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[0:00] Mark Peikert: Chicago is to blame. When the movie, which at one point was supposed to star Liza Minnelli and Goldie Hawn, finally reached screens in 2002, the results were so thrilling, so accomplished, and so entertaining that it led to years of questionable movie musicals trying to replicate its Oscar-winning formula. But that was then, and hindsight is 20/20. How does Chicago hold up? Is it still hotcha? Or do today's audiences want to skidoo? I'm Mark Peikert. I bet you want to know why I shot the bastard, and you're listening to Movie Musical Madness.

[0:49] Mark Peikert: Joining me today is Mary Neely, just out of the Convent of the Sacred Heart. Mary, I'm so excited that you wanted to do Chicago because this is one of maybe two movie musicals where I'm like, I'm intimidated to talk about this because I really love this movie.

[1:09] Mary Neely: No, I think it's like one of the best movie musicals ever, maybe.

[1:15] Mark Peikert: Yes, it's no, it's this and Cabaret for me.

[1:19] Mary Neely: Yes.

[1:19] Mark Peikert: No, I know. Singing in the Rain, Chicago.

[1:22] Mary Neely: Well, I don't know. I think that's it. So I mean, this has been a very brief episode. So my first question for you is: how familiar were you with the show before the movie premiered?

[1:37] Mary Neely: Well, to be honest with you, I think I was in like the fifth grade or sixth grade when the movie came out. So I and I was a huge theater kid, like when I was in elementary school, but I wasn't super familiar with this one in particular.

[1:59] Mark Peikert: It would be weird if you were a child who was a Fosse fan.

[2:04] Mary Neely: If I was like in fourth grade, like Fosse is my life. Um no, I know. So I remember when the movie came out, and like it did have some mature themes, but I did see it, and I was blown away. And then when I was a little bit older, I actually did I actually have my playbill. I have my playbill from when I saw it. It was the touring production in Los Angeles; it came to the Pantages Theater in Hollywood. I love the prop work. I know people can't see I'm holding the playbill.

[2:43] Mark Peikert: So you were not familiar with the show before the movie came out. Were you as obsessed with the movie when you saw it as I was as a 52-year-old man?

[2:55] Mary Neely: I was really, really into it, and I remember like I did a lot of like musical reviews, you know, like community theater, like where it's like they slap together a bunch of songs and like this very loose narrative that like kind of makes sense or something, like everybody wanted to do "All That Jazz." So I remember when I was like in seventh or eighth grade in a leotard in like a weird little wig being like, and all, like, do you know what I mean? Like that was like the song. In my community theater in small-town Texas, we did "And the World Goes Round," the Kander and Ebb review. But the director thought that he knew best, and so, in addition to most of the songs, and "And the World Goes Round," he started interpolating other things. So we did all these Kander and Ebb songs. I danced in "All That Jazz." I think I did a leap and landed on one knee, which is insane to think about because I have no coordination or rhythm.

[3:56] Mary Neely: We ended singing "Being Alive." That's so confusing. So and I kind of knew I knew Chicago before because I got very, very into theater and musicals, and I was a huge Gwen Verdon fan. And so one Christmas, my mother got me the original cast album for Chicago, and I listened to it constantly. And then I remember vividly where I was. I was in my dorm at Sarah Lawrence College when the casting for the motion picture came out. Richard Gere, I said, Catherine Zeta-Jones. Bridget Jones is gonna be—oh no, no, no, no, no, no. Well, believe you me, I ate crow when I saw that movie because I flipped when I saw when this movie came out. I had a Chicago poster on my wall in that dorm room, or a different dorm room. It was the next year that I strangely, and I was thinking about this when I was getting ready for this episode. I had a Chicago poster that I won at a screening of "Steel Magnolias" hosted by Drag Queen Head a Lettuce in a competition to recite dialogue from the movie.

[5:13] Mark Peikert: And you won.

[5:14] Mary Neely: I came in second. Somebody else did. Don't talk about me like I'm not here.

[5:19] Mark Peikert: And they won.

[5:21] Mary Neely: I played two characters and did the Cup-a-Cup-a-Capella recipe, and I came in second.

[5:26] Mark Peikert: Oh, you were robbed.

[5:28] Mary Neely: Thank you. I didn't want to say it, but other people have over the years, so I appreciate that. I appreciate that acknowledgment.

