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[0:00] Mark Peikert: The 1962 film is where it all began. That's when the conversations about Gypsy and Rose turned to, well, she's not Merman. Or more damningly, she can't sing it like Merman. To which star Rosalind Russell seemed to square her shoulders, cock her head, and admit defeat. How else to explain her anti-Mame light performance here, or the reliance on Lisa Kirk's singing voice? But is staying fairly faithful to the source material enough to make this movie musical into magic? Or is it just a moo cow patty? I'm Mark Peikert. I'm a pretty girl, Mama, and this is Movie Musical Madness, Little Lamb to the Slaughter.

[0:48] Mark Peikert: Joining me today is Dainty Baby Julie Halston.

[0:54] Julie Halston: Oh my, that's quite an intro.

[0:57] Mark Peikert: Well, thank you.

[1:02] Julie Halston: I appreciate that. That's the last time I will sound witty or well-written.

[1:07] Mark Peikert: No, no, that's fun. That's fun. Um, yeah, you know, um, just reminding me uh when that movie musical uh, you know, happened, I believe, I mean, and someone like Charles Bush can tell you the entire story, but basically Rosalind Russell's husband kind of bought his way into her doing that movie.

[1:28] Julie Halston: Yeah, kind of bought his way into her doing that movie. Um the two my two favorite parts of Life is a Banquet, Rosalind Russell's memoir, is when she vehemently denied that Freddie Brisson bought the rights so that she could star in it.

[1:45] Mark Peikert: Yeah.

[1:45] Julie Halston: Of course not. Of course not. I don't know, no, we never did that. And when she said that it was her singing voice throughout the movie.

[1:51] Mark Peikert: Yeah, I mean, it's kind of like, and the what is a riot too, because uh Rosalind Russell was also a famous Catholic.

[1:59] Julie Halston: Yes. She was a famous Catholic. And I grew up uh, I'm a lapsed Catholic now, desperate to be a Jew, but um I grew up in a very strict Roman Catholic uh home, and you know, lying is a sin. Roz. It's a sin.

[2:16] Mark Peikert: But look at Loretta Young, the other famous Catholic. She had a whole child out of wedlock and told everyone she adopted her.

[2:21] Julie Halston: Exactly, with Clark Gable.

[2:23] Mark Peikert: And then she had her ear spun real quick.

[2:25] Julie Halston: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dead giveaway.

[2:27] Mark Peikert: Yeah, dead giveaway. Um, so you know, but that's but the thing is, isn't that what you love about show business? Isn't that what you love about Hollywood in those days? The lies and the cover-ups, and like, no, he's not gay. Rock Hudson isn't gay.

[2:40] Julie Halston: And I have an interesting Rock Hudson story, by the way.

[2:46] Mark Peikert: Um, my dad uh was a tobacco salesman and a candy salesman, and um he used to service all the cigarette machines in bars and restaurants all over New York City.

[3:00] Julie Halston: And um, because remember, in those days, you could have a restaurant and there would always be a cigarette machine.

[3:06] Mark Peikert: Oh, yeah. You know, when people would put in their money and then pull the lever and they'd have their pack of Salems or larks or whatever.

[3:13] Julie Halston: My Chesterfields.

[3:14] Mark Peikert: But Chesterfields, you know. Anyway, that's what my dad did. And I remember at one point, I guess it was maybe the late 60s, maybe the 70s, he came home one day and told my mom, you'll never believe who I saw in uh one of those bars.

[3:17] Julie Halston: One of those bars, meaning a gay bar.

[3:40] Mark Peikert: It was the Continental Baths.

[3:42] Julie Halston: What?

[3:43] Mark Peikert: It was the Continental Baths. And uh my mother was like, oh, Rudy, what are you talking about? And he said, Rock Hudson.

[3:51] Julie Halston: Rock Hudson's one of those guys.

[3:54] Mark Peikert: One of those guys. And she was like, You're crazy, Rudy. You know, and you don't know what you're talking about. Well, cut to ten years later or whatever, when, you know, he he was gay.

[4:09] Julie Halston: What? What? What? This is news to News to the world. But anyway, there you have it. I mean, again, the you know, the lies, the cover-ups, this and that. It's and and and that's a sad story, actually.

[4:22] Mark Peikert: I mean, that's a terribly sad story.

[4:24] Julie Halston: Yeah. I mean, Rosalind Russell claiming that Lisa Kirk was actually her. Or my favorite uh companion piece to that, allegedly when Ethel Merman died, they found uh uh Rosalind Russell's original tracks in her closet.

[4:36] Mark Peikert: Oh dear Ethel Merman, which has to listen to.

[4:39] Julie Halston: Oh, I oh dear, that's hilarious. That's hilarious. But yeah, I mean, it was all known that, you know, her husband bought it for her.

[4:47] Mark Peikert: Yeah, you know, and he did the same with the uh Broadway play Majority of One, I believe. Or five-finger exercise, one of those two.

[4:54] Julie Halston: Oh, there you go. And she said, no, no, no, of course not. I'm Rosalind Russell.

[4:57] Mark Peikert: Exactly. I stand on my own.

[4:59] Julie Halston: Well, I mean, look, Rosalind Russell is fantastic. We all know she was fantastic, but um musical, not so much.

[5:08] Mark Peikert: No, not certainly not with this court, Wonderful Town, sure.

