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[0:00] Brian Sedita: Hey everyone, welcome to Page to Stage. A conversation with theater makers. We're your hosts. That's Brian. And that's Mary. This episode is part of our series on A Beautiful Noise, the Neil Diamond musical. In this series, we're looking at how certain design elements shape the creative process of a new musical, particularly one based on a true story. We hope you enjoy this episode.

[0:25] Kathy Fabian: Hi, I'm Kathy Fabian, and I am the production props supervisor for A Beautiful Noise. Welcome.

[0:31] Mary Dina: We're very excited because obviously Brian said off air. This is the first time that we're sitting down with someone in the props department for just the general of our podcast. But this is also the first episode that we're recording for our A Beautiful Noise series, which we haven't officially announced to our listeners yet. So we're very excited to sit down with you. Thank you for taking some time out of your afternoon with us.

[0:52] Kathy Fabian: Of course.

[0:53] Mary Dina: A great place to start would just be to clarify for all our listeners, kind of get some loose definitions maybe of what's considered a prop. At least in costumes, they say that if the person's wearing it, it's considered a costume. I'm wondering where the lines are between costumes, set, and props.

[1:11] Kathy Fabian: Yeah, I get asked that a lot, actually. The line between other departments and props is a little bit loose sometimes, actually, but in general, all of the handheld items on stage, which we call hand props, are obviously props. Normally I'm also in charge of all of the decoration on stage and the furniture. In some cases, I also share duties with the costume department if an actor is using, say, a cane or a crutch. Sometimes bags and things that they are carrying might be discussed as props instead of costumes. So there's a lot of interaction with props between all of the different departments. For example, a lamp, which may be chosen by the props department and approved by the set designer, we then also need to interact with the lighting department to see how to power the lamp or how it fits into their schedule in terms of when the lamp is working on stage and what kind of light it's giving out. So but in general, handheld items that the actors use, furniture, set decoration are the main categories.

[2:24] Mary Dina: And then for I guess for A Beautiful Noise specifically with the guitars I imagine you have the added element of obviously sound but also maybe the music department, right? Is there anything with making sure that it's like properly tuned every performance and or if there's any kind of damage to it? Is that something that props would then cover?

[2:44] Kathy Fabian: That's a really good question actually. So in a show like A Beautiful Noise where the main character's goal is to create music with these guitars, the guitars in our show have a guitar tech of one person who is in charge of handing and managing every single guitar that's played. The choosing of them has a lot to do with the history of Neil Diamond and what kind of guitar he actually played, what they looked like, what are the rights to using those guitars, and then there's the added element of decorating the guitars which falls to me. So once all of those elements are decided, the look, the style, the sound the guitar makes, which is decided by the music department and the guitar tech and all of the other people involved in the on-stage music, then it comes down to the final look to see what each of these guitars should look like in the scene.

For example, some of his guitars on stage are meant to kind of accent or complement the costume. So I do a fair amount of bedazzling. Sometimes you have guitars that are being sponsored by certain guitar makers, and there may be times where you need to swap that guitar out for another one if that guitar needs to be, say, painted or look a different way. So the guitar is a really good example of something that is multi-departmental in terms of its managing.

[4:28] Mary Dina: You mentioned rights to use the guitars. So, number one, I'm shocked to hear that just the design of the guitar would require rights. So that's interesting. But also I'm curious, especially when you're using name brand products in shows, are there any rights limitations when you're presenting that on stage? I know that for film and TV, I know that there are right limitations, but how does that work in theater?

[4:55] Kathy Fabian: It's pretty much the same. You do have to be highly aware of name brands, and we do a lot of what's called Greeking, just like they do in film, to sort of alter but still give the flavor of the original. So for example, we have a lot of things that are from the 60s and 70s in the show. If you have a vintage product label that, you know, in the rights world is 60s and 70s is still pretty young. It's not something that you call, you know, public domain, which you can with artwork and things like that that are older. You should, you know, my job is really to be aware and red flag the things for the production's legal department. Like we probably don't want to have a Coca-Cola label sitting in the middle of the desk because it's not a Coca-Cola commercial with Neil Diamond in it.

