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[0:00] Charlie Murphy: Hello, hello, and welcome to Mapping The College Audition. I'm your host, Charlie Murphy, director of MTCA. That's Musical Theatre College Auditions. Check us out at mtca.com. And today we've got Kathleen McNenny from The Juilliard School on the pod.

[0:19] Kathleen McNenny: Thank you for having me.

[0:26] Charlie Murphy: For our newer listeners, this is another one of our college deep dive episodes where we aim to explore the landscape of the college theatre world and try to demystify this daunting audition process. And this is one we've been scheduling for literally years. So we're very happy to have Juilliard represented on the pod. And Kathleen gives a really wonderful interview and representation here. I do think all of our listeners will get something from this, whether you are an acting-focused person, a musical theatre-focused person, more of a BFA auditioner, an MFA auditioner. I think just in hearing the way Kathleen talks about training in the business, I think there's a lot to gain from this interview.

[1:06] Kathleen McNenny: I'm feeling good. Thank you for having me.

[1:10] Charlie Murphy: As for me, you can hear I'm a little bit sick, so I apologize for that in the voice. We're struggling through. We're playing through. But things are going pretty darn well over here as we slide into fall. A few of you have asked, and so for those of you who are interested about our softball results, I do mention the Broadway Show League at the end of this interview. Yes, yes, yes. Last week, the Downtowners did in fact take down the title to reclaim our championship-winning ways, wresting the title from Actors' Equity last year. If you're really curious about our performance, and I know many of you are, your boy had what we're calling an immaculate day at the plate. I have turned into the Barry Ponds of the Broadway Show League, meaning I was intentionally walked five times, including once I was walked to lead off an inning, which is just insane from a game theory perspective.

You should not walk someone to lead off an inning. And I was also once intentionally walked with the bases loaded, walking in a run. The one pitch I was given in the game, the one pitch that I swung at resulted in a three-run home run, which is like the greatest day you can have at the plate. You cannot do better than one-for-one with five intentional walks in a three-run home run. So I think that means I need to retire from softball. That's it. I'm not going to beat that championship day. It's time to hang up my cleats. Of course, I won't do that because my goal is to play until my daughter can play with me. So we'll see. We're going to keep it going, but I don't think we're going to. This is our peak.

We've hit our peak right now in this episode with Juilliard and the Broadway Show League Championship. This is it. You're looking at peak Charlie. This is a long episode, a long interview. I have some long takeaways at the end, so I'm going to try to keep this intro short. Seniors, please keep killing it with your prescreen season. I know you're in the thick of it right now. May all of your prescreens be like intentional walks with the rare sprinkled-in three-run home run. Hopefully, this episode can be a bit of inspiration for you because this is one of those rare schools that don't require a prescreen. So please enjoy Kathleen McNenny from the Juilliard School.

[3:13] Charlie Murphy: Well, we are so excited to have Kathleen McNenny on the pod from the Juilliard School. Kathleen has a BFA from the University of Montana and a diploma from this very Juilliard School. She's been on Broadway in, I counted, nine shows, including The Father, Fish in the Dark, Enemy of the People, Death of a Salesman, A Few Good Men, and many more, in films like School of Rock, Morning Glory, Music and Lyrics, too many more to name, on TV everywhere, shows like Enemy Within, House of Cards, The Good Wife. Three different laws and order, it appears. You have many laws and order on your resume. Previously, she taught at places like Rutgers, UCSD, CAP21, the Actor Center, as well as other places, and has been on faculty with Juilliard since 2001, if her bio is correct, where she specializes in physical acting and masks.

Juilliard itself is still located in New York City, a stone's throw away from where I am recording this right now as we speak. They look for classes of about 18, and we'll talk about the two degrees they offer, the BFA and the MFA in acting, or in the drama division, at least. We'll talk about those specifics, but of course, Juilliard also offers degrees in music and dance, etc. Okay, Kathleen, that was a long bio. How are you feeling today?

[4:23] Kathleen McNenny: I'm feeling good. Thank you for having me.

[4:27] Charlie Murphy: We're so excited to have you. This is a true victory for the podcast. We've been just courting you for years, not specifically, but we've been courting Juilliard. I've been dropping little bait and seeing what I could catch on my hook, and this is the fish in the dark that I've caught. Would you tell me, is there anything else that you'd want to talk about in terms of your background, your journey to Juilliard? Anything you want people to know before we dive into the school itself?

[5:00] Kathleen McNenny: I think it's probably important to know, so when I graduated from Juilliard about a couple, three, four years out of school, I went back and taught a class on how you make the transition from being a student to being into the professional world, and I did that for many years. It was like a business class.

[5:15] Kathleen McNenny: Yeah, which really didn't exist in training programs. They just threw you out there and said, okay, now go figure it out. There are other things that we need to know, like how to find affordable housing, and there's lots of other pictures, and how to do your taxes, and certain just how to build a life as a creative person, how to have a family and raise a family and be an artist and those kinds of things, so I was doing that for quite a while, and then I became, and I was kind of all along, I've always kind of taught something, but mask work is specifically my specialty, and I became a member of the physical acting faculty in 19, let's see, 2019.

