David Staller: But it was all a puzzle to him. Everything was. Every element of communication. The way we looked, dressed, pronounced, the use of words. So the idea of him being fascinated with puzzle boxes, even if he couldn't open the goddamn things, just always cracked me up.

Barry Joseph: Welcome to Matching Minds with Sondheim, the podcast. I am your host, Barry Joseph. As you know, we are normally joined by some amazing people to respond to audio clips from over 60 hours of my original interviews for the book. This time we'll be focusing on the topic of Stephen Sondheim and Puzzle boxes. Even if you've never heard of these ingenious little constructions, trust me, this episode's gonna get you in the feels. But before I introduce my guest, I wanna highlight that I am going to be in London. Yes. I'm leaving New York and I'm bringing Matching Minds with Sondheim to London. From April 16th through April 19th, I am gonna be doing a number of things with NYU London, with the Sondheim Society and more. So please, if you're interested, go to my website. Matchingmindswithsondheim.com, click on events, and more importantly, tell me if I should be looking for you in the audience. I would love to meet other Sondheim fans out there and folks who read my book and listen to this podcast. Without any further ado, I'm excited now to introduce today's guest, David Staller, who I had the pleasure of meeting just last month. David is the founding artistic director of New York's Gingold theatrical group, now in their 21st year. The company named for Staller's Godmother, actress Hermione Gingold, was created as an activist theater company championing human rights and free speech. They are known particularly as presenters of the work of George Bernard Shaw. Staller known internationally as a speaker of all things Shaw and Equal Rights is the only person known to have directed performances of every one of Shaw's 65 plays. Staller has won several awards as an actor, director, and producer. Now recently when I spoke in New York City's the Players Club, he introduced me and then joined me on the stage. And in a moment you will see what role he played and why I insisted he join me in exploring with you today's topic, Stephen Sondheim and puzzle boxes. David, welcome.

David Staller: Thank you. It's a joy to be able to speak with you.

Barry Joseph: David, is there anything you wanna add about your background before we talk about your connection with Stephen Sondheim.

David Staller: I was introduced to the work of George Bernard Shaw by Hermione Gingold. Long before I confess, I had heard of Stephen Sondheim. And it was oddly enough, Shaw's work and humanitarian precepts that have inspired almost every human connection I've made of any great meaning in my life. And very few were more meaningful to me than with Mr. Sondheim. When I was 10, I was going to school, away, and would correspond with Hermione Gingold, and she finally wrote me a rather pithy letter that said, darling I love to hear from you, but really if you want me to respond, you've got to start asking me more interesting questions, and with this letter came a copy of Shaw's play Man and Superman, which is a long and complex play, but so accessible, so funny, so human, and so perfect for a child to read because it's very much about the idea of challenging everything, questioning everything, making our own decisions about life. Questioning one's place in one's own life in society, sex roles, human connections. So she said, just start on page one, and we'll explore it. Well, it was not that many years after that, that she began working with Sondheim, who confessed to her one day when he was teaching her some music in his home and she saw these books of Shaw all over the place. He said, oh, everything I've ever written was inspired by Shaw. Everything I ever wrote, i've plagiarized his work somewhat in my work and she said, oh, you should meet my darling David. You two have a lot to discuss. And so we began a correspondance. When I came to New York, he would invite me over to his home, and we would read through sections of Shaw. He became a bit of a mentor for me. He lived only a few blocks from Hermione. It became a very meaningful and playful relationship. And as I have always been prone to finding unusual gifts and tributes for people, I really enjoy celebrating birthdays and really any holiday, religious or not. And one day Sondheim was asking me about crosswords, showing me one that he had had published and all these games, and none of these elements of life had ever fascinated me the way they did him. And when asked, he explained very directly and very simply, that rather like an actor playing a role, it creates such an element of safety for artists because there's a beginning and a middle and an end. You don't have to figure out what to say. Everything is structured for you. You know that if you show up on time, you go up on stage, you'll be able to finish your story and go home and with games, although there are levels of interpretation and possible failure, they're finite. They create a very finite element of this moment in your life. And the idea of each human being inhabiting their own unique puzzle. We all have our own moving pieces. We all have our mysteries, we all have our own hidden rooms. And so his work as an artist, which is trying to figure out the world. As anyone who's explored his work knows that his entire legacy is trying to explore and understand human nature, human behavior, the human thought process, the emotionality of human beings. And animals. You know, he had some great dogs in his life too. And with games, it was something that he felt he could have some degree of control over, as opposed to human beings. And also to explore his own joys and demons and disappointments. One day during a snowstorm, he confessed to me that part of his obsession with games was also in a way to procrastinate from doing his work. But also to avoid dealing with himself. There are times when, as is well documented, he had his own personal relationship with alcohol and sometimes drugs. Can you imagine just being inside his head all the time? How complex, how noisy, how conflicted it must have been up there? Good heavens. So the idea of transferring all that complexity to game playing, to being the child that he never felt he could be. To have this childlike delight in playing with his pals, was a relief, was a balm for him. For me, what I began finding as a possible gift were tangible items. I never felt I was contributing as much to our friendship as he was. So for me finding things became fun for me, and then I began finding these boxes. Puzzle boxes, fascinated me, especially those made within inlaid wood from Japan. But every culture has had them. And discussing with Sondheim, the reason for this. He quite rightly provided the insight that, , it's something finite, something solvable, as opposed to, again, to day-to-day existence as opposed to our life. Take a box and figure it out, and then mission accomplished.

