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[0:00] Jayke Workman: Did I cry watching Kristen Chenoweth and Idina Menzel sing "For Good" and then kiss each other on the lips on the stage of Redwood on Broadway? I think we all know the answer to that. What is up everybody? My name is Jayke Workman and this is Oh My Pod U Guys, a musical theater and pop culture podcast. You guys, I feel like if you know me and you've listened to the pod enough, you know that I am an absolute stan, fan, slut for Trixie Mattel and Katya Zamylojakova. And this week they made appearances at both Cabaret at the Kit Kat Club to visit their dear friend Orville Peck, making his Broadway debut as the emcee. And they also attended a performance of Oh Mary starring Cole Eskola, who was another close friend of theirs.

And you guys, never in my life have I been more jealous of people in a Broadway show who get visited by celebrities. They are truly, Trixie and Katya, I think are the only two people who I genuinely was like, oh my God, everyone in those shows got to meet my two favorite people. Because even when Beyoncé visited Death Becomes Her, because Michelle Williams is in the show, she didn't hang around and take pics and everything with the cast. If Beyoncé came to my show, I would absolutely just fall over dead. However, Trixie and Katya are just my two, they're like my comfort people. And that sounds so stupid and dumb, but it's true. And I mean, I'm so glad that they were able to see both of their friends, Cole and Orville in the shows.

And I know too, it's a hefty ask because especially Katya, she is not the biggest fan of musical theater. She does love Kander and Ebb, and I do know too much about her, clearly. But yeah, so huge shout out to both of the companies of Cabaret at the Kit Kat Club and Oh Mary. I love both those shows, and I cannot wait to see Orville Peck as the MC. And I'm so, so immensely jealous of everyone who got to meet Trixie and Katya backstage. And you guys, with that, we have to dive into a quick little Broadway World recap brought to you by my amazing friends at BroadwayWorld.com. You guys, this week was a bit of a downer because we lost one of the sort of titans of musical theater composition, Mr. William Finn, Bill Finn.

He died at the age of, I believe, 73. And it's just crazy when anyone on that level passes away because while they are so revered, they are still so connected to the community. And I have friends who were dear friends with Bill Finn. And so even not having a personal connection to him, I've sung his music for so long and known his work, and now know people who were closely, closely connected to him. So it's just a crazy thing when anyone in our community passes away. But wishing his family and loved ones and friends huge condolences. He was such an inspiration. He won the Tony Award for Best Original Score for Falsettos. He wrote 25th Annual Putnam County Spelling Bee, A New Brain. I mean, his work was just so influential and so, so big, and he will certainly not be forgotten.

So rest in peace, Mr. Finn. And next, you guys, it really breaks my heart to report that Broadway World shared the news that the Off-Broadway smash hit musical Titanic is going to close. It is set to play its final performance on June 15th at the Daryl Roth Theater Off-Broadway. And you guys, I know it sounds crazy because no, I have never been in Titanic. However, I have some of my closest pals who have been in this show, who have associate-directed, associate-choreographed, who actually choreographed. I worked with Ty Blue, the director, on Foul Play, and he just won the Olivier Award with Marla and Constantine on The West End. And so it just, I don't know why, but I feel so connected to the show.

Maybe it's also because I've seen it 16 times and I'm obsessed. But I kind of can't believe that it is going to close. At the time of closing it, it will have run for three years and done over 1,200 performances. And I don't know. It just, this is a show that I feel so connected to because it's so celebratory of queerness and it was written by and for queer people. And it's also just so damn good. The talent that they have been able to bring into that theater and now theaters across the globe, they just opened a Paris company and a London company and a Chicago company. So I am so glad that the legacy of the show gets to live on, but it is really, really sad to say au revoir to truly the ship of dreams, the Daryl Roth.

I have come to adore everyone who worked on that show. And I've had so, so many guests on the pod who have been part of Titanic. So wishing just a huge, huge congratulations to Marla and Constantine and Ty and everyone, Billy and Luke and everyone who I know who has had a hand, not only in the acting of it all, but in the creation of it, because it's truly one of my favorite shows ever. And you guys, this has been the Broadway World Recap. Oh, my pod, you guys. This has been a long time coming. We're getting into it on the pod today, ladies. My next guest is a pal of mine, truly one of my favorite people who makes me giggle, gaggle so hard. And they have currently just made their Broadway debut in The Book of Mormon, the ensemble, and covering the lead, Miss Elder Price.

It's Thomas Doelger. Hi. Oh, my God. I have wanted to do this for so long. Oh, I've wanted to be successful enough to get to be a guest on this for so long. So this is it. They sent that Broadway contract. I said, jeez. Okay. Well, we have so much to talk about, but we of course cannot not talk about The Book of Mormon slash how quickly this all happened. I don't think I clocked how quickly or how long you had been auditioning for the show over a course of years. And I always forget about it, which is so stupid. But because it's one of those shows that's been running for so long, I forget that it's even an option. I've never even seen it in New York. I've only seen it on tour.

[8:06] Thomas Doelger: Oh, Mary, you got to come and be on the show.

[8:10] Jayke Workman: I know. Well, and I need to come and see you as fucking Elder Price.

[8:14] Thomas Doelger: Yeah, you missed it this weekend. No worries. The doll's booked and busy. No problem.

[8:16] Thomas Doelger: Poor.

[8:17] Jayke Workman: Yeah, T. Poor.

[8:18] Jayke Workman: No, the doll's poor.

[8:18] Thomas Doelger: No, listen, I get it.

[8:18] Jayke Workman: But okay. So when were you first in for the show and how long was your journey with it before they finally made the correct decision to hire you?

[8:29] Thomas Doelger: Well, thank you. And thank you for having me. I will say my first callback, I had been going to EPA sort of throughout college, just whenever I was in the city and there was an EPA to go to. My first callback for the production was in 2018, which was, I went in eight times over the course of six years.

[8:49] Jayke Workman: Good God.

[8:50] Thomas Doelger: Yes. And.

[8:52] Jayke Workman: She wanted that job.

[8:53] Thomas Doelger: I really did. I was like, come on, people. But it's funny. So I kept going in, kept going in, kept not getting it. And I was just so confused. And it is one of those shows where like, you know, the government jobs on Broadway never closes. No one ever leaves. Most of the company has been there at least five, six years. Some have been there since the show opened.

[9:10] Jayke Workman: Yeah.

[9:12] Thomas Doelger: Fourteen years ago.

[9:12] Jayke Workman: Yeah.

[9:12] Thomas Doelger: Literally. So I had sort of written it off and I had sort of been like, you know what, like maybe this is just a dream I've outgrown. I don't really know if this like artistically fits who I am anymore. The second I say that, ring, ring, they want you to come back in.

[9:24] Jayke Workman: Work.

[9:24] Thomas Doelger: And I literally was like, no, they're going to play in my face again. And I am not strong enough for that. And I'm just, you know what? Save it. Yeah. My agent was like, just go in one last time. And unbeknownst to me, it was a weak turnaround. So my first, the first new appointment this round was on a Tuesday and I started rehearsals the following Tuesday.

[9:46] Jayke Workman: Oh my God.

[9:48] Thomas Doelger: So it all happened over the course of a week. So I went in Tuesday and then I went in again on Friday and I had the offer by Saturday. And then I walked into the Owl's Till and I said, this is my one day notice. This is my last shift. I can never come back.

[9:59] Jayke Workman: Oh my God. Which is my favorite bar by the way.

[10:01] Thomas Doelger: Oh my God. Shout out to the Owl's Till in the Upper West. It's the best.

[10:04] Jayke Workman: Yes. But part of what made it the best was you.

[10:07] Thomas Doelger: No, it's still the best. I go back so, so frequently and the vibes are still excellent.

[10:12] Jayke Workman: That is crazy. I mean, I certainly connect to the element of just like being thrown in. Like I got the call the morning of.

[10:21] Thomas Doelger: Yes. Because you had done it on tour, right?

[10:25] Jayke Workman: I did it on tour. And it's the same exact show. So I wasn't scared about that, but it was like, there were like whispers in the Willems of like, what, like people were messaging me being like, hey, have you heard anything? And I'm like, no, what do you mean? Like I hadn't, didn't audition. There was no like warning really. And then that morning they called, my agent called and was like, hey, they need an immediate standby. Are you in the city? Can you be there at 6 PM? So it's like.

[10:51] Thomas Doelger: Is madness.

[10:52] Jayke Workman: That level. But, but it's the same.

[10:53] Thomas Doelger: Did you have like a fitting or like a wig fitting?

[10:55] Jayke Workman: Girl, no.

[10:56] Thomas Doelger: No, of course not. What was I thinking?

