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[0:00] Eric Gilliom: Yeah, he's really fun. I just realized what I should have worn. I've still got the t-shirt that you made for us all. Joey gave us all an opening night present. It says, Carrie White eats shit. Joey. Still have it. I should have worn it.

[0:19] Holly Morgan: Chapter 3. Stratford. Doesn't anybody ever get it right?

[0:42] Chris Adams: Welcome back to Out for Blood, our deep dive into the notoriously short-lived Broadway adaptation of Stephen King's bloody tale, Carrie. You know, Carrie, the girl who gets her first period in the school showers triggering telekinetic powers, causing her to massacre her classmates. Jazz hands. I'm Holly. And I'm Chris. Our cast is assembled in Stratford-upon-Avon, birthplace of William Shakespeare. I think that's probably the ideal location for a new pan-Atlantic mega-musical. Sounds fine to me. Yet for the first time ever in musical theatre, the company was divided precisely down the middle between Brits and Americans, and the cast soon found out that each nation had a different approach to rehearsals.

[1:21] Linzi Hateley: Americans work completely differently to British people. They give you 150% from the first half an hour of rehearsals. They're just brilliant. You just go, look what they're doing. My God, we'll never do this. And I watched the girls because in the cast, it was more British girls than American girls. And the American girls from day one were so amazing that you went, oh God, they're going to be just phenomenal. But I watched the British girls, who were all stunning dancers, go from quiet, nice performances right through. And I, if I'm honest, I think that by the time we got to Stratford to performances, the British girls outshone the Americans, just because it's a different way of working. And it's slightly more cerebral.

I don't know about the boys because I was one of them. And I certainly think someone like Scott Wise, you can't beat him as a dancer. He's just an amazing performer. And the American boys were just cooler than us. I wish we could do it more, much, much more, because I think, and now I've lived in New York for six and a half years, it's very interesting to watch how Americans approach a role.

[2:34] Linzi Hateley: Choreographer Debbie Allen approached rehearsals with an impressive intensity. Well, the first thing I'd like to say was, and she'd say it too, is that she just had a baby. And so she wanted to get rid of the baby fat. And so in doing that, she decided she didn't get our help. And so every morning we had to do whistle sprints, which is like what the army do, you know, to keep fit. And then we had to do a ballet bar. And then we had to do a jazz class. So I think we would do like two and a half hours full on dancing before we even started rehearsal. And then we'd do a vocal warm up, because she wanted to lose weight and get back into shape. But it didn't do us any harm, actually. And working with Debbie Allen, who was absolutely phenomenal. She was really, her energy and she was such a taskmaster. When we worked, we had to work so hard.

[3:27] Sally Ann Triplett: The English cast remember being taken aback by how forthright the Americans were in the rehearsal room. Americans are, with respect to the Americans online, they just, they just go for it a hundred percent. It's just, there is, we learn a lot about the difference between English and Americans doing that job. And I think the English got a little bit more American and the Americans got a little bit more English. And I remember having conversations when they were back, we had a break between Stratford and Broadway saying, they seemed different. We did rub off on each other, but the beginning was frosty, to say the least. In the very beginning in Stratford, when we were learning a routine, all the Americans were at the front by the glass and learning it and getting it right.

All the English, including people, amazing dancers like Maddie Lofton and Squeezy Thomas, we were all like at the back by the Barry bar and looking at each other going, have you got it? No, I haven't got it. If you, they're going to think we're rubbish and really doubting ourselves. And then slowly, but surely as the days went on, we became more and more confident in a kind of a, from the inside out. Whereas the, I feel Americans kind of do it all at the beginning and then kind of start to self-doubt later on, possibly. But there is obviously good and bad in both approaches.

[5:06] Sally Ann Triplett: Debbie's initial approach of pitting the American dancers against the Brits in rehearsals didn't go down too well. And she literally did Americans and then Brits. She didn't, she didn't, no, no, we were separated. And then it was like, right, English girls, English boys, American boys, American girls. And then she'd say five, six, seven, eight, and the music would come in and all the Americans would be like kicking off before the choreography and all the Brits would just stand there. And we used to just laugh because they'd all be like whooping and hollering. Because I think Brits would be more like that now, but we're talking 35 years ago, right? Am I right or something? And in those days, you know, we would just stand silent, you know, until you count.

We're looking at each other as if to say, you've got to be joking, like looking possibly a little superior, but just a little kind of, we're not whooping and hollering. And we just, it was just a real cultural difference. And she went five, six, seven, eight, and we lit collectively went bang. And we just went into this routine. And we're thinking, this is a very strange setup here. And if you want us to work as a cast, separating us isn't going to be the best way to do it.

[6:20] Kenny Linden: What I found really interesting, one thing that Terry did say was what the English dancers brought was the grace and what the American dancers brought was the energy. Kenny found it difficult adapting to Debbie's style and a friction grew between them. I mean, I trained as a ballet dancer and didn't, I sort of fell into musicals and I certainly never really trained in jazz and all that stuff. And so I was learning on the job and I was always very slow to pick things up and Debbie couldn't cope with that because, so she didn't warm to me a lot. I needed a lot of rehearsal. I didn't need a lot. I just needed to know it really well before I could actually do a performance. And I think I struggled and that was tough.

[7:05] Dean Pitchford: Rehearsals began in Putney, West London, before moving to the RSC's base in Stratford. I stayed in RSC housing, which is not as glamorous as it sounds. It's not, it was like something out of Mrs Miniver. It was little row houses, each with a little sitting room and a very narrow staircase up to a single bedroom. And there was on the wall, a little vending machine into which you could plop coins to get heat. And so the thing you had to always, I always had to remember in the course of the evening was to get enough change from the restaurant so that I had the proper coins to feed the heater at night until I crawled into bed. And in the morning, when I got out and took my shower, I just had to have enough heat and then I could get out of the place and go to rehearsal. So it was a baptism by fire or by ice.

[8:09] Linzi Hateley: Meanwhile, after their initial frostiness, the Pan-Atlantic cast grew closer. I think we probably came together when we went to Stratford because we were all out of our home environments and we all bonded hugely there. We trashed a few hotel rooms, as I remember rightly. Like every night, it was like me and all these fabulous men. It was so fun hanging out with English people because I remember thinking, they go out, they're used to doing rep, and they go out. Everybody was smoking then too, boy. And every night, drink, drink, drink, smoke, smoke, smoke. And talk about everything but theater. Talk about world events and this and that. It was just such interesting conversation. And I remember thinking, we don't do that.

Us musical theater people kind of hang out and I don't know, we talk about whatever, our cats and our dogs and I don't know. I just remember thinking, I love hanging around this. But I love the English girls and I love them all. They were fun, I have to say. They were just a little looser and a little more mature, maybe.

