This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:10] Michelle Simone Miller: This episode is brought to you by Studio Pilates South Slope and Studio Pilates Cobble Hill.

[0:15] Michelle Simone Miller: Are you listening to this Tribeca content in the New York City area?

[0:18] Michelle Simone Miller: Then you must check out Studio Pilates South Slope and Studio Pilates Cobble Hill locations in Brooklyn.

[0:24] Michelle Simone Miller: You may have seen me tag them on my socials for years in my Instagram stories.

[0:28] Michelle Simone Miller: I've been going to the South Slope Studio for five years.

[0:37] Michelle Simone Miller: This is the best Pilates Reformer class.

[0:40] Michelle Simone Miller: I know I've tried so many before.

[0:42] Michelle Simone Miller: What makes these studios unique is that their classes are designed by physical therapists with scientifically sequenced exercises to increase your strength, muscle tone, and posture, and just overall fitness, really from head to toe.

[0:55] Michelle Simone Miller: Each studio is equipped with monitors throughout the room that shows a visual demonstration of each exercise, along with an audio voiceover to coach you through the class.

[1:04] Michelle Simone Miller: But the instructors are there.

[1:06] Michelle Simone Miller: They're the nicest people you'll ever meet.

[1:08] Michelle Simone Miller: And with all of my pervasive back issues, I trust them to guide me through alternative exercises when I just can't do something that day.

[1:16] Michelle Simone Miller: Personally, I love the six-week amplified challenge where I've committed to 18 classes in six weeks.

[1:22] Michelle Simone Miller: I'm currently doing one.

[1:23] Michelle Simone Miller: I feel so strong and empowered taking these classes.

[1:25] Michelle Simone Miller: There's like a big chart in the front of the room, and every time I'm done with this class, I check off a box next to my name.

[1:31] Michelle Simone Miller: And one of the best parts of these studios is the community they've built.

[1:34] Michelle Simone Miller: There are walk clubs, there are Pilates games, there are fascia workshops.

[1:38] Michelle Simone Miller: I even found my favorite smoothie place after class because Studio Pilates gets a discount there.

[1:43] Michelle Simone Miller: So I tried it out and loved it.

[1:44] Michelle Simone Miller: They partner with a lot of local businesses and reward us after class with them.

[1:48] Michelle Simone Miller: It's really, really amazing.

[1:49] Michelle Simone Miller: And if that doesn't convince you to try it out, the intro offer is incredible.

[1:53] Michelle Simone Miller: You can get six classes for only $60.

[1:57] Michelle Simone Miller: That's $10 a class.

[1:58] Michelle Simone Miller: The link to sign up is in the show notes.

[2:00] Michelle Simone Miller: Let them know you learned about this from Mentors on the Mic Podcast.

[2:04] Michelle Simone Miller: So thank you, Studio Pilates Cobble Hill and Studio Pilates South Slope for sponsoring this Tribeca content this year.

[2:10] Michelle Simone Miller: We so appreciate it.

[2:11] Michelle Simone Miller: And come to class.

[2:12] Michelle Simone Miller: I might even see you there.

[2:15] Michelle Simone Miller: Welcome to Mentors on the Mic podcast.

[2:18] Michelle Simone Miller: I am your host, Michelle Simone Miller.

[2:20] Michelle Simone Miller: And today we are doing a really fun, almost part two, right?

[2:24] Michelle Simone Miller: Part two of the Love Fictionally' Shorts film block for Tribeca.

[2:29] Michelle Simone Miller: Um we had the best time with the filmmakers in part one.

[2:34] Michelle Simone Miller: We were able to do that live.

[2:35] Michelle Simone Miller: We were able to do that in a studio.

[2:38] Michelle Simone Miller: Unfortunately, three of the filmmakers were unable to make that.

[2:41] Michelle Simone Miller: And so I wanted to do my best to make sure we had a part two with the remaining three filmmakers.

[2:47] Michelle Simone Miller: One of them still couldn't make it even virtually, but uh super busy.

[2:51] Michelle Simone Miller: And I'm wishing Khalil the best.

[2:53] Michelle Simone Miller: I hope that we get to connect at some point.

[2:56] Michelle Simone Miller: But I was fortunate enough to have a virtual, you know, interview with both Blake Winston Rice, the filmmaker for DISC, and Jess McLeod, the filmmaker behind She's Non-binary.

[3:13] Michelle Simone Miller: Both really moving films that just added so much to the overall block, um, really sort of made you feel all these awesome things and took you on a journey, which we talk about in this episode in this um panel, if you will, these two interviews.

[3:33] Michelle Simone Miller: Uh I've done three person two per, you know, person interviews before, but it was different talking to each of them about their own respective projects.

[3:41] Michelle Simone Miller: But we talked about their experience leading up to their short leading up to Tribeca.

[3:46] Michelle Simone Miller: We talked about the process of making this film, and we talked about what they're working on and what they have coming up.

[3:53] Michelle Simone Miller: So, yes, I'm so excited I got to speak to both of them, and I learned so much from both about creating.

[4:00] Michelle Simone Miller: You know, as an actor myself, I am looking to see what it looks like, what it's like to create your own film.

[4:07] Michelle Simone Miller: Um, and there's so much that goes into it.

[4:10] Michelle Simone Miller: Um and I feel like it's fun to talk to filmmakers who've done this again and again because there's a level of ease that even though they're still working on things and they're still building up their career and they're, you know, at various stages.

[4:25] Michelle Simone Miller: Um, I just feel like there's an element to them that I'm learning as to okay, they are really good at this, they are really good at that.

[4:33] Michelle Simone Miller: And I can learn from that.

[4:35] Michelle Simone Miller: And I hope that you guys can too.

[4:37] Michelle Simone Miller: So without further ado, here's Blake Winston Rice and Jess McLeod.

[4:45] Michelle Simone Miller: Hello, hello.