[6:04] Kathleen McNenny: Okay, it can't be 1919, Jose. If it was 1919, you really do look like this. I'm very, very old. I've been around a long, long time. I love it. All right, so we're going to pivot this podcast. We're not going to talk about Juilliard anymore. You're just going to talk to us about how to get affordable housing. You said affordable housing in New York City?

[6:22] Kathleen McNenny: Affordable housing in New York City. That's right. That's right. That's what I want to talk about for the next 20 minutes. I love that bio there. I'd love to hear, because especially you have this unique experience of you've attended Juilliard, you've attended Montana as well, you've taught now all these different places. You know, I think people have an idea in their heads of what Juilliard is. If I were to be like, what is a Juilliard student? What's the ethos of Juilliard? I'd love to hear from someone who went there and now teaches there. How would you describe, like, what makes Juilliard unique and different from other schools? What is a Juilliard student? What is Juilliard?

[7:06] Kathleen McNenny: I love my school. I think it's a fantastic school. I think the teachers are amazing. Two things make a good school. The faculty, you have to have amazing faculty. And the students that you are lucky enough to attract and who come. Putting together, I think even a director will say that their hardest and most important job is casting. Because that determines, right? And then all you're doing is you're trying to like help that talent, you know, or what you see in that student come to fruition. And we are very lucky, lucky that we attract some amazing people to audition for our school, which does not mean that they have a lot of experience. It just means they come with, you know, a lot of talent we have.

And then our job is just, again, to help that talent grow. We can't make somebody talented. They are. But you do have the benefit of, I imagine, yielding a pretty high percentage of the people that you want so that you, you know, many schools may audition a lot of talent but not necessarily get them to attend. I imagine, Juilliard, I don't know the exact numbers, but yields a pretty high percentage of the people that they want when they say, we think you're good.

[8:51] Kathleen McNenny: Yes, I would say that if people decide they, if we accept them, usually they want to come to our school. I would say over the course of the time, I think what we just took in group 59. So 59 years is how old our school is. And because I kind of have this kind of bird's eye view from my husband is a single digit. We label our, you know, year one, year two, year three, year four. I was 17. We're on group 59. And so because I have been in and out of the school almost, right, I have kind of this kind of overview of looking at it. I would say what's really changed a lot beside the fact that our diplomas became MFAs. That was something that was fought for. It helps our students be able to go on and to teach at a university level if they want to, which universities want that.

So that was an important addition. But our MFA, BFAs train together. All of their main courses, they're all together. So the age range can be from 18 to 30s. You know, there's some range in there. And we have added classes. You know, things are always evolving and changing. And one of the things that I think is exciting is that, so for example, our MFA students will have a directing class and they will also have a screenwriting class. They will complete, they will leave with a screenplay that they have written in their hands. The MFA actors. They will also have in their hands, they will have worked with outside actors are brought in for them to direct and design. Because we know that almost all artists these days are hyphenates. We don't just do one thing.

[10:35] Kathleen McNenny: And then we also have like the way the projects that we choose for our students. We're very actor focused. So every show that is chosen for a particular class because we want to give roles to particular people, they do four projects a year, which is a lot. It's a lot of projects. In their third year, they'll have a project that they get to totally create and design themselves. So it's all student initiated project. They make submissions and then three or four of them are chosen. And then they are cast from their class. That's very exciting again. And then in the fourth year, they are going to be making films that are all professionally done. We bring in professional crews, professional directors.

The stories are written by usually former playwrights or again professional people writing for the actor. And we make three of those. There's six actors in each of those. So that becomes another piece of their showcase that they have. In addition to their live showcase, they also have these films that are made. And sometimes they're put together. I think the last group they've been moving around and traveling to various festivals and have been entered into those competitions and whatnot. So it's exciting. Juilliard is known for being Alexander technique, I would say is the foundation of our program. And everything is built on top of that. And if you wanted to boil Alexander down to like a little soundbite, it's the discovery of your habit.

And then the discipline of learning to inhibit that habit to replace it with something different. And then you have a choice. I can either do my habit or I can do something different. So the habit no longer becomes a habit. It also becomes just another part of the arsenal of what you have to choose from. And it applies. We have Alexander coaches on every single show that we do is there working with our students. And we're also a real language based school. Language has always been a big part.

[13:02] Kathleen McNenny: Welcome to our discussion about The Juilliard School audition process.

[13:32] Charlie Murphy: I'm excited to dive into what makes Juilliard unique compared to other acting programs.

[14:02] Kathleen McNenny: Absolutely. One of the key aspects is our focus on the individual artist. We encourage students to bring their authentic selves into the audition room.

[14:30] Charlie Murphy: That's so important. Can you elaborate on what Juilliard looks for when evaluating young and developing artists?

[14:57] Kathleen McNenny: Certainly! We look for potential, passion, and a willingness to learn. It's about finding those who are ready to grow and explore their craft.

[15:26] Charlie Murphy: And how does Juilliard’s conservatory-style curriculum differ from a traditional BFA program?

[15:56] Kathleen McNenny: The conservatory model is immersive and intensive. Students are engaged in their training every day, focusing on honing their skills in a collaborative environment.

[16:26] Charlie Murphy: That sounds like a fantastic way to prepare students for the industry.

