This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:09] Charlie Murphy: Hello, hello, and welcome to Mapping the College Audition, a podcast where we explore the landscape of the college theater world and try to demystify this daunting audition process.

[0:19] Charlie Murphy: I'm your host, Charlie Murphy, Director of MTCA at Musical Theater College Auditions. And today we've got a great show lined up for you.

[0:30] Charlie Murphy: Samantha Williams is on the pod today, and I am so thrilled to have a bit more of that young perspective, which I've promised you and will continue to deliver on, including some more MTCA alumni coming after the break. Stay tuned.

[0:44] Charlie Murphy: Today, Sammy and I get into learning grace and authenticity while at Pace, making connections that pay off during school, embracing your imperfections in school and out, navigating work while in school, booking work that is, the search for community as a young professional, Samantha's reaction to "See our Truths," and navigating institutions as a young BIPOC woman. We continue our discussion of navigating type and the stories Samantha chooses to tell, and she ages herself by not recognizing "MmBop," which was a little embarrassing for me. Before we get into that, just a reminder of our upcoming break, which I mentioned that's after next week. For those who listened to Molly's episode last week, that's Molly Haran from NYU.

I talked about us taking a six-week break of a kind of summer break while we ramp up some exciting fall episodes. We'll still release episodes during the break, and I'm gonna give you some new intros at the top so I can still hop on and say hi to all of you. But if you haven't heard all of our artists' episodes, this will be a good chance to kind of check out some of the star episodes from our archives from last year.

[1:49] Charlie Murphy: Speaking of last year, I was just reflecting. I'm recording this on Tony Sunday, and thinking back with such fondness to the craziness that was last year. Last year we were like attending the Tonies with a month-old baby in a hotel across the street. My parents had come up, you know, we had a documentary crew following us around. It just felt like a whirlwind and boy that feels a long time ago. But today my heart is going out to all the nominees, especially those who don't take home the prize, which is more of the nominees than not. And it's just also really exciting to see our industry picking itself back up and moving forward from where it was one year ago and certainly from where it was two years ago. So I'm just sort of sending some hope that that progression can continue and that come next year we're gonna be even in a better place in all of those ways. All right, let's get into this episode with Samantha Williams.

[2:48] Charlie Murphy: Well, we are so excited to have Samantha Williams on the pod today. Samantha has a BFA in musical theater from Pace University. She's been on Broadway in "Caroline, or Change" and "Dear Evan Hansen," also the national tour of "Dear Evan Hansen." Samantha and I have gone back and forth trying to schedule this. First, I was sick, and she was like at the podcast of Destiny. We're so excited to really have her on. One of the many reasons I'm really excited to have you on, Samantha, is you know, I really want to keep having more young perspectives on the shows. Like I love, you know, talking to Elizabeth and talking to Annalie Ashford and talking to Gavin Creel, but I do think you are much closer to the age group of many of our listeners than they are.

So I'd love to hear a little bit of perspective. And that's the same first question that I ask everyone as they come on the pod. After how you do it, I'm gonna we'll do a little how you're doing it. I'd love to hear a little bit of your perspective in terms of what this process was like for you when you were 16 and 17 years old. Because I think often we hear like, I did two schools out of a catalog, right? But you're probably now a little bit younger. I'm hoping did more than two schools. We're gonna reveal this answer in a second. But first off, how are you doing? And then let's get into a little bit of taking yourself back to 16, 17.

[4:04] Samantha Williams: Yeah, hi, thank you for having me. I'm doing great. Okay, so my college audition process. Well, I went to a performing arts high school in Houston. And they really helped me like figure out what I wanted to do and if I even wanted to do this as a career, and they showed me that it was actually like a possible route to go into.

[4:32] Charlie Murphy: Do you remember like your thinking back then in terms of like what was the consideration? I often sometimes will ask our students of like, what's your mission statement? Like, what do you want in a college process? Like, what were you considering as you looked at BAs and BFAs? Am I gonna study musical theater now? Am I gonna study musical theater at all? Like, what was that like for you as you're considering it?

[4:50] Samantha Williams: Yeah, it was really I'm a really indecisive person. So, like it was really hard and kind of stressful for me, I remember at that time. Because I was also really into science. I come from like my parents are both physicians, so like I maybe wanted to go that route as well. So it was just very like, which way do I want to go? What is the right way? And I just had to come to the conclusion that any path or any like way you choose to go is okay, and like in that moment it is right, and also just allowing myself to understand that I'm so I was so young, I'm still so young, and I have the privilege to change my mind anytime that I want to, and that was very freeing for me.

[5:37] Charlie Murphy: You mean that this wasn't a permanent choice, that you're not going if I choose now at 17, I'm locked into this path.

[5:42] Samantha Williams: Yeah, no, yeah, it was just what I wanted to do at the time, and thankfully I still like doing it, and thankfully I still I'm getting paid to do it. But like if I ever change my mind, that is okay. And coming to that conclusion was very, very good for me.

[5:58] Charlie Murphy: And what did that look like in terms of like the list itself that you came in with? So, like, and you may not remember every school on your list, but do you kind of remember like, hey, I looked at a bunch of these kind of schools, you know. Were you thinking about New York City schools specifically? Were you thinking about conservatories or liberal arts programs? Do you remember kind of some of that consideration for you?

[6:14] Samantha Williams: Yeah, I remember I felt like if I was gonna study musical theater, I wanted to be in the city because I just have always wanted to be in New York, and I come from Texas, so I needed to get out. And so Pace was really high up there on my list. I remember I did Pace, I think I did Otterbein, I did Carnegie, which I did not get into, which was no shame, no shame. We love that school though. Just like maybe two others that like aren't even like that big of schools. I just, I don't know, I was so young, so it's kind of like did whatever I could. And then I did some normal schools like Boston University and I did UCLA, and then when it came down to it, it was either like go to UCLA for school. School school or school school meaning like maybe major in theater but not study musical theater, or maybe not even major in theater. No, probably major in like biology or something. And like also do like a minor like musical theater or something like that. I don't know.

[7:34] Charlie Murphy: And when you say call Boston a normal school, because it's to confuse the people who are thinking, what's a normal school versus a theater school? Do you mean that you apply to BU not as an acting major?

[7:42] Samantha Williams: Yes, yes.

[7:42] Charlie Murphy: I see, yeah.

[7:43] Samantha Williams: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great. And so then I remember I had to choose like my choices, I narrowed them down to either Pace University for theater or UCLA. And I honestly really felt comfortable at UCLA every time I went to visit, I really loved like the idea of having a campus and just that like world. But something about like being in New York and like doing the thing was more intriguing to me. And I knew that I still had so much more to learn about acting if I wanted to really pursue it. So I decided to just go to Pace. And that's just kind of how it happened.

[8:41] Charlie Murphy: And you mentioned your parents that it so it seems like they were financially supportive of you at this point. Were they emotionally supportive? That's the wrong word, but emotionally, but I mean, were they like, you know, were they cool with like, hey, whatever you want, it's your choice? Or were they like, we really think you should go to this kind of school? How were they involved in the process for you?

[8:58] Samantha Williams: Yeah, I mean, my mom is super supportive. My dad, not so much. Just because, you know, like I'm also a first-generation American. So like going to school for musical theater is not. It's not the best ROI decision if you're trying to make a smart investment, sure.

[9:15] Charlie Murphy: Exactly.

[9:16] Samantha Williams: And yeah, but it worked out for me.

[9:19] Charlie Murphy: So you're the exception that proves the rule.

[9:22] Samantha Williams: Yes.

[9:23] Charlie Murphy: But so dad was maybe not such a fan of the idea of going to school for musical theater.

[9:27] Samantha Williams: No, not at all.

[9:28] Charlie Murphy: And is he now come around once he gets to see you on Broadway? Is he like, well, maybe it's not so bad.

[9:33] Samantha Williams: You would think, but not really.

