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[0:00] Charlie Russell: Welcome to the Mischief Makers podcast. I'm your host, Charlie Russell, and this is your podcast for all things mischief. Today's guest is Ed Zanders, composer, lyricist, and musician, and because Mischief has opened its first ever musical Thespians, we thought he should be our guest. It's about to go on tour all around the UK, and we'll have more details on that later, but first, welcome Ed.

[0:36] Ed Zanders: Hello, Charlie. Very nice to be here.

[0:37] Charlie Russell: It's very nice to have you, and it's nice to see you, darling.

[0:40] Ed Zanders: Well, likewise.

[0:42] Charlie Russell: So, I've known Ed for quite a long time, but maybe our listeners haven't. So, Ed, could you start by telling the people who listen to the podcast where your sort of mischief journey began?

[0:55] Ed Zanders: My mischief journey began, actually, before you were known as Mischief. When I was 15 years old, I went to the Edinburgh Fringe with a show that my teacher had written, and it was a big cast musical, and we all went up to the Edinburgh Fringe for a couple of weeks, and we were deciding what to see, and we saw this show called Lights, Camera, Improvise.

[1:15] Charlie Russell: By the scat pack.

[1:17] Ed Zanders: By the scat pack, and we went to see it because we wanted to see some improv, and it blew our tiny minds, honestly. We just thought it was the best thing we'd ever seen in the world. It was the funniest thing, and actually, it was your first one.

[1:30] Charlie Russell: It was.

[1:30] Ed Zanders: It was the very first Lights, Camera, Improvise in Edinburgh, and Harry Kershaw was Oscar, I think.

[1:37] Charlie Russell: Oh, wow.

[1:38] Ed Zanders: Yeah, he was in the chair, and Nancy was playing Oscar's mum offstage, I think. It was like an early, rough version of what later became Mischief Movie Night.

[1:49] Charlie Russell: Oh, that'll be back in the day when we had a VHS player.

[1:52] Ed Zanders: Yeah, quite possibly.

[1:52] Ed Zanders: And we used to say there was a tape already set up in our VHS player, and oh my goodness, and I remember this one very specifically. Yeah, 2009, Sea Central, I think it was, and because we were worried that we weren't going to sell any tickets, and then we'd sold loads, and it was because there was a school group, and it was a rom-com, and it was named after your friend.

[2:18] Charlie Russell: Yes, it gets slightly strange here. So basically, it was named after a friend called Lewis Manser, and it was a love story. It was Manser and Becky, that was it. It was two people in our class called Manser and Becky, and it was based off their, it was like an imagined love story of them. And then the slightly strange thing is that I would then went on to write a musical about this guy called Lewis Manser that I then put on at my school a year later. So it all gets weirdly connected, and yet at the same time, you guys improvised a musical based off this guy's life when I saw it in Edinburgh. There's many connections, strange connections there.

[2:50] Ed Zanders: Gosh, that is weird.

[2:52] Charlie Russell: I know, and then basically, we all went and I had like photos with you guys afterwards, and in our heads, you know, when you're sort of 15 years old, and you're seeing people who've just moved out of school, like moved out of home, and they're at college and doing stuff in the real world, like it just seems so impossibly cool and amazing, and we just thought you guys were incredible. So we still have that little photo of us all together, and it was a lovely first meeting. And then from then, sort of actually ended up doing improv shows back at my school as well. I sort of copied you guys and did my own sort of improvised musical back at school, and Dave Hearn came to do a little workshop with us.

[3:29] Ed Zanders: He did it.

[3:30] Charlie Russell: Yeah, in our little village just outside of Cambridge. And so I did a bit of improv there and it stayed in touch. And then when I went to study at Guildhall, I was in the same year as Niall Ransom.

[3:40] Ed Zanders: Of course.

[3:41] Charlie Russell: And so it was sort of through that connection that I ended up going and playing for you guys properly in what then became Mischief Movie Night.

[3:48] Ed Zanders: Yes, because Niall going to Guildhall helped us out a lot, because it also brought us Tom Platt.

[3:53] Ed Zanders: Yes, that's true.

[3:53] Charlie Russell: Wonderful Tom Platt.

[3:55] Ed Zanders: The wonderful Tom Platt. I remember, and you started to come and play with us, and it took, you didn't tell us straight away, by the way, I was in that school group that watched you in 2009.

[4:04] Ed Zanders: Did I not?

[4:05] Charlie Russell: When you did tell me, my tiny mind was blown.

