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[0:01] Charlie Murphy: Hello, and welcome to Mapping The College Audition. I'm your host, Charlie Murphy, director of MTCA. That's Musical Theatre College Auditions. Check us out at mtca.com. And today, we've got Rick Walters from Viterbo University. That's Viterbo. We spent about five minutes in the episode just going over the name pronunciation. You can call it Viterbo if you want, but it is officially one of our most mispronounced college names. So if you get nothing else from this episode, you'll learn how to pronounce Viterbo. For our newer listeners, this is one of the college deep dive episodes where we explore the landscape of the college theatre world and try to demystify this daunting audition process, one school at a time, I think is what I meant there.

I think you're really going to enjoy this episode. We kept it on the shorter side in terms of the interview, but we still got into a lot of good stuff. And that just means more time for the intro and the takeaway, both of which are very long. Speaking of, we did successfully introduce video for both the intro and the takeaway for those of you fiends who like video. We did that in the last episode with Cara Rose DiPietro. It seemed to go off without a hitch in terms of technically, though of course, you can tell me if you had any issues with us, please reach out to us at mailbag at mappingthecollegeaudition.com. But one area I did misspeak was that I said video would be available on all platforms.

And that technically wasn't true. Video is available for all of our Spotify listeners, and for all of our YouTube viewers slash listeners. But for our Apple podcast peoples, you're sticking to audio only, right? Apparently, this is because BPN runs on Megaphone, which is owned by Spotify, and their competitors, blah, blah, blah. But for my Apple podcast peeps, of which I am one, I'm an Apple podcast peep. I think you're making the right decision not to stare at my face while I talk to you. But I think all these video people are weird. And we are, of course, happy to accommodate the weirdos. We love weirdos in the theater. But you are Apple podcast peeps, you will continue to get audio only through Apple.

I'm trying to say Apple podcast peeps a bunch of times in a row. It's harder than you think. But of course, what's great about audio only is that you can all use these pods for their truly intended purpose, which is listening in bed to help you fall asleep, something way too many of our students were very happy to tell me that's how they listen to the podcast, New York City Unified. And of course, more importantly than that, the most important thing is whatever podcast you choose, whatever podcast platform that is that you choose to listen on, please make sure you subscribe so you don't miss a single episode. Speaking of our next artist episode, we're going to continue a version of this conversation that we had with Kara and getting into psychological competitiveness a bit deeper as promised.

But I do just want to shout out quickly to all of our amazing seniors who right now are in the thick of their process and going through that psychological competitiveness for themselves. We had a really great time at New York City Unified, we got to see a ton of you at our kickoff meeting at our complimentary warm ups in the green room, etc. Some of you stopped by and had some bagels and all kinds of snacks on us. We were thrilled to do that. It was really great to get to connect with so many of you. For those lucky enough to be in the green room on Sunday, you even got a Solvay appearance. And she kept telling me afterward how much she loved all of the party people, as she called them. I loved all the party people I met.

But while we're talking psychological competitiveness, the reason I want to do this a bit of an intro, since that episode is going to hit in the middle of Chicago Unified, where it'll be partway through the audition experience for many of you, I think it'll still be really helpful. But I just want to give you a little bit of a preview and an encouragement to keep doing what you need to do to psychologically stay in the game. Right. Rick talks in this interview about the idea of you interviewing the schools as much as the reverse. Of course, that is good advice that you've heard before in the podcast. And it's all indicating that idea of how confidence is so important, which of course, we talked about last episode confidence as a performance and that remains ever so important.

That idea of how do you walk into the room with the genuine belief that you have something to share that is special and unique, because I promise you, you all do. You just need to be able to walk in there believing it too. I know it, but you need to know it, right. And that doesn't mean every single college is going to want you if you can do that. But if you can hold on to what is unique about your artistry, that core of who you are, and believe that you are a great fit for the right program, just as you are right now, it enables that right program to see that and connect with you in a real way. This is where I so often use those dating analogies. And where I think those dating analogies are most helpful.

I've talked about this before, if I'm able to know who I am, and what I'm looking to attract, then our magnets, they can meet up with each other, right, me in the right school. But if I'm trying to be what they think they're looking for, what I think they're looking for, or if I'm trying to be some other version of myself, I may not actually end up repelling a school that actually would have been a good fit, right? I'm not sure why I started making magnets part of this was a dating analogy, not a magnet analogy, but there's something in there, right? It's like you being the magnet that you actually are will attract the right school. There we go. But part of the reason I'm bringing up that psychology now on a little bit more of a serious note, is it's something that we're going to talk about on our next episode a bit.

But this is the time of year where I think those first trickles of feedback can start coming in. And those first trickles of feedback can really throw some people for a loop. Please be very careful with your gentle artistic souls in not ascribing too much to that early feedback. I promise you, I've been doing this process for 20 years now, 20 years, and the first trickles of results do not indicate what's going to happen for the next wave. I promise you it doesn't. We see it every year. Of course, there are students who start off doing really well, and they keep doing well the whole time. Great. Of course, we have those students, right? But we also have students who start off with some tough rejection, sometimes a lot of tough rejection, and then they get yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, all in a row, right?

And the reverse are students who start off with a big yes. And that doesn't mean there can't be some really big no's down the road, right? Each new audition is a new opportunity, and you have to focus on your process and do it again, right? If you got that big yes, you can't sit back on your laurels of like, hey, this worked last time, right? I got a yes, and then just kind of phone it in. That was for those not watching the videos, me smoking a cigarette, if you couldn't tell locally, that's what I was doing, right? You got to try to carry that positive momentum into another yes, with a bigger and bolder audition. You can't just sit back, right? And if you do have a few no's at this point, that does not indicate that that next audition won't turn into a yes.

But you have to believe that and you have to make it true. And you have to be smart about what you're feeding your psyche. Please don't be checking those emails or looking at portals the morning of a big audition. That is not the moment to have another school in your head. And it can be really tough to bounce back from a no into another audition immediately following. I heard a number of stories in the green room about that. And I went, why did you check your email 10 minutes before your audition? That doesn't make any sense to me, right? And similar to that, in terms of what you'd be inputting yourself, I think that is obvious. And some people they go, Oh, I know I shouldn't have done that.

