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[0:00] Charlie Murphy: Hello, hello, and welcome to season six of Mapping The College Audition. My God, six seasons and a movie. I am still delighted to be your host as we jump the shark this season. That's me, Charlie Murphy, director of MTCA, Musical Theatre College Auditions. Check us out at mtca.com. And today we've got Lisa Brescia from Stephens College on the pod. For our newer listeners, it's another one of our college deep dive episodes where we explore the landscape of the college theatre world and try to demystify this daunting audition process. And oh boy, we have some really exciting college episodes coming up this season. We have some returning guests from great schools like Boston University coming up in a few weeks, and then some heavy hitter new schools like Juilliard, which we just recorded today as I record this very intro.

And then a fun series of MTCA alumni family guest interviews that I think you'll really enjoy. I've been teasing those since last season and oh, they are coming. Very excited, season six, here we go. It was so great seeing so many of you at our big summer faculty masterclass week. I am really excited for the year ahead with our seniors, and it was so fun to see so many juniors and sophomores. It was just a really exciting week and a big success. I will say I'm also always so touched when people come up to me and tell me they've been listening for years. Some even telling me they're starstruck. My God, the podcast fame is real. But that was very meaningful to me. And I think the year, of course, our years keep going on and on.

So we've only been here for six years, but I think it was the youngest I heard somebody say they've been listening to the pod. Someone said since seventh grade, they've been listening as a parent since their child was in seventh grade. And here we are, my God. I hope you also all enjoyed our summer break episodes, both in terms of those new audio blogs that we recorded, but then also some of the re-airs of some of our alumni who are just crushing it on Broadway as we speak. I enjoyed both of those episodes greatly in listening back to them. I joked in one of the intros that I wouldn't have the ability to react to any breaking musical theater college editions news while I was gone, which was mostly a self-effacing joke about the importance of these very intros and takeaways.

But then, of course, our world was struck by some pretty tragic news over the summer in the form of Josh Grizzetti's death. Of course, I will say I don't have anything interesting or revolutionary to say on the subject, but I will just say for the record that, of course, all of us who knew him are heartbroken, even if we only knew him a little bit. And my heart truly goes out to his family and close friends. I will say in all of our professional interactions, he was a true light. You never know what's going on inside someone's head or in their personal life, but he was such a positive force in the industry. He was a crusader for affordability all around the college landscape, a big believer in what we believe in this podcast, which is the demystification of this complicated process.

He was a big believer in increasing equity and, from what it seemed, an all-around great guy. So he will be deeply missed. All right. Well, there's no great segue from that, but I wanted to say something. So I'll just say I'm sending love to all of you out there, and I do hope you enjoy this interview with Lisa Brescia from Stevens College.

[3:36] Charlie Murphy: Well, we are so excited to be joined by Lisa Brescia. Lisa has a couple degrees, an AA from the American Academy of Dramatic Arts, a BA in Theater Arts from Empire State College, and an MFA from the Academy for Classical Acting at George Washington University. She's been in, oh man, I counted seven Broadway shows, including Dear Evan Hansen, Mama Mia, Wicked, Aida, there's more, all kinds of cool regional TV stuff as well. She's taught previously at Missouri State before becoming the interim dean currently as we speak this, and associate professor of acting and the chair of performance at the Conservatory for the Performing Arts at Stevens College, which is still located in Columbia, Missouri. And they look at about 28 total performers between the acting and the musical theater cohort. Lisa, how'd we do there? You feeling good? Welcome on the pod.

[4:30] Lisa Brescia: That was very, very well done. Thank you so much for having me on. We're in our, as we record this, we're in our summer break of it all, so I'm out of practice. Sometimes I'm getting once a week. It's been a couple of weeks since I've done the bio, so I've got to see if I can stay lean, stay good with it. Is there anything, of course, we're that quick sort of informational bio of it. Is there anything you'd want us to know in terms of you before we dive into the Stevens of it all? Is there anything that you'd want to learn about who you are and your journey to? Obviously, a very active performer, but anything you want people to know in terms of your journey to the school?

[5:02] Lisa Brescia: Yeah, sure. First of all, I love sharing the story that I moved to New York at 18 with $300 and no plan and found my way and survived, supported myself, and then booked Broadway at the age of 29. So I was finally able to leave that survival job. So there's great hope, and it is a marathon, not a sprint, but I feel very grateful for the opportunities I've had. I knew that I wanted to teach. It was part of the reason I went for my MFA. Then after I got the MFA, I was booking a lot of work, and then I still felt the call to teach. So I accepted a wonderful offer from Missouri State as a professor of acting, and I was there. I came back to New York to do the role of Heidi Hansen in Dear Evan Hansen, and then I went back to Missouri State.

I loved my colleagues, but I got this opportunity at Stevens College, which is a new conservatory that is gender inclusive on the campus of Stevens, which is a women's college. So the conservatory is going into its fifth year. So I got very excited about building something. So I came here. I finished my fourth year, and then over the last year, as you said, I've been serving as interim dean, and I really missed being in the classroom. So I'll be returning to my chair and full-time faculty position in August, and I'm very, very excited. We hired an amazing new dean, and he's a terrific human being, a leader, artist, humanist. His name is Joe Price, and I know him actually from previously working with him at Missouri State. So cool.