[9:36] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[9:36] Samantha Williams: It's hard being an artist.

[9:38] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. Our very first artist guest on the show, Telly Liang, he said it was like his 13th Broadway show before someone or whatever, and I don't know what the number is, but it was very deep before his parents stopped asking him when he was gonna go to grad school. That even like after two, three, they're like, okay, but now when are you gonna get serious and get a real job?

[9:50] Samantha Williams: Yeah, that's how it is for me too. That's just how it is, unfortunately.

[9:57] Charlie Murphy: So you ended up going to Pace.

[10:00] Samantha Williams: Yes.

[10:00] Charlie Murphy: Tell me a little bit about the experience of what school was like for you. We'll get a little bit into booking work. So maybe before we get to the booking work section of it, which is awesome that it happens, but in those first couple years of what was Pace like for you?

[10:11] Samantha Williams: Yeah, it was so fun. I mean, I grew so much there, and I was so what's really cool about like going to theater school is that you get like there's a group of friends waiting for you, like all your classmates and stuff. So it wasn't too crazy of a shift, because obviously coming from Texas and then moving to New York and being alone there at like 18 can be really scary. But I felt immediately like I had support, and it was truly so fun. We had ballet at 8 a.m. every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, and just like it was always just go, go, go, go, go. And it was the best. I mean, I had a really good time at Pace.

[11:01] Charlie Murphy: So what do you feel like as an artist? What's like the biggest thing that you take away from school? Like, what's the thing that you're like, I use this the most, or I'm so grateful I had this training because it set me up for what I'm doing in shows?

[11:12] Samantha Williams: Yeah, well, what I love about Pace is just like their networking that they have. And so, like, for me, one of the biggest takeaways was like to always be just gracious and yourself, no matter who you're around, because that is what's gonna get you far, and that's gonna what that's what's gonna make people want to work with you. And I really learned that because my freshman year they brought in Janine Tesori as our artist in residence. I know, and we did a workshop of "Caroline, or Change," and I played Caroline, and it was awesome getting to work with her. Then she became sort of like a mentor for me, and then I got to do the show on Broadway as Emmy, and like I feel like Pace like planted that seed for me.

No doubt. And because of what they taught me to like always be kind, always be gracious, always be yourself, I felt like I was able to maintain relationships in the business that helped me as soon as I graduated. So yeah, I feel like just like Pace's whole thing of like being the most authentic version of you always is what really has gotten me through.

[12:40] Charlie Murphy: Let me ask you an impossible question. This is just not answerable, but we'll just for the listeners out there who are thinking like this way, because they'll hear a lot of stories about oh, I just like did a class and we worked on something, and then oh my god, I made a connection, and how that ended up being my agent that ended up being whatever, right? What part of you at that moment is conscious of oh my gosh, this is Janine Tesori, this could be a great connection for me, and I want to impress her, versus what part of you is like a student just here learning and be taking part in the class? I guess how do you fight those demons of I don't want to like show off? But I do want to book from this person, I do want to impress this person. How did you navigate that yourself? Obviously, you did it well.

[13:19] Samantha Williams: Thank you. I didn't really know who she was, to be honest.

[13:25] Charlie Murphy: It helps.

[13:26] Samantha Williams: It really helps. I don't know who most people are, which really helps me. But also like that aside, like, I don't know, like everyone is just a person. And like I also always think like, and this might be controversial, but like when you're in school, you're in school, and like you're allowed to mess up, you're allowed to be messy, and when you're out of school, you're also allowed to mess up and you're allowed to be messy. And that's why we do this. That's what acting is. And the minute you try to be perfect, it doesn't work. So I think just like reminding myself to always like just allow myself to be what I am in that moment.

[14:16] Samantha Williams: Um, but honestly, at that point, like I didn't know who she was, and I was nervous, obviously, because like this is someone from the outside world coming into our class.

[14:26] But when you're in the bubble of like school, everything kind of feels like school always.

[14:33] So, like to me, she was like a teacher that was brought in, but yeah.

[14:37] You're just there to learn.

[14:38] I love that.

[14:39] Well, it's so funny, you said school feels like school.

[14:41] So something I often ask of artists who went to New York City schools, is like, how do you avoid the temptation of New York City and auditioning and the real world right there and the business right there, and potentially they can come see your shows and you know, just what that feeling is of already being connected.

[14:57] But to you, it wasn't just a temptation.

[14:58] If I'm correct, tell me if this is wrong.

[15:00] But you booked your Evan Hansen while still in school, is that true?

[15:03] Yeah.

[15:04] So tell me about that.

[15:05] What was it like to be now in school and trying to navigate do I jump?

[15:09] We just just uh this is now maybe two weeks ago, three weeks ago as this episode's being released.

[15:13] Had an uh an MTCA student who was at CCM, a freshman at CCM, who just booked the national tour, also of Dear Evan Hansen, if you can believe it.

[15:19] Right, and making that same decision of go, do I leave school?

[15:21] Do I take you know that stuff is is hard.

[15:23] Yeah, talk to me a little bit about what that experience was for you.

[15:26] Um as you were auditioning and and booking.

[15:28] Yeah, so I had my the head of my program, a lot of or a lot of my teachers invited like industry professionals and just like like casting ages and stuff to our workshop of Carolina Change without telling me, thank God, because I didn't I was just doing it.

[15:49] And from that, they would send me, I got like some audition appointments and stuff, and um I started auditioning for Alana Beck.

[15:59] So just for the sake this is great, but just for the sake of our our listener, maybe who don't know the business as much.

[16:04] What does that mean?

[16:04] So in terms of talk me through some of the mechanics of so some humans, and you can tell me who those humans are some, but um have come to see you in a show.

[16:13] What does it mean now they're sending you out on appointments?

[16:15] How does that work?

[16:15] Is are we doing managers, casting directors who are reaching out for you?

[16:18] How is it actually happening in terms of you getting in those rooms?

[16:21] Yeah, so it was mainly casting directors.

[16:23] I think a few people from Tara Rubin's office were there.

[16:26] I think it they must have been because they're the ones who called me in for Evan Hansen.

[16:32] Um and basically they came to see the show and then they would email uh they got my information from my program head, and they would email me and uh see if I would be interested in auditioning for certain things in the business, and um give me appointments so that I like it wasn't like I was waiting in line or anything like that.

[16:57] I love that.

[16:57] So, but so that's the casting director doing it.

[16:59] So at this point, you don't have an agent manager sending you out on stuff.

[17:02] They're just directly to the cast director.

[17:03] Okay, great.

[17:04] Okay, so then now you get to the point of booking, or maybe before.

[17:08] When does that conversation go of oh my gosh, maybe do I need an agent?

[17:12] Do I need a manager?

[17:13] How how how's this gonna happen?

[17:14] Because you're still 21 at this point, you're still a young in school person.

[17:18] Yeah, I was like, I think I was like 19 actually.

[17:21] 19, unbelievable.

[17:22] 19 or 20 or something like that.

[17:23] Okay, great.

[17:24] Crazy like that.

[17:25] So you can't even drink when you hear you are booking Broadway shows.

[17:29] I know.

[17:29] My 21st birthday was I was in Dear Evan Hansen, and I remember I was like, okay, cool.

[17:36] Nice.

[17:36] Wild.

[17:37] Yeah.

[17:38] Um, but so basically what happened was I was going in for Evan Hansen for like, I think I had like 10 auditions, like something crazy.

[17:48] And um I ended up booking the new Toronto production that they were doing in Canada of Evan Hansen.

[18:01] And I booked the understudy for Zoe and Alana.

[18:04] And the head of my program was like, I don't think you should leave school to be in Canada to do this.

[18:14] And I was like, Well, I don't know, like, what if I never get a chance?

[18:17] You know, I was young, whatever.

[18:20] Um, but she knew she was like, no.

[18:23] And I and so then she was like, let me put you in contact with an agent um from Buckwald.