But those things are very important. And it, you know, that's something that you learn slowly in the industry to be highly aware of. I myself don't go seeking rights to certain products. I mean, it's the same with music. You know, you need to seek rights for music, you need to seek rights for using certain artwork. Sometimes there are photographs of particular stars and things that you need to gain the rights for their usage. So if we needed to have a big poster, say of Neil Diamond, I can't just choose anyone and say, here it is, we need to actually get the rights from those people who produced it or who own it currently.

[6:39] Mary Dina: Was there any sort of obviously Neil Diamond is a real person. The musical is about his life. There are elements where you can in pictures in the photos that have been released, the production photos at least from Boston, you know, looks almost identical to two very specific moments throughout Neil's career. So I'm wondering if there was any, I guess from a creative standpoint, were there any creative liberties that you were able to take with certain props? I know for a fact that the songbook is a prominent prop throughout the show, and I went to go look to see if it was real and I haven't been able to find it online so I was actually wondering if it is real or if it was something that was created specifically for this story.

[7:22] Kathy Fabian: I guess just some context for our listeners. So Mary was able to catch the production up in Boston this summer. I have not seen it so I'm still waiting to see it on Broadway. So that's just where we stand what we've seen and what we've been exposed to so far.

[7:37] Mary Dina: Yeah, the book you are correct there is not such a book and we have a lot of discussions about these things when they come up. Michael Mayer obviously wanted this songbook. It's part of the written script and so we needed to show various versions of maybe other songbooks and kind of conglomerate the look we wanted. We didn't really end up wanting it to be flashy or have a lot of photographs on it. It just wanted to feel like a big iconic volume. The massiveness of it was probably what was most important and then we just wanted it to look classic and simple and not be another character on stage but rather be a representation of the weight of Neil Diamond's career.

[8:36] Kathy Fabian: So yes, we did take liberties with that.

[8:37] Mary Dina: I totally get that though. I mean, yeah, I agree with like not wanting to like I could see how you would not want it to be another character but the energy I think coming from the book without even like purposefully I guess trying to harness such energy I think because there's so much literal weight to it. And you know, I mean just looking at it when it's in the doctor's hands essentially is a really cool moment because it's so massive at least for him on stage it looks so massive. So I actually I'm so curious, you know, after the show opens on Broadway if it'll eventually you know that book will actually be published in any kind of way. That's an interesting I just think the idea of lyrics like the all of the lyrics you know it's like the works of William Shakespeare.

[8:36] Kathy Fabian: Exactly. Well and even now there is going to be a new iteration of the cover of the book in the works spoiler alert.

[8:36] Mary Dina: So I guess just to kind of give some more context to how you're brought on to a show and I guess we could use A Beautiful Noise as an example. How do you typically find work as a props person?

[8:36] Kathy Fabian: Specifically for A Beautiful Noise, most often I myself am brought in by a particular set designer. I have some relationships with some excellent designers which I'm lucky to have, and normally the early conversations start with those folks whose ideas I need to help bring into the three-dimensional. So then there is a process of working with the general manager to understand the budget and the schedule and all of that. But for the most part, most of my work comes through particular set designers, and David Rockwell and his team are people that I've done many shows with, and I really enjoy working with them. It's very fun. We have a great time figuring all of this out, especially the period shows. It's just an excellent process.

[10:49] Mary Dina: And when it comes to building a team, is that a conversation you have with David or and what are the roles that are now reporting to you?

[10:57] Kathy Fabian: So I have usually an associate, then sometimes an assistant. So it's associate props coordinator, assistant props coordinator. They are most often chosen by me and regular people on my team who have also worked with David before. The associate prop supervisor is right with me finding and researching and sourcing, solving all of the problems, communicating with various shops. The assistant prop supervisor is normally in charge of managing rehearsal because the rehearsal process in itself requires an entire set of mock-up props to be worked with in the room. Notes are coming every day from the stage managers saying, you know, could we make this a little lighter? Could this be smaller? We need six more of these and that's where we're building the hand props list is during the production, the rehearsal period.

So the list is growing every day during the, you know, three, four, five weeks of rehearsal and we're augmenting the list, sourcing new items while we're still at the same time trying to outfit the scenic elements that we're responsible for.