[5:37] Mark Peikert: Yeah. No, I love a good behind-the-scenes video. And I actually, it's funny because like I wrote a musical movie. And so I was trying to do a lot of— I mean, I'm still trying. Oh, it's learning. Come on. I was like trying to figure out the transitions that go between. I mean, obviously, we have to think about this on stage, the transition between a speaking moment and when the song starts, but in film, I feel like it's even more drastic, and you really have to think about the logistics. And I feel like this film does the best way of like transitioning between speaking moments and like in kind of reality into this like escapist song moment or whatever.

[5:50] Mary Neely: And so I was watching the behind-the-scenes, and just like I had this newfound respect for Renée Zellweger and Catherine Zeta-Jones because they like really went for it, and it was just like them in rehearsal, and like I didn't even know that Catherine Zeta-Jones was like a trained theater actor. And also Renée Zellweger was like ripped, like she has like the craziest back muscles in this movie.

[6:56] Mark Peikert: So, okay, so I rewatched the movie last night so that we could have this conversation.

[7:01] Mary Neely: Yes, I rewatched this morning.

[7:03] Mark Peikert: I loved it just as much. There are a few things. There always are. I'm impossible to please, Mary.

[7:11] Mary Neely: When she—I'm gonna say it. I'm just gonna say it. I think she's a better dancer in "Hot Honey Rag" than Catherine Zeta-Jones.

[7:17] Mark Peikert: Hmm.

[7:19] Mary Neely: Yeah. Also, I don't know if it's just bones sticking out or if those are muscles, but either way, she's rocking it.

[7:20] Mark Peikert: Rocking it.

[7:30] Mary Neely: I was like, whoa. She's so, so good in this movie. And let's put this all in perspective. 2002 was maybe the last movie when adults still—the last year when adults still went to the movie theater. Because here were the movies released that were nominated for Oscars that year. Chicago.

[7:54] Mark Peikert: Yes.

[7:56] Mary Neely: Gangs of New York. Adaptation. Far from Heaven. The Hours.

[8:08] Mark Peikert: Oh my god.

[8:10] Mary Neely: And you're just like, what? How? How in one single calendar year?

[8:14] Mark Peikert: No, I know. I feel like that's what happens when you look back at Oscar nominations. In like, yeah, like I guess it is any time between or before 2002, 2003. It's like every single one is like just incredible. And then it's like so insane to wrap your mind around the fact that they all were competing against each other.

[8:38] Mark Peikert: I know, I know. And there are so many things about this movie that are so genius. One, I think that they did a great job with the score.

[8:48] Mary Neely: Uh-huh.

[8:49] Mark Peikert: In terms of the performance, I mean, even Richard Gere's weird, weird accent that he always does on the songs kind of works for me. It's also strange to watch it almost 20 years later. Because I remember back then I was like, oh, Richard Gere is old now. Oh, he's so old now. And watching it today or yesterday, I was like, oh my god, he's so sexy.

[9:13] Mary Neely: Handsome man, yeah.

[9:14] Mark Peikert: Oh, he's a very handsome gentleman, and I'm here for it.

[9:19] Mary Neely: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I do want to address a few things before we continue with our love letter to Chicago and to Renée Zellweger, who I have always been obsessed with.

[9:33] Mark Peikert: She's amazing. What derailed her career for a while was she became so famous. She is a character actress who was never supposed to be a movie star.

[9:43] Mary Neely: Interesting take.

[9:45] Mark Peikert: Yeah. Because you watch the things where she's trying to do the leading lady thing. Like that, what was that weird rom-com where she moved to Alaska and Harry Connick Jr. was there?

[9:59] Mary Neely: Oh no, I don't even know what that is.

[10:02] Mark Peikert: Exactly. But you know about "Nurse Betty" and you know about "Bridget Jones's Diary," of course.

[10:09] Mary Neely: Of course, she was so good in "Cold Mountain," too.

[10:13] Mark Peikert: Did you ever see that?

[10:14] Mary Neely: Of course, I only cried once, and I only had one tear, and I stole that one from a crocodile.

[10:20] Mark Peikert: Yeah.

[10:21] Mary Neely: Oscar.

[10:23] Mark Peikert: Oscar. Well, they gave her the Oscar because they gave Nicole Kidman the Oscar for "The Hours" instead of Renée Zellweger for Chicago because Nicole had lost for "The Others" and "Moulin Rouge" the year before. So then the next year they had to give Renée an Oscar because they had given Nicole her Chicago Oscar.