[18:31] And she like sent her some materials of mine, they signed me, and then we got to working on the contract, and she and the agent was also like, you know what, like, I don't think you should leave school for this.

[18:43] So I decided to stay and not leave school.

[18:46] And then literally, like two weeks later, they called me, and uh, I remember Terry Rubin's office called me, and they were like, hey, like we saw that like you know, you didn't accept it.

[18:58] Was it because it was an understudy, or was it because like you didn't want to leave school?

[19:01] And I was like, honestly, like I didn't want to leave New York to go to Canada to do that.

[19:07] It had nothing to do with it being an understudy or anything like that.

[19:10] So then I was offered the vacation understudy um on Broadway, literally the next week.

[19:17] Just bumping it up.

[19:18] They're getting a little more excitement for you.

[19:20] Okay.

[19:20] Yeah, so it was a vacation understudy for like a week and a half, and what they do, and now that the show's gonna close, I can just say, like, what they do at Evan Hansen is like a lot of the times because we're so young, though, like being a vacation under the understudy is like a test trial to see, um, especially if they're gonna replace someone or something.

[19:41] So I was the vacation understudy for Alana, or for somebody who was an understudy for Alana.

[19:47] Um I learned all of Alana's track.

[19:53] I was on Broadway and like couldn't tell anyone.

[19:55] It was like really weird.

[19:57] And yeah, and um, I was still doing school at the same time, and it was fine because like I wasn't going on, I was just there.

[20:05] Uh-huh.

[20:05] And it was only for like a week and a half or something.

[20:08] And then at the end of that week and a half, I went into a room with like Michael Grife and like all the producers, and did all of Alana's material the way that I learned it from the vacation understudy process.

[20:25] And literally, like a few days after, they were like, Okay, you're Alana Beck on Broadway.

[20:31] Unbelievable.

[20:32] And so I went from literally being told, being asked if I wanted to do the understudy in Canada to actually being the role on Broadway in a matter of like three weeks.

[20:45] We sometimes talk about the power of no.

[20:47] Good thing you said no to that first one.

[20:48] You know, often it's like we want to say, like, don't be picky, take the job.

[20:51] But then the flip side of that, of course, is in this case your picking this gave you got you an even better job.

[20:56] Yeah, yeah.

[20:57] But now you must be now navigating this with school.

[20:59] So obviously, they let you be the vacation understudy.

[21:01] They had the conversation of is it worth it to leave school?

[21:04] How does it because you know each school works differently in terms of some will say, sorry, you if you miss classes, you're gonna fail.

[21:09] And so you can take time off.

[21:11] But how did that work in terms of um pace being able to say, Yeah, we'll we'll let you miss this class as an excused absence, and you know, how how you're probably getting a little behind on class time.

[21:18] How does that working now as this is happening?

[21:20] Oh yeah, I mean, like they're putting a bunch of like they're asking a bunch of like young 20-somethings to study theater in New York City, like they know that like at our age, we're very marketable, like this is going to happen.

[21:39] So they were so so encouraging and helpful, and like I was never really behind because like me being at rehearsal for this show counted for something, you know what I mean?

[21:54] Um, and they were really, really nice and and helpful, like everyone was super supportive, and um the conversation of whether it's worth leaving school was not so much like they wanted me to like stay in the program for their own selves, it was mainly for my own, like they knew that I something bigger was waiting for me, and yeah, I I think they're they did a really good job at like they do a really good job at helping students that are working in the business graduate on time, and also like they work with you.

[22:30] It's not like they leave you out to dry, especially like they're the ones who kind of like brought them into my world.

[22:37] Like you asked me to do this, and I did it, and I did good.

[22:39] I booked it.

[22:40] Exactly.

[22:40] So, you know.

[22:41] But then how how does that work?

[22:43] So then you're you're doing it on Broadway and you're about to do the tour.

[22:45] I'm not sure the exact timing of it.

[22:47] How does it then work with um graduating school?

[22:50] So they're just allowing that to be credit hours, or then do you come back to school at some point?

[22:53] How does that work in terms of you?

[22:55] You have a BFA, at least I said it in the bio.

[22:57] I hope it's true.

[22:58] It is true.

[22:59] So basically, my so this happened my junior year, and in the contract, it said you have to be on Broadway for six months, and then you have to do the tour for 10 months.

[23:10] Uh-huh.

[23:11] Um, because they already had a pre-planned switcheroo where they were bringing some of the tour people to Broadway.

[23:18] I didn't really want to go on tour because I just like I don't know, I I like to be in New York and like to my Broadway.

[23:27] It was like it's tough to go.

[23:29] Like, I just did the thing and now I gotta go do the thing somewhere else.

[23:31] Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[23:32] So basically, I still accepted the contract because like I'm you know, there's always ways out of it.

[23:42] So I accepted it, and then um I was doing so it was it happened the end of my junior year, um second semester junior year, so that's when I was doing Broadway through the summer, and then in the fall would be the uh beginning of my senior year, and that's when I was supposed to go on tour.

[24:02] Um, and so I took like a leave of absence from school for like the first semester of my senior year, and then during that leave of absence, I booked Carolina Change, even though I was on tour for two months.

[24:19] And so I left tour, came back to the city, started getting ready for Carolina Change, and while I was doing that, I was like talking with my advisors about like figuring everything out so that I could finish, you know?

[24:35] And then the pandemic happened, so then I went home.

[24:41] I went home and to Texas, and my mom obviously was like, well, open your laptop.

[24:48] Time to get to Zoom.

[24:51] Yeah.

[24:51] So I finished school with my class on time.

[24:55] And then I came back and then did Caroline.

[24:58] So it kind of worked out.

[25:01] Don't you do that?

[25:03] For those not looking at the video, Samantha put her hand over her heart going, I'm kind of embarrassed the pandemic was good for me.

[25:08] I know.

[25:08] Like, ah, yeah, obviously I was also, you know, going through it.

[25:12] But it it helped in the sense that I got to graduate on time and because otherwise it might have been tricky for you to finish with your scene.

[25:20] You might have had to take a semester off and then come back for a semester.

[25:23] You might not have been able to make it work if you're coming back to Carolina Change.

[25:28] Yeah, I definitely was able to like I made it work.

[25:33] It worked out for me.

[25:35] Uh and I I don't think it would have been as easy had I have been still working in the city and stuff.

[25:42] Cause then you're like, well, what's the point?

[25:44] I'm already doing what I would get a BFA for, you know what I mean?

[25:48] But it was really important to my family that I had a degree.

[25:51] So I was able to get that.

[25:52] And yeah.

[25:55] Um I'm gonna ask you another impossible question, which is just looking back, is there anything that you feel like you almost regret about what is missed of like a normal college experience?

[26:07] Like this is something so cool.

[26:08] I mean, you're such a mature young adult, and you're still very young, of course, in the in the grand scheme of things.

[26:13] But like, is there something about like, hey, what if I'd gone to US UCLA and gone to frat parties and I don't know what people do in normal.

[26:19] I went to BFA too, so I don't know, you know.

[26:21] But like, but like is there some part of you that like that goes, you know, being pulled, especially so quickly into the business and then having to miss school, even just with my other VFA classmates who also were maybe doing some of this stuff.

[26:31] You know, so I guess yeah, what what does it feel in terms of what do you wonder about or what what wrankles at night as you go?

[26:36] I I kind of miss this experience.

[26:38] Yeah, I definitely am not like I don't regret anything because I am so grateful for the position I'm in right now.

[26:50] But I definitely like would have loved to have a campus experience and I would have loved to go to frat parties and I would have loved to do like intramural sports and stuff like that.

[27:02] Like that's definitely like I don't know.

[27:05] I've I always wanted that, and I made the decision to go with something that would fast track me by living in New York, you know what I mean?

[27:16] But um there's definitely a part of me that's like, damn, like I really missed that.

[27:22] And then also leaving school early as well.

[27:25] Yeah.