[12:20] Kathy Fabian: In particular, A Beautiful Noise has a series of 40 or so hanging lamps in the show that fly in and out independently, which was quite challenging and they're all vintage, you know, from the 50s, 60s, 70s, found items. Real lamps, I don't think we actually built any of them. They are all real antiques and came from all over the world really. So yeah, my team, we have a kind of a well-oiled machine here. Everybody knows how to cover each other and what, you know, I can't be in 10 places at once so I have really great team members who cover and fill in the gaps because it really is, it's a seven-day-a-week project taking a brand new musical from the page to the stage as you say. Because it's all in everyone's imagination, you know, what Michael Mayer was thinking it looked like and what David Rockwell thought it looked like and what I see when I watch Neil Diamond walk into the music office for the first time are three completely separate things and we have to start drawing and finding and layering in research and comparing and then going, oh well that's the right thing but it's gonna look terrible out there. What is gonna tell the story and also work with this world we've created because it's a fairly sparse environment in terms of, you know, interior realism.

[14:13] Kathy Fabian: We all of the furniture pieces, as Mary knows, because she saw, are in space with this beautiful representational background that's transformed by light. So then you have this, you know, kind of the stark realistic desk, you know, and it's like, how do I make that feel okay here? What do I do to blend it, but also allow the audience to understand we're in a music office? I'm curious as to when exactly in the process, because obviously A Beautiful Noise has been in development for years, even predating the pandemic. When apart what how early on in the process were you added to the team and were you a part of earlier workshops, any earlier developmental opportunities throughout the last several years?

[15:04] Kathy Fabian: Actually, I came on fairly late in the process this time. Sometimes I'm involved from the very first workshop or sitting down with directors really early before anyone even knows it's announced. But in this case, I came on for a workshop that was the last one before the real rehearsal. And it kind of came out of left field at the last minute during I think our first season back from the pandemic, which was already a clown car of theater. And we were like, how are we gonna pull this off? But so I um the best way I felt for me to actually understand the show quickly without me physically being there was to assign one person, one strong team member to literally be in the workshop rehearsal every day.

Um, and it's not something we normally do. We usually drop things off, take the notes, come when we need to come. But in this case, I thought, oh my gosh, it's a new musical. Michael Mayer is going to be creating up a storm. I don't want to be left in the dust and not understand what the show is about. So we had a team member, Brian, who pretty much was there watching it unfold daily, um, which he was thrilled to do. Uh, but it was great. And then I, you know, went in and saw the presentations and I was blown away. I mean, I hadn't been a part of the work before that, but I could see there was a lot of work gone into it before that point.

[16:45] Kathy Fabian: So you talk about rehearsals. I'm wondering, are you providing rehearsal props as well? Or are those being given by some other person or department stage manager?

[16:56] Kathy Fabian: No, we um we create the production props list, and we get an understanding of what's really going to be there, and then we work with stage management to decide what will facilitate rehearsal and what will actually take us down in terms of storing things and moving them around. So there are a series of sliders in this show that create a lot of irises and backgrounds, and um they contain a lot of lighting, and they were really important to Michael in terms of sculpting the shape of each scene. So we made some representational flats that could be slid on the floor in the rehearsal hall at the various levels that they play on stage. Um, we're talking plywood and a little bit of fabric and some felt on the ground, no paint, nothing fancy. Um, but we pretty much have to give something for everything in terms of furniture. Um, you know, but it isn't the real item unless it's so important to the play that the real item is needed right away.

[18:16] Kathy Fabian: Um, as you know, this this is there an I was gonna say, is there an example of that that you have? Uh well, the sofa for the end of Act One, um, which is part of the choreography in a very big way, which has to hold a lot of people and have a lot of things happen on it. That was something that we started discussing very early on. So we made a mock-up that could do everything it needed to do so that because we only had one chance at the real one with real period upholstery. So we mocked it up and said, okay, do these materials work? Does this size of the arm work? Is it too heavy for the actors to push? Does it need casters? Does it need breaks? And so a mock-up like that is really important because you learn from it what the final thing needs to do to have the correct engineering and function properly on stage.

[19:12] Kathy Fabian: That just reminded me of like what happens with the couch because it was obviously like over a month ago. So I'm, you know, those details are fuzzy, but yeah, that that moment for sure. I can see why. Yeah. So now that you're in pre-production for Broadway, you guys are starting previews November 2nd. What kind of work are you doing between the out-of-town tryout between then and November?