[5:11] Julie Halston: Yeah, yeah. You know who else did Wonderful Town? Lauren Bacall.

[5:14] Mark Peikert: There you go.

[5:15] Julie Halston: And applause. Foghorn Leghorn.

[5:18] Mark Peikert: Well, well, that's my whole career. I mean, Charles and I still laugh, Charles Bush, I'm referring to George Charles Bush. Um, the fact that, as he said to me, I think you've done more musicals than Gwen Verdon.

[5:31] Julie Halston: I mean, how could that be, Halston?

[5:33] Mark Peikert: And I was like, Well, they keep hiring me. I don't know what to say, Charles. You know, I I know it's ridiculous. But you know, they always need a funny lady in these musicals.

[5:43] Julie Halston: They do.

[5:44] Mark Peikert: You're the Thelma Ritter.

[5:45] Julie Halston: They exactly. And you know, and you know, if you can just get her to say a few lines in a sort of musical way, she'll pull it off. And that's what I do.

[5:53] Julie Halston: But then I do remember when Dennis Jones, our choreographer for Tootsie, uh came in. This was a couple of weeks into rehearsal. He came in very excited, you know, and he said to the entire company, guys, I've come up with this new finale, and you're all gonna be in it, and we all have to learn the dance.

[6:16] Mark Peikert: And I literally said to Dennis, Well, you just lost a Tony.

[6:21] Julie Halston: And unfortunately, he did lose a Tony, but not because of that. But it was a great way to end the musical that we were all dancing to it, and we were doing the sort of Red Rogers, you know, um uh uh number.

[6:36] Mark Peikert: But uh I was like, Mike McGraw and I were just like, do you know that we're a certain age? And do you know that we're not dancers? Meanwhile, Mike McGraw can dance. I mean, he's a tapper, he can do anything.

[6:49] Julie Halston: I am two left feet, but you know what? It didn't matter. I learned the dance, and I do remember I had to learn dancing for Hairspray, and I had to learn poor, poor Rusty Maori, the dance captain.

[7:03] Mark Peikert: Oh my god, it's a miracle he's not on drugs.

[7:06] Julie Halston: Um, and and and he had to teach me how to tap in Anything Goes. I had to do the final tap.

[7:11] Mark Peikert: And now you tap every morning.

[7:14] Julie Halston: Oh, yeah, every morning, yeah, yeah, yeah. So exercise or telephone. It was terrifying. It was terrifying. And I, you know, it took me, it took me like weeks for me going home every night, going, move to the left, move to the right, lift your leg.

[7:29] Mark Peikert: Meanwhile, you know, any Broadway ensemble member just goes, yeah, bubba, yeah, learns it in 10 minutes.

[7:36] Julie Halston: But they can't land a joke like you.

[7:37] Mark Peikert: Well, thank you. That's very kind. It's it's well, that that's luckily that's my gift. And having seen you in musicals, I will say you're a better dancer than Rosalind Russell in Gypsy.

[7:47] Julie Halston: Oh, well, there you go.

[7:49] Mark Peikert: She could barely walk during Rose's story.

[7:51] Julie Halston: It's kind of true. And and, you know, it is funny because Gypsy was one of those movies I saw as a uh as a child, and I was obsessed for a long time with two um movies. One was The Song of Bernadette.

[8:11] Mark Peikert: Of course, Miss Jennifer Jones.

[8:12] Julie Halston: Jennifer Jones. In her Oscar winning role. Her husband got her.

[8:16] Mark Peikert: Thank you. Thank you very much.

[8:17] Julie Halston: The Song of Bernadette, I was obsessed with it. And I was also obsessed with Gypsy. And for a long time, and my- This is where the last Catholic comes in.

[8:27] Mark Peikert: Exactly.

[8:28] Julie Halston: Because I was obsessed with Song of Bernadette, and I thought, I'm gonna be a saint. I'm gonna learn how to be a saint. And I'm not I'm not joking. I tried to get my sister to enlist my sister into like putting on like little scarves so that we can look like little novitiates.

[8:48] Mark Peikert: And I was like trying to hurt my knee so that I could develop a tumor on my leg. I'm not joking. You can ask my younger sister. This really happened. I tried so hard to be a saint.

[9:04] Julie Halston: And then it was around that same time that I was watching Million Dollar Movie, because that was one of those million dollar movies, you could watch the movie all day, that we watched Gypsy with Roz Russell and Natalie Wood, Carl Malden.

[9:22] Mark Peikert: And I was obsessed.

[9:25] Julie Halston: And I was like, okay, wait, Saint or Stripper? Saint or Stripper? And I decided, I'll be an actress. That's kind of like in the middle.

[9:37] Mark Peikert: It's kind of in the middle.

[9:39] Julie Halston: It's kind of a stripper, but it's also like you don't really have to be nude.

[9:45] Mark Peikert: You heal people.

[9:45] Julie Halston: Yes, you heal people. It's noble profession.

[9:48] Mark Peikert: It's a noble profession, sorta, kinda. Um, but anyway, uh, and I saw that movie.

[9:55] Julie Halston: I think I saw the movie of Gypsy. I'm sure I saw it 12, 13 times, maybe more.

[10:01] Mark Peikert: Did you see the movie before you ever knew the score, the Ethel Merman cast album?

[10:06] Julie Halston: Uh no.