Why did I check my email 10 minutes before my audition, but not all of you are as smart when it comes to social media. So I'm going to say similarly, if you're on social media, maybe consider who you might need to mute or pause. If that idea that the other people are getting some yeses, if that idea is going to put you in a bad place, it might mean you need to remove some social media from your diet. You know, I know a lot of professional actors who do versions of that when they have trouble keeping their eyes on their own paper. And yes, that includes our MTCA private groups. We love it when all of you celebrate each other's successes. That is such a wonderful skill to be able to have and take into your life as an artist.

We love it. And we want to encourage you to do that if and when you can. But if you aren't able to be there right now, if you aren't able to necessarily celebrate everyone else's successes, when you don't have any yet yourself, and the idea of someone getting else someone else getting to school, maybe it's the school you're about to audition for next week, seeing them getting getting that makes you feel like you have no chance. When of course, let's be honest, we know that doesn't mean that we know that just because someone else got into the school doesn't mean there aren't still spots in the school. But if it makes you feel that way, get yourself out of that group, right? Or get yourself off social media entirely, if that's necessary for the next month.

I promise you, all of the addictive junk will still be there a month from now. I actually don't promise you TikTok will be there. It's probably still going to be there. Let's be honest. But again, I promise you that but social media in general, it will be there. Your text threads with your friends will be there, whatever social media means to you, wherever you're in taking that information, you might need to think, do I need to pause that? Is that helping me right now? And how can I potentially set myself up for the success as much as possible? You know, making a decision like that, tending to what you need psychologically, that isn't being soft or weak, it's being smart. You know yourself, you know what you can intake.

And you don't need to be a hero through this process. You need to be an actor through this process. And that involves a lot of sensitive, psychologically competitive work. So please honor that for yourself, in all the ways we've been talking about this month, and especially as you go into the crux of your auditions, as many of you have in these next couple weeks. I will see so many of you in Chicago and LA, and I'm really looking forward to it. I do want to give a little shout out and a thank you to all of the parents and students who came up to me in New York this weekend with kind words about the podcast. It really means a lot. Each and every one of you. Thank you for doing that. And for our junior and younger listeners, I'm excited to see many of you at Junior Intensive in a few weeks, both online and in person here in New York City.

And please keep your eyes peeled to your inboxes in the next few weeks for more details about your upcoming year with Mocs, our summer masterclass week, some additional details, and some really exciting stuff, some new stuff just for your class. We are always striving onward and upward here at MTCA. And I'm wishing all of that for you artists as well. So with that, let's bring on Rick Walters from Viterbo University.

[10:00] Charlie Murphy: Well, we are so excited to be joined by Rick Walters from Viterbo University. Rick has a BS in theater from the University of Evansville and MFA in acting from the University of Minnesota. He's acted all over the place and directed lots of different productions. He's taught acting voice and movement at the University of Minnesota and Indiana University at Indianapolis before becoming the executive artistic director of the Conservatory of the Performing Arts, where he oversees the musical theater and theater departments as well as the Department of Music at Viterbo University. I almost got through all of that, Rick, almost. Viterbo is located in La Crosse, Wisconsin. They take classes about 24 MTs, and they offer that BFA in MT, a BFA in acting, and we may talk about some more degrees. Rick, welcome on the show. How are you doing today?

[10:45] Rick Walters: I'm doing awesome. It's delightful to meet you, Charlie, and have a chance to connect with the students.

[10:51] Charlie Murphy: The delight is all mine. The delight is all mine. You're giving me a little bit of a sneak peek of what's going on there. The delight is all mine. You're giving me a little bit in the pre-show, but anything that you want the folks to know about your background in terms of, you know, give a very brief bio there, but just your journey to Viterbo or anything that you want in terms of a fun fact about you before we dive into the school?

[11:11] Rick Walters: Well, the one thing I always like to offer up is that I'm in my 24th year, and when I came to Viterbo University in beautiful La Crosse, Wisconsin, I had the idea that I was coming for two years. I was coming out of the profession. I was an actor at the Guthrie Theater for a number of years prior to coming here, and I was going to springboard to a bigger and fancier place, and I never did. And the reason I never did is because Viterbo University is a really beautifully uniquely situated program. There's a huge commitment here to the arts in general and theater and musical theater specifically, and fabulous facilities. And so I ended up staying, and I'm really glad that I did.

[11:57] Charlie Murphy: I'm sure as are they. Alright, well, so let's dive into Viterbo a little bit in terms of, you know, I'd love to talk about in your 24 years here, you know, what have you seen that is sort of makes up the essence of a Viterbo student? You know, maybe in contrast to other students, but really just in describing what you see like, hey, our students really tend to be this as human beings. What does that look like to you?

[12:21] Rick Walters: Our students tend to be innately curious and ambitious in the scope of what their interests are. I mean, we offer BFA programs in musical theater and in acting that are designed to help prepare young artists to make the transition into profession, to turn this into a professional career. But I would say, not every single one of our students, but many of our students have...

[12:50] Rick Walters: Ambitions and interests that stretch beyond performance; they're interested in becoming theater makers more broadly in the broader sense. And to that end, our program has been built to help support that, so students who come here have opportunities to minor in dance, minor in arts management, minor in playwriting or design and technical production, and stage management, and so forth. Essentially, in this program, the way I describe it is students have an opportunity to step out of bounds. Yeah, so there's the thing that you've come here for, and then there's the thing or things that may ultimately be of interest to you. Philosophically, as a program, our faculty are big supporters of the idea that these are formative four years in college. Yeah, and it's an opportunity to grow and to stretch and to test ideas and to ultimately step out of bounds.

[13:51] Charlie Murphy: Well, let's talk a little bit about what those inbounds curriculum look like. So you definitely want to hear more about the optionality within the program. But, you know, if I'm a BFA MT major from a BFA actor, what do those four years of curriculum look like in terms of first, second, third, fourth year and sort of what my progression will be?

[14:08] Rick Walters: Well, you will have, first, you'll have acting, singing, dancing, all of those four years. The curriculum in terms of the technique work is front-loaded, we call it, so that you, because we're a liberal arts institution, you will also be taking some general education coursework as well. So you have a very well-rounded experience academically, but the vast majority of those courses end up being taken in the back half of the junior and the senior year because we are front-loading acting, singing, and dance. On the musical theater side, we have a very robust voice program. We have four dedicated full-time faculty members who are specific to musical theater, two full-time coaches, and an accompanist just to give you a sense of the intensity and the commitment to that. Voice or musical theater students are taking two voice lessons every week for every semester that they're here.