[16:54] Kathleen McNenny: It really is. We believe that this approach allows students to develop not just as performers, but as artists with a unique voice.

[17:22] Charlie Murphy: What advice would you give to students preparing for their auditions at Juilliard?

[17:42] Kathleen McNenny: I would say to be true to yourself. Authenticity is key, and we want to see who you are as an artist.

[18:12] Charlie Murphy: That's great advice. How can students best showcase their individuality during the audition process?

[18:40] Kathleen McNenny: They should choose material that resonates with them personally. It’s important to connect with the pieces they perform.

[19:10] Charlie Murphy: And what about the importance of preparation?

[19:40] Kathleen McNenny: Preparation is crucial. Students should be well-rehearsed but also flexible and open to direction during the audition.

[20:10] Charlie Murphy: Flexibility is such an important skill in this industry.

[20:40] Kathleen McNenny: Exactly! Being adaptable can make a significant difference in how one is perceived in the audition room.

[21:10] Charlie Murphy: What do you think is the biggest misconception about the Juilliard audition process?

[21:40] Kathleen McNenny: Many people think it's solely about talent, but it’s also about the journey and the potential for growth.

[22:10] Charlie Murphy: That’s a valuable perspective. It’s about finding the right fit for both the school and the student.

[22:40] Kathleen McNenny: Yes, and we want to ensure that students feel supported throughout their journey.

[23:10] Charlie Murphy: Thank you for sharing these insights, Kathleen. It’s been a pleasure discussing the Juilliard audition process with you.

[23:40] Kathleen McNenny: Thank you, Charlie! I hope this helps students feel more prepared and confident as they approach their auditions.

[24:10] Charlie Murphy: Absolutely! If anyone has questions about the college audition process, they can reach out to us.

[24:40] Kathleen McNenny: Yes, we’re here to help guide them through this exciting journey.

[25:10] Charlie Murphy: Thanks again, Kathleen, for joining us today.

[25:40] Kathleen McNenny: Thank you for having me!

[26:04] Charlie Murphy: Welcome back to Mapping The College Audition. Today, we have a special guest, Kathleen McNenny from The Juilliard School. Kathleen, thank you for joining us.

[26:29] Kathleen McNenny: Thank you for having me, Charlie. I'm excited to be here and discuss what makes Juilliard unique.

[26:54] Charlie Murphy: Absolutely. So, let's dive right in. What do you think sets Juilliard apart from other acting programs?

[27:19] Kathleen McNenny: Juilliard is unique in its approach to training artists. We focus on a conservatory-style curriculum that emphasizes not just technique but also the development of the individual artist. Our goal is to help students find their authentic selves and bring that into their work.

[27:44] Charlie Murphy: That’s a great point. Authenticity is so important in the audition room. How do you encourage students to bring their true selves into that space?

[28:04] Kathleen McNenny: We create an environment where students feel safe to explore and express themselves. We encourage them to take risks and to be vulnerable in their auditions. It's about finding the courage to show who they really are, which is what we look for when evaluating young artists.

[28:24] Charlie Murphy: That’s essential. What specific qualities does Juilliard look for in young and developing artists during the audition process?

[28:44] Kathleen McNenny: We look for a combination of talent, potential, and a willingness to learn. It's not just about having a polished performance; we want to see raw talent and the ability to grow. We also value individuality and the unique perspective each student brings.

[29:04] Charlie Murphy: Interesting! How does Juilliard’s conservatory-style curriculum differ from a traditional BFA program?

[29:24] Kathleen McNenny: The conservatory model is much more intensive and immersive. Students at Juilliard spend a significant amount of time in training, focusing on acting, voice, and movement. This differs from a traditional BFA, which may have a broader curriculum with more general education courses. Our students are fully immersed in their craft from day one.

[29:44] Charlie Murphy: That sounds like a rigorous but rewarding experience. How do you think this approach impacts the students' development as artists?

[30:04] Kathleen McNenny: It allows them to develop a deep understanding of their craft and themselves as artists. The immersive nature of the program fosters a strong sense of community and collaboration, which is vital for their growth. They learn not just from their instructors but also from each other.

[30:24] Charlie Murphy: Community is so important in the arts. Can you share any success stories from Juilliard that highlight this?

[30:44] Kathleen McNenny: Absolutely! Many of our alumni have gone on to have incredible careers on Broadway, in film, and television. They often credit their time at Juilliard for not only honing their skills but also for the relationships they built with their peers, which continue to support them throughout their careers.

[31:04] Charlie Murphy: That’s inspiring to hear. For students considering Juilliard, what advice would you give them as they prepare for their auditions?

[31:24] Kathleen McNenny: I would advise them to be true to themselves and to choose material that resonates with them personally. It's important to showcase their individuality and to approach the audition with confidence and authenticity.

[31:44] Charlie Murphy: Great advice! Thank you, Kathleen, for sharing your insights about Juilliard and the audition process.

[32:04] Kathleen McNenny: Thank you for having me, Charlie. It's been a pleasure discussing this with you.

[32:24] Charlie Murphy: And thank you to our listeners for tuning in. If you have any questions about the college audition process, feel free to reach out at mailbag@mappingthecollegeaudition.com.