[6:52] Charlie Murphy: My wife and I, we often talk about academia, and she always says, would you ever be tempted to go teach? I love teaching. I've taught a lot of schools, but the idea to be able to author some of the program as it's starting is very, an exciting opportunity when you go. I would have a little bit of leadership in those. So people out there, if you're ever looking, that's what I would take. I wouldn't teach a professor. I would do it, at least. Can we talk a little bit about Stevens in terms of the school itself? Is there anything that like, you've now been to a number of different schools, you've taught at different schools, you've certainly also in your career seen actors from all these different schools. What do you feel like makes it distinct and unique in terms of what you're trying to build at Stevens?

[7:28] Lisa Brescia: Well, it has a very unique timeline. So it is a three-year, eight-semester program. So our students are graduating with their BFA earlier than someone they went to high school, for instance. So it really is a very strong pre-professional program geared towards those who really know, I want to do this, and I want the skills that I need in order to be competitive. I want the business savviness and entrepreneurship that is necessary for the industry and to be your own manager before you have one. And also, it has some unique summer opportunities that other places aren't offering. So for instance, the first fall and spring are very much like a traditional program or conservatory. And then the first summer, we have a six-week intensive from 8 to 5 each day, Monday through Friday.

They're studying courses, and they're earning 12 credit hours within six weeks. It's basically an artistic, rigorous program that is 12 credit hours. And after that, they have the rest of their summer to do with what they like. And then the second summer, between the second and the third year, we have a professional summer stock theater in Iowa called the Okoboji Summer Theater. And our students audition and are cast and go up there, and they make theater both onstage and off. They are working alongside industry professionals, directors, choreographers, technicians, designers. So there's a lot of networking that goes on. And so that's what makes us very unique, but also our extraordinary faculty of people who have done the thing that our students dream of doing.

I think that's really important, being able to tell anecdotes about experiences in the industry, experiences at professional auditions, whether it be for Broadway or for regional theater or for film, television, et cetera. It demystifies it. It becomes more tangible. They can see that this is possible for me. Obviously, we need to work really hard. We need to have great instruction. And then from there, the business skills to move forward.

[9:59] Lisa Brescia: Another faculty member I want to mention is my husband, who is Craig Carnelia. He is a Broadway composer, lyricist. And many people around our age know him as the go-to acting through song guy in New York City for the Broadway community for 25 years. So his students include Annalee Ashford, Sutton Foster, Aaron Tveit, Brandon Uranowitz, Garrett Wilbert-Weed, Laura Dreyfuss, Beth Malone, Erica Henningsen. And that's just a partial list. Many of whom are podcast guests, but also, let's just say, a partial list, including my wife, Elizabeth Stanley, who was a big fan of Craig Carnelia. Definitely gave a little bit of love in her episode to Craig.

[10:40] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[10:41] Lisa Brescia: Yes. And so she is featured heavily in The Reason to Sing. See the book. Absolutely. Yeah. So it's incredible. Our students are getting the most sought after exclusive teacher in New York for that very subject. And he teaches all three years of students. So first year, second years, and third years. And he directs. He directed a production of Working in the Spring, for which he contributed four songs. And he very much loves working with these students. Very invested in them.

[11:13] Charlie Murphy: So cool. I just wanted to double click, because you mentioned the three years, and also, at least the sentence in there where you're saying, hey, this is really especially a program for people who feel pretty confident they want to do this, that know they're really ready for this kind of intensive training. What does that mean in terms of sort of the academic balance? If you're squeezing in four years of training into three years, which, of course, I think is doable to do that. Some schools even try to do it in two years. But what does it mean in terms of, like, how many academics might I come in with? How many academics am I going to get while I'm there? What does that look in terms of where you would fall on that spectrum of, you know, if it's a percentage of academics? How would you describe the non-theater academic classes that I'd be taking?

[11:52] Lisa Brescia: Yes, great question. So we have 30 Gen Ed credit hours that are required. And so it's around 120 to 128, depending on the major. Obviously, most theater has more dance and has private voice, so they have more required credit hours. 30 total for Gen Ed courses. And we have our own Gen Ed courses, which means that we can specifically design them and create them for young artists.

[12:22] Lisa Brescia: Meaning some of your 30 credits might be a theater history class or something that's where you're double dipping a little bit? Or is it an English class that you're then finding a way to make that theatrical?

[12:32] Lisa Brescia: We've looked for, we have four arts and humanities, right? So definitely, there's so much history. There's so much art history. Women in film is one of our offerings. All kinds of Gen Eds that are exciting. The history of rock and roll is one of our students.

[12:51] Charlie Murphy: Welcome back to Mapping The College Audition. Today, we have a special guest, Lisa Brescia, the Chair of Performance at the Conservatory for the Performing Arts at Stephens College.

[13:21] Lisa Brescia: Thank you for having me, Charlie. I'm excited to be here.