[4:46] Michelle Simone Miller: Welcome to Mentors on the Mic Podcast.

[4:48] Michelle Simone Miller: Blake and Jess, thank you so much for being here and talking with me.

[4:51] Michelle Simone Miller: I appreciate it.

[4:53] Blake Winston Rice: Thanks for having us.

[4:54] Jess McLeod: Yeah, thanks so much.

[4:55] Blake Winston Rice: Psyched to get into it.

[4:57] Michelle Simone Miller: Uh, so first, because this is a podcast, I will be recording and showing this video as well.

[5:03] Michelle Simone Miller: But for those of you who are listening, can you introduce yourself and talk a little bit about your film?

[5:08] Blake Winston Rice: Blake, you go first.

[5:10] Jess McLeod: I was totally gonna tell you to go first.

[5:12] Blake Winston Rice: All right.

[5:12] Blake Winston Rice: Um what's up?

[5:14] Blake Winston Rice: I'm Blake Winston Rice.

[5:15] Blake Winston Rice: I'm uh the director and co-writer of the short DISC that just played at Tribeca and has had a great run so far.

[5:23] Blake Winston Rice: And it's the story of a hookup gone too far, and you can look into what that really means if you check out the film.

[5:29] Blake Winston Rice: And yeah, thanks so much for having us.

[5:32] Blake Winston Rice: Psyched to be on.

[5:33] Blake Winston Rice: Let's talk the process.

[5:35] Blake Winston Rice: The process and everything else involved.

[5:38] Jess McLeod: Yeah.

[5:39] Jess McLeod: Thank you.

[5:39] Jess McLeod: Thanks for having me.

[5:40] Jess McLeod: I appreciate that.

[5:42] Jess McLeod: I'm Jess McLeod.

[5:45] Jess McLeod: Um, I'm the director, writer, actor, producer of uh She's Non-binary, which is um based on a real breakup that I had where I told my boyfriend I was off the wait list for top surgery, and then we both freaked out.

[6:01] Jess McLeod: Yeah, yeah.

[6:02] Jess McLeod: Yeah, it's uh, it's funny because you know, we always have these like log lines for films or like things that you know you guys have been asked this question over and over and over again, and you have to like condense this whole thing into like one line, and it's very difficult because I've had the pleasure of seeing both of your shorts, and it's just so there's so much to both of them, which we'll hopefully get into a little bit.

[6:24] Michelle Simone Miller: Um, but yes, okay, so let's start with your experience level before getting to these shorts because both of you have been in the industry for a while, both of you have done a lot of different things.

[6:34] Michelle Simone Miller: Um, Jess, you have a lot of acting experience as well as directing and writing.

[6:39] Michelle Simone Miller: Can you talk a little bit first about your experience and then we'll talk a little bit about specifically this short and the process, you know, in which to get there.

[6:49] Michelle Simone Miller: But first, what's your experience like?

[6:51] Jess McLeod: Tell us about that.

[6:53] Jess McLeod: My experience like of acting, acting and directing and writing.

[6:58] Jess McLeod: Like, did you start acting first and then get into directing writing?

[7:01] Jess McLeod: How did you make that sort of transition into the second role of third role essentially?

[7:07] Jess McLeod: Yeah, I did start acting.

[7:10] Jess McLeod: Um I started acting when I was really young.

[7:12] Jess McLeod: I was like six or seven when I did my first commercial, which was a Lotto 649 commercial where I played a fairy that granted people's lottery wishes, and I had a really good time doing that.

[7:24] Jess McLeod: Um then many, many years later, I sort of dipped my toe into writing, and um I think that I had a lot of, I know not every actor feels this way, but I feel like a lot of us do of when you start to do a lot of projects where you're like serving other people's vision, and that vision is not necessarily like allowing you to be a full person, you start to feel a little bit antsy, or at least I did, and um I started going like, oh, what stories do I want to tell?

[7:59] Jess McLeod: Or like what do I, what am I feel, what do I feel like I'm not getting to do or like say?

[8:07] Jess McLeod: And uh then I started doing some things with my friends, a lot of which were like so bad.

[8:14] Jess McLeod: Um, but I was doing them, and then I think uh my first like actual short was called DTF, and I did that about two years ago, and then this is my third short film, the second one that I think is okay.

[8:29] Jess McLeod: Um yeah, that's where we are.

[8:33] Michelle Simone Miller: I love that.

[8:34] Michelle Simone Miller: And Blake, before I uh ask you the same question, then let's just follow up with that, Jess.

[8:39] Michelle Simone Miller: So you specifically for this film, you know, you had your breakup, it inspired you to write this film within a month.

[8:45] Michelle Simone Miller: You wrote the film and you were already in pre-production.

[8:48] Michelle Simone Miller: So did you have your team in place from DTF?

[8:52] Michelle Simone Miller: Like how did that go?

[8:53] Michelle Simone Miller: How did you get to do how did you do it so fast?

[8:56] Jess McLeod: Um, it was like totally the team, like completely the team.

[9:00] Jess McLeod: I think um the reason that we did it so fast is because I had it in my head that I had to do it before I got surgery.

[9:07] Jess McLeod: Like things exist, like breastplates exist, and I know that now, but uh at the time I really was like, I have to do it right now.

[9:14] Jess McLeod: Um so mostly that was yeah, I had like a producer from DTF that came with me.

[9:20] Jess McLeod: My friend Eva produced, um, and we've made a couple things together where I've been writing or acting.

[9:27] Jess McLeod: And then yeah, like my production designer, also from DTF, cinematographer new to the team was also great.

[9:34] Jess McLeod: Um yeah, a lot of that was just everyone around me going like, oh, we're doing it.

[9:39] Jess McLeod: Okay, okay, great.

[9:41] Michelle Simone Miller: I feel like creatives need deadlines sometimes, right?

[9:44] Michelle Simone Miller: Like you had a self-imposed deadline, but I feel like creatives like you could keep painting.

