] Charlie Murphy: But you're saying some of those scholarships are subjective based on those needs of what you're trying to do to figure out your...

[33:10] David Herendeen: I need, I need, listen, I can't teach six foot two. Yeah, right. I don't want them to look a cookie cutter. I don't want all boys, all girls look the same. God knows that's not what the world and God knows that's who teaches them.

[33:23] Charlie Murphy: Yep. Well, and let's talk a little bit about the world. I'll end on the sort of a tough question is this is, you know, we'll talk about you were at our Oklahoma City. We had a private audition represented our MTC private edition. But the one of the big questions we got from families in general wasn't just you, but also University of Oklahoma was there and in Florida. You know, this is something that comes up more and more in the past, certainly past decade, but even more this past year of just, you know, you mentioned being a northeast liberal from our families who are from the northeast who are going, what is Oklahoma going to feel like? Even if you tell me the blue dot within a Red Sea, what does that really mean and feel like from a perspective of safety if I'm sending my child to Oklahoma?

[34:03] David Herendeen: Yeah, yeah. And I I think that's a really good question. And I understand that question. And I have been here for a long time and I have never, ever felt any aggressive pushback on my views that the thing and if you ask all of my guests who come here, the first timers always have they're looking over their shoulder. They're just wondering what sort of MAGA quality is going to be around them. And we don't have that sort of aggressive quality. Friendly. Hello. How are you? Have a nice day. They don't jump to politics and no, we have a we have a I think we have a really strong gay community. We have some we have a place called the boom, which is where we have our female impersonators. I mean, it's it's a really strong and they don't feel unsafe.

Yeah. And and I and I get it, though. I get it. And it's also a city that is really working to it's not a renaissance. It's more of a nascence. It's becoming to trying to be a city in full invite business. And you I swear one only hears the absurdity in Oklahoma. You know how people in New Jersey is always kind of the butt of a joke nationally. But but all those things are true about Jersey, the exception, because it's definitely true about Jersey until you start going down that beautiful coast, until you start going south. It is a lot. I'm just joking. Jersey, you can tell I'm joking. No, but but but Oklahoma makes itself a butt of a joke in that way. And it deserves it in so many ways. Right.

There are stupid things that go on here, but they really don't impact us. I do think they impact the quality of our K through 12 education, which makes me cry. Yeah, it's so sad. But it doesn't. But I'm a I'm a private school. I have my little world. Yeah. And my little world is is I think thoughtful my my colleagues and you're right, it is a little dot in a big dot, but we're a loud dot. And I think our program is part of what's making the city better and grow. And here's my challenge to anybody who has these concerns. Are you gonna come and help? Where do you think the work needs to be? Where do you think our progressive, positive attitude is needed the most? It is in a place here that's safe and we help your positiveness radiate out.

[37:11] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. So I think of it as a altruistic thing as well.

[37:15] David Herendeen: Yeah. And are there ways in which the university helps to kind of inoculate their students against the Red Sea? I mean, I think I had a family sort of say, like, well, my child is trans. I can't imagine sending them.

[37:26] David Herendeen: I'm trans. I'm trans here. I think the school does to help, you know, sort of protect them from laws or from lawmakers or things that feel like, oh, the outside world is coming at them.

[37:37] David Herendeen: Very well. Yes. The answer is this bubble is an armored bubble. Nobody screws with my students. Nobody, no, no, nobody would dare. And the university is very our president just, you know, just wrote a beautiful letter about, oh, there was something that had happened about funding. Right. It's the funding. He said, don't worry about it. We were going to be facing these challenges for a while. But the university is I want to assure you that this university is going to take care of things. And it was the president just was sensitive to this reality. But we're just everybody's really comfortable. And it is not nearly as oppressive as one might think. And it's much, much, actually, more, more friendly and kind. And may I help you? Sort of.

[38:29] Charlie Murphy: I will take a short break on the back and we'll talk a little bit more about the audition process. So back in a flash.