[15:08] Charlie Murphy: Two a week?

[15:09] Rick Walters: Yeah, and in addition, there's one-on-one with their voice faculty member, and then they're meeting once a week with their coach accompanist. So that's really three half-hour sessions one-on-one every week, three private lessons a week. That is not every school as even do they say you have three private one. That's really cool.

[15:30] Rick Walters: Yeah, I was going to say on the dance side of it, we have a level dance program, so students are required at a minimum to take six semesters of dance. Most musical theater students are taking twice that, and our faculty are very well equipped to meet the students where they are. So they do a dance placement exam literally on the Sunday before classes start on Monday in the fall. They get into the studio, and they put them through the paces. It's a fun kind of get-to-know-you experience, and from that, the faculty will make recommendations as to where they should start. If they need to start at fundamentals level, they'll start there. If they need to start higher up in ballet, tap, jazz, modern, what have you, then that advice will be offered up, and we'll work with the students on that.

[16:20] Charlie Murphy: Do you feel like is there a discipline of the three that either internally that you sort of as your goal or externally in terms of what you think your students are known for where Viterbo sort of excels or pops? You know, is it voice, acting, dance? Is there one that sort of lifts above the others?

[16:35] Rick Walters: I would say, generally, the short answer to that is in one way, no, but in another way, I would say we are putting a strong emphasis on acting and voice. Our dance program is robust, but we have geared the dance program in a way that we can accommodate a student who has never danced before, and we can help advance and improve a student who's been dancing since they could walk.

[17:04] Charlie Murphy: I love it. I love that you also were talking about the stepping out of bounds in terms of options within the sort of theater and or the arts world. Do you have a lot of students looking at minors and doing other academic pursuits outside of the... So talk to me about both of those, but what you know, the idea of getting a psych minor or maybe even a psych double major, that kind of thing, how possible that is then versus also doing additional dance or other things that they could do.

[17:29] Rick Walters: Sure, we have a lot of students who pursue minors. Many of them will choose a minor that's under the umbrella of the Conservatory, and those are the ones I named with dance, arts admin, and so forth, playwriting. But we have students who pursue minors in psychology, English, history, political science. So if you have an interest in an ambition to stretch out beyond the theater realm, that's here for you too. Minors are doable. On the musical theater side, it can be really tight. Occasionally, we'll get students asking about whether or not they could double major. I'm going to say you could do anything you have time and money for, but double majoring would more than likely take, you know, five years at a minimum. And so we wouldn't necessarily say no to that, but we would advise there are potentially other pathways.

[18:25] Charlie Murphy: I'd love to hear about with the actors and the MTs, sort of how does the crossover work in terms of do they take classes together? When you're talking like an acting class, do they audition for shows together? How much sort of separation or combination is there in the act?

[18:39] Rick Walters: Well, those cohorts come together. They begin together in the first year. They are taking the two-part, two-semester fundamentals of acting sequence together. Then they are taking text analysis together, and there are several that in the sophomore year they're combined as well. In the first level of scene study, in the second half of sophomore year, they start to diverge a bit as the musical theater majors move into musical theater scene study, and acting majors move into the second semester of advanced scene study. And so they begin together; they part ways in some classes in the middle of the program. They come back together in the senior year as part of a two-semester sequence that begins with the audition business of theater class in the fall and the showcase class in the spring.

[19:29] Charlie Murphy: Well, that's perfect. It's perfectly as a minute next question. I'd love to hear both about the showcase, but then also just about all that you do to sort of prepare them for the business of the business in terms of their launch. So I'd love to hear about that senior year and then the showcase itself.

[19:41] Rick Walters: Sure. Well, I'm going to start before a little bit before we get to the senior year because that preparation is laced throughout the program. So we have a really robust commitment to bringing in guest artists. So we bring in... We've had eight different artists here on campus this fall. We have another five or six lined up for the spring semester. So connecting to the business and shaping your understanding of the business is a big important part of that, and we do that by putting our students in contact with professional artists. Yeah, so we have casting agents, and we have directors and actors. Sometimes we'll have some of our own alums who are on national tours who come within striking distance, and they come in and talk with the students. So there's that aspect of developing industry awareness and connection.

[20:36] When you get to the senior year, we have a fall class called the audition business of theater that covers a wide range of things. It includes one of the major projects, which is a research project based upon the individual student's interest in terms of where they want to go, where they see themselves going, what marketplace. Some of the students want to take off for New York; some are more interested in Chicago or other smaller market areas, and so their research is tailored to what their ambition and what their initial steps will be. That research includes, you know, what's the cost of living? Who are the people in that marketplace that I need to be aware of and potentially in contact with?

Building the practical plan on how you're going to find a place to live, how you're going to make yourself aware of transportation, the whole shot of setting yourself up in a particular location. That course also deals with audition material, obviously. It deals with agency; it deals with a whole range of industry-related activities, and it even includes some basic... Although we are not certified public accountants here, we attend to basic tax as it relates to doing your taxes as an artist.

[22:08] Charlie Murphy: That is all preparatory for a showcase.

[22:12] Rick Walters: Building the showcase that takes place in the spring semester. Our showcase is a digital showcase; like many schools, we pivoted to that during COVID, and it has proved to be successful. It has a distribution list of over 200 agents and casting people across markets in the United States, and it's augmented somewhat each year based on the research that students are doing about marketplaces they want to go to.

[22:40] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, I mean, like maybe they'll take a trip to Chicago or like that. Is that what you mean by augment?

[22:46] Rick Walters: Yes, yes. So if there's somebody not already on our standard distribution list and the student comes up with a name and they're targeting this person, that person goes on the list too.

[22:55] Charlie Murphy: I love it. And where do you find that most of your students end up right after school? Do they all head right to New York? Do some of them head to the place in Wisconsin? Do people head to Chicago, LA? What sort of feels like the diaspora at all?

[23:11] Rick Walters: Sure. I would say in every year it's a little bit different. We get a complement of students who graduate who, you know, a handful who would go straight to New York. We have a fair number who end up on cruise ships or working at Disney. Had that happened over time? We have a large complement of alums in Chicago, in the Chicago area that have been working there for a long time, and so that becomes appealing to some of our graduates. And then there are a few that opt for smaller markets like Minneapolis, Atlanta, and so forth. So it's a little bit different every year.

