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[0:02] Eliza Gunther: You're listening to Stage Door Podcast, the podcast celebrating theatre and creativity from on stage mishaps to career defining moments, hosted by Thespians, myself, Tori, and co-host Eliza.

[0:15] Eliza Gunther: Fortnightly, we will bring you industry professional guests, deep dives and more.

[0:22] Eliza Gunther: Hello everyone, and welcome back to Stage Door Podcast.

[0:26] Eliza Gunther: Welcome to our first deep dive of 2023.

[0:29] Eliza Gunther: And since I can't do it alone, here with me today is our own Mr. Cellophane, Gareth Isaac.

[0:34] Gareth Isaac: Hello, Eliza. Lovely to see you on this Sunday morning.

[0:40] Gareth Isaac: This cruel, cruel time at which we are recording.

[0:43] Eliza Gunther: It's the only time either of us could manage.

[0:46] Gareth Isaac: It's quite frankly criminal.

[0:49] Eliza Gunther: Oh, honestly, like I'm touring, you're studying. There's an hour time difference, but we're making it work.

[0:54] Gareth Isaac: It'll be alright.

[0:56] Eliza Gunther: We are.

[0:56] Gareth Isaac: We are making it work.

[0:58] Eliza Gunther: How are you doing, bud?

[0:59] Gareth Isaac: I'm doing really well. I think um it's been a bit of a crazy week here at the podcast. I'm actually by myself today.

[1:08] Gareth Isaac: Um, just because our beautiful Tori is going through a couple of personal things right now, so isn't able to join us this week.

[1:17] Gareth Isaac: But um, as soon as they are ready and ripe to go again, they will be back on the podcast.

[1:24] Gareth Isaac: But very glad that I was able to grab you for this deep dive on Chicago.

[1:31] Eliza Gunther: Alright, we're gonna do very fun things with this little show. Before we get started, I would like to acknowledge that I am on Tabaland.

[1:38] Eliza Gunther: And I am on the land of the Warodgery people, the traditional custodians of Melbourne, the land on which we work, live, and record.

[1:44] Eliza Gunther: And we recognize sovereignty was never ceded. This always was and always will be aboriginal land.

[1:49] Eliza Gunther: Well, today, of course, we are doing a beautiful deep dive on Chicago. But I guess I should ask, how is Tour Life going?

[1:57] Gareth Isaac: Oh, tour life is great, mate. Like, we're playing at Her Majesty's at the moment. We've been there a little over two months now.

[2:03] Gareth Isaac: We're playing straight through to the end of June. Adelaide is now on sale, so any Adelaide fans want to jump on and see us at the Festival Center come July, just pop on down, pop onto the website.

[2:15] Eliza Gunther: I saw the other day you uh did your 300th show, is that correct?

[2:19] Gareth Isaac: Yeah, like my personal 300th show. The show itself did 300 the week before that, but because I have taken a little bit of time off here and there just to travel back and forth to Sydney to see friends, do weddings, move out of houses, etc.

[2:33] Gareth Isaac: Uh, my 300th happened last week, and that is stupid to think about. And we're actually, I'm gonna date the podcast. We are two days away from our one-year anniversary of starting rehearsals.

[2:46] Eliza Gunther: Oh wow. That's so exciting. Do you guys celebrate that stuff?

[2:50] Gareth Isaac: Uh, not in a massive way, but this one I think is just gonna be for the cast to say, holy shit, guys, we've been doing this for 365 days.

[3:00] Gareth Isaac: That is an insane achievement, and we'll just have like little recognition throughout the day.

[3:05] Eliza Gunther: Well, it's a brilliant show, so um guys get to see our very own Gareth in it.

[3:13] Gareth Isaac: It's very exciting.

[3:14] Gareth Isaac: It's mostly falling over, but I do it artfully.

[3:16] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, I mean it's incredible, right?

[3:18] Gareth Isaac: Thank you.