Barry Joseph: For those who've never heard of puzzle boxes before, can you both describe to us what they are and also place us in your life? Are you still a teenager at this point? Are you in your twenties? Where are you and where are we on the calendar?

David Staller: The first box I found that we might refer to as a puzzle box was in the seventies. I was a teenager. I was new in New York, and had, gone to a flea market and there was just this beautiful inlaid wooden box. I thought this would be really nice to put a gift in for somebody. And I picked it up and it seemed to simply exist as a cube. And, the flea market seller explained that you have to find the hidden panels on the box to slide and it will open for you. And it took a while and I figured it out. This was something that I think had been perhaps from the late 19th century and was French. And, I was just delighted by it. And bought it and gave it to Steve, who was just thrilled. And I must have known that he already had some of these, but the idea of a puzzle box is not say a game box. But, boxes meant to be containers, but their purpose for existing is that in order to make them open... there is some hidden panel to slide or twist, or sort of like a Rubik's cube, except that when you finally figure it out. When you figure out the formula, something will open. And sometimes it's a sliding drawer. Sometimes it's the opening of a box. Sometimes it's only a step toward another step toward opening something else. And for Steve, it was the idea of it that delighted him.

Barry Joseph: So David, before we go more into how you brought Puzzle boxes into your relationship with Stephen Sondheim, let's take a pause a moment and listen to Stephen Sondheim himself. A year before he passed away, he did an interview with Games Magazine, which produced the last extensive interview with him about his interest in puzzles and games. So I'm gonna share now a few moments of Stephen Sondheim in conversation with Andrew Parr, where the two of them talked about their common shared interest in puzzle boxes.

Andrew Parr: Can we talk about your Carrie Currie puzzle collection?

Stephen Sondheim: Well, yeah, sure. There's nothing to talk about. I sure envy you, your collection. None of mine are as elegantly fancy as yours.

Andrew Parr: Uh, well, I, I disagree.

Stephen Sondheim: Well, but, but the point is that by the time I get their catalog, ones that I really wanna buy are already sold out.

Andrew Parr: Right.

Stephen Sondheim: Don't you have that trouble too?

Andrew Parr: Oh, absolutely. Yep.

Stephen Sondheim: I'm happy enough with my collection. I'm no good at them. I have no three dimensional imagination at all.

Andrew Parr: Have you solved any of them?

Stephen Sondheim: Oh, the puzzles that I'm good at are numbers and words. But no. I just love the objects and I love, you know, fiddling with them. I almost never can open them without looking at the solutions sheet, but I don't really care. I just love the way it looks, you know. The fun of this is the look of it and how it's gonna work. There's no point am I even trying that because I've just no good at the stuff. The Carry Carou boxes I rarely can open by myself.

Andrew Parr: But that's the nice thing about those boxes is, they do combine form and function. They look fantastic.

Stephen Sondheim: Yeah, they look great. And they're satisfying. Even if I have to be told how to do them.

Andrew Parr: Well, I don't think there's anything wrong with that either, because then you marvel at the fact that someone actually created this box.

Stephen Sondheim: That's the point. It's the craftsman part of it that I love.

Barry Joseph: I loved watching your face while we were listening to that. What was going on for you?