[10:58] Jayke Workman: No, because we have to talk about how jank Broadway truly is. But, but of course.

[11:04] Thomas Doelger: I love my job.

[11:05] Jayke Workman: No, of course. The dream is the dream forever. Like anytime I set foot in that theater, I'm who the fuck is calling me? Mom.

[11:12] Thomas Doelger: Mom.

[11:13] Jayke Workman: Do you hear that? You just ruined the episode, Jennifer.

[11:16] Thomas Doelger: No, Jennifer, we love you.

[11:18] Jayke Workman: But I, um, yeah, I mean the, the, the dream truly never dies.

[11:23] Thomas Doelger: Of course.

[11:23] Jayke Workman: The magic is wild. And I think that's why people stay in these long running shows.

[11:28] Thomas Doelger: A hundred percent.

[11:29] Jayke Workman: Because like there is that level of comfortability and security in it, but also you get the little sparkles in your tummy of like.

[11:37] Thomas Doelger: Yeah.

[11:37] Jayke Workman: I'm on Broadway.

[11:38] Thomas Doelger: And we've, and we've talked about this off the pod, but our building specifically, like there is not one bad egg in any department. Like it is like the nicest building of people.

[11:48] Thomas Doelger: Yes.

[11:48] Jayke Workman: And so even when like you come to work and you're like not necessarily in the mood to do the show or you've had a bad day or whatever, like you're surrounded by like all of your friends.

[11:56] Thomas Doelger: Right.

[11:57] Jayke Workman: It is very much giving like camp vibes, which is so nice. But I, one thing I will also say about the longer running shows in the age of like expensive high tech and LED screens in every musical, there are several moments where I look around on stage at The Book of Mormon and I'm like, this really is it, huh? This is community theater.

[12:14] Thomas Doelger: And this has worked for 14 years.

[12:17] Jayke Workman: Yes. And then I, but then I like step out into the house. Like I was collecting for Broadway Cares and I like watched the end of the speech and I was like, Oh my God, this looks amazing.

[12:24] Thomas Doelger: Yeah.

[12:24] Jayke Workman: But on stage, I'm like, this really is it, huh?

[12:27] Thomas Doelger: Oh, a hundred percent.

[12:28] Jayke Workman: I know. Anytime I've gone backstage at Wicked, I'm always like, what?

[12:32] Thomas Doelger: I know.

[12:33] Jayke Workman: This is it.

[12:34] Thomas Doelger: Yeah.

[12:35] Jayke Workman: Because like you said, from the audience, it looks incredible.

[12:38] Thomas Doelger: Spectacular.

[12:39] Jayke Workman: Huge. And then you go on stage and you're like, that's how small that is. That's the back of that set piece. You're like.

[12:45] Thomas Doelger: That rake is criminal.

[12:46] Jayke Workman: This is wood and beams.

[12:48] Thomas Doelger: Yeah.

[12:49] Jayke Workman: With like gold paint.

[12:49] Thomas Doelger: But that's Broadway, baby.

[12:50] Jayke Workman: That's Broadway.

[12:57] Thomas Doelger: It's spectacular, for lack of a better word, but then it's so expensive to upkeep that like that often tanks the show. I don't think it's by accident that a lot of the long-running shows, the government jobs so to speak, are like early aughts low-tech shows. Girl, Chicago is a bandstand. Or like Hamilton, it's like one set of risers and a turntable. That's it. Yes, and it works. It works. Okay, so going back to when you first got thrown in, you rehearsed for two weeks?

[13:30] Jayke Workman: I had two weeks. Yes, I had a week and two days for my ensemble track, and then I did three shows, and then they swung me out for the rest of the weekend to start learning Elder Price, and then I had like four days to learn Elder Price, then I was back in the show.

[13:44] Thomas Doelger: Wild. Yeah, so in auditions you knew you were going to cover Price.

[13:49] Jayke Workman: Yes, that was the track they were looking for, which is funny because the last time I went in a few years prior, they were like, we really think Thomas is more of a McKinley, and I'm like, call me a fag too much. But I was like, okay, period. I guess that's dreams. I know, seriously. I was like, okay, I guess that's the end of this. So then when the appointment came in, that's another reason why I was like, are you kidding me? Yeah, like seriously. Come on. But you know, it all worked out. Thank goodness. So grateful for the record. I mean, what a wild, I feel like just, and maybe I've spoken like ad nauseum about it on the pod, but like making your Broadway debut, it just, it feels like something that you have dreamed of for so long.

[14:24] Thomas Doelger: Yeah, it's magic. So to do it, not only with a company who celebrated you so beautifully, like when you first bow and everything, that is wonderful. I literally live for the videos and photos of you just crying. But also then finding out that you're going on as Elder Price for the first time. Oh my God. Like what? That's insane.

[14:46] Jayke Workman: Yeah. It's crazy. And it was crazy for me. It was crazy for everyone. Cause like this was the show since, and this was the role since I was like 15. Everyone's like, oh, well that's what you'll do. And then like all these years later, they're like, oh my God. Well, she's really doing it. She's a really, she's really up there. Yeah. It was, it was crazy. And I remember it was so magical and so much fun. And Cody Strand, who's our Cunningham is just such a fucking pro and like, it was so much fun, but also was so helpful in being like, oh my God, you're going to want to take a small step down the stage. I was like, oh, thank you. Love that. But that show specifically, cause the, the track starts where like the set disappears, the screen flies out your center stage in a spotlight and then you walk downstage and you never leave.

So for the first like 10 minutes, I just sort of looked around and I was like, what planet am I on? And why is everyone dressed like me? I was like, what am I doing here? And when, cause there's just no time to really like stop and think until act one is over.

[15:52] Thomas Doelger: Yes. Which is so crazy. It's still to this day, like having a few reps in is still like, oh my God, here we go, you're playing Elphaba. Yeah. Yes. And no, it used to bother me so much when people would call it like, like the male Elphaba. I was like, okay, it's not that hard. And then I did it and I was like, and you're like, where's my green bodysuit. I need, where's my green bodysuit. No, it is. Yeah. It's just, it's just a lot of stage time and a lot of running around.

[16:20] Jayke Workman: Yes. But what I am so like in admiration of is that you are just such a lovely angel human.

[16:28] Thomas Doelger: Well, thank you. And it's not always the case that the best and brightest humans souls get to be put in those positions. So it's really amazing that like, it's just such a long time coming. And I feel like I've known you for so long now and I have, we've talked about it forever of like, when is it your turn? And now it is. It's crazy. And it's also like, it's so interesting. I don't know if you felt this way when people are like, oh, there's no one more deserving. I'm like, what does that mean? Because like, thank you. Yes. I worked very hard. Yes. I sort of like paid my dues and kept my head down and worked, but like, it's a business that is just like not a meritocracy in any way. So whenever people would start like, oh my God, there's no one more deserving than you.

I'm like, well, that, what literally, what does that mean? Like, we're all out here just like doing our best and so much of it is timing and so much of it is luck and like, oh, it's all timing literally. And so I think it was hard for me to wrap my head around once it happened, like the duality of feeling like so grateful and embracing it all, but also being like, oh, I was just one of the people that just got very lucky.

[17:33] Jayke Workman: Yeah. You know, everyone was like, you deserve it, babe. And I'm like, well, I don't know. I don't know about that, but thank you. Well, I think maybe it's less even of like thinking of it as like, I deserve it more than someone else versus just like, I do deserve this. I've put in the time and the work and now you get to do it, which is just amazing.

[17:53] Thomas Doelger: It is amazing. And okay. So, so switching gears a little bit. Yes. And I don't know if you, you know, care to immortalize this on your, on the pod, but you do have a very handsome Broadway boyfriend, which is so amazing. And I live for like the lore of like you guys going to Midtown together to like go to your separate theaters. It's really sweet.

[18:18] Jayke Workman: That's crazy. Especially because like when we started dating, he booked Wicked on Broadway very shortly after. So then there was three years of him just like living his dream and me being so miserable.

[18:33] Thomas Doelger: Okay. I need to know the tea. I need to know the truth.

[18:38] Jayke Workman: It was just like, and Hunter and I, that's my boyfriend's name. We, for those of you that don't know, hi Hunter. We do very different things. So he like, he like grew up at a ballet bar and I grew up in like acting classes and voice lessons. So like, he's very much like a capital D dancer. And I'm very much like a true song and dance man, if you will. So it's really like hard to compare what we do, but it was just so hard, like being the plus one to every Broadway thing. And just being surrounded by all my like friends who like are booking and are successful and are happy. And I was just like, oh my God, this is torture. This is torture. When I can't, I can't get an email back from anybody. I'm like, pick up the phone people.