[10:08] Mark Peikert: We had 45s. And because my dad, as I was saying, was a tobacco salesman, but he also um, and I think a lot of these things fell off a truck in an homage to Martin Scorsese.

[10:25] Julie Halston: Uh, we used to get things in the house that were like, Dad, where'd you get that? Like, we had a Wurlitzer in our garage.

[10:34] Mark Peikert: And he was like, oh, yeah, well, uh, you know, a friend of mine gave it to me, a friend of mine. What the hell, dad, were we doing with a pool table and a Wurlitzer, and uh, you know, and he used to get stacks of 45s for free for what were you doing?

[10:52] Julie Halston: I don't know.

[10:53] Mark Peikert: Okay. Anyway, we had the 45 of Ethel Merman's version of Everything's Coming Up Roses.

[11:00] Julie Halston: So there was, there is somewhere there's a 45 of that. It's crazy. I don't know how we got it or why we got it, but we had that.

[11:09] Mark Peikert: So we listened to that. So I did know that. I didn't know what Gypsy was. I just knew it was a musical.

[11:16] Julie Halston: And then my mother was a big theater queen. She was she loved the theater. And she kind of told me about Ethel Merman.

[11:25] Mark Peikert: And she told me the story of Gypsy and whatnot.

[11:28] Julie Halston: So I was pretty riveted. So, and we had a lot of show albums in the house. We had My Fair Lady, we had Hello Dolly, we had West Side Story, we were obsessed with West Side Story.

[11:38] Mark Peikert: Um, but the when the movie, when we could watch the movie, you know, we were we were like, oh my, this is what mom was talking about, you know what I mean? This thing.

[11:48] Julie Halston: So it was, but uh we I was a little concerned when I saw the movie. It was like, she can't sing like that other lady.

[11:58] Mark Peikert: That other lady sang the song.

[12:00] Julie Halston: I think a lot of people were concerned when they saw the movie.

[12:04] Mark Peikert: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And also Natalie Wood was gorgeous and beautiful, and you know, she's an actress, she was a great actress, but also again, this wasn't these were not musical voices, you know, they were just they were stars.

[12:20] Julie Halston: I think the only time that Rosalind Russell really works as Rose for me is in the dressing room scene at the end with Gypsy.

[12:28] Mark Peikert: Yes.

[12:28] Julie Halston: Because she stops doing this kind of manic anti-Mame energy. And she's actually acting, and she's you remember that she did Morning Becomes Electra.

[12:37] Mark Peikert: Yes.

[12:38] Julie Halston: She did Sister Kenny.

[12:39] Mark Peikert: Yeah, yeah.

[12:39] Julie Halston: Speaking of secular sayings.

[12:41] Mark Peikert: Yeah, yeah. Am I right?

[12:43] Julie Halston: You are quite the, I mean, the scholar.

[12:46] Mark Peikert: Um, you're absolutely right. And and also it's very touching because you really see that she was a woman struggling and sad and regretful.

[12:56] Julie Halston: You know what I mean?

[12:57] Mark Peikert: Yeah.

[12:57] Julie Halston: And and angry. And unable to express sadness or regret.

[13:02] Mark Peikert: Right.

[13:03] Julie Halston: And it was, and I I misspoke because that scene with Natalie Wood, yes, and also watching her make the decision after Carl Malden leaves.

[13:11] Mark Peikert: Yes.

[13:11] Julie Halston: In the backstage at the at the burlesque theater.

[13:14] Mark Peikert: Yes.

[13:15] Julie Halston: It's great.

[13:16] Mark Peikert: It is.

[13:16] Julie Halston: Those two scenes.

[13:17] Mark Peikert: Yes.

[13:17] Julie Halston: Almost save the entire movie.

[13:19] Mark Peikert: Almost.

[13:19] Julie Halston: Almost.

[13:20] Mark Peikert: Yeah, I know. It's really true. Because there's also the narration.

[13:24] Julie Halston: Oh, yeah.

[13:25] Mark Peikert: You know, I forgot about that.

[13:26] Julie Halston: She's constantly like.

[13:28] Mark Peikert: And then we were also.

[13:31] Julie Halston: And I told, yeah, I know, I know. It's very strange.

[13:33] Mark Peikert: It it is. And also you'd think that they would have figured out that you don't need that.

[13:39] Julie Halston: Hello. It's a film.

[13:41] Mark Peikert: Yes. You don't need to be narrating.

[13:43] Julie Halston: Drive them through past a sign that says, Welcome to Seattle.

[13:46] Mark Peikert: This is what everyone else does.

[13:47] Julie Halston: And I also wondered if that was something that she and her husband came up with.

[13:53] Mark Peikert: I wonder about that.

[13:54] Julie Halston: That she felt like that she had to narrate the story. It throws everything off balance because then it's her recounting the story, but then that's not the end of the movie. And how do you how do you marry those two things?

[14:09] Julie Halston: And the answer is you don't. Well, I also think she was afraid of not being liked. Yes. That's where. And you know what? That's where you go, okay, Raz. Uh this is where I kind of lose a little respect. Like as an actress, you were more concerned with that. I mean, you played Sylvia in The Women. Oh, but she was very unhappy doing it. Well, there you go. It's like you have to be liked, and I think that's what it really had to be. It's like you know what I mean? And that shouldn't have been a concern. I mean, and yet in those days, maybe in Hollywood, that kind of thing. I mean, listen, it's still going on. I think uh we do hear about these stories about, I don't know, um, I guess having concerns about a script because of her standing in the community. I it's really, is that what artists are all about? But, you know, whatever. There is always a problem, I guess, um when you have a persona that people adore, and the artistry of playing a character.