[9:48] Michelle Simone Miller: I feel like I've said this example in a couple different interviews, but you could keep painting the same painting over and over and over again for the rest of your life.

[9:54] Michelle Simone Miller: At some point, you need to go call it, this is done.

[9:57] Jess McLeod: Um I'm glad that you had this deadline for yourself, just because sometimes those things can keep going for ages, I feel like.

[10:07] Jess McLeod: Certainly.

[10:08] Jess McLeod: I think it could have cooked a little longer, but I feel like this we're making a feature version of it, and I feel like the feature is sort of all the lessons that I learned from doing the short too fast.

[10:18] Jess McLeod: I'm trying to not make again on the feature, which is nice.

[10:22] Michelle Simone Miller: Oh, I'm excited to ask you about that feature.

[10:24] Michelle Simone Miller: Um, well, yeah, I'm definitely gonna get to that.

[10:27] Michelle Simone Miller: And then Blake, sort of catch us up.

[10:30] Michelle Simone Miller: Can you ask a little?

[10:31] Michelle Simone Miller: Can you tell us a little bit about like your first thing, your first role in the industry, and then like how many, like what have you done?

[10:38] Michelle Simone Miller: Cause you've done a lot as well.

[10:39] Blake Winston Rice: So can you tell us a little bit about it, that experience that lent itself to DISC?

[10:43] Blake Winston Rice: Yeah, I mean, I don't know what counts as the industry.

[10:46] Blake Winston Rice: Like I was out shooting stuff for a while, even in college.

[10:51] Blake Winston Rice: I had like a digital short sketch comedy show that I was writing, directing, and acting in.

[10:56] Blake Winston Rice: And that kind of got me into some work in New York right after I graduated college.

[11:02] Blake Winston Rice: And probably my first experience on like proper sets besides like student filmy things was probably acting and then PAing and then like doing short films.

[11:13] Blake Winston Rice: And for the past like six, seven years, I was basically spending all my money and maxing out all my credit cards and getting friends to try to pitch in to one short film a year.

[11:24] Blake Winston Rice: And then just slowly try to make them a little bit less crappy every single time.

[11:30] Blake Winston Rice: And just to start to learn how the film festival process worked with the hope of cracking through or kind of jumping to the next level through success on the film festival circuit.

[11:40] Blake Winston Rice: Um and then before I've been done and I think slowly but surely I was seeing a little bit more results and at the same time I was producing starting to produce commercials and I was writing features with nowhere not knowing at all where to go with them.

[11:54] Blake Winston Rice: And um two years ago I had a short called Tea kind of break through for me and that kind of got me in the feature world for the first time and got me into the, you know, the next level of film festivals too.

[12:08] Blake Winston Rice: And uh yeah, long story short, that's that's kinda how it started.

[12:12] Blake Winston Rice: Did that answer that?

[12:13] Michelle Simone Miller: I love it.

[12:14] Michelle Simone Miller: That did totally answer the question.

[12:15] Michelle Simone Miller: Listen, I I'm an actor myself, and um, you know, even just the idea, like I've been in shorts, but and I produced shorts that I've been in, but it's very different to do what you guys are doing.

[12:26] Blake Winston Rice: Not different, but it takes a little bit more to kind of take that next step and go, okay, I'm gonna take this next level and just kind of figure out how to do this, and then perfecting that and being able to go, okay, now I kind of know what I'm doing.

[12:42] Michelle Simone Miller: Did you, what was your initial goal, both of you guys? Was it to get into specific film festivals? Was it to have someone hire you and do a feature? What, you know, could you talk a little bit about the goals as this, you know, from like from day one, what was the goal?

[12:58] Jess McLeod: Yeah, or like what was your initial goal making, you know, when you first made a short film, like was it to what get an agent? Was it to be in certain films, film festivals? Was it to get someone to hire you and invest in a feature?

[13:13] Blake Winston Rice: All the above, that's fair. At least for me, I don't know, you just like it was I mean, I studied film, so that the jumping acting was an easier way to get on set to get close to the other goals, and it wasn't like directing and writing is always what the main objective was. So doing the shorts was a way just to get experience, get out a way to make, you know, to get yourself in front of people who can pay you to do this for a living. And a way to get better and a way to learn and also I love it and a way to play pretend with my friends a lot, and that was a big goal as well.

[13:52] Jess McLeod: So Jess, what about you?

[13:55] Jess McLeod: I feel like when I was younger, I don't know really why I wanted to be an actor. Like, like I can't remember, but apparently, one of like the first sentences I said that was like a full sentence is I was watching a movie and I went, I want to be there, which is insane because nobody in my family is like at all in the performing industry, even close. Um but I think like, yeah, I feel like writing and directing, like when I made the first short film, um, it was because it was somebody else had asked me to do it, and he really trusted me to do it for some reason.

[14:34] Jess McLeod: And I thought his script was really funny, and I was like, okay, yeah, I want to do this and I want to do it well for him, which was helpful. But then when I made She's Nonbinary, it was like I really struggled with the idea that the only person like was me. Like I had to make it like for me. I did I struggle with that. So I think um, yeah, I don't know. It's just like easier when it's somebody else like really really cares about it as much as you, you know, and or more, and they're like trusting you with this thing, and like of course you're gonna make it.

[15:07] Jess McLeod: But I feel like when it was like me writing it and me directing it, I was like, Oh, I don't like I don't know if I need to do it as much if it's just for me. So I think like, but I feel like with She's Nonbinary, I didn't have like a specific festival in mind because I really just made it because I felt like I had to write then. But I wanted obviously, you know, to like go somewhere cool. I feel like you make it and you're like, I hope it goes somewhere cool.

[15:37] Jess McLeod: Um, so I think like Tribeca was very cool for us. I know like Blake, I mean, it's crazy for me to even be in this same conversation as Blake because Blake has such already had like such an amazing directing writing.

[15:50] Blake Winston Rice: It's true.