David Staller: Oh, Barry, well, certainly to hear his voice talking to us is very emotional. i would just never know when the phone was gonna ring " Staller. It's Steve". And nobody sounded like him. Nobody else ever sounded like him. Also, anyone who's ever heard him speak, and at this point, if they're listening to this, they've heard him speak. No regionalism of any kind. His pronunciation of words was so determinately not placeable. There was no time or place to how he spoke. The consonants, the Rs, everything were very crisp and deliberate. There was never any sense, even if he was trying to figure out what to say, there was never a sense in his voice of unfocused direction. On the other hand, as I went through puberty and my voices changed, he would really enjoy guessing who was on the other end of the phone, and he would come up with some very deliberately making fun of the fact that I was also having traveled a lot back and forth to from England. I had this can't place where the hell I'm from accent which I've attempted to address. But it was all a puzzle to him. Everything was. Every element of communication. The way we looked, dressed, pronounced, the use of words. So the idea of him being fascinated with puzzle boxes, even if he couldn't open the goddamn things, just always cracked me up And I found a lot of them for him. I think they weren't all on display. Some were on his piano in New York somewhere, at the home in Roxbury, somewhere in Peter's tree house, elsewhere on the grounds. Some, he used.

Barry Joseph: Used in what way?

David Staller: Some of them he would use to store pencils or drugs or keys or whatever. And sometimes he would mistakenly close them and then practically have to get a hammer out to open them.

Barry Joseph: Because he'd forget how to open them again.

David Staller: Yeah. Yeah. And you think it's Sondheim? He can do anything, but... yeah, it was funny about that. And I would find all these really terrific boxes. And, sometimes he would need help whoever his boyfriend du jour happened to be, or his secretary Steve Clark or Mary Rogers or whoever happened to be stopping by. Would you please try to open this for me? And every now and then you would call up this, God damnit, I would you just come over the damn thing. It was really fun for me because inside was always the gift from me. Again, for me it was the same thing. It was an idea of order and a sense of finite exploration of something that I felt wasn't about me.

Barry Joseph: How would you decide which ones to buy him?

David Staller: A lot of it had to do with just how they looked as you just heard him describing. They were just aesthetically something that seemed unusual and pleasing. It could be something really simple. I would generally prefer to find, puzzle game boards if they were in another language or, if there were no directions and you think, I have no idea what this game was, or if anyone could have ever figured out how to play it, and sometimes he would put those up on his wall, as you know. Or he had drawers where he just had these things stacked up. Sometimes there were card games. Things that you might think were first tarot cards. Just the way people found ways to entertain themselves, to take themselves away from their moment to moment life. Especially if there were ways to engage other people. For me, because so much of my friendship with him was private, was not a part of the gang, was not the group. For me the boxes were direct, personal way to connect. That were not meant to be a part of the group. And, one day, in California, I met this ancient Japanese artisan who created the most amazing boxes. There was an art gallery. And they were just gorgeous. And when I met it must have been in the 1980s and he was already at least 300 years old. And was visiting family in California. And I bought one of the boxes and we kept in touch. We corresponded and. Every now and then I would pay him and he would send me one of these boxes. So there were quite a few boxes that Steve had that were usually made from bamboo. They were either rectangular sized sort of pencil boxes or squares. There was one that was, an astonishing creation that was a sphere and that was a tough one. And he would always burn his signature, his chop his name into the bottom. And the last one I had commissioned for him was Steve's last birthday, I believe it was for his birthday. And he confessed, he had invited me to Thanksgiving that year. I couldn't go. He called up and said Staller, I open this goddamn box. And we're gonna have to get together. So you and Jeff, his husband and I will get together on Sunday, this was the day before Thanksgiving, and open this box. I'm sure there's something in there that I cannot live without. And then he died the next day. Which is still really annoying.

I mean, really? How dare he die? I don't think any of us will ever forgive that. And months went by and I got a call one day from his secretary, Stephen Carr. They were closing up the house. It was gonna be sold on 49th Street, which is just around the corner from where I currently live. There's a box and a gift bag. Clark was very often the one to whom I would drop off these things at the kitchen door. This is here, do you want it? And I just felt myself sort of falling through the floor. I said, yeah, well come closing up the house. So it was a bit bracing, as you can imagine. Especially to be in the house as it was emptied. Just to tour the house. And see it without anything in it. And he gave me the box. And, I slid the panel open and the box opened and I just immediately closed it up again. 'Cause everything I'd put in there was still there and it was, as you can imagine, somewhat emotional for me. I didn't actually open it and take all the things out until I met you.