[9:16] Sally Ann Triplett: Another professional difference soon became apparent. The American Equity Actors Union had drilled the US cast with their rights. They knew what they were entitled to, but the Brits, not so much. I remember when the nervous man from Equity in a brown suit came in to talk about our transfer, just the coach to Stratford. The Americans were just coming out with all these demands. Well, we have two seats per person, the volume of your Walkman back in the day, your Walkman has to be at a certain level, all this stuff. And all the Brits just sat there with their arms folded going, this should be interesting. This should be very interesting. They were just on the edge of their seats going, we've got this.

And this nervous man was looking through the equity rules because we're going, there's no such thing. There was nothing. When we went to New York, we were blown away with the difference in their rights, in what their union, basically equity was for them in this country, it was quite the reverse. And they looked at us kind of pathetically as if to say, what are you doing? This is insane. It's like, listen, welcome to British theatre, no offence, but it doesn't work the same way at all.

[10:30] Chris Adams: Surely everyone was getting the same money though, right?

[10:32] Sally Ann Triplett: And their wages, what they were paid, there was a disparity in that. It was just very different based on our equity rules. So there was a split between us there.

[10:45] Linzi Hateley: By the time a meeting was called to discuss the New York transfer, the Brits had learned a thing or two about negotiating. It did come to a head when they told us that our digs in New York, we were going to have to supplement them for our wages. We'd been told we would be put up in apartments and they would do that for us. And they told us that now they'd discovered that the apartments we were going to stay in were too expensive. So they were going to take some of our wages away to do that. And we just said, no. En masse, all the Brits, we all sat there at a meeting and just said, we're not going then. And Terry Hands sat there and went, okay, we'll have to pay it then. And that's the only time I've ever, in 20 years of working, been in a company that stood together and just said, we're not going to Broadway. Can you imagine turning down a Broadway show over the sake of having to supplement your digs? But we all said no. And they went, okay, we'll pay.

[11:34] Linzi Hateley: Rehearsals went on for an exhausting 12 weeks, twice as long as your average new musical. It was 12 weeks in Britain before we even opened in Stratford. And a 12-week rehearsal period is just insane because it allows too much messing around. People aren't focused enough. They don't go, this is what we've got to achieve and we've only got six weeks to do this and let's crack on. It was too long, the rehearsal period. And the same in America. We ended up rehearsing and rehearsing, but we only rehearsed for half a day. They would call us in just for half a day. So from our point of view, it was fantastic. We're getting paid good money. We could go to the shows.

[12:10] Sally Ann Triplett: While Debbie thrashed out the dance sequences, director Terry Hands had a quieter approach. He would spend hours working alone with Lindsay and Barbara on their scenes, drawing on his experience in classical theatre to explore these dark moments and paring the text down to its bare bones. Deputy stage manager Jeremy Sturt was only 22 when he was offered the job working on Carrie. He'd been an assistant stage manager on the premiere of Chess in London when he was approached by Trevor Nunn, who'd taken over the direction of that show for its West End transfer following the tragic death of its Broadway director, Michael Bennett. Trevor basically said that there's a couple of roles going on this new musical we're going to do. Terry Hands, who's the director, desperate for it to be the next Les Mis. So he wants a musical stage manager, you know, to be there to call the show. We've obviously got nobody here at Stratford who could do it.

[13:08] Jeremy Sturt: It would be my job to track the show's progress from the very first rehearsal onwards, sitting in on all production meetings and eventually calling the lighting, sound and automation cues at every performance. It would give me a unique overview of the entire production process. I recall noticing early on that Terry and Debbie's approach to the material was fundamentally different. Debbie, you know, she wanted to put on a great dance show and she wanted to work her dancers to the bone to do that. And she was also very keen that they feel.

[13:41] Chris Adams: There are several rehearsal room videos online, professionally recorded in the RSC's Ashcroft Rehearsal Room in Stratford. You can see Debbie's precise, dynamic rehearsal style. She yells encouragement and drills the dance numbers over and over, while the young cast cheer and whoop. You can see how fast-paced the choreography is, and how completely at odds it is with the rest of the show.

[14:40] Dean Pitchford: And he sent Debbie off to rehearse, which freed him up, but he dealt with the high drama and the operatic immensity of Margaret and Carrie and their scenes. Dean and his collaborators were taken aback by the way Terry had carved up the rehearsal schedule. What they witnessed was the beginnings of Carrie's most fundamental problem. The show had essentially been divided up into sections, with little thought of how they would form one whole story.

[15:12] Terry Hands: And so what we had was a show that was created by two different people in two different spaces, and then brought together and welded down the middle. And then on top of that, Debbie was doing her damnedest, but working with costumes and in settings that were not of her, with any input from her. So everybody was working at cross-purposes. And anyway, the production eventually, what Margaret and Carrie did and what Terry did with them, yes, it was wonderful. It would have been lovely had he massaged the two segments of the piece together.

[15:58] Chris Adams: Ultimately, it was Terry's responsibility as director to make this show feel like one cohesive whole. But despite making the choice to send Debbie away to tackle the high school scenes, it seems like he failed to give clear guidance on how these sequences should look and feel. He also failed to consider how they would mold seamlessly with the scenes he was working on in isolation. For many, this would ultimately be the show's downfall.

[16:23] Kenny Linden: Terry Hands obviously wanted to direct those mother-daughter scenes with a lot of emotional integrity and rip them apart. And he wanted to do the same with our scenes, but he couldn't kind of get a weight in there because he didn't really, like they said, like we talked about with the writers, he didn't really understand it as much. So that's where I think the connection between the two parts of the show fell apart.

[16:55] Kenny Linden: I remember Terry's light-touch approach to the ensemble numbers. Debbie directed us, Debbie did everything with us. Terry didn't really tell us what to do or where to go. He was just a nice man who wore a lot of black and came in occasionally and went, hmm, good, and then walked out again. So when we came together with Lindsay and Barbara or Lindsay and Betty, we were seeing a different show. And I think that's where it didn't ever gel because the choreographer and the director need to work together.

[17:25] Charlotte d'Amboise: I think that they actually made a choice to keep mother and daughter separate so that there was this massive contrast between the two. It didn't, you know, in the big scheme of things, it didn't work, it didn't sort of make it a full show that gelled. But I think that there actually was sort of almost a choice to do that, to sort of, because until we sort of actually really started putting the show together, I had no connection with any of you. I mean, I was so intimidated by these phenomenal dancers that, you know, could not only sing, dance and act, but looked incredible. And I just, you know, I felt massively intimidated by that. But I think maybe that was also that just helped my cause. Yeah, absolutely. You know, because I was constantly intimidated by it. And, you know, and I remember clearly when I did first start rehearsing with everyone, you know, it was just it was terrifying.