[27:25] Um I missed like it, like also like nobody talks about this, but like it was really lonely to like be on Broadway and like move off of like I still was living in the dorms uh in Moss like by my school, and like to like move into an apartment by myself and like be on the other side of Manhattan while all my classmates were in school together, like that was really hard.

[27:52] Yeah, and it's like a dumb thing to complain about to some people, but like when you're in it, like people understand, you know, like it's hard to be away from everyone.

[28:01] But um, yeah, I I mean, I wouldn't say regret, I don't regret anything, but I do now that I'm older, I like definitely understand the value of being on like a college campus.

[28:14] Like all my friends who went to UMish, like their college experiences are just so different from football games and yeah, yeah.

[28:23] Samantha Williams: And like I just noticed something about like my friends who went there, they're just a lot more like open to like other experiences that aren't just musical theater because they come from a world where like musical theater is just one of the majors in like a giant university, you know what I mean? So um I think it just depends on what somebody wants at that time. But yeah, I think I would have I'm lucky I think I would have really enjoyed that, but I'm happy I chose what I didn't. Yeah, I do feel like it's something so many adults, musical theater or not, are searching for the community they found in college. And so in some ways, like it's like the community experience, you know, we have it as artists as we do shows.

You have this amazing, oh my god, my family, my show family. Yeah, but it lives for however long, you know, in Broadway, maybe it's a couple years, but often it's a couple weeks, a couple months of a time of a period of rehearsals and shows, and you're so incredibly close and then you go away, right? It's like that that sense of community that most people really only have in their life for those four years of college where they go, these are my frat brothers. I don't know why but frats of that's not about that. Like, like what it is to be in this dorm, and then on this like sad boxes alone in these apartments, and often people get almost a whole year after graduating to deal with that, but you had to deal with that like while in Broadway while doing the like you didn't get to process that at all because now all of a sudden you're thrust into having to perform, perform, perform.

[29:52] Samantha Williams: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, and also like what you said, I like in college, I didn't get that that like super campus feeling. But for start, like as soon as like I started Evan Hansen, I made a bunch of friends on there, and we were all young people coming up together, kind of having similar experiences. And like you said, like each cast really does become like a family if you're lucky. And um I feel like with my shows, I've had I've gotten to have like that college experience. Like, even now, I'm here at the Goodman in Chicago, and like it feels like I'm at summer camp because I have me in this apartment, and like we all my cast lives here, and we all go to work together, and then we hang out after work. It's like it does get better than this. I feel like I'm getting my college experience right now.

[30:52] Charlie Murphy: Totally. And for those not watching the video, uh, we were talking when Samantha first uh signed on. She's in this like gorgeous palatial uh actor housing. It's like this like she looks like she's in a celebrity, you know, video of like, yeah, cool, I got my guitar stand in the back and I have this lounging couch and all this. It's amazing. Um okay, so I want to, but before we I want to talk a lot about uh Caroline or Change for sure. We'll get into that on the second half of the show. But uh I want to talk a little bit about CR Truths. Um Pace. And I of course I want to do this delicately, since of course everyone has their own perspective, and I really don't want to kind of put you on the spot and feel like we should throw anyone under the bus, right?

We hate the bus, as I do. Um, I'd love to start with for those who have watched the videos. Uh do you feel like d personally, do you feel like they're a fair and accurate accurate representation of Pace during your tenure there and or now, based on what you know now? I'm not sure of the exact timing of when they came out and where you were in school at that moment.

[31:47] Samantha Williams: Yeah, I I feel like most of those videos came out during the pandemic. So I was home and I was a senior in college. Um and honestly, like everyone's experience is so different and still so valid. So I yeah, I I think that um it takes a lot of um courage to uh get on a video and talk about your experience so candidly, especially in this business, and especially being young and feeling like if you say one thing on the internet, it'll last forever. You know what I mean? And um I think uh there are definitely uh aspects to it that I didn't necessarily experience, but I don't want to invalidate anyone's experience. And I think that if they felt strongly enough to talk about it online like that, it had to have been true. And um, yeah.

[32:56] Charlie Murphy: And what about if, you know, just for our parents and students who maybe haven't watched the video, so maybe not know what we're talking about even. Is this something would you recommend, hey, go watch all the videos, go watch one video? You know, I think it's certainly some question we got a lot in those years after they were released of like, uh, should I watch them all? Is this is this what this program is like? Is this what all programs are like to some extent, right? Right. There was a lot of those kinds of questions. So what would you recommend, either people for students who are looking at Pace or who aren't specifically looking at Pace? Would would you recommend parents and students do go and watch them themselves?

[33:26] Samantha Williams: Yeah, I mean, yeah, if I'm gonna be completely candid. It I feel like Pace right now is in a like a rebuilding moment of finding a new program head and finding new teachers and stuff. Like I had when I was there, I had a great time, and we had so many like connections and networking, and it was really awesome. But like right now, I feel like they're restarting from scratch, which is great, and I think really important for them and for alum who experienced um things there at in the past. So I think it's really great that they're doing that. And it's certainly not unique. I mean, there's not the only program that you know had some shakeup during the past two years. I mean, I think some of it specifically to some of these issues that are brought up in those videos, but but some of it also just due to aging faculty, and they use this moment to go, let's let's evaluate our curriculum.

And while we're doing that, what are we changing? I mean, so there are a lot of programs that a lot of new programs heads at really big schools. I mean, you know, it happens always, but especially the past couple years has been a big turnover.

[34:32] Samantha Williams: Yeah, I think, yeah, and also like a lot of what made Pace so great is the networking and the connections that you get going there, and I feel like right now they're still kind of rebuilding those networks and those connections and and finding new ones. And I would just give it like maybe a year or two, if I'm being honest. I don't know if we should keep this in there. Um Anthony Williams bashes Pace. It's not what I mean to do. That's the headline that'll come out of this podcast. Is yeah, um, what if I were to broaden this question a little bit? We didn't talk about it, of course, when I the first question I asked you was just about your mission statement. But as you're kind of looking at a scholastic experience, especially being a young BIPOC student, was that a consideration for you as you were looking at schools of like where would they have the resources and/or desire to speak toward your identity specifically? Was that something you were looking at as you evaluated schools?

[35:31] Samantha Williams: Honestly, no, because I was so young, I didn't understand the importance of all that yet. Now I think kids are a lot more woke and are looking at that kind of stuff, which they should be because I only had like two teachers of color, my entire two black teachers, my entire four years there, which is completely unacceptable. And um the curriculum wasn't necessarily catered toward me. Um so I feel like now that that's a really I wish I I knew more about that and cared at the time, but I didn't. So like I I feel like now with what's going on in our world and and how um sensitive and aware we've all become over post-pandemic, I think like it's really important for kids to look at that, especially when they're looking at schools.

[36:32] Charlie Murphy: What about now? So using the wisdom of your still very young mid-20s self or whatever, but especially as you see schools and institutions speaking a lot of value statements into the world, right? A lot of promises to do better, and there have, of course, been some real drastic changes. Some schools have made, some have spoken about changes that are coming. Yeah. How are you evaluating these words and actions, right? Like, uh, this is a question I ask every school for the first 20 episodes of the podcast. I ask, like, what are you doing? And and I'll tell you, I get a lot of platitudes back. I think I get a lot of like just truthly, I feel like I'm meeting the school's bureaucratic team as opposed to these.

Yeah. In that moment they go, ah, all right. Um I've got this question. I've prepared my statement. And yes, yes. I wanna, you know, without sort of being like, here's my thoughts on it. It was what I think. But but to for the the students who are hearing that, I do feel for them because I go, I'm not sure I'd know how to evaluate what this person said versus this person and and what does it all mean. So I guess what would you be looking at as you're going, this feels like it's real action, and these are words that make sense to me, or these are words that I would say, it's not not as exciting to me.