[15:50] Jess McLeod: And I pay to say this.

[15:52] Blake Winston Rice: I did, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[15:54] Jess McLeod: And I'm $200 richer and it's beautiful. Um so it's basically nothing for you.

[15:59] Blake Winston Rice: Um and but yeah, Blake's like so inspirational to me. The whole shorts block at Tribeca was like very, very strong. And yeah, uh that was so awesome to be a part of. I've never been to like a festival of that, I guess, ilk or like caliber. So I'm just happy to be here.

[16:19] Michelle Simone Miller: That was a really long one.

[16:20] Blake Winston Rice: Yeah, no, your whole, no, the whole the whole block was incredible, and it was really fun speaking to the other filmmakers as well. And then it was really fun moderating the Q&A after that last screening and just seeing just all the love in the community.

[16:35] Jess McLeod: I did.

[16:36] Blake Winston Rice: So great.

[16:37] Jess McLeod: He's great.

[16:38] Blake Winston Rice: It's wonderful. Um yeah, so I just uh okay. So going into that first bit where you're writing it, you have the script.

[16:48] Michelle Simone Miller: What going into the shooting process did you want to make sure you got right?

[16:53] Blake Winston Rice: I feel like with a lot of these short films, I interviewed uh Ben Thompson, the programming shorts director of um Tribeca.

[17:01] Michelle Simone Miller: Just a hard guy to get along with, just Ben's just like abrasive impossible to talk to.

[17:09] Blake Winston Rice: A chilling, a chilling personality. Just has no, like, just does not care about filmmakers.

[17:16] Jess McLeod: Nope.

[17:17] Blake Winston Rice: Like that's what I'm doing. I'm describing just yeah, yeah.

[17:21] Jess McLeod: He's the best.

[17:23] Blake Winston Rice: Um, but yeah, I remember he was saying, you know, and goes into putting these pro, you know, these programs together was a lot to do with how these shorts make you feel. And both of your shorts really moved people, moved me. Um, so I wanted to know going into it, obviously, you're not thinking to yourself specifically, like, I want to move this audience, but like what exactly do you hope happens, right? What's the main thing that you wanted people to get from it? And did that change over time? I know, Jess, for instance, you said that since making that, seeing it, and then now going into your feature, that may have changed, or maybe that one thing stood, you know, stayed the same. But is there one thing specifically you wanted people to feel or get from it or understand?

[18:09] Blake Winston Rice: I think, well, I am thinking about audience kind of from the jump. Like I'm really into that study. Like, and I think a lot of times filmmakers were thinking about making movies for movie makers. And I'm trying to, and I'm very much into studying the process of audiences, what and retaining audience intrigue. Um, so something to get out of DISC is just how wild of a ride and how much of an emotional turmoil and journey can and change can you put people through in 15 minutes? So being able to check kind of different genre boxes throughout, it was a goal of this one, and that kind of makes a dynamic ride for the audience. So that was always kind of, you know, how can we make them unsure of what's happening and make them ask some questions?

And when they're about to form their own assumptions, let's switch it up for them and make them maybe laugh, and then let's put some peril in there and let's put some harm in there, and then let's put some emotional strain in there, and let's cut that with laughs again. Now let's teach a lesson and let's get the warm and fuzzies in. And kind of tracking that was always part of the goal. And so in the prep process, like just making to think of the audience and how they'll respond to something was a big goal, and especially this subject matter and putting it right in front of their face was kind of at the forefront from the beginning.

[19:36] Jess McLeod: Like you wanted that shock value. You wanted the um a reveal, if you will, right?

[19:42] Blake Winston Rice: Like, yeah, I wanted the tension and the anxiety and the pressure and the build-up, and that build up being more intense than the actual reveal. Um I don't know if you remember our first one. We had bodies dropping, we got bodies dropping on the floor.

[19:57] Jess McLeod: I know.

[19:58] Blake Winston Rice: So that's an interesting one. It didn't happen on the third one, and I'm not saying but Ben, but Ben did give me a little disclaimer to say at the forefront, like if you're queasy about blood, you may leave, which I've never done before.

[20:11] Jess McLeod: I don't think he has a lot of things.

[20:12] Blake Winston Rice: Oh, there's a disguise. I had to give a disclaimer for the third one because it happened twice.

[20:17] Jess McLeod: Um what we're referring to is is uh two people got uh fainted, I think was the one one at the first screen, one at the second at the site of blood, or I think even at the repeat of blood.

[20:29] Blake Winston Rice: Um what do you think?

[20:33] Jess McLeod: Yeah, yes, that was the thing, is a thing now.

[20:37] Blake Winston Rice: Um this is probably another 20 minutes to eat up of your time, but uh did this happen at didn't didn't this premiere originally in Toronto? Am I making that up? Or was it just it did?

[20:48] Jess McLeod: It's right.

[20:50] Blake Winston Rice: Toronto's did that better.

[20:52] Jess McLeod: So I think the temperature people are dead inside.

[20:55] Blake Winston Rice: There's no one, they don't care.

[20:57] Jess McLeod: Uh the men are actually the men of fortitude.

[21:00] Blake Winston Rice: And the no, here's the thing.

[21:06] Jess McLeod: Here's the thing.

[21:08] Blake Winston Rice: Okay.

[21:08] Jess McLeod: Okay.

[21:09] Blake Winston Rice: Part of the psyche of the gym character is being squeamish, right?

[21:13] Jess McLeod: Right.

[21:14] Blake Winston Rice: And delivering that pressure in the film is a big part of it. And I am also squeamish. And part like I know I'm able to tap into something there because I know what it feels like to be in scenarios that you're like making the queasy. And so, but a lot of times the it's not the actual thing. Like giving blood to me, nightmare. But I'm more freaked out about going and sitting and waiting and then getting in the chair than the actual like needle in the arm. And that's like so building that anxiety was a big focus. And I think there's all other people who have that as well at different levels.