[18:39] Charlotte d'Amboise: So did Terry and Debbie miss a fundamental opportunity to agree on a style for the show right from the start? I think a director's job with a choreographer is to discuss the way a musical number should be so that it gels with the next thing that it's coming to and the transition between the two things. And I don't think it felt like that. It felt like Debbie had been told to go and choreograph a great number to this song and we'd sing it and we'd dance it. And then at the end of it, he'd thrown a bit of acting if we were lucky.

[19:04] Charlotte d'Amboise: Debbie is she's a very strong willed woman, you know, and she was very she's very creative. And she had a certain outlook of how the show should look, which was a very American sort of adolescent sort of, you know, energy and feel. And then you had Terry Hands from the Royal Shakespeare Company, and he had a completely different vision of it. And what was disconcerting, I think, in rehearsal is because there were two competing visions. Terry worked with me and Barbara or me and Betty. And Debbie, you know, was with everyone else. And then at certain points, it was like, right now we'll come together. And you never sort of necessarily felt that there was a massive artistic disagreement, but I just don't think there was much harmony. I don't think I don't think I wonder how much it actually sat down together and gone, right, what are we trying to achieve as a whole thing? And I think that's why it always was like two shows in one.

[20:09] Charlotte d'Amboise: Terry Hands was very soft spoken. And very smart. He sort of let me do what I wanted to do. He didn't have much input in my performance. You know, Debbie did more for us. You know, I think he liked what I was doing as far as an actress. You know, he was odd. He was odd. You know, he wasn't a communicator in that much.

[20:39] Charlotte d'Amboise: I was faced with a tall order. As a dancer, I had to carry out Debbie Allen's insanely difficult choreography flawlessly. But in the leading bad girl role of Chris, the bully, I had to give a convincing acting performance. What I found in the script was a fairly two-dimensional body. I needed help from the creators to find some depth. You know, you want to see more of the vulnerability or why somebody is the way they are, or you really just see one side of Chris, which may have been one of the flaws, but also why it makes it kind of cultish because it's sort of like, you know, you're in red and you're the bad girl. So you don't really see why you don't ever see a vulnerability in her at all, which is unfortunate, because there was just nothing written there for that.

She was pretty much out to win. Debbie Allen was really awesome in that in finding the joy because, you know, when I first started doing it, I was just like this villain, you know what I mean? And I remember Debbie saying to me, you know, you know, find the light there, you know, have fun with it more. I want to see you have fun with it. And then it just totally switched the whole character. And I was able to find her, you know, and it was the totally right direction.

[21:49] Charlotte d'Amboise: There was another distraction for Terry, which took his eye off the cast rehearsing. When we were in Stratford, by the time we got to Stratford, Terry Hands was an award-winning lighting designer. And so Terry had decided that he would do the lights for Carrie. So we get to Stratford, we get onto the set in Stratford and forget any kind of work on the book or the music or the lyrics or performances. There came a moment where he put down the script, per se, and picked up his lighting grid, his lighting chart. And he wandered around in the theater with a microphone around his head, you know, talking to his crew, and please, let's run Q56 again. And so he became unavailable to us. And then the same thing repeated itself in New York.

And so it wasn't like we'd even go to the theater and pull him aside and say, can we talk about a moment? He was deep into lighting rehearsals and set rehearsals. And let's try that change again. It was it was torn in so many directions that no wonder I ate a lot of ice cream.

[23:11] Chris Adams: I think anyone would turn to Ben and Jerry in this situation. The writers found themselves increasingly cut out of the rehearsal process. Terry asked them not to attend, instead requesting a nightly meeting where they would exchange notes. But often Terry would send his assistant or a member of the crew. Dean, Michael and Larry felt frustrated and isolated. The creative differences between Terry and Debbie increased too.

[23:37] Linzi Hateley: It was something the actors were very aware of. I found myself on many a day of rehearsals, you know, once we got in the theater, I think to myself, what the fuck is going on here? Like this did not it didn't feel like there's something something is terribly wrong in terms of the overall piece. It just and I remember the, you know, Terry and Debbie being down and sitting in front of the theater, you know, like having these little conference meetings about, you know, this, that or the other thing. And it just it, I don't know about you guys, but it's I sensed from the get go that it wasn't it wasn't gelling the way I think that everybody had hoped that it would.

[24:19] Linzi Hateley: We think it was on stage or something or rehearsal and they had a very heated discussion about a basketball. Debbie's husband was a basketball player, Norm Nixon. And so he wanted the boys to come across with this white ball. And she was like, they look like sissies, they can't be having a white ball, they gotta have a basketball, they gotta be bouncing the basketball. And he's like, No, that doesn't make sense. Because it's America, we have to have a basketball. So it was like, it was just one small little thing that they, you know, they just didn't have the same vision, you know.

[24:53] Linzi Hateley: However, another potentially disastrous crisis was brewing. Barbara Cook, playing the role of Margaret, had been struggling with the physicality of the role throughout rehearsals. Barbara, I think, didn't know what she was gotten into. Barbara's old school Broadway. And she was, you know, she's a very, she was a very classy woman, you know, never raised a voice, never demanding. She just really walked in, did her thing, sung beautifully. But I remember they tried to levitate her. So it was basically this chair. And so Lindsay was supposed to levitate her. And it happened one night, Barbara went up to the air and came down, she never went up again. It freaked her out, you know, she felt very dangerous or whatever.

[25:42] Linzi Hateley: As well as being understandably nervous about this dubious sounding levitation effect, she had also found the songs unsuited to her vocal range and style, and was growing increasingly frustrated by Terry's cuts to her scenes. Already nervous about making her debut in a less than traditional Broadway piece, she was very aware of the growing creative tension and the impact that this was having on the quality of the work.

[26:05] Linzi Hateley: This was not the simplest show in which to make your big Broadway comeback. And we also, I mean, it was quite apparent once we got to Stratford, that Barbara wasn't happy. And Barbara was wonderful. You know, she was not only a wonderful artist, and of course, you know, a stunning vocalist, but she was a warm, gorgeous person. But she wasn't happy. You know, she got a reputation, she'd had a wonderful career. She'd done, you know, Carrie was her first thing back to Broadway after a long time, and it needed to be right for her. And I think that right from very early on, the writing was on the wall that the fit wasn't right. You know, it just wasn't right. And no matter how much, you know, we enjoyed working together, and she was kind and warm with me.