[10:40] Mary Neely: Yes.

[10:41] Mark Peikert: Yes, it's yes. Which is all moot because Julianne Moore should have won both Oscars in 2003 for "Far From Heaven" and "The Hours."

[10:48] Mary Neely: Yes. Julianne Moore.

[10:51] Mark Peikert: That's just fact. All of them, I can't even, they're all just geniuses.

[10:57] Mary Neely: So I have a question for you.

[10:59] Mark Peikert: Yes.

[11:00] Mary Neely: Famously, in this movie, they filmed and cut Catherine Zeta-Jones and Queen Latifah singing "Class" because it didn't fit in with the overarching structure of the numbers that take place in Roxy's imagination.

[11:16] Mark Peikert: Right.

[11:17] Mary Neely: Yes. So why did they include "Mr. Cellophane"? Do you think it's because Amos is like more related to Roxy and could be like in her kind of like subconscious than Velma and Matron Mama Morton?

[11:44] Mark Peikert: Maybe. I just think they're married.

[11:46] Mary Neely: Cards on the table. I really hate "Mr. Cellophane."

[11:52] Mark Peikert: Oh my god.

[11:53] Mary Neely: Guess what? I sang that in the review. In another, in yet another review. I sang that. I had a little clown nose on. And at the end I said, um, sorry if I took up too much of your time, or whatever the line is. And then I heard some mom go, "Aww," from the audience, and I was like, nailed it.

[12:18] Mary Neely: And I was in like, I don't know, I was like 13.

[12:21] Mark Peikert: I was like, yes.

[12:24] Mary Neely: I love that. And you just you flew home on that wave of adulation.

[12:28] Mark Peikert: Yes. Oh, yeah. I was like, this is performing.

[12:34] Mary Neely: No, I get what you're saying, though, because it is structured like her imagination, her like desire to become a performer, and her placing herself at the very beginning.

[12:46] Mark Peikert: I mean, that's kind of like how we're introduced to her character is her imagining herself in Velma's place, and it's a fabrication of her mind or whatever.

[13:01] Mary Neely: My other thing in the movie, and I'm really struggling to find things to bitch about with this movie.

[13:05] Mark Peikert: I know it's hard.

[13:07] Mary Neely: It is the ugliest diary I have ever seen in my life.

[13:13] Mark Peikert: Yes. Like, did someone just go to like Joann's and get some shiny metallic fabric and some pipe cleaners and then laboriously decorate a book?

[13:26] Mary Neely: Yeah, I wonder, like, I wonder if they have um like like what like the historical accuracy is.

[13:37] Mark Peikert: Like, is there a dramaturg on set who's like actually this kind of fabric didn't exist in 1920? Do you know what I mean?

[13:45] Mary Neely: And they said, don't care. We're gonna do it. I don't care. It's a Hollywood movie, baby. We're stretching the imagination.

[13:54] Mark Peikert: So I have a feeling that you are also an IMDB trivia nerd like myself.

[14:00] Mary Neely: Oh, I do I do love the trivia.

[14:04] Mark Peikert: So my two favorite things, one is an actual bit of trivia, and another is phrasing. My two favorite bits of trivia on IMDB about Chicago are one, uh Christine Baranski plays Mary Sunshine, which, spoiler alert, on stage is a man in drag who is then revealed to be a man in act two.

[14:24] Mary Neely: I don't remember that.

[14:25] Mark Peikert: What?

[14:26] Mary Neely: Oh yeah.

[14:27] Mark Peikert: It probably flew over your childhood mind.

[14:29] Mary Neely: Yeah, I was just like, oh haha, whatever. Not paying attention.

[14:35] Mark Peikert: Uh where's Brenda Braxton? So uh Christine Baranski said in an interview that she felt guilty for taking a role away from a drag queen.

[14:44] Mary Neely: So in her head, she decided that uh she would play Mary Sunshine as a closeted lesbian.

[14:50] Mark Peikert: Just a fabulous 1920s lesbian.

[14:53] Mary Neely: Bringing representation to the role.

[14:56] Mark Peikert: Yep, I love that. My other favorite bit of trivia is uh it's one of those people who's like, hmm. In the song All That Jazz, they reference Lucky Lindy.