[3:19] Eliza Gunther: Right, now that we're done with all that jazz, yeah.

[3:22] Gareth Isaac: See what I did there.

[3:23] Eliza Gunther: Let's kick off 2023 right with a visit to the Roaring Twenties as we deep dive into the seminal masterpiece musical that is Chicago.

[3:32] Eliza Gunther: Based on the 1926 play of the same name by Maureen Dallas Watkins, Chicago tells the story of chorus girl Roxy Hart, the prettiest woman ever charged with murder in Chicago, who experiences the fleeting highs and crushing lows of stardom and infamy through the lens of her sensationalized murder trial.

[3:51] Eliza Gunther: After reading the play in 1960, Gwen Vernon approached her husband, Bob Fosse, about the prospects of turning the piece into a full-blown musical.

[4:00] Eliza Gunther: Fosse would approach Watkins several years during her life and only successfully obtained the rights in 1969 after Watkins passed away.

[4:11] Eliza Gunther: Fosse approached collaborators Fred Ebb and John Kander to write the score and assist with the book.

[4:18] Eliza Gunther: While Fosse handled direction and choreography, and Vernon took up the role of the Merry Murderess herself, Roxy Hart.

[4:27] Eliza Gunther: The show opened on Broadway in 1975 at the 46th Street Theatre, now the Richard Rogers Theatre, home of Hamilton, and ran for 936 performances before closing in 1977.

[4:39] Eliza Gunther: The West End premiere soon followed in 1979, but Chicago is perhaps most famous for being revived in 1996 as part of the Encores series, before transferring to Broadway and has been playing ever since.

[4:53] Eliza Gunther: It's become the longest-running Broadway revival, the longest-running American musical on Broadway, and the second longest-running Broadway show of all time after my sweet child Phantom of the Opera.

[5:07] Gareth Isaac: No, who knew?

[5:08] Eliza Gunther: While the original production was not successful in the awards department, only picking up a Drama Desk Award for outstanding lighting design, the revival was nominated for a total of eight Tony Awards and won six of them, making it the most awarded Broadway revival of its time until the revival of South Pacific in 2008.

[5:29] Eliza Gunther: The show was also adapted into a blockbuster movie musical in 2002, which went on to win the Academy Award for Best Picture.

[5:38] Eliza Gunther: Today Chicago is a staple of the Broadway scene and is bringing the house down at the Ambassador Theatre in New York.

[5:45] Eliza Gunther: I should preface this deep dive with a fact about me.

[5:50] Eliza Gunther: I have never seen Chicago.

[5:52] Gareth Isaac: Like never, never, never?

[5:53] Eliza Gunther: Never, never, never, never, never.

[5:55] Gareth Isaac: I've seen enough clips of the film. I've seen like a bit of bootlegs here and there of the some of the more recent productions with new cast changes, but I've never sat down and watched the show.

[6:05] Eliza Gunther: Because here's the thing.

[6:11] Gareth Isaac: Because I've been exposed to musical theatre for so long, having done the degree, having now worked professionally.

[6:25] Gareth Isaac: It's become that iconic. Like everyone knows the story. Everyone knows they both reached for the gun. Everyone knows Mr. Cellophane, everyone knows I can't do it alone. The Hot Honey Rag. Like it's a ubiquitous Broadway show.

[6:39] Eliza Gunther: So I've never taken the time to actually seek it out and watch it.

[6:44] Gareth Isaac: And I don't know if that's a detriment.

[6:46] Eliza Gunther: No, I mean, I think that I think you are right to a certain degree because I think the show, you don't need too much more context than that.

[6:57] Gareth Isaac: There's a couple of really nice little moments you get throughout the thing, you know, Hunyak when Hunyak um unfortunately gets hung for Whoa, whoa, whoa, spoilers for nineteen seventy seven.

[7:10] Eliza Gunther: Spoilers for the Not Guilty um gets hung.