[32:44] Kathleen McNenny: And if you're interested in learning more about Juilliard, I encourage you to visit our website for more information.

[33:04] Charlie Murphy: Absolutely! Until next time, keep exploring your authentic selves and good luck with your auditions!

[39:06] Kathleen McNenny: Your young child to come down and walk across the little walkway and go into the building. You don't want them navigating late at night and the streets and whatnot. And they don't have to worry about the long commutes. That is a huge, huge, another, like, I wish we could have housing. Again, this would be my dream would be to, like, have housing for all of our students. We have, you know, we have a student right now who comes probably an hour and a half everywhere from deep MFA deep out in Queens. Yeah. And it's too much. It's too much. But he's staying with someone for free.

[40:16] Charlie Murphy: Totally. Well, let's take our break on the back end. Well, we were going to give the secret of how to get into Juilliard.

[40:19] Kathleen McNenny: Oh, yeah. All right. We are back with Kathleen McNenny. And I promised that we're going to say the secret of how to get into Juilliard, which you're probably all too wise podcast listeners at this point to believe that that's actually what's going to happen. But before we do that, can we just talk a little bit about the basics of the audition process in terms of, you know, a lot of our BFA auditioners, especially if they're musical theater, are going to talk about prescreens. Right. And then they have to do maybe a unified audition, that kind of thing. And the way that they're doing their structure. Can we talk about like what the Juilliard application would look like from what we know prescreens, I think, are only required for international students.

Correct. But then where they'd audition. And then you mentioned there's a kind of potentially multiple callbacks process to that. So what would the overall audition process if I'm going to be one of the lucky 18 look like?

[41:08] Kathleen McNenny: Well, let me just say the international students that is live. Zoom. They're live Zoom auditions. So it's not like you don't mail something on the prescreen. Right. It's not filmed. It's those are live. So, okay, so that's that. And then basically intending to save you money to fly to New York. Absolutely. And that we will invite a few people to come to New York because now you have to do it live with us in the room. Right. So not on Zoom anymore. You will. There are 10 days in New York City. There are three days, I believe, in Chicago and three days in Seattle.

[41:45] Charlie Murphy: Seattle. Oh, I thought it was San Francisco.

[41:51] Kathleen McNenny: San Francisco. OK, I was losing my mind. Mixing it up on me. And that may change where that may change. Yeah. We do have a new head who's coming. You know, you know, this was our head who was left and gone back to Yale and Anna Shapiro will be our new head. So things are in transition all the time, constantly trying to figure out, you know, what is best. And I think one of the things that's been on the table is that it would be nice to open up a spot in the south somewhere to make that easier for people to access us that way.

[42:27] Charlie Murphy: OK, can't talk about that. All that voice and speech training. Come on. I know. Well, I think you have a unique challenge because you are both worried about the MFA auditioners who it's more about easier access, but might not necessarily do that many auditions versus a lot of our BFA auditioners are really trying to tie these to some unified experience.

[42:49] Kathleen McNenny: Yeah, which is tricky. Also, I know always a tricky consideration for our students to go. Do I want to give up one of my New York City unified days or whatever, where I might need to be there all day for Juilliard, but I might be there for 10 minutes or whatever, because just the basics, I guess, is still true. You know, I didn't think about that, but that's actually true that they are giving up their.

[43:05] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, potentially they can come like sometimes they'll be like, I'll come do walk ins if I don't get a call from Juilliard. So they'll come over whenever when those days line up, they don't always land on the same days, but when they do, it's always a tricky thing. But just to say that you would potentially have a same day callback, meaning you could be there all day for that. So what happens is everyone's called in the morning and so a day is assigned to you or you can pick a day and we have a big kind of a group warm up together. Then you are there are usually somewhere between six and seven rooms that are going simultaneously in each of those seven rooms. There are a faculty and one other two faculty or a faculty and alum or a faculty and someone.

So there's always two people in the room. The initial, I don't know, 15 people that go through, I'm making a random number, it could be 18, it could be 12, whatever. Then there is a first look. This is the way it's happened up until now, the way Evan set this up. This was new when she came. So this is what we've been doing for the last eight years or seven years. Then from that room, you may be called for an end of the day callback. So at the first look, you may end up having just seeing just a like half of the faculty. At the end of the day, you'll see all, you'll see the whole faculty and it's very intimidating, Charlie. Very intimidating. You walk into a room where there's like 30 people there.

I would never have gotten in if I had to audition this way. It's crazy. I mean, I understand not only the 30 people there, but also the cut down, at least, and this is truly anecdotally, maybe you know some of these numbers better, but it's pretty severe from so many people coming on a day to how many get called back. You know, maybe whatever, just say numbers, 100 some auditioning and then 150. And then at the end of the day, you may be seeing somewhere between eight and 15. And then from that, you may be asked to have an interview. That is no reflection on whether you're in or out. So you might have an interview at the end of the evening. And then once they're done with their 10 and their four and their three and four, you know, on the road, then they decide, and it's usually somewhere around 48 to 50 people are asked to come to a callback weekend, which is quite, they come on Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. All day Friday, all day Saturday, and half a day Sunday. You will do your pieces again, obviously, but you also will take classes.