[23:44] Rick Walters: One thing we missed in the... We should do the breakdown of the school itself. I'd love to hear a little bit about just like the campus life. So what is the experience of walking around Viterbo and sort of what are my options outside of the academic options I get outside of the theater school? What else would I get up to if I'm, you know, a young person attending college?

[24:00] Rick Walters: Well, there's a very active campus life here. I should give some context for this: Viterbo is a small private liberal arts school of about 2,000 undergraduates, and in that context, you have a theater and musical theater program with a hundred majors and 14 full-time faculty members and three beautiful theater spaces. So we're a big program in particular for a university of this size, but this is a very active campus. There are sports activities here on campus: lacrosse. Wisconsin is a beautiful small city; it's located in what's known as the Driftless region of the United States, which is really geographically significant. So for anybody who's listening and taking that in, if you're curious, Google "driftless," and you can check out terrain-wise.

There is skiing, there is hiking, there is biking, there are rivers, there are mountains, and so forth. A very active arts community here in La Crosse, Wisconsin, the Pump House Regional Arts Center, and it is one of those. The Weber Center for the Performing Arts, which is actually one of our additional performance venues for Viterbo University, is in downtown, and it's home to the La Crosse Community Theater. Also a very, very robust and well-funded community theater. So it's a small professional theater practicality, so there's lots to do in La Crosse, Wisconsin.

[25:35] Charlie Murphy: But is there lacrosse to be played, or is that just... I'm sorry, is there lacrosse?

[26:10] Rick Walters: They will qualify for up to $20,000 per year. So I would say the vast majority of our theater and musical theater students are awarded somewhere between $16,000 and $20,000 per year from admissions, right off the bat. An acting and musical theater major additionally would get somewhere in at about $2,000 on top of that. If they got a $20,000 award and $2,000 through the conservatory, their discount from the beginning would be $22,000. Yeah, which leaves about $10,000 if we're doing that math, and we're always doing our best there.

[26:57] Charlie Murphy: Love that. Let's talk a little bit about how many of your students come from the Wisconsin area, you know, from Wisconsin itself and sort of the broader upper Midwest, I guess is how to describe the drinks for this reason. And then how many from across the country and around the world?

[27:13] Rick Walters: I would say somewhere in the vicinity of about 30 to 35% of the students are from Wisconsin in the upper Midwest, and the rest of the students are from across the country. We audition nationwide. We're a member of what the National Unified Audition consortium of schools. So we have a number of students from Texas, Florida, out West in California, out East in Boston. So they come far and wide.

[27:34] Charlie Murphy: And when you're having those conversations with students, so, you know, knowing you're doing Unifieds, and of course, a lot of the students are doing a lot of schools. When you're having those conversations with students who you've accepted and who are sort of parsing their many acceptances down, what do you find makes them end up deciding, you know what, I am going to go to Viterbo, I'm going to sign on the dotted line? And then if you know, is there something that you find out that makes them go, you know what, it was between you and someone else, and I'm going with someone else? Do you have a sense of why they choose and don't choose your school?

[28:31] Rick Walters: Yeah, I do. I think largely, the students who opt for us do it for two reasons. One, because they want a robust program, but they want to be located in a smaller school with a more intimate feeling. I think that matters a lot to the students who end up choosing us. And I think those are probably the two biggest reasons. I think those who end up, you know, just for example, Roosevelt University in Chicago is another one of the unified schools. I've been friends with faculty there over the years, and so we used to joke with one another if you don't go to Roosevelt, you should come to Viterbo and vice versa. Most of it, you think, based on student population size, the difference there.

[29:18] Rick Walters: Based on student population size, but I offer that up as an example because Roosevelt is in a high-rise building in downtown Chicago. Totally different experience. And that's a very different experience, and that's the right program for some students, and it's the wrong program for some students, you know? And so the sense of feeling like you are in an environment where you're comfortable, where you’re safe, where you feel like you can grow and invest in the work that you need to do in order to be prepared to ultimately go to the big city, those are the students that I think find Viterbo most attractive.

[29:57] Charlie Murphy: Yep, well said. All right, well, we're going to take a short break, and on the back end, we'll dive a little bit into the audition and admission process, so we're back in a flash.

[30:05] Rick Walters: Cool, thanks.

[30:06] Charlie Murphy: All right, we're back with the great Rick Walters from Viterbo University, and we've not yet made the joke about, I think this is the most mispronounced name. I'm sure I'll do something in the intro of schools when people say, I got to walk in for, and they look at me, I'm like, is it Viterbo, because they don't want to say what Viterbo is.

[30:24] Rick Walters: What they said was Viterbo.

[30:25] Charlie Murphy: Viterbo.

[30:26] Rick Walters: Viterbo.

[30:27] Charlie Murphy: Viterbo.

[30:28] Rick Walters: You gave me a, yeah, you gave me a, how do you, what's your sort of pronunciation guide on how you pronounce it?

[30:33] Rick Walters: So first of all, let's clarify that the university is named after a city in Italy, a small city in Italy, and it's, so if you say with a little sense of Italian, you say Viterbo.

[30:44] Charlie Murphy: Viterbo.

[30:45] Rick Walters: Viterbo.

[30:46] Charlie Murphy: Okay, so we're back with Rick Walters from Viterbo University. For every student out there who's been inclined to say Viterbo, that is exactly the way I pronounced it when I interviewed for a job here.

[31:01] Rick Walters: So basically you're saying you'll get the job, you'll book it if you say Viterbo.

[31:04] Charlie Murphy: That's right. All right, but we're looking at the audition and admission process, and other than mispronouncing the name, what are you sort of looking for when a student walks in the room? You're obviously going to make an artistic decision of a yes or no when a student walks in. I'd love to, I'd actually love to start with a pre-screened video and then we'll get to the live audition. But when you're looking through pre-screened videos, what makes someone turn into a yes? And then maybe we'll move on to that question of when they're live in the room.

[31:25] Rick Walters: Well first, let me offer this, because one of the things that's different about the way we utilize Accepted, that platform, is we do not use it actually to pre-screen. We use it more like a filing cabinet. A post-screen. So that is a required part of the application process, but if you apply to us and submit your, what you understand to be pre-screened, we will still want to see you live. So there's that. But when we are looking at either the videos, or at the person who walks in the door, we're fundamentally, you know, yes, we are looking for the raw material of a student who, if they're interested in musical theater, can sing, dance, and act, or has the capacity to develop that facility. We're also looking for somebody who's innately curious, comfortable in their own skin, and who knows why they're drawn to this as a career.