[15:08] Mary Neely: Lucky Lindy was the nickname for aviation pioneer and noted anti-Semite Charles Lindbergh.

[15:16] Mark Peikert: Oh no.

[15:18] Mary Neely: He was a noted anti-Semite, and he was very uh oh Kepler, we love him.

[15:24] Mark Peikert: And a eugenicist. Uh but I just love I love the fact that someone felt the need to point that out.

[15:31] Mary Neely: Yeah.

[15:33] Mark Peikert: In the Chicago trivia.

[15:35] Mary Neely: I feel like also that trivia was probably written in like 2003.

[15:40] Mark Peikert: Oh yeah.

[15:43] Mary Neely: So instead of instead of there being like a tweet like debunking thread on like, well, guess what? This part is actually anti-Semitic.

[15:54] Mark Peikert: It's just hidden in this like IMDB trivia from 2003.

[15:58] Mary Neely: I love Secret Trivia. I really really do.

[16:02] Mark Peikert: Yeah. Um so when is your go-to song from Chicago?

[16:11] Mary Neely: Oh man, I love um I love Roxy Hart.

[16:19] Mark Peikert: Roxy.

[16:20] Mary Neely: Is it just Roxy? Is that just the name of the song?

[16:22] Mark Peikert: Roxy.

[16:23] Mary Neely: Yeah. Let me pull up my playbill again.

[16:26] Mark Peikert: Reference the musical numbers.

[16:29] Mary Neely: It's uh great song. I also love I can't do it alone, because I can't do it alone. I love that song.

[16:36] Mark Peikert: I used to sing that song and do and do like my own choreography in my room.

[16:43] Mary Neely: Oh, what was your choreography?

[16:45] Mark Peikert: Oh, just like a very watered down, bad version of what um Catherine Zeta-Jones does in the in the film.

[16:53] Mary Neely: You know, honestly, where is this? Where is this lip sync video from you?

[16:58] Mark Peikert: Oh gosh, I know, right? This is the one that people are clamoring for.

[17:04] Mary Neely: That's true. There are a few songs that I because I the whole point of my thread was like all the songs that really meant a lot to me growing up, and I felt like if I did ones that I didn't know that well, it would feel really inauthentic and not the same.

[17:20] Mark Peikert: But there are like a few, like maybe like less than four that like I didn't do that. I'm like, I feel like it's the the time is past, but hey, you can revive at any time.

[17:33] Mary Neely: You know what? We should really talk about reviving that uh in conjunction with the release of this episode.

[17:38] Mark Peikert: So we hit them on all fronts.

[17:40] Mary Neely: Oh, wow, branding.

[17:43] Mark Peikert: Synergy.

[17:44] Mary Neely: Oh, I love Synergy.

[17:45] Mark Peikert: Yes.

[17:47] Mary Neely: I think Roxy is probably my favorite number. It's a perfectly written song, and the monologue is brilliant.

[17:57] Mark Peikert: Yes. It's so good. And her the costumes.

[18:03] Mary Neely: Oh good.

[18:06] Mark Peikert: I mean, that the staging of that number is so mesmerizing.

[18:12] Mary Neely: Yes.

[18:13] Mark Peikert: And I remember I went on a date with a boyfriend at the time, my second time seeing Chicago.

[18:18] Mary Neely: And he was about to go to the bathroom.

[18:22] Mark Peikert: And I was like, don't you dare. Roxy's about to happen.

[18:24] Mary Neely: And then the number ended.

[18:26] Mark Peikert: The number ended.

[18:27] Mary Neely: And he was like, oh, thank you. That's the only number I was really excited about from the trailer.

[18:30] Mark Peikert: And I was like, yeah, because you have eyes.

[18:34] Mary Neely: Yeah, yeah. You're like, wow, I'm glad that you said that, otherwise, we wouldn't go on any more dates.

[18:41] Mark Peikert: And we and we were together for a year and a half.

[18:44] Mary Neely: Oh wonderful.

[18:46] Mark Peikert: Yes.

[18:47] Mary Neely: I don't know where he is now.

[18:48] Mark Peikert: I can't find him online.

[18:50] Mary Neely: Oh, really? You've looked for him?

[18:52] Mark Peikert: Okay.

[18:53] Mary Neely: In recent times?

