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[0:00] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Hi, my odd squad. It's me, Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo, your host of Odd Woman Out, a podcast where we talk to women artists about what it is like to be a woman in the entertainment industry, the struggles we face, how to overcome our insecurities, how to stand in our power. And we have so much fun while we have these conversations and we laugh a lot. So thank you for tuning in. I promise this episode you're going to listen to is going to be so iconic. So don't forget to like, subscribe and follow. Call up a friend, tell them about this really cool podcast you listen to called Odd Woman Out. And also call up a woman in your life and remind her how absolutely fierce she is. I love you my odd squad. Hi, Kate Rockwell. Welcome to Odd Woman Out.

[0:46] Kate Rockwell: Hi, thanks for having me.

[0:50] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Oh my god, I'm so happy to have you here. This is going to be fun. We're already having way too much fun.

[0:53] Kate Rockwell: I know we've done the whole podcast already.

[0:58] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Yeah, I think we were so we can pull the clips. We have so much career stuff to talk about. You have had and are continuing to have such an iconic, fun performing career.

[1:04] Kate Rockwell: I have done a lot of fun.

[1:06] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Yes. But this show is called Odd Woman Out, obviously. So I like to always kick it off talking about the woman of it all. So I want to start off by asking about a time in your life or in the industry where you have felt like the odd woman out and what it means to you.

[1:15] Kate Rockwell: I am. I think I've only ever been the odd woman out.

[1:28] Kate Rockwell: Same. I feel like I've always been the one that like didn't quite fit the puzzle. I feel like all through, even when I was younger, because I didn't perform other than like with my school, like that was the theater that I had until I got to college. But like in school, I was like that. I never got the lead roles. I always got the like it's like you couldn't deny that I was like good at something, but like she never could figure out where to put me. And the joke's on them. Well, yeah, she's dead. So the joke is on her. It's OK. All right. All right. No, but she but like she couldn't figure out what to do with me. And then I went to college and I kind of felt like my director in college couldn't figure out what to do with me.

And then I came to New York and I was like, oh, I don't think New York knows what to do with me. And I've always sort of been that like like the peripheral character in my own career. And I think I've just sort of come to terms with that. I don't know. I'd like it's comfortable now. Yeah, it's OK to. Well, it's worked.

[2:29] Kate Rockwell: Yeah, it's interesting. You know, you're like I was talking about this with somebody the other day. You're like, I get to I have had the opportunity to like really revel in my own weirdness. Yeah. So many times because the roles that I've gotten to build and create and play are those are weird. Yeah. And that's neat. Like I've gotten to try my own weird little weird march. Yeah. And and it's kind of glorious. It's definitely like sometimes it's uncomfortable, but it also means that I have never really felt the pressure or I should say in many years I have not felt the pressure to like be like other people, which is really nice because that pressure is suffocating.

[3:16] Kate Rockwell: So debilitating. Yeah. So it's good in a lot of ways to be able to be the odd woman out. Did you go to school as a theater major? Is it something you found there?

[3:23] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Oh, I did. So even when they weren't giving you the lead, you're like, I'm doing it. Yeah. That's sweet. Boring little white girl from Ohio who went to musical theater school. That was me. No, I just I wanted to perform immediately. Always. I my mom would say, like, I was born singing. Like I just like came out singing. Yeah. And certainly not tapping. I have never wanted to tap. Please don't make me. Got it. Thank you. You can you can make me do the moves and someone else can do the sounds. Yes. It's so it's not my skill.

[4:11] Kate Rockwell: Oh, me either. The movement part isn't my skill. I only do it when I'm when I'm dry. When you're forced to do this dance move, you're like copy. Fine. I will do it. Thank you. But yeah, I wanted to be a performer always. And I found theater. My parents loved theater. I was raised on musical theater. They weren't performers themselves, but they were avid fans. And so I grew up listening to like record, you know, original cast records. We had a record player and then going to see like the touring productions that came through. I grew up in Cincinnati, Ohio. So we would go to the Aronoff Center and see all the shows that came through. And so those two things just sort of like naturally led me into doing mostly musicals with plays as well. You know, like when I was in high school and that there was like very little question that that was what I was going to do with my life.

[5:01] Kate Rockwell: Yeah. There was like a little diversion for a little while. I wanted to be a zoologist. And then incredible. And then I think someone told me how much school I was going to have to go to to do that. And so we re-diverted back to theater. I'm not even sure what a zoologist is, to be really honest.

[5:06] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: There are the people who like take care of the animals at the zoo.

[5:10] Kate Rockwell: Got it. So it's I think it's like a facet of veterinary medicine. Got it. So, you know, medicine. Yeah. Which is a no. Which is different than theater school. It's not going to work out for me. But I would I still think I still think it would be really cool to like be the person that like gives the tiger the manicure. You know what I mean? That's a cool job. Somebody's job is to like hang out with a tiger and get it to like put its foot through the box and then you like file down. That's a neat way to spend a life. Yeah. I still think that I would have enjoyed it.

[5:41] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: You can do it all. All the schools are requiring to touch the tiger. Maybe you can play a zoologist that will like fulfill both dreams maybe.

[5:48] Kate Rockwell: I do. I feel that way about being a lawyer, too. I'm like I could have been a lawyer, but that's too much school. So I'll just play one someday. But you did kind of. Elle Woods. Kind of. Yeah. Kind of. Kind of. I understudied the lawyer. Yeah. Lawyer understudy. Close enough. So so I want you to think about like baby Kate in a younger version you just talked about. You came out singing and was there a woman influence either in your personal life or somebody that was doing the thing that you admired that inspired you?

[6:07] Kate Rockwell: I feel like I was inspired by so many different women. I was a huge Bernadette Peters fan when I was a kid, which is again like hashtag everybody is. But also because Annie, too, I think got us. Yes, literally that. And I actually think that performance was one of the things that was like, oh, it's fun to be the funny one. Yes. You know, and Carol Burnett also like watching women do like be ugly and be funny and be silly and not always having to be pretty and gentle and demure and whatever all those other words are that we describe engineers with. But I think watching those women do those things, I think was so. I want to say like light like that was like the spark where you're like, oh, hang on, that looks interesting.

And, you know, watching episodes of I Love Lucy and learning about comedy, watching this woman who is so stunning and beautiful and clearly brilliant, intentionally make herself look foolish. Yeah. But scientifically, like that was really educational to me. Yeah. There are so many more than that. But I think that that was all incredibly motivating to me. Right. When I was trying to figure out like what kind of a performer I wanted.