[13:51] Charlie Murphy: Let's dive into what makes Stephens College unique in its approach to training performers.

[14:21] Lisa Brescia: Absolutely. At Stephens, we focus on empowering our students to be their own managers by building self-advocacy skills and encouraging personalized outreach to agents starting from their freshman year.

[14:51] Lisa Brescia: We also offer a variety of dance classes, including ballet, jazz, and musical theater styles. For those with advanced dancing skills, we provide additional classes tailored to elevate their abilities.

[15:51] Charlie Murphy: That's really impressive. So, within the freshman curriculum, students are already taking a business class?

[16:21] Lisa Brescia: Yes, it's called "Intro to the Profession and Auditions." It's interesting that many schools reserve this kind of training for senior year, but we believe in starting early.

[16:51] Lisa Brescia: We want to ensure that every student, regardless of their prior audition experience, feels well-prepared to move forward.

[17:08] Charlie Murphy: Do many of your students pursue outside minors or double majors?

[17:25] Lisa Brescia: It's not possible at all because we are separate from the women's college. To maintain gender inclusivity, we cannot have any affiliation with the women's college side due to Title IX.

[17:44] Lisa Brescia: So, students will earn a BFA, and that's it. They can take additional classes, but it won't result in a minor.

[18:06] Charlie Murphy: What is campus life like for students outside of the theater program?

[18:21] Lisa Brescia: There's a ton of campus-wide activities that our students participate in. They can choose to room with a women's college student if they prefer, and there are events every week for students to intermingle.

[18:51] Lisa Brescia: We also have a student-run theater company called the Warehouse Theatre, where anyone from across the college can get involved.

[19:01] Charlie Murphy: That's great to hear! What is the gender breakdown within your program?

[19:21] Lisa Brescia: I would say it's about a 65-35 breakdown, with more women than men in the program.

[19:40] Charlie Murphy: Let's talk about costs. What does tuition look like?

[19:56] Lisa Brescia: We average around $47,000 a year, but we offer talent scholarships starting at $20,000, which can go up depending on audition submissions and GPA.

[20:21] Charlie Murphy: Is there a particular area that has a greater impact on reducing costs?

[20:34] Lisa Brescia: We lean into talent for scholarships, but high GPAs also help students receive the highest amounts available.

[20:53] Lisa Brescia: I also want to mention the Stevens Promise regarding cost. If a family's adjusted gross income is $75,000 or less, their tuition is covered after FAFSA.

[21:14] Charlie Murphy: That's fantastic! How do you prepare students for their launch into the industry?

[21:30] Lisa Brescia: We have a showcase that includes a digital component through Breakdown Services and Eco Cast, where students curate their materials.

[21:51] Lisa Brescia: We work with a business coach who helps students prepare their resumes and profiles, and we also have a showcase day where agents come for Q&A and one-on-one meetings.

[22:14] Charlie Murphy: Is this showcase held in New York City?

[22:25] Lisa Brescia: No, it's remote and held on campus. This way, we can save costs for students who would otherwise have to travel to New York.

[22:43] Lisa Brescia: We're still figuring out the best approach, as many people don't attend in-person showcases anymore.

[26:13] Lisa Brescia: Targeted mailing of talent representatives and theater companies. If somebody's interested in Chicago, the Goodman, Chicago Shakes, what interests them? What's their target city? We do extensive research on where they want to live, what those demographics are like, and what's the cost of living like there so they can make those decisions. Then we do a very targeted mailing to agents, managers, and casting directors through a research process. So it's like, okay, Lisa, what show are you right for right now? And I would say "Next to Normal" or let's say "Dear Evan Hansen," right? And so I would look up who cast "Dear Evan Hansen," and I'm going to look and see, ah, it's Tara Rubin's office, and then look at the casting associate and the casting assistant and all of those people and reach out to those people and send your materials—those digital showcase materials, headshot, resume, etc. Everything is personalized.

We don't want to just throw generalized text like spaghetti on the wall and see what sticks. But when we're like, I see that your client is in the ensemble of "Wicked," for which I absolutely, that is in my wheelhouse, and I'm very curious to talk to you, and so I've attached my digital showcase materials, my headshot, and resume. Very little—like they don't want long letters, right? So it's all supported by the faculty. We help them sort of find those avenues to those industry reps, and we support them along the way. They have very strong ideas about what their goals are, and it may be Broadway; it may be Minneapolis. You know, it just really—everyone's dreams are valid, and there's no hierarchy of dreams.

[28:09] Charlie Murphy: I love so much of that, and I think especially in the AI world, like I get so many emails now where it's like so clearly AI or such copy and pasting of like, here's why this person would be a good guest for your podcast. And I'm like, you can tell when somebody took the time to actually write an email that has something to do with knowing what my podcast is before they just like throw it in there from the numbers game. You definitely respond differently to those kind of emails.