[18:54] Mark Peikert: Oh, I Google, like it was the pandemic. I have nothing else to do.

[18:57] Mary Neely: No, literally going through the whole thing.

[18:59] Mark Peikert: I know that's I kind of I did the same thing at the beginning of the lockdown.

[19:04] Mary Neely: Hey, you still with that girl? What's up?

[19:07] Mark Peikert: How's everything going?

[19:09] Mary Neely: I'm by myself.

[19:12] Mark Peikert: Oh, oh, to be alone.

[19:14] Mary Neely: The greatest luxury during pandemic times is loneliness.

[19:20] Mark Peikert: Yes, actually, because uh while I did text a few men from my past at the beginning of all of this, I do have to say I'm very thankful I'm not stuck with some like boy who doesn't know how to do his own laundry because I would have kicked him out already.

[19:38] Mary Neely: Well, it's very easy to do laundry.

[19:40] Mark Peikert: Uh I you unscrew the broom from the broomstick and you wash your clothes in the tub with dish soap.

[19:48] Mary Neely: And then you then you use a salad spinner to dry your delicates.

[19:52] Mark Peikert: Oh, thank you. I should tell I you should actually text all of my exes and tell them that.

[20:00] Mary Neely: But here is my train of thought.

[20:02] Mark Peikert: Uh boys who don't know how to do their own laundry.

[20:04] Mary Neely: Oh, I would have shot them dead like Roxy shoots Fred Casely dead.

[20:07] Mark Peikert: Oh, right.

[20:09] Mary Neely: Another important point that I wanted to address. The one the one actual thing that I do not love about the movie is, and I understand why they did it.

[20:19] Mark Peikert: They soften Roxy by changing her reaction to shooting Fred.

[20:26] Mary Neely: Oh, like she's not as angry.

[20:30] Mark Peikert: So well, and like vindicated or something. On Broadway, she shoots him, he dies, and her only reaction is I gotta pee.

[20:39] Mary Neely: Oh.

[20:40] Mark Peikert: And here she's like sobbing and shaking.

[20:43] Mary Neely: Yeah.

[20:44] Mark Peikert: Makes her, it makes it more of a moment of passion and less of like, oh fuck you asshole.

[20:51] Mary Neely: No, I'm gonna be a star and you're not standing in my way.

[20:55] Mark Peikert: True.

[20:56] Mary Neely: True, true, true.

[20:58] Mark Peikert: But I also don't know if I want to sit and watch a movie where a woman kills a man and then turns to the camera for all intents and purposes and says, I gotta pee.

[21:10] Mary Neely: Yeah, I mean, I'm uh 100%. I'm sure that was the creative team in the studio being like, we have to make her kind of likable.

[21:20] Mark Peikert: And what's shocking to me upon rewatch is how little they actually do to make her likable.

[21:28] Mary Neely: Yeah, but you you're on her side, like throughout basically the entire movie.

[21:35] Mark Peikert: But she really doesn't soften the character and she does not go for sympathy.

[21:41] Mary Neely: And she's very stupid.

[21:44] Mark Peikert: Yeah.

[21:46] Mary Neely: In a way that isn't making fun of the stupidity.

[21:50] Mark Peikert: No, I know. I mean, it's like I feel like your first kind of glimpse that, like, oh, this girl doesn't really have a handle on reality, is like her genuinely believing that this like furniture salesman is gonna get her like some performance job or something.

[22:09] Mary Neely: And like she just is believing everything that he's saying and just going along with it.

[22:14] Mark Peikert: And like, and then yeah, like her like kind of inundation into like the prison and and like the way that the first couple interactions she has with Velma and how like basically Velma's like, don't touch my underwear, you know, like that kind of thing.

[22:32] Mary Neely: It's like yeah, it's it's interesting.

[22:35] Mark Peikert: Same.

[22:35] Mary Neely: Yeah, actually, please don't.

[22:38] Mark Peikert: I mean, Renee Zellweger, Roxy, if you want to go watch someone's underwear, uh, Mary has a list of exes who don't know how.

[22:45] Mary Neely: So they need it, they need it more so much.

[22:47] Mark Peikert: So I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna add Roxy to our group chat and introduce her to them so she can get them squared away.

[22:55] Mary Neely: I also I think it's really easy to forget that this was not a surefire hit when it came out.