[27:00] Linzi Hateley: Barbara was also frustrated that Terry seemingly didn't grasp that there were problems with the show that she felt could have easily been fixed. She recalled in a later interview how she was, at first, wooed by his interpretation, but ultimately let down. She said, when someone first mentioned to me that they were doing a musical of Carrie, my first thought was, you've got to be kidding. Then I heard the music and thought,

[27:23] Barbara Cook: Barbara goes on to explain that she was quote, still wary of it because of the subject matter, but Terry's vision of the material intrigued me. So, positive? Not quite. Because she continues, there were many, many things about the production that were ineptly done. A lot of it came from lack of experience. For some unknown reason, they were not willing to get people in who had experience with musicals and listen to them. I'm not at all sorry that I did it, but I did absolutely the right thing in leaving it. I thought, there isn't a chance in hell that they'll be able to pull this off. Hindsight is 20-20, but Barbara's interview certainly corroborates what we've already heard. She said, they really didn't have any ideas about how to fix it.

Things were really set in concrete and they did nothing but polish the same killing dance numbers. Going in, I thought, this man is the head of the Royal Shakespeare Company. If a scene isn't working, he's going to see it's not working. Well, he didn't. Although supportive to the cast and keen not to disrupt the production process, she started to withdraw. The thing is, too, that Barbara, she marshaled her resources. She was older by this point. I would say she was in her 60s, at least. The demands of the role were extremely taxing, and we were all very aware of that. Her rehearsal was scheduled to make optimum use of the energy that she would have. She was released early, whereas both in London and in Stratford and again in New York when we finally came over, the cast hung out a lot.

My collaborators and I hung out with the cast a lot, but Barbara would go home. She needed her sleep. She knew what she needed to do. She was an athlete in that respect. When she was in the room, she was working. There wasn't a lot of like, let's go grab a burger, you know, with Barbara. But she was always gracious and always working the hardest of anybody in the room.

[29:35] Lilius White: In 2010, for an interview on BroadwayWorld.com, Lilius White, a standby for Darlene Love, recalled how she arrived in Stratford during rehearsals. She says, when I arrived there, Barbara Cook was sitting on the other side of the aisle from me. I said hello, and they were rehearsing the kill the pig scene, and they've killed the pig and the blood is everywhere. And I thought, oh, okay, I left home to do this. All right. But across the aisle, I heard Barbara Cook say, and I quote, I haven't been on Broadway in 18 years and I'm coming back with this piece of shit. That's a true story. Wow. That interview is amazing. We must post a link on the socials because it is worth a watch. I love this idea of Barbara Cook being this regal Broadway grand dame sitting in the stools quietly bitching to her mates.

[30:21] Barbara Cook: Barbara approached Terry with her concerns, telling him that she was uncomfortable with the show and unhappy that her songs seemed better suited to a belt singer. Trying to win her over, Terry spoke to Dean Pitchford and Michael Gore to see if they could work on new material with Barbara in mind. And this led to the creation of one of the show's iconic tunes and the fleshing out of a key moment.

[30:42] Dean Pitchford: In Stratford, Michael and I went off and we wrote When There's No One. And we had not had that song for Margaret to sing after. I mean, what had happened was she has the scene with Carrie. Carrie says, I'm going to the prom. You can't stop me. She goes off and Margaret stands center stage and she quotes the Bible. She says, thou shall not suffer a witch to live. And so we have at that moment her announcement that she is going to kill her daughter. But what we don't have is her, the gut-wrenching, the decision how it rings her out because she truly loves her daughter. And we had gotten all the way to Stratford without addressing that issue. So Michael and I went off and wrote When There's No One.

We had one of the greatest stars in the history of Broadway and we needed to give her something more than beating her daughter up and throwing her in a closet in Act One. And so we gave her something that she could float in that incredible inimitable style of hers. And that was the mandate for When There's No One. And it would not have happened if Barbara Cook had not been the voice in our ear.

[32:04] Dean Pitchford: Despite the new material, Barbara was unconvinced. She struggled to keep up with constant script changes and was still frustrated by the lack of depth in the way her character was presented. She asked some high-profile friends for a second opinion. Her friend and assistant Georgia Otterson recalls.

[32:20] Georgia Otterson: Well, it kept evolving as shows do. And then I remember, you know, Barbara was concerned. So at some point, Tommy Tune, she asked him to come over and Wally Harper, who's worked with her forever, and other folks to see it. Tommy Tune was a prolific Broadway performer and director.

[32:48] Georgia Otterson: Extremely tall, as I recall.

[32:49] Georgia Otterson: Very tall. And Wally Harper was a musical director and orchestrator who worked with Barbara for over 30 years. Sort of her own in-house music expert. She was hoping that one of these guys could persuade Terry to fix the show. He was absolutely thrilled when this entourage turned up. I remember her saying, we're used to having the Broadway theatre docs. So they come in, they look at a show and they're like, you know, this might be a beautiful number, but you got to cut it out because it's not happening. And but I, you know, I'm not sure that, you know, folks listen to that as an idea.

[33:30] Georgia Otterson: So Barbara resorted to drastic measures. Everybody was hanging so tight. You know how we, we all tend to hang on tight to our idea about something. And that it just, it couldn't improve if you didn't let the baby go walk a little bit and get some other ideas. And in fact, at one point, she said, go down to the hardware store, go somewhere and get a, you know, what do they call those big things? You know, the hammer. I said, oh, like a sledgehammer. I am the iron monger. And I got this huge sledgehammer. We call it a sledgehammer. I'm not sure. Do you call it a sledgehammer?

[34:14] Unknown speaker: What?

[34:14] Georgia Otterson: Yeah, that's right. Barbara Cook sent her assistant to the hardware store to buy a sledgehammer. And then one day in rehearsals.

[34:23] Georgia Otterson: You know, I think we had practically everybody there around Terry. And, you know, I took it down, you know, I went and got it and took it back to the theater and Barbara presented it to him, you know, and she, I can't remember what she wrote on it. I have a picture of her writing something on it, but the concept was do something. She was, wanted something to be done. So she was kind of over the top and Barbara was never totally subtle, you know, very, very direct, you know, and, and coming from a good heart and, and a lot of wisdom.

[35:03] Unknown speaker: It's not exactly a subtle metaphor.

[35:06] Georgia Otterson: Take a hammer to this thing, Terry. And it wasn't the first time she'd used hardware to make a point. Even earlier in rehearsals, in an exasperated mood, she'd made yet another demand to speak to Terry about the convoluted book and her desperation that her role had little character development. She was concerned that her big Broadway comeback role was becoming little more than a caricature, Deputy Stage Manager Jeremy Sturt recalls.

