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[0:00] Brian Sedita: Hey everyone, welcome to Page to Stage. A conversation with theater makers. We're your hosts. That's Brian. And that's Mary. Join us as we focus the spotlight back on the theater maker to uncover their process. We speak with folks in the industry that often aren't heard from, such as stage managers, producers, crew members, marketing professionals, and everything in between. We hope you enjoy this episode.

[0:26] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: Hi, I'm Adrienne Campbell-Holt. I'm a freelance director and an artistic director, and I use she/her pronouns. Welcome. Thank you for joining us. I just wanted to actually start off by saying that I am so bummed that I literally blinked and Other World had left Delaware Theater Company because I am currently in Delaware and that I knew that was at Bucks County right before the pandemic and then shifted to Delaware. And so I was like, right, like I can still actually go see it; it's even closer now. And I blinked and it was gone. So I'm bummed, but I'm thrilled to be able to talk to you this evening about your process a little bit.

[1:03] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: Yeah. Um, creating and helming that show has been such a journey. Uh, we, as you mentioned, we, uh, March 14th, 2020 was to be our first public performance of Other World, and that day never came back in 2020. And so we really like used the time like so many theater makers. Um, we continued meeting at least once a week for the entire 23 months that we were paused. Um, and the designers and I would meet once a week, the writers and I would meet, the choreographer, and you know, kept making the show stronger and stronger, so it felt so fulfilling to finally be in a rehearsal. Um, we rehearsed the show in New York City for four weeks, um, and this was the world premiere of this musical which is, uh, by the book is by Hunter Bell and the music and lyrics are by Ann McNamee and Jeff Bowen.

The choreography is by Karla Puno Garcia. Um, and it's a super ambitious new musical I would say even much more than most new musicals are. Um, this story intersects with the gaming world and as a result, you know, we are world building on stage. Um, and there are avatars and um, NPC, uh, non-player characters, um, and we are, you know, we meet some humans who are sort of dropped into the video game um, and have, I imagine the technical aspect was immense, quite technical, yeah. Um, yeah, we really have like an incredible design team including, um, puppeteers and puppet choreographers at Justin Walsh and uh, our video designer is Lucy McKinnon, our costume designer is Tilly Grimes, um, our scenic designer Mary Hamrick, um, you know, really like creating this environment.

Um, when there's no reference and it's not based on a movie, uh, you know, this is all original. Um, and it's, it's sort of like the sky's the limit, um, and your imagination is the limit, uh, for what this world might look and feel like.

[3:37] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: So it was, uh, you know, my husband was sort of, you know, especially because of the pandemic, he got access, he got to hear much more of the design process and the um, collaboration between director, choreographer, and writers uh than he normally would have because of our one and a half bedroom apartment being the center of the action. I can't imagine directing a more challenging show. Um, and so I'm so proud that we finally like did get to share it with audiences and we learned so much in the process. Um, it's a cast of 21, which honestly, uh, one of the actors on the first day of rehearsal walked into the rehearsal room and said, "Oh, this actually looks like a New York City subway car." And I like couldn't be more proud of that fact, that observation, um, because it really does.

Uh, our cast really represented like an incredible range of humans and talents and bodies, and I think like centering stories that haven't been centered before, especially in musical theater, has been uh super, super meaningful to me.

[4:53] Brian Sedita: Just for some context for our listeners, can you give, I know you mentioned it was uh loosely about the gaming world. Can you give like a brief, like short summary of the musical?

[5:05] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: Yes, I will do my best. I like to rely on my uh sort of visual pitch decks. Um, but yes, the spiel is essentially, um, Sri and Lorraine are two humans, and uh they are unexpectedly transported into Sri's favorite video game, which is called Other World. And uh once they're inside of the game, they're sort of racing against the clock, and they have to work together and connect with other gamers who've uh who Sri has uh sort of worked closely with in the past to uh to find their way out. And it's, you know, it's very much like a piece that is about found family and um the connections we make on and offline and uh how using our independence and our unique gifts and perspectives is like the we are more than the sum of our parts.

[6:06] Brian Sedita: When a director takes on a piece, uh especially like something, at least for me, if I was to direct something or work on something about gaming, my first thing would be, well, I'm not really familiar with the gaming world. Is that something you were familiar with going into this?