[23:02] Mark Peikert: This was a huge, huge risky gamble that we all kind of thought was going to be just another flop because there had not been a successful movie musical since the best little whorehouse in Texas.

[23:15] Mary Neely: And I read too that the last time, the time before Chicago, the last time that uh a musical won Best Picture was like Oliver in like 1968 or something.

[23:26] Mark Peikert: Yes, yes, it has like really been a minute, and I mean totally deserved.

[23:33] Mary Neely: I think it really is a great movie.

[23:34] Mark Peikert: I think even with that list of movies that we listed earlier, uh this one is still a brilliant engrossing piece of cinema and works on every level that you could ask a movie to work on.

[23:47] Mary Neely: The other thing, the other thing that kind of gets lost over the course of history is it was a big deal that they cast Queen Latifah.

[23:57] Mark Peikert: And it doesn't seem like that now because she's done so much.

[23:59] Mary Neely: I mean, she played Bessie Smith for HBO for that for that uh movie, which is basically Mama Morton in retrospect, is kind of her audition to play Bessie Smith.

[24:10] Mark Peikert: But she's one of the standouts of the movie.

[24:14] Mary Neely: She's so good, she's so good.

[24:18] Mark Peikert: They're all great, and young Susan Meisner was uh pop that gum one more time, Bernie.

[24:26] Mary Neely: Yeah, and Susan Meisner, for those of you who uh don't know, played Joan McCracken in Fossey Verdon on FX.

[24:36] Mark Peikert: Perfect segue.

[24:38] Mary Neely: She was she was Stan's wife on The Americans.

[24:42] Mary Neely: Amazing. And I believe she played Lonely Boy and Little Jay's mother on Gossip Girl.

[24:51] Mark Peikert: Oh my god. Working, a working actress. We love to see it.

[24:56] Mary Neely: We love to see it. Love it.

[25:02] Mark Peikert: So I do want to address the stage versions because this is one of those shows that has such an insane history. Starting with I mean, there's that entire episode of Fosse Verden dedicated to how horrible they were to each other in the making of Chicago and all of the shit that went down behind the scenes.

[25:24] Mary Neely: But never forget, Liza Minelli stepped in after learning the role in like two days and played Roxy for a couple of weeks. Incredible. Never forget that.

[25:37] Mark Peikert: So this is new information. I just found this out. I do not think that this is public knowledge. When they did it at Encores, when they did the production at Encores that eventually transferred to Broadway and won all the Tonies and is still running if Broadway were running, it was supposed to be Bibi Newworth as Velma and Liza as Roxy.

[25:56] Mary Neely: And Liza dropped out at the last minute because there was a scheduling conflict. And Ryan King was always going to choreograph. And she said, Oh, well, I guess I already know the choreography, and I have done it before. Okay, I'll sure, I'll play Roxy.

[26:12] Mark Peikert: And find that that happened again. Like Liza doing the opposite this time, then.

[26:18] Mary Neely: Yeah. This was Annie's turn to shine.

[26:21] Mark Peikert: Yes. Everything happens for a reason. And important note the Broadway Chicago does not recreate the original Fosse choreography. It is Fosse-esque choreography.

[26:34] Mary Neely: Well, that's fascinating. Trivia added to the IMDB.

[26:41] Mark Peikert: Um but I because I was reading too like a little bit about how I was reading about how um the original it was a play.

[26:54] Mary Neely: Yeah.

[26:55] Mark Peikert: It was like a play, and then the original Broadway show actually didn't last that long.

[27:03] Mary Neely: No. It like was it was like less than a thousand performances, and then it became the longest running revival when it was revived.

[27:12] Mark Peikert: It's everyone always says that Chicago was ahead of its time. Uh I actually don't think that's true. I think that the story of Chicago is timeless.

[27:20] Mary Neely: Uh, and I think that it applies to any era. And I think that when it's up against a chorus line, which is not an extremely dark, cynical, sexy show. People wanted to see the new thing and not Chicago, which kind of makes you feel bad about being it indicts the audience.

[27:41] Mark Peikert: You are you have paid money to sit in the theater to watch this show about murderers who have careers because audiences buy tickets to see them perform.

[27:52] Mary Neely: Yeah. And so it forces you to ask if you were part of the problem as well. When it's done right.

[27:57] Mark Peikert: Uh and I will say I have only seen Chicago on stage at once, and that was with Miss Lisa Renna and her husband, Mr. Harry Hanlon.