[38:33] David Herendeen: Sure. OK, well, we are back with Dr. David Herrendeen. And we talk a little bit about the audition process. And I want to start broad and then we'll get more specific. Just broadly, you mentioned looking for sassy students. But what are you looking for in the audition room? So as you're making a determination, some people are going to be yes, some people are no. What is it primarily that you're looking for as you do the auditions that you're sniffing out of why someone would be a good fit for OKC or not?

[39:01] David Herendeen: So, of course, this is filtered through my individual perspective. And the good thing about OCU is that I don't rule this world, right? I'm not trying to be an emperor like we see in things recently. I'm a true partner, program partner. So everybody has an opinion. So when people will sing for our voice faculty, they will do monologues for my colleague Karen Miller and me. They will have a dance audition. So there's three different phases. And in these phases, I get I'm privy to two out of the three, though I do see the vocal auditions through film and such. But I look for, you know, we talk about that joy and grit. If I could reduce it down to that, I like to see the joy, the person maybe who isn't the best dancer, but is, you know, smiling and and and flashing and doing it and giving to me the auditor.

I like that. I when in the monologue room, well, I talk a lot. I love the monologues and monologues. I can sometimes they're way over coached. Sometimes it's not the best material, but I try to, you know, sometimes I give notes and see how they receive notes. And it's all to try to get this combination to reveal the person I want to work with for four years and how they are going to fit into, I think, a program that that really people are competitive, but in a in the best possible way. I don't know how to say this. I don't accept jerks. Yes. If I have any indication somebody's a poop, they can go be famous someplace else. Yeah, I like I just like that sense. And we really try to bump into it.

That's why we love it when people come and audition on site, which is becoming much more rare for monetary reasons. Yeah. And but I'd like to be like Chicago Unified. I just 150 people. I was dizzy after three days. But boy, was it fun to meet everybody. And that's good advice. Don't be a poop. That's we could put that on a bumper sticker if we needed.

[41:31] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. Yeah. Well, we've all been in a production where one person can stink it. Yeah. Right. And I don't have to I don't have to pick anybody who does. No, you don't need too many good people. You don't need to pick the poops. There's plenty of good.

[41:43] Charlie Murphy: Let's talk about the prescreens a little bit. So how are you viewing the prescreen prescreen video? I want to both first here and like, how is it used for that culling down to who's going to get a callback? And then is it used later in the process, too? Is it sent to other faculty? How is that that prescreen being passed around?

[42:01] David Herendeen: The prescreen is sent to all of us. And we we slog through them. And now the prescreens, I must say, we do spread a wide net with the prescreens. Now, there are some definite no's and most when the no's it is is when somebody is really not well with me that they are clueless with the music. They're there. I don't want to

[42:28] David Herendeen: But having some real distress maintaining in the belly of the beat. I do believe there are some people who are just screeching and actually I can hear pretty well if there's vocal damage. And these are the things that we just, I think, probably help us not invite them. I believe in grace to young students. They aren't always accurate with the music, but you can tell when they're just plain not caring whether they got the notes right in a song that we all know, Corner of the Sky, you know, and they start writing their own music. I just don't know if, I mean, that's a thing, right? Because there's lots of people who stay true to the music, who are accurate, who try to create within the guidelines that the creative teams gave you.

There's lots of them. And so, in a sense, we can discard the unripe bananas. But we do do a big net and invite people to audition. Yep. And then what are you looking for? Basically, are the pre-screens then viewed after the audition as well? And then also, what are you looking for in the callback audition that might differ from the pre-screen? So now you see they're musically accurate. I'm hearing some vocal talent, whatever those things that you're initially doing. What are you then sniffing for other than not being a poop in the callback? Yeah, yeah. And poop aside, you use sniffing. You're freaking funny. That is so good. I think levels of the all-encompassing performers. I don't expect people to sing every style well, right?