So when I think it was like just as special for him as it was for me when I finally booked it and he was like, oh my God, well this was, this was always like our dream. And our dreams are one block away from each other. So even like last night, because Wicked is so beautiful, but so long and Book of Mormon is very tight. 220 with the intermesh, swear to God.

[19:34] Thomas Doelger: That's cute. I, when he's on, cause he's a vacation swing, I like just like grab like a little snack from like CVS and like just wait for him by the stage door. And I had a moment yesterday as like people were waiting and I was waiting for him to come out. And I was like, this is the life we like always dreamed of having together. And it's, it's very special.

[19:49] Jayke Workman: That is so cool. But it is again, the, the realities of dating, I mean, Jesus.

[19:55] Thomas Doelger: Period.

[19:56] Jayke Workman: As a gay person in this stupid town, horrible, horrible show. Horror, horrible.

[20:04] Thomas Doelger: It's just American horror story.

[20:06] Jayke Workman: But then you add that layer of being someone who is very similar to who you're dating.

[20:15] Thomas Doelger: Yeah.

[20:16] Jayke Workman: And you're, you are potentially going in for the same things.

[20:19] Thomas Doelger: Yes. We did actually do famously when we had just started dating, we did a tape for Mormon together and he knew nothing about the show. And I was like, I got you girl. No problem.

[20:27] Jayke Workman: Yes.

[20:27] Thomas Doelger: We like did like the tap convo. I sort of tried to like coach him through like the 10 or one audition cut, which is very, very high and hard. And then we got to the point where we had to do like the scene work. And he goes, does every member of the ensemble like have little lines and do little bits? And he goes, I go, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he goes, oh, no, I don't want to do this. Steps away, emails his agent, pass.

[20:48] Jayke Workman: Love.

[20:49] Thomas Doelger: I was like, oh my God. Okay. Well read for me, honey. Cause I need, I really need this. I need the job.

[20:54] Jayke Workman: Yeah. It's tricky. And it's, it's, it is also such a testament to like, there's just not really like, like a petty or competitive bone in his body.

[21:02] Thomas Doelger: Sure.

[21:03] Jayke Workman: Which is very helpful. And also he just like, I don't know. He just, he just handled every like career tantrum of mine with like such grace and such patience and such like, you can do whatever you want to make you happy, but you are just a person that is just going to have to wait your turn.

[21:18] Thomas Doelger: Yeah. And I was like, I don't want to remain here.

[21:21] Jayke Workman: I don't want to.

[21:21] Thomas Doelger: I've been waiting, honey.

[21:23] Jayke Workman: I did my waiting 12 years of it in Azkaban.

[21:26] Thomas Doelger: Literally in Azkaban.

[21:30] Jayke Workman: I forgot you're a Harry Potter diva. I love that about you.

[21:33] Thomas Doelger: Oh my God. Of course.

[21:34] Jayke Workman: You don't have a Harry Potter tattoo, do you? All the girls are getting them removed.

[21:36] Thomas Doelger: I'm not that girl.

[21:42] Jayke Workman: When the girls take it up, I get upset. I'll say it.

[21:44] Thomas Doelger: I’ll say it again.

[21:45] Jayke Workman: Sit in the basement.

[21:46] Thomas Doelger: Get down there.

[21:48] Jayke Workman: Why are you down there?

[21:49] Thomas Doelger: Are we taking it to the storytelling?

[21:51] Jayke Workman: Thank you.

[21:53] Thomas Doelger: You would not pop it up.

[21:53] Jayke Workman: Cause that's where Glinda sings.

[21:54] Thomas Doelger: And you are not that girl.

[21:55] Jayke Workman: So you're going to take it.

[21:56] Thomas Doelger: What?

[21:56] Jayke Workman: Down.

[21:58] Thomas Doelger: You are not that girl.

[21:59] Jayke Workman: You literally just said it.

[22:02] Thomas Doelger: I love Wicked so much.

[22:02] Jayke Workman: I know.

[22:02] Thomas Doelger: Let's take a break.

[22:09] Jayke Workman: And we're back.

[22:09] Thomas Doelger: Okay.

[22:10] Jayke Workman: No, we're not done talking about Wicked.

[22:11] Thomas Doelger: We're talking about Wicked.

[22:12] Jayke Workman: Your No One Mourns the Wicked is my favorite that I have ever heard.

[22:15] Thomas Doelger: Absolutely shut it.

[22:16] Jayke Workman: No, no, no, no, no.

[22:17] Thomas Doelger: That is.

[22:18] Jayke Workman: Megan, kick rock.

[22:19] Thomas Doelger: Annalie, chew glass.

[22:21] Jayke Workman: Mackenzie Kurtz, love your work.

[22:23] Thomas Doelger: Take a seat.

[22:24] Jayke Workman: It's my favorite.

[22:25] Thomas Doelger: Oh, that is very kind.

[22:27] Jayke Workman: You posted that and I ran around to every dressing room in the O'Neal. And I was like, has everyone seen this?

[22:32] Thomas Doelger: And they're like, who is that bald homosexual?

[22:35] Jayke Workman: Yeah, literally.

[22:37] Thomas Doelger: I know. I sent it to Dan, um, Dan Michigay, who I had on the pod.

[22:40] Jayke Workman: Adore him.

[22:41] Thomas Doelger: Me too. Um, his sassy self and his gorgeous, sweet baby Sebastian.

[22:45] Jayke Workman: I know, all the gays having babies.

[22:47] Thomas Doelger: We don't need to talk about that. But Wicked, it's the end all be all.

[22:52] Jayke Workman: I talk about it basically to every guest on this show at this point.

[22:55] Thomas Doelger: Yeah.

[22:55] Jayke Workman: Because so many people I've had on the pod either have been in the show or have like a personal connection.

[23:01] Thomas Doelger: Yes.

[23:02] Jayke Workman: So it feels like the most accessible and yet the most impenetrable bubble.

[23:09] Thomas Doelger: It's crazy. Emphasis on bubble.

[23:12] Jayke Workman: Well, it formed all of us because we all saw it when we were like eight, nine, ten. Like I like fell in love with theater, I think, because I saw Wicked at the Bushnell, which is crazy because Bushnell.

[23:22] Thomas Doelger: I know.

[23:23] Jayke Workman: Because Derek Williams, who is the general.

[23:25] Thomas Doelger: Ah, it was Fiyero!

[23:26] Jayke Workman: It was Fiyero.

[23:27] Thomas Doelger: Oh my God.

[23:27] Jayke Workman: I saw him when I was nine. And now you are in a show with him.

[23:30] Thomas Doelger: And I'll do you one better. When I saw Mormon for the first time, I saw Cody Strand as Cunningham, who is still Cunningham.

[23:35] Jayke Workman: Cunningham.

[23:36] Thomas Doelger: So we did it together.

[23:37] Jayke Workman: Wow.

[23:38] Thomas Doelger: Yeah.

[23:39] Jayke Workman: Yeah, that's wild. I remember Derek was my first Fiyero in the resident company in Chicago.

[23:44] Thomas Doelger: And he was sexy.

[23:45] Jayke Workman: Sexy and he still is.

[23:46] Thomas Doelger: My coworker, I love you.

[23:49] Jayke Workman: Hey, Derek. You can come on the pod.

[23:51] Thomas Doelger: I love Derek. Derek and I, I think you can keep this in. Derek is one of those people where like you'll like pass him and he'll just sort of give you like a little like tap on the butt.

[24:00] Jayke Workman: Yeah.

[24:00] Thomas Doelger: But in like a very like straight dad kind of way.

[24:02] Jayke Workman: Yeah.

[24:03] Thomas Doelger: And so all the gays were sitting around talking about it. One of my friends in the cast was like, oh, Derek's so sweet. He always gives me like a little like tap on the belly. And then we were like, oh yeah, he always like hits us on the ass when he walks by. And my friend goes, oh, why am I getting the belly though? And then the next day Derek walked by me and like tapped me on the stomach. And I was like, no, no, no, no.

[24:21] Jayke Workman: You've been demoted.

[24:22] Thomas Doelger: No, no, no. Falling into the sunken place. I was like, Derek, please touch my ass.

[24:28] Jayke Workman: Title of episode, please touch my ass.

[24:32] Thomas Doelger: Oh my God. That's so funny.

[24:33] Jayke Workman: Yeah. I love it so much. It's just, but it is, I've talked to so many people who've just been through like the audition. It is truly impenetrable.

[24:41] Thomas Doelger: Yes. Well, and okay. So I just had my darling diva angel, Michaela Renfro on the pod, who was Nessa.