[37:35] Samantha Williams: Yeah, I mean, I would just really be aware of faculty and um who is actually on their team because I don't like if it's just a bunch of white people telling you that they're gonna try their best not to be racist, it's not gonna it's not really gonna try. No, I'm really gonna try to do that. Yeah, yeah. And it's also just like, you know, like you as a student, you want a real a well-rounded experience. And the only way you're gonna get that is if you go if if the schools provide a well-rounded faculty and well-rounded teachers and and diversity, like it's just so important. So I think, you know, receiving I even now like I receive that within companies that I work for and and you know, all of that stuff.

There's a bunch of stuff like that. And honestly, like Caroline and this show are like have done such a great job at um not only speaking it, but also like putting it into action. Like here we have a diversity inclusions, um uh like somebody like on the team that works for DEI and she's in every rehearsal and she's always talking to us and she always has something to say about like you know, this is a new musical, so we're we're we're like figuring out family dynamics, we're in a biracial family, like there's a lot going on, and like we have somebody there facilitating those conversations, and like it's an actual thing. So I feel like a lot of colleges and institutions are they have all this stuff on paper, but they don't really like put it to action, and I think that's to bring it back.

I think that's one of the big issues. That's one of the big things that uh CR Truths was talking about is like you say all this stuff, but like we're not seeing it, right? You know, so I just think that uh for young students now and for parents too, looking into colleges, like just be very aware and do your research on what they have done and and what's on the horizon for them in in terms of diversity and inclusion.

[39:50] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, I love it. Okay, we will take a short break. We'll get into some lighter topics moving forward, I promise. Um on the back end, we'll talk a little bit about Caroline or Change, and we'll play a little bit of a game also with Samantha. We gotta play our games.

[40:03] Samantha Williams: Um we're back in a flash.

[40:08] Charlie Murphy: All right, we are back with Samantha Williams. We've done the first half of the pod, so now I'm gonna call her Sammy. Um yes. Let's talk a little bit about you. You mentioned that you booked Caroline or Change pre-pandemic.

[40:20] Samantha Williams: Yeah.

[40:20] Charlie Murphy: And then what did you even start rehearsing it? And then it went down, or you were about to start. You were in rehearsal.

[40:25] Samantha Williams: Yeah.

[40:26] Charlie Murphy: So what was the experience? I guess for you personally first. What was the experience of like sitting on, oh my gosh, I have this exciting role in a new Broadway show, or at least a remount of a Broadway show.

[40:35] Samantha Williams: Then coming back to it and will it come back, I just love to hear a little bit about that for you.

[40:39] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[40:40] Samantha Williams: So yeah, we were at we were supposed to have our first invited dress and then everything shut down. Um but

[40:52] Samantha Williams: Yeah. Yeah. And I remember when I like got the news and I got it. It was like this whole thing, and I was so happy and it just like such a full circle moment getting to do the show again and after having it be like my first show in New York when I was a freshman in college and and um And for those who aren't tracking this is Janine DeSori who who was became a majority and now you get to you know.

[41:12] Samantha Williams: Yeah, and I remember the audition process was so tedious. It was only three auditions, but they were lots of months apart, so um, but uh it was yeah, I I was so excited and um the rehearsal process was awesome. I was getting to work with like Chip Zion and like all these and Sharon D. Clark and Casey and all these people, and they became my like family and my stage moms, and it was awesome. And then the pandemic happened and I was so bummed out, but I I I knew that this show was going to happen. I just had feeling so I just took the time at home to reevaluate.

[41:57] Samantha Williams: Mm-hmm. And I came back and the second time around was like a million times better than the first time around.

[42:06] Charlie Murphy: So you did a whole new rehearsal process the second time around.

[42:10] Samantha Williams: Uh yeah, sort of. We had like about I think three weeks of rehearsal.

[42:13] Samantha Williams: So basically, and it was like there was just this level of ownership to the work that uh within all with within everyone that was. Because you've been stewing on it for two years. It's just been marinating or whatever.

[42:28] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. Did the show make any?

[42:30] Samantha Williams: Yeah, go ahead.

[42:31] Charlie Murphy: Did the show make any changes in terms of like, especially like now in I think a lot of shows as they're coming back now in the wake of some social movements that happened during the pandemic, were like, how can we be relevant to this?

[42:42] Samantha Williams: And now you're doing a show that is very specific to I guess a time period, but to some of these movements. Was that a conversation in the room of like, are we adjusting anything? Or are we, you know, in terms of, or just now look at all these things that we're saying, which are pretty relevant right now? How was that addressed in the room?

[42:56] Samantha Williams: Yeah, it was mainly like look at all these things that are so relevant, um, especially with the whole statues and honestly just everything. So there was just like I don't know, there was like this fire that was underneath everyone that just felt like like we really understood that we were doing something so important to like the world, like making art that like really like means something in the moment. So yeah, it was it was crazy. It was awesome. And I will say, very important to me personally. I did see the show, you were fantastic in it. And it was the first date that my partner and I went on after um our boy baby was born. So like we did the ponies, but the Tonies wasn't really like a thing because the Tonies was like she was five weeks old and we were so stressed and we were breastfeeding in the middle of the Tonies, but this was like a full date.

We like went to dinner, saw a show, did a full and it was a great date. We it was very great show, it was a great experience. Thank you. Yeah, it was awesome. I I loved like every second of it, and the creative team was so nice, and just like I don't know, it was like a dream experience. It was awesome.

[44:09] Charlie Murphy: Okay, I'm gonna ask you more tough questions. Some lighter than before, but still tough. I would love to talk about type a little bit because I've been trying to kind of weave a little mini series of conversations about type with some of our different artists, and we've had a number of different kinds of people talk about different types of people, if I dare say it. Talk about type. Um, so our listeners will have heard me say, and we're just gonna assume I'm right about this because it's my podcast and I'm an expert on the college process, so I say, but that in the college process, type is something that should almost be completely ignored in favor of your authentic self and individuality. That's how the vast majorities of institutions approach it from a non-commercial anarchistic perspective.

They're not like casting their classes, right? So, but that said, in the commercial business, I do think it's a trickier thing, it's more of a conversation in that there is this moment of the old world and the new, maybe pulling in different directions, and maybe I'm absolutely so I just love to have like what was your experience with type from school and into the professional world. Is it something you consider on a daily basis? Did you consider it a lot at a certain point? How does it factor into your your thinking?

[45:08] Samantha Williams: Yeah, um, yeah, I don't I try not to even consider it to be honest. I know, like I know things that don't resonate with me. Um so I guess, and and I know I know what I don't like to do, but I I don't know, I just feel like there's definitely the type of like young person, and like there's the black girl type, and like all these boxes that you know we have created because theater, you know, like there's like the stereotypes and like things that like are what make theater, honestly, and like how it started, and but I feel like now I don't know, it's just like nothing I've I've I've never really not to focus on that because I feel like it limits you, and there are stories that I don't resonate with, and there are characters that I don't resonate with, but I I wouldn't say that I will never be able to. I just don't right now.

[46:22] Charlie Murphy: So totally and do you consider so I love that thinking of it in terms of what stories do I want to tell, what stories do I want to represent? Do you consider that you know, from a um and it seems like maybe the answer is no from a more commercial perspective, but do you consider like, hey, I've just played this in Dear Evan Hansen, and now I've done this in Caroline or Change. Do you consider like, hey, I want to kind of tell other kinds of stories, or it seems like I've been sorting similar similar stories, or even it could be about kinds of shows, like as you're considering your career and you're talking with representation, how do you consider that kind of thing?

[46:50] Samantha Williams: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, I guess in that sense the type that I play right now is is like teenager, like young person, but I feel like that just has more to do with that. I am young, you know.