And some people come in and they really only know how to belt and are unfamiliar with that balanced musculature that we spoke to that allows them to dimensionalize their vocal talent. But our voice faculty are phenomenal. We got this. If it's the instrument and the sense of use of the instrument, the potential is really important in both ways. We've got people that, believe it or not, every now and then can't belt. Really an interesting thing. But we know how to get through these things. I do like respect for the music as we spoke of before. I don't know about you, and I don't know if you've talked. There is a plague of riffing these days. It's becoming... I'm stunned. I saw so much riffing on things and then riffing that's not even stylistically correct.

Doing a contemporary pop riff to a Sondheim piece was like chewing aluminum for me. Well, in some ways you do see it celebrated professionally. All the kids, I don't know if you saw Chicago Unifies, they all did a flash mob where they were all singing Seasons of Love, I think it was. But then they were all competing with their Elphaba riffs of which one was who's doing Idina, who's doing Cynthia Erivo. It is certainly something that's celebrated at the top level of musical theater. Oh, yeah. And it's understandable. But louder, bigger, higher, faster does not mean good. There's a flashiness to it, like kicking your face in dance, which you go, that's not everything. It's cool that you did that, but there's also some foundational stuff.

I also listen to when they do do that and when they opt up to things, if they realize that they're redlining, if the point is to sing really high but harmfully and ugly, if they don't have this sort of awareness, like, am I driving according to the road conditions, you know, or just fast? So anyway, that's a really long, obtuse way to say I listen for respect for the material they created. I do ask them, like, what show it's from, who composed it, and I ask them things like who wrote the lyrics, which always confounds them. They're like, I don't know, they're just there. And how much, it sounds like you're speaking a little toward this, which may be a little different than every school. Are you looking specifically for vocal versatility?

Like, are you looking to see here, oh, I hear how you sing within different styles, meaning this legit, you're belting this way, here's this pop sound. Like, do you like hearing that difference? Yeah, it doesn't hurt, right? It doesn't hurt this idea of, wow, this person is already at this level, and for us to then to shape and push and polish to this ideal. You know, there are some, the real sense of what an ideal music theater performer is in it, which is versatility, which is helpful singing, awareness of it, and the get-off-your-assiness of it, you know, the grit I think we're talking about. There's this stoop of talent that we look for indications, and those are the people that, you know, really fall in.

We get a sense, and you know, it's amazing how we all tend to recognize that during the audition. We just, we get a sense of that. Yep, I love it. I'd love to hear a little bit about, so once a student, you mentioned they already would get an academic scholarship, but basically, how does it work from an academic perspective? If you like a student artistically, have, if they've already applied to the university and they've passed, are you done with the academic side of things? How does the interaction with academics in terms of the Department of Admissions, how does that work for you if you're like, I want somebody, and they potentially would say yes or no from their end? Well, I don't, I, if it's going to sound, I don't think academically that it's not like Harvard or Yale, right?

That we've got, we want good, solid students. So you're going to be able, I think a good, solid, hardworking student, the type that really we see all the time, and if you want to call them, you know, choir and music nerds or whatever, we're pretty damn smart. Sure. So, so I don't think that is going to be difficult. We have had people with low test scores that are really extraordinary talents when you want to, they're all encompassing thing, and we have, we have a process where we have petitioned and advocate for them in review, and then we have, let's say somebody comes in and they're just, they're not the greatest study, we do have tutoring, we recognize this, we just don't throw them into the deep end and say, survive academically.

So we're very good. Oklahoma City University is quite good in taking care of the idiosyncrasies of the individual student, whether it's an academic challenge for tutoring, whether it's, it's the, some of our students, I mean, not even some, quite have some mental health anxieties and things that manifest themselves different way, and we have an extraordinarily thoughtful counseling service. We have, we have emotional first aid training, the faculty, and, and it's, it's, it's the reality of our world, and we don't ignore it, we address it in a good way. So we're all, and I think it's really fortunate, we're all, all students have one-on-one experiences, all students are around people that are paying attention.