[7:15] Gareth Isaac: That's like a huge that's like a really nice moment of the stage musical and also the movie too.

[7:21] Gareth Isaac: It's one of those shows that the music has transcended past just musical theatre into like even uh pop culture and you know you'll find so many different shows doing different versions of the Cell Block Tango and you know parodying different parts of the show.

[7:38] Eliza Gunther: So it kind of like how many like high school recitals have you seen opening with All That Jazz?

[7:45] Gareth Isaac: Oh so many so many.

[7:48] Gareth Isaac: I've probably been a part of a few but um yeah I mean I I've watched the I've gotta say I was a big fan of the movie musical and that's how my how I fell in love with Chicago to begin with.

[8:05] Gareth Isaac: That was my it seemed to be a real gateway for a lot of people.

[8:08] Gareth Isaac: Like musicals in general movie musicals had fallen off in popularity in the 2000s but Chicago acted as a real gateway for people to dive back into it.

[8:18] Eliza Gunther: So after that we had like productions like La La Land in the mid-2010s like it was ultimately just a huge boost for the idea of oh we can sing and dance on camera again and it's actually doable.

[8:33] Gareth Isaac: Admittedly though the film did change a fair few things from uh the stage musical in sense of certain songs were cut because they only happened in Roxy's mind.

[8:42] Eliza Gunther: Yeah no that was some something that I noticed because there was a couple of songs.

[8:48] Gareth Isaac: I don't know. Is Class in the music isn't in the movie musical?

[8:51] Eliza Gunther: Class is not in the movie musical, but it was recorded fully with the original cut lyrics.

[8:57] Gareth Isaac: See, I'm surprised that one didn't make the cut, to be honest.

[9:01] Eliza Gunther: It's it's an interesting one, and I'm kind of annoyed it didn't, because Class is probably one of my favorite songs from the movie, like or the musical rather.

[9:11] Gareth Isaac: I'm falling over my words, it's Sunday morning, I'm allowed.

[9:13] Eliza Gunther: It's okay. It's 8:30 here.

[9:15] Gareth Isaac: It is exactly but yeah, uh Class originally uh contained a slur for the female genitalia that Bob Fosse was like, hey, can we can we not? That that's bad.

[9:26] Eliza Gunther: And then that lyric was added back in for the movie version of the song, and then the entire song got cut.

[9:35] Gareth Isaac: It's so sad. I love that song.

[9:38] Eliza Gunther: I mean, that's probably one of the things that I think stands out with Chicago for its time.

[9:44] Gareth Isaac: Because I think it was really innovative for when it was written.

[9:48] Gareth Isaac: The music itself is really different compared to everything that was being created around the same time.

[9:53] Eliza Gunther: And not only that, you have Bob Fosse's incredible dancing.

[9:57] Gareth Isaac: Exactly.

[9:58] Gareth Isaac: Actually, really interesting watching because I watched the movie, uh the musical last night, and like the stage musical.

[10:06] Eliza Gunther: I might have partaken in a slime tutorial.

[10:09] Gareth Isaac: I'm sorry, you found a slime tutorial without my assistance for a change?

[10:13] Eliza Gunther: I know! I know.

[10:15] Gareth Isaac: Come on, the little birds taken wing.

[10:17] Eliza Gunther: I have, I have. Uh Piracy Queen here.

[10:21] Gareth Isaac: Uh Yo ho ho, motherfucker.

[10:25] Eliza Gunther: So I watched that and I was really interesting because I was like, oh, there's no set.

[10:32] Eliza Gunther: And I mean, I already I kind of knew that, but there's really no extra set, no extra costumes really used throughout the show, and it's all reliant on Bob Fosse's choreography to really create shape and interest and obviously the lighting plot as well, which will do that.

[10:54] Gareth Isaac: But it's really interesting because you don't have colour in there.