[28:06] Mary Neely: Oh wow. Wonderful.

[28:08] Mark Peikert: It was great.

[28:10] Mary Neely: So cool. Sorry, there was a tone to my voice, but actually, I really love Lisa Renna, and she was a fantastic Roxy.

[28:16] Mark Peikert: No, the way that you said it actually made me think that it was like you were like presenting the information. And I was like, you're for it. Great.

[28:25] Mary Neely: It was wonderful. Yes, perfect.

[28:28] Mark Peikert: There's also, for those of you who want to continue a deep dive, and Mary, if you have not seen this, I highly recommend that you get on it. So Goldie Hahn and Liza Manelli had a TV special in the early 80s called Goldie and Liza together.

[28:46] Mary Neely: Oh wow.

[28:48] Mark Peikert: There are many highlights. Among them, uh Goldie Hahn wearing a trench coat sings YMCA while scantily clad muscle men bench press her.

[28:59] Mary Neely: Perfect aesthetic.

[29:02] Mark Peikert: Liza sings bad girls with slow-mo choreography.

[29:08] Mary Neely: Okay.

[29:10] Mark Peikert: And it ends with the two of them doing all that jazz.

[29:16] Mary Neely: Wow.

[29:18] Mark Peikert: Which is which is basically their audition for the movie because they thought that it was happening. One of the many permutations that this movie has had over the years was Goldie Hahn and Liza were going to do it.

[29:31] Mary Neely: And Goldie Hahn would be Roxy.

[29:34] Mark Peikert: Yes. Okay. Incredible alternate universe thing to think about.

[29:39] Mary Neely: Right.

[29:40] Mark Peikert: Yeah. It's like uh when they were working on the Evita movie, which went also took forever to come to screen.

[29:49] Mary Neely: Liza did a 30-minute taped audition for director Ken Russell.

[29:54] Mark Peikert: Oh my gosh.

[29:55] Mary Neely: Like wearing the blonde wig and doing like fully made up, costumed as Ava Perone.

[30:01] Mark Peikert: Where is that footage? I would spend so much money on that footage.

[30:10] Mary Neely: Archive it, archive it for our personal use to just production admire.

[30:17] Mark Peikert: It's our idea that we need to get copies and then auction it off, but we're uh free copies.

[30:24] Mary Neely: Yes.

[30:26] Mark Peikert: Uh and then of course Madonna was in talks to do it at one point.

[30:32] Mary Neely: Yes, yeah.

[30:34] Mark Peikert: Which I it doesn't throw me.

[30:38] Mary Neely: It doesn't make me as excited as the prospect of a Goldie and Liza situation.

[30:43] Mark Peikert: I can't even imagine. I mean, I guess as Roxy again, she would be Roxy, Madonna.

[30:52] Mary Neely: I'm not sure. Because I don't I kind of could see maybe that, but it would be I feel like it would have one of those weird like 80s or not like early 90s aesthetics of like really cheesy, like where like now we would be like it would be so camp, and we'd be like, uh-huh, love it, but haha, you know, but like the Renee Zellweger and Catherine Zeta Jones is so perfect, it uh to take it seriously.

[31:25] Mark Peikert: It is not aged, like it doesn't seem like a time capsule, even down to the cast, because so often you watch a movie and you're like, oh, what happened to that person? Or oh wow, yeah, they're all still here.

[31:36] Mary Neely: Remember when Josh Hartnett was a thing?

[31:38] Mark Peikert: Yeah, yeah.

[31:40] Mary Neely: Yeah, yeah.

[31:40] Mark Peikert: But this, like Tay Diggs is still working and thriving, Richard Gere is still working.

[31:45] Mary Neely: Like those obviously Renee Zellweger just had a huge comeback with Judy.

[31:50] Mark Peikert: Yes, yes.

[31:51] Mary Neely: And it's just it's a flawless cast.

[31:55] Mark Peikert: I really do think it is a flawless movie. Uh an almost flawless movie.

[31:59] Mary Neely: I know the costume design.

[32:01] Mark Peikert: I kind of can't get over Oscar.

[32:03] Mary Neely: Yeah, talk about it again. Oscar-winning costume design.

[32:06] Mark Peikert: So what's what's your favorite Roxy dress?