[45:51] Charlie Murphy: The audition begins on the plane, is what you're telling me. I mean, really, it's a full three-day audition. You're auditioning the whole time. I think, again, I think our callback weekend is magical. I think you get amazing classes, and you really get to, you could take away, whether you get into Juilliard or not, that weekend alone will give you so much information about what it feels like to train, what it would feel like to train at Juilliard. You know, you're working with, again, these amazing teachers who are just, I mean, it's quite wonderful for those of us who aren't actually teaching classes to get to go in and watch our colleagues teach and go, oh my God, you're so amazing. It's really beautiful.

[46:32] Kathleen McNenny: Now, I do want to tell two stories. I want to tell two stories that I think are important to tell. Okay, so when I auditioned, I went down from University of Montana. I went down to San Francisco in a van, just packed with, you know, we had no money, and we stopped places, and it's just like, it's insane. Eight of us crammed in this van. And I, we did, at the time, they were like, you know, Yale, Juilliard, you know, all those in one place in San Francisco, and then we went down to Long Beach, and we did a whole bunch more down there. My auditions were over two days, and on the first day, Charlie, I got into not a single school. The second day, the same, I wore my same clothes, I did the same pieces, I got into every school.

That is how delicate it is. It's so delicate. We will miss incredibly talented people, and we, you know, every once in a while, we'll take in a lemon. You know, I mean, it just, you have to, you have to not base your worth on one of these auditions. You can't.

[48:01] Kathleen McNenny: The second one I'm going to tell is my husband's audition. My husband auditioned three times. Didn't get in the first time, didn't get in the second time, got in the third time. My husband is a four-time Tony Award winner. My husband is a phenomenal actor. He didn't get in the first two times, but he went, this is for me, and he just kept hanging in there, and he finally got in.

[48:21] Charlie Murphy: This is a terrible story. Now, everybody who doesn't get into Juilliard is going to keep trying. Three times is the lifetime max. Is that still true? Do they still actually limit you?

[48:31] Kathleen McNenny: Yes, yes. You cannot afford to… We have, every single year, Charlie, we take people in, every single year, usually someone who has auditioned before.

[48:40] Charlie Murphy: How are they supposed to know that, though? How are they supposed to know that they're like, I'm the one who's supposed to do it the third time versus go to an audition?

[48:49] Kathleen McNenny: Well, in most cases, they've made it. Right. They had a callback, it got closed. Maybe they were even at callback weekend, and we can actually, and we keep notes on everything, and we can see how they've grown or how things have evolved or changed.

[49:00] Charlie Murphy: So tough.

[49:01] Kathleen McNenny: Sometimes, you know, I mean, I really, I find auditions incredibly moving. I find it an act of bravery. They make me cry. I feel, as an actor, someone walks in with their hopes and their dreams, and I want them to have an amazing experience sharing their story with me. I can't take, we can't take everyone. We can't. But I can most certainly honor and respect the bravery it took you to come into this room, and bravo for you for having the courage to do it. And to come, you know, I mean, it's not a little thing. It's not a little thing to stand up in front of people and share your heart and your guts and your stories with us.

[49:41] Charlie Murphy: And I want to take everybody. Incredibly vulnerable, and you're already giving me a little bit of, now I'm going to toss you the question of how to get into Juilliard, and you're already giving me a little bit of what you're looking for. I'd love to maybe hear about, especially at the different phases, you know, because the biggest cut down sounds like it's from that first to get to even the end of day callback, and then there are smaller cuts to get down to the 18, if you're inviting 49 or whatever, 48. But from those first, that first room of seven rooms going at once, what might you see that makes you go, I want to see this person at the end of the day, or this person should go to that faculty, and is there anything that you might see that you go, I think it's not necessarily for me, right?

So obviously, each person's going to be a little different. You're talking about, you can't speak for all seven rooms at once, but how do you feel in terms of what would make you go, I'd like to see that person at the end of the day?

[50:23] Kathleen McNenny: I can tell when someone's been overcoached, and it no longer feels like it's coming from them, but it's coming from the faculty. It no longer feels like it's coming from them, but it's coming from somebody else. And I think there is a danger of that, big danger for that, that I think people should really keep an eye on. It's you we want to see. I don't want to see the choices that someone else made for you, or for you to replay something, but to be brave enough to come into the room and discover in the moment, it's as if you've forgotten everything. I like someone who takes a moment to establish where they are. We're an image, we've already told you that, we're an image school, where your imagination is interesting to us, and so can I see your imagination?

Are you imagining what you are talking about? Is it coming from some place deep within yourself that you imagine, right? Look for that. Sometimes it's interesting, I try to tell if nerves are covering up an actor, and sometimes we'll say, take a breath, let's just take another run at it, because I know my experience, right? Day one, day two, nothing, not a blip. Second day, I was like, I'm not getting in anywhere. I went home and cried that night. I cried, I'm not going to get in school, I want so badly. The next day I went back and I was doing it for me. I was like, I'm not getting in, so I'll.

[52:08] The Juilliard School Audition: The Juilliard School Audition is a production of The Juilliard School of Mapping.