[10:57] Gareth Isaac: You don't have like, you know, in the movie, you've got these bright colours, you see in the 20s, you're seeing um, you know, the styles and and so much more than what you do at the stage musical, and it's so interesting because I don't know which one I like more.

[11:14] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, exactly. Well, let's look at it this way film versus live theatre.

[11:19] Eliza Gunther: I think 2001 is perfectly encapsulated in that film.

[11:24] Eliza Gunther: Like you get their vision of what the 1920s vaudeville scene was, and that's great.

[11:32] Gareth Isaac: I think from what I have seen of Chicago, the stage musical is this perfect little encapsulation of what vaudeville actually is.

[11:43] Eliza Gunther: What like you said earlier, in the 70s, when this was written and produced, the music was so different because it was hearkening back to an earlier style with modern sensibility.

[11:55] Eliza Gunther: So the set itself, very bare, very basic, but that's because vaudeville is ultimately for those who don't know, a series of variety acts. So you could go from fire juggling one second to operatic descants the next when the next performer comes on. Which is exactly what it does because the entire operatic song that threw me when I watched the stage show. I was like, wait, what is going on right now? And then I was like, oh, right, okay, no, this is normal. This is the show, this is exactly what I signed up for.

[12:30] Gareth Isaac: Exactly. And that was the way that Kandra and Eb were brought on to write the book and the music. They styled each song and each character after a certain style of vaudeville act. So all these variety performers, like both reached for the gun is ventriloquism. Uh Mr. Cellophane is mime. It's just a lot of silly referential stuff, which leads into a further analysis of hey, we're glamorizing the criminal lifestyle.

[12:59] Eliza Gunther: Oh, a hundred percent. That was actually something I loved watching was um especially Mr. Cellophane because. And also there's so much like slapstick comedy, like the musical is so much more funny than the movie is like the movie kind of plays into the drama a little, like the comedic drama, whereas the musical, even I found in Cellblock Tango, each of the monologues was funny, not serious. Whereas I think sometimes when this song is taken into mainstream society, it's then like dramatized so much. Whereas so much of that song is actually quite funny, depending on how the actor portrays it and what they do with it.

[13:55] Gareth Isaac: That's a testament, I think, to the shift of focus and the shift of reality scope between film and theatre. Film does need to be smaller and in some cases more edgy, I guess, in this context. Meanwhile, on stage, you're allowed to be huge and make far bigger choices. This is like acting 101. So to be able to just go completely ham with the fact that you killed your husband over the fact he kept popping gum.

[14:28] Eliza Gunther: Exactly. That's hilarious. Sometimes there's like the perception of what something is and then the reality of what it is. And I was like, oh my god, that's so funny. I never thought I never saw it like that. And that was something like I really. Context is king, baby.

[14:41] Gareth Isaac: Yeah, context is key, it really is. And I mean, I guess in terms of this musical, it was actually written based on real murder trials that happen, which is It was, it was. Or at the very least, the play was. Uh the what the Watkins play was based on two very highly publicised murder cases in the 20s, because Maureen Watkins was originally a criminal reporter for one of the local papers.

[15:10] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, no, it was insane. I mean, I was reading something about um that at the time in Chicago, it says like feminine or attractive women could not be convicted. Yeah, and the things were played into in that sense historically, because at that time in history, only men were allowed on the jury.

[15:30] Gareth Isaac: It makes so much sense. Yeah, I mean, ultimately, like make the patriarchy work for you.

[15:35] Eliza Gunther: I know, that's the thing that I like I love. We love a murder slay queen. I know, and I think that's the most like horrific thing about the show is that like all these women have murdered these people, but none of them have any consequences. It's more how famous can I get afterwards so that I can pursue what I want to do in my life. Whereas when obviously Hunyak dies, that's when they're all like, oh shit. Oh, I could actually because it's the first ever woman hung.