[19:33] Kathy Fabian: The good thing about the out-of-town tryout is you give it a stab. And then you can sit back and not only watch what you stabbed, but watch other people watching what you stabbed. So you learn a lot, and the creatives get together and discuss what worked, what didn't work. Things in my world go through a couple months of rigor on stage. And what I learned mostly is this gonna hold up for a Broadway run? Do I need to make a stronger one, a lighter one? So a lot of my notes in between are actually okay. And the radio handles, which were vintage to begin with, that are made out of leather and were made 50, 60, 70 years ago, they need to be rebuilt because all the stitchings coming apart of the leather is cracking.

So there's a lot of that that has to happen in between. Um, but also there are conceptual and style choices that um like some of the hanging lamps we want to maybe um try some new looks for. We have I'm sure you know there's a big part of the show without giving it away, that is based in magic and illusion. And we have a lot of units that you wouldn't even know from watching the show that have multiple tricks in and around them. So those tricky, magical props and pieces of scenery were revised and revised and revised and are still being revised to be absolutely perfect. So a lot of it is taking back what we provided and now making, you know, the best Cadillac version of it that we can get.

[21:33] Kathy Fabian: Yeah, I guess I didn't even really consider before. Obviously, props that were used for a much shorter run, you know, would need to be either reconceptualized or at least retouched for you know an open run because a lot a lot of things can happen. Um you had mentioned earlier about uh you mentioned uh working with shops. Are you outsourcing anything? And maybe the bigger pieces or maybe some more um unique pieces out to other shops to physically put together, or is that really mostly done in-house?

[22:03] Kathy Fabian: Yes, we do outsource. Normally we look at the whole list. I like to do as much as possible in my own shop because it's easier for me to manage the little changes and the little asks and oh, could we make that a little bit without having to retranslate and reprice with an outside shop? But when we have a production of this scale, a big Broadway new musical, there's no way I could do it all here. So we definitely outsource a lot of the larger things, things that have to do with specialty or custom fabrication, like say there was something made solely out of acrylic. I might send that to a shop that specializes in acrylic fabrication. Aluminum welding is something we don't do a lot of here. So anything welded from aluminum, I send to a certain array of shops to bid on.

And that is a large part of my job as the production prop supervisor. I'm really like a miniature production manager of the entire props package, just like the production manager is managing the entire production. So I have a lot of balls in the air, things in different states, things in different people's hands, and I have to go and visit during part of the process, ask for paint samples before they finish painting the final unit. And then some things are a copro between my shop and other shops. In certain cases, someone will build the carcass of a piece of furniture and then we will upholster it here, or they will build a wooden unit and I will stain it here. So absolutely, we work with anyone and everyone that can do something specialized.

And sometimes, you know, I'm not above asking like my mom if she's good at doing something. My mom has definitely cut out hundreds of leaves for House of Blue Leaves. Um, I needed someone to knit, I don't knit. Um, and so I found someone's grandmother to knit something for us for a show one time. I mean, you know, props is not, you don't wake up knowing how to just do everything. Part of being a good props person is going, oh now who would know how to do that? I mean, you I've done I've had to go to hospitals and ask questions about particular um items that I don't know how they work. You know, you visit places, you ask a lot of questions, and not being afraid to ask questions is the best way to approach this because you just can't pretend that you know how to weld it, knit it, paint it, sew it, and you don't have to. You you don't have to, you just have to be able to research it and ask questions, you know.

[24:50] Kathy Fabian: I'm curious about the maintenance of a show. Once you have everything in place and a show's running, what truly comes to mind is you worked on American Buffalo recently.

[25:00] Kathy Fabian: First of all, crazy job with props on that show.

[25:03] Mary Dina: Absolutely.

[25:04] Brian Sedita: Tell me about it.

[25:06] Kathy Fabian: Wild. Uh just set dressing, I can only imagine all the antique shops you visited. But in terms of like food, cigarettes, anything that's being consumed and used, I think of like company where they have the balloons having to probably be re-inflated every day or so often. Anything that gets used and needs to be maintained, how is that first of all decided upon? And second of all, chosen how it gets worked into the logistics of the week.

[25:38] Kathy Fabian: That information needs to be slowly gathered during the rehearsal process because if certain actors are ingesting something or putting it in their mouth, especially now during COVID, you know, it's not like we're gonna reuse things and we have to it's it is literally a running show perishable. It's done, it's uh you know, there are those little fake puff puff cigarettes that sometimes people used to label and say, This is mine. You can't reuse anything anymore. So those as we develop the rehearsal, um, if it's food, if it's um something that gets broken every night, like a breakaway vase, or you know, if someone shatters a glass, you have to order enough to and schedule deliveries for those items to be received um in the theater when the crew is available to receive them. There's a lot of timing and coordinating and logistics that goes into all of that.