[32:36] Rick Walters: Beyond the fact that they might want to work on Broadway someday. I think, great, that you want to work on Broadway someday, but one of the things that we're interested in is helping develop young artists who have the skills to make a sustainable career.

[32:53] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. I think that all makes a lot of sense, and I think is clear enough to think to an actor. If I were the parent of a student listening to this, and I'm going, oof, okay, but I'm walking in and singing two songs and a monologue, or whatever. How am I showing off my innate curiosity? My comfort in my body? You know, some of these things, again, we may talk about in the interview portion of the adjustment, but basically, how are you sniffing for, this student is innately curious, in the audition portion itself?

[33:21] Rick Walters: Yeah. Well, what are the caliber of questions are they asking? That's a big tip, I think, into how thoughtful a student has been about this as the next step of their life.

[33:37] Charlie Murphy: And when you say questions they're asking, you mean in the interview portion, when you say, hey, you have questions for us?

[33:41] Rick Walters: In the interview portion, things that they will ask of us. Oftentimes, a student will say, well, how many shows do you do? Well, okay, I can tell you about that, but what else are you curious about? What beyond the superficial is on your mind as it relates to this big decision that you have to make as a soon-to-be-college student, right? So I'm curious about that. I mean, I will also back up and say, there isn't a right way to do this.

[34:09] Rick Walters: Sure. Mentally be yourself, be who you are in the preparation that you have made, do your stuff, and then sit down and get to know us. And let us see you. And you're describing an audition experience, and I'd love to maybe talk a little bit about, you mentioned some of the different places where people can meet you, like you guys participated in Pittsburgh Unifieds this year, there's the Munifieds of the world, there's New York, Chicago, and LA, those are sort of national Unifieds. What we really normally mean when we say Unifieds, and that word is now becoming a little confusing to people with what's a Unifieds and what's not a Unifieds. But what do those audition experiences, I guess, how do they differ in terms of both?

You don't need to describe to me the mechanical differences between Pittsburgh and a National Unifieds, but how does it work in terms of the difference between your involvement and like how they should contact or not contact you when you have a Pittsburgh Unifieds versus a Chicago Unifieds?

[35:09] Rick Walters: This was our first year to connect with Pittsburgh. And so we did that through the virtual channels, had a really wonderful response. I think there were 300-ish students there. We ended up having 30 of them apply to the school and that's a really good response rate. So really like that. One of the fundamental differences is that Pittsburgh comes very early in the cycle. In my experience over the years, there are a lot of students are still very much in process in terms of figuring out where they want to go and nobody really gets down to it until after Unifieds are complete in February. So the Pittsburgh students and some of the other early fall that we attend to, some of those require a follow-up callback kind of audition experience.

And so this year with Pittsburgh, as an example, we reached out to the students that we wanted to call back and invited them because we didn't get to meet them face-to-face and we'd like to get in a room with them. We invited them to come either to campus or to visit us in New York, Chicago, or LA.

[36:24] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, that's basically the fundamental difference I was trying to speak to was if you're looking for innate curiosity and that means an interview and it means ideally sitting across the table live, though potentially I guess that could happen on Zoom as well, but having that experience of going, it is a different experience you're getting in Chicago where you're sitting across the table actually from you versus potentially a more consortium, you know, value to both of them, but just to hear yes, I guess that there's callbacks. And from a student perspective, I think that's, it can be a little daunting after an early audition if they're doing an audition in 2024, knowing they're going to have to do more in 2025 and what that follow-up might be, might not be. The timing of it, I think it can just be a little confusing to parents and students.

[37:04] Rick Walters: Yeah, indeed. Let's talk a little bit about for you, the academic versus artistic sides of things. So if you like a student artistically, how does it then work with the academic? Have they already passed everything they need to do academically by the time you're seeing them? Do you have to interact with the Office of Admissions? How does it work in terms of getting both of those sort of rubber stamps for an in?

[37:27] Rick Walters: Sure. We work really closely with our Office of Admissions. A primary consideration is that a student has to be admitted academically before we can accept them into the program. We do sometimes do tentative acceptances. For example, if we meet a student as a walk-in in Chicago, we may tentatively offer them a place in the program pending admission. But more often, students have already been academically admitted to the university before they're admitted to the program.

[38:03] Charlie Murphy: And then do you look at any of those? Do you see the academic application in terms of essays and grades and SATs? Does that factor in for you in the artistic decision?

[38:13] Rick Walters: Typically we will see GPA. We used to see ACT or SAT scores, although we have gone test-optional since COVID like a lot of other institutions, so we're not looking at those numbers anymore really because not everybody is supplying them. So we're looking at their GPA.

[38:31] Rick Walters: We're looking at their academic award because that gives us a sense of where and how the admissions office has screened them and placed them. And so those things come into some consideration, but the artistic potential of a student is paramount. And so we will have a student occasionally whose high school GPA was fine, but it wasn't great. But that doesn't become a deal breaker, if that makes sense.

[39:03] Charlie Murphy: Totally makes sense. I'd love to hear about just what else you think about as you're filling out a class, as you're filling out the 24. And again, if you want to speak a little too, I know you might accept more than 24 to ideally yield 24. I know there's a little bit of magic always to making that work. But what are you thinking about in terms of, are you conscious of a gender balance of height and racial diversity and size balance and diversity of ability? How are you thinking about this cohort that I'm going to put together of these 24 people? Obviously, artistic talent is a big factor, but I know that's not the only factor that you're putting together. So how does that work for you in terms of how you think about?

[39:40] Rick Walters: I'd say gender balance is always part of the equation as we're trying to balance out classes. That is challenging because for years now, the scales are tipped even in the audition process, where there are so many more young women who are out there auditioning. So getting a 50-50 split between genders is challenging. So we're looking at that for sure. We are looking at racial balance to the degree that there's the opportunity to do so. But that said, I think the primary thing for us is that we're interested in individuals and the uniqueness of individuals. Sometimes you will hear without naming any program in particular, but there are some programs who are geared towards a particular aspect of the industry, whether that's they want actor, singer, dancer, triple threats only. Ours is more open than that. And so we have a wide range of students with different personalities, different body shapes, and it's a unique group.