[28:31] Lisa Brescia: Yeah, we encourage them to listen to podcasts that are featuring those agents and casting directors, and then they can refer to them in the letter, and it says like this person's making an effort as a business first, right? If you feel that ever. I also really like—I mean, I've mentioned this with a couple of showcase experiences—but being able to kind of separate what I call the capstone experience. Basically, the fact that you've got a family and friends sort of local showcase version of it is so nice because it happens sometimes in New York, especially as we have fewer agents attending some of the other big showcases. But the family does come, and there's a lot of alumni, and you sort of—you're like, is that—what is happening here?

Like, is 80% of this audience Carnegie Mellon alum? Is it, you know, sort of—is that feeling like it's the same experience as it was ten years ago? There's something nice about when you separate and like this is for the moms to come to, and then this is for the agents to come to more separately.

[29:22] Charlie Murphy: I would love to wrap this section with a little bit of a question of—I've mentioned that what makes Stephens different in terms of—as you were explaining the program. I'd love to talk a little bit, like kind of qualitatively, and we'll maybe get into this in a bit in terms of the audition itself, but you know the kind of students who tend to attend. How would you describe one of your students? What makes them as human beings maybe different than some of the other people at different programs?

[29:48] Lisa Brescia: So our students— inclusivity is very important to them. They care very much about feeling safe, supported, and celebrated for their identities as they develop because from 18 to 21, 22, they are discovering who they are. That's actually, I think, our biggest job is to support them in learning who their authentic selves are. And so they're tremendously supportive of one another. It is in the culture here—a striving for excellence with radical humanity. We really try to model the kind of generosity of spirit that allows people to succeed in the industry, but not just for that, but for their sense of well-being and belonging in the world and in the community here. So we try to really cultivate a place for acceptable risk because it's easy to say safe space.

It's more aligned with a place that is safe to enter into acceptable risk and explore vulnerability and explore emotional accessibility. Our students are very hard-working. They may be coming in with no dance training, but by the end of year two, they are passing dance calls, movement calls. They are extraordinary. Yeah, for the most part, right? We have people who are go-getters, and they're in the practice rooms every single night. They're up in the practice rooms all across the conservatory. Their practice rooms, there are dance studios that are open to them until midnight, and they're diving into their acting training with bravery and honesty.

[31:34] Lisa Brescia: I just—I think it's really interesting. We have a very strict attendance policy as well as an absence policy. If you're in a role in a show, if you miss more than two times unexcused, your understudy gets that part. If you miss a major core class—if you miss a major core class more than two times unexcused, your grade goes down a full letter grade. And what it teaches them is discipline, rigor, and all while joy—as much joy as we can get. But they learn how to be disciplined and show up and be there for each other, for their scene partners, how to be good citizens with each other. So because of that rigor, we don't have a lot of resentment that crops up amongst the students because they're like, we're all in this together. There's no space for someone to say drop the ball. They're all in it together. They need each other.

[32:42] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, that's all so well said. And I mean, especially a couple of years ago as we were having so many conversations about safety, that was something I always try to emphasize of like you want—there needs to be a balance of safety and rigor. I mean, you're talking about a brave space or whatever different words people have talked about in terms of that—what you're creating there. But that I think our students want that. I mean, you want to know you'll feel—you'll be safe if you are brave and vulnerable and go to some of the artistic risks, but also, you know, you want your professors to push you and of course not abuse you too. It's like all those balances of going—it's how do we find that? How do we find that place in between when it has an element of both of rigor but also safety?

[33:20] Lisa Brescia: Excellence with radical humanity. We're not going to lie to you. You know, we're just going to love you while we tell you the truth so that when you graduate, you don't come back five years later and say, "Why didn't you tell me this?"

[33:35] Charlie Murphy: All right, we'll take a little break, and on the back end, we'll talk a little bit about the audition and admissions process. So we are back in a flash.

[33:39] Charlie Murphy: All right, we are back with Lisa Brescia, and we're going to talk a little bit about the audition and admission process. So I'd love to start off with—I want to get into like what you look for in an audition and sort of what the audition itself looks like. But first, if I'm a newer student to this process, basically, can you talk me through what it means to apply and audition? So what am I going to have to send in advance? What am I—you know, what kind of things am I clicking? What things am I submitting? And then how that would work in terms of where I might actually do that audition for you, and then we'll double click on the audition itself. But from a holistic perspective, what do you need before you see me, and then how will that look from us?

[34:15] Lisa Brescia: Well, a lot of students we see—we see a lot of artists at recruitment events. You will be going to Chicago Unifieds this next year. We go to Moonifieds, Jurnify, lots of places for that privilege of seeing those young artists work. Meaning, when you talk about the recruitment events, meaning they will send nothing to you likely. You are meeting them first, seeing them, and then saying, "Hey, would you like to think about us?" Yes, we certainly call people back at those events. And even if we have it, you know, they don't give us enough time to call back all the people we want to see. Don't we know it's such a shame? But then I follow up with people that maybe didn't get to come in person to meet us, and I said, "I really, really appreciate it about this about your audition."

Again, it's important that they know that I was paying attention, that we are noticing who they are and what makes them unique. And so we'll be at a lot of those events. And then we also—if people are unaccepted, if they just add to that fast at that slash Stevens and app.getaccepted.com slash Stevens—that's what the pH—they will find us, and they can add us there. But we also—we have a website. I just want to make sure that people when they go to the website, they click on the conservatory because otherwise they're getting information about the Women's College. But we do have the link available there on our website, and we do accept Common App, but that does not replace audition or portfolio submissions. Portfolios would be for design.