[26:39] Kathy Fabian: Um when a show has a lot of running show perishables, often we are uh contracted past the opening of the show to weekly build the entire package and send it over there, um, or shop the entire package and send it over there. If it's a simple um assortment of goods that can just be gotten with Instacart, then the crew member can order what's needed from Instacart. But it's it all depends, you know. I mean, there's uh in musicals, it's often confetti and you know uh the kinds of things that are, you know, tossed or or exploded and money fall all over the stage. Money, exactly. Some I've done shows where something was set on fire every night, and we literally had to get a set of sheets flame treated, like eight sets of sheets, silk sheets per week, flame treated with a certain type of flame treatment that would ignite but would not burn the theater down. So the it a perishable can be in a lot of different forms, depends on the show.

[27:49] Kathy Fabian: Shows like American Buffalo, I mean it's obvious like almost everything is just destroyed at the end of the show. So we had to work backwards from watching the end of that play to go, oh my god, what's gonna live and what isn't? What do we make indestructible that can always just get stood back up and what won't be, what needs to be backed up eight times a week. So it's a process.

[28:12] Brian Sedita: That's that's fascinating. Are you contracted through like through opening to to kind of make repairs as needed, or is that a different type of contract where like if something does, you know, like if the couch fabric does start to wear after a hundred or two hundred performances or whatever it is, is that sort of like a case by case, or is it yeah?

[28:34] Kathy Fabian: Well, we re we after the show is open, our jobs are basically done, and then we we receive the performance reports every night. And there are times here when I'm reading the performance reports for the first two hours of the day, which we have shows running in London and Japan and blah blah blah. So we read them all, or I assign someone to read these ones and I read these ones, and then we make a massive list, and it's called our running shows to do list. So if Kinky Boots off Broadway, but which just opened, they need more shoebox lids, right? What we have a big list of what needs to be supplied, and then we have to work it into every week while we're producing normally one to two new shows.

So I follow all of the shows that I have running to make sure that the crew has what they need. And if something big comes up, we we say, okay, uh, you know, I talked to the general manager, it looks like they broke the chair last night. Here's what I have in stock. I can rent you this one for a few days until we can buy another one of those, and then we just work it out and we price it. But it is basically on an as needed basis at that point.

[29:46] Kathy Fabian: It's so interesting the fact that it might not be the exact thing, but the show has to go on that night. So kind of coming up with these little band-aids is also part of your interjection. Luckily, we're at 52nd Street and 10th Avenue, so I'm a bike ride away from all of these theaters. And don't get me wrong, I am like on call all weekend, like a Sunday matinee, somebody, or in in between the Saturday, you know, matinee and evening performance. Something broke. Like they know we're here, they know I'm around. You know, it's you there's no way. Yes, there's some plays that and musicals, if they don't have the item, it just it's they can't do the show, you know. So I mean, we we do our best to make backups of those kinds of things that we know might endure a lot.

But I mean, a musical, you you put you watch something go on on stage and a few minutes later gets spit out in smithereens like it went into a lion's cage sometimes. So there's like no end to the amount of we can find a pretty chair, but if it's in a musical and they're tap dancing with it and they're leaning back on it, that pretty chair needs to have steel put into it, like reinforcement, resin, three backups, and you know, nothing we can't really have anything nice in a musical. It has to be beefed up, it has to look like the former iteration of itself, but be really beefy. And so, yeah, that's uh it it takes you a long time to learn. There's still you know, things going out of here that I say, where do you think that's going? That's not going to Broadway like that. Nothing's been done to it. Yeah, we violate furniture often to get it to hold up.

[31:35] Mary Dina: So Kathy, do you want to move into our lightning round? Did you have any other final questions?

[31:41] Brian Sedita: No.

[31:41] Mary Dina: Okay. Yeah, we're good. We can go into the lightning round. What's one thing in the theater industry that confuses you?

[31:46] Kathy Fabian: That's a great question. Everything.

[31:50] Brian Sedita: That's my answer.

[31:51] Kathy Fabian: Amazing. Um, what are three adjectives that describe your ideal working environment?