[16:06] Gareth Isaac: Yeah. It's then, oh god, no, there is repercussions to my actions, but at the same time, there really isn't. They play it on thick, change the storylines, and yeah, they can get away with a lot. They can get away with murder, dare I say.

[16:25] Eliza Gunther: Um, yeah, that is one of the fascinating things about Chicago as a piece. When it first premiered in the 70s, the concept of glamourising criminality didn't really hit as hard as it did when it was revived. And I this is a theory, this is the working theory of sociology and psychology. I think it hit harder when it came back in the 90s because of the 24-hour news cycle. At that point, people were getting up-to-date information on literally every criminal case that existed. And one of the biggest ones of the time was OJ Simpson.

[17:04] Gareth Isaac: I didn't even think about that. Yeah, well, think about it. This was a time period where there was a live police chase of OJ driving down the highway, pursued by multiple police cars after being indicted for murder, and all he had in the back of his car was his passport and like a go bag.

[17:23] Eliza Gunther: Yeah. And still got away with murder. I mean, it kind of is reflective. I find this is why the musical is still relevant today, is because, you know, what what are you willing to do for the price of fame? And like, and not only like obviously with the OJ case being so sensationalized, and it's like, you know, whose side are you on? Is this a good person? Is it not? And because it's so much in the news, it was like the 20s when news went around every single day, everyone read the newspaper. Whereas there was obviously a period between there where, you know, young people weren't really reading the newspaper, they were reading magazines.

[18:02] Gareth Isaac: So bringing TV into it. I mean, I don't know. That would be kind of a cool thing to see. I don't know if you could do like a modernized version of Chicago, but that would actually still be relevant, I feel like.

[18:14] Eliza Gunther: Well, I mean, a lot of musicals have done that with implications of social media, like Dear Evan Hansen has a bit of that. Uh Muriel's wedding to an extent has a bit of social media in it. So I think it's been it's been touched on. I don't think it's been tapped to its full potential.

[18:29] Gareth Isaac: I agree. But ultimately, I think if they did a social media musical, then I would throw myself from a balcony.

[18:36] Eliza Gunther: It would be well, I I don't know. It was actually uh, I mean, another really fun thing, well not fun thing, but I guess like correlation. I was like fun thing? This might not be fun. Oh, here's here's a fun thing. Wait, it's not fun at all. The guy that you know um Amos is based off. He's in real life, his name was Albert. And um he bankrupted himself to defend his wife, and then he was obviously publicly dumped afterwards.

[19:11] Gareth Isaac: And I find that Yeah, almost like within days of her being a big thing. I know, and I just think that is just freaking awful. Imagine defending your partner and then just being like, no, sorry, um I I'm now free, so I've used you enough that I can I can go now.

[19:30] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, it's a pretty heinous act.

[19:32] Gareth Isaac: That's a good one. That's really dog. Anywho, I just thought that was a fun little tidbit and no, I I think it's actually nice that they include that to an extent in the musical with Amos being as pathetic as he is.

[19:46] Eliza Gunther: Uh, the things we do for love. I think Amos is the only one you actually care about, though. Like, you don't really care. I I don't know. In the movie, very different to the musical, but in the musical, I didn't really like care about Roxy or Velma getting acquitted, or I didn't I didn't I was more interested in their spectacle, if that makes sense. Not so much going rooting for them.

[20:13] Gareth Isaac: Are you saying that you are the target audience for this?

[20:16] Eliza Gunther: I think I am. Are you saying that you fell into the trap of a sensationalized criminal trial and gave the celebrity to people who didn't deserve it?

[20:24] Gareth Isaac: Eliza. I am, I am. But Amos is just the the character that you do root for, and obviously dependent on who is.

[20:35] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, he's he's the underdog.

[20:36] Gareth Isaac: Yeah, the underdog, and I always love an underdog story, so I'm like, oh no, maybe she will go back to him. And I'm like, no, he doesn't deserve that.