[6:21] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: So, you know, Hunter Bell loves to kind of point out that even people who are playing Wordle on their phone or uh, you know, playing like Angry Birds, like those are games too. Um, and I, my um sort of early experiences with gaming were much more in the like computer programming, like Oregon Trail, um kind of, you know, certainly like Super Mario, like old school games. And because I have a uh a much younger brother, um, you know, he's like 17 years younger than me. I think, and I have, you know, young cousins and friends, I was really fascinated by the things that the next generation was sort of becoming obsessed with and kind of um engaging with in ways that my generation had not. You know, I think it's really mystifying to like watch um gamers use headsets to communicate with other gamers who are uh who they've never met, IRL, uh in real life, and they are, they have this sense of community um because they're in this like shared pursuit of um some mission or objective, um, and they obviously have like a shared passion for this game, um, and they might spend hours at a time like communicating in sort of like parallel play.

And it's just sort of like a foreign language to me. And I think actually my um almost like outsider status as a non-gamer really helped me give the non-gamers in the audience like a way in. Um, one of one of the primary characters in the story is a non-gamer, and so there's that like surrogate for the audience. Um, you know, I think I was also like able to kind of do my homework and really dive deep into uh a like wide range of games and like pull from different games like what was going to serve our particular story well, and also um what really excited me most visually or like sonically um and, you know, feel kind of uh uncomplicated about like borrowing all my favorite things from other games.

[9:02] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: So with new work where you don't really have anything or original work where you don't have anything to base it off of, you're really creating it from the ground up, the world, the characters, the lines that are being spoken or sung, and then also mix with a topic where you might not be familiar with, like gaming, where it might involve require you to do some more research beforehand. Do you find that process freeing because you know the sky's the limit? Or is it very intimidating to the fact of like you're not sure like what step is in the right direction?

[9:36] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: Sure, sure. So I do um primarily direct new work and world premieres, and I feel super inspired and kind of energized by um that collaboration with the writers and creating that language and the visual landscape for the shows for the first time. And in this case, yeah, I mean, the um, the amount of collaboration interdepartmentally to find a cohesive aesthetic that like felt like it was made by, in this case, like two of the characters who are in our show were the game creators. So like this world has to look like it was made by like two hands and not 30. Um, so we actually had a workshop back in May 2021 that we called our materials workshop, where we were really focused on like finding the aesthetic and what like actual like fabrics and textures and lighting um instruments and um, uh, you know, atmospheric and uh effects and uh scenic surfaces and textiles and all of those things like would cohere in a s in a theater which is so much harder than like if we were working digitally or in film and we would be applying filters to things like how do we like sort of do that for the audience. Um, so it at times it was daunting, um, but I also find myself like most excited by that finding the common language for the first time with my team.

[10:26] Brian Sedita: I love to hear the director like kind of hear from the director specifically on what goes through their mind when creating a world because it really, I mean, I obviously it comes from a collaboration especially with the writers, but I often feel like the directors really have like a vision that's built under something. So that's awesome.

[11:48] Brian Sedita: So speaking of um writers and your relationship with the writers, um, I know that you're working out in Seattle right now on a new musical, um, so we could talk about that one as well since you're in, you know, a more of a current process with that. Or we could talk about Other World as well. But I'm curious with your relationship with the writers, especially since most of all of the work that you do is on new original work, what's that process like in shaping the world, shaping the characters? What's that like in the earlier days?

[12:20] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: You know, I find each process pretty distinct and that has a lot to do with the personalities and sort of like styles of the writers involved. I appreciate even sort of for my own life like having a variety of people I'm working closely with that, you know, if one writer is like a little more intense and maybe requires more time and sort of energy, then it's helpful if a writer on a different project is a little lower main in terms of the engagement. And I find on musicals especially because there are so many more collaborators versus plays in some ways it takes some of the pressure off the director to, you know, even in a rehearsal process like when you're directing a new play it's always you who's in charge and the reality of that as someone like trying to balance work and life it's sometimes exhausting to be like kind of managing people and uh it can be difficult to even like find time to sort of like review sound cues or review um fitting photos or review uh kind of seating arrangements or you know things from a uh any of the designers etc whereas in a new musical um because the music director has, you know, requires time where they're in charge of making sure that the cast is learning their music and um sort of talking through all of that and the choreographer needs time.

[14:04] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: In some ways there's almost like a three-headed balance of power and that's something that can be really helpful when the project is so large in scope that you know I have hundreds of emails every day to just respond to and sort of decisions that need to be made.

[14:23] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: And I can go do a shop visit because I trust that the time in rehearsal will be used efficiently.

[14:33] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: And I guess in terms of my collaboration with playwrights, I really do love working with people over and over again just because the kind of trust and shared appreciation of artistic values that you build over time is so rewarding.