[4:08] Ed Zanders: But I remember, and you were playing keys for Lights, Camera, Improvise.

[4:14] Ed Zanders: Yes.

[4:14] Charlie Russell: Which then became Mischief Movie Night, and you still do.

[4:17] Ed Zanders: I do, yeah, for lots of different iterations over the years. And then ended up writing some music for your amazing Wonder Woman show as well at the Edinburgh Fringe, whatever that is, four years ago now.

[4:27] Charlie Russell: Oh my gosh, is it really?

[4:28] Ed Zanders: Yeah.

[4:29] Charlie Russell: No. 2022.

[4:31] Ed Zanders: Yeah.

[4:32] Charlie Russell: Yes, Ed was the composer and lyricist for Charlie Russell Aims to Please, and particularly that opening number.

[4:40] Ed Zanders: It was something.

[4:41] Charlie Russell: Charlie Russell Aims to Please.

[4:42] Ed Zanders: Has a bit of a Thespian's Edge to it, you know, when you look back on it.

[4:45] Charlie Russell: Really?

[4:45] Ed Zanders: Has a bit of a showbiz Xander's Edge to it, Charlie.

[4:48] Charlie Russell: Oh my goodness. Also, we had fun in Edinburgh a couple of years before, when our mutual friend, Callum Finlay, wrote a play called Piano Play, which you then starred in, and I helped it go up to Edinburgh. That was separate from Mischief, but we've known each other a very long time.

[5:04] Ed Zanders: A very long time, yeah.

[5:04] Charlie Russell: It's been very nice. But when did you first meet John? Back when you started playing, well, when you saw us on stage and then...

[5:12] Ed Zanders: Yeah, I first met John, yeah, exactly through all the ways that I met you, the rest of you, I guess. But the first time I started talking about working with John...

[5:24] Charlie Russell: And this, by the way, sorry, is Jonathan Sayer, who has written the book for Thespians.

[5:28] Ed Zanders: Yes, and some of the other lyrics as well.

[5:29] Charlie Russell: Oh, of course.

[5:30] Ed Zanders: And basically, the way that John and I started working together was in 2018, we were doing a movie night tour around the UK, and John had the idea for Thespians. And I always think in a musical, fundamentally, the idea just has to be good. You can build amazing things on top of it and have wonderful lyrics and amazing sets, but if the idea, if it isn't immediately just like, oh, that's a really good idea for a show, you're sort of a bit in trouble. And John, to his credit, has come up with, I just think, a fantastic idea for a show. The idea of someone inventing acting, or the idea of a world where acting didn't exist, and the idea comedically of someone very quickly inventing all of these modern tropes that we understand, like it's such a fantastic, rich idea and has so many possibilities to it, that I think I was immediately excited by that.

[6:24] Charlie Russell: Did he originally intend it to be a musical? Because I remember reading it in a dressing room.

[6:29] Ed Zanders: That was a musical. That was a musical. I have a recording of it.

[6:32] Charlie Russell: What was that musical idea?

[6:33] Ed Zanders: John and I will both admit it wasn't the best rendering of it, certainly on my part. I think I've developed a bit in those few years, hopefully, touch wood.

[6:46] Charlie Russell: Oh, we're about to find out.

[6:48] Ed Zanders: I know. But it was okay. But I think we were finding our feet, and we're finding our way into the comedic language of it. And basically, we had a reading that was good. But it was shelved for a little bit. And then John ended up getting a commission and wanted to reinvestigate it. And that was when he got back in touch with me. And that was where it was like, it wasn't totally sure whether it was going to be a play or a musical. So in a sense, he basically auditioned me, he got me to write a new opening number for this treatment, this new treatment that he developed for this commission. And then from there, I wrote an opening number, obviously steering it towards a musical.

[7:36] Ed Zanders: Yeah, like, if this is good enough, it becomes a musical and I create myself a job. John was slower on the process of accepting that it was a musical, in the sense that he really liked the opening number. But then, and then we kept writing songs for it. But I think it would have been quite strange if we'd had the opening number I'd written and it not become a musical, then become a play, it would have been quite strange. So I think I think it's good that it's become a musical. And we found a rhythm and we really enjoy writing together. And it's worked out really well.

[8:07] Charlie Russell: And also, I think this is an example for anybody listening who, well, I suppose who does anything, but specifically makes work theatre, musicals, comedy. It's nice to hear you say, you know, I don't think it was brilliant when we started, like it was a good idea, as you say, but then it has grown, the idea has changed.