[15:26] Mark Peikert: Yeah.

[15:27] Julie Halston: Uh, and I do think here's where I get into a little bit of the me too thing. Uh-oh. Yeah, yeah. Which is that I do think for some reason it might be harder for women. You know, Javier Bardem can play uh a psychopath. Nobody, nobody goes like, oh, you know, I I I thought he was a nice guy. Like, nobody's caring about that. But for some reason in Hollywood with women, it's like to play, you know, the evil thing. You can be maleficent because it's basically a fantasy. Yes. But if you really played a psycho serial killer, you know. We're still making jokes about Glenn Close and Boiling Bunnys. We're still doing that. I mean, that's why I did sort of uh I have to say, Charlize Theron in Monster didn't apologize. No. And I really think that's great, you know. Well, why are you apologizing? It's a role, kids, you know. Um yeah. Well, now we haven't even talked about the fact that you starred in a production of Gypsy.

[16:35] Julie Halston: Yeah. On Broadway. Yes, it's true. And I need to know your elaborate backstory for Miss Cratchit.

[16:41] Mark Peikert: Oh, yes. Because I assume that you are someone who does a lot of backstory work. You just don't like to talk about it at the table.

[16:48] Julie Halston: It's true. Well, here's the thing. Gypsy was uh with Bernadette Peters, uh directed by Sam Mendez. 2003?

[16:55] Mark Peikert: 2003.

[16:57] Julie Halston: Uh so here's the deal. And I don't know. The first production not directed by Arthur Lawrence.

[17:03] Mark Peikert: Yes, and Arthur Lawrence was not happy about that.

[17:06] Julie Halston: Oh, he wasn't. No, he was not. He lived an extra decade just to do it again as a director of it.

[17:11] Mark Peikert: I did. You're apt you're right about that, Mark. And listen, I have a great deal of respect for Arthur Lawrence. He he was really brilliant. He was brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. He wrote the best book of a musical ever. He was also famously cranky and and famously tough and and not always so nice, you know. Uh anyway, he loved Bernadette. He loves Bernadette. I think it was really difficult for him not to be directing. Sam Mendez, hello, who's this Brit coming in, you know. He and Sam had a lot of issues, you know. Uh Sam had his vision, and as we know, Sam Mendez has done many, many things, film and theater. He's a brilliant, brilliant director. He had his vision of what he wanted. Uh Arth had a lot of questions about it, a lot of issues.

[18:06] Julie Halston: Okay, here's the deal. First of all, I was obsessed with getting in to Gypsy. I it's my favorite musical in the whole world. I was, I don't know how old I was. I'm not gonna really say, but I was not a young woman. I was well, I was well past 35.

[18:28] Mark Peikert: Well seasoned.

[18:28] Julie Halston: Yeah, I was well seasoned. Jerry Mitchell was choreographing. I knew Jerry. Sam Mendez, I was so crazy about Sam Mendez. It's my favorite musical. Jim Carnahan, and I want to do a shout out to Jim Carnahan, because he has, I think cast me maybe eight or nine times. I mean, he is a big supporter of mine. And Jim Carnahan uh said, Oh, we gotta get Julie in for one of the strippers. Sam couldn't have been nicer. He was so lovely, and and it was a wonderful first read. Now I do have a great audition story though. I walk in, and everyone auditioned for the uh strippers, reading the Tessie Torah sides. I did not read the Miss Electra sides, I read the Tessie Torah, because Tessie Tora had more lines than the other two strippers.

A young actress, and she will remain nameless, uh saw me, and she was younger than me, and she was wearing a very sexy bodice and blah blah blah. And she said to me, are you here uh to audition for one of the strippers? And I said, Yes, I am, and she said, I guess you're seeing all ages.

[19:54] Mark Peikert: Wow.

[19:54] Julie Halston: And you've never spoken to Jackie Hoffman since.

[19:57] Mark Peikert: Uh no, it wasn't Jackie.

[20:00] Julie Halston: Um, but it was a girl with the name Jay. But anyway, I couldn't believe it. And of course, I got the part. Um, but I couldn't believe that she said that. It was so rude and so thoughtless, but I just laughed. And I just thought, wow. And it just totally motivated me to be like, well, I'm gonna get this part. Um let me be clear to everyone I have spoken about doing this episode with you about Gypsy. Every single person has gone, what a great production. I still cry with laughter when I think about her.

[20:35] Mark Peikert: Oh both of those scenes, as the stripper and as Miss Cratchett, with that phone. The amount of work you did with that phone on that stage.

[20:45] Julie Halston: Well, here's the other story about Miss Cratchit. So I was doing a workshop of On a Clear Day at that time. Arthur was famously negative about all the people that Sam liked. And Sam kept saying, What about this Julie Halston? I think she's kind of fabulous, and she's all arms and legs, and she's kind of fantastic. And Arthur was like, Yeah, I know who she is. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Anyway, I was the one who I had six auditions. And after the fourth audition, I was told by my agent, I don't think this is gonna work. They're going to LA to audition people. And I was like, really? Well, they'll never find anyone there. It's come to that.