[7:34] Kate Rockwell: Yeah. Because like, yeah, I could have the pretty voice and I could wear the pretty dress. And but I don't know how much more fun to not. Yeah. It's more fun to have all those things and then fall. Right. Right. The pretty boys have the pretty dress and then trip over yourself and fall on a banana peel and fall down the stairs. Exactly. Stomp on some. That's more fun. Yeah, for sure. Stomp on some grapes. Yeah. Stomp on some grapes. Exactly. I love that. And I resonate with that so much. Now I want you to think about when you first started working professionally at the Carousel Dinner Theater in Akron, Ohio.

[8:01] Kate Rockwell: Oh, my God. First professional. Shout out. I'm sure it's gone. I'm sure we have to check it out. But if it is not dead, go check it out and support it.

[8:12] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Yeah. If they're if they're still kicking. Yes. So was there a woman when you first started working that sort of showed you the ropes that was like a woman supporting women type of thing? I like to ask this question because I do feel like women get a bad rep of being like cutthroat and bitchy. So I always love to talk about the support and like the uplifting.

[8:25] Kate Rockwell: You know what? I'm going to answer the question. The answer is actually no. And I actually had quite a bit of of the cutthroat energy in the beginning of my career at the Carousel Dinner. Not at the Carousel Dinner Theater. No, that was a I it was a very male dominated environment when I was working there, which is and they were lovely. There's nothing to say negative about them. But in other facets of the beginning of my career, without throwing too many actual people under the bus on this podcast, there was quite a bit of competitive negative female energy in my life in the beginning of my career. And I think what I took from that is I will never do that. I will never be that. I will never do that. This generational trauma ends with me and I can't pass that on. And so I have all that like you recognized it and you're like, this is not it.

[9:29] Kate Rockwell: Yeah, I think I think it was very motivating. And, you know, it's like you can be motivated positively or negatively. And I was motivated by the negative. And I like I think I just decided that was something I had absolutely no desire to replicate. And then good for you for for knowing that. And then now you're you're working all the time with all with younger generations and teaching them something new. So beautiful and cool.

[9:46] Kate Rockwell: Yeah. And I mean, I for so many years have been the I was the oldest woman in the room for many, many years, because I did a lot of shows that were predominantly young people. And so I feel like I've had a lot of opportunity to sort of experience what it feels like to to be able to decide the tone. Right. And and now I guess I'm still doing it. I'm still one of the older people in the room, at least at the show that I've been working on recently. And it's fun that way. But I also love when now I'm the youngest person in the room of adults.

[10:22] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're like, I'm the youngest one. Hi, everyone.

[10:25] Kate Rockwell: Doesn't happen very often anymore. The numbers aren't working in my favor for that anymore.

[10:30] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: And it's me. I'm the youngest. OK, so speaking of the competitive cutthroatness, I do want to talk about you're the one that I want. I was telling you, like last night, I was down a rabbit hole of that show. I completely forgot about it. But I was an active watcher when that did you watch it?

[10:39] Kate Rockwell: Yes. Because all I wanted to do was like be in Broadway and whatever. And it was there handed to us. So what was what was that experience like? And tell us some tea now that the NDA is up.

[10:56] Kate Rockwell: Yeah, because you can't come for me anymore. No, it was a pretty wild experience. It was my first job in New York because I did audition for it here. So like I just moved here and I was very young and very excited. And well, you've made it also to the top. And it was a huge job.

[11:16] Kate Rockwell: Yeah, I have always said, like, I feel like it was such an incredible introduction for me. I mean, I I was not the one that they wanted, but they still I still got to, like, perform on national television. And I and I always feel like I represented myself pretty well. And I think it definitely helped to move the needle a little bit. And then when I was getting to know casting directors, you know, I think that was very useful. The experience itself was awful. It was it was so wildly manipulative. You know, they would lock us in the room and with a P.A. and a camera. And until you said the line the way they wanted you to say it, they wouldn't let you out. And so you had we would the 12 of us who it was technically 14 people that were on the actual live show at the very end. First, it was 12 and then they brought two people back on.

[12:08] Kate Rockwell: So it's 14, but every single night we would go downstairs in the basement in the cloth. There's a walk-in closet through the bathroom through a bedroom and it was the only place that people with cameras would not come because they had to walk through a bathroom, right? And so we would all every single night meet in that room and we would sit down and we would plot out what every single person would say about everybody else so that it was always the same and no one could ever use any of it against us. So we were really united. It's really cool that you guys did that because we were right away. We were like we're not competing. This is crazy. This is fun and weird and insane and all we all want to do is like have a good time and if you get a Broadway show out of it and if you don't that's okay, too.

Yeah, so we were like, no, we're not we're not doing this. We're not being pitted against each other the way that they were trying to pit us against. That's crazy. And but they would they would like and so then they got mad at us because we were doing that and we were wrecking their like they wanted to like make us look like we were all so catty and we were cutthroat.

[13:08] Kate Rockwell: And so yeah, so we would just like get locked in a room. I was I had one interview that lasted an hour and 40 minutes because I would not say the things that they wanted me to say because I didn't think they were true. I was like, that's not real. I don't feel that way and I'm not saying that on camera. Who do you think I am? I'm not crazy.

[13:18] Kate Rockwell: And were they like you have yeah, and you're like no. Mm-hmm hour 40 hour 40. That seems yeah illegal. It's probably a form of torture. That seems also, you know at that point this was so long ago like we weren't allowed to use our cell phones. We didn't have cell phone reception at the house. We weren't allowed to use any laptops or anything unless we were given permission by the PAs who were in charge of us. We couldn't leave the house. We couldn't leave the rehearsal studio. Our cell service didn't work in the rehearsals. They were actively isolating us so that we would buy into the world they were trying to create.

[13:52] Kate Rockwell: Your looks like being in and that's what reality shows do right? Any reality show you watch now, you're like everybody on here has been fed the Kool-Aid and that's how you get them to do these crazy things. I go now I guess it's like kind of on purpose. But there was a phase of reality shows where you could sort of watch the manipulation.

[14:04] Kate Rockwell: Yeah, but I think it's like very different. You're doing musical theater and you're auditioning and doing this thing. It's very different than like being a real housewife. Exactly, right?