[8:27] Ed Zanders: Well, and again, to John's credit, he's very good at taking feedback. And he went around very selflessly and egolessly, and just asked people's advice that he respected. And I think the main thing was it was there were lots of jokes, but the characters, and some of the music as well, wasn't very characterful. We maybe it could have been sort of more that more of a sense of community, like who these people are. And basically, he went away and came up with the most amazing set of characters who you really care about, and the most fantastic plot and really witty, inventive. And I just really respect that, that he didn't sort of feel dejected, he didn't take it personally that he went away, reworked and came back with this thing that's so vibrant and exciting. And it works really well. And that's the version that we based this current iteration on. He's come up with some great characters, really fun to write for.

[9:22] Charlie Russell: Yeah, I mean, and I think that's it as well. Like, it's knowing that if you've gone to people you trust, and who you know, are kind, then the feedback is a gift, not sort of a criticism, and not a reflection on you as an individual. You're just like, brilliant, like, take it, use it. Brilliant. And the shows, we've already talked about the shows you've done before with Mischief. So we influenced you, obviously.

[9:43] Ed Zanders: Of course, of course. But who are your, I sort of know this, I think, but who are your musical influences? When you're writing a musical, or any music? I think it'd be really nice to hear because it might send some people, oh, I like that too. Or they might listen to something they've never heard of before.

[10:05] Ed Zanders: Yes. Well, you're probably alluding to the fact that I'm a big fan of Stephen Sondheim.

[10:10] Charlie Russell: I am alluding to that fact. Yes.

[10:13] Ed Zanders: Who was a bit of a hero of mine, an amazing writer. And yeah, like one of my musical heroes. And, and it's influenced me a great deal, not always in style, although sometimes in style, but mainly in his approach to writing and the way that he's sort of no nonsense way of writing this all about the character and what they're feeling. And that you channel what you want to say through the character. At all times, you always go back to how would that person express that. So if this person is quite erratic, their music might be a bit erratic, or if they're very calm and steady, their music might be calm and steady. All those kinds of decisions are based off that kind of stuff. And the fun is playing these different characters off against each other.

[10:54] Charlie Russell: So rather than the plot or the story structure necessarily dictating which song you have now and what style it is, you know, you obviously, I imagine you consider those things, but you're saying it's the it's character driven.

[11:00] Ed Zanders: Yes, definitely. Sometimes I work that way too much to my detriment that I get so into the character. And I imagine what would they say next? What would they say next? And you create a song that is very coherent and works really well as a character piece but actually doesn't serve the plot doesn't get you from point A to point B. And so you do have to then

[11:55] Ed Zanders: To work out why they're singing or why a song might benefit that moment or that person. Why does that person have to express themselves like that? Why do they have to sing that music? And if you answer the why question, that's the thing that takes the most time. If you figure out why they're singing and you have a really genuine reason to sing. The music I view, and it sounds strange, is the sort of the little bit at the end that just ties everything up. That's just the thing that results from the main thing, which is working out why is this person singing to this person? What do they need from them? What are they trying to convey? And if you really sort that out and you come up with a great reason.

And there are a couple of songs in the show that have like a concept to them. A really clear sense of someone has a discovery in the middle of the song and then they are changed and their music is changed. If you come up with that beforehand, then the music kind of just works itself out.

[12:42] Charlie Russell: Wow. Are there any on that? Are there any songs in particular that you, I mean, I'm sure you're proud of the whole thing. You should be, but any of your favourites?

[12:51] Ed Zanders: There's a song that Atlas sings in the second act that is a ballad. And it's about Atlas trying to say, I love you to Thespis. And he struggles to do that. And so a flute in the orchestra plays the word I love you instead. So there's a little gap where he would sing the word I love you. And it's put in the orchestra, obviously to imply the fact that it is there in his head, but he can't verbalize it. And the journey of the song is him using acting, this new technology that's just been invented by Thespis to play the part of someone who would have the courage to say I love you. And then when he sings, I love you in this amazing, big musical climax in the middle of the song, it's such a release of emotion because it's someone who isn't allowed to have emotions or doesn't allow himself to speak emotionally, to let the floodgate open.