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[53:28] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

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[58:08] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[58:18] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[58:28] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[58:48] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[58:58] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[59:08] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[59:18] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[59:28] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[59:38] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[59:48] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[59:58] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:00:08] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:00:18] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:00:28] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:00:38] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:00:48] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:00:58] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:01:08] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:01:18] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:01:28] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:01:38] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:01:48] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:01:58] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:02:08] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:02:18] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:02:28] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:02:38] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:02:48] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:02:58] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:03:08] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:03:18] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:03:28] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:03:38] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:03:48] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:03:58] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:04:08] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:04:18] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:04:28] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:04:38] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:04:48] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:04:58] The Juilliard School: www.thejuilliardschool.com

[1:05:10] Charlie Murphy: You mentioned you now have a unique position with this as someone who's gone through it yourself with your child. You know, we have a lot of parent listeners to this podcast out there. Some of them tell me they've been listening to this podcast for six years since their kid started, but that's fine. Thank you for your loyalty to this podcast. But how do you advise guiding a child who wants to go through this? Most of them will not be artists themselves, though, our listeners. Most of them are lawyers and doctors, whatever. They have their other careers that they're navigating. They go, "I'm brand new to this. That's why I'm listening to this darn thing." How do you advise that they help their children through this process?

It's very vulnerable, it's very emotional, it's a rollercoaster, and you have to kind of hold space for your student, for your child, and not get— which I find very difficult, right? Because I, you know, not to like become attached. The parent can't be attached to the outcome your child will be, but you are just there going, "Well, what's next?" Right? What will be next? You have a dream. What can we do to make that happen? I have some tell people that are in New York City, you know, a lot of times, you know, they didn't— the dream didn't happen to get into a particular school that they wanted, and I said, "You can make a beautiful training program for yourself. You don't have to wait for somebody to— right?

You can keep training. You can go back and try it again. You can take classes. You can— if you want to get better at your craft, training schools aren't the only way to do it. There are other ways to get better at your craft, and you know all the teachers at all these schools. I teach privately. Lots of us teach out there privately. There's lots and lots of ways for you to continue to grow and study, and it shouldn't stay isolated inside four walls. Why should it only be for those people? No, it should be for everybody. So you can find it if you want it. And so those are things when your child— you're gonna let them cry. You have to let them cry because it's sad when they get rejected from something that they wanted very badly.

Yeah, and it's different than other kinds of professions because this profession is full of it. And so how do you think— how did you do yourself at that advice? Were you able to not be too attached and hold space for your child?

[1:07:37] Kathleen McNenny: No, I got terribly attached. We were terrible. The good thing was is I tried— didn't coach my kid, didn't whatever. It's like at one point she said, "Will you listen?" I said, "I'd be happy to listen," and I tried to keep— like, mm-hmm, mama keeping her hands off, right? Because the parents who are both acting teachers, that got messed up, but she has her own— we knew this about her. Yeah, to trust my child that she knows what she's doing. Yeah, she's got her own instincts, and I didn't expect her to get in. Uh-huh, because it's that hard. It's hard. Yeah, even knowing that I've got a talented kid. Yeah, right? It's hard. It's very hard, so I was stealing myself for the tears, which did come, right?

Because when she auditioned for Juilliard, by the way, she didn't make it out of the first room, so she cried, and I was like, "Yeah, I'm sorry. Cry, cry, cry, cry." She goes, "But I think I'm still gonna audition for, you know, these other schools that you want to audition for," and she got into those. So, you know, it's— and that's the not logic of it. You have to understand there's not logic here. It's like you get rejected from one and accepted to another. Why? Why? Yeah, for non-artists, it's so hard to understand that. I'm going to understand Harvard, right? Obviously, it's how it works. It's not always the case. It's not in this world. If you're a sports person, my husband describes it to a baseball player.

He says if you are hitting .300 in baseball, you are a fucking great baseball player. That means every ten times you stand up, you strike out seven times. Well, you need a strikeout. You make it out. Let's be clear, Kathleen, for the people who really cut— some of that's a pop-out, some of the ground out. Seven out of ten, it's not a strikeout. That's not— well, all right, all right, but you didn't make it on base.

[1:09:29] Charlie Murphy: That's true. You're talking to the Broadway Show League MVP here, Kathleen. Pretend like we don't know baseball here. Okay, come on. Oh, okay. I love it. I love it, but it sometimes helps parents to look at it that way. You are not— you know, you're working at such a high level. You're gonna get a lot of rejection. For big actors, three out of ten would be unbelievable. Fifty auditions, you hope to get one.

[1:10:00] Kathleen McNenny: Well, now we've depressed everybody. We did not give them the secret to get into Juilliard. We've depressed them all.

[1:10:04] Charlie Murphy: I really want to thank you for your time, Kathleen. If people want more information, is there a place that you really think you really like and go to the website? You like social media? You want them— you know, the website?

[1:10:09] Kathleen McNenny: I would go to the website. Yeah, and there's— and then any questions you have along the way, you'll see there's a million different spider webs that you can follow. Just walk into Juilliard and breathe some Kevin Klein air, and just— there you go.

[1:10:25] Charlie Murphy: Exactly. Go on a tour, you know, there's lots of things you can do. I really do appreciate the time. Thank you, Kathleen.