[21:53] Jess McLeod: And so we met, we statistically ran into a couple at Tribeca. They're good though.

[21:56] Blake Winston Rice: Um didn't happen at Toronto, right?

[22:00] Jess McLeod: Not that I'm aware of.

[22:01] Blake Winston Rice: No, we've seen a bunch of festivals. Um I think you're right. It might not be the squeamish part about blood, it might have been the combination of that with the buildup that you actually wanted to provide to people.

[22:15] Michelle Simone Miller: So it makes a lot of sense. It sounds it's really interesting, Blake, how much A you think of the audience, but B specifically the emotional roller coaster you want people to go through, like in a good way. Like I think you wanted people to kind of experience many different things as opposed to just like one thing in particular. Is that right?

[22:32] Blake Winston Rice: Totally, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

[22:35] Michelle Simone Miller: Um and then Jess, what about you? Was there something specific that you went into this with, went into shooting with, and did that change?

[22:46] Jess McLeod: Like, I really wish that I had thought about those things more. I think that, like, you know, I do I love the short for many reasons, and there are many things I would change, but I think the thing that I like the most about the short is it does really clearly communicate my feelings about that whole thing at that time, which is I was so mad and I was so mad to a degree that makes it I think funny to me.

[23:10] Jess McLeod: It was.

[23:11] Blake Winston Rice: And it was funny to me too.

[23:13] Jess McLeod: Like great certain parts.

[23:14] Jess McLeod: And I feel like other parts. That is that's I think what I was trying to do. I think if I could distill it into like a sentence, is I wanted people to feel what I was feeling and also be able to laugh at that. And I feel like mostly people are able to do that, which is great.

[23:31] Jess McLeod: Um, but I think like I've been really interested in the movie Some Like It Hot lately, uh, because I think that movie does it's so ahead of its time in so many ways, and it plays on like what I would love for movies that I make in the future to be able to do, which is kind of like what Blake is saying, like this sort of theme of like constant reversal, like what makes a movie trans is something I'm thinking a lot about. And I'm like, I think part of it is that like you never quite know, you can't tell on the surface what it's gonna end up being. And I think that that movie, even though it's made by a cis man, is sort of about transition in many ways.

[24:15] Blake Winston Rice: Yeah.

[24:15] Jess McLeod: And um, it really is like it's like constant reversal and constantly being like things are not how I thought they were, including genre, which is really cool. About that film. It's like a musical and then it's like a mystery, and then it's like a crime thriller, and it's like fuck that movie's so good. Um so I'm thinking about wanting to do that with more time and like more runway, like in a full feature. I think I would like to play with what Blake is describing of like that's a lot of version and like does that also lend itself, and again, this is a follow-up that I'm just coming up with, so bear with me.

[24:53] Jess McLeod: Um, does that also like lend itself to wanting people to leave the film having a particular uh sort of not feeling is the right word, but having a particular conclusion about the film, or do you want the ambiguity?

[25:11] Blake Winston Rice: I mean, I think of you were talking about approaching it as trans, but also like if you approach it with non-binary, then there's no label for it. There's no like one thing people have to leave with, and that's an interesting approach to filmmaking that I wonder if you also agree with.

[25:27] Jess McLeod: I think it's awesome for people to come away with different messages as long as they come away with something, like as long as they come away with a strong feeling in any direction, I think that's fine for me. Um I yes, but I don't want people to come away being like that was fine, like that's right. I don't want that. Um you want something, but you don't need it to be one thing, yeah.

[25:54] Blake Winston Rice: I think so. I feel like I'm to me, I think the best director working right now is Jane Show and Brun. I think like their work is so inspiring to me. And I feel like they do that really beautifully with their movies where it is like quite ambiguous. Um, and they'll say they're like, I know what the movie is about to me, but to other people, it's about many other things, and that's okay. But I feel like a lot of people have a strong opinion about the stuff they make, whether it's good or bad, or somewhere in between. I think um they make things that make people feel something, like Ben was saying, and that's really that's really inspiring. And I want to do that too.

[26:36] Jess McLeod: Yeah, me too. Me too. I mean, listen, I think I think it's an interesting thing to think about. It kind of reminds me of songwriters, right? That there's some songwriters that are like, let me tell you what my song's about. And then there's other songwriters that are very adamant that I'm like, it doesn't matter what mine's about, I know what it's about for me. It it it was definitely a moment in my life that I can tell you about if but I really I want you to connect with it, however, your personal experience connects with, and and that's a really interesting way of approaching art.

[27:02] Blake Winston Rice: Jess, did you want to say something? You look like you were on the I'm just jazzed by the combo, to be honest. I'm with it.

[27:09] Jess McLeod: I'm just into it. Um happy to hear that. I think that's I think that's a really cool way. I think as filmmakers, you get so much control as writer director specifically on what the vision is and sticking that landing. And then one of the favorite things for me is just like letting that out of the cage and seeing how people take it, like to Jess's point. Um some people are like, whoa, that in disc, I really love the slow shots of Jim looking out the window. And is that a reflection of masculinity and how he can't find his blah blah blah? And I love getting in the weeds on that. And then other people are like, that was really funny when he was in his underwear. And I also love that reaction. You know, like and and I think that's to the point of audience, is like you you open the doors for everyone to experience it and they experience it in different ways. Um so no, I'm I'm I'm I'm with it. That's why I was doing.

[28:02] Michelle Simone Miller: Both of you, both of you. I mean, is this an important part of making a short? But both of you, if I remember correctly, the whole thing took place in one location. Am I right?

[28:10] Jess McLeod: Mm-hmm.

[28:10] Blake Winston Rice: Yeah, right?

[28:11] Jess McLeod: Yes, both of yours.