[21:34] Julie Halston: It's come to that. And I was heartbroken. I mean, to say I was crushed. I couldn't believe it. Anyway, cut two months later, I kept pressing my agent. Well, who was in LA? Did they get? Who'd they get? Who'd they get? You know, what did they get? Moe Gaffney? I I I don't know. What who? Is Kathleen and Jimmy doing it? Jane Kasmeric? Jane K. Well, yeah, Jane Kismeric. Come on. Who? He said, Well, actually, it's interesting you call because they're coming back to New York and they're coming round again. On the fifth callback, um, Jim Carnahan said to Sam and Arthur, Julie is doing a workshop of on a clear day, and it looks like it's gonna go. And you're gonna lose her. If you don't make her an offer soon, you're gonna lose her. I did a work session with Sam. I went back in the room. Arthur somehow okayed it, and he okayed for me to do Miss Cratchett.

[22:40] Julie Halston: I was, when I found out that I got it, I was actually teaching, because I used I used to teach young cabaret performers, which is maybe the saddest moment of my life.

[22:54] Mark Peikert: Um Were there young cabaret performers?

[22:57] Julie Halston: Well, actually, they weren't young. That was the sad part. You talking about Marilyn May have to be.

[23:03] Mark Peikert: Ah, yes, exactly, exactly.

[23:06] Julie Halston: I was literally in a work session with a cabaret performer of a certain age. And I got this, you know how in the older days, uh, because you know, it wasn't like we all had iPhones in 2003. We had like flip phones, I think. Was it flip phones? Or I don't know if I it certainly weren't the phones that we had. A rotary phone?

[23:31] Mark Peikert: It wasn't a rotary.

[23:32] Julie Halston: Although I love a rotary phone.

[23:34] Mark Peikert: Oh, I love a rotary phone.

[23:35] Julie Halston: It really slows you down.

[23:36] Mark Peikert: It slows you down and makes you think before you make that call.

[23:40] Julie Halston: Um anyway, I got this message on my voicemail or whatever. Julie called me immediately, and it was my agent, and he told me, and I remember putting down the phone, and I started crying in the middle of my cabaret work session. And I somehow got through the session, and I was over at a friend's house because he was the musical director, and I I could not stop crying. And at one point, his wife, who is a wonderful, wonderful um uh woman named Celeste, uh, it was about 4:30 in the afternoon, and she was like, You need a vodka. And I did, I took a shot of vodka. She was like, I think I need to slap you and give you a shot of vodka. And I did, I had a shot of vodka. And which is usually how you started your sessions with the cabaret.

[24:30] Mark Peikert: Exactly.

[24:31] Julie Halston: And um, I went home, cried and cried. My husband, we were just so excited. And here's the other Miss Cratchit moment. So there we are, final rehearsals. And in those days, you used to do a dress rehearsal for the for the uh for the community. Used to be called the gypsy run, which is politically incorrect now. Now it's the red bucket run, I think.

[24:54] Mark Peikert: The red bucket run or the Romani rum.

[24:57] Julie Halston: I don't know. I mean, I all I know is it used to be called the Gypsy Run, and it was the dress rehearsal, and the entire Broadway community would come. I was so crazy nervous about doing Miss Electra. However, I was very excited about doing Miss Cratchit because Sam, the way he um staged it, Miss Cratchit, you'd hear ring, ring, ring, and I had to do a cross across the entire Broadway stage to pick up the phone to say grandzingers.

[25:31] Mark Peikert: Well, I am such a diva.

[25:34] Julie Halston: I said to Sam, Sam, you know that when that ring comes on and I do that cross, there will be entrance applause. And he was like, um, what, Julie? What are you saying? I said, Oh, there'll be entrance applause. This is the gypsy run. It's it's the dress rehearsal. The entire Broadway community is there. There will be entrance applause. He looked at Brooks Ashmancas and he was like, She's crazy. She's nuts.

[26:05] Mark Peikert: Well, darling.

[26:08] Julie Halston: Ring ring. I got applause from the entire stage right, all the way to stage left. Woo! Julie Halston! Grandzingers! And it got a huge laugh. Well, Sam came up to me afterwards. He was like, well, I I I feel terrible. I I guess I didn't really know who you were. I was like, I told you, Sam. I told you.

[26:42] Julie Halston: Um, anyway, it was so great. And then uh it was, but it was really Sam Mendez's idea, and this is why he is so smart. He said, let's go back to the lyric. I'm electrifying and I'm not even trying. I never have to sweat to get paid. We had come up with this idea that these women were really broken down women. You know, they were in their 40s, they'd been stripping a long time. Too long, man. Too long, they weren't the prettiest of gals. And he said, I'd like to set it up so that each we get to see each of these girls before the number even happens, so that at a certain point you did see me in the dressing room, and I had a big thing of red wine, so that Miss Electra basically was a drunk. You know, she she was drunk, and that's how she got through this sad life.

And so when I got out there to do I'm electrifying and I'm not even trying, he said, Julie, I know this is gonna be hard for you. I am begging you not to move a muscle until you just have to click the light on and your breasts slide off. And and he said, and if you can think about this, maybe even clicking that light on is a little difficult because you're kind of drunk.