[1:10:36] Kathleen McNenny: Yes, yes, yes. So joyful to be chatting with Kathleen. She was just so easy to talk to and really fun. My favorite part in watching it back for those who catch the video, if you're watching on YouTube or Spotify video, is that she leans over the computer screen when she's making a point. She really leans into the camera just like I do when I'm on a laptop. It's my favorite technique, especially when teaching. I'll really lean in to make a point. Okay, let's jump into some takeaways because I got a bunch. Um, let's first start off talking about that unique idea of the MFA and the BFA training together. You know, we haven't really done a lot of MFA deep dives except insofar as it relates to the idea of someone going from a BA to a generic MFA.

I was talking about that recently, or the idea of a BFA to an MFA, and me sort of saying I don't think that for most people is going to end up being the right path, or at least not my recommended path to go right from a BFA into an MFA in the same discipline. Um, we certainly have had plenty of artist guests who did go the MFA route, so you've gotten to hear a lot of that in the artist episodes. But I guess you can tell me as a listener if you want more MFA specific episodes, right? Would it be helpful to you if I had Yale or an NYU grad or a UCSD or a school like that on the podcast? Happy to do more of those if those are interesting to you. But here really the takeaway I want to talk about was the interesting idea of what it is to do those trainings together, do that in combination, right?

Plenty of schools that have MFAs and BFA programs that are separate, but not a lot of schools like Juilliard. I don't know of any schools that train in this exact way with the two classes really as one whole core cohort, right? Which is really— it's an odd thing and something really worth thinking about to have full adults training alongside these precocious and very mature 18-year-old kids who are still kids. I mean, I guess you're not a kid at 18, but you know, 17, 18-year-old kids alongside 30-year-olds. It's really an interesting dynamic, right? And again, I got a little bit of a window into this because some of my best friends went here, so I got to peek inside the training experience when I would come up and stay with Alejandro and hang out with Gabe.

And I will say, I've told this story many times, but I have such a vivid memory of attending one of their freshman movement classes or one of these visits. I, you know, staying with Alejandro, I attended the freshman movement class, and like we rolled up to class like five minutes early. We're still kind of like sleepy-eyed from like a late night before, whatever we've been getting up to. You know, we think we're gonna like touch our toes and then take a movement class. Here we go. It's like 9 a.m., right? And there was this guy in the corner of this movement class who was in like a full lather, like a full sweat, doing some sort of like burpee exercise. He was like doing push-ups and like standing up and jumping or whatever.

You know, if you don't know, you've seen someone who looks like they're in the middle of calisthenics, and he was just— I mean, just cannot describe to you how wet and pouring sweat this man was. And I looked at Alejandro, I was like, "Who is this psycho of a full adult man in this class with us?" And all I was like, "Oh, it's just our classmate Adam Driver." Who's like— this is apparently like totally normal for him. Like he would literally run across the bridge from Queens on his way to class in the morning so that like class would be— he'd be warmed up for class because he would have already gone on this like multi-multi-mile run, right? Now, obviously, this is a pretty specific case for anyone who knows who Adam Driver is now, like of course a household name.

He had just come out of the Marine Corps, so not all of your Juilliard classmates necessarily would be right out of the Marine Corps. And it just happens to be ironic that this person turns into a household name because I've been telling that story for years before anyone heard of Adam Driver. Like there was this full adult who was like in a deep sweat in class with us, right? But I do think there's just a significant difference in the sort of tenor of a class when you're going to have, you know, even mature 18-year-olds alongside full adults. And I do think that really extends for those who are more BFA focused. That same idea really extends into BFA environments, too. I always use my example of like my class at Carnegie Mellon.

I think was pretty stalwart and pretty serious. Like there were not a lot of people in our class who were in frats or staying up late drinking or not taking class seriously, right? And those who did— and there were, I guess, a few who did— didn't make it to sophomore year, right? If they weren't able to keep up with the classwork, they didn't make it to sophomore year, right? So I actually often use Carnegie Mellon as an example where the class tone is going to be more adult than some other contemporaries maybe who didn't go to a BFA at all or even went to a BFA, but they maybe went to a more loose college experience. Maybe it was a big state school where there was just a more broader college experience around them.

You know, whereas I often say going to Carnegie Mellon felt a bit like going to grad school in terms of the level of seriousness of my classmates. But again, most of my classmates were 18, 19, 20. I had a couple 20, 21-year-olds in class with us, but most of us were in that range as opposed to some of those full adults, right? And yet still, even in my very serious Carnegie Mellon class, there was nothing like the sweaty Adam Driver in our movement class. And I use that as an example just because it's funny, but you know, half of the class will be full adults. They'll be taking it more seriously. You know, some of them will have children, right? They'll just be looking at the class experience in a different way and bringing a different perspective or just like the literal experience of doing a scene with a 35-year-old when you're 18.

It's just going to change the way classes feel. I mean, it can be beautiful. I think you're going to get a different positive experience from the maturity of that, but not every 18-year-old is necessarily ready to be in classes with 30-year-olds. So it's something to really consider and a very unique part of the Juilliard experience.