[35:31] Jeremy Sturt: One of Barbara's big challenges, pretty much all the way, consistently through the whole rehearsals and all the time she was on the show in Stratford, was her challenges were around the book. And she really did feel that the backstory for the mother was not developed enough, that they would be actually, it'd be really, it's really challenging. And Terry was meant, should be doing something about it. And he constantly said, yes, I'll do something about it. I'll do something about it.

[36:06] Jeremy Sturt: Terry agreed to call off rehearsals, sending the cast away for the day and taking Barbara to a nearby restaurant to try and come to a compromise over a bottle of wine. Late in the afternoon, Jeremy received a call from Terry asking him to reassemble the cast in the rehearsal room. Terry came in full of joy. Barbara's, yeah, she's in good mood. It's all going to be fine. And Barbara came in followed by Georgia, who was a friend who was with her all the time. And as they came in, Terry said, right, you look good to go. She said, yep. Remember our little deal? And he said, yes, yes, of course. And then three blokes came in behind her carrying this enormous brown package. And Terry said, what's that? She said, it's a present for you, honey. And he said, a present? Yeah. So she, he, he unwrapped the present and it was a big axe. And he said, what's this for? And Barbara said, the book, honey, the book.

[37:07] Unknown speaker: Diva loves her props. She's a props queen.

[37:09] Unknown speaker: I think she might be my new hero.

[37:11] Unknown speaker: Absolutely.

[37:12] Georgia Otterson: Surprisingly, though, these ongoing hardware hints didn't work. Barbara's mind was made up. But, you know, Barbara did not want to go back to New York in the show. She showed me, you know, what she thought. And I think she talked with a couple of other people, too, I'm sure, about how to state it. Because once she decided, you know, you want to be careful that it doesn't look like you're being fired, or that you're throwing the show under the ground, you know, so the language was very careful. And frankly, I hadn't thought about the impact, you know, the headlines and the stories and everything. And I remember her coming up to me and saying, hey, Sally, I don't think I can go to Broadway with this.

And I said something like, well, you should, you know, like, follow your heart. And if you don't feel like it's you, then you shouldn't do it. And she just wasn't always uncomfortable. So she just was not right in that role. She's iconic, the most beautiful, incredible singer, one of the most incredible singers ever, but she just wasn't suited. And she was, you know, she felt badly for everybody involved. She felt the show was just not strong enough. And it wasn't for her, it wasn't. She hadn't been, she'd done lots of other things, cabaret, other shows. But to go back and be on stage and Broadway in that show, she thought, I can't do it.

[38:47] Jeremy Sturt: Jeremy remembers visiting Barbara in her dressing room before each performance to run over any notes or concerns that she had. And one night, you know, she'd been chatting to me and I said, you're not coming, are you? And she was saying, no, I'm not coming to Broadway. I'm going to see this out and do it, but I'm not doing Broadway. I can't do it because it would be my homecoming and I'm not going to do that. One night, Terry appeared at the dressing room door. Jeremy stood up to leave, but Barbara told him there was no need to go anywhere. Anything Terry had to say could be said in front of her friend, Jeremy. Terry just said, oh, right, it's a pregnant pause kind of thing. He said, well, Jeremy obviously knows this, but I just want to tell you that I think I've sorted it all.

We're going to do this. We're going to do X and Y. He just launched into one. She literally just looked over, put her hand on his arm and said, honey, all you're doing is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

[39:38] Unknown speaker: And with that bombshell, we'll be back after this short break.

[39:42] Audrey Levine: Towards the end of the previews, Audrey Levine was cast as a standby or understudy for the Margaret White role. I was doing a show in a regional theater here and I got a call and I had to go into the city, go back to New York and do this audition. And then I didn't think anything about it. But a week later, they said, OK, you we have to find a replacement for this other show because you're going to Stratford. And it was crazy. It happened like in a week. They were just starting performances when I got there.

[40:19] Audrey Levine: When she arrived in Stratford, she quickly learned about Barbara's unhappiness. She also discovered that the producers had approached a potential replacement, their original first choice for the role, Betty Buckley. Barbara was not happy and they were courting Betty, negotiating, but they hadn't come to an agreement yet. So I basically was chosen because they thought I could bridge the gap between Barbara, who I was probably more like vocally, and Betty, who I was probably more like as an actress. And it was kind of a magical thing. She reached out to me right away and she let me know that she might be leaving.

[41:05] Chris Adams: And you know we became good friends. Um, but you know I just said about starting to learn it and trying to figure out how to do it because it's a hell of a role. For Barbara though, it was a near accident on opening night that was the final deal breaker. Ah, this is the infamous near decapitation. Well, that's been the urban legend circulating for all this time. You see, in the final moments of the show, a giant white staircase descends to the stage as Carrie returns home from the prom covered in the pig's blood. And don't worry, we will be analyzing that memorable moment in much more detail in future episodes. Oh yes, well anyway, the rumor has it that this giant gleaming white staircase descended on opening night in front of the world's critics, clunking the increasingly pissed off Barbara Cook on the head as she waited to go on for her big moment.

Now some even claim to be able to hear the moment of contact in the bootleg recording. I mean, wow. It's not quite true, but the real story does still sound pretty harrowing. So in Carrie, the entire set was deceptively complex with sections rotating and sliding to create the different settings for the story. Yes, it was the biggest at the time, the biggest tech show out there. And at one point, well, Barbara Cook got stuck on stage. Yeah, she got stuck halfway. Like half, she, the set would go from, I guess, the schoolroom to the house. I mean, it was amazing. It like flipped 180 degrees, the back wall. And not only did it flip, but it came forward as well. So as it came forward, it moved and then at like half of it, like towards the front of the stage, it would then transform into the house.

And as it turned and flipped, Barbara Cook was already, um, in the chair waiting to do the scene. And I think it was the scene where Carrie came back from school and everyone had been throwing tampons at her and all that. And um, yeah, and uh, and the set got stuck. So Barbara Cook was mid-stage with the kind of set hovering above her.

[43:15] Holly Morgan: Yeah, well it was a nightmare. And certainly by the time we started performing, there were technical problems that were scary for her and rightly so. Um, it was like, you know what, this is not for me. Now, normal procedure with a production like this is that these kinds of issues get ironed out in the tech rehearsals and the previews. Carrie, however, had been faced with so many technical problems that the preview period had been substantially shortened. Normally a new musical would preview for two or three weeks before an official opening night for critics. Carrie had just three shows before the world's press descended with sharp pencils at the ready. Peter McIntosh is now a successful theatre set designer, but back in 1988, he was a student at nearby Warwick University.