[24:48] Jayke Workman: I saw her, swear to God.

[24:50] Thomas Doelger: Yes. And you had Jen Newberry on the pod.

[24:51] Jayke Workman: I did.

[24:52] Thomas Doelger: One of my fave Glindys.

[24:53] Jayke Workman: Absolutely. But yeah, she was one who just went in and booked it. She wasn't one of the girlies who like got put in the file and then like waited and waited. Sometimes it goes that way. It's crazy.

[25:04] Thomas Doelger: It's rare though. I want to be in that show so bad.

[25:06] Jayke Workman: And you want to know something? The only fucking track I've ever been seen for?

[25:10] Thomas Doelger: Glinda.

[25:11] Jayke Workman: Dr. Dillamond.

[25:12] Thomas Doelger: I also taped for Dr. Dillamond.

[25:14] Jayke Workman: And I would do it in a fucking second.

[25:15] Thomas Doelger: A hundred percent. But my God.

[25:17] Jayke Workman: Best tape I've ever made also.

[25:19] Thomas Doelger: The only track I could do is a goat.

[25:23] Jayke Workman: Thank you.

[25:24] Thomas Doelger: Thank you so much. I'll see myself out.

[25:26] Jayke Workman: I'm like, you can't have me do the ten or one.

[25:28] Thomas Doelger: No, come on.

[25:29] Jayke Workman: Ensemble. Put the diva in a mob coat.

[25:31] Thomas Doelger: Literally. Give me the pitchfork.

[25:34] Jayke Workman: Give me that terrible little cheap torch.

[25:37] Thomas Doelger: Still again, the early aught design. Look at the red cloth with the light bulb. I'm like, work, work, diva. They got bitches flying and they got red cloth fire. And I celebrate that. No, my tape for Dr. Dillamond. I did it. The tape came my way because it was to cover. It was for the tour to swing.

[25:54] Thomas Doelger: But it was to cover Dr. Dillamond, The Wizard, and the Aussie Unofficial, slash the dad. And I was like, this is a joke. I am not entering my goat era. I'm not but 26 years of age. And my agent was like, just do it. And I sent the tape as a joke to my boys teacher and he was like, this is the best tape you have ever seen. You're like, it's because I care. Downton Abbey? Oh, yeah. No, and I watched it back a few weeks ago like for a laugh and I was like, no, I would have eaten. You should have given that to me. Chomped. Chomp. Chomp. That over there? Chomp. Chomp. You finished with that? Chomp. That, yeah, I did that tape and I remember I think it was literally the exact same track because I had to do that dance, the dance portion.

And then I remember doing the scene and I was like, I'm too young and gay and bald. Like, what do you mean? It was just weird. But me being like, who is responsible for this? I'm waiting for an answer. But I'll do it. But I'll do it. You heard it here first.

[27:01] Jayke Workman: Okay, so I would love to talk about your academic journey.

[27:07] Thomas Doelger: Go on. I barely know how to read, but hop off. Because as a Merit Scholar, you have a lot to offer. I just, you have a specific journey with Collegiate Theatre. Yes. And a crazy one. Yeah, and I want to talk about it because there are many, imagine, I'm like, there are many people who listen to this podcast. There are though, I bet. No, but I mean like, of the people who have messaged me and been like, I'm in college and I'm listening to the pod. I want to be as transparent. Shivers down my spine. Yes, because while I got so lucky, I had an amazing experience. There were, of course, things that I would have changed. Of course. Like there are in every program. But the sort of like importance that we have come to put on like where we go to school and what it means versus like you actually being a good performer and actor and getting jobs.

Yeah. Like would you talk about your like road through Collegiate Theatre? Yes. Yes. Yes. So I sort of similar to Elder Price, like leading up to the college audition process, everything had gone my way. Like even like being gay, I was popular. I was dating. Like, yeah, I, I, everything had gone according. Well, you're funny and hot. Well, thank you very much. And your words, not mine, but I will accept that. And I, not back then though, honey, I was, I was toe looking. Oh, string bean, toe looking, motherfucker. Oh, I look back at photos of me from high school and I'm like, holy hell, someone get that kid a haircut. I, I went into, I was so, I had such a death grip on the path I was insistent my life go on, which meant I had to go to Carnegie Mellon or Michigan.

Right. So I auditioned for, I think, 10 BFA programs, got into zero. And literally me and my entire town were like, what's going on? Get the pitchforks, get the pitchfork, get the Terry cloth porches. And I was just so confused and my ego was so bruised. So I ended up, I went to Emerson. I started in their BA program, which then became a BFA program. Who cares? But I, I went, I left for Boston saying, I will be here for a year. I am too good to be here. And then I will transfer to a better program. Diva. Before I even set foot on the campus, which is a terrible thing to do because then you're not allowing life to happen.

[29:20] Thomas Doelger: So what happened was I had an amazing first year in Boston. I had amazing friends. I loved living in that city. I loved living on my own in a city and like growing and changing into the person I wanted to be without all the eyes of all the people I grew up with and like, Oh yeah. I just, and I was learning a ton and I was a super good fit for that program. And I just had such a death grip on, well, I'm not supposed to be here. I'm supposed to be at a top BFA program. So I'm going to go. Did the Common App again. Did audition season again. Got into Penn State's musical theater program. And I was like, great. Top school. Done. Easy. Don't even need to think about the decision. I'm going. There were a couple things at play that led to me eventually leaving Penn State and going back to Emerson.

A main one was I did sort of get there and I had gotten what I wanted and I was in the place I thought I was supposed to be in and I was like, okay, but what about that person I just worked on becoming for the past year? What about her? Because now I'm stuck in the middle of nowhere, Pennsylvania, and I'm just like, this is not, I don't think where I actually want to be. I was having way more fun and feeling much more like myself back at my other program. So it was a real like, it was a lot of mental gymnastics of like fighting like where I thought I needed to be versus like where I just, just like letting life sort of take me where it was going to. There was also some issues with like what class I was supposed to be in.

Like I sort of lacked community at Penn State because I was like half with the freshmen, half with the sophomores, and also like being with musical theater freshmen after you've already been with musical theater freshmen for a year. Oh my god, absolutely. Prison time. Prison time.

[31:08] Thomas Doelger: So that was tricky. I had like a relationship back in Boston that was super, super not healthy and sort of like wrecking havoc on my brain, but I was sort of convinced I needed to go back to Boston also to be with him, which obviously I went back to Boston and I wasn't because he was not a good match for me. But there were just a lot of things at play that led to me, which like for a long time I thought was like really just irrational and crazy of me, but I honestly think was kind of brave for me to be like, hey, I think I've made a mistake and this program is amazing and I love all of you and I love all of my friends. Some of my friends from Penn State are still my closest friends to this day, but I'm like, but I think I actually need to go back.

And they're like, to your worst program. And I was like, yeah, I think that is where I'm supposed to be for the next couple of years. And then went back to Emerson, was not the star of the program by any means, but sort of like kept my head down and developed my work ethic there. I think because for the first time I wasn't like the star of the group. I was like, great, well, I'm just going to keep my head, like all these kids that are getting leads in all the musicals like aren't doing their homework and aren't practicing. I'm going to rent a studio for a few hours and like dance and like make sure like my technique is better the next time I get into class. Like that is really where I think my like work ethic developed. What a concept.

[32:17] Jayke Workman: What a concept, I know, which I'm very, very grateful for. But yeah, I had a really like backwards college experience. And for so long when I wasn't booking, the little voice in my head that was like, well, maybe if you stayed at Penn State, things would be different. Which like still comes, you make choices and you always think about like, oh, in an alternate universe, would this be better or worse for me? But I do think like that is kind of how things needed to go for me. I needed to learn that lesson sort of the hard way. But yeah, so yeah, I went to Emerson and then to Penn State and then back to Emerson where I graduated.

[32:51] Jayke Workman: Okay, and I just love that. I mean, I love many elements of that story, but I am so glad that you were so willing to talk about it because there is such strange like stigma and shame about either leaving a program or coming back to a program.

[33:06] Thomas Doelger: Or see all of the above.

[33:14] Jayke Workman: All of the above. Yeah. There's also strange pressure in terms of timing of like, oh gosh, I auditioned for all these programs. I didn't get into one. So I'm done. Like I am cooked. I missed the year, the opportunity, whatever. And I think it's easier said than done and it certainly comes with time. But like I no longer feel the pressure of being like, I'm running out of time. And I think that's part of the beauty of this industry. And also, you know, on the flip side of things, it can get a little tricky. But you don't ever stop being an actor if you don't want to. You can do this forever. And so even in the idea of like people, I have a couple friends who are like, maybe I'm going to go back to school for theater.