[14:57] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: And you know one playwright who I worked with more often earlier in my career, but I really love so much and hope to work with again soon is the playwright Steven Levinson who, of course, wrote Dear Evan Hansen. He wrote the first play that Colt Coeur produced, which we created together as a company, called Seven Minutes in Heaven. He and I, partly due to the realities of our lives as younger folks, like we would have the luxury of seeing a lot of theater and art together and being able to talk about it and talk about what moved us and excited us and what we didn't care for, and artists that we wanted to work with and that we wanted to create work for. And that helps so much and makes it so much more fun that you really then feel like you're just hanging out with your friends, which is what we all want to do, right?

I love that kind of tidbit that you shared of going to see theater with people that either you want to collaborate with or are collaborating with because those conversations present themselves, whereas it might not present itself in other scenarios where you're maybe not seeing theater together.

[16:19] Brian Sedita: I love that. Do you think that that informs the way that you guys work together?

[16:22] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: Oh, enormously. What are the trends in that kind of stuff when you go see somebody with a fellow theater maker? Does it spark ideas based on your conversations after you've seen the play and your debriefing about what you just saw? And then you're like, oh my gosh, I'm interested in that topic and I really like this design element that kind of storytelling and picture really draws me in.

[16:49] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: Exactly, that's exactly what happens. I think when you are getting jazzed by the same material and know that you have taste and where that taste intersects, it really helps you find a shorthand even in the rehearsal process or even before rehearsals in the development of a script. To say, like, you know, one of the writers I'm working with right now is Natalie Margolin, who's a playwright and actor, and we just have this running document where we are sharing things that are piquing our interest or curiosity. Sometimes it might be like a 10-second sequence of a television series or a song or even a podcast or an article. Just knowing that something about that was exciting to the other person helps us get to know each other as artists and as humans and gives us lots of ideas for things that we can explore in this play that we're making together.

[17:58] Brian Sedita: And do you like having the writer in the room while you're directing or would you rather pick and choose when you have them there?

[18:05] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: It depends on their energy. I mean, different playwrights bring different energies. So I fully appreciate having them in the room at least some of the time. I think it's really difficult for them to be patient during tech. So I think it's a hard time to have them there. I find it super helpful to kind of prepare the playwright for the process and my approach and kind of preemptively let them know what kinds of feedback I welcome at which points. Helping them trust that I will be very excited to hear their feedback at a later date usually gives them enough confidence in knowing that they will be heard.

[19:04] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: And also takes some of the pressure off them to not worry that they have to love the thing at that moment. I find it honestly super helpful that many of the playwrights that I am fortunate to work with, they either have seen and enjoyed my work in the past and they have respect for me as a director, or they are someone who are purposefully working with a director that they haven't worked with before and they're really trying to push themselves stylistically. So they have really, I think in those cases, appreciated the fact that our tastes are slightly different and that this may be an opportunity for their work to turn out differently because my vision may be a little bit different than their original or sort of like hit vision historically.

[20:23] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: So it's quite literally like trusting the process on both sides. I mean, there's a lot of trust that goes around in collaborations, but yes, that's so interesting. It's so cool how different playwrights bring so much of themselves to the work in the room, and I feel like I'm constantly learning and growing and evolving because of the collaborators that I'm lucky enough to share space with.

[20:52] Brian Sedita: So how are you meeting new writers? I know you have your theater company, which I'm sure you're meeting lots of new artists that way, but are there other ways that you're networking and meeting new writers, new collaborators?

[21:05] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: Yes, you know, to be honest, the sort of balance of my life has shifted a little bit in the last, I mean, pandemic aside, in the last few years as I've had young children and my availability to go and kind of seek out readings and workshops and evenings at the theater have been reduced. I've had to be much more efficient in terms of the time I'm spending getting to know new people, but I do think that it's a real priority of mine, especially as a director of new work and an artistic director. I feel like it's a huge part of my job to be familiar with the young crop of playwrights and the playwrights who we're learning about because they have a workshop that's happening in a grad school or happening in some city in America that people are talking about.

Things like Twitter or features in various theater publications definitely turn me on to people, to artists sometimes, and I tend to really try to follow who are the resident playwrights and directors at the companies that are also interested in supporting the emerging artists. You know, companies like Clubbed Thumb, P73, Arsnova. I feel like we all take turns introducing each other to cool writers and directors.

[22:53] Brian Sedita: That's great. I also think that's a good tip for all of our listeners out there because I know networking is always something that comes up in our conversations with guests here on the podcast. I think especially the pandemic and everything that shifted everyone's mindset of what it means to network and how we network. Not even just speaking virtually or in person, but I mean a little bit more in depth. But like, how do we balance our work life? How do we fit that in now? Because we've all kind of had this shift in mentality of priorities, quite honestly. So thank you for sharing that.