[44:03] Peter McIntosh: I wrote, I was at Warwick University. I wrote to Terry Hands and said, because it was the RSC, so I wrote and said could I come and just see some stuff. And he said, well, we're not doing any Shakespeare at the moment, so we're doing this musical. And I was like, oh no Shakespeare, fine. What did I know? So, and he said, but I will be busy. We'll be busy. So really all I'm saying is you can come and sit at the back of the stalls for a week. So I did, and I barely, I don't think I spoke to anybody really. I didn't meet anyone, um, and I just watched this thing unfold. Watching just a week of the show's tech rehearsal, Peter got a sense that things weren't quite going to plan.

[44:40] Peter McIntosh: So within the week, I saw many, many surprising things happen. And I think to be fair, none of these things are unusual in tech. Things go wrong all the time and you know, that's what techs are about. They are ways of solving problems. So although they came as a surprise to me, I now know in later life that any one of these things could have gone wrong in any one of my shows and possibly have. But the culmination of all of them in the week seems to be, um, seem to be quite a lot to contend with. The Barbara Cook incident on opening night didn't go unnoticed. The Chicago Tribune summed things up nicely in its review, writing quote, the opening night was marred by technical mishaps, including at one point a wall panel that looked as if it might rest on top of Cook.

By this point, Terry was expecting reviews to be poor. He was less concerned by the technical issues knowing that these would be ironed out with time and more worried that the story was still unclear thanks to the now convoluted plot. Audiences had even been laughing at some of the more ridiculous moments. In one interview, Terry said he knew it would be quote deservedly drubbed.

[46:04] Chris Adams: As the critics filed out of the building, the cast headed to a low-key drinks reception which had been set up in the rehearsal rooms. Suddenly their quiet chats about the show's shaky reaction were interrupted by loud bangs in the quiet night sky over Stratford, and excited Fritz Kurtz ushered everyone over to the windows which looked over the town's public sports fields.

[46:21] Simon Opie: And I was standing next to Simon Opie, who was the production manager, wondering what was going to happen when all of a sudden, in Simon's words, um, he went, oh my god, he's not only, he's lit up the whole of the playing fields. And suddenly these fireworks went just went off, enormous fireworks went off, uh, which went on for about a good 10-15 minutes, which were pretty stunning but right across the playing fields. And at the end of it, lit up, um, fireworks lit up in words Carrie, um, congratulations Carrie on the playing fields. And I was like, wow, they have some money. I mean, this producer, he did that. I mean, he's literally setting fire to the budget.

[47:02] Chris Adams: It was certainly an extravagant display, and for a few moments, the Carrie company was distracted from the impending critical savaging. And as they died away, all you could see in the background coming towards the playing fields were two blue lights flashing, so somebody had obviously woken up the police because they must have thought it was World War II again or something. Anyway, crazy, crazy fireworks. Uh, next day you could see the amount of damage that the fireworks had done to the playing fields, which of course Fritz had to pay for. And if that's not a big enough metaphor for Carrie's story so far, I don't know what is.

[47:37] Holly Morgan: What you mean, thousands of pounds thrown at something to pull focus from the problem only to end up causing loads more damage than they started with? It's immaculate. It's perfect. It's more effective than a sledgehammer.

[47:47] Chris Adams: So the morning after opening night and with Fritz and the RSC trying to repair relations with the local authorities, the reviews arrived. Oh, and they were not kind. Just to mix things up a bit, we thought we'd bring in a friend, actor Bryce Stratford, to provide the unique voice of the 80s British press.

[48:04] Bryce Stratford: All right, okay, so hi there, I'm Bryce Stratford and I'm going to play the part of the British press.

[48:22] Bryce Stratford: While the Financial Times said it was enjoyable in a masochistic way, the Sunday Times thought it was bilge. The Guardian said it was a resounding mistake. What next, asked the Sunday Times, apparently horrified by the themes of the show. Perhaps a really adult musical based on the King's Cross disaster or one called the Gaza Strip with the burying alive of four Palestinians as its big number.

[49:05] Chris Adams: Oh my god, I know. The Telegraph was not keen on the choreography. One quickly tires of the ubiquitous pelvic thrusts and simulated copulation, a tragedy of wasted effort and directorial hubris. It is sad to see the company prostituting its good name in this way. The Evening Standard chimed in with, I have seen better movement at a jumble sale.

[49:12] Holly Morgan: Do things move quickly in a jumble sale? A jumble sale for our American listeners, it's like a yard sale, I guess.

[49:19] Bryce Stratford: In Punch magazine, the critic Sheridan Morley swung a blow at Terry Hands. We are left wondering why a director with the taste and intelligence and courage of Terry Hands should have devoted so much time and rehearsal effort to the kind of airport bookstore shocker that teenagers throw away with their hamburger cartons and their empty drink cans.

[49:40] Chris Adams: He's an angry man, isn't he? He's an angry man who doesn't like Americans, I think. The special effects and the climactic finale were particularly raked through the mud. Carrie's special powers are suggested by a couple of conjuring tricks which would seem dull at an end of peer variety show, said the Telegraph, while the Evening Standard wrote the scene of her vengeance at the high school prom simply looks as if the girls and boys have fallen dead drunk at the disco.

[50:05] Holly Morgan: However, the critics did agree on one thing: Lindsay Haitley's triumphant performance as Carrie. The Chicago Tribune sent a reviewer, and praise for the show's young lead was flowing. Already one Tony nomination appears guaranteed as the character Carrie, an adolescent wallflower cursed with telekinetic powers she barely comprehends, 17-year-old Haitley, billed in the program as the RSC's youngest ever leading lady, is a genuine find.

[50:27] Chris Adams: The male who had otherwise dismissed the show as a mess went on to say, I hope sincerely that Broadway takes Miss Haitley to its heart. Mark Shenton was a cub reporter writing for various titles in London.

[50:40] Mark Shenton: I mean, I remember the first time at Stratford thinking this show is bonkers. It really is bonkers. But I remember thinking just how powerful the show was at one level and how completely stupid it was in another. The bits between Margaret White and her daughter Carrie are, it's a marvellous musical. Those bits are really powerful and convincing, and then there's the other half of the show which is very son of fame and not surprising given who wrote the show, which was the sort of high school musical set about bullying at high school.

[51:15] Holly Morgan: Some of the cast thought the critics were looking for any excuse to trash the show. One of the comments bearing in mind that not one of us was over the girls anyways and from England, not one of us was over the age of like 23, and they made, so there was one critique said something like, um, and where did they get all these middle-aged women trying to play girls dancing? And we were like, um, I'm 20, I'm 20, she's 21, she's 22. They said all these middle-aged women.

[51:45] Chris Adams: Terry welcomed the positive reaction to the Carrie and Margaret scenes he'd placed so much focus on. He continued trimming the book, that's the spoken scenes of the musical, cutting out anything that had got an inadvertent laugh from the audience. He was so protective of Lindsay, who was just a child and a brilliant child, but anytime something got a laugh, he wanted to cut it because he didn't want people to laugh at her. He was like protecting her, and the more humour that came out of it, the more dangerous it became, and this is just my interpretation.