[47:04] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, exactly. And like yeah, so that but but also no, I mean you're you're even but you're also you are young for your age. I mean, the experience of you know, when I saw you come across, I was like, Is it wasn't she 17? Like I did have that feeling of like you playing the part I thought you put in high school, not. I thought you were not right. Like you do come off on stage. Really young, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[47:22] Samantha Williams: So I guess in that sense, like definitely. Um in the sense of like just stories and and things like especially with my managers and agents, like of what we decide to do next and stuff like that. I feel like you know, in terms of like like theater or film, I try to go into film more and like TV film and like dabble in that more.

[47:49] Samantha Williams: And in that sense, I've just kind of been throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks.

[47:55] Charlie Murphy: That's right.

[47:55] Samantha Williams: Um, but in theater, I feel like I am at a place where I can be a lot more selective. And I I've been trying to just do things that are good because I find that that is very hard to find.

[48:10] Samantha Williams: So uh it's it's main mainly just like is the material even good? And then from then from there, I I keep looking at it. But yeah.

[48:21] Charlie Murphy: I I love that. Well, and I I do think that is really smart to certainly think about is this good material? I mean, it it's kind of maybe old world and old school thinking, but sometimes, you know, g from that young from being seen as as young, there is an instinct, and maybe it's something will happen to you once you're no longer being cast in these young parts, but there's an instinct to go, but now how do I get the business to see take me seriously? Or how do I get the business to see me as I'm I'm deeper than just the young ingenue, I'm deeper than just the sweet. Yes, I play that, but also, you know, it's like are is that something that at some point you may consciously consider?

[48:53] Samantha Williams: Yeah, I think, yeah. I mean, I think if something is well, in my opinion, I think if something is well written, you'll be seen as deeper than the young ingenue by doing it. You know what I mean?

[49:07] Charlie Murphy: That's right.

[49:08] Samantha Williams: Uh I feel like that was how it was for Caroline. And I also feel like, especially for the show I'm doing right now, like it is like I am playing a teenager, but it's so well written and so good that like you can't help but take it serious.

[49:24] Samantha Williams: So I think if the story resonates is is well written enough and resonates with enough people, I think you're fine in that sense.

[49:31] Charlie Murphy: Alright, not to keep hammering on you as a young person. All these questions are about youth.

[49:34] Samantha Williams: That's okay.

[49:36] Charlie Murphy: It's unbelievable. I'm sorry, maybe but can I ask, like, when you think about older actors in those families, even you kind of said this person's more of my stage mom, or they're sort of like these elders that are in your cast. I'd love to ask, what do you wish that older actors understood that you know you're right about? So, like, if you've experienced any clashes between old hands and young whippersnappers, what are you like? My generation is right. The people that I was saying with your eminent who were having the same experience, when we sit around and we're having a couple, you know, drinks or whatever, we go, I know I'm right, and they could learn from me about this.

[50:10] Samantha Williams: Um, that's a good that's a really good question. Cause I feel like I learned so much in that, but well, I'm gonna ask you that question too. I'm just giving you this one first.

[50:25] Samantha Williams: I think um, oh okay, I I'd say that uh writing like I feel like my generation is learning that like especially in theater, like you don't have to say yes to everything. And I feel like back then there was definitely more of a pressure to like go to auditions where the show was bad and you actually didn't want to do it, and like now, like even though, like, like, you know, it is a privilege to do that, obviously, my class or my friends who are are working and doing the thing as well, like they understand that like there are certain things they can pass on, and I feel like the older generation didn't really get that as much.

[51:16] Charlie Murphy: So I'd say that.

[51:18] Samantha Williams: That is a really smart and I've seen that in many different manifestations. So certainly the business side of things in terms of like what you know, doing roles or saying I'm not available, or it's you know, some of the things that people go, you can't say that, look the part to someone else, or whatever, you know. But also just that iterates out into the rehearsal, I think sometimes where it's like even questioning the directors of like, you know, I think old people might say, like, hey, young whippersnipper, just try it before you like resist the note, you know, sort of the the negative side of it. But but you sometimes see some of that, like the confidence of your generation. There's more, you know, which yeah, people they're like, I I washed that out of myself. Whatever from the sense of self. I said, Oh, yes, sir, I'll totally do that.

[51:57] Samantha Williams: Exactly.

[51:57] Charlie Murphy: Okay, well, give me the flip side then. What's something that you feel like you've really learned from Google?

[52:01] Samantha Williams: Oh god, I've learned so much from them.

[52:03] Charlie Murphy: Give me seven.

[52:04] Samantha Williams: Oh my god. Uh I learned so much from them. I feel like I can honestly go person by person. I feel like like, okay, so like Casey Levy taught me that like you can have a family and still do this, and you can also like it doesn't have to be your entire world.

[52:35] Samantha Williams: Um and she really taught me how like what it looks like to be a leading lady and like just the things that you do that like you don't learn unless somebody tells you like the the opening night notes and and just like how to treat your dresser and and just certain things like that, like she taught me so much about that.

[52:56] Samantha Williams: I feel like Chip Zion taught me how important humor is, and also he taught me that like the artist struggle is never over, even when you're like 75, like you're still gonna like wonder if this is even what you should be doing, even though you've made a whole like crazy career.

[53:22] Charlie Murphy: He's still thinking about going to grad school, is what you're saying.

[53:24] Samantha Williams: So his parents are still saying, Yeah, Chip, why are you gonna get a real job? I remember like I knew like it's just so crazy to me. Like, he's Chip Zion, but like he is so like he's such like just a person, and like he's truly like became one of my best friends, like, which is so crazy.

[53:43] Samantha Williams: It just shows that like there isn't always a gap if you're just like a good person. So um, yeah, he just taught me that like then the work never stops.

[53:53] Samantha Williams: Like you're always gonna be like, there's always gonna be doubt, but like you just gotta like keep going if you love it enough.

[54:00] Charlie Murphy: And I love it.

[54:01] Samantha Williams: That's enough. You can't do more than less than a lot of things.

[54:05] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, they're gonna I'm gonna send them this clip and they're gonna cry.

[54:08] Samantha Williams: But all right, well, then you can do some more, we won't put it on the pod.

[54:11] Charlie Murphy: We'll afterward, we'll do some like PS post notes where you can say that. But yeah, I learned a lot from those people.

[54:16] Charlie Murphy: Okay, this is gonna lead us into our game. I need you to explain to me the Caroline or Change title.

[54:23] Samantha Williams: So, like, is it a Sophie's choice between herself and the change? Or is it a choice between like the social change the world needs or her humanity? Right? I'm like, uh, we spend maybe 45 minutes at dinner trying to be like, what does the title Caroline or Change?

[54:38] Samantha Williams: Yeah. So actually, like, I have the answer.

[54:42] Samantha Williams: So basically Oh my god, I want it. Give it to me.

[54:44] Samantha Williams: I remember Janine told me this one time. She was like, it's like, so like you know, the the show is either called Caroline or it's called Change. It's like one of those titles.

[54:56] Samantha Williams: Um, like like the goat or who is so good. Exactly. That's two different options. Three different options. That's what that's what the title is.

[55:07] Samantha Williams: Um in a different world, in a in a different like iteration, the show could also be called Caroline or Emmy.

[55:14] Samantha Williams: Like, so like the change is Emmy's story and Emmy's like thing that she's bringing on. And and I think, and so that is what it is.

[55:23] Samantha Williams: Um I love it.

[55:26] Charlie Murphy: That's a great.

[55:27] Samantha Williams: I didn't know that you'd have an answer, and that's a great answer. It makes so much sense.

[55:31] Charlie Murphy: It's Caroline is the show, or love her.

[55:34] Samantha Williams: Um, okay, we've now beautifully seguayed into our game.

[55:38] Charlie Murphy: So, as you may know, we play a unique game with each of our artists who come on the pod. This is gonna be a very simple trivia game based on your two Broadway shows, and this one is called Caroline or Hansen.

[55:50] Samantha Williams: Okay, Caroline or Hansen.

[55:52] Charlie Murphy: I'm gonna give you a fun fact or a quote or a song lyric. This is gonna be difficult. All of our games are hard. I'm just the sweat that's pouring from your face right now is accurate, right? You have to tell me if it's either Caroline, Hansen, or neither.