[14:15] Kate Rockwell: Yeah, we're like an hour 40 in a room until you say this thing is crazy to me. It was it was wild. They controlled the food we ate and when we ate it they were emotionally manipulative. Did you get water? Like were you we were given water we were given water and we were given I can't think of the name of the protein bar cliff bars. We're giving cliff bars. I will never eat another cliff bar.

[14:43] Kate Rockwell: Donated like a sponsor of the program and so they were everywhere and it was the only thing we could eat like for hours at a time and it was so crazy. It was a crazy experience. It was absolutely a survival. How old were you? 23?

[14:56] Kate Rockwell: You're a baby. Yeah, and yes in this world like can can you imagine? Yeah, you did it like doing this thing to lead you to your dream and having being locked in a room for hour 40. I do think that it was like in a positive way a little formative because it was like oh, no one is gonna protect you but you right and so you have to get really comfortable saying no, you have to get really comfortable putting your foot down at whatever your personal boundaries are and that was a really good lesson to learn early because it has followed me for the rest of my career.

[15:29] Kate Rockwell: It's like nobody is gonna stand up for you if you don't stand up for you, right? And the only power we have as actors is the word no. So get comfortable using it because it's and it's it's hard to use it. I think especially as a woman. I was you know, I'm still of I'm a millennial female. I was still raised under the auspices of like be nice be good. Yeah, you know be friendly and I was raised in the Midwest and by WASP-y parents who like absolutely felt like that was helping me and so it's been very uncomfortable for me to learn how to say no, but I'm good at it now.

[16:02] Kate Rockwell: But also good for you at that young age saying no then yeah when like your career like you don't know what you feel when you're younger. It's like I have to do this because I need to be at this level and do XYZ. But the fact that you then were like I'm not doing that it's powerful.

[16:21] Kate Rockwell: Yeah, I think that's a good message. I do because it was sort of a parallel universe, you know, it wasn't a Broadway audition. It was a TV show that was a Broadway audition. Something about that gave me permission to say no freer than I probably would have if I had like gone into what I thought was a traditional audition process and been in the room doing things with the director and we weren't we weren't with them at all.

[16:44] Kate Rockwell: Yeah, we were you know with all these PAs and it just felt so separate.

[16:47] Kate Rockwell: So I think that allowed me to do it and allowed me to like practice that stretch that muscle a little bit in a way that I don't know if I would have been brave enough to do. Otherwise. Hey, well good for you and shout out to the show for you know, helping you catapult a little bit, you know.

[17:03] Kate Rockwell: Okay, I want to talk about Legally Blonde your Broadway debut. I love that show so much. Oh, I love that show. I was just saying we need a revival of it. We've been saying it for years. It was so underrated at the time because people were so grumpy that it was based on a movie. Isn't that funny now?

[17:21] Kate Rockwell: Yeah, isn't that like a really good joke really? Didn't get nominated for Best Musical. It did not get it. Which is crazy. Which is insane. Laura Bell got a nomination, which obviously was deserved. She was like so good. I mean that role is so hard and she was so great in it, but the show itself got nothing.

[17:39] Kate Rockwell: I saw that show so many times. I used to take the train from Connecticut in high school and I would rush it and saw it so many times. We had so many super fans at that show. Like I there was her name was Jackie. I can't remember her last name, but she was like a pediatric nurse and she was like very intelligent very like not like a kid super fan, but I was just like my job is hard and sometimes I need something at the end of the day to make me smile.

[18:05] Kate Rockwell: And so she would come in and see Legally Blonde and because I'm so obsessed with that and I was like, wow what a like incredible thing to know that your musical is doing for something, you know, like that was one of those a nurse children, yeah, and and if I remember right she was in like an oncology wing and so you're like your job is really hard and if Legally Blonde brings you joy, please I will pay for your ticket. Like please as many times.

[18:28] Kate Rockwell: Yeah, you need to that is so cool. Shout out to Jackie if you're listening. I know Broadway loves you girl. So you understudied Elle. I did. Do you remember what it was like going on for the first time?

[18:41] Kate Rockwell: It was so crazy. We had just had a cast turnover. We had just actually the reality show that Legally Blonde did. Bailey Hanks had come in and taken over the role when Laura Bell left. Was that show called Legally the Search for Elle Woods, right?

[18:54] Kate Rockwell: Yeah, but then all I think of is when In the Heights did like the spoof on YouTube Legally Brown. Yes, you know I'm talking about.

[19:02] Kate Rockwell: Yeah, good. Sorry to have ADD. Okay, so you did a cast changeover? Yeah, and we so like I had been in the show for about three months I think maybe two months at the time and I had been understudying but I was a second cover because there was another woman Becky Goldsvig was in the ensemble. She had been the first cover forever and she was getting ready to go on the tour and lead the tour.

[19:23] Kate Rockwell: Yeah, and so her cover had been replaced and Bailey had come in and all this stuff was happening and Bailey got sick and the other cover just had not had time yet to like really learn it. And so she got really sick she was out for six out of eight shows and I did all six shows which is so on you like that's so rare to be given that kind of an opportunity.

[19:46] Kate Rockwell: And I mean they I had to put in and everything like I was very prepared but nothing prepares you for what it is to do that. I was 23 years old.

[19:54] Kate Rockwell: I was just gonna say were you like feeling I won't put in and ready or were you like what the fuck? You're like, oh my god you guys is right, you know the best dresser in the world Laura Ellington she was the star dresser for that show and she I remember her saying like I'm gonna tell you what to do and as long as you do exactly what I tell you to do, you're gonna be fine because everything was a quick change. She was never offstage. She never sat down.

[20:20] Kate Rockwell: No mission. And so I like I had just never done anything like that before and so that's it. I have a distinct memory of going in the quick change in what you want into the like band costume.

[20:32] Kate Rockwell: Yeah, and being you know there's it's about the space of this table like upstage of a scrim and she's like put your arms out stand with your feet apart left foot up left foot down right foot up right foot down left foot left and I literally was just following directions and sure as shit. I made that change. I think about her all the time. I don't know if you're listening Laura shout out to you, but she is such she was such an incredible like helper for me.

[20:52] Kate Rockwell: She's the only reason I got through that because every time I came offstage she's like here what you do. Here's what you need. Here's what you're about to do. Like she was my whole support system in that and I did six shows. It was so fun. Wow, and it was like pre slime to tour there's no recording of it. I have almost no slime tutorial is we didn't nobody recorded anything back then there's like one really terrible grainy audio recording of me doing so much better and we need it.

[21:19] Kate Rockwell: Oh, it's bad.