Barry Joseph: So David was introduced to me when I was invited to speak at the players. I always share with whomever is my point of contact, my host who's invited me, I say, is there anyone in the audience who might have a connection with Sondheim. And I got connected with David, and David told me some of what you just heard and asked if he could bring the box. Well, you can imagine what I said. And I will share in the show notes a photo with David and the box that he brought to us so generously so that he could first challenge me. I got to match minds with Sondheim for the first time and match him 'cause I also couldn't open it up. He gave me at least two minutes. I couldn't budge anything. I had no clue what to do with it. And then about halfway through my presentation, it was time for me to welcome David to the stage in front of this community of people who knew each other. 'Cause it was a club who were teasing each other in this beautiful old library full of books. And David then talked as he is now with all of you about his relationship with Sondheim, about his connections with Stephen Sondheim in the puzzle boxes. And then he brought out the box. And he shared that. Sondehim couldn't open it. I couldn't open it. And then David, I think you asked everyone in the room would they like to see you open it and see what's inside. What happened next?

David Staller: This one was an easy one, which is how I tormented Steve when he called me because. Sometimes the boxes would require three or four panel slides and this was just one. Now granted, the artist who created these boxes was really good. You could see no seams. You could see where the top was supposed to slide off. You could see that... I slid it open. And the pop popped off and inside sure enough, was the tissue paper and the gold paper that I put in. It felt almost like an invasion of privacy to open someone else's gift. Barry, you were there when I opened it and then decided to unmask the contents. What do you rememeber seeing in the box as I was pulling them out one by one?

Barry Joseph: Well, the first thing that I noticed was how you opened it. I couldn't figure out any way to get that hinge to work. And I watched you very simply press harder than I might've thought it was safe to press. And slide something aside, and then it popped open and I thought that was gonna be it. I thought you were gonna say, and that's how it opens. I had no idea you were gonna start taking things out. And sharing with us all the things that you had gifted Stephen Sondheim a few days before he passed away that he never got to see. It was like a clown car. You just kept pulling things out. I don't know how you fit so many things in there.

David Staller: There was a scroll of a Calvin and Hobbes. Hobbes on the ground looking way up at Calvin, about to jump into a little inflatable pool. Basically about facing life. He had been complaining about evil forces coming at him. So, I had found this little pentacle charm, like a star charm that's supposed to war it against evil witches and warlocks. And, a chocolate truffle from Lilac Chocolates, which also had a history with him. Nothing that he needed. Nothing that he would've wanted. It was just to let him know that he was being thought of and valued. It's just the fun of it. It's all a game.

Barry Joseph: And it was so generous of you to bring the box to share with us, but then when you chose to open it with all of us, you were introducing all of us into your personal life in a way that was so tender and touching.

David Staller: It was tough, and I'm glad I did because sometimes it's about facing those things and it was weird because when people you love go. They're still always with you. It's one of the reasons why I'm so grateful and honored that Steve Klar, let me wander, Steve's house empty. I think they were having to close and sign the final papers the next day for the people who bought it, and to wander all those rooms to bottom. After the fire I'd helped reorganize stuff.

Barry Joseph: The 1995 fire.

David Staller: Yeah. And it was very different. But the way he hired his friends and architects and artists to redesign the house. It was so gorgeous. But, I remember just sitting quietly in the corner while he worked or there was a time I was having a rough time and he let me hang out to actually live briefly up in his top floor in the attic. And one of those times I was very young, they were having one of his treasure hunt in the house downstairs. I was shy. I was intimidated by a lot of these people in the group and didn't wanna be a part of it, but it was fun to listen. And I'd helped him hide stuff that day. But, as far as the games and the hunts and the challenges. A couple that were most meaningful to me included my late partner Robert Osborne, who people might know as the original host on Turner Classic Movies. And, obviously was obsessed with movie trivia. It was one of the elements that brought Bob and I together because I was also a movie trivia fan. And the only person on the planet who might ever have known more movie trivia than Bob was Steve, and they had never met. And this is after TCM had been created. In the early nineties, and I suggested we all get together. Steve was just beside himself. So we went over to his house with Steve's then boyfriend and, I never had to say a word, just the two of them riffing on the most obscure character actors. You've never heard a more in depth dissertation on the work of Edna May Oliver. And for them, it was a game, but they were truly testing each other and it was on fire. Those boys were like 16 year olds talking about baseball cards and they were just rat a tat at it. So, there were a few games that Steve planned in which we had to play characters from one of the Thin Man movies usually. The second Thin Man movie was generally regarded as the, of all of them. That was the one where, f or those who don't know the movie, Jimmy Stewart did it.