[28:12] Michelle Simone Miller: So, you know, both of yours, there's a there's a going back and forth, you know, Jess, I think of going up and down the stairs. That was, I think, a huge part of it. Blake, you know, going into the bathroom, obviously, but then coming out into the into the living room, uh, the living it space, I wouldn't call it a living room, living space. Um, how much of that was part of it, right? The the movement, because I I asked about this during the QA um after the third screening. I remember really sort of paying attention to the pace of the film. And both of yours really had a particular pace, and I feel like the using the space helped with that. How did you guys think about pace going into it? How did you think about utilizing that one location?

[28:57] Jess McLeod: Yes.

[28:58] Blake Winston Rice: Okay. This was not on my list, by the way. This is just a really good question.

[29:00] Jess McLeod: You're freestyling, bring it.

[29:02] Blake Winston Rice: It's a really good question. Um I think I had a draft, like my first draft, it all took place just downstairs. And then I shot like a little pre-viz of that, and I was like, well, this is so boring and bad. So then I went back and I rewrote it. And uh then I found like a lot of fun stuff to do with like playing with sort of angles. Once we like brought the stairs into it, I was like, oh, there's so much like this great. And but there's so much like easy stuff just in like the way that we then block it of like having all of these different levels constantly throughout the thing. And I was like, that's so that's so interesting, and I didn't have that before. So I think like trying to use all parts of the space that you have if you're in one space, is uh a good thing to do. I and I didn't initially think of doing that, but then we did, and I'm glad that we did.

[29:56] Jess McLeod: Yeah.

[29:57] Blake Winston Rice: Yeah, I love I love that yours.

[29:59] Jess McLeod: Yeah.

[30:01] Blake Winston Rice: I love I love a couple argument, a nasty couple argument that's and what the the truth that I think you have in your short that I love when couples go at it is like is sometimes you're in an argument with someone that you person you love, whatever who you're with, like you can just you have to change rooms. Someone has to go to the bathroom during it. Someone has someone's in the middle of like folding laundry, you know, like you still don't you don't stand in a room and argue for two hours or half an afternoon. And there are these level changes, there are shifts, there are references in the dialogue that would not make sense to the audio, but they're finishing each other's sentences halfway through because they're working on the other thing and calling back other pain points in the relationship. And I just I loved all the I loved all that.

[30:42] Jess McLeod: Yeah, I loved all that um in yours, and I thought it was really truthful.

[30:47] Blake Winston Rice: Thanks, Blake.

[30:48] Jess McLeod: Thanks.

[30:49] Blake Winston Rice: Yeah. This is Blake's appreciation podcast, by the way.

[30:52] Jess McLeod: And we're gonna shout out all your work.

[30:54] Blake Winston Rice: Well this is lovely. If you want to keep going.

[30:58] Jess McLeod: Blake and Jess love each other, the podcast.

[30:59] Michelle Simone Miller: Um that's great. No, listen, I mean, community is super important, right? So you you meet people at these festivals that then you have uh I don't want to say colleagues, that's not the right word, but like other filmmakers that you can then connect with and and you know, and admire and to get inspired by and touch base on, ask questions and appreciate each other in this in this instance. Um, Blake, what about yours? I I I felt like there, you know, s both of you had this, uh sort of this uh I would describe it as a crescendo almost where like there's there's a big moment that everything is leading up to in a way. Um maybe Blake with yours, there's a little bit of leading up to it, and then there's also something else, and then there's also something else.

Like you feel like there's a large, like a like a long sort of build-up, and then you kind of get hit a couple times. That was my experience. Um what was it like for you in in developing the pace of that as you're shooting and then as you're editing?

[31:53] Blake Winston Rice: I think uh again, like from before stepping on set. I knew and we knew the beginning, middle, and end of this thing, and when it ramps up and when it's when it really crescendoes. So that was always part of the design. Um I think like I probably in the writing process literally draw a map and check points out. There's also this like very, there's just like right. Have you seen this? The like the circle, the like storytelling circle of diagram where like everyone it like tracks like the arc of a story.

[32:30] Jess McLeod: Story arc.

[32:30] Blake Winston Rice: Yeah, like the story arc, like with a little not the curve, like little, there's like a circle. Someone just showed this to me for the first time, by the way. I'm not like using it, and I don't know. I need to do that. Look up the search stories.

[32:44] Jess McLeod: Is it like the one where it's like you need go search, find, take, return, change? Is that it?

[32:50] Blake Winston Rice: This is something that in school I would have nodded and like like said I understood in class. And then I would have just tried to make a thousand stories and failed until I figured out what that was already doing the same way. Um I will look into that. I found a couple, so I'm gonna have to like explore it more. But no, I think we're just tracking, honestly, like what kept the pace up. Um you get I kind of trap everything into a 15 minute box and figure out where the beginning, middle, and end is in that, and then how to defeat those tropes or ask questions at the right time and then deliver info throughout it. Um it makes you sound really formulaic, and it's not that much math to me. It's a little more gut feeling.

[33:29] Jess McLeod: I get that.

[33:31] Blake Winston Rice: No, I get what you're saying. I think I think also, you know, especially with filmmaking, a lot of it's like know the rules and then figure out how to break them. So, like if certain things are formulaic, then you can kind of then play around as an artist and creative and like stretch certain things out because the structure is still there. Like you said, the beginning, middle, and end is very clear. That was a big try not to be formulaic in the characters and in the male-female dynamic and not being tropey there was also a goal of like making them individual humans more so than like this is all men and this is all women. Like that was not a goal. Um, there's a lot of opportunity there and a ton to talk to, though, but the more I focused on the Alex character and the Carrie character being themselves, it just supported the the male-female dynamic, more and made it feel more authentic.

And also I feel like more jokes play when I'm not trying to tell you this is what guys are like and this is what girls are like, which was a big part, or like this is what reproductive health is like. I wasn't really even aiming at it a big stance of that as well. And I think leaning into the characters and leaning away from and trying to defeat some tropey stuff was a big goal too.