[21:23] Kate Rockwell: Well, I was just dying, you know, like what's happening trash and but that's it there's like no proof of it anywhere. It's kind of devastating now.

[21:30] Kate Rockwell: These kids now have like every videos of everything and put ins and we don't have any of that. I mean my niece saw the entire production of Wicked on YouTube before I took her. The whole thing is on there filmed beautifully.

[21:38] Kate Rockwell: Yeah. Oh, I'm sure people. It's great. Yeah, it looks great. Wow, that's amazing.

[21:45] Kate Rockwell: So after that experience, were you like I have the but like this is definitely what I want?

[21:51] Kate Rockwell: I spent six months in the Broadway company and we closed the Broadway company and then I had oh gosh math I think like three months off and I did a regional theater thing in that time and then I was asked to come out on the tour of Legally Blonde because the girl who was playing Margo on the tour had broken her leg and in that three months in between those two Legally Blondes I actually had that that feeling of like now I know what it is, right? It's really really hard and it's not glamorous and it's not shiny and it's not like a dream. It's a reality and do I really want to do this?

[22:31] Kate Rockwell: Yeah, and because it's different, you know doing commercial theater or doing it all day every day in New York City on top of everything else is very different than doing regional theater where you get to go away live in a bubble, right? You do it for 12 weeks if you're lucky and then it's over, right? It's a totally different thing and I had just never had that experience.

[22:53] Kate Rockwell: And so I definitely had some like I don't want to say come to Jesus it wasn't that dramatic but I had so much searching to do about is this really what I want knowing what it is now, right, do I want to do that and then I went away on tour and my tour experience was so wonderful for so many reasons.

[23:08] Kate Rockwell: That's great. I usually almost half my our wedding party was from that production. We just had a really wonderful time. So I think that sort of validated some of that for me again and was like no, I really do want to do this.

[23:20] Kate Rockwell: Was he in Legally Blonde?

[23:25] Kate Rockwell: Oh my god captain. So when I came in as one of the first people from the Broadway companies there were several of us over the course of the tour, but it was the first one from the Broadway company to come in and Jerry Mitchell had reversed the entire show. So everything that we did on the left foot on Broadway we did on the right foot on tour.

[23:43] Kate Rockwell: Why? I don't know. I ask him that Jerry. Hey, if you're listening, why did you do that?

[23:51] Kate Rockwell: So I actually spent quite a bit of time with him because I had to relearn the entire thing there was nothing. And so we we just started spending a lot of time together and he was swing for the male ensemble and so he was available and I had just gotten a puppy so he was like helping me with my dog and I was like this guy is so nice and I just assumed he was gay.

[24:17] Kate Rockwell: You do that you you you know gay and straight proven straight, correct? Uh, and because they're all tickets tricky. It took me like four days to realize he was hitting on me 'cause you're thinking he's just like your gay friend. And then I realized that he liked me and I was like, oh he's cute. Okay, hang on and so that like that was the first week of tour for me. I know we shout out to your husband. This is we're almost at 20 years together. Oh my god. Congratulations. That's huge. That's amazing. It is it's wild. Anyways, I have a beautiful daughter. Do we have a little baby girl? She's not a baby anymore but she's just turning four in the fall and yeah, it's we're just and the dog and the you know, we don't have a picket fence. We live in an apartment.

[25:08] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Yeah, but that's it sounds so nice. So how do you let's talk about being a mom and performing. How have you been navigating that and juggling it? And why do you think it's important to be able to do both?

[25:17] Kate Rockwell: I have to confess that I was listening to the episode that you did and Harada talking about this exact thing exactly and her kid. And I mean, I think and Harada is one of the most spectacular comedians. She's one of the women that I look at and I'm like, what are you doing? I study her. I studied her and she make a do and I like I'm I'm always watching her 'cause she's so smart and so subtle talking. I'm like, are you being real or joking? I don't know if we're doing shtick right now because she's smart. Yes, thinking you can watch her brain like tick tick tick tick tick. Anyway, so I was listening to her talk about the agreement that she made with her husband when they decided to have a child and I was laughing because my husband and I had the same conversation really where I was like, I want to do this and I wanted to do it wasn't I wasn't being you know, it wasn't like my husband being like we should do this. It was like I wanted to have a kid and I'm not giving up my career. I've worked too hard. I have done I've built something that I love.

[26:18] Kate Rockwell: Yeah, and I am not willing to sacrifice it because I'm the woman because I'm the mom. That's right. And my husband was always very supportive of that. He continues to be to this day. Um, but I it was so important to me that I not be the de facto child care that I not be the only one who can do that that I not be that I be able to go to San Diego for two and a half months to develop a show because I believe in it and I love it and we have to figure that out and it was so important to me because and I'm sure I'll get flack for this. I have said for you long before I had a child I was like, I don't have a kid. I have I have Mean Girls and I have Bring It On the musical and I have because developing characters and building a musical even if you're not developing the character being in a long-running commercial show is very much akin to having a child.

It takes all of your energy. It is exhausting it takes a lot more than it gives sometimes which kids do that. It's all of those things right and it's and you're so proud of it and you're so passionate about it and you love it no matter what it does to you and what it does to your body what is your soul? And so I always felt like my career kind of was my child and then I had a child and I was right because now I have both.

[27:40] Kate Rockwell: Now you have two kids. I do say I do feel very much like I have two kids like I have my beautiful daughter and who is absolutely the best decision I've ever made to be vulnerable and have a kid and take that risk and I have my older kid my career. Yeah that I absolutely do not wish to abandon and I absolutely wish to continue to feed and encourage and pursue and they both take everything you have.

[28:10] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Yeah, so you yeah, it's it's a lot but I was really enjoying listening to and talk about that with and going to London when she had the baby. Like I have this baby. She's so funny the way she says I have this baby. But that is truly like what it's we Sylvie was my daughter's name is Sylvie. We she was six months a beautiful name and we went to La Jolla and lived in La Jolla for four months my husband my two our two dogs who are both gone now and my baby and me and like a tiny little one-bedroom apartment, you know, theater housing, you know to develop a play that was happening out there. Like we we just you kind of have to just your support system has to go with it.

[28:55] Kate Rockwell: Yeah, and that is the biggest thing is there's literally no way to do it right without a support. I don't know how anybody would do it without right, you know, I have my family. I have my my siblings live in New York. They're both also in the arts. Oh cool, and they are a huge part of our support system here. My mom comes in all the time. She lives in Maine but she'll like get in the car and drive her eight hours down and like come stay with Sylvie for we can't do it without that. Yeah, we've like ten babysitters. That's what we love they come in where it's like hi. I have a gig sorry, can you be here now? Like yeah come today.