So when somebody's not eating, and I see this every now and then, somebody's not eating, I, it's either poverty, or it's, it's, I'm not eating for emotional reasons, so I address it, and I'll take them shopping, or I will take them to the counselor, but, but I'm going to do something, and I, and I'm not the only one, my colleagues are that way, and this is the attitude of the faculty, the part of the ganging up, because I know that these students are the most precious possession of their parents, and I take, I'm a dad, you, you're a dad, right? It's, I take that so seriously, and, and, and it's, and the university, it supports that as well. I don't know if I answered anything. You answered a great question, it wasn't exactly the question I asked, but I like what, I like where we went, but coming back a little to the academic side of things, I guess, just wondering, do you see any parts of the academic application, meaning basically, do you look at the SATs and grades, do you read the essays, do you read letters or brackets, anything that you see on the academic end?

All right, here's the evil thing, I don't read them. Right. I, I, when I have them, I can, I can see, when I get the little sheet that I, where I put in my comments, I can look up and see the ACT or SAT, and I don't know, I think, man, I'm old school, you know, because that, like, made, meant, meant something to me, and I don't know that it doesn't mean something. Yeah. But I'll, I'll recognize, and we get a lot of, we got a lot of 30, 31 ACTs, a lot of them, that's, and, but I don't, I don't read the essays, and the letters of recommendation, the audition, and the interview, and the interaction, oh, here's one thing that's real important, and I say this to parents, parents, you've got to let your kid apply to the school, you've got to let your kid communicate with student services, you've got to have your kid communicate with me, because I gotta, because if it's you, there's two things, I don't know if your kid can do it, and the other thing is, I'm not sure I want to go to school with you over the 40.

I'll give you a thing, I know, I got, I got called by a parent, who was very frustrated with my grade on a paper that I'd given the kid, in the conversation, I realized that this was the first B the parent had ever received on a writing project, so I thought it was adorable, and we, we want to know that they can do it now, in this bubble of academia, so I know they can do it when they're out there, when nobody gives a damn about them, and, and so let them, because we're pretty compassionate, let them communicate with me, answer the questions, I think that's a real important thing for parents to do, because boy, it's tough for parents, how old is your daughter? Three, three, so you've got, you've got some time, yeah, right now, in another year, your kid's going to have an opinion on what they wear, if not already, and then where the keys to the car, she's already got an opinion on it, it's just what she wears is ridiculous, but she's got it, we let her dress however she wants, you mentioned this, that you like to talk a lot with your students when they're in those auditions, so at Chicago Unified, you know, you mentioned the redirect that you might give them, adjustments that you might give them, yeah, for some stuff they do, well, what does that interview look like for you, in terms of what kind of questions are you asking, and then again, like, what are you looking for in that interaction from the students?

Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give some of my stuff away, so I might have to change it, so I often ask them, like, one of the first things I said, I, I, I just break this with things they don't expect, so what, what's your high school, and I say, what are the school colors, what's the mascot, do you like the mascot, what, and I just think they don't expect that, then I, one of the things I ask, if you were a novel, what would your title be, and what genre, and then I start, one of the things that I really love, I find I'm attracted to are students who read, who enjoy reading, and who, because I find that that is a real indicator of how, I can almost hear it when they render the lyrics of a song, I can hear them sing the punctuation, which they do when they read, and, and, and so we, we venture into those things that define them, what genre did they like, and man, they're thinking about the, the title of them as book is really a fun thing to watch.