[41:03] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. Can you tell me a little bit about how it works for you in terms of those initial offers, the potential yield, and then the wait list? So what does that look like? I mean, if you have a sense of numbers, that's great. But just in terms of the process for you of like, how many you accept and then how you would go to the wait list or how that would work for you?

[41:18] Rick Walters: Well, on the musical theater side of it, I'll offer that as an example. I would say in the last several years, we're looking at probably two to 250 applicants to the university. Those who actually applied to the university. And from that, the yield would be, if we take 24, the yield is approximately, what is that? 10%.

[41:43] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. But then how many of those people might end up on a wait list and or how does, I love to speak a little toward like, how does that wait list interaction work for you in terms of, you know, are they staying in contact with you? Are you expecting contact of your wait list? How does that work in terms of-

[41:57] Rick Walters: If we place a student on the wait list, then in the initial email communication that we send out to that student, we will set a date by which we will report back to them essentially with a status update. So if we're looking deep in the process and we're making our first round of offers, usually mid to late February, we will start to follow up with wait list people by mid-March.

[42:26] Charlie Murphy: Yep. And give them an update. We may not be able, we may or we may not be able to say, yes, you're in off the wait list by that time, but we certainly will give them an update because we know there's a lot weighing on that.

[42:41] Rick Walters: Yeah, there's a lot weighing on that, that's right. I mentioned it, but are you guys using any online, you mentioned online Pittsburgh Unified, are you using any online callbacks or online sort of initial auditions for you in terms of alongside your on-campus and unified options?

[42:58] Rick Walters: We do two virtual options that we make available. In fact, we just had one last Saturday, if I'm remembering right, the 7th of December. As you listen to this, that's like six Saturdays ago, but it's fine.

[43:05] Charlie Murphy: Right. So we make that available to students because there are students nationwide who don't have the resources to get up and travel. So I think that's a useful way to go.

[43:19] Rick Walters: Yep. Totally makes sense. I think two more questions before we wrap up here, and I know we want to try to get you out here on time, but I'd love to hear just from a broader, more holistic perspective, like as you're 24 years in, to your time with Viterbo, what is the ambition for the program as it continues to grow? How do you see, if you were to set, hey, Viterbo 10 years from now is going to look like what on the landscape of musical theater schools, right? Is it maintaining a place? Is it growing in a certain area? What is the goal for how you could see Viterbo continuing to grow?

[44:01] Rick Walters: That's a great question. I'm just going to jump in here and say that one of the most exciting things, conversations that's come up here just this semester is that we have, Viterbo launched a speech language pathology degree here, both undergraduate and opportunity to pursue a master's degree. There's some very exciting new faculty on this campus, and we are beginning to have collaborations with them. One of the things that I'm hopeful for is that we are going to come up with a, I'm going to call it, just as an example, placeholder of 4 plus 1 or 4 plus 2 as it relates to vocal training. And this would pertain to both musical theater and or music majors in the musical.

[44:43] Charlie Murphy: You mean vocal pedagogy or an SLP specifically?

[44:46] Rick Walters: Well, it's vocal pedagogy. Where I think this will end up going potentially is that you could go through four years and get a BFA in musical theater. And alongside that, be taking courses that relate to speech language pathology if you wanted to have the option. To continue on to get a master's in speech language pathology, coming at it as an artist into the clinical realm, there's some very interesting career pathways that could open for people in that way. So we're having some very exciting conversations about what that might look like. Very, very early, but there's a lot of enthusiasm from both departments about that collaboration.

[45:34] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, I love it. It's really cool. I'd love to speak just a little bit to, I've already mentioned some of the parent listeners. We have a lot of, a decent percentage of our listeners are parents of children who are going through this process. In your years interacting with them, do you have any advice for the parents as they sort of guide their children through this process, whether they're early in the process and just looking at schools or whether they're ultimately deciding which school to go to?

[45:55] Rick Walters: I do. My number one comment is breathe. Nobody works harder to get into school than a student who's trying to get into a performance program, acting or musical theater. My ultimate respect goes to the families and the students who are entering that gauntlet. I think my advice would be this. You can't know everything about every school all at once. You're going to make your broad stroke application, wait and see which schools indicate that they want you, and then put your energies behind that short list. Get to as many of those campuses as you can afford to get to because there are lots of talented students out there and there are lots of good programs out there, but which one is the right fit? Trust your gut on that.

[47:04] Also, finally, I think this is, in some ways, it's more for the student because it's the student more often who's in the room with the college rep, is understand that you are interviewing us.

[47:17] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. It's not just that we're interviewing you. You have a big say in this.

[47:23] Rick Walters: Yeah. It's so well said and goes back to the first thing you're saying. It is about the question of timing. They spend over a year just applying to be seen and preparing sometimes, and so then to remind themselves that, hey, at the end of this process of advice I've given before in the podcast, in this process, you really are the customer who gets to decide to put the deposit down at one school. It's very hard to hold on to that when you're in the January, February moment. You're going, somebody just take me, please.

[47:49] Charlie Murphy: Somebody take me to one school.

[47:49] Rick Walters: Right. No, I totally get that, but hold on to your own agency and trust your instinct as you feel the vibe of the person sitting across the table from you in the room or the people. One of the most fascinating things about the whole unified experience in particular, where a student can go from one room to another, to another, to another, and hit seven or ten of those in one day, is you get the juxtaposition of all of these different vibes, if you will, back to back, and very different cultures, very different approaches. Which one feels like the place for you.

[48:42] Charlie Murphy: It's so well said. Good advice for life, I feel like, if you can just try to stay in the moment of where you are. Right now, I'm in this place, and then I'll put my energy into this place, as opposed to jumping ahead to the next thing.

[48:48] Rick Walters: That's great. If people do want more information on Viterbo, where would you recommend that they check things out? Do you like them going to social media? Do you like them going to the website or other places where they should be reaching out for more information?

[49:00] Rick Walters: Sure. They're all of the above right there. I'd say our website is a good starting place. If you go to Google Viterbo University, do a site search for theater and musical theater, there's a tab there for audition and interview process that will give you comprehensive information about what that process looks like for us. We also have very active and student-driven social media platforms from Instagram, TikTok, and so forth. By the time you're listening to this, maybe not TikTok anymore. We'll find out.