[34:12] Thomas Doelger: Yeah. That, you know, like I've always just hated that weird mentality of like the super senior or like this person has stayed longer for whatever reason.

[34:24] Jayke Workman: The older person.

[34:25] Thomas Doelger: That is also paired with the idea that like, which drives me so crazy, which I think is a fear a lot of people have and also just like the way our culture treats these people. But it's like if someone decides to prioritize their own happiness or prioritize having a life that's more financially stable, they're quitters. They couldn't hack it. They weren't good enough. It's like, no, they're actually smart. Like they actually made a wise decision and chose like, and realized like living sort of like with your career and your well-being and almost like your identity in the hands of other people. It's not normal for humans to behave.

[35:05] Jayke Workman: No.

[35:06] Thomas Doelger: And throw themselves into situations like that. And like you can still be an actor and work in corporate America and like take a scene study class at night and not be the extent you are still an actor at the end of the day.

[35:16] Jayke Workman: Absolutely.

[35:17] Thomas Doelger: Yeah. The stigma around it is just like, but it's also like the people furthering those stigmas are people just like trying to point the figure at someone else before someone can point at them.

[35:24] Jayke Workman: Totally.

[35:25] Thomas Doelger: And I also do think, I mean, not for nothing, there are also like on the flip side, there are those people who want it more than anything, love it, but don't have it. And the inability to relinquish that desire leads people to such a disservice sometimes where you're like, this just isn't what you are best at or what you should do.

[35:51] Jayke Workman: So like in thinking of like a college program, I didn't go to a cut program, but hearing about them, I don't think they really exist anymore, do they?

[36:00] Thomas Doelger: I don't know. There were certainly elements of my program that were like, I mean, you know, with like juries or evals or whatever, where they would very blatantly-

[36:10] Jayke Workman: I loved juries.

[36:12] Thomas Doelger: You would, you bitch.

[36:14] Jayke Workman: I loved going to the library and give me a grade.

[36:17] Thomas Doelger: Because especially at Penn State, the juries were, you had to do so much research. Like I think for one of my-

[36:22] Jayke Workman: Research?

[36:23] Thomas Doelger: They were like, what was Kurt Weill's mother's name? What in the what?

[36:26] Jayke Workman: No, exactly.

[36:27] Thomas Doelger: And you're like Marie, next.

[36:28] Jayke Workman: No, and I knew.

[36:29] Thomas Doelger: And I said, let me tell you something about that. Miss Mary Saunders Martin.

[36:32] Jayke Workman: Oh my God.

[36:34] Thomas Doelger: So we would like lock ourselves in like coffee shops and be like, I would have to look at, I would be like reading up on like JRB's like childhood because I was singing Old Red Hills of Home for my juries. That's the kind of psychotic, but my borderline autistic brain loved storing those fun facts up.

[36:49] Jayke Workman: Of course, that hyper fixation.

[36:50] Thomas Doelger: Oh, forget it. Absolutely. Me just combing the internet.

[36:54] Jayke Workman: Okay, well they say it's a spectrum because it's a spectrum.

[36:56] Thomas Doelger: I feel like we are all touched by the tism.

[36:59] Jayke Workman: Can I tell you a real, a moment that happened in the dressing room the other day?

[37:02] Thomas Doelger: Yes.

[37:03] Jayke Workman: I see a movie. I see a TV show instantly. All of it memorized. No problem.

[37:06] Thomas Doelger: Oh, absolutely.

[37:08] Jayke Workman: And it will just come out of my brain at random times.

[37:10] Thomas Doelger: So I was talking to one person in the mirror, had to take an aside to complete a movie quote to myself, and then went back to talking to my friend. And my coworker goes, oh my God, you are on the spectrum. He's like, it all makes sense. He goes, oh my God, you quote entire movies and you have this weird fear of Dutch art. You have autism.

[37:29] Thomas Doelger: Yes.

[37:30] Jayke Workman: And I was like, yeah, probably. A hundred percent.

[37:32] Thomas Doelger: Yes, probably. Do you know the number of times that I, someone would be like, what do you, someone's talking to me. And I will literally just go, I am aware of the meaning of manta raya. What I am unaware of is why you are giving me a vocabulary lesson when you should be questioning your witness. And people are like, are you okay? And you're just like, what? Go on.

[37:54] Thomas Doelger: It's such a scratch that little itch.

[37:55] Jayke Workman: Yes.

[37:56] Thomas Doelger: No, Mary, it's, it's, I'm so broken brained. It's out of control. But I think it lends itself to the world of theater. You know, the movie holes, obviously.

[38:06] Jayke Workman: Of course.

[38:07] Thomas Doelger: Out of nowhere the other day, my castmate and I just went through a whole scene of holes, but we literally weren't talking about anything. And I said, caveman, will you hand me my nail polish container? And we did the entire thing. The secret ingredient, rattlesnake venom. It's perfectly harmless when it's dry. I just love what it does to the color.

[38:26] Jayke Workman: Absolutely.

[38:27] Thomas Doelger: Excuse me.

[38:28] Jayke Workman: Oh no, that's what it was.

[38:30] Thomas Doelger: He hands her the nail polish thing and she goes, and I thank you. And then the rest of the day I just kept going, and I thank you.

[38:37] Jayke Workman: I will often go, well, that's just too damn bad.

[38:40] Thomas Doelger: You keep digging.

[38:41] Jayke Workman: I love it.

[38:42] Thomas Doelger: I love that movie. Used to scare the shit out of me as a child.

[38:45] Jayke Workman: Me too.

[38:46] Thomas Doelger: I would literally keep my feet up off of the couch, like off of the floor onto the couch.

[38:50] Jayke Workman: Lizards.

[38:51] Thomas Doelger: The Lizards. The Yellow-Spotted Lizards.

[38:52] Jayke Workman: Come here, sweetheart.

[38:53] Thomas Doelger: Oh my god! Daryl Hannah!

[38:56] Jayke Workman: No, that's not Daryl Hannah.

[38:57] Thomas Doelger: Patricia Arquette.

[38:58] Jayke Workman: Patricia Arquette. And can I tell you something crazy about that?

[39:00] Thomas Doelger: When she filmed Holes as Kissing Kate Barlow, she had already been filming Boyhood for five years.

[39:05] Jayke Workman: That's insane.

[39:06] Thomas Doelger: Isn't that nuts?

[39:08] Jayke Workman: Oh my god. Because she filmed it for like 15 years.

[39:09] Thomas Doelger: I never saw Boyhood.

[39:10] Jayke Workman: Me neither. Too long.

[39:11] Thomas Doelger: Too long.

[39:12] Jayke Workman: Next.

[39:12] Thomas Doelger: Next.

[39:13] Jayke Workman: You think I'm seeing the fucking Brutalist?

[39:14] Thomas Doelger: Do something else.

[39:15] Jayke Workman: Four hours with an intermesh?

[39:16] Thomas Doelger: Do my-

[39:16] Jayke Workman: Next card, honey! Next card!

[39:17] Thomas Doelger: The word brutal is in the title.

[39:19] Jayke Workman: Why would I watch that?

[39:20] Thomas Doelger: Pass.

[39:21] Jayke Workman: No.

[39:22] Thomas Doelger: Honestly, I feel the same about a certain Merrily We Roll Along movie that's taking 30 years to be made.

[39:26] Jayke Workman: Why? I don't need it.

[39:30] Thomas Doelger: Bye!

[39:31] Jayke Workman: See ya!

[39:31] Thomas Doelger: Bye!

[39:32] Jayke Workman: No, thank you.

[39:33] Thomas Doelger: Lift the needle. Next track.

[39:34] Jayke Workman: Lift the needle.

[39:35] Thomas Doelger: No, I-

[39:36] Jayke Workman: I couldn't care less.

[39:36] Thomas Doelger: No, no, no, no.

[39:37] Jayke Workman: But we can't get into that.

[39:38] Thomas Doelger: Yeah.

[39:42] Jayke Workman: Okay. So we share a connection because of where you are from.

[39:48] Thomas Doelger: We are in love with each other.

[39:49] Jayke Workman: We are in love.

[39:50] Thomas Doelger: Yes. We share a deep, deep connection because of our love.

[39:55] Jayke Workman: We-

[39:56] Thomas Doelger: I went to school in Hartford, Connecticut.

[39:58] Jayke Workman: You sure did.

[39:59] Thomas Doelger: You grew up in West Hartford, Connecticut.

[40:01] Jayke Workman: I sure did. And while this is like, I guess, hearkening back to what we were talking about in like search of collegiate programs, but I knew nothing.

[40:10] Thomas Doelger: So I think I like the universe kind of did me a great, a great service by just pushing me in the direction of this program.