That's a great question, and now, okay, all the podcast listeners, now you're all cued and ready for this, so don't come into Dr. H and be like, here's what I'm doing, and I'm, here's my title, like, you can't, you got to let him have the interview experience, sometimes they like to be like, look, I promise I already heard you, right, right, that's okay, I, I'll get them, I got a couple other ones, okay, good, yeah, some of the back pocket, I like that, you bet, I also love that you, you mentioned at the beginning, it's, it's calling back to, you said they're, the actors are literate, and your musicians are literate, that's not always a word that you use, I hear literate when I think, as a musician, I'm not sure that we always think of like, yeah, the lyrics that you have to be literate as well, it's not just musical on the music, but also, but when you think, when you think of those little black dots and those things like, that's code, that's just like computer code, and you can look at it and not know what the one zero one one one zero zero backslash whatever it means, none of us do, of course, right, none of us do, but, but you can with, with pretty easily with the music, and the more you know, the more you look at a page of those little black dots, and all of a sudden, it, it's like the matrix, all of a sudden, it becomes making sense, you start seeing it, the densities, the activity that, that, that surrounds that melodic line and surrounds those words, and it becomes so much easier for you to directly attune your head and heart to the, to the material on the page that you're going to deliver as a consumer product, so it just makes it easier, and you don't have to spend 180 bucks for a coach to teach up at midnight the day before your callback from a casting director, because you can just read the stuff, you can just read it, yeah, that's our last episode that aired today, it's airing today with Mary Mitchell Campbell, that was one of her pieces of advice was going, everybody should be able to read music and teach yourself that, yeah, at the very basic level, and if you don't play beautifully, like, can you at least read music and teach yourself how to, how to do the thing, yeah, my last question on the audition is just

[56:37] David Herendeen: How are you using online auditions in 2025? So what does it look different than the live audition, if it does? Well, we do our best to try to get to know them. There's, for example, when we do, we do live remote auditions. So people are singing at, like we are right now.

[56:52] Charlie Murphy: On Zoom, yep.

[56:53] David Herendeen: And so there's a sort of a welcome. I just say hello to everybody and answer questions that they might have. And then they, we do our best to see what we can see with the audition, the remote auditions. There are some times when we have recorded auditions as well. They don't, they're just never, they're never as good as remote and remote's never as good as live. But we're pretty good at gleaning the information we need to determine, because we accept people through the remote auditions and paper auditions, right? And so, so it's, so, so they, they sing the material. The hardest part, man, is the, is the, the accompaniment and that the, the, the accompaniment plays them versus they, they follow, they lead the accompaniment. That's the hardest part. So I, my advice to anybody is really, really check your tempos. I had a couple of people come in and did prepared accompaniments with, with a pianist, but the tempos were deadly wrong. And that really killed their...

[58:18] Charlie Murphy: You're talking about their tracks. I mean, their tracks themselves are wrong.

[58:22] David Herendeen: Yeah. Yeah. Even ones that are created by a pianist, they got to make sure it's right. It's, it's a pretty amazing. So, you know, but we, we try to translate sometimes I'll just say, don't do the track. Would you just do it acapella for me? Do it, do it, you know, just free of that. And I'd like to see how, so, so we can, we can tune it. We can try it. We can accommodate them because, oh, it's, it's the hardest college application there is. Oh my gosh. All the different parts of it. Yeah. No, nothing. So the psychology major, my daughter went into, applied for a psychology major and she had an essay. And of course, even then we were all anxious, but there's nothing. But she wasn't doing 30 schools.

She was doing a handful. Yeah. And, and not presenting herself, you know, presenting head, heart, and this is how I feel. And this is how I am. And opening themselves up to evaluation. And that, that, that potential of pinch, that pinch of not. And then because we talk a lot on my welcome speeches, I talk a lot about that auditions do not define you. And no matter what I say, they're not, they, they, they, I do. I want them to hear it though. Yep. You are, you are vulnerably revealing yourself. You're trying to, but in the same way that your daughter is getting rejected or accepted based on, you know, these criteria that aren't a thing. It's like, you are still only meeting the person's representative.

You're not really, it's not the wholeness of who Charlie is. If you say no, thank you to Charlie, even though it feels like it. Cause I'm like, I'm walking in there trying to reveal my human self. You said to me is very painful.