[28:15] Julie Halston: I have to tell you, I resisted it. I was really nervous about it's very hard to go on a Broadway stage and do nothing.

[28:22] Mark Peikert: Yeah.

[28:24] Julie Halston: And to have a sort of silence, you know.

[28:27] Mark Peikert: And as a stripper.

[28:28] Julie Halston: As a stripper, he was so right. People went cuckoo crazy.

[28:35] Mark Peikert: Yeah.

[28:36] Julie Halston: And the next production, which was Patti LuPone's Gypsy, apparently, that is now how Miss Electra is played. Even Arthur, who, you know, was again famously cranky and didn't love our production, he did love that.

[28:54] Mark Peikert: It's perfect.

[28:55] Julie Halston: Yeah, it was perfect. Because it's a joke that it's also a truth about the character and about her place at that point in her life. And it really did follow the lyric.

[29:02] Mark Peikert: Well, and that's also what's so weird about this version of Gypsy is it feels like they're performing it for an audience that's not reacting.

[29:11] Julie Halston: Yes. It feels very performative and very everything feels caked on.

[29:15] Mark Peikert: Yes.

[29:16] Julie Halston: Like the movements and the choreography and the blocking just feel very pushing.

[29:25] Mark Peikert: Oh, yeah.

[29:26] Julie Halston: Yeah, yeah.

[29:27] Mark Peikert: And I think the Bette Midler version works more.

[29:30] Julie Halston: Yes. Because they had people who really understood musicals working on it.

[29:33] Mark Peikert: Yes.

[29:33] Julie Halston: And also because she definitely was more right. I think even physically, the more we knew about, you know, the real mama, in a sense, you know, she was that little woman, you know, and that was Bet.

[29:49] Mark Peikert: Yeah, you know.

[29:50] Julie Halston: And Rosalind Russell's just all shoulders.

[29:52] Mark Peikert: And yeah.

[29:53] Julie Halston: And we haven't even talked about the costumes for this because so over the top, crazy nuts. What is on Natalie Wood's head at the end when she's going to that party and she's got it looks like a turban made out of human hair.

[30:07] Mark Peikert: It does.

[30:07] Julie Halston: It does. It's crazy. And it's like the Marie Antoinette wig with Norma Shearer with their birds in it.

[30:13] Mark Peikert: It's really true.

[30:14] Julie Halston: And Raz's clothes are so ugly. And I can't believe that she would allow that. It's like, first of all, the coat doesn't fit.

[30:20] Mark Peikert: The coat doesn't fit.

[30:23] Julie Halston: Black satin is not flattering on her, not even with that cut.

[30:27] Mark Peikert: I and I exactly. And you just think, wait, and what about her tri-corn? What is she in a reenactor? Is she doing an American Revolutionary War reenactment?

[30:38] Mark Peikert: Yes, that was their new act.

[30:40] Julie Halston: That was the new act. Yes, exactly. Louise and the Paul Revere.

[30:46] Mark Peikert: It's really true. I mean, really crazy.

[30:49] Julie Halston: It was really, really crazy. And just ugly. Ugly, ugly, ugly.

[30:54] Mark Peikert: And there's a difference between ugly because they're poor and they're at the run-down end of the vaudeville circuit.

[30:59] Julie Halston: Right. And there's a difference between just, oh, this, I don't, this doesn't, this isn't a movie I want to watch aesthetically.

[31:06] Mark Peikert: No, no. Let me ask you this. Um, and I have read her book, but I don't remember what was June Havoc's reaction to the movie.

[31:14] Julie Halston: I don't remember her reaction to the movie. Her reaction to Gypsy's memoir was to write her own.

[31:19] Mark Peikert: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[31:21] Julie Halston: And she was very upset, by the way, with our production of Gypsy, because there's a moment in our production of Gypsy where Dainty June, before she runs off with Tulsa, because she's now in her teenage years, pulls out a cigarette and starts smoking on stage.

[31:39] Mark Peikert: And June Havoc was furious because she, I guess, with her own health issues, or she felt that it was promulgating smoking, and oh, she was furious, furious.

[31:54] Julie Halston: It was like, wait a minute. Wasn't everyone smoking then?

[31:57] Mark Peikert: Yes.

[31:58] Julie Halston: And they were smoking at 13.

[32:00] Mark Peikert: Yes.

[32:01] Julie Halston: I thought it was very realistic. I remember lighting up my first Vantage.

[32:04] Mark Peikert: There you go.

[32:06] Julie Halston: Yeah, backstage.

[32:09] Mark Peikert: Yeah, oh my god. Laurette Taylor asked her to bum one.

[32:12] Julie Halston: Oh, okay, that's fantastic. There you go. Um, as if people do know who that is, but you might have to explain that one.

[32:19] Mark Peikert: No, I won't. They can Google it.

[32:20] Julie Halston: Google, Google. Well, I interviewed Eric Primminger, Gypsy's son last year.

[32:24] Mark Peikert: And he said, look, I wasn't a fan of June.

[32:28] Julie Halston: But I have to give her this. She supported her entire family, traveled the country. She was a huge vaudeville star.

[32:35] Mark Peikert: And I think that that's something that gets lost in every production of Gypsy.

[32:38] Julie Halston: They were successful.

[32:39] Mark Peikert: Yes.

[32:40] Julie Halston: They had a huge run of it.