[40:21] Jayke Workman: I didn't- I wasn't planning on auditioning and then it was like very last minute.

[40:25] Thomas Doelger: I went and I was at Unifieds and they had an opening and whatever and I fell in love with the program and I was so glad.

[40:32] Jayke Workman: But I remember my mom coming to me and being like, well, I've been doing some reading about different programs and it seems that there's this really great program in Michigan.

[40:40] Thomas Doelger: And I was like, Michigan?

[40:42] Jayke Workman: That is way too close to Minnesota.

[40:45] Thomas Doelger: I'm not going to fucking Michigan. What do you mean?

[40:47] Jayke Workman: I was like, I need to be on the East Coast.

[40:49] Thomas Doelger: I was like hell-bent on being in like New York or Boston, you know, that whole thing, but I didn't know about the specific programs.

[40:55] Jayke Workman: Yeah.

[40:55] Thomas Doelger: So then I ended up in Hartford, but we never crossed paths, even though you literally grew up in West Hartford.

[41:04] Jayke Workman: Yes, but when you were in school there, I was gone.

[41:06] Thomas Doelger: Right. But we had, of course, Mutuals, Miss Olivia Fenton and so many people who you- Benjamin Roush.

[41:12] Jayke Workman: Benjamin Roush!

[41:14] Thomas Doelger: Jamie.

[41:14] Jayke Workman: Jamie.

[41:16] Thomas Doelger: Jamie. What's up with that?

[41:17] Jayke Workman: Benjamin, if you're listening. What's up with that?

[41:19] Thomas Doelger: I saw that this morning on Instagram and I said, Jamie.

[41:22] Jayke Workman: Who's Jamie?

[41:23] Thomas Doelger: Benjamin.

[41:24] Jayke Workman: Full name.

[41:25] Thomas Doelger: First and last even.

[41:26] Jayke Workman: Yes.

[41:26] Thomas Doelger: He's always Benjamin Roush.

[41:27] Jayke Workman: Of course, but tell me about your upbringing in West Hartford slash how you came to be so open in your queerness and in being a performer at such a young age because I feel like a lot of people don't have that luxury.

[41:46] Thomas Doelger: No, I loved growing up in West Hartford. It's so funny. When I was there and I was like a little snot-nosed kid. I was like, this sucks. I wish I were in LA or New York and I was a cool Disney Channel kid.

[41:58] Jayke Workman: I was in Kansas City.

[41:59] Thomas Doelger: Oh, forget it. Same thing.

[42:00] Jayke Workman: You win.

[42:01] Thomas Doelger: No, everything's up to date, I hear.

[42:04] Jayke Workman: But there was such a bizarre focus and celebration on the arts specifically in the public school system at West Hartford.

[42:14] Thomas Doelger: It was crazy. Like we had a separate Performing Arts High School that a lot of the kids at Hall, my public school, were like, well, our program's better. So I think I'm going to stay here.

[42:23] Jayke Workman: Crazy.

[42:23] Thomas Doelger: Crazy. What was that the Performing Arts School? Like Manor or something?

[42:27] Jayke Workman: Greater Hartford Academy of the Arts.

[42:28] Thomas Doelger: Oh, Academy. Okay.

[42:29] Jayke Workman: GHA.

[42:29] Thomas Doelger: G-H-A-A.

[42:30] Jayke Workman: Gotcha.

[42:33] Thomas Doelger: Yeah, good for them.

[42:35] Jayke Workman: So I was, it was an odd combination of a few things. The training was really, really good. Also like the singers and the artist kids and the choir kids were like the popular kids, which I feel like is not, so I didn't have to, there was no like social game I had to sacrifice to like pursue what I loved because I could socially flourish and artistically flourish simultaneously.

[43:00] Thomas Doelger: And yeah, I mean I, in terms of like my queerness, I came out very, very early because who was I fooling?

[43:05] Jayke Workman: Sure.

[43:06] Thomas Doelger: I think I came out when I was like 14.

[43:09] Jayke Workman: Same.

[43:10] Thomas Doelger: Nance, my mom kind of, she was like, well, I've been reading your texts and I know you're trying to have a sleepover with this boy because you two are kissing.

[43:16] Jayke Workman: And I said, how dare you accuse me of such a thing?

[43:19] Thomas Doelger: How dare you? And then I was like, well, he's my boyfriend now. So I'm not saying what you did was right, but you were not right.

[43:25] Jayke Workman: So being queer came very natural to me and like, I don't know, affected my like social life very little, which is such a blessing and I know is not a common experience.

[43:41] Thomas Doelger: Yeah, but it's also so funny. I recently went back to my high school to do this like alumni concert, huge jazz show they do, which I love so much and I was talking to all the kids and I like sort of like briefly mentioned like Hunter and referred to him as like my boyfriend and my teacher I was with said she watched like six kids like shoulders just sort of drop, which is really, really sweet.

[44:01] Jayke Workman: I know, I know, I know, I'm like, see you can't be gay and happy.

[44:07] Thomas Doelger: Yes, gay means happy for a reason.

[44:12] Jayke Workman: Yeah, and then I will yeah, I was trying to think what else I'm going to school going to school in Boston. Everyone was gay.

[44:21] Thomas Doelger: It was like who cares?

[44:25] Jayke Workman: It wasn't until I didn't really need to like look at my queerness in like an analytical or like curious way.

[44:31] Thomas Doelger: I think until I moved to New York and I think until post pandemic, honestly, we're like.

[44:38] Jayke Workman: I was just being sent on like leading man thing after leading man thing after leading man thing and I would be like, well look at you.

[44:45] Thomas Doelger: It's a perfect fit.

[44:46] Jayke Workman: I'm like, I don't this doesn't feel good.

[44:50] Thomas Doelger: And like it was it we've talked about this OTP off the pod, but like I feel like with.

[44:57] Jayke Workman: Queer people in our business, especially non-binary people.

[45:00] Thomas Doelger: There are like two tracks they can put us in and that's kind of it.

[45:04] Jayke Workman: It's either like you pass or you are like capital Q or you fail or you fail.

[45:10] Thomas Doelger: Yeah, but it's like it's like this is reserved for like really queer people.

[45:15] Jayke Workman: What does that mean?

[45:17] Thomas Doelger: Right? And it's like, well, you kind of look like a straight boy. So like we'll put you over here exactly and I was just sort of and so many things would come my way and I'd be like, oh my God, I feel like I'm super right for this.

[45:25] Jayke Workman: I feel like I would tear this up like this is really what I'm right for and like my friends in the industry would sort of be like, no, we don't think they'll see you in that way.

[45:33] Thomas Doelger: Yeah, and I was like why that is so crazy and all my friends like what roles do you want to play?

[45:38] Jayke Workman: I was like, I don't know dot and Sunday in the park with George.

[45:41] Thomas Doelger: Yeah, what is wrong with that?

[45:42] Jayke Workman: Yes.

[45:43] Thomas Doelger: So it was funny like stepping into Mormon as a non-binary person.

[45:47] Jayke Workman: I was like, oh, I'm really putting on the costume, huh?

[45:50] Thomas Doelger: I know I was literally going to say cut to you being the leading man crazy.

[45:56] Jayke Workman: Does it feel dissonant?

[45:58] Thomas Doelger: Um, yes, I think oddly enough.

[46:03] Jayke Workman: It would feel more dissonant if he had a female love interest like I think like there's it's the Mormons are kind of like sexless beings.

[46:11] Thomas Doelger: So if I feel like I would feel famously famously and well, anyway, I know about soaking.

[46:19] Jayke Workman: That's all I'll say but it's like I think I think I would feel differently if like part of doing my job successfully was like believably like chasing after a girl or like sure winning the like he's a 19 year old kid.

[46:32] Thomas Doelger: Yeah, so I think that humanity a good point kind of like help me find my way in in a way that felt authentic.

[46:39] Jayke Workman: But like even in looking like how I dress every day going to the theater.

[46:42] Thomas Doelger: I'm like so interesting because I don't feel uncomfortable and I don't feel like not myself but like this key queer part of my identity is definitely being stifled is the wrong word but like push to the back a little bit by the job.

[46:57] Jayke Workman: I have to do every day which I mean, I've spoken a lot about that, you know, just about how I do want to play women.

[47:07] Thomas Doelger: I also do want to play men same but they are non-binary but they won't let us they won't let us but at the same time.

[47:15] Jayke Workman: I think like in the same way that you know, there's this like sort of argument about like if it's queer role, it should be played by queers.

[47:20] Thomas Doelger: That is Tom foolery to me and I hate when my gay friends get mad at me for saying that because I'm like, I know it's playing a pretend.