[56:04] Charlie Murphy: That's what the three options are. It could be from Caroline, Hansen, and you're just putting it in the appropriate group. Makes sense?

[56:09] Samantha Williams: Okay.

[56:09] Charlie Murphy: Do you feel ready to play this game? The stakes could not be higher.

[56:13] Samantha Williams: Here we go. This is the warm up round, just so that we feel like we're in the right hallmark, right?

[56:17] Charlie Murphy: So let's say if I were to say washing machine.

[56:19] Samantha Williams: Caroline.

[56:20] Charlie Murphy: Sure.

[56:20] Samantha Williams: Arm cast.

[56:21] Charlie Murphy: Hansen.

[56:23] Samantha Williams: Dishwasher.

[56:25] Charlie Murphy: Oh.

[56:28] Samantha Williams: Hansen.

[56:29] Charlie Murphy: I say neither.

[56:30] Samantha Williams: I see you mean I see you mean I see you.

[56:33] Charlie Murphy: Just for the warm up round, even though you could make it. You can make an argument.

[56:34] Samantha Williams: And you get to overrule me if I'm wrong.

[56:37] Charlie Murphy: Actually, secretly there is a Hansen connection.

[56:39] Samantha Williams: Okay, okay, okay.

[56:40] Charlie Murphy: Okay, here we go. We're gonna do the song lyric round.

[56:42] Samantha Williams: Okay.

[56:42] Charlie Murphy: Okay, so I'm gonna read you some song lyrics. None of these are your lyrics. And you're gonna have to tell me which show it belongs to.

[56:48] Charlie Murphy: Okay.

[56:48] Samantha Williams: Yeah?

[56:48] Charlie Murphy: Okay. If I stop smoking pot, then everything might be all right. I'll take your advice. I'll try to be more nice.

[56:54] Samantha Williams: Hansen.

[56:55] Charlie Murphy: Great.

[56:56] Samantha Williams: 100% correct. No one deserves to be forgotten. No one deserves to fade away.

[57:01] Charlie Murphy: Hansen.

[57:02] Samantha Williams: Hansen again.

[57:03] Charlie Murphy: Okay, great. You matter to me. Simple and plain and not much to ask from Sunday.

[57:08] Samantha Williams: Neither.

[57:09] Charlie Murphy: Neither.

[57:10] Samantha Williams: Right. Don't be silly. She's safe and sound. They buried her above the ground.

[57:16] Charlie Murphy: Uh Caroline.

[57:18] Samantha Williams: Okay, great. You're doing great. Okay.

[57:21] Charlie Murphy: Tanya Pinkins.

[57:23] Samantha Williams: Caroline.

[57:24] Charlie Murphy: Noah Galvin.

[57:27] Samantha Williams: Hansen.

[57:28] Charlie Murphy: Very good.

[57:29] Samantha Williams: Very good.

[57:30] Charlie Murphy: Chuck Cooper.

[57:31] Samantha Williams: Caroline.

[57:33] Charlie Murphy: Patrick Rowland.

[57:36] Samantha Williams: Is that Will Rowland?

[57:40] Charlie Murphy: Sure, but I made up a name. It's a made-up name.

[57:42] Samantha Williams: No, neither. I was trying to do it. I never heard of it.

[57:48] Charlie Murphy: All right. We're going to get a little more challenging. Okay, I'm a little more esoteric.

[57:52] Samantha Williams: Oh god.

[57:53] Charlie Murphy: Here we go. I'm removing neither as a category, just to make it a little bit more.

[57:56] Samantha Williams: Okay, okay.

[57:57] Charlie Murphy: It's going to be Caroline or Hansen.

[57:58] Samantha Williams: Okay.

[57:59] Charlie Murphy: Comedy club.

[58:01] Samantha Williams: Hansen.

[58:03] Charlie Murphy: No, it's Caroline. Caroline's is a comedy club. We're getting esoteric here. We're getting funky and weird.

[58:08] Samantha Williams: Oh.

[58:10] Charlie Murphy: Kennedy.

[58:12] Samantha Williams: Caroline.

[58:13] Charlie Murphy: Caroline Kennedy.

[58:14] Samantha Williams: Very good. Okay.

[58:15] Charlie Murphy: Mm-bop.

[58:17] Samantha Williams: Caroline.

[58:19] Charlie Murphy: That's Hansen.

[58:19] Samantha Williams: Mm-bop, bop, bop. Mm.

[58:21] Charlie Murphy: Hansen is a group from my childhood. This is how young you are.

[58:24] Samantha Williams: Oh, okay. Okay, I see what we're doing. I see what we're doing.

[58:27] Charlie Murphy: Now you see we're getting esoteric. Okay, it's the last question. Ba ba.

[58:35] Samantha Williams: Caroline.

[58:35] Charlie Murphy: Ba ba ba.

[58:37] Samantha Williams: I was helping with all singing.

[58:38] Charlie Murphy: Caroline.

[58:39] Samantha Williams: That's right. Sweet Caroline. That's exactly 100% correct. That's what we're doing.

[58:43] Charlie Murphy: Okay. You've done fantastically at the game.

[58:46] Samantha Williams: There it is. You know that, but you don't know mm bop.

[58:49] Charlie Murphy: It's embarrassing for me.

[58:51] Samantha Williams: That that's true. But it's fine. There's some listeners, some of our parents are like, oh my God, how dare you?

[58:56] Charlie Murphy: Mm-hmm. Okay. Um, let's just do a couple more questions and we'll wrap up. I'd love, while we've got this beautiful youth on, to talk a little bit about your relationship with social media.

[59:06] Samantha Williams: So specifically, how do you consume it and then how do you produce on it when we talk about social media?

[59:12] Samantha Williams: Oh god. I'm addicted to Instagram, unfortunately. I consume it all the time. It's horrible. Um, so I only have Instagram as social media. I don't have Facebook or Twitter or TikTok.

[59:25] Charlie Murphy: Instagram is owned by Facebook, so you do have Facebook.

[59:26] Samantha Williams: Exactly. You're part of the meta universe, whether you know.

[59:29] Samantha Williams: Um and uh yeah, I just I really know that I would love to be on TikTok, but I will get addicted to it, so I've I don't, I'm not on it. Um and so I I go through phases with Instagram where like I hate it because I feel like we've gotten to the point in our industry, unfortunately, where it feels like we need it.

[59:56] Samantha Williams: Um and I hate that. Like that just sucks. Um but I'm trying to use it the right way and like kind of cater it more towards like career things and like certain photo shoot like things, modeling stuff and use it meaning what you what you put out.

[1:00:17] Charlie Murphy: You're trying to use your platform.

[1:00:19] Samantha Williams: Yeah, use my platform. And then when I scroll through it, I just try to have a good time on it and like look at like sounds like a do as I say, not as I do situation.

[1:00:32] Charlie Murphy: I recommend just like doom scrolling all the time.

[1:00:34] Samantha Williams: Yeah, we don't on this podcast recommend such things.

[1:00:36] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, no, no, no. Like, yeah, I I recommend just following like accounts that are fun and like bring you joy. But like I I don't I don't think I think we have the power to not put as much importance into it as some people in our industry do.

[1:00:57] Charlie Murphy: And is is it a conversation you've had with either representatives or is it ever come up in a casting session that you know of where it's like, oh man, this but this one's got 20,000 Instagram followers, and this one's only got 5,000. Like is that something that you have talked about of a conscious, I want to try to bring up my presence for the sake of, especially I think as a young person.

[1:01:14] Samantha Williams: I'm once you're in your 40s and 50s, I think people are not casting you know, uh Casey based on her Instagram, you know. You know, she's a fine. Of course. But but as a person under 30, I think they go, Oh, that person does have a huge TikTok presence. The person it's at least a consideration.