[35:49] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, and so if I filled out a Common App first in terms of, you know, the acceptance of the pre-screen, are they then going to see a pre-screen video and be invited to an audition if they do it that way? Or am I sending in a pre-screen and I can immediately sign up for an audition? How does that look in terms of on your end at this point?

[36:07] Lisa Brescia: And again, the new thing is that we're not going to be able to do a pre-screen at this point. And again, the new dean who's starting next Monday—well, he will be in chair holding you to this process forever. This is June 29th of 2026. Yes, I mean, he may have other ideas, but we do a lot of taking a look at the pre-screen videos that are sent to us and submitted through accepted. If someone comes through Common App, we will then reach out to them and ask them to submit their materials to us, and then we get to preview those materials. I love to then share, you know, take a look at this student, take a look at this artist, and with the other faculty so that we're all weighing in. And then if we find out, oh, they're going to be at this event or that event, etc., keep an eye out for you. Yeah, there are students that we have gotten their pre-screen, and we know we want to work with them.

[37:07] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. So what do we look for? We look for someone who seems very authentically themselves, and they bring that into the room with them or into the video with them. That, you know, nothing to prove, everything to share, that they're well-prepared. But it's okay if you've had no training and you have no experience with MTCA, right? If you—I mean, we've had one student who was so remarkable, and their video was shot in their car because they didn't have the support in the community or in the family. They didn't know what they were doing. They were excellent and exciting. Their work was alive, and they were so—got carpool karaoke going on. I mean, you could do good stuff in the car. Come on, of course, good, good.

[38:01] Lisa Brescia: Okay, thanks. We're open, and then I love to Zoom with students to get to know them a little bit better. So basically, they've submitted that pre-screen, maybe met them in a recruitment event or not, where they submitted that—the application, their pre-screen. Then it might be a callback Zoom. It might be—what would you then call them back at Chicago Unifieds if you're going to be there and say, "Hey, come meet with us and do an audition," but really it'll be a callback since I've already seen some of your stuff?

[38:24] Lisa Brescia: Yes, we are very much interested in taking care of the artists and not putting them through their paces so that we look important.

[38:35] Lisa Brescia: Sometimes I feel like, you know, we have to have two more callbacks in order for me to think that we're selected. And we just don't believe in that. So if we're able to start... What does that audition look like? If you're not putting me through the paces, what am I doing in that room with you? And how are we learning and growing together? What might it look like in one of those callback auditions where I've already submitted a video and now here you are, whether you're Zooming me or whether I'm in Chicago Unifieds or wherever working with you? What might that look like? We might have a conversation. We might have a conversation and they like, let's workshop your material a little bit. I would love to work with you so that I can get to know you.

But I'm also very interested. I ask them, what are you looking for? What is your dream scenario? Do you want to be at a humongous university? We're probably not the place for you. Do you want to get a double major? That's not something we can offer. But I'll tell you all that we do have to offer, but I want them to be able to voice what they're looking for. And they may not know yet, but I at least want to ask them the question because they're auditioning us and they should be auditioning us just as much as we're holding auditions for them.

[39:53] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. I love it. Okay. And then you mentioned authenticity and some wonderful, these sound like MTC phrases that I've heard many times, but talk to me about, if you're making a decision now of, I met a lot of artists that I think I might want to work with, I'm getting down to 28. What makes you a little bit more likely to lean in one direction? Is it more about, I'm looking for a certain kind of talent? Am I looking more for how you talk about potential? So what would get you down from whatever that larger pool of people is to the pool of people that you'll ultimately admit?

[40:24] Lisa Brescia: I think that we can learn a lot by their response to our outreach to them. Because if they are getting back in touch with us, if they're saying, yes, let's meet on Zoom, let's have a conversation. What excites me are people that want to be here just as enthusiastically as we do. We want to work with people who are excited and enthusiastic about being in the room. And so that level of receptivity and responsiveness can make a really big difference because there are so many talented students out there. And we really want this environment to be not toxically positive, but kind. And we can learn a lot through a conversation. If somebody seems a little bit chilly and sort of like that, you know, sitting back and prove yourself to me, it's like, we don't need that. We're looking for someone who wants to lean in and learn from this incredible team of instructors.

[41:29] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, I love it. And then you mentioned, you know, of course, we're not going to do a lot of double majors or minors, but how much did the academics from an admission perspective matter? Do they have to clear a certain kind of academic bar? You mentioned a good GPA might help with scholarships, but how much are you looking at or caring about the academic side of it on your end or for the school itself?

[41:46] Lisa Brescia: I think that people are taken with a 2.5 or above. But we also understand that some people, we've had students who've lost a parent in their freshman year of high school, and they spent the rest of high school trying to lift that GPA from the very bottom. So we want to treat each person as an individual. We want to have really transparent discussions with that student about any kind of challenges they might have academically and how we can best support them as a college and as the conservatory, as their mentors. And that way, it's not just a steel door that comes down and keeps people out. When they're extremely talented and excited, we want to see if there's a way. And so there are exceptions to that.