[32:41] Mark Peikert: Yes.

[32:42] Julie Halston: And then Vaudeville died. That's what happened.

[32:43] Mark Peikert: Right.

[32:44] Julie Halston: It wasn't their fault.

[32:45] Mark Peikert: Yeah.

[32:46] Julie Halston: The whole form died.

[32:48] Mark Peikert: And, you know, it's really true.

[32:53] Julie Halston: I mean, and in fact, I think they had some really good ideas.

[32:58] Mark Peikert: You know what I mean?

[32:59] Julie Halston: For acts.

[33:00] Mark Peikert: Yes.

[33:01] Julie Halston: And um, it's a really interesting time because the 30s was an interesting time historically, not only in terms of entertainment, but you know, the depression, the dust bowl, you know, had gotten out of World War One, but now inching toward World War II.

[33:24] Mark Peikert: Yeah.

[33:24] Julie Halston: It's it was historically a really interesting time, but also a very sad time.

[33:30] Mark Peikert: Yeah.

[33:31] Julie Halston: And um, yeah, it's interesting. And you know, I mean, look, show business is show business, and it's an addiction.

[33:41] Mark Peikert: And I think that we actually saw that in the Gypsy, in all the gypsies, you get a sense.

[33:46] Julie Halston: Yes. Even listen, I'll go to a high school production of Gypsy, I'll go to a grammar school production of Gypsy. I love it so much.

[33:54] Mark Peikert: Um, but uh it also shows that once you're in that groove, it's like she couldn't get out of it. They none of them could get out of it.

[34:05] Julie Halston: And that's one of the most affecting things about this movie. Maybe one of the only affecting things for me, is the moment where you see Rosalind Russell and Natalie Wood both make the decision independently that she is going to go out and do a strip act.

[34:19] Mark Peikert: Right, right.

[34:20] Julie Halston: And you see them examine it and see how dirty and ugly that is and what that could lead to, and you see both of them go with it.

[34:28] Mark Peikert: Right.

[34:29] Julie Halston: And make that decision. But also when she says, and of course it's a cliché now, I'm a pretty girl, mama. I mean, yes, it's kind of funny now because we've heard it so often.

[34:41] Mark Peikert: But let's face it, if you were a child who never felt attractive, loved enough for who you were, that's a powerful moment.

[34:53] Julie Halston: And when you realize, one, we're in a desperate situation, two, I am pretty.

[35:02] Mark Peikert: Yeah.

[35:02] Julie Halston: I'm and I am not adult. And I can do something.

[35:07] Mark Peikert: Yes.

[35:08] Julie Halston: You know, I can do something. I don't know what it's gonna be, in a sense, but I'm gonna do something.

[35:14] Mark Peikert: Um, and you know, let's face it, the real Gypsy Rose Lee, and I did watch her television show when I was a child.

[35:20] Julie Halston: Gypsy her talk show from San Francisco.

[35:23] Mark Peikert: Exactly.

[35:23] Julie Halston: And of course, you know, there's a part of me that thinks, what was my mother thinking? It's like, I don't know. I was a child.

[35:30] Mark Peikert: I mean, I might have been like five years old or six years old.

[35:34] Julie Halston: And she would like put the TV on and she'd be like, watch Gypsy Rose Lee. I always liked her.

[35:39] Mark Peikert: She would say things like that to me and my sister Mary.

[35:42] Julie Halston: And it's like, what? We're watching a famous stripper with a talk show.

[35:46] Mark Peikert: We loved it.

[35:47] Julie Halston: And she was fascinating, and she was alluring.

[35:51] Mark Peikert: Yeah.

[35:52] Julie Halston: And she always wore something interesting, and she would, you know, talk about her days on the road or whatever.

[35:59] Mark Peikert: And but she was also bright and interested in and engaged in the world.

[36:05] Julie Halston: And um, hey, you know, she wrote three books.

[36:05] Mark Peikert: She wrote three books.

[36:10] Julie Halston: She wrote a play.

[36:11] Mark Peikert: She wrote a play.

[36:13] Julie Halston: Um, you know, she was a very engaging human being.

[36:18] Mark Peikert: And let's face it, she was an artful stripper.

[36:21] Julie Halston: Yeah. And I think that was the other thing that, you know, a lot of this does go back to my mom.

[36:28] Mark Peikert: Um, my mom loved the theater.

[36:31] Julie Halston: She loved theater folk, you know. And uh the fact that she would was able to tell us like who this woman was, and then we could all put it together.

[36:43] Mark Peikert: Yeah.

[36:43] Julie Halston: It's like, oh, that's the real Natalie Wood, and that's the real, do you know, and like that's the 45 of everything's coming up roses. So we could put it together.

[36:55] Mark Peikert: And um, it was really interesting.

[36:58] Julie Halston: I mean, my mom was 92 when she saw Hamilton. I mean, come on.

[37:03] Mark Peikert: Uh so, you know, that's a woman who loves the theater.

[37:07] Julie Halston: Yeah. So, and Gypsy, you know, I know a lot of people said that Bernadette never really found the monster, you know, and and in her that, and one of the things I adored about our version was that John Dossett and Bernadette were a sexy couple.

[37:31] Mark Peikert: Yeah.

[37:32] Julie Halston: And you could be like, hmm, there is a reason he's sticking around.

[37:36] Mark Peikert: Yeah.