[23:25] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: I wanted to just talk about this because I read this on your website. So I'm curious, you've had quite a unique privilege in shadowing many notable directors in theater and in TV. I think my favorite piece that I read was how you were Ellen Pompeo's stand-in for season one of Gray's Anatomy. I'm sure through that experience you had the opportunity to just observe all of the directors come through week after week and see the work that they're doing. Is that something that you utilize in your own work now? Are you encouraging young emerging theater makers, directors or otherwise, to shadow you? Do you think it's a good way for young people to learn and kind of build their own process in directing?

[24:12] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: Definitely. Yes, I think the art industry and art form are extremely well served by the people who are coming up getting to spend time as a fly on the wall in this process. Personally, I always have an assistant director or an associate director. I didn't go to grad school. I spent basically a year being an assistant and an associate and actually sleeping on people's couches in order to make that feasible financially, which was a real adventure. But I learned so much and I kind of feel like that was my grad school, and I'm extremely grateful to the directors who I got to work with during that time: Annie Kaufman, Jack O'Brien, Michael Grife, Alex Timbers. I feel like that is my paying it forward now, to be a mentor.

[25:20] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: And frankly the emerging directors who have, you know, sat next to me have like offered me such great insight and like warmth and have brought incredible intellect to the processes, and I've been so impressed with them.

[25:38] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: And I think that sometimes people think that networking or kind of like being in that role asks of you like a kind of confidence or, you know, like you should be like schmoozing people or, you know, talking and imparting your wisdom. And I think one of the things that I really felt like I honed at Gray's Anatomy is actually sometimes being silent allows you to truly be a sponge and it allows you to be present. Sometimes when, if you were maybe a little bit louder of a presence, people would stop talking around you.

[26:32] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: But by actually having a low profile, you really get to kind of truly have that fly on the wall quality. And honestly, sometimes like young theater directors who really want to assert who they are, like that is just like not what a room needs because there are already so many cooks in the kitchen and personalities in theater, and it's really valuable to trust that, you know, your presence is appreciated, but like you don't need to necessarily take up a lot of space or air in the room.

[27:16] Brian Sedita: Do you find yourself emulating any of the directors that you've worked with in an associate capacity or assisting? And how do you pick and choose really what you might borrow from those artists?

[27:28] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: I admire those artists so much and I think about them, you know, frequently, and I love them as humans too. And they're all like friends that I stay in touch with. And I also think like I'm very different than each of them. I mean, one thing that I was thinking about a few weeks ago was about how I assisted Annie Kop in 2008 and nine. So I was a much younger person then, and she was a younger person, and I was so struck at that time by her comfort in or how comfortable she was like admitting that she didn't know or she didn't have an answer yet. And I've enjoyed accepting that in my own rehearsal rooms.

[28:18] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: I think when you're earlier in your career, you're sort of almost like self-conscious about not having the answer. So you're like, I must have the answer, I shall have the answer. And in fact, there's like great wisdom in acknowledging that you know you don't know and the answer will come, but it's not there yet. And I think about how Jack O'Brien is so brilliant as an orator, and you know, his speeches that he gives like on the first day or on the opening night are legendary. And I just try to like bring like a tiny fraction of his wit to my remarks on the meet and greet on the first day.

[29:09] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: And so, you know, I smile thinking about how he would just be so, he's so com, I mean he should have been president, he could easily have been elected president. And you know, actually one thing I did really learn a great deal from was the way that Alex Timbers kind of creates visual reference decks for designers or I actually, I don't know if he did decks, but I do PowerPoints for every show I'm working on, and I find like presenting them to every member of the team, like including the box office staff and the education department and all of every single person, like does really hopefully help impart my vision for the piece to all of those people.

[30:07] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: And since all of those people are part of like this bringing the show to the audience, it feels extremely important to do that and kind of giving making it show and tell helps kind of, I'm someone who like doesn't love to pontificate. I mean, those people pontificate and has a slightly negative connotation. I mean more like, you know, speak eloquently at length. I love like showing images and showing film clips or, you know, sharing research that also gives people a sense of my take without it only being me talking.

[30:53] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: There are a lot of intangibles, I think, about how people get work in the theater. And I'm just wondering from your perspective, when you're an associate or assisting a director, why do you think that you're brought in to work with them? And I'm sure it's different for every person that you've worked with, but maybe if you have an example that you want to share to kind of answer this if you can.