[42:33] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, I love it. As you're thinking about putting together a class, you mentioned that gender inclusivity is really important to you. As you're thinking about the balance of human beings, is there other things you're thinking about in terms of racial diversity and height balance and size balance and geographical balance where you can? How are you thinking about the human beings that you're putting together in a room and how they're going to balance each other out?

[42:53] Lisa Brescia: Well, we do give some thought to that. And of course, we are so thrilled to have men, women, trans, non-binary students. And we also are open to non-traditional casting. We really do want a diversity of voices in the room, whether that's racially or through their faith or no faith and where they come from. You asked from earlier where they're coming from, and we have several students from Texas, Florida, Chicago, California. We have Montana coming this year, Delaware, and then Connecticut and New York City. So it's about a 15% of our student body that's coming from this area, the Midwest in this area.

[43:56] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, really cool. I'd love to just talk about what is the ambition for the program? So this is year six for you being there?

[44:03] Lisa Brescia: It'll be my fifth year.

[44:05] Charlie Murphy: It'll be your fifth year. Okay. So in your fifth year, if I were to come back on the podcast 10 years from now, what are you hoping you'll say that's different about the school than it is now? Is it about solidifying certain things that you're already doing? What do you sort of see of like, what does 10 years from now look like for you?

[44:20] Lisa Brescia: Well, it's already starting to happen. We're taking a look at how can we be more adventurous? So how can we offer the students opportunities to work with composer-lyricists who are developing a production? So last year is a great example. In the fall, Scott Schwartz came to campus. The West End composer-lyricist Pippa Cleary came to campus. And Phil Izzetnik, who wrote The Prince of Egypt with Stephen Schwartz, came to campus to do a two-week developmental workshop that I directed that Scott came out to, who's Stephen Schwartz's son. Scott came out to help them jump dramaturgically. We did the workshop. They developed it. There were new pages every day. Our students got to learn what that's like. And then in the spring, we did the world premiere production in English of that show. And we did a fully mounted production. And then on the weekends, we went into the studio here in Columbia and recorded the original cast album with our students.

[45:35] Charlie Murphy: So cool.

[45:36] Lisa Brescia: And that was just released at the end of May on all streaming platforms. So if you want to hear that and our students in that recording, it's called Snow White and Me. And there's a bonus track with Pippa and myself, which is fun. Everyone Google that, we got to hear that bonus track. We want to offer our students real world opportunities. And with Craig's connections to Andrew Lippa, Stephen Schwartz, Lin Manuel, I mean, Jason Robert Brown, you name it, Arizon Flaherty, and my own, I can reach out to so many artists and say, how can we do something with you? How can we help you with your project in a very low cost way in developing your piece of work? And so that's really exciting to me. We're looking at dance on film as a really specialized component of our program, making films that are taken from theatrical pieces or written.

We have an MFA in TV screenwriting, and we have a filmmaking BFA. And so with those available to our students, what can we do so that they leave here with a reel? And there's so many things that we'd like to add in, some study abroad opportunities. There are relationships that we're building with people in the UK to have some kind of program with them to elevate the program, but without making it feel pretentious. I'm not into pretension.

[47:01] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. I mean, we often talk about the balance of like, how actively do you want your professors to work? Because there's certainly a downside of like, my professors on Broadway every other day, and I would love to see them more often. But finding some version of that balance of being able to be really there and at the school and making that your intention, but you also cannot replace the connections that you and Craig have. I mean, if you don't have those, you're not going to be able to be getting the same people to come in. I mean, it's an interesting balance. I think people are often drawn to the, oh, look at these exciting Broadway connections. But finding what is that balance in terms of what you've done there, it seems like a-

[47:38] Lisa Brescia: Well, I'm very invested in the students. I would much rather be in the classroom with them than on stage. I do still do things, but I'm very selective. And I've turned down four Broadway auditions this last year.

[47:53] Charlie Murphy: Okay. Okay. But I mean, there's not nothing to also having achieved, to have achieved the seven Broadway shows and lived the dream to the point that it's not an unfulfilled thing for you that you're able to go, I want to be here.

[48:05] Lisa Brescia: And I want to do more, but I'm just so invested in these young artists. And so is Craig. He's very invested.

[48:13] Charlie Murphy: It's beautiful.

[48:14] Lisa Brescia: Students will ask, are you leaving?

[48:18] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. That's the fear. They go, you're selling me on this school, but I'm coming here for you. You better not be leaving.

[48:21] Lisa Brescia: Yeah. I like that. We've got them. That's on record. She's not leaving.

[48:29] Charlie Murphy: Okay. The other part that the parents will want me to hold your feet to the fire on is just in the post UArts world. I don't know if you follow the UArts of it all, where it sort of suddenly collapsed. A lot of parents are worried about finances of schools. Do you have a sense of what the finances are and not just are you leaving, but will the school be around five years from now? Do you feel like you have a sense of that in terms of financial stability?