[1:16:11] Charlie Murphy: Okay, and then you heard my editorial comment about the rawness and the kind of students that I think they tend to accept. Again, that's a pretty subjective idea that I'm throwing out there, right? And so many schools are going to say, "We're looking for raw talent." Basically, you've heard that if you're a regular listener to this podcast. You've heard almost every school say a version of "we're looking for raw talent." But I will say it is something that I've really observed over the years when you see the students of ours at least that have gotten into Juilliard. I'll say when students ask for advice either right before their Juilliard audition, Carnegie Mellon audition, RADA, you know, I would say that's any of the very competitive acting-focused programs.

That will often be my go-to is this idea of like lean into your messiness. Go for your like full home run swing. Oh God, I can't stop talking about softball this time. I guess we're in the softball place. Whatever. Play at the speed of fun, right? That idea of like it's okay if it's not safe. In fact, we kind of want to run away from the safe or polished version of things, and you want to have that dirtier, messier, riskier try of things, right? I think that tends to be pretty good advice across the board, and you certainly have heard me say that across the board of the auditions. But I will say in some musical theater auditions, you know, in just where some of our students' aptitude tends to lie, there is such a thing as a really great, confident, poised audition where they just don't miss a beat, and they feel really confident, and that's just where they're going to be the most comfortable rather than in that like really messy version of things, right?

Now, I would still say even those students likely need a little bit of a shake-up, you know, a little bit of a— you know, to that advice to find the present, find the organic, find the authentic so that it doesn't become robotic. But in terms of what the actual result is going to look like in terms of what they could achieve in a successful audition, it could end up being a product that is a little bit more polished and still really successful for some of these musical theater auditions. But I think, you know, it's true for acting schools in general and especially at the—

[1:18:12] Charlie Murphy: The Juilliard School audition process is unique in many ways. One aspect that stands out is how students can access their best selves through different emotional releases. For example, I’ve seen students like Marcus channel their anger into motivation, similar to how Michael Jordan would create imaginary rivalries to push himself. This idea of using external challenges to fuel performance can be powerful.

[1:19:12] Charlie Murphy: On the other hand, Kathleen’s approach to release is more common, where the focus is on doing it for oneself. I remember my friend Alejandro, who got rejected from Carnegie Mellon before his Juilliard audition. That rejection freed him; he thought, "I’m not getting into any school, so I’ll just go for it." This mindset allowed him to have a fantastic audition.

[1:20:12] Charlie Murphy: The metaphor of jumping off a cliff resonates with me. You can’t half-jump; you have to leap fully to find your wings on the way down. Everyone has their own way of accessing that release, whether through anger or a carefree attitude. It’s essential to find what works for you, especially as auditions approach.

[1:21:12] Charlie Murphy: At MTCA, we emphasize the psychological aspect of auditions. A significant part of that is finding your version of a confident, present state, like what I call "second day Kathleen." It’s about accessing your best work. Kathleen shared a beautiful story about her third Juilliard audition that highlights the subjective nature of this process and the power of perseverance.

[1:22:12] Charlie Murphy: It’s crucial for our college-age listeners to understand the risks of focusing too narrowly on one school. If Juilliard is the only option, it can lead to disappointment. Kathleen’s husband auditioned three times before getting in, which is a great success story, but it’s worth noting that this path is often easier for MFA candidates than for BFA candidates.

[1:23:12] Charlie Murphy: For BFA students, delaying college to re-audition can be a significant decision. It’s different when you’re older and have more life experience, like living in New York and working while auditioning. Younger students might find themselves in a tough spot if they’re not fully committed to their current school while still dreaming of Juilliard.

[1:24:12] Charlie Murphy: We’ve seen students who successfully re-audition, but it’s essential to weigh the pros and cons of doing so. The subjectivity of the audition process is real. For instance, we’ve had students get into Carnegie Mellon but not Juilliard, and vice versa. It’s a reminder that the decision-making process is highly artistic and subjective.

[1:25:12] Charlie Murphy: Even within the same school, different faculty members can have varying opinions on the same audition. I recall a student who got into Juilliard after being rejected by Carnegie Mellon. The same pieces, the same day, but two entirely different outcomes. This illustrates how subjective the process can be, especially at competitive schools.

[1:26:12] Charlie Murphy: It’s not about labeling actors as good or bad; it’s about the subjective experience of the audition. We often hear about how competitive it is, but it’s essential to recognize that many factors influence these decisions.

[1:27:12] Charlie Murphy: As we wrap up, I want to send some good vibes to our listeners and maybe a few hundred thousand dollars to the Juilliard Capital Campaign to make the school free. It’s exciting to see schools recognizing the financial burdens on students and working to provide more scholarships and low-cost alternatives.

[1:28:12] Charlie Murphy: This shift is significant, especially in the past few years, as more schools compete to offer affordable options for students. We want to ensure that artists can graduate without crippling debt, which is crucial for their future in the industry.

[1:29:12] Charlie Murphy: Thank you for joining us for another episode of Mapping the College Audition, produced by Kelly Prendergast. Please like and subscribe wherever you can. If you want to see more grad school-focused episodes or if you enjoy our current format, let us know.

[1:30:12] Charlie Murphy: You can follow us on Instagram at Mapping the College Audition, check us out on YouTube, and visit MTCA.com for help with your audition process. To all the young artists mapping their journeys, remember that you are enough for the right program just as you are. Keep striving, and we’ll catch you next week.