Barry Joseph: Spoiler!

David Staller: Yes. Sorry! Spoiler alert. Yes, Jimmy Stewart played the bad guy. But charmingly. So, , there would've been one person assigned that character and there were never more than eight involved in these things. But generally, you weren't allowed to choose which of the characters in the movies you'd play. You'd be assigned it. And it was Nick and Nora Charles. So there were a lot of cocktails going on at this party. Not a lot of eating. And Steve would generally play Nick Charles, in these things and carrying around a cocktail shaker.

Barry Joseph: So what is it that was happening? Are people reading a script? Are they improvising? Is there a game, or a puzzle, in those characters?

David Staller: The only preparation required was that you had to know the movie. You had to have watched the movie. You had to know who the characters were. You had to know what was happening. But part of the fun was that you knew that there would be a murder. And that there was a body. And that the murder weapon had been thrown, as you remember, into the river and was irretrievable. But the point was that there would be clues finally leading to the murderer. Sometimes the clues would be inside a book, inside a bookcase. Like, there was a book I'd given him from a flea market that was about cocktails from the 1920s. And sure enough, he had put a clue in that book and assumed from the clues he would've been given, that I would've remembered that I'd given him that book. And that in the book there was a chapter about, I guess it was martinis, and you would open up and sure enough there was a hand written clue that would lead you to the next clue. I mean, it was silly. It was like children on a camp out in the woods telling ghost stories.

Barry Joseph: So this is a bespoke murder mystery party where all of the party attendees are playing in the characters of a particular movie.

David Staller: Yes.

Barry Joseph: Wow. Okay so David, we've been talking about the treasure hunts you experienced with Stephen Sondheim, and the games. You told me about a treasure hunt that you experienced, where I think you told me he broke into your house and created a hunt in your own house for you?

David Staller: Yes, yes, yes he did. , Although, Bob and I were sharing his place. And I was out of town working, in London. And I was having a rough time. And he decided he would get my key from Bob and when I got home, he had indeed created it was almost like a series of booby traps for me to to have to figure out. And solving the mystery an invitation to a dinner party he was given. I would not be allowed to attend unless I'd figured out where the goddamn thing was. And, there were a lot of theater and movie books in my apartment. So there were all references to these really obscure, mostly Broadway actors from the silent days who had then tried to make transitions into the movies. Just so much fun and, it's funny, I had not thought of this until then. Recently. I've been going through all my things. I'm donating a lot of books to libraries and so forth, and I came upon one of the clues I had not found.

Barry Joseph: Can you share what it was? Do you remember the details?

David Staller: There was this postcard the 1930s from the Ambassador Hotel, the Coconut Grove nightclub. It was signed by Gloria Swanson. He had signed it from Gloria Swanson. Which was then supposed to lead me to across the room to where I had a book about Sunset Boulevard. And I could not find.. So he finally gave me a clue. To lead me to the next one. So annoyed. So disappointed in me. By the way, which leads me to something else. I'm not encouraging anyone to take up the mantle on this, but running this theater company, we sent out e-blasts and he had very little patience with incorrect use of words or misspelling them. And almost without fail, every time I sent an e-blast, I would get notes from him. And usually emails, sometimes phone calls. For instance, the word determinately. Or God forbid, anecdote as opposed to antidote. The play involves an antidote, you know? Oh, he just couldn't believe I could have possibly made that mistake. And, you know, I loved it. I looked forward to it. He began accusing me of doing this on purpose. I did not.

Barry Joseph: So did you make it to the party?

David Staller: Yeah, it was... I would not describe him as a party boy. I think what he enjoyed was the sense of release by bringing a group of people together who again, would take him out of his own head. Who would relieve him of having to work one thing. One of the things he appreciated about George Bernard Shaw was his amazing output. And the fact that Steve was truly work driven. But as you can imagine, working on some of these pieces, which just takes so much outta you, you can't just keep doing it. The idea of having people together also provided him an opportunity to study us, to explore us, to see how we behave. I found out later that he would sometimes raise a specific topic that he could use in his work to see how people responded. Which is brilliant.

Barry Joseph: Can you tell us, before we explore some other aspects of your time with Stephen Sondheim as a friend and as a game player what do you want us to understand about who Stephen Sondheim was? Just through the very thin lens of his interest in puzzle boxes. What can that tell us about him?