[29:29] Kate Rockwell: It just that's what it takes to that's how to do both. That's so great, but you're never bored. Hey, and a lot of people in this world are so at least you have that right is true a lot of people are bored and I am NOT.

[29:38] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I do love talking to moms who are also performing or working and to hear these things. I am super single no children but I do think it's so important to to remind ourselves of these things that like they have another parent and it doesn't have to be the woman.

[30:04] Kate Rockwell: Yeah, and I I do think that like societally we're still way behind in that hundred percent and I think so like you get the pressure from the world that we live in to like be the perfect Instagram mom who like is was laughing with my sister about this last night like hand making paper rainbow paper chains I put like happy Thursday in your beautiful kitchen while cooking the food that you grew in the backyard and you know there's so much social pressure to be the perfect mom and to be the primary parent when you are the mom but also you have to work and also so like that's that's coming from one side and then our business does a terrible job of supporting it frankly and that's changing.

[30:43] Kate Rockwell: Yeah, there are there are people in positions of power who are really doing their best to try to make things better for working parents, particularly working moms but the business is terrible about it. We I lose jobs regularly because I have a child and they don't you know places don't want to house me and they don't want to oh they don't think I will want to go so they don't even ask and you hear about it later and you're like, why don't you just ask me like it's not up to you if I want to do it.

[31:09] Kate Rockwell: Isn't that the point that I get to so we have a look we have a we have systemic issues in our business that support being a working mother, you know an actor who's a working mom, but I'm sure a producer would say the same I'm sure a musician would say the same like our business does not support it.

[31:25] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: And you know, well, that's why we have to talk about it exactly that the things will change because they need to they do because they are and more and more people are being so vocal about it, right? I have people like me who are like, hi, I'm not doing this you can't I don't have to choose. I can't have both.

[31:41] Kate Rockwell: Yes, and we all we have to do is work together and we can make this happen for everybody working moms. I always thought I was productive before I was a parent. I'm a monster. I can run for I can do 18-hour days with non-stop as long as I have enough iced coffee, which I'm sitting here with right now. I can do anything like I am so productive I am so hard-working I am that's what working moms are.

[32:05] Kate Rockwell: Yeah your machines I can't even take care of myself and work and do this podcast. So I wonder you can I do are capable. Yeah, I do but I always like I'm like the best worker now I have like learned shit so fast and I like wanted all I can do is be president because I'm far too tired to think about anything else.

[32:19] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Yeah.

[32:24] Kate Rockwell: I'm a great a higher now. Yeah, for some reason people are so against hiring. I hate that. I hate that very silly that is really silly and you like get that told to you oh, we didn't give you the part because you're a mom. It has been told to me many times.

[32:38] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Yeah, can't we sue them?

[32:40] Kate Rockwell: If you can prove it, okay. You know everything is subjective, but can't we sue them?

[32:45] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Yeah.

[32:51] Kate Rockwell: We can but also that's not good. It's not gonna is more money.

[32:55] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Yeah.

[32:56] Kate Rockwell: Yeah, he has doing doing the what is that called? Litter litter. What's it called? You sue people? No, I did just the litigious work. I don't know what else is someone else's manifest. It's not mine. I can't sue them. I can't sue them.

[33:07] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Someone else's manifest, it's not mine. I can't sue people. I don't have the energy.

[33:13] Kate Rockwell: Yeah, it's too much. It's way too much. Again, thank you for sharing that.

[33:16] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Sharing that I think it's important especially to people listening who you know, maybe are working moms or want to become them. It's so inspiring. I want to talk to you about tic-tic-boom.

[33:21] Kate Rockwell: Yeah. Oh my gosh. I was like probably people don't really ask you about that.

[33:26] Kate Rockwell: They don't I think tic-tic-boom happened at such a crazy time and the first of all when we were filming it that was insane but when even when it came out everybody was just trying to figure out where we were in space and I kind of feel like it I know it had a very passionate following people loved the movie and it is a great movie if you haven't seen it. He linted such excellent work with the adaptation and how to sort of translate it to film but also make it about truly about Jonathan Larson.

[33:59] Kate Rockwell: I mean it was the set dressing alone was truly based off I mean they did so much research into his life to make sure that everything was but you know I do think it got missed a little bit and I feel I hope that it gets its time eventually because it is a really great musical and it is such a great adaptation to a movie so good. What was what was that experience like for you?

[34:21] Kate Rockwell: That was nuts. That was my first job my first true in-person employment after the pandemic filmed it in the fall of 2020 we were the first production back on set in New York City.

[34:35] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Oh, really?

[34:36] Kate Rockwell: Yes, and we were one of two things that was filming. They were also filming Dear Evan Hansen in Atlanta and we were filming and that those were like the two things that were happening.

[34:44] Kate Rockwell: So there was such a learning curve. I love to talk about tick tick boom when I say like watch that whenever you look at whatever you're watching on screen know that at our feet you won't see our feet very often because there are bags of PPE everywhere really everywhere under every chair behind every coat is a mask and a shield and gloves.

[35:06] Kate Rockwell: Oh because you had to go right in at because as soon as we would stop rolling everybody had to gear up because we were still so paranoid we didn't know we had to quarantine for two weeks before we started filming. They put us all up in a hotel in Brooklyn.

[35:18] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: We weren't allowed to leave the room like food was brought to us.

[35:24] Kate Rockwell: Why are you always getting trapped in rooms? I am my career is about being trapped in. But like I'm one of the girls who was in the movie like had the hotel bring a treadmill to her room so that she could run on the treadmill every day, which afterwards I was like, why didn't I do that? That's a great idea.

[35:36] Kate Rockwell: But like I literally would just like do puzzles like in the room by myself. I watched a lot of Law & Order.

[35:42] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Oh, thank you.

[35:45] Kate Rockwell: Oh my god, please hire me. Okay, Mariska her tape, please. Come on my podcast. Oh, she's so what she would do it. Yeah, we're so nice. We're close.

[35:54] Kate Rockwell: Anyway, but yeah, it was a it was a crazy. It was a crazy experience and then the first scene we filmed was the party scene. This is yes life but Boba that was the first scene we filmed and I had not been around that many people in seven months and so everybody it's like you don't know like we had all lost our social muscles, right?