And it always touches me when Luke does it because I can sort of relate to that. And I think probably most people can relate to that at some point, just of feeling repressed in some way or feeling too scared to put yourself on the line. And then when he does do that, it's a wonderful moment. But that's exactly what I'm talking about. It was a lovely moment when I worked out in my head how to get from not saying I love you to I love you, and that he would use acting and that he would swap his sandals with the sort of person who would be able to do that, or that he would become a leading man. He's a quirky side character who for that one song becomes a leading man. He changes his own casting sort of thing.

[14:19] Charlie Russell: Absolutely. And that's what's interesting in a song is when someone changes through the song and they're different at the end from the beginning.

[14:26] Ed Zanders: Yeah. Wow, I cannot wait. I am so very excited. And also we talk about that all the time, sort of like quite common. And I don't know, like see it on Instagram and stuff, psychology, like main character energy or making yourself not the side character and realising everyone's the main character of their own story. And actually Atlas maybe isn't even the main character in his own story. He's got to like, I can't wait. I can't wait.

[14:56] Charlie Russell: And have you enjoyed working with the cast?

[14:58] Ed Zanders: Oh, they're great. They're such a talented bunch. And the care that they've put in is the most touching thing. Like, you know, you never want to assume that other people are going to work on your material as hard as you've worked on it as well. Because, you know, it's your baby, you're the one that's going to, you feel, you fear, you're the person who's going to love it the most. And actually for people to come in and put the amount of work that they put in, it's just amazing. Like they've made it so much better than I dreamed it could have been.

[15:25] Charlie Russell: Oh gosh, wow. Is this the first main musical you've had staged?

[15:31] Ed Zanders: Yes. Yeah. At this level, the last full big musical I had staged was when I was 17 years old. So it's been a while.

[15:43] Charlie Russell: Wow. So are you feeling a bit of pressure?

[15:47] Ed Zanders: I am. And yet at the same time, I feel like John and I have worked very hard. And I think when you feel like you've applied yourself and you've done your best, whatever happens, good or bad, whatever the reactions of others, you sort of know internally that, oh, I gave that a good go. I think I would feel more frustrated or more nervous if I felt like I'd cut too many corners.

[16:14] Charlie Russell: Yeah. Do you know what I mean?

[16:15] Ed Zanders: I do know what you mean.

[16:17] Charlie Russell: Do you feel that when you're performing as well?

[16:17] Ed Zanders: Yes. Yeah, I really do. Like when I'm, the difference that I've had sort of a change in my own career and my approach to my performances where I used to do it needing to hear at the end from somebody else, you're really good. You're a good actor. You did a good job. And learning that I can't, it's not like that. You can't do it like that. If you know you've done enough work, if you are happy with it, if you can really look yourself in the mirror and be like, did I work as hard as I could have and as sort of efficiently as I could have, or was I lazy and not do the work? Then if you can say yes, you just leave everything up to everybody else. You know, it's a matter of opinion. It's subjective.

But if you know deep down, oh my gosh, I really haven't learned my lines. Then yeah, of course you're way more scared because you sat there knowing you're kind of a fraud and you're faking it. But if you can, yeah, if you can trust in yourself that you've done enough, it's actually quite freeing. But you do have to develop the ability to know when you have, because I think you can sometimes place that bar so far away from yourself that there's this like perfect idea of I could have worked 10 hours more and just not slept. I mean, have you ever felt like that where you're like, oh, I could do more, I could do more, but actually like you've got to decide, no, I need to sleep now or this is enough.

[17:42] Ed Zanders: Yeah, definitely. And there, of course, always going to be little corners where you think, oh, that could be cleaner on my end. You think, oh gosh, that could be cleaner. That lyric could land better. You know, you're always going to have that when you're watching something. I think because I'm doing the orchestrations and all the copying, basically like all the music department work that would normally be done by quite a few people, I probably slightly foolishly am doing myself. I'm just so tired that I just feel like, you know, that's enough. I feel like I've done quite a lot.

[18:21] Charlie Russell: Yeah. And I think you have and you know, deep down, it's not out of, as you say, like avoiding doing any hard work or cutting any corners. That's brilliant. So we want to ask all of our guests a few different questions. We'd like to know, as this is the first musical that Mischief has done, what is the first musical you ever saw? Is that, does that grammatically correct? What is the first musical you saw? I saw, yes. In the theatre.