[1:01:27] Samantha Williams: Yeah, it is most definitely a consideration. But I can't, I can't bring myself to do it.

[1:01:37] Charlie Murphy: That was a shoulder shrug is what you got. You got a side eye and a shoulder shrug.

[1:01:42] Samantha Williams: But yeah, I think there I mean, like, there's just a balance of everything. And it's unfortunate that TikTok personalities and stuff like that, like that is what is I know. It's because everybody hates it, but yet we all do it, right?

[1:02:02] Charlie Murphy: So it's like you're saying you hate it, but you're also addicted to it.

[1:02:04] Samantha Williams: Exactly. Like I I hate that like it matters how many follow followers that I have now, but like unfortunately it does, and I don't have that many. Because I'm like, I can't get bring myself to like self-promote like that. But uh maybe one day I'll book a TV show and get all the followers I need.

[1:02:24] Charlie Murphy: Well, no, from this podcast, you're gonna get 30 to 40 followers. I'm telling you, no, it's it's silly, but you know, use it how you will, I say. My last question is just if you could give one piece of advice, maybe I'll make it a two-part question. One piece of advice to 17-year-old Sammy, what would it be? And then the sort of part B of that is for your parents, if you could give one piece of advice for your parents, maybe specifically your dad, if that was a more difficult relationship, what would that be?

[1:02:53] Samantha Williams: Okay, so for myself to 17 year old, the 17 year old version of me, I would say it's all gonna be okay. No, I would say, I would say um whatever path you end up choosing is the right path and the right moment, and everything will work out for you as long as you're doing what you want to do in that moment. Um, and then for my parents, I would say she's gonna be alright. Trust her, trust your trust your kids and let them follow their hearts because I feel like living in capitalist America, like we feel like the only way to get far is by making a bunch of money and doing things that are set for you, but I feel like at the end of the day, like if you're not happy doing it, then what is the point? So I would just say let your child be happy.

[1:04:05] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. That's great advice.

[1:04:07] Charlie Murphy: Um, okay, we'll wrap things up there. We know we can follow you at Saw Me.

[1:04:12] Samantha Williams: And Sammy makes yummy food.

[1:04:15] Charlie Murphy: No, no, no. Not my food channel.

[1:04:17] Samantha Williams: You don't want your food channel out to the world.

[1:04:21] Charlie Murphy: I'm laughing so hard. I feel like we found it. We found it on the InstaWebs.

[1:04:25] Samantha Williams: Oh my god, that is.

[1:04:27] Charlie Murphy: And then tell me a little bit for anyone in Chicago. So tell me quickly about the show in Chicago they can come see.

[1:04:33] Samantha Williams: Come see LIFE AFTER in Chicago at the Goodman Theater. It is so good. It is one of the best musicals I've ever been a part of, and everyone is so talented, and the set is awesome, and it is just the coolest show, and it is about a girl named Alice who loses her dad and who is understanding grief for the first time in her life and just what it means to not have everything be in black and white and what it means to live in the gray. So I I feel like any everyone can resonate with that and it is such a good show and really if you find yourself in Chicago come on by we love it.

[1:05:22] Charlie Murphy: All right so we're gonna put that in the show notes. We'll definitely have LIFE AFTER a link to that we'll have your uh both of your Instagram handles even if you don't want only one of them there you're gonna get solos on both I'm telling you it's happening. Um Sammy thank you so much for today it was so fun getting this was awesome.

[1:05:36] Samantha Williams: Thank you for having me.

[1:05:43] Charlie Murphy: Mm bop it was so fun getting to have uh Samantha Williams on the show. She goes by Sammy though she was waffling on exactly how to call herself professionally so you'll hear me switch between Sammy and Samantha different times as we go kind of catching myself each time that I say her name. I did find her to be so cogent and intelligent and to have real depth and maturity for a person so young in this process. I just really appreciated she had kind of a really grounded perspective on how she saw the industry, especially coming through a turbulent time it was exciting to see someone who's really grounded in it and kind of understands what it is. Um my takeaway today is a short one. I always say that and then it ends up being normal length so I'm gonna stop saying that.

But it's really just to give you a bit of the other perspective on navigating booking work while in school. Sammy actually said it herself with the idea of maybe turning down the Toronto company of Dear Evan Hansen in order to stay in school. But then I know we gave like a number of examples of people who book and leave. And those Sammy didn't technically leave, she sort of kind of left planned to leave, but then did finish. So she was kind of an interesting case. But I will just say, in general, at MTCA, we are a big fan of students going to school and sticking it out the four years and getting that degree. It's not to say, of course, that you can't book work over the summer. We love that. Or specific situations like what Sammy ended up with where booking work later in your college career maybe allows you to still graduate with some help from the university.

But I do think it's worth saying that this is more of the exception than the rule in terms of university participation in booking work. Especially if you're talking about something like Broadway where you're doing eight shows a week. And in general, in most cases, we are going to advise students to stay in school and finish their degree, unless there's an opportunity that is just unpass-upable. But I would say nine out of ten times when a student comes to me and says, Hey, I just booked this work while in school. The first solution I'm gonna try to navigate is without having to take time off, right? Even if that means potentially not getting to do the job. Rather than sometimes people think, well, the job first and school comes second, right?

That's not how we think of it, certainly at MTCA. Um we've had instances where people take a leave and come back, but in general, I think the longer you stay away, the less likely it is that you actually come back, and then you often won't get to graduate with your class, and it just it, you know, there's some definite downsides um to leaving and taking that full um leave of absence. A special shout-out though to my friend Chris Peluso, who ended up going back and finishing his degree at Michigan over a decade later. So of course it can't happen, and it does happen. I'll tell you, I did book um a TV pilot while in my sophomore year of school at Carnegie Mellon. I had like an agent uh in Pittsburgh from my time in high school there, and it was a really, really difficult situation for me to navigate.

Um, it was only like a few weeks of filming, thinking it ended up being three weeks of filming, but it led to a lot of difficulty, a lot of tension with my professors who all really wanted me to prioritize school first. In fact, I almost I got came this close, came within one class of failing ballet that semester for missing too many classes. And that D, I got a D, is still the only bad grade I've ever received in my scholastic life, and I still feel it deep in my heart. Um, and I only avoided a similar grade in my movement class by taking three classes a day of makeup classes for the end of my semester. So, like I would go and take uh a movement class and then the same movement class again and then the same movement class again, and oh boy, my body was feeling it by the end of that.

But Carnegie Mullins' perspective there, and it's one that I actually share now as an adult, um, is that the priority should be on my education and my degree for those four years, that they were trying to help me build a sustainable foundation for my life in the industry, and no individual job was going to be worth messing that up. I mean, of course, these are all decisions that are to each their own, right? And each individual decision is unique. You know, I certainly say I mean booking Broadway is different than me booking a pilot in Pittsburgh for three weeks. But I just wanted to be sure that that perspective of kind of the downside of it was on the airwaves as well. That we weren't only talking about the excitement, which of course is exciting anytime you book work in school, um, but that it is a difficult decision that each person has to make on their own.

Well, if you enjoyed listening to this episode on your own, or maybe with your whole family, and you want to hear more, please hit that follow button. Each of you can individually hit the follow button. So we'll get that many more subscriptions. That's what we really want. Um, we'd also appreciate you if you rate and review us wherever you found us. I suggest five stars if you're addicted to this podcast, and an ironic five stars if you're following us just for fun. You can also reach out to us with questions for the pod at mailbag at mapping the college edition.com or reach out to me at Charmer7 on Instagram, where I very rarely post, and at Charmer on TikTok, where I will almost certainly never post.

If you're interested in working with MTCA for help with your individual prep for your college edition journey, please check us out at mtcollegeauditions.com or if you just want to Google MTCA, we should come up. You can also follow us on all of the socials media. Two my young artists out there mapping their journeys. You matter to me. I'll see you next week.

[1:10:51] Charlie Murphy: Mapping the college audition.