[36:15] Kate Rockwell: So you're like not only am I thinking about my mark and don't sing because we weren't allowed to sing because you couldn't aspirate on set so it was like you had to lip-sync to the tracks that they had recorded and then

[36:26] Kate Rockwell: We did more tracks afterwards, like the audio of it was all crazy. So don't sing, hit your mark, but be alive and also be around all these people. And don't look terrified, because we were all just like, this like I didn't know where to put my hand. Right? Right. Our muscles were so weak, because we had been in isolation for so long. And so I look at that movie and I'm like, I can't believe they made such a good. It's so good. We were so crazy. I love that film. And it's great. It's really great. And I mean, Andrew is so great. Get out of here. We weren't allowed anywhere near any of them, of course, because they had to they were kept in such isolation, right? Because they had to do the entire shoot.

Yeah, I was on set for 10 days, I think. Yeah. I'm like, yeah, like, I know. Like, yeah, you were on for 10 days. I was on set less than I was in quarantine. I do know that so it wasn't quite two weeks. Oh, which is crazy, right? It's crazy. And then the day that we were, I just said released, like the day we were released, was the day that Biden was announced the victor of the election. And so I literally left my quarantine bubble and like, went out into the world to celebrate. Yeah, like, because, you know, we were hoping he won the election fairly. And we had hope fairly to be back in this place. But now we're in the future. Okay. I love that movie so much. I love the rehearsal process. And like into the reading.

It's like every musical theater kid's like, upset, like obsessed. It's so good. And Robin days is one of my closest friends. So I've watched that film so many times. Oh my god, he's so fantastic in it. His performance is so wonderful. The first time I went to a screen, I was hyperventilating. Yeah, bawling bawling. So emotional. Yeah. But I also just like your role like, um, what is this about? No, not a bad way. Whatever you say. I'm like, it's so good. So yeah, it's like that real thing where anytime you're in a show and you're like this. I don't think the show we're doing is good. Yeah. Like, how do you figure how do you get the answers you need? So good. What is it about? Yeah, like, we're trying to be nice, but you know, you're failing.

Yeah, no, I've, I've been that person. Congrats to you, like being a part of that. That's like, I think will be I think it is, but I think it will be like such a staple in like, theater. Yeah. For years to come. Yeah. Musical to film adaptation. Yeah. And it's a really good one. You're a part of that. Just like Kathy. In the last five years, you got it. I'm a part of that. Okay, we have to talk about Mean Girls, obviously. Obviously. So, um, I heard you say that you were like, ready to what's that? What's that reference you use? What's the girl who what the fuck is her name that broke the knee the ice skater? You were like, I'm ready. Oh my god. What's her name? No, Oksana by you all. The other one.

And Tonya Harding. There it is. Thank you. I was trying to think. No, I did. I like Tonya Harding somebody. I literally said that. So I want to know about the process and like how you ended up as Karen and was Karen always your? Yeah, I don't want you wanted. It is actually like a really good lesson in what this business is. I was in Mexico at my girlfriend's bachelorette party. And I got an email from a man named Eric, who I worked with very closely on Mean Girls, who is Tina's like, assistant producing partner at the time. And cold email out of nowhere that was just like, Hey, I work with Tina Fey. And we're doing a development of Mean Girls the musical. And we were wondering if you were available to come and do a one day table read with us to play the role of Karen at Casey Nicholaw's studio.

I'm on the beach like margarita and how many drinks was in three days. And I was like, like my whole self, I have a very distinct memory of like the cold wash over me of like, Oh my god, it's happening. What do I do? And so I changed my flight and I and then my plane got delayed. And I was sitting at the airport. And it was one of those delays where it was like, if we don't leave in 30 minutes, we're going to time out and I'm not going to make it back. And then we literally got off the ground like with like five minutes to spare. It was like 1230 at night. The reading was the next morning at 10am. And so like everything was like this, like going into it, but I made it and I sat at that table.

And with Tina Fey, with Tina Fey, who I actually fresh from Mexico. So sunburned as hell, like just a mess. And for sure, probably a little margarita. Yeah, I had four days of margarita. But it was it was a it was just one off. We didn't do any music. We were literally just reading the script. I can't even remember if there was a second act or if it was only the first act. So it was super fast. Yeah. And I think honestly, because it was so fast, I just like read the words on the like, you know, you don't do anything, you just read the words on the page. Because you've never seen them before. And you have had no time to think about it. And I mean, that movie is in my that movie is my blood. Yeah, I'm made of mean girls.

I'm, I'm a 40 something woman. And that movie came out when I was in college. And it is infused into my personal self. So I knew her well, but I really just did nothing. And that was the end of it. And then cut to I don't even remember how many months later, six months later, they were like, we're gonna do like developmental of it. There had been one other like quick thing that they had done, and I wasn't available. And I was like, I lost it. It's gone. Somebody else is going to do it. And then they had me come in. But they had me come in for when we were getting ready to do the lab, which we did before we did the out of town in DC, and then Broadway. So it was like step one of three really staging it.

They had me come in, we did everybody came in did formal auditions, but I auditioned for Regina. And I did final callbacks all the way to the end for Regina, Regina. And we did camp we did chemistry reads with the guys playing Aaron. And we did chemistry reads with plastics, always, always as Regina. And it came down to me and Taylor Louderman. And I knew Taylor, and I had done bring it on together. So we were like, we were very, you know, friendly, familiar. And it was like down to her and me. And this is coming from Tina. Tina was like, you know, I always just like, I kept going back to your read that day at the table read. And she's like, Taylor ran cold, and you ran warm. And we wanted Regina to be cold.

And we wanted Karen to be warm. So we went, great, we'll just do both. And so they the phone call came in, you didn't get Regina, but they want to know if you want to play Karen. And I was like, what? I didn't know that was an option. I'm obsessed. And so that's how I am. And all of that happened. The poor girls who were like called back for Karen. But again, that's like the funny thing about it, right? Is that you never know yours, it is meant to be yours has nothing to do with anything. Like, they, they saw me read one three hour chunk of Karen one time, and then never saw it again for like, like, that was the right answer. Yeah, that was the right answer for them. And that was the right answer for me.