[49:38] Charlie Murphy: By the time they're listening, it may not be TikTok.

[49:38] Rick Walters: It may not be TikTok. That's right. Instagram seems like it may be around for a little bit. There's good content there. If they want to get content that helps them get a sense of who the Viterbo student is and what that life is like, that's a good resource.

[49:56] Charlie Murphy: I love it. Rick, thank you so much for the time today. This was so fun getting to chat with you.

[50:01] Rick Walters: Awesome. Thanks, Charlie, for the opportunity.

[50:12] Charlie Murphy: Yes, yes, yes. I hope you enjoyed that interview with Rick. I jotted down a takeaway about the size of school within the school as like a proportion of the campus, just like highlighting how small the school of Viterbo is. But then I just couldn't do it. I just couldn't physically do another takeaway about school size. For our regular listeners, you have heard me talk about size differences in campus aesthetics too much for one lifetime, but I'm not going to do it this time. I did make a note that I thought would be helpful to talk about in a way that I don't always take these notes, which is actually, I made a note pointing out how typical an answer Rick gave was. In that way that we don't always tend to remember all of the good luck or the, hey, I caught the subway in just a normal way.

We always remember when it's, I just missed it. Sometimes I'll spend time pointing out what is specific and unique about schools in terms of what is odd, but I don't always talk about some of the questions in the more typical fashion. So I just want to say, listening back to Rick's answer about the relationships with academics of an application, if you can remember that answer, is probably, that's probably right down the middle for a BFA program in terms of the kind of relationship they tend to have, right? And a helpful guide in general, when you're not sure, if you haven't listened to a podcast episode, that's a good kind of starting off place of how a lot of these BFAs are, right? We'll try to point out those exceptions where academics might matter a really.

[52:21] Charlie Murphy: It was just a little eyebrow raise, kind of like, I see you, right? That was what he was trying to say, right? And for him, that would likely factor in just as much as like any other interesting fact about me, like being a varsity athlete or interesting volunteer work or something that's on your resume. It's like, oh, that's a fun fact, a really good SAT or great grades, right? In the same way that, you know, really low grades might be a not fun fact, right? It wouldn't be the reason that you would get into the artistic portion of a BFA, but it doesn't mean that they're never going to interact with any part of it. There likely is some awareness, and there could be some discussion. It could be one of the reasons they say, hey, what kind of schools are you looking at?

They're interested in where your level of academics are in terms of what you want to pursue at the college level. And again, I will actually ask this question of most of these schools, so you don't have to guess when we're talking about our podcast schools, right? You will get to know the specifics, because I will ask a version of this question, basically, to everyone. But if you don't know, it's a pretty good baseline, and I think it is a really typical relationship that schools will have. And then it'll differ here and there, because of course, every school is unique and different in this process.

[53:21] Charlie Murphy: I also really like the example Rick gave of how to use, or how they use, I should say, the pre-screen as a filing cabinet, right? It's what he called it, right? What we affectionately call a post-screen sometimes. We have the pre-screen, and sometimes it's called the post-screen, right? Just another way that schools can use it. There's another example of how the pre-screen can be used differently, right? Some talk about it at the beginning as a pre-screen, and then at the end, again, as a final cull down, right? When they pre-screen to see a certain number of people, then they see the callbacks, and then they watch the videos again, right? But it's all the more reason for our juniors and younger listeners to really make sure they are putting on video what is most representative of their best work, right?

Of course, the live callback is so important, and most often, that's where you do the actual booking of the job, just like a professional. You're going to book it in the callback, but you don't want to think of that pre-screen as just like a simple threshold pass of talent, right? Even though, and this is why I say this, some schools will talk about it that way, and they're not wrong for themselves. Some schools will use it that way. Some schools will do, hey, we're just looking to make sure there's a level of talent there, and then it's really going to be about the callback, right? But many schools will do some different version of what Rick is talking about, whether it's a filing cabinet or a post-screen, whether they'll watch it or not, right?

Some will watch it many times. I mean, some professors you've heard talk about they'll watch it 10 times throughout the process for someone they're going to accept, and for many, it may be the last thing they'll see of your work. Many, but not all. Some, again, never watch it again after they see it once, and then it's only about the live audition, right? But the point is, you want to turn in something you're really proud of, right? And of course, hopefully, what's hard part about that is hopefully you will keep growing beyond the work that you do in September and October whenever you turn in your pre-screen. Hopefully you will keep growing in the months to come. So it's not to say that it has to be your final work, but you want to think of that as work that you are proud to show these schools and that you would feel really good about if it is the last thing they view, right?

[55:04] Charlie Murphy: You know, if I had the choice and I could make it a fiat that everyone would stop calling it a pre-screen at all and would just call it a video audition, I would do that for you. I would love to do that for you because that's what it is. It's what it's become, right? And the live audition is a callback audition. Many schools will call that a callback audition, right? But pre-screen is kind of what it was when it was invented, and you know, if it was only a couple schools that were doing it, and they were really just using it as a pretty simple call down early on, right? And we've just kind of kept calling it that, or they've kept calling it that. But when you're talking about 75% of people aren't getting a callback, or when you're talking about it being the final thing that's being viewed, it's much more than something that's just like preliminary.

And I think when you hear the word pre-screen, you think like preliminary screen, and that pre, I think, is not helpful there. I think you want to think of it, this is my video audition for the school, and then I hope that I get a callback. But like with so many parts of this process, you know, the more that schools try to make it unified, I think often in a genuine attempt to help you, the more that it can be a little bit confusing, right? Just because a bunch of schools agree to something called the common pre-screen, which I think was a net positive, they were really trying to help you, that doesn't mean they all agree to use the common pre-screen in the same way, right? It really can make your head spin, and it really, I think, makes families feel like, hey, is anyone looking out for me in this process?

Seems like all these schools are looking out for themselves, which of course they are, right? But in some of the ways that schools will try to look out for you, they'll try to help, they actually end up making it harder, right? So a school that's saying to themselves, you know, we don't necessarily, we know that these students don't know how to choreograph for themselves, and you don't necessarily have to be a choreographer, so we'll give you this dance, we'll give you this dance that you can film, why don't you just use this for our school? Even though that seems like it's actually a really helpful impulse, what it actually means for most of our students is that they've just added to their workload instead of taking away from their workload, because they aren't auditioning for only one school, and they have to film that pre-screen dance, and then their own self-choreographed pre-screen dance stuff, right?