David Staller: The notion of taking an inanimate object and imbuing upon it either a personality or a meaning or an emotional connection... can be a potent reminder of how our brains react to the need to connect to ideas. With boxes or with any of these games, it provided Stephen Sondheim an opportunity to remove himself from needs, his obligations, his disappointments, his work schedule, the phone ringing, the emails, awaiting response. He could hold an object and imbue it with a personal need. That this was a specific object that he could own and control. This was an object that generally he didn't purchase that was given to him for some purpose, with some meaning from someone who ideally would've meant something to him, and he could then control this tiny universe of need by figuring it out.

Barry Joseph: So, David, you talked about puzzle boxes from France. You talked about puzzle boxes from Japan. Let's take a moment and hear a little bit from Stephen Sondheim in that interview with Andrew Parr, where he says the name of one of his favorite American puzzle box designers.

Did you notice in the pictures I sent you the elegant circular box?

Andrew Parr: Oh yeah. That's the Lotus Box. Kagen Sound is the designer.

Stephen Sondheim: It's Kagen. Is that his name?

Andrew Parr: Yes.

Stephen Sondheim: Okay. In the middle of the night, I woke up, I said, now I remember it's Kagen. Before I called you, I checked Kagen. I said, yeah, that's the guy. Do you have any of his boxes?

Barry Joseph: I love that. Do you have any of his boxes? The excitement in his voice of speaking with a fellow collector who shares a puzzle interest with him, he's so delighted and excited. I love that.

So why don't we take a moment and listen to what it was like for Kagen Sound, from my interview with him, talking about what it was like when he discovered that one of his clients was named Stephen Sondheim.

Kagen Sound: I didn't know he was collecting that work for a long time. I think he liked to be pretty anonymous in his correspondence, and after a while, one of his emails, he just revealed himself and said, oh, by the way, this is Stephen Sondheim. And I was like, oh my goodness. Like it really blew my mind. I had no idea that he was collecting puzzles and let alone my puzzles at the time. So that was like made my day kind of moment there where I was like, wow, cool. This really cool guy is interested in what I do. I felt pretty invisible at the time. I didn't think I was on the map or anything. And then the other really fun moment is if you watch this documentary, Six by Sondheim. a couple of my pieces are on his piano. He's just showing his piano in his apartment. He has a bunch of, Ikea, who is the guy in Japan I really look up to. And then there were a few of mine on this piano. I was like, oh my goodness, I saw one of my boxes in this documentary about... i'm real isolated in my work, so I'm like, oh wait, I'm not all alone doing this. There's other people who are creative and they connect with other people who are creative.

Barry Joseph: David, when Kagen Sound is talking about seeing video from that documentary of Stephen Sondheim's, I think Connecticut, home. And all the puzzle boxes on top and refers to some of the Japanese ones, are those ones you gave him.

David Staller: Yeah. Some. Yeah. Once he would have people visit him and they would see the boxes and people wanted to offer some tribute to him, something that he would enjoy. People started finding these lovely objects. I don't know if they would also include things inside. I think generally the boxes were the gift.

Barry Joseph: Can we take a look at the photo together?

David Staller: Yeah.

Barry Joseph: One of the things I loved when we were at The Players is when I did what I usually do, which is I brought up a screen grab from that documentary just to show this is Stephen Sondheim sitting in his piano and all these beautiful puzzle boxes on top. And the next thing I know, you turn around saying that one, that one, that one pointing at the ones you'd given him.

David Staller: Well, he had them both in Roxbury and in Turtle Bay, and he had some on his desk. Upstairs. upstairs He usually would keep his, I've mentioned a couple on the piano in which he would keep objects to use for his work.

Barry Joseph: Tell us what you see.

David Staller: You could see the one on the far left, which is from Japan. The bamboo box. There's the walnut square one. There's, the five sided box. There's a very narrow sort of pencil box I gave him. Right behind where the music is.

Barry Joseph: Nice.

David Staller: I think for him they became so familiar. I don't know how much he actually clocked it. I don't know how much he was actually aware of them being there. He had a wonderful team of people that would clean and dust. But he had a certain order he liked them to be in. I must say that if they were rearranged during the cleaning, he would put them back. The presentation of the puzzles were part of the puzzle.

Barry Joseph: Well, how lovely. They are now forever documented in Six by Sondheim.

David Staller: Indeed.

Barry Joseph: In 2024, my listeners well know that many of the items from Stephen Sondheim's two homes went up for auction at Doyle's in New York City. You told me about your experience being at this auction. And seeing an item that you had gifted Stephen Sondheim. Can you tell us what happened?