[1:00:00] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. Yeah, no, it's, it's true. And, and the good thing is like you, I was a performer and I got my teeth kicked in. I got my heart broken. I, I doubted myself and that's where the grit comes in. Right. That's where the it's in the hole is a completely happy, purposeful life man. I'm getting to, to work with young, sassy. It's the truest dream. It's a true dream. Um, and I have one kind of bonus question. I wanted to, from the beginning with the bio, you know, you mentioned a little bit in the program, some of the interaction between the opera and the musical theater. I just kind of wonder from your career, you know, you said, hey, I'm, I'm seeing myself in, you know, being more marketable, I guess, in the opera world, that that's where I'm going to be, because are there ways, ways in which that crossover, other ways, I guess, what you have found, um, lessons from opera that you've brought into the musical theater in terms of your teaching and maybe vice versa.

[1:01:06] David Herendeen: Oh, let's say, first of all, you said crossover and that's a reality. Now I must say, that opera companies to remain viable, have to become a little bit more attuned to the, to the developing a market. And they're bringing in certain types of musicals that live well within opera. The Rogers and Hammerstein, My Fair Lady, Sweeney Todd, we see it all the time. So this, which by the way, we've been doing for a long time has becoming a market reality and a very positive. So we, we know that the opera area needs to be a really a little bit more revitalized in terms of we opera sometimes cause you to, to suspend your disbelief a lot, but now the force is required. The, the market force is requiring the audience.

The audience doesn't want to, um, suspend their disbelief that much, but the, um, but also, um, the, the, the sense of power in the voice. I know we have, we're, we're miked in music theater all the time, but the fact is healthful balance of, and power in the voice, what I call tracking the resonance, which is almost a de facto thing within the operatic, um, psychology and physiology attitude. But, but really our, our music theater majors pay attention not to high and low, but really that incredible, vibrant sensation of, um, of a resonance, um, and getting it off the neck. And so this is a transfer of, uh, terminology and sensation that I think really, really, really helps. We have a whole lot of loud empty people.

[1:03:34] Charlie Murphy: For someone who doesn't know what getting off the neck means, what do you mean by getting off the neck?

[1:03:37] David Herendeen: Well, you can, you can, um, you can, you, you hear people strain all the time, you know, producing the sense, producing the sound, um, and control rather controlling the sound through what's going to, it looks like tension muscle, um, and, um, the neck tension at all. And, um, and the thinking that they have to, that's the way to be loud. And there's a thing called resonance versus amplitude. The resonance is what carries, carries it. And the resonance feels different from the force that manifests itself in the neck. And you see people chicken neck and high notes and things like this. You can even a matter of fact, sometimes we, we wince a little bit at somebody's what I call a yell belt. Um, and, and you can just see it manifest itself in the, in their neck and the note red lining the note and versus this acoustic, acoustical phenomena that happens when it's like, uh, just, just all, all cylinders are pumping and they're tracking their resonance and the spin and the speed.

It's, it's a whole, it's like flying all of a sudden. Um, and, uh, I don't know if I'm explaining it well, but it's, uh, it is a real benefit. Um, it's a career, it helps you get a career. It's fun to get to hear a little bit of that, uh, vocal nerdery too. If you're talking about attracting those vocal nerds, the sassy nerds, we've got to, you give them a little bit of bait, uh, in the nerdery world.

[1:04:05] Charlie Murphy: Um, let's, let's wrap up with a bit of, you already gave some great advice, um, to the parents in this process of letting your child do their own applications. Um, is there anything else just as a parent, you know, as you've watched all these, um, parents help their children navigate this crazy process and how difficult it is. Any advice to the parents out there who a lot of our listeners are parents going, how do I help my child through this?

[1:04:26] David Herendeen: Yeah. And, and, and that that's because, well, first of all, I say to both parents and students, each of you is suffering and anxious a different way, but equally, we love our children and we want to, we want to guide them, um, and, and, and relieve them, but we're worried about heartbreak. But I think, I think one thing you can know that your, your, your young performer is, is it doesn't define them, right? If they don't get accepted into, let's say their, um, aspirational schools, it doesn't mean that they're no good. It doesn't, it just means those aspirational schools didn't, it's like Sudoku, when we are picking a student to include, it's more like Sudoku. Um, so it doesn't define them as not, not good.