And so when it's meant to be, it just is no matter what happens. Yeah. And all of that, all of that the table read that I got that then made all of the rest of it possible for me came because I knew now Benjamin from Legally Blonde. And I had done work for her and for she and Larry on shows that they had were developing in their studio and done demo work for them. And she was the one who said you know who you should have read Karen is Kay Rockwell. So it all came from a previous relationship. You know, like I owe her my whole everything that's happened with Mean Girls. Yeah, because of now, we talk about that a lot on this show about like, you never know what something will lead to. And you're just like existing doing the thing and then it will lead to something crazy.

Because from an outside perspective, Mean Girls was crazy. It was crazy. It was like it was crazy from the inside. Okay. It was like huge, huge, huge. Do you have a favorite memory from that time? You know, my favorite part of Mean Girl and I had a lot of favorite parts. I loved my time working on that show. I loved my time in that building. I loved the company of people that we had. You know, those women that I was with my so to answer the question, my favorite part of being there was our second floor. So we were the first flight up were the dressing rooms for all six principal women, two, two, and two. And I was never a part of a sorority as a kid. So I didn't have that kind of like sister experience.

Yeah. When I tell you we it was just like naked running around throwing clothes to each other, sharing shoes, stealing snacks, like it was a legitimate sorority. I love that. For the six women on that floor. And you know, our doors were always open. So people would come down from the other floors when they were not on stage. And we had the best social environment. And that was the first real time. Is this true? I think so. That I ever felt. Women supporting women. Yeah. Women supporting women. Where it was truly like, and we were all auditioning for the same stuff. We were filming each other's auditions and reading each other's lines. And then somebody would get it and you'd throw a big party, even though you didn't get it, but they did.

Like, that's all. It was so wonderfully supportive, encouraging, positive. And how much better does it make the whole experience? It was probably, and I imagine that at the end of my life, I will look back on those two years and be like, that was some of the best time of my life. And yes, the show wasn't, I loved doing the show. And yes, like being in a hit show is an incredible experience that so many people never get, because especially now, even having a hit show is almost impossible. But because I got that and that, and this incredible group of women that I was with all day, every day, I had all of that at the same time. I can't imagine it could get much better than that. It's like, check, check, check.

I want all of that again with my daughter now. That's what I want. I want to bring my daughter to that. Oh, cool. It's coming. It's coming. It sure is. It's called Regency Girls. And you wait, you come with me. We're going to make it happen. It's going to come. We're coming. Regency Girls. We always love to end the hits with girls. Yes. I know. All about girls. Regency Girls. All the odd girls. We love. It's my whole resume. What was it like working with Tina Fey? And were you like gagged at first and then you just ease into, okay, this is normal now? Or did it ever get normal? So Tina has always been one of my heroes. And when I met her that very brief day in the table read, it was the first time I'd ever met her.

And it was all so fast that I felt like, I was like, okay, you were a person. I'm not very good at fangirling. I don't have a lot of practice. And so I was really proud of myself for saying hello to her and shaking her hand or being just being a normal person in the room. So when I auditioned for her seven months later, I didn't do that. I did a really bad job with that. I like to tell this story as one of my worst auditions ever. So if the reader is like where the camera is, I delivered my entire audition to Tina Fey behind the table. I couldn't move my head. I could not take my eyes off of her. The reader's here. The reader's over there. And I'm saying words to the reader and I'm staring at her.

And in my head, I'm like, stop, stop what you're doing. You look crazy. What are you doing? And I couldn't do it. I was totally out of body because I was just so in awe and nervous. And like, I hope you like me. And like, I want to make her laugh, all of those things. Because my hero was sitting behind the table. And literally could cast me in her project. And I, and I blew the audition, which again is another, like, if it's meant to be, they see like she later. And she was like, I remember that. That was funny. I was like, that's so glad you thought that was funny. Cause I thought it was one of the most mortifying days of my life. Like you left there and you're like, this is never going to happen.

I do. I would, I blew it. I told my husband I blew it because I was such a weirdo in the room. I couldn't pull my shit together. That's so good. But then being in the room with her, I was like, she lived.

[51:06] Kate Rockwell: Always with an open ear and while she always made sure that everybody was heard and seen and respected and treated with, you know, such grace, she also was the first to see like, this is the line, this is what we're doing. Yeah, and I had such respect, I still have such respect for that, for the like empathy and awareness, but also the true girl boss of it all where it was like, I hear you and here's how we're gonna do it and we're gonna do it this way because it's my decision and this is the decision I'm making. And I was like, that's so fierce, like so fierce. So yeah, I had, I have only the most wonderful things to say about her and I know everybody who works with somebody of that caliber, like you have to say nice things about them in public on podcasts and things, but I really truly don't have anything other than the most glowing reviews. She seems like a girl's girl too.

[52:02] Kate Rockwell: Yeah, she's, and she's just chill. Like she's not a showy person in real life. Like she is like just down to like do the work and respect, you know, whatever the story is that we're trying to tell. And she just wants to do the thing. She's her family, she's a really cool kids and like her Jeff, who wrote the music, Richmond is her husband who wrote the music for Mean Girls. And so we got to know the whole family really well. So fun. It was a crazy experience. Yeah, hang out in Tina Fey's house. You're like, no big deal, like workshopping the new top of act two. We're like in their house and I'm like, this is great. It never got less cool.

[52:34] Kate Rockwell: Yeah, actually. Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome. It never lost, you never got jaded by that experience. No, never, not once. I love that. Well, congrats. Mean Girls and Karen was so iconic and such a monumental staple in Broadway history and that was you, girl, on the posters. She was a real gem to live in her, to live in her shoes, except for not her shoes because her shoes were torture, actual physical torture.

[52:57] Kate Rockwell: They looked like they probably were. It's totally my fault. I asked Greg Barnes to put me in sky-high heels because I can't walk in them. I am not good at high heels. So then it made me walk a certain way and posture a certain way and I wanted that for the character. I guess I just never imagined we would really do it for two full years, like two and a half years ultimately.

[53:18] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: And so you did it right until the pandemic or did you leave before that?

[53:22] Kate Rockwell: I left the Sunday before the shutdown was my last show. So I closed my Mean Girls experience on Sunday, Monday was a day off, they did a show Tuesday night and Wednesday morning and that was it. Man, the girl, I don't know whoever came to do Karen after, I'm sorry. I know I really, she really got the short end of the stick in so many ways. That was really, man, yeah, it was so crazy. Fuck the pandemic, man.

[53:45] Kate Rockwell: Fuck the pandemic. You just wrapped in Heathers.