[37:37] Julie Halston: Who leaves Bernadette Peters?

[37:40] Mark Peikert: Nobody.

[37:41] Julie Halston: And it would have to take something so terrible for this man to leave this woman.

[37:48] Mark Peikert: Well, I think that also works with Carl Malden because he'll stick around for anybody.

[37:52] Julie Halston: Well, da da.

[37:54] Mark Peikert: Kind of true.

[37:55] Julie Halston: Except, you know, when Blanche is too slutty for it.

[37:58] Mark Peikert: Yeah, too slutty for that.

[37:59] Julie Halston: But Blanche goes too far over the line.

[38:01] Mark Peikert: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[38:02] Julie Halston: And it's like, honey, she's the best you're gonna get. What are you talking about?

[38:06] Mark Peikert: I have to share my other favorite thing from my interview with Eric Breminger, which is at the very beginning of the interview, he said, you know, I'm still talking about Gypsy, my mother and Gypsy the Show, and my mother was a narcissist who wanted to be immortal, and she achieved it.

[38:20] Julie Halston: And for a stripper, that's something.

[38:23] Mark Peikert: Wow.

[38:24] Julie Halston: I like that.

[38:25] Mark Peikert: Isn't that an amazing summation?

[38:27] Julie Halston: It's not only it's not only a great summation, it's authentic, it's real, it's and it's sort of without judgment.

[38:36] Mark Peikert: It's so clear-eyed.

[38:37] Julie Halston: It's so clear-eyed, and it's not um, it's not pitying for her or him.

[38:47] Mark Peikert: And I think that, but you know what? I also think that's a lot of actresses.

[38:50] Julie Halston: Oh, yes.

[38:50] Mark Peikert: That's a lot of actresses.

[38:55] Julie Halston: Oh, do you think?

[38:56] Mark Peikert: Do you think?

[38:57] Julie Halston: Do you think?

[38:57] Mark Peikert: Oh, tell me more.

[38:58] Julie Halston: Yeah, tell me more.

[38:59] Mark Peikert: Um, I I mean, I'm always amazed when you see actors and actresses.

[39:05] Julie Halston: Um, I'm gonna drop names now, but like Jesse Tyler Ferguson and I always love it when we see a um an actor or an actress uh interviewed and they ask they're asked a question, they go, well, for me, and it's like that's how they start their summation of something.

[39:21] Mark Peikert: It's like, well, for me, um, the crisis in Syria is really serious, and it's like, for me, it's like, wow, everything is about you, including Aleppo.

[39:21] Julie Halston: Including Aleppo.

[39:39] Mark Peikert: Wow. Okay.

[39:40] Julie Halston: I think we all took Aleppo personally, though.

[39:42] Mark Peikert: I mean, you gotta be kidding me.

[39:45] Julie Halston: For me, oh, that's when you know, oh, we're in that world.

[39:49] Mark Peikert: My favorite is just as someone who interviews people for a living, is oh wow, that's a that's a really good question.

[39:56] Julie Halston: Oh I was like, oh, there's your media training. Because one, you're buying time, and two, you're trying to disarm me by complimenting.

[40:02] Mark Peikert: Exactly.

[40:03] Julie Halston: I know it's a good question. I don't need the compliment.

[40:04] Mark Peikert: I reject the compliment.

[40:06] Julie Halston: Give me your answer, please.

[40:07] Mark Peikert: Exactly. You're absolutely right.

[40:08] Julie Halston: Um, all right, well, we have to wrap up because we're running out of time.

[40:11] Mark Peikert: Oh dear.

[40:11] Julie Halston: So here is my question for you.

[40:13] Mark Peikert: Okay.

[40:13] Julie Halston: Do you think that this movie with Rosalind Russell?

[40:17] Mark Peikert: Yes, do you think it stands on its own for people who do not know the musical?

[40:23] Julie Halston: Hmm.

[40:25] Mark Peikert: Or does it only really work?

[40:27] Julie Halston: No. I would say no.

[40:28] Mark Peikert: I don't think so either.

[40:29] Julie Halston: Yeah, I say no. I think this is so poorly executed at the end of the day that it diminishes the magic of the original.

[40:40] Mark Peikert: And if you see this, you have no reason to go back and investigate your.

[41:18] Julie Halston: And you know, all you can I literally am thinking right now of that tricorn hat and that oversized crazy ugly coat.

[41:26] Mark Peikert: And you think, why would I go back?

[41:29] Julie Halston: And, you know, thank God it is being done correctly.

[41:34] Mark Peikert: Yes.

[41:35] Julie Halston: And yeah, but let's be let's be clear here.

[41:40] Mark Peikert: Wrong.

[41:41] Julie Halston: Wrong. You heard it here, Gypsy.

[41:43] Mark Peikert: Movie musical madness, not magic.

[41:46] Julie Halston: Not magic. But this was.

[41:48] Mark Peikert: This was. Thank you so much.

[41:50] Julie Halston: And thank you for listening. Tune in for the next episode of Movie Musical Madness.

[41:57] Mark Peikert: This episode of Movie Musical Madness was edited by Kyle Moore with theme music by Sunshine Music.

[42:04] Julie Halston: And thank you for listening to Movie Musical Madness, part of the Broadway Podcast Network. You can find out more about the podcast, and me, at BPN.fm slash movie musical madness.