[34:45] Jess McLeod: Yeah, I feel like so much about what works so well in that movie is just that these people are so obviously like specific, like they're so specific. Like the just him putting on the lanyard. I was like, this is awesome. The lanyard clothes on is so awesome. It's so funny.

[35:06] Blake Winston Rice: Thank you.

[35:07] Jess McLeod: And there's yeah, there's just like a lot of little like specificities to both of them that you don't explain at all, but you're just kind of like, oh yeah, these are people, and that makes it easier for me to believe that this is happening.

[35:18] Blake Winston Rice: Um yeah. Thank you. That's beautifully said.

[35:22] Michelle Simone Miller: Well, I have a lot to think about there, but I'm just gonna ask you guys the last question, which is it's true, which is uh it's a great segue. I'm really good at transitions. Um let's do it. Right. So what what's next, right? So you kind of uh mentioned a little bit to me about what you're working on now. Obviously both of your films don't just add to Tribeca, they're going to other things as well. If you could talk a little bit about that and then anything you're working on and pre-production now.

[35:51] Jess McLeod: Um yeah, she's non-binary, really like we started in Cleveland and then we went to Tribeca, and then we've got a bunch of other ones kind of lined up, which is exciting. And so we're kind of beginning the festival run on our end, and then yeah, the feature I'm working on a lot now, and we're kind of starting to have some casting conversations that are interesting, and I'm excited. I'm I'm excited to see where those go.

[36:20] Blake Winston Rice: Um, and we did the Tribeca creators market for the feature as well, which was really awesome. And Tribeca put together a very it was like a very productive market. It was really fun. Um, and uh yeah, and I hope we'll get to do a couple more of those as the year goes on and we forget.

[36:39] Michelle Simone Miller: Would you also be in it, Jess? Would you be in the future?

[36:41] Jess McLeod: I think so. I feel like I mean, I'm really so open. Like if Emma Corin wants to do it, I mean, who am I to say no? You know, they're a better me than I could ever be, I think. Um, but I feel like probably uh I will end up doing it just because I don't know how fair it would be for me to like try to lead some like shepherd somebody else through like my own experience and I'm gonna be looking at it through so through the lens of my own experience because I can't not do that I don't think I don't think I'm like good at compartmentalizing in that way about this particular story.

[37:18] Jess McLeod: So yeah, I think I probably will. I think I probably will just—are you more, if you have to pick this maybe annoying cliché answer—but is it acting over writing, directing? Is it writing over acting? Is it directing over—like what's the all three ratio? I think probably writing is what I feel the best about. Directing I feel like is second for me and that I really love doing it and I want to be better at it, but I don't feel like I'm very good at it yet. And then acting is like just because I've been doing it for so long, I feel a little bit like last. I'm just not excited by it really anymore. Unless it's my friends' movie, then I want to do all the movies that my friends make and I get really excited about doing that.

But like day to day, I think I'm just much more like stimulated. It just feels like I haven't been this challenged in a very long time. Like I think I made the first short, I was like, "Oh my god, I don't know anything," and I was like, "Yeah, yay, I don't know anything, this is great." So I'm trying to like follow that feeling, but I still have fun acting. I still have fun, I guess, yeah.

[38:33] Michelle Simone Miller: What makes—I mean, not to get psychological, but I'm curious, why don't you think you're a good director? And what would it take for you to feel that way? And what do you struggle with just in general as well? Like, yeah, just, you know, keep it a low short two minutes or whatever.

[38:49] Jess McLeod: Oh my god, so much. I struggle with so many things. What do I feel like I'm not good at? I think that I just—writing, because it can sort of happen in a vacuum. I don't think I'm great at being able to communicate visual ideas yet. Like I think I have things happen in my brain, but I don't think I'm awesome at being able to like explain or even put together like a treatment. I take a long time to do a treatment, and I think it's just because I'm learning, but I feel like I come at it from a very—not like when I'm acting, I really desperately am trying not to think about how it looks. And I think it's just a different—it's totally different way to approach it that I really love. But it's like when I'm watching a movie, I'm not inherently thinking about shots unless I'm watching it for a second or third time.

I can go like, "Oh, I really like the look of this," but I'm trying to like almost reverse engineer the experience of going, "Why do I like that?" Or what is this communicating to me? And try to get a little bit more heady about why I like things so I can then explain to people why I like them instead of going, "I like this," and then someone goes, "Okay, like for what reason, or why would we put it here?" And I'm like, "I can't really explain it. It just feels good," which is not helpful.

[40:24] Michelle Simone Miller: You know, it's funny because to me, that sounds like you have a very strong vision and voice. And so, yes, you're trying to figure out, I guess, how to communicate that as efficiently and effectively as possible. But it's so cool that you have your vision, and it's so cool that you have—even just saying like, "I like it," like that's awesome that you have that because a lot of people don't. A lot of people are still figuring out that, "I don't know why I like it." "Oh, I'm gonna go to this now, and I'm gonna change perspectives here, and I'm gonna change," and you have that strong feeling and gut feeling, and I think that's so cool.

[40:59] Jess McLeod: That gap will shorten so quickly. It will, yeah. I think you have your taste and your goal and everything that you're doing here, and it's that gap. It's like every bartender can make a drink; not everyone can like host the room and make it a good time, make it a fun thing. Like you can make it a good time, make a fun thing. If you're just the technical stuff and you feel like it's not there yet, just the explanation of it, there you go, it'll come. It'll come.

[41:27] Jess McLeod: And I think like that's also something that I do feel like I'm really willing to like fail. Like, I think that that's like something that I'm good at with because of my acting background and because of like improv and comedy. It's like I'm so willing to fuck up and be like—and have it be seen. And I think that's like a nice quality when you're starting out, and that's a really great quality. I have to remind myself of that quality because sometimes I feel like I'm always just—I don't want to say perfectionist, that's not my favorite word—but just like, you know, hard on myself, and I want to work on my ability to fail, and I think that's something I'm inviting more into my life.