[53:56] Kate Rockwell: I did, I did a couple, where, what month is it? Three months ago? I don't even know what month it is. Four months ago, the first time it came around, I auditioned for it and it was the very first project anyone ever told me I was too old for. And I auditioned for Heather Chandler and they were like, by the way, you said a few minutes ago, a woman in her 40s. I'm like, you though, not like you're in your 40s. Fuck those people. I'm 42, I just turned 42. I had my birthday last week.

[54:20] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Oh my God, happy birthday!

[54:24] Kate Rockwell: Thank you. I thought I was 43 for a solid three days actually, so it's all going fine. I'm definitely in my 40s because I don't know how old I am anymore. I keep saying I'm 33, but I'm about to be 36.

[54:30] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Yeah, but I do think you get stuck in an age.

[54:36] Kate Rockwell: Yeah, 33 was an age I got stuck in for a while where like I couldn't get out of it for whatever reason.

[54:41] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Or maybe I'm 34, not either. I mean, it happens to the best of us.

[54:46] Kate Rockwell: Thank you. It was like kind of like a victory and also a loss when that happened because I hadn't, I was like, I just want to get out of high school and want to get out of high school. And that was the first show that was like, you're too old for high school. And now cut to it, I'm doing it, but I'm the grown-up and like do I look too young to be it? Maybe, I'm not sure. It doesn't matter.

[55:04] Kate Rockwell: She's in her 40s in high school.

[55:10] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: They are, they are.

[55:13] Kate Rockwell: Then they look young. Yeah, it's only her like thing about how she has grown children. There's a line about having kids who are grown and I'm like, I don't know if anyone buys that, but I don't care. I don't care if they buy it. I had, it could have been a teenage mom, you don't know anything. The opportunities are endless. My, I call her fancy phlegm.

[55:20] Kate Rockwell: You don't know anything about fancy phlegm. Fancy phlegming, I love that. And actually it just came out today. I'm going back in for the last week.

[55:30] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Oh my God.

[55:30] Kate Rockwell: Because they just announced that Annalise Van Der Pol is going to play her for the next six weeks and she must have a conflict because she can't do the last week of Heathers. And so they're having me come back in. Here I come, which means I get to meet her too. I mean, I got to meet Lisa Ann when she was coming in.

[55:46] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Oh my God, amazing.

[55:46] Kate Rockwell: And you took over for Carrie Butler.

[55:51] Kate Rockwell: I took over for Carrie, which was so icons, icon, icon, icon as Carrie. And I did Mean Girls together, so that was great to get to like, and I mean, she's so nice. I love her so much. Why is she the nicest person I've literally ever spoken to?

[56:02] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Because she came on here.

[56:06] Kate Rockwell: Yeah, she came on here and I was like, I can't talk to you, you're so nice and I'm not that nice.

[56:10] Kate Rockwell: Wonderful, but it's cool because I felt like that was like the show that got away from me. Like I've gotten to do so many good high school shows and I love the score of Heathers. I think Larry O'Keefe is a genius. I will sing his score for anything, but I loved it and I was like, I lost that one, that's a bummer. And when they called, they were like, would you be interested in this? And I was like, I get to have it back.

[56:24] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: You're like my little box of musicals.

[56:30] Kate Rockwell: Well, congratulations. I feel like you just are like killing it one thing after the next in so many different ways.

[56:34] Kate Rockwell: So it's fun. I have made a career out of doing fun.

[56:40] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Hey, doing fun, isn't that what it's all about?

[56:46] Kate Rockwell: I have a lot of respect for the people who cry eight times a week. Tough. And I am very happy that I'm career out of laughter and high heels that are tough. Yeah, my feet are broken, but my heart's full. It was worth it.

[56:59] Kate Rockwell: My feet are broken, but it was worth it. This has been so much fun. Thank you so much for coming on.

[57:04] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Thanks for having me. If there's any odd woman listening who might be feeling like they're not getting the parts in school or they're not looking a certain way that they feel like they need to, to pursue a life as an artist or to pursue whatever they're pursuing, what is your advice to the odd woman?

[57:18] Kate Rockwell: I actually think Ann said it so beautifully when she was like, you want what's weird about me, right? Like what's weird about me is what you need. And that took me a long time to understand. Yes, like because I am the odd, because I am odd and because I don't fit, that makes me able to tell a story in a new way and that's interesting, right? Like we've already seen the other way, whatever the other way is, we've already seen it, we know it. So what makes you weird is what makes you interesting and people will see that. They do find you and they will, the people who are ready to encourage the weird in you will find you and they will support you. So keep on, keep it on, stick to it.

[58:02] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Yeah. And then I want to ask, why do you think female friendships are important after you just talked about like the second floor, all these girls uplifting you?

[58:08] Kate Rockwell: Wow, my, well, I'm gonna say two things. The first is because boys are dumb, dumb. I love boys, love boys, love them, me too, and they're so dumb. So that's my first reason. But you know, I think the female experience is so vast and I think when you don't have, and I have spent years of my life not having a network of female, of sisters, you know, of having a network of women who I felt like I could rely on, I think it can be incredibly isolating to not have that connection to another woman who is also participating in the female experience. Even if we're not doing the same version of the female experience, there are things that we just know. And to quote recent girls, a woman knows, like we literally just know stuff.

Like somewhere in here, I just know things and I know that you just know things and somehow that allows us to be empathetic to each other in a way that I don't know that men are able to have. And I have wonderful men in my life who I love, who support me, who encourage me, and it's not the same as having women in my life who do the same thing. So I, and I had to learn that as an adult. I really did not know what I was missing for many, many years.

[59:38] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Yes, and it's also like by doing this show, I've met so many amazing women who I've like watched and looked up to and like the connections I'm making with women by having these conversations is so cool.

[59:49] Kate Rockwell: Yeah, for lack of a better word, cool. The network, the network is, it's vast and it's, I was like sparkly spiderwebs.

[59:56] Kate Rockwell: Yeah, I liked it. Yeah, I liked it and it like went under the mic as well. The web is very sparkly. We love a sparkly.

[1:00:10] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Yeah. Well, thank you so much. This was so much fun.

[1:00:19] Kate Rockwell: Yeah, thank you. You're now a member of the Odd Squad.

[1:00:24] Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo: Hey Odd Squad, it's me again, Samantha Dawn Tuozzolo, your host of Odd Woman Out. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed listening as much as I enjoyed talking. Again, reminding you to please like, subscribe, and follow. Go follow us on Instagram and TikTok at Odd Woman Show and stay odd, babies. Love you.