And then, you know, sometimes schools aren't trying to help too. Sometimes with those added essays, or those added quick video statements, they are trying to get something organic and specific to their school, and they think to themselves, it's no big deal, it's just a couple minutes, just throw something on video. But of course that does take a lot of time, and when you add it up over the course of 20 schools, some of you have more than 20 schools, it can really be a lot. So I know that, and I heard from a lot of our students this week, just kind of about the inflation of their school list as this process goes, and how difficult navigating all those intricacies are, and how they were maybe feeling a little bit burnt, a bit of burnout, and I just, my heart really goes out to them.

But I do think this is where I always say like, okay, try to keep your eyes on the prize, try to focus on what's most important at any given time, and right now, you know what's most important to you is your live auditions, and walking into those actual rooms for people who are listening to this six months from now, it may be about the pre-screens themselves, or where you are, but you got to kind of keep where you are in the process, and what you can actually do, and if you can do that, it will, it will be really helpful to you to be able to go, I'm doing this, and now I'm doing this, I'm not, I'm doing this, as opposed to trying to eat the whole elephant at once, just because that's where I think people start getting overwhelmed, is when they, when they look at the whole process, and god, there's still so much more to do, and that's when you got to get a little overwhelmed.

[58:18] Charlie Murphy: Okay, and that brings me around to my last takeaway, after going on quite a tangent there, which is just Rick talking about staying where you are in the moment of this process, that's where I was, I think, trying to get to there. I think it is such good advice, you know, the idea of staying present as an actor in general, it is one of the hardest and most important things you can do, but can I stay where I am, and really be in this audition for this school right now, not worrying about the end result of am I accepted, and will I attend, but just being on this date, here am I, I'm on this date, I'm revealing my best self, and I'm discovering more about who these humans behind the table are, that is hard, right, and like we talked about in the intro, it's really hard not to start jumping ahead based on what people behind the table say, you know, maybe you go to a walk-in school, and they give you incredibly positive feedback, and then a scheduled audition says next to nothing, that is very typical, well, it isn't your job to worry about any of that right now, you take the positive momentum where you can, into your next audition, and just have another great audition, and the truth is, though this isn't the most important thing, the truth is, what you hear from a school behind the table, it's almost completely meaningless in terms of the words that they say, that doesn't mean if someone offers you admission on the spot, it's meaningless, of course not, right, but there is much more variance from school to school than there is in what they say student to student, right, that's a little bit confusing, but schools that are really warm and give a hard sell, they likely are warm and give a hard sell a lot, schools that are pretty reserved behind the table are likely just schools that are pretty reserved behind the table, that doesn't mean you're definitely into the first or out on the second, and of course it doesn't mean the reverse as well, right, I often tell the story of Lisey, one of my first students, and now one of our amazing veteran song coaches, also friend of the pod, Lisey Jordan this is, Lisey assured me that she wasn't going to get into Ithaca because she was in and out so fast in her audition, and they said almost nothing to her compared to some of these other schools that chatted with her a lot and spent a lot of time with her, gave her some redirects, lots of interview questions, you know, and of course more time is generally a good thing, it's not a bad sign, you know, in the aggregate, but plenty of schools just don't operate that way, and for that year Ithaca was not operating that way, and of course Lisey ended up getting into Ithaca with a big scholarship and attending Ithaca, but for her that was a difficult audition to bounce back from, that was me psychologically kind of, and I didn't know that she got into Ithaca, but it was like on to the next, okay, so that one didn't feel so great because you didn't get a lot of positive feedback, right, and that's the beautiful part about this process, unlike some professional auditions where you may never really hear either way, is that you will have at some point in this process, you will have a point that you've heard from all of your schools and you're going to get to make a decision, right, you're going to hear a yes or a no or a wait list, or God forbid you might temporarily hear one of those in the mix, you're in the pool of consideration, swimming there in despair, right, but it will lead to one of those answers eventually of a yes, a no, or a wait list, right, you will actually get that feedback coming to you that professional actors don't always get, so once all your auditions are over, it's great to parse through that, and then you can even go back and go, I didn't like that she wasn't as nice to me, or he was really nice, and that's a positive thing, but don't get too caught up in that now, it's not helpful to you in this moment to get too much spinning of what were the exact words, right, that's good advice for any phase of this process, but it's most important at this moment when we're talking about your psychological competitiveness, it's easy to look back on what you could have done differently with your pre-screens, your applications, and start second-guessing yourself, and here I am, I gave a little takeaway about pre-screens a second ago, and it's easy to look forward to what must be going to happen based on the difference between good job and excellent job from different schools, right, but that's not your job right now, I like using your job as an analogy because it's what Solveye keeps bringing home from 3k, she talks about like, this is my job, this is your job, that's not your job, they're all supposed to know and do their jobs, but you too, even at 18, you're supposed to know and do your job, right, you know what your job is, your job is to keep showing up for yourself, it's to keep believing in yourself, it's to keep putting your best foot forward, keep actively trying to have fun, which as we always talk about is not a simple thing, and takes bravery to play and let your work stay alive and spontaneous in the moment, so I wish that for all of you.

[1:02:17] Charlie Murphy: Okay, let's wrap there on another episode of Mapping the College Edition, produced by Megan Courtier and Kelly Prendergast, follow us on all the socials where you're going to be impressed by the great work of Jordan Rice, all three of those MTCA alum, of course, and check us out at mtca.com for information on all of your individual coaching needs. To my young artists out there mapping their journeys, I'm going to make a change to this podcast going forward, for the first few seasons, I picked out something fun or funny from this week's episode and I put in his little palette cleanser at the end, but I want to experiment with something different, I just listening, I was like, why am I doing that and not this, so I want to try to end with a little mantra for your journey, we always get a little bit super serious in January and February in these moments, so I'm not sold exactly what this mantra is, I'm not sure we're going to keep this forever, but we're going to try it out and here's a version of it that I want to try, so this is rough draft number one of this work in progress, to my young artists out there mapping their journeys, please trust that you are enough, just as you are in this moment, you will be such a great asset to the right school, just as you are right now in your journey, now keep striving, keep striving for presentness, for vulnerability, for joy and to discover more of your authentic artistry and to share that artistry with these fellow artists behind the table, who are also still discovering their own fallible artistic selves and please try to have fun along the way, we'll catch you next week.