[42:10] Blake Winston Rice: Take an improv class.

[42:12] Jess McLeod: Yeah, I haven't done that in a while. Maybe I'll do another one of that.

[42:15] Blake Winston Rice: Yeah.

[42:17] Jess McLeod: Yeah, it's fair. On the way up, it's so hard to see that all the rejection is actually a good thing because you're trying to pay bills, you're trying to make life work out, and not everything is film related, but all the no's, if you can keep at it, I think they're there for a reason. They do make you stronger and teach you better lessons, to be honest.

[42:41] Blake Winston Rice: Yeah. And like also all of the movies that you've seen that you're like, "Oh my god, this movie is perfect. I can't ever make something like that." It's like they failed so much to get there. Or like they reworked the whole narrative in that. It's just like you don't know actually all of the things that had to happen to make that thing that you love so much. And I think that's also hard to see when you're doing it. Like everyone else must know more than me, and they must all have started in a place where they knew 90% more than I do right now. And it's like, "Oh, I don't actually know that that is true." It's just our imaginations making all that up.

[43:21] Michelle Simone Miller: Blake, how about you? Can you tell me a little bit about the life of DISC and like where—what you're working on and doing right now?

[43:28] Blake Winston Rice: I'm quitting, I'm selling insurance. I'm never going back. I'm gonna delete my Wi-Fi tonight. I understand technology. I'm gonna delete the Wi-Fi and I'm going to go on the inner tubes and bake my own internet. It was great speaking to you. That was great to have—no, okay, okay. What do I have next? We have a couple more festivals coming up. DISC started at Toronto last fall, so it's been kind of doing its thing from now until then. So we kind of are at the end of our festival run. But we have a couple left, like through the end of the summer.

[44:07] Michelle Simone Miller: Didn't you get labeled like some sort of like highly anticipated, like something like a best director of the fall? What was this title?

[44:18] Blake Winston Rice: We got from IndieWire. Yes, it's called Best. I didn't know. There has to be—there has to be like you were on a list. Now I have to find it.

[44:30] Blake Winston Rice: Yes, but it was like fall films. But the—no, that's not it. For anybody not watching on video, Blake's face to watch.

[44:40] Blake Winston Rice: Look, I was labeled the King of the King of Kings. That's my job as a podcast host is to make you feel comfortable and then like take the rug from under you and then make you blush. For all the listeners that are not watching the video, I'm totally cool and chill and grounded and not in a totally normal pigment right now. It was—IndieWire was very nice and gave us a nice quote after Toronto about DISC, which was very sweet and flattering. I'm gonna put this on the show notes for everyone to see because it is very cool. And it's on IndieWire's best of list, but there's one director making them who should be on your radar in 2025. It's Blake Winston Rice.

[45:25] Michelle Simone Miller: So yes, everyone's okay. So these did label you King of Kings.

[45:31] Blake Winston Rice: Respectfully shut. No, we've been—DISC has been just like all shorts. What I love about shorts is not only like the experience of doing the festivals and meeting everyone else and the networking side, but also how it gets you closer to the next goal. And for me, the next goal is working on these upcoming features, and this has had a big role in that. And it's been very cool. Like I think I'll never stop doing shorts in a way. Like I always—I have two more I might do. We have some ones that I'm producing now that are doing festivals, and casting my debut feature right now with a company called Wild Atlantic Pictures, which is very crazy, and learning how the casting process works is insane.

[46:21] Michelle Simone Miller: Do you have a casting director?

[46:23] Blake Winston Rice: We do. And so that's cool and helpful and exciting and challenging and all the things. And in the meantime, we'll be hitting more festivals, and maybe I'll shoot another short this August. I can't—I'm not sure yet. And always writing and shopping around scripts. That's kind of what shorts have put me in the position of, which was always the goal to circle back. I never knew a way into the business, and it always just felt like the only way in was you have to make enough popping enough shorts to get a shot. And for like eight to maybe ten years, I was trying to chip away, and then luckily it happened. So I feel really motivated to not also let it slip and to take advantage of it and stay kind of hungry and super proactive.

[47:19] Michelle Simone Miller: Well, that's not a spot to end on. I don't know what it—guys, bonus round, rapid fire. This was a lot longer than I intended. Thank you guys for taking the time to speak with me and a little bit longer than I intended as well. Thank you guys for just being so candid and for creating work that moves people. And I was moved by both of your films, and I appreciated the work that you made, and I'm excited to see more of the work that you will make as well. Thank you for coming on the podcast, guys.

[47:53] Jess McLeod: Thanks so much for having us.

[47:54] Blake Winston Rice: Thanks, Michelle. Your questions were really awesome.

[47:57] Jess McLeod: I'm so glad. I feel like I've just had a little masterclass from Blake, so he's gonna hate that. I'm gonna go take notes after this.

[48:04] Blake Winston Rice: And that's part of it. I love it. I love it.

[48:08] Jess McLeod: It was my goal the whole time, actually, was to get compliments.

[48:13] Blake Winston Rice: I think Jess is the best next change accountant, and anyone listening should work with me.

[48:19] Jess McLeod: Enough. Enough. Enough.

[48:22] Blake Winston Rice: Agreed. Agreed.

[48:24] Michelle Simone Miller: All right, thanks, guys. Take care, everybody.

[48:27] Michelle Simone Miller: Thank you so much for listening to Mentors on the Mic. If you enjoyed the episode, please share it with a friend in entertainment you know would love it. Let me know what you've learned or what stayed with you on our Instagram at Mentors on the Mic. I love reading your messages. You can also find me at Michelle Simone Miller on Instagram. On both accounts, I'll be sharing even more information about our mentors. Talk to someone about what you learned today who would really appreciate it and send them the episode. Also, if you love the show, please go ahead and leave us a rating and review on iTunes. It really makes a huge difference in growing this. It makes it easier for people to find our podcast, and I love reading your reviews. So thank you so much, and I'll see you next week.