[48:49] Lisa Brescia: Yes. Well, I know small liberal arts colleges are facing challenges right now. Thankfully, we have a very large endowment and we have a new president who is finding ingenious ways for revenue generation. That's not just from the conservatory because we have a lot of revenue generation over on our side. We've got ticket sales and we've got concession sales and we have the summer stock theater, which is adding, underwriting a lot of our own budgets. We feel really secure. On the women's college side, they are doing all kinds of business ideas. They bought a business here in town that then gets their business majors and their creative marketing professional degree students to go there and actually get some hands-on experiential learning and it generates revenue. Anything from, we're renting out tiny homes up in Iowa at the summer stock theater when they're not being used, which is, I don't know, $500 a night up there. It's crazy.

[49:52] Charlie Murphy: $500 a night for a tiny home?

[49:57] Lisa Brescia: For a tiny home. That's like a New York City apartment, I mean a hotel.

[50:04] Charlie Murphy: I know. When they have special events, they're all over it. The president, Shannon Lundin, this was just her first year, she is hell-bent on giving the students extraordinary hands-on experiential learning opportunities. They're also looking for all kinds of revenue generation to fortify and make our programs sustainable so that it can be another 100 years old. It's about to celebrate its 200th anniversary in 2033.

[50:33] Charlie Murphy: Wow, that's amazing.

[50:35] Lisa Brescia: Okay, let's wrap here. We're talking about the place that parents would be grilling you, and are you going to stay there? Are you going to be around? Let's just give a little advice to those anxious parents because a good percentage of our listeners are parents who often feel a little bit overwhelmed in this process. I want to help my child, but I didn't study theater. I don't know what any of this stuff is. What would you say to a parent who's trying to help their child through this process and is listening to this very podcast?

[50:59] Lisa Brescia: I always say to the parents at recruitment events, how are you? How are you doing? Because it's another full-time job for them, and they may not be familiar with the territory at all. I would say just remember that you are the soft place to fall, the students, when they have a hard day, and that you also need your own stress relief, and that if your child is treated poorly at an

[51:56] Lisa Brescia: And I think they're on Instagram. I'm really allergic to all of it. So, we have, I believe a TikTok account, and takeovers and things like that. I'm incredibly private and shy. That's what I'm in the room with someone even like a Zoom room. But yeah, we're all over social media. Feel free to look us up there. And then you can also reach out to the director of recruitment and retention who is a boss like she's just incredible and she is at KSimpsonSON at stevens.edu. Her name is Christy and she has all the answers one could ever hope to answer.

[54:42] Charlie Murphy: I love it, Lisa. Thanks so much for your time today. I really, really appreciate it. It's really good to talk to you, Charlie. Thanks for having me on.

[54:47] Charlie Murphy: Yes, yes, yes, what a fun interview that was. Lisa was a delight. I was a bit loopy in this interview. We recorded this in the middle of our summer break when we weren't really doing pods, so you can forgive me for just being a little out of practice, a little loopier. Poor Lisa, she just went with it very well, though.

[55:04] Charlie Murphy: One thing that we can't forgive me for is last season I really made a goal, nay almost a promise, of keeping these college episodes closer to 45 minutes than to an hour. And I'm already off on the wrong foot. I know you all like these takeaways; you want long takeaways, but you also don't want our long episodes. My apologies. And I will also say while we're at it, if I'm being honest, my next few college interviews are even longer, so I'm sorry. This is just what happened. We're doing our best, but now I'm making this episode longer by talking about the fact that it's long. So let's just dive into some really quick takeaways and get out of here.

[55:46] Charlie Murphy: You might think I'm gonna talk about the four-part showcase experience of Stephens College. After last season and our months-long runner talking about almost nothing but showcases, it felt like in the takeaways and in many of the episodes, you know, they got the targeted mailing, got the idea of separating out the capstone experience of graduation from the industry side of things being interesting. I do think that's interesting, but all of that is very season 5. So I will say nothing else about the showcase as well—misdirection for you.

[56:14] Charlie Murphy: I will also say just to touch on, I'm very interested in the safe versus brave space conversation. I think it's a really interesting conversation and a lot to mine there, but we have talked a lot about that on the show. So listen back if you want to hear more about that very like in around 2022-2023. We're talking about that a lot, but it's an important conversation that is ever-evolving. Though I can't say that I have anything really new to say about it, but you know that tension between safety and growth, you know, you got the warm and the gooey, but you also want to be rigorous. I think we've had a lot of this conversation with the pod, I think very productively.

[56:48] Charlie Murphy: What I will talk about a bit in this takeaway, though of course keeping it quite brief to keep this episode as short as we can, is just that concept that came up of like academic and artistic classes not necessarily being binary. You know, in the same way we talk about musical theater and acting is a pretty permeable membrane in the outside world. And then a lot of schools will talk about, in plenty of these schools, they have permeability in their membranes between the two majors and sometimes don't even distinguish the majors as much as other schools choose to.