[18:49] Ed Zanders: Yeah, I can answer that. I saw basically a string of Amtram musicals at my local school hall. Really? And they were just amazing. They sort of cemented a bit of a love of theatre. And then I ended up doing some of those musicals and not even playing leads, you know, like playing Salvation Army worker in Guys and Dolls at the back. And I just thought it was the best thing in the world. Like tonight, I'm going to be a Salvation Army worker in Guys and Dolls. You know, the idea of doing something that was so separate from my normal mundane school life, the idea that adults would put makeup on and have fun and play around and pretend to be other people was very appealing. And it still is. I mean, it obviously had a big effect on you watching your teachers dress up as all those different characters.

[19:45] Charlie Russell: And what was your first job in theatre or musicals or music?

[19:45] Ed Zanders: That's a good question. I guess it's just playing keyboards on musicals in London. So I studied at Guildhall. And throughout that time, just started, the dream was to write musicals, but then also to what we call depping on musicals. So in the West End, every instrument in the West End will have a main player and then they'll have a list of maybe 10 or more depths. And your way into the West End as a player, as a performer is to get on a depth list. And that was my dream. And by my late 20s, I'd done that. And I still do. I still go and play on different shows.

[20:19] Charlie Russell: What shows do you play on, Ed?

[20:20] Ed Zanders: Mostly Les Mis, Into the Woods and Operation Mincemeat at the moment.

[20:24] Charlie Russell: Wow.

[20:25] Ed Zanders: And it's really fun because you just get to jump in in a way you wouldn't as an actor and just do a different show in a different evening, sometimes different parts within the same show. It's a bit like being a swing. It's really fun.

[20:38] Charlie Russell: And Into the Woods is Sondheim, right?

[20:40] Ed Zanders: Oh, yes. I really enjoy doing that.

[20:42] Charlie Russell: I bet you do. I really want to see that one. And it's Keys, right?

[20:45] Ed Zanders: Yeah. Yeah.

[20:46] Charlie Russell: That's so cool.

[20:46] Ed Zanders: So yeah, doing that kind of stuff.

[20:47] Charlie Russell: And you've toured around the world with doing music and...

[20:50] Ed Zanders: Yeah. Yeah.

[20:51] Charlie Russell: What was your job when you went to China?

[20:55] Ed Zanders: I went to Taiwan with cats.

[20:56] Charlie Russell: Taiwan with cats.

[20:57] Ed Zanders: With cats, of all things, which was great fun. And it's really fun to play. And then Les Mis last year, we went to Japan. I've been to Madrid and lots of other places.

[21:07] Charlie Russell: Yes. So musicals have a wide reach.

[21:09] Ed Zanders: Yeah. There are jobs. There are jobs in music.

[21:14] Charlie Russell: Okay. Considering Thespians now, when thinking about how to describe it, what's the first word that comes to mind?

[21:19] Ed Zanders: Hilarious.

[21:22] Charlie Russell: Hilarious.

[21:24] Ed Zanders: It is really funny.

[21:26] Charlie Russell: I can't take sole credit for that. John must take most of the credit for that.

[21:29] Ed Zanders: It is really funny. And the cast, they just deliver it brilliantly. And it was so lovely last night just watching people laugh. I mean, you must find this. It's lovely to look out and just see a room full of people having a great time.

[21:42] Charlie Russell: It is nice.

[21:44] Ed Zanders: It really is. You're like, oh, you've just given people a bit of joy. And that's quite a privilege, really.

[21:52] Charlie Russell: Okay. Thespians is all about ancient Greece. So in ancient Greece, there were gods of all types of things. Gods of wine, gods of war, gods of love. If you were a Greek god or goddess, what would you like to be the god of?

[22:07] Ed Zanders: It would have to be god of piano.

[22:09] Charlie Russell: The god of piano?

[22:10] Ed Zanders: It's not very sexy.

[22:12] Charlie Russell: Oh, I don't know about that.

[22:14] Ed Zanders: But I think I'd rock that. I think I'd rock that.

[22:16] Charlie Russell: Oh, you'd be the god of piano, toga.

[22:19] Ed Zanders: Yeah. A flowing toga. There was a moment where we thought maybe the musicians in this would have to wear flowing togas, but it didn't work out.

[22:27] Charlie Russell: Did that get vetoed?

[22:28] Ed Zanders: Quite possibly.

[22:31] Charlie Russell: Well, I cannot wait to watch it. We're so excited. And Mischief is very lucky to have you. Ed, thank you so much for coming on the Mischief Makers podcast.

[22:40] Ed Zanders: Thank you, Charlie, for having me.

[22:41] Charlie Russell: And thank you all for listening. Goodbye.