[52:20] Holly Morgan: As the run progressed, so did tweaks and changes to the script and score. The cast would rehearse often after eight hours in the day, incorporating changes into the evening's performance. Each bootleg recording of Carrie that exists really is one of a kind. No performance was ever the same. The script and the song lyrics were constantly changing in an attempt to improve the show. Barbara's suggestion that this was a bit like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic seems prophetic.

[52:51] Chris Adams: Terry was constantly making small changes while ignoring the fundamental problems which were preventing the show from coming together as a cohesive whole. His continued cuts to the scenes meant that their starkness was highlighted even further, and in complete contrast, the dance numbers continued to play out in their full unrestrained glory. Terry's non-naturalistic avant-garde approach had baffled those audience members expecting to see an all-American high school horror on stage. The fears of the writers that his vision was too complex and abstract were founded, and critics had been appalled by the muddy convoluted plot, tasteless songs, and bland lyrics, not to mention the lingering snobbery around the hallowed RSC stage being used as a testing ground for a big bucks Broadway transfer. And on top of everything, one of the leading ladies was busy packing her bags.

[53:34] Holly Morgan: But here's the thing about those awful reviews of the show: by all accounts, the actual audience members in Stratford really enjoyed the show. I mean, sure there was an overall sense of confusion.

[53:48] Chris Adams: Well, I remember in Stratford, what I remember is kind of incredulity is the main response that people were sort of watching with their mouths agape, a bit like springtime for Hitler, you know, in the producers. Our opening night, I mean, there was some applause going on, but I think by and large, the British audience was going, what the fuck am I watching?

[54:08] Holly Morgan: But despite the chaos on stage, Carrie was a hot ticket. The combination of famous names in the cast and the chance to see the world premiere of a new musical meant that in its limited run, performances quickly sold out. But the audience was not a typical RSC one. David Brierley, an actor turned general manager at the RSC, later told the Telegraph magazine it was a Midlands non-Shakespearean audience, and we had full houses every night. It was terrific to have offered something which made the connection between them and us, and we probably had a bigger and more favourable postbag about Carrie than about anything we've done for Donkey's years. It's the most extraordinary example of something on which the critics and the public were simply poles apart.

[54:47] Dean Pitchford: But it's even then it was confusing because you there was this whole set of people that were it was getting a name for itself as being this crazy wacky, you know, so even that was kind of confusing because there were a lot of people loved it, you know, and more bloody through around the more they loved it. So, you know, I mean, it was like the worst bits that for the for the real audience, I don't know, like for the, you know, the establishment or for your critics and all of that. It's like the worse it got for them, the better it got for everyone else, you know.

[55:19] Dean Pitchford remembers the audience reaction. Well, the audience reaction in Stratford was very enthusiastic. We had the star, one of the stars of the motion picture and the television show and the Kids from Fame tours, Jean Anthony Ray, was starring in the show. And then we had a Broadway legend, Barbara Cook. And we were not only was it all right there in front of you, but it was there in front of you in Stratford. And it was like these people had it was like they all agreed to schlep out to the countryside. And the crowds, the crowds came from all over the country to see it. And they it was a very, it was it was sold out immediately. It was a very hot ticket. And the crowds were crazy for it.

So each house was filled with a heady mixture of locals looking for a good night out and curious theatre obsessives who had flopped from London to the Midlands to witness the spectacle they had heard about on the grapevine. The theatre queens, you can say it. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. But for the writers, still convinced that their precious script had been hacked to death and badly staged, the mixture of polite applause and gleeful cheering was not necessarily a good thing. In fact, if anything, it was dissuading Terry from realising that the show needed a major rethink if it was to succeed on Broadway. For me and my collaborators, we stood in the back of the audience going, No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you're sending all the wrong signals.

Because, you know, I have been in I've been in the business long enough to I've seen friends of mine who are creators and writers of shows. And in America, there are cities that you know, you can go to if you are previewing a show. There are cities that you know, you can go to like Boston, where you get feedback on this about on par with what you're going to get in New York. So that's a smart city to preview in because then you get helpful input. But New York and Boston were very, very far away from Stratford upon Avon. It might have been had we known that we were going to go from Stratford to London, maybe that input would have been a value to us. But we weren't going to go from Stratford, we were going to go from Stratford to New York City.

And we were not getting the feedback that could use we could use with a New York audience. Dean and the team were dismayed by the show they saw in front of them and begged Terry to think twice about the Broadway transfer without some substantial changes. But by the end of the run, it's almost like Terry and Debbie had entirely dismissed the critical reviews as pure snobbery and had been blindsided by the reaction from the crowds. And we would come to them with our notes. And could you please take a look at this moment? Could we could we please get in there and rewrite this section? And they go No, you hear the audiences. They're loving it. Are you kidding? Don't fix what's not broken. And so it was a very it was it was painful for us to because once the show started playing and playing as well as it did, we lost any leverage for getting our changes into the show.

And through all of this, Terry had been keeping Barbara Cooke's imminent departure to himself. One morning picking up a paper, Dean and the writers got quite a surprise. Well, it happened in Stratford, actually, that we, we did not know that she had spoken to a columnist in London, Baz Vamengoy. And she she gave him the he had he I guess he had interviewed her over the years, you know, and whenever she was in London doing things, and she let slip in a phone conversation with him. And we all read about it. Yeah, it was it threw us back, I will tell you, and set back the producer as well.

[59:30] Dean Pitchford: Terry declared that he wasn't worried about Barbara's departure, and that he didn't take it personally. He stressed his admiration for Cooke in an interview and saying, quote, it was clear that the part wasn't going to exhibit her soprano legato voice and her ability to break one's heart. He said that they parted on good terms, though Fritz Kurtz was less impressed. I read about her decision in the press about 10 days before the end of the run, he told a reporter, she could have potentially jeopardised the show. Terry said he didn't inform Fritz earlier, because he didn't want to, quote, unduly add more pressure on his end than there already was. But before long, the four week run in Stratford was over.

And despite all odds, Barbara Cooke had stuck it out to the end. And so all of a sudden, we left Stratford Pornhavon, and all of a sudden, Barbara's not with the show anymore. And she's remembered fondly. Well, you know, she's, I, I thought she was powerful. The songs that she did were beautiful. She was, she cared about, you know, so many of the performers, you know, the guys and the gals and everybody. I would say Barbara Cooke was possibly someone who bonded us unintentionally, but she was so warm to everybody, that she made the British and the Americans all feel equal. But you know, there was this, it was a nice close relationship. Barbara returned to New York, but she never saw the show performed on Broadway.