[47:30] Jayke Workman: I don't know about you.

[47:30] Thomas Doelger: I got interested in theater because I was like really like stimulated and inspired by like stepping into the shoes of someone entirely different from me because it's so playing pretend.

[47:40] Jayke Workman: I have to be me every day.

[47:41] Thomas Doelger: I have to be me on stage too.

[47:42] Jayke Workman: And if I'm right then I'm not allowed like what is the point?

[47:45] Thomas Doelger: No, and that's what part of the magic of getting to play Mary Sunshine.

[47:48] Jayke Workman: It's like there is such a physical transformation that like I really get to it's I mean RuPaul always says it like drag does not hide who you are.

[47:56] Thomas Doelger: It reveals who you are and I feel so beautiful.

[48:01] Jayke Workman: Well, you look so beautiful. May I just say I feel so celebrated.

[48:06] Thomas Doelger: Yes, you know in in my queerness when I get to be in that role and in that costume and yeah seeing the way that I was born to sing, you know, 100% coloratura.

[48:17] Jayke Workman: Miss coloratura.

[48:20] Thomas Doelger: But yeah, I think it's an interesting thing to talk about as queer people and as non-binary people because there is like that strange.

[48:29] Jayke Workman: I mean, it's I would say it's completely different from brown people playing brown people.

[48:35] Thomas Doelger: That's not something yes that we can just like a hundred percent argue about.

[48:42] Jayke Workman: A hundred percent. That needs to be what happens.

[48:44] Thomas Doelger: Yes. If the character is brown the actor needs to be brown agreed in any capacity, whatever that means, you know, any ethnicity or heritage or whatever but queerness much like autism a spectrum a spectrum and also I want to be considered to play straight men.

[49:02] Jayke Workman: Yes.

[49:03] Thomas Doelger: So made the best woman win like if I'm the best for the job then I will get the job.

[49:10] Jayke Workman: It's so funny because everyone was talking about this when The Inheritance came out and I saw The Inheritance.

[49:14] Thomas Doelger: Did you see it?

[49:15] Jayke Workman: No, I saw it and I fucking loved it and I felt so represented by all the performances on that stage which were straight actors playing queer people and I was like, isn't that a win for everybody right that like this person could so directly embody the experience that I have as a queer person that is foreign to him innately, but now he kind of understands like and also opening those doors.

[49:43] Thomas Doelger: I want the best.

[49:45] Jayke Workman: It's just it makes me so upset and I feel like it just does not come from a genuine place when this often when this argument is thrown around about queer people playing straight roles and vice versa because I'm just like you're just one of the job.

[49:56] Thomas Doelger: You're just sad.

[49:56] Jayke Workman: It's not you.

[49:57] Thomas Doelger: Yeah, like you're just sad.

[49:58] Jayke Workman: It's not you like I would like there's so many performances.

[50:03] Thomas Doelger: I'm so inspired by of like straight cis men playing queer people because they embody a part of the queer experience that they wouldn't know about that.

[50:10] Jayke Workman: I know about that.

[50:11] Thomas Doelger: They're doing to a tee.

[50:13] Jayke Workman: Yes, and I just think that furthers everyone's understanding of queerness and like acceptance of queerness and I don't and also not to be that bitch, but I will be that bitch because this is my fucking podcast.

[50:22] Thomas Doelger: I think it's hot.

[50:25] Jayke Workman: Sometimes I want to see the boys that I know will not kiss boys kiss boys.

[50:31] Thomas Doelger: Did you see that clip of Andrew Garfield on Colbert where they on replay on replay just the I love him.

[50:39] Jayke Workman: So me too and that's a perfect example of like because he's done the research.

[50:44] Thomas Doelger: He's clearly actually an ally.

[50:46] Jayke Workman: He knows about the queer community and celebrates the community.

[50:51] Thomas Doelger: So if he is going to smooch boys on camera, I'm going to watch it.

[50:54] Jayke Workman: I just think this I think I can only speak to my own lived human experience.

[51:00] Thomas Doelger: However, but I just feel like this argument specifically.

[51:05] Jayke Workman: Stems from a place of bitterness and not a place of a lack of understanding actual actual care about representation.

[51:15] Thomas Doelger: Yes, which drives me crazy.

[51:17] Jayke Workman: Like I don't know.

[51:19] Thomas Doelger: I just think that this I'll say it like I do find our business although it is sort of like a hub that celebrates queer people to be very innately homophobic.

[51:31] Jayke Workman: Of course the way it operates and I just think like why are you adding like we're already working hard enough.

[51:36] Thomas Doelger: Like why are you adding fuels to the fire for no reason right when it doesn't need to I remember I I was in for the and Julia tour and they were like they don't really know what to do with you.

[51:45] Thomas Doelger: So they're going to have you come in and do Shakespeare Romeo and.

[51:48] Thomas Doelger: This is who I am. All of them.

[52:18] Jayke Workman: I can't speak to it. I mean, I would do it, of course, and I wasn't for May, but having seen it now, I hadn't seen it when I auditioned for it, and now having seen it, I'm a little like, we are a non-binary person singing, I'm not a girl, not yet a woman, but then we're gonna do Backstreet Boys later. There were a lot of things where I was like, hmm, I don't understand.

[52:42] Thomas Doelger: For non-binaries sake. Yes, yes, very that. Okay, well, I do, I mean, we've been chatting and chatting, but I do have to ask you about your solo show, which I had the immense pleasure of joining you for, and when you asked me, I was like over the moon, because it was so, I just adore you, and it was so special to get to see you have like a full evening of, because you really did not shy away from being like, this is who I am. Yeah. These are the things that I want and should play. Yeah. And sing. Tell me about like the creation of that for you.

[53:20] Thomas Doelger: I just, well that was born from, I did a solo show earlier in the year called The Dame in Distress, which is all about how like my like adoration and obsession with like female characters and females in musical theater, it sort of like led to me realizing I was non-binary. So like that was a sort of journey, and I talked about it in the show where like, I talked about like the He pronoun series, feeling like when you put like a hundred percent cotton shirt in the dryer by mistake, and then you put it on, you're like, no one else will notice that this has shrunk, this does not feel right to me, and I just, I'm gonna spend the whole day stretching out the sleeves and pulling at the bottom of it to like make it feel right, and it's never gonna be the same, and I just, this doesn't fit anymore.

And I think from that sort of realization came this, especially when I just like had so much trouble getting a job, being like, okay well you know what? I'm gonna do whatever the fuck I want, and I'm gonna do what feels good, and what feels good is like putting on a sparkly gown and like cosplaying as Judy Garland for an evening. And Green Room 42 reached out to me, they're like, we have some open dates, do you want to throw a new show together? And I was like, yeah what do I want to do? I was like, oh I would love sort of like a 30s, 40s like jazz saloon night. And so I just like threw together some of my favorite jazz tunes. We also, we had a really strong jazz music program in West Hartford growing up, so jazz has always sort of been in my vocabulary and in my heart.

Grabbed You, Grabbed Anasia, two of my favorite voices. And I was like, let's do it girl. It was just so much, it's just, it's just fun creating the space for yourself to just be exactly who you are, which I feel like is so infrequent in the industry we work in. And yeah, I just had so much fun.

[54:57] Jayke Workman: It was such a pleasure. Thanks. I'm glad you came. And you were fabulous. Thanks. It was amazing. And I'm always, you know, people talk about like make your own work and whatever, but like I'm always so in awe of when someone can not just sort of like string together a few favorite songs, but like actually have a perspective and a point of view.

[55:15] Thomas Doelger: Well thank you. And Green Room 42, my god, it's my favorite place to sing in the city. It rocks. I'm trying to put another one together for the spring, but I haven't decided yet, but exclusive. Dame of Distress 2 may be coming to the Green Room. You heard it here on the pod.

[55:42] Jayke Workman: Okay, well, I absolutely adore you. Before I let you go, I have a series of musical theater rapid-fire questions that I ask every guest. Let me find it. I can't wait. Are you ready?

[55:55] Thomas Doelger: Born ready, babe.

[55:56] Jayke Workman: Sondheim or Andrew Lloyd Webber?

[55:58] Thomas Doelger: Sondheim.

[56:00] Jayke Workman: Sweatpants or jeans?

[56:01] Thomas Doelger: Sweatpants.

[56:02] Jayke Workman: Do you have a favorite musical?

[56:04] Thomas Doelger: Sunday in the Park with George or Next to Normal. The duality of my identity.

[56:10] Jayke Workman: Are you a dot or a diana?

[56:11] Thomas Doelger: Non-binary. Thank you very much.