They'll find a place just so it makes their heart go pitter pat. So don't be particularly, I don't know, critical, disappointed pressure, you know, like, listen, my mother didn't have to say anything. All she had to do was look at me and go, and click her little, I don't know if you heard that, that little, uh, disappointment, click, click, tut, tut sound, tut, tut, or, or, or even that sigh, like, you know, devastate me. Watch it because, because they have the world that's pounding on them emotionally. They probably need you just to love them no matter what. Um, and, and I think that's great. And, and then I tell the students, take it easy on your parents and don't be nasty. One of the things I require when they come to live auditions, I say with today, the person that's with you, you're going to take their hands.

You're going to look them in the eye and you're going to say, thank you. And I'm going to say, and if you are reluctant to do that, then you are not invited into my program. You're not the type of person I want. You're not getting anywhere. None of us get anywhere without the help and sacrifice of others. And right now it's parents. And so I think the appreciation, um, notice should be on the, the, the young actor to their parents, but also the parents to appreciate the, the great pressure that's, uh, going with the, with the, with the students. That's, I see it all the time and, and, and, and pretty much everybody has to take a deep breath.

[1:06:55] Charlie Murphy: I love it. All right. That was wonderful advice and getting both for students and parents. And I agree with both of it. Um, if people want to hear more about OCU, um, where is the best place for them to find that information? Do you like websites, social media? What's the best place for people to check out more?

[1:07:08] David Herendeen: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, our website is really good. It's got just all the stuff, what shows we're doing, what shows we've done for the past zillion years. Um, you can, you can certainly, people can certainly email me. Um, it's, it's dherrendeen at okcu.edu. It's on the website. So you don't have to memorize anything right now. Um, we're, we're very open and we, we just, we will be happy to help. And we can connect you with students that will be happy to talk to, um, OCU and NYC as a, our, our, um, Facebook page. Um, and, and people can access that and see what our alumni do for our students. And also it gives you, we, you know, sort of happy messages about what our alumni are doing. Like right now I've got two of my, my students are up in the Finding Dolly or Casting Dolly thing.

Yeah. And, and, and it's just exciting to see this sort of opportunity. Um, and, and, and, and other things. And I don't know, it's a happy family as, as happy as any family. Every now and then people get grumpy, but you know.

[1:08:12] Charlie Murphy: I was going to say, yeah, family is not always so happy, but we're going to end on a sour note. We're ending on a positive one. Dr. David, it was great to get to chat with you. This means a lot to me. And I thank you for giving us this opportunity for my colleagues, for my university and for my students. Now, my students that have graduated and my students in the future, you're doing a service. I know you are. And I thank you for your work. I really appreciate it.

[1:08:31] David Herendeen: Thanks. You take care.

[1:08:41] Charlie Murphy: Yes, yes, yes. I really appreciated David's enthusiasm and good humor. And I'm going to try and call him Dr. H as he requested. I didn't do that much in the interview, but I'm going to try to do it here in the takeaway. Uh, and do you notice that he was on a phone for those listening and for those watching the video, you're going to see that interesting angle that he's giving you. But I think it's always a bit trickier to navigate an interview with the back and forth when you're on a phone. And I think he did a really great job. Um, a few smaller takeaways today, you know, we've talked so much about different schools and where they house their musical theater departments and what that means in terms of questions like cross-pollination, whether housing them in the school of music, the school of drama, the school of theater, whatever the school of music theater, all those different versions of it for different schools.

I think it is an interesting way in which these programs are structured differently and it can tell you something about the program for sure. And I will just say in general, as a concept, I tend to think that cross-pollination is generally a positive thing in the same way that like the scientific idea of diversity is a positive, strengthening thing for an environment. Right. But I will say like many things, maximum cross-pollination for me is not always a given good, right? There often does need to be some level of exclusion in the forming of an intimate class, especially when you're talking about which departments are involved in which classes. So I'm generally a fan of cross-pollination. I think it is almost always good for the student who's doing the pollinating to have that great exposure.