[31:57] Kathy Fabian: Lively, energetic, and calm.

[32:00] Brian Sedita: Is there something in your process building props, coordinating all the shows that you have that you would find unique to you?

[32:08] Kathy Fabian: Yes. The team effort, we've built a structure in our Google Drive where everyone can be doing something to forward the work at any time because we have uh a group to do list for everything. So if you find yourself sitting in the shop, but you can't talk to Kathy Fabian because she's on a one-hour phone call, you can open the to-do lists in the Google Drive and see what's left to do because we all go in and cross off what we did uh when we did it. So you know what's done and you know what's not done, and you don't have to wait for me to answer. And I kind of love that because everyone uses it, and suddenly I see all these lines through things that I didn't know happened because people are going to the Google Drive and and making an effort. I'm a big fan of Google Drive.

[33:07] Brian Sedita: Um, are there any books, podcasts, any kind of resources that that you have used um, you know, coming up in your career, even through your entire career that you have found as a good resource that you might recommend to others?

[33:20] Kathy Fabian: Um I have those big uh volumes that that Tashin uh publishes that are the 60s, 70s, 50s, 80s, um, that have pictures of the ads from the era. Um, and you learn so much about what was going on in each decade by looking at what the ads were. Like, what did a cigarette ad look like in 1961? I mean, we this really tells you what people were sitting on, what they were wearing, what they were driving, what they were smoking, what they were drinking, and I use those all the time. I love them, and I've bought other people them. And I I say every prop shop should have those. I even brought the 60s and 70s one to rehearsal, and Michael and everyone were pouring through it because we're going, oh, remember those, remember that. I had those. Really funny. So cool. I mean, you get so much politics out of it, you get current events. It's more than just even just the visual. So I I love living through that kind of stuff.

[34:25] Brian Sedita: Is there another job in the theater industry that you would trade jobs with for one week? And which one would it be?

[34:32] Kathy Fabian: That's a question. Costumes. I think that would be fun. I think the costume designers are close proximity with the actors is you know, probably the strongest. And my game is to just only be in their space if they need me to. And so I don't really tend to build a lot of relationships with the actors. Some of them I've done a lot of plays with, and yes, I I do know them pretty well, and some of them are very friendly, and so, yes. But in general, I think the costume designer gets to to play really closely with the with the cast, and I think that would be sort of fun.

[35:15] Brian Sedita: Uh, what is one hobby you have outside of theater?

[35:18] Kathy Fabian: I like to ride my bike. I like to get outside and get some air because often you feel that you are stuffed inside of the dark theater for hours and hours and hours. So when I need to blow off steam, I just get on my bike. And I bike everywhere in the city. I barely ever get on the train. Um so definitely uh, you know, biking along the west side or or whatever. That's my favorite thing to do.

[35:42] Brian Sedita: And our final question is what's the last great piece of theater that you saw?

[35:47] Kathy Fabian: I just saw Kinky Boots for the nine millionth time, and I gotta say, I can't even believe like it still made me cry. It was difficult to do it off Broadway, but sitting in that audience, I was just like this cat, it's just there's something so special about it. I wouldn't I I normally like a really good uh straight play that's very serious, you know. But this show just brings so much joy that I gotta say that. Yeah, I think it's also like the perfect time for it, you know what I mean? Like it's it's the it's the the song, it's the story that like everyone needs right now.

[36:27] Mary Dina: Definitely. Thank you for joining us for the series and just for chatting with us about being fascinated by props. I was reminded halfway halfway through our conversation that I took a props like internship in college and was like taught how to use um a sew a sewing machine, which was a huge, a huge learning thing for me, making some aprons for the shop, of course. Um so just brought back a lot of memory so yeah thank you for that.

[36:51] Kathy Fabian: Thank you so much.

[36:52] Brian Sedita: Thanks for kickstarting our uh beautiful noise series.

[36:55] Kathy Fabian: Yes, of course. You're welcome. Good luck with the rest of it.

[36:58] Mary Dina: Thanks. Okay, take care thanks everyone for listening to this episode of Page to Stage to keep up with us you can find us on Instagram and Facebook at Page to Stage Podcast and if you're enjoying these conversations we would really appreciate it if you could take a couple minutes to rate and review us wherever you're listening to this podcast. Until next time that's Brian that's Mary we'll see you later bye.