David Staller: It was so strange. And there were some boxes there, including a miniature chest of drawers, which I saw and things I'd given him. And, I know that very often, he would leave the little notes or cards inside these boxes that I'd given him. And, the people running these auction houses don't usually like you to handle things. But, they weren't looking. So I went over to this one particular box I'd given him, and I went underneath and I turned a little lever, and then I pushed a panel and sure enough, in the back, a little drawer popped out with my note. And they had no idea. Obviously they had no idea. I pushed it back in. I left it there. I thought, okay, whoever bought this will probably never know that this exists. And there's no way of knowing who bought it. But again, just part of this cosmic game. I hope he is laughing-

Barry Joseph: Maybe they're listening to this podcast right now.

David Staller: Maybe. But, it was a little drawer that would've popped out of the back and unlike the box that you saw that I'd given him. There was no air in the wood. You'd not have seen it. It just - ooh - It just popped out the back. And sure enough, there was my little card to him. Just another reminder why I've begun to disassemble my own belongings. 'Cause everything could just be thrown into a black garbage bag. So I'm starting to get rid of stuff.

Barry Joseph: David, I can't imagine what it's like to keep seeing these gifts of yours to Stephen Sondheim reappearing after he passed away, one that you gifted him was given back to you another, you were probably surprised to see at the Doyle auction. What is it like for this part of your personal relationship to have this cycle beyond what you intended?

David Staller: It's not unique in my life. For instance, when my partner Bob died, we had agreed to have an auction with a lot of our shared collection of movie posters and movie memorabilia and so forth. His nieces had taken a lot of things and auctioned them off. Including, sorry, whoever bought it, there's a tuxedo that they claimed he had wanted and the Academy Awards. It was mine. So it's like-

Barry Joseph: Ba-ba!

David Staller: Sorry folks. Yeah, like with Hermione's death and her auction. I've been through this so many times and it's so weird to see an antique limoge porcelain box I'd given Hermione for a birthday, and somebody's going home with it. It's a good reminder, Barry. It's stuff. They're only things. So the meaning that we impose on objects is our own personal relationship to these elements of the world that ultimately may be given too much meaning. The true joy of having known Stephen Sondheim is the legacy of what he has left for all of us as a gift, his legacy of work, his legacy of the energy, of humor and optimism, ultimately of the human race that he gave us. If you watch Sweeney Todd, he often said that that was a play that most reflected who he was, and I never believed it. I thought he was just being rascally. I really think of all the pieces that he wrote and created, especially with Hal. A Little Night Music most deeply reflects I think the Stephen Sondheim I knew. Which was a good buffet-style meal, helping of cynicism. But ultimately with hope. With understanding of the human heart and disappointment. But always realizing that as deeply troubled as the world may seem, the best part of who we are as human beings ultimately can triumph. And boy, these days in our sociopolitical world, it's hard to hold onto that at times.

Barry Joseph: It's true. David. We live in challenging times, and as we all know, Stephen Sondheim often said, it's all about order outta chaos. We're living in one of these chaotic moments. David, before you go, you mentioned Calvin and Hobbes earlier. I have never heard anybody talk about Stephen Sondheim having an affection and a deep one for Calvin and Hobbes.