[31:21] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: Well, I, so the last show that I was an associate on was Dear Evan Hansen, and that production was, you know, Steven was the writer and, you know, a good friend and close collaborator. Michael was the director, another good friend and former, you know, I had been an assistant or an associate for him like 10 years before that almost. And I really like was not doing associate work anymore, but I think that Steven knew that the sensibility of the show would really appeal to me.

[32:00] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: I also recognized that it was like a heavily male team. And I think they were very interested in being sure that there was a female perspective, especially making sure that the kind of language and perspectives of the female characters felt heard and integrated in a balanced way. And you know, I think because I run a downtown theater company, like I have a lot of experience working with actors in sometimes like short processes or, you know, kind of like on new work that may be difficult for any number of reasons.

[32:48] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: So knowing that this was a show that had an extremely young cast, primarily, and that many of them were making their Broadway debuts and on subject matter that was, you know, sometimes really harrowing or vulnerable, I think they trusted me to be a collaborator and like really respect their vision and also like they could trust that I could kind of like represent and reflect back their vision. And I was like selfishly, I was really aware of how that show like didn't necessarily seem like an obvious commercial success when it was produced. And so I was drawn to like getting to know the people who were passionate about making that show a Broadway show because I felt like there was a higher chance that they would be a kind of potential fit for projects of mine down the road where it doesn't necessarily seem like a commercially viable or super hit show.

[34:04] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: And then it was a hit.

[34:07] Brian Sedita: Yes.

[34:07] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: What would you say that your mission statement is as a theater maker or a director?

[34:12] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: My mission is to create a container that holds the playwright and the composer and the designers, that like to be a ship for all of the visions of those artists, and to be sure that it's a ship that feels secure and safe and like held to bring that work forward to an audience and to like kind of steer with clarity and trusting that my vision is that I'm like braiding all of those people's input, but really like honoring the impulse in me so that there is like a real thrust of a single vision.

[35:03] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: And that, you know, I think the ship metaphor feels right because I do take great care around being sure that there's a sense of community with the teams that I'm bringing together, and that we are really like taking care of each other as humans and as artists.

[35:26] Brian Sedita: I love that. What do you say we move into our lightning round?

[35:29] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: Let's do it.

[35:30] Brian Sedita: Okay. What is one thing in the theater industry that confuses you?

[35:34] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: Doing things the same old way they've always been done.

[35:37] Brian Sedita: The theater loves tradition. What are three adjectives that describe your ideal working environment?

[35:42] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: Warm, fun, food.

[35:45] Brian Sedita: Is there something in your process that you find unique to you?

[35:49] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: I think because I was a dancer first, I love to move around and sometimes like walk through the characters' blocking in order to feel more connected and like have more specific ideas.

[36:01] Brian Sedita: Do you have any books or resources that you find helpful to your process?

[36:05] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: I love Anne Bogart's book on directing, that's one of my favorites. I also loved like, you know, Arto's book, Peter Brook's book, all the books that you get to read in college.

[36:19] Brian Sedita: What is one job in the theater industry that you would trade jobs with for one week?

[36:24] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: Lighting designer.

[36:25] Brian Sedita: What is one hobby that you have outside of theater?

[36:28] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: Running.

[36:28] Brian Sedita: And our final question, what is the last great piece of theater that you saw?

[36:32] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: My theater going has been down. But the first thing that comes to mind is The Lehman Trilogy. I loved the design and the staging and the pianist, and so much of that, so many people loved that one.

[36:48] Brian Sedita: Yeah, I think that was a, that was the answer.

[36:51] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: I had problems with it too. There was a lot to love.

[36:54] Brian Sedita: Okay.

[36:55] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: For a director, especially.

[36:56] Brian Sedita: Nice. Well, thank you so much. How can our listeners find you online and your show?

[37:03] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: I'm online at AdrienneCampbellHolt.com. My theater company is ColtCoeur.org, C-O-L-T-C-O-E-U-R.org. Like the heart of a little French horse. I, yeah, come check out Afterwards. We're at the Fifth Avenue Theater. We run April 29th through May 21st.

[37:29] Brian Sedita: Nice. Amazing. Well, thank you.

[37:30] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: Thanks for spending the evening with us.

[37:33] Brian Sedita: Thanks everyone for listening to this episode of Page to Stage. To keep up with us, you can find us on Instagram and Facebook at Page2Stage Podcast. And if you're enjoying these conversations, we would really appreciate it if you could take a couple minutes to rate and review us wherever you're listening to this podcast.

[37:49] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: Until next time.

[37:50] Brian Sedita: That's Brian.

[37:51] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: That's Mary.

[37:52] Brian Sedita: We'll see you later.

[37:53] Adrienne Campbell-Holt: Bye.