[56:12] Jayke Workman: Do you have a least favorite musical?

[56:14] Thomas Doelger: Yeah, I'm sure I do. And what would that be?

[56:18] Jayke Workman: You know what? It's me being Z-Way. And what would that be?

[56:26] Thomas Doelger: I think my actual, a musical where like if I see it on a... Like someone's season? Season, I'm like, no, is probably Oklahoma or South Pacific.

[56:32] Jayke Workman: Mm-hmm. Okay. I'm just like, who asked? Who asked for that?

[56:39] Thomas Doelger: Yeah. Would you ever like to do a Broadway play?

[56:44] Jayke Workman: Oh my god, I would love to. My sweet, sweet dad, who did tell me to quit show business two months before I booked Broadway. I was like, I've never heard of that play. My sweet, sweet dad, yeah. My sweet, sweet dad by Thomas Doelger. Yeah. He came to see my last Price show. They've come to every single one. They're so supportive. They're so cute. And he was like, you know what I realized today? You're a really good actor. You should maybe try doing some plays. Now. I don't want to check until now. Thank you so much. Yeah, I would love to do a play on Broadway. My friend, my best friend, Madeline and I, leading up to Mormon, we are overdue to get back into this habit. But like once every two weeks, we would just get a studio and work on monologues together.

[57:13] Thomas Doelger: Love that. Just to like fill our artist cup and fuck around with each other. Not like that. Artistically. Yeah, I would love to do a play on Broadway. I you and I, I just want us to tag team. Oh, Mary. Oh my just for Oh, just for us. Or somehow there's like a buyer and seller, but it's a two hander done. Gutenberg. Okay, you take the basement. I'll take above ground. Gatenberg. Gatenberg. Doing all the work for him.

[57:39] Jayke Workman: Are you a morning person or a night owl?

[57:41] Thomas Doelger: Oh, like somehow neither. I like I do in the afternoon. Okay, I would I would say probably night night person. Prefer I would prefer to be up later than up earlier. So I'll say a night owl.

[57:55] Jayke Workman: Can you think of the craziest thing a director has ever asked you to do either in a rehearsal room or in an audition setting?

[58:02] Thomas Doelger: Yeah. I have to think about which one I want to tell. In an audition setting or a Oh, this I mean, this is like kind of a PG one. It's the first one that came to mind. But when I was auditioning for schools, someone asked me to do my Shakespeare monologue as a horse.

[58:29] Jayke Workman: No. Right. Nay. Nay. I say nay to that. And I'm trotting right out of here. I'm sure there are more but that's the one I really just came to mind.

[58:42] Jayke Workman: Golden Age or Contemporary?

[58:44] Thomas Doelger: Oh, God, Golden Age. Right? Yeah, 100%.

[58:47] Jayke Workman: Favorite role you've ever played?

[58:51] Thomas Doelger: Um, I have two. I got to play Gabe in Next to Normal when I was 16, which was so special. So fun. I also we did Romeo and Juliet when I was in high school. I was literally in the ensemble, but it took place on like an abandoned playground in the 90s. So it's like sort of like a gang war. It was the most fun I've ever had in a show ever. We like saying like Pearl Jam and like Muse and like, Juliet was like a Twilight freak, like a weird, like nerd girl. And Romeo was just like this sort of like gay basket case. That show was like the most fun I think I've ever had on stage. I think that's also I was like 14. It was the first time I was like acting for real. And I was like, Oh, this is fun. Oh, this is it, honey.

[59:36] Jayke Workman: Coffee or tea?

[59:37] Thomas Doelger: Coffee.

[59:38] Jayke Workman: What is the hardest show you've ever done?

[59:40] Thomas Doelger: Oh, Book of Mormon. It's not a chorus line? Well, chorus line was tough psychologically. But as far as like the day in and day out.

[59:57] Thomas Doelger: No, I'm going back. You want to talk about crazy things said to me in an audition room? Miss Bayork Lee. Bayork Lee. Bayork Lee was out and she was out to get me. Some of my favorite things she's ever said to me because she hated that I don't have any ballet training, which is like, if I could turn back time, I should have been at a ballet bar when I was like five. But during the ballet section, I played Al. He does not book it, by the way. She could have written this off. The back leg of the jeté was never straight. And so she would always be like, Oh, Thomas, that leg. It's like a ham hock. And then she was like, We're going to China. They're going to judge you. Ballet is ballet in any language.

Ballet is French for the record. Ballet is ballet in any language. They know a ham hock. And then one time over the god mic, she goes, Thomas, what's going on with your pants? I had these terrible brown felt pants. Those brown thick elastic. And I was like this. And I start like pointing to what I think she's talking about. She goes, Yes, what's going on? It looks like you're wearing a fanny pack. I go, That's my skin. And she goes, Oh my God, just put a jacket on. Go get your jacket. We'll hurry. Quickly. Bouret bouret on the god mic in China. I was like, I am going to just walk into traffic. I was like, Now she's body shaming me. Ballet from ballet to body shame. Oh, she really would not let me have a day of peace.

[1:01:11] Jayke Workman: I ran into Bayork at the Broadway World events.

[1:01:13] Thomas Doelger: Oh, no, no, no. I spotted her. That little Edna Mode haircut from a mile away. And we got to chatting. And then I was like, I would love to have you on my podcast. And she said, Amazing. What is a podcast? And I said, Great. Next question. I gotta go.

[1:01:35] Jayke Workman: Um, who is the silliest cast member in the Book of Mormon?

[1:01:38] Thomas Doelger: Cody Strand. Cody plays Elder Cunningham. His show is different every night because he just sort of just like does what the spirit moves him to do. Love. And like, Cody and I have also had like full voice conversations on stage where he's like laughing and like cursing. Like, he's just like the best. It makes every show so fun. And if something goes wrong, he's the first to literally point at it and be like, What's that? That's wrong. Yep. That's hilarious. I mean, we're all pretty silly, but it would probably be Cody. I do know Miss PJ Atzema has some shit to say. Always. Always. Yeah. I love PJ so much. That's my sister. When we get to be McKinley and Price, it's very, very fun. That is so fun.

We rehearsed because I refuse. There's like a fake out kiss between the two of them. And when it's not done properly, it doesn't get a laugh, which I will not stand for. So I literally, my first show on, I was like, Get over here. Grab. Grab. Fall for the kiss. Cut. Nope. Do it again. Grab. Grab. Go for the kiss. He's like, You should feel my breath. That's how close it should be. One. Two. Run. In the first show, I blew it. And I was like, Come to my room. We're going to rehearse this. Come to my room. Until I blew in the face. We're going to kiss. We're going to kiss. He's like, All right.

[1:02:47] Jayke Workman: Well, my last question for you is a question I ask every guest, which is one. What is one thing you would tell Baby Thomas?

[1:03:00] Thomas Doelger: Ballet is ballet in any language. They know a ham hock. And I've always said that. And I've always said that. No, my real answer is just like, It's so funny. Everyone's like, Don't you think Little Thomas would be so proud of you? And I was like, No, this is what Little Thomas like expected my life to be. Entitled little cunt. They'd be like, Um, no, let's get it together, bitch. Yeah. So like, yeah. Little Thomas would look at my life and be like, Precisely right. Correct. Yeah. So I think my advice would just be like, You're not going to believe me until you're older, but like, feel free to let life in and just like keep your death grip off like the expectations of what you think your life should be. Love. And also ballet is ballet in any language. They know a ham hock.

[1:03:41] Jayke Workman: Thomas, I freaking adore you.

[1:03:43] Thomas Doelger: I love you!

[1:03:44] Jayke Workman: Can you tell the listeners where they can find you on socials? Slash. We barely even touched on it at all. But where they can find your podcast?

[1:03:50] Thomas Doelger: Oh, my God. Thank you so much. You're really in the 11th hour. We're talking about my pod. You can find me on Instagram at TDolg. I'm also on TikTok on the same handle.

[1:04:02] Jayke Workman: Oh, yes, you are.

[1:04:03] Thomas Doelger: I love TikTok so much. And then my podcast, Everybody's Best Friend releases new episodes every Thursday. We're at bestfriend underscore podcast on Instagram. We're available wherever you listen to podcasts. So love. I love you.

[1:04:18] Jayke Workman: I love you.

[1:04:19] Thomas Doelger: Oh, my pod.

[1:04:20] Jayke Workman: Oh, my pod. Can you believe?

[1:04:24] Jayke Workman: You guys, that's it for another episode of Oh My Pod, you guys. Don't forget to rate, review and subscribe anywhere you listen to the pod. And you can follow the show on Instagram at Oh My Pod, you guys. Thank you so, so much for listening. Talk soon. Bye!