David Staller: Well, it was actually Steve that introduced me to this drawing world of Peterson's called Calvin and Hobbes. He would actually clip out Calvin and hos cartoons from papers or things and send them to me with sometimes odd and ludicrous comments. Or rewrite in the conversation bubbles, what they were actually saying. But, I would do the same, with him in these puzzle boxes. I would very often send him either a single window or a cartoon strip that would've something to do to relating to something going in his life. And for those of you who know the Calvin and Hobbes cartoons, you know that Calvin is a 6-year-old who has an incredibly active, nonstop, never going to sleep brain. With an extraordinary vocabulary and complexity for understanding and very often warped understanding, not understanding the adult world. Always feeling disenfranchised. Always the outsider. And longing somehow to feel a part of the world unsuccessfully. So creates his own world. Creates his own planet of understanding and having to navigate the adult world and other children. And he has created for himself the dream companion. The perfect best friend him. Who is always there for him. Never lets him down. It's a stuffed tiger named Hobbes. And this stuffed tiger exists as a stuffed tiger to everyone else but Calvin. But to Calvin, he is a fully alive tiger, who follows Calvin everywhere. And is his constant companion of love and joy and understanding and often mocks Calvin. Now remember that all of this is happening in Calvin's imagination. That this imaginary tige r is speaking to Calvin through Calvin's own brain. Is the only one who can hear Hobbes. The only one that can see that Hobbes is a fully living thing. It's a secret friend. This is the companion that Sondheim had lived his entire life, longing for. And why his heart was forever being broken or disappointed. Reality sometimes just can't match up to imagination. And when you next look at any of these Calvin and Hobbes creations, it's tremendously revealing. As anyone who's read anything about Sondheim knows, he knows that he had no relationship with the father and the relationship with the mother was to put it mildly, not pleasant. In the Calvin and Hobbs stories, the father is rather sardonically tolerant. And the mother is surprisingly patient. They both have their own lives. It's as if they're not quite sure how this kid got into their lives. This adult, married couple, mom and dad, live their lives. The father seems always sitting in an easy chair reading and patiently tolerating this 6-year-old. And mother rather knowingly humors Calvin. Except when they're all yelling at each other. But you know, the beauty of the computer is that you can pretty much find anything, and I found a Calvin and Hobbes font. So, I would occasionally alter some of these cartoons. I would scan them and alter they were actually saying until finally one day. During a particularly tense moment in our sociopolitical world, I sent one of Calvin and Hobbes walking down the street. Calvin is walking through a snowy meadow with Hobbes and turns to Hobbes and says, if this was a play, Sondheim would know how to fix this. And I had never used his name before in any of these. Part of the game was him trying to figure out if I actually subverted one of the cartoons or not. It was included in one of these boxes. And he just called me up in a frenzy. I've never heard him sound so excited, and I thought, oh my God, what the hell? He said, how did you do this? How did you get him to do this? Do you know him? I have to contact him. I need a signed copy of this. I have to thank him. Oh for god's sakes. Calm down. I created it. You didn't, you didn't. This looks for real. And he never let me forget that one. That I really got him on this game and, I think it was after that one that he said, you know, no more subverted Calvins. But, I've been so lucky in my life. It's one of the advantages of being as old as I am. It's to have known so many wonderful people. That so many people now will never have the chance to know, like Hermione, who was singular and Sondheim. There's never been anyone, never will be anyone like him. And I think one of the joys of friendship with him was his childlike nature.

Barry Joseph: David, it's been such a pleasure and an honor to spend this time with you. Is there anything I didn't ask you about that you wanna discuss with my listeners today?

David Staller: Well, Barry Joseph, I'm so pleased that we are now BFFs, we're best friends forever. And to find out that you are so incredibly creative and industrious and that you have taken the initiative to take the huge amount of effort and time to explore Sondheim's mind through his book that you've written is really invaluable to anyone who's interested in exploring Sondheim's backstory. What brought Sondheim to his need to create, how he used his fascination with the human brain and solving puzzles and how he used that in creating his work, his characters, even his music. You had heard me say when someone asked, were there any composers, particularly redolant in son's life? Yeah, Ravel and Copeland in particular. But their inspirations had been incredibly complex work, especially by Bach. The mathematical equation involved in the Goldberg variations, in the cello suites. As a cellist, we would discuss the six suites and their construction. And, how Bach had, as if creating puzzles out of his work would lead the musician and the listener the puzzle of storytelling of music. And you very cleverly are able to convey that in your book. The sense of life is a game. Life is a puzzle. Life is a matter of trying to figure out. And luckily as with most of the most important games in life, you may solve it, you might not. The most important element is being a part of the game.

Barry Joseph: Thank you David. And thank you listeners for joining us for Matching Minds with Sondheim, the podcast. If you can't wait for the next episode to drop, then please pick up a copy of my book. Hit us up on the socials, Facebook and Instagram. And please comment and like the podcast on whatever platform you use. It helps us out immensely. I would also like to thank everyone who contributed behind the scenes to this episode. The musical stingers composed by Mateo Chavez-Lewis. Our line producer Dennis Caouki. And the theme song to our podcast with lyrics and music by Colm Malloy. And sung by the one and only Anne Morrison, who created the role of Mary in Merrily We Roll Along. Until next time, remember, someone is on your side, especially when matching minds with Sondheim.

David Staller: I really think of all the pieces that he wrote and created, A Little Night Music most deeply reflects the Stephen Sondheim I knew which was a good buffet-style meal, helping of cynicism. But ultimately with hope always realizing that as deeply troubled as the world may seem, the best part of who we are as human beings ultimately can triumph. And boy, these days in our sociopolitical world, it's hard to hold onto that at times.