[57:18] Charlie Murphy: You know, I often struggle as I try to help newer families kind of wrap their minds around the landscape of this all and you're trying to put these schools on the map, you know, and often I'm trying to start off for the especially the parents' sake of being like where does this school fall on the spectrum of like how conservatory-like it is, which again loosely meaning less academic versus being like more liberal arts, which is more academic. But conservatory and liberal arts can mean so many different things. I mean, you're talking about with conservatory-like schools being it's a more structured schedule versus liberal arts can be wider schedules. Doesn't necessarily mean more or less theater just because it's looser versus more structured, right?

[57:58] Charlie Murphy: But even when you just talk about in terms of like how academic is the school, how many academics might I be getting, how many academic courses might I be getting, it's still hard to pin down exactly what that might mean in these different contexts, right? There are schools that will, in the way they show their schedule, be trying to maximize for their artistic classes who might label classes like theater history as gen eds, trying to count that as a gen ed class so that they really can get in some extra theater classes, where there will be other schools that will be kind of maximizing for all the different minor possibilities. So they might be trying to make sure that a business of theater class counts toward a business minor or even some other—I've heard some creative ways of like counting something as a math class because it's got like music theory or those kind of things and everything in between, right?

[58:45] Charlie Murphy: There's all these different ways that schools will try to be creative in the way they talk about the curriculum, but some of those questions I will say you want to almost see through a bit because some of that is really about the marketing of it all of like that, you know, this is what's required to make this major work, but we're kind of leaning into this or leaning into that. They're trying to make themselves more attractive based on the kind of students that they think they're wanting to attract, so they're either playing into the academic angles or the artistic angles. But I think it's just worth thinking a little bit about the broader context of what you might get in a school experience that goes beyond just filling academic requirements.

[59:21] Charlie Murphy: You know, we often talk about this idea that there's a natural tension between acting training or musical theater training and the way it might want to happen in its purest and most intensive form if you weren't going to college at the same time and then also the college experience, which, you know, I think in its purest form screams about lots of new different experiences and trying all sorts of things, right? And I think there can be a difficulty there in kind of having those two in the same place, especially when some of those experiences for some people at college might be like frat parties and football games, and then you've got 8 a.m. yoga the next day. And how do you make all that happen, right? But it's at least worth considering what the broadening experiences you might be able to have that are within the context of a college class.

[1:00:04] Charlie Murphy: And I will say for me, I'm not convinced that it's necessarily a college class as opposed to maybe like a life experience that will be the thing that will broaden you as an artist, but I think it can be, right? It could be that could be life experiences, could be something that has nothing to do with school, but it could be school that potentially does it. And I think what I will say, and maybe the only little tidbit I'm adding to this beyond sort of exposition here, is that as an artist, the thing that goes into your art is not normally just the stuff that comes up in your technique-based classes, right? So, you know, as an artist, it's not just about honing skills, even though that is really important, but often you want something to feed your artistic soul that goes beyond that skill, right?

[1:01:01] Charlie Murphy: It's like what are the things that mean you have something to say about the world as an interpretive artist? Those often end up being hugely impactful in your career in the things that don't necessarily directly have to do with theater, right? Or for those who are exploring their other hyphens, it may literally mean as a writer, as a director, producer, whatever the hyphen that you're playing with, it might be that thing is what you produce a show about or what you write a show about, right? Which, you know, in some cases can be kind of meta and it's you write a show about the experience of going to a conservatory or acting training or what it is to be an actor. I think that certainly there's nothing wrong with that, but for many people, the thing that unlocks them and kind of makes them unique as an artist and really feeds them in and adds additionally to, you know, what they have to say in the world is something that is not art. It's not living in the drama school, I guess, right? And again, I don't think all of those have to come from academia. I don't think that has to come from a class, but it could.

[1:02:23] Charlie Murphy: But I always say that for the right student because that's for the right student who's curious and who wants that, right? Because there are some students that that's just not what they're interested in the moment. They want to do acting, singing, dancing, and so if they're forced to take electives, they may take a silly elective that doesn't really do much for them, and then you could have used either rest or another theater class in there that would have been more impactful for you. I will say I did a little both at my school. For me, I took some interesting academic classes that were interesting to me some semesters, and then like one semester I took a dodgeball and floor hockey class. I think those are the two sports that combined, but it was ridiculous.

I can't say that impacted my art too much. So just we're thinking about like it's not just about what goes on your degree when you talk about the academics of a school, but like are there things that actually could potentially open you up and be interesting to you that live in that college and that could bring that added value of what you're getting from a college experience that isn't just about the conservatory training or the BFA if it's not a conservatory-style BFA.

[1:03:21] Charlie Murphy: Well, that will do it for another episode of Mapping the College Audition. This episode was produced by Megan Cordier and Kelly Prendergast. Welcome back, Megan. You know, you can follow us at Mapping the College Audition on Instagram. You can like and subscribe to this podcast on all platforms that you could think to subscribe to us on, and you can write us a rating and review if you're feeling incredibly generous. And I know all of you out there are incredibly generous people. And as always, check us out at mtca.com for help with your individual college process. To my young artists out there mapping their journeys, please trust that you are enough for the right program exactly as you are right now. Now keep striving. We'll catch you next week.