And I think generally good for the class to have those diverse and different perspectives from different departments. But I will say in some cases, in something like an acting class, the idea of having non-majors as part of that class, it might not always be a wholly positive thing for the acting majors or for the musical theater majors who maybe are high level actors. You know, it always sounds like a good idea, like, oh, isn't this cool? We're going to have all these different perspectives. But sometimes depending on the student, it can feel kind of like having the five, five person on the basketball team, which is just bringing down the level of their teammates a little bit, you know, which is not to say that Dr. H or Oklahoma City does this, but that's just a perspective in general, that when you're thinking about cross-pollination, if there was an exclusive audition to get into the school, it is not always the worst thing for some of those.

[1:10:47] Charlie Murphy: Welcome back to Mapping The College Audition. I'm your host, Charlie Murphy, and today we have a special guest, David Herendeen, the Director of Opera and Musical Theater at Oklahoma City University. David, thank you for joining us.

[1:11:17] David Herendeen: Thank you for having me, Charlie. I'm excited to be here and talk about our program.

[1:11:47] Charlie Murphy: Let's dive right in. One of the first questions I have is, how is a Bachelor of Music in Musical Theater different from a Bachelor of Fine Arts training?

[1:12:17] David Herendeen: That's a great question. The Bachelor of Music in Musical Theater tends to focus more on the musical aspects, including voice and music theory, while the BFA is more performance-oriented, emphasizing acting and dance. Both degrees have their strengths, and it really depends on what the student is looking for in their training.

[1:12:37] Charlie Murphy: That makes sense. Do you find it valuable to have non-theater majors in your classes?

[1:12:57] David Herendeen: Absolutely! Having students from different majors brings a diverse perspective to the classroom. It enriches discussions and allows for a broader understanding of the arts. Plus, it fosters collaboration, which is essential in theater.

[1:13:17] Charlie Murphy: That's a great point. Now, can students pursue a minor at OCU?

[1:13:27] David Herendeen: Yes, they can! We encourage students to explore their interests outside of their major. A minor can complement their education and provide additional skills that are valuable in the industry.

[1:13:37] Charlie Murphy: What are the theaters and classroom facilities like at Oklahoma City University?

[1:13:57] David Herendeen: Our facilities are top-notch. We have several performance spaces, including a main stage theater and smaller venues for more intimate productions. The classrooms are equipped with the latest technology, and we focus on creating a collaborative environment for our students.

[1:14:07] Charlie Murphy: That's fantastic to hear. When can students start making stylistic choices, like riffing in a song?

[1:14:17] David Herendeen: We encourage students to start exploring their artistic choices early on. It's important for them to find their unique voice and style, and we provide guidance on how to do that effectively. Riffing can be a great way to express individuality, but it's essential to balance it with the song's original intent.

[1:14:27] Charlie Murphy: Absolutely. Finding that balance is key. What advice do you have for students preparing for their college auditions?

[1:14:37] David Herendeen: My advice would be to be authentic. Choose material that resonates with you and showcases your strengths. Practice thoroughly, but also be open to feedback. It's a learning process, and each audition is an opportunity to grow.

[1:14:47] Charlie Murphy: Great advice, David. Thank you for sharing your insights today.

[1:14:57] David Herendeen: Thank you for having me, Charlie. It's been a pleasure discussing our program and the audition process.

[1:15:07] Charlie Murphy: If anyone has questions about the college audition process, feel free to reach out at mailbag@mappingthecollegeaudition.com. And if you're interested in working with MTCA for help with your individualized preparation, check us out at mtca.com.

[1:15:17] David Herendeen: Thanks again, Charlie.

[1:15:27] Charlie Murphy: Thank you, David. Until next time, everyone!