[32:10] Mary Neely: Well, I did already reference the Roxy dress in Roxy, the number. But actually, funny honey, like when she she had I actually noticed it more upon this viewing.

[32:28] She's wearing, I love this this pink kind of like slip that she's wearing, but then these garters that are so detailed, like this gorgeous silk that's just pinned in like the most incredible way, holding up her stockings.

[32:45] Mark Peikert: I was like, give me this entire outfit, please. I'll wear it to just like a party because now you can wear lingerie as a as a thing.

[32:54] Mary Neely: It's like a fashion thing now. I do it. If I could go to a party.

[33:00] Mark Peikert: You always could.

[33:01] Mary Neely: People might look askance at you, but you could always go to a party in your underwear.

[33:05] Mark Peikert: Like you always could.

[33:06] Mary Neely: You always could go to a party in your underwear. Come on.

[33:09] Mark Peikert: No, but now I feel like it's more acceptable.

[33:12] Mary Neely: Like I feel like people wouldn't wouldn't be questioned to be like, oh yeah, that's just fashion. Do you know what I mean?

[33:18] Mark Peikert: Oh, I love fashion.

[33:19] Mary Neely: Mm-hmm.

[33:21] Mark Peikert: I think my favorite Roxy dress is the black sequined nowadays dress.

[33:28] Mary Neely: Like cut down to her navel.

[33:31] Mark Peikert: Oh my god, I know. And of course she's ripped, so it looks perfect.

[33:36] Mary Neely: Oh, and we do need to point out before I ask my final question. We do need to point out she was way ahead of the curve in terms of giving herself a quarantine haircut because she gave a tight peroxide perm with nothing but a prison mirror, an old toothbrush, and a contraband bottle of Proxide.

[33:57] Mark Peikert: Final question. Does this move does this musical stand on its own without knowledge that it is a Broadway show?

[34:07] Mary Neely: I think it does.

[34:08] Mark Peikert: Yeah, 100%. It's one of the very few that I think it's one of the very few that I think does not benefit from knowledge of the original stage property.

[34:18] Mary Neely: Yeah, because I think from what I read, it actually the film actually reinvigorated the Broadway version.

[34:27] Mark Peikert: Oh yeah.

[34:27] Mary Neely: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[34:29] Mark Peikert: So it actually was like it worked in reverse almost.

[34:33] Mary Neely: Because yeah, the film is I think the film does such an incredible way of combining theatric the theatricality of stage moments where they have a lot of shots where it's clearly like they're trying to emulate a Broadway feel of like looking at like a theater, you know, in all in a lot of the numbers, because it's so built in to the narrative, too, that it's like a performing.

[35:05] Mark Peikert: That's part of like the story is that they're vaudeville and cabaret performers or whatever, and it does such a good job of combining that theatricality with the kind of like set of just like an uh a standard Hollywood movie.

[35:26] Mary Neely: Where it has both pieces seamlessly integrated, in my opinion.

[35:33] Mark Peikert: Well, there you have it, guys. The verdict is unanimous, not guilty.

[35:39] Mary Neely: And this is movie musical magic.

[35:44] Mark Peikert: Yes, 100%. Mary Neely, thank you so much for joining me today. What a delight.

[35:48] Mary Neely: Thank you. Oh, I had so much fun. Thank you for having me.

[35:54] Mark Peikert: I'm just I'm so happy that you chose this one.

[35:56] Mary Neely: So I got to talk about something, I got to watch something that I really love.

[36:00] Mark Peikert: Yeah, I was happy too, because I was like worried when when I read the description, I was like, oh no, is he gonna want me to talk shit about this movie? Because I really love it.

[36:09] Mary Neely: And then I was so happy, like immediately, you were like, so I love this movie. I was like, thank God.

[36:17] Mark Peikert: I mean, I can make anybody hate anything for one minute, but I didn't need to this time.

[36:22] Mary Neely: Wonderful. Uh thank you so much.

[36:25] Mark Peikert: And everyone, thank you for listening. And please tune in next week for another episode of Movie Musical Madness.

[36:36] Mark Peikert: This episode of Movie Musical Madness was edited by Kyle Moore with Theme Music by Sunshine Music.

[36:43] Mark Peikert: And thank you for listening to Movie Musical Madness, part of the Broadway Podcast Network. You can find out more about the podcast and me at BPN.fm slash movie musical madness.