I remember she was invited to go to the opening, I think, and walk the carpet. But she had a conflict. I don't remember if she had a show or what, but she couldn't do that. I think was going to go later. And I can't remember if she went later or not. The cast did reunite with her. Stage manager Joe Lorden organized an afternoon tea at his apartment. And the company spent an apparently raucous few hours going over the ups and downs of their time together in England. Do you think Terry was invited? Probably gonna say no. Any other show beset by scathing reviews, major technical problems, tensions within the team, and the loss of a leading actor might normally have closed quietly, fading into relative obscurity.

Just another entry in the book of musical theatre flops, rather than the inspiration for the title of one. But not Carrie. Carrie White had made her way from novel to the big screen to the stage. In Carrie the musical lore, a lot of focus is placed on the infamously short Broadway run. But understanding this tumultuous chapter in Stratford is essential in seeing why the show failed in the long run. But when it comes to the involvement of the Royal Shakespeare Company, not everything was a loss. In Stratford, Carrie was a sellout, and the company recovered its own financial investments and even made a small profit. In Stratford, it broke box office records. It made more money in Stratford than anything had in a very, very long time.

So again, even though the reviews were mixed, it was a good indication that actually maybe this, you know, would be a good show. In theory, thanks to its commercial partnership with Friedrich Kurtz, it was all set to make a nice profit, or at least not lose any money, if the show did well on Broadway. The British press had ripped it to shreds in reviews, but it could be said they've been out for blood for Carrie from the start. So I did that thing where we mentioned the name of the podcast. I did it earlier anyway, did you not notice? No, I did, I'm just keeping score. Anyway, despite the bad reviews and the onstage chaos, you can see why that transfer seemed an appealing prospect, or at least why it wasn't immediately written off.

It wasn't the proper trajectory that one would go about creating a musical. They just, you know, they had all the marquee value, they had all the money, and they just went, we're going straight to Broadway, which is what you don't do. That is what you don't do. A huge investment had been made in a show that was technically complex. A talented cast had been rehearsed to within an inch of its life, and the show had been pressed and pulled in all possible directions. Sure, the leading lady had gone, but negotiations were concluding with Betty Buckley, a major Broadway name. In fact, publicly, Terry was so confident that he even started telling people he was sure that Lindsay and Betty could be frontrunners for Tony Awards.

Friedrich Kurtz was also positive, or at least putting a brave face on. He told a newspaper, the performances have got better and better. We've improved the special effects, changed some costumes, added scenes that make the plot clearer, and have improved the orchestrations and the sound so you can understand the lyrics. So that's like a list of standard musical theatre stuff. Not too much to expect, there was no turning back. You know, when we were in Stratford, um, we did the show and we, and, and we got terrible reviews, you know, um, and I remember, you know, thinking, oh, we're gonna go to New York, is that gonna happen? And then suddenly, it was like, suddenly was like, absolutely, we're going to New York.

And of course, with a few weeks until the show reopened in New York, there was plenty of time for Terry, Debbie, and the writers to sit down and discuss how they could revamp the show, right? I think we all know the answer to that question. The American cast members prepared to go home. The Brits look forward to a potential year-long contract on the Great White Way. Broadway was beckoning. And so it was time for Carrie, this strange little British-American hybrid, to pack her bags and head to the Big Apple. With a few tweaks, could Carrie be saved? Would Americans receive it more warmly than those stuck up Brits? Could it actually be made good? Meanwhile, on the other side of the Atlantic, rumours were swirling about this brand-new musical, played with problems and savaged by the press.

For those fascinated by theatrical flops, it would be a must-see. What could possibly go wrong? Next time, on Out For Blood. The lights went out, and there was a mixture of boos and cheers, and it was just like, what the fuck is going on? You know, is this, do they like us? Do they hate us? What is it? It felt like being in an old MGM film. We were all at the opening night party, and somebody literally came in with a pile of New York Times, and they got given out, and we all flipped through, and then, you know, and then the penny dropped because of the opening title and the opening sentence, you know. Hugs and kisses and lots and lots of love flowed between him and the cast. They went on to do their show.

He got into a limo, and he went to the airport, and on the way, he called his company manager, and he told them to close all the accounts. The word comes down, everybody has to be called and told, get out of your apartment, pack your bags, go back to England. And we tracked down the audience members who actually saw the show and lived to tell the tale. Obviously, there was gossip from Stratford. Hello, I was there for the first preview in the third row. I know exactly where I sat. I saw the Broadway version, I'm going to say, at least five times. You know, it's probably 8.15 or 8.20 by now, and people are getting kind of restless. They're all dancing around, you know, in a pig frenzy, pig blood frenzy, and then at one point, it all stops cold, and he looks down and goes, shit, look at all them pigs.

The whole house started to giggle. I don't think that's what they meant us to do. We're expecting, obviously, something really spectacular to happen, because it's the highlight of the movie. Everybody knows it's going to happen. And he, as you know, just walks up to her and slowly just dumps a thing on her head. Plus, coming up, we'll be going through the show song by song, scene by scene, discovering what made Carrie so memorable. So make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss any of the action. Out For Blood is a proud member of the Broadway Podcast Network. For more information about us and the podcast, please visit us online at bpn.fm slash Out For Blood. And if you've enjoyed Out For Blood, please leave us a review on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you download it from.

And if you're a fan of Carrie, we've been posting tons of behind the scenes photos, videos, and more on our socials. Find us at Out For Blood Podcast on Instagram and Facebook, and Out For Blood Pod on Twitter. Out For Blood was hosted and produced by me, Holly Morgan.

[1:07:46] Chris Adams: And me, Chris Adams.

[1:07:48] Holly Morgan: Sound engineering and editing by Tom Moores. Paddy Jervis is our audio consultant. Original music by Odin Orn-Hilmarsson, and artwork by Rebecca Pitts. Thanks this week to Dean Pitchford, Lindsay Haitley, Sallyann Triplett, Charlotte D'Amboise, Georgia Otterson, Michelle DeVernay, Shelley Hodgson, Suzanne Thomas, Joey McNeely, Kenny Linden, Eric Gilliam, Michelle Nelson-Mann, Audrey Levine, Jeremy Sturt, and Mark Shenton. Thanks also to a couple of fact checkers for our episodes on the show in Stratford and on Broadway, two big Carrie fans, Drew Eldridge and Logan Tyler. And don't forget to subscribe. See you next week. Oh, uh, Tom?

[1:08:20] Tom Moores: What?

[1:08:23] Holly Morgan: We can see your dirty pillows.

[1:08:25] Tom Moores: I hate this show.