[20:45] Eliza Gunther: No.

[20:47] Gareth Isaac: No, he he deserves far better. Give Amos a pat on the head, a biscuit, and send him on his way.

[20:52] Eliza Gunther: Well, I guess maybe we should do a little bit of a game.

[20:56] Gareth Isaac: You're reading my mind, Eliza. I have concocted something incredibly relevant and will lead us into another point of discussion for later in the piece. We're going to play the celebrity game.

[21:10] Eliza Gunther: Oh my god.

[21:11] Gareth Isaac: Oh yes. For those who are unaware, Chicago, being as long running as it is, has a history of celebrity stunt casting. And I feel like it's one of the only musicals that can get away with it. Eliza, I am going to read to you the names of three people who may or may not have played a role in Chicago. You are gonna have to tell me which of those three. There's gonna be three names. One of them has never touched Chicago professionally. And you're gonna tell me who is who.

[21:43] Eliza Gunther: Okay. Alright, Eliza, are you ready for the celebrity game?

[21:47] I am ready for the celebrity game.

[21:49] Gareth Isaac: Excellent. Let's look at the role of Roxy Hart. Out of these three actors, who has not played Roxy Hart professionally? Brooke Shields, Ashley Simpson, or Julie Andrews.

[21:57] Eliza Gunther: Roxy?

[22:02] Gareth Isaac: Yeah.

[22:03] Eliza Gunther: Sh wait. What?

[22:05] Gareth Isaac: Yeah.

[22:06] Eliza Gunther: Okay, I know for sure, um, Simpson has. So I'm thinking Julie Andrews? Surely not.

[22:14] Gareth Isaac: Okay, Julie Andrews.

[22:16] Eliza Gunther: I'm gonna vote Julie.

[22:17] Gareth Isaac: There it is. That took you longer than I thought it would.

[22:20] Eliza Gunther: I was like, surely not, but then I'm like, Brooke Shields?

[22:24] Gareth Isaac: Oh, that was that's actually very good. I appreciated that.

[22:26] Eliza Gunther: I'm just here for your entertainment, it's fine.

[22:30] Gareth Isaac: Well, look, someone has to be.

[22:32] Eliza Gunther: Exactly.

[22:33] Gareth Isaac: Alright, let's move on. Out of these three actors, who has not played Billy Flynn? Huey Lewis, Michael C. Hall, and Hugh Laurie.

[22:45] Eliza Gunther: Oh, Michael C. Hall?

[22:48] Gareth Isaac: Incorrect. He has played Billy Flynn on Broadway. The only one who hasn't is Hugh Laurie.

[22:56] Eliza Gunther: Really?

[22:57] Gareth Isaac: I thought Hugh Laurie had. That's just that's my bad.

[23:00] Eliza Gunther: Nope, he has never touched the role. But I appreciate you putting so much faith in my boy Hugh.

[23:05] Gareth Isaac: Yep, I did. That'd be excellent, actually. I still can't believe Huey Lewis played Billy Flynn.

[23:11] Eliza Gunther: I've seen snippets of it. It's not bad.

[23:13] Gareth Isaac: Not bad.

[23:15] Eliza Gunther: No, it's not bad.

[23:16] Gareth Isaac: Wow. Like there you go. Like it's not Ibsen, but it'll do the trick.

[23:34] Eliza Gunther: Oh, surely Sophia Vegara.

[23:37] Gareth Isaac: No.

[23:37] Eliza Gunther: Sophia Vegara has played Mama Morton on Broadway.

[23:41] Gareth Isaac: The only one who hasn't is Tony Lamond.

[23:44] Eliza Gunther: No.

[23:44] Gareth Isaac: Ooh, ooh, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.

[23:47] Eliza Gunther: No way.

[23:48] Gareth Isaac: Has Sophia on Broadway.

[23:50] Eliza Gunther: Yeah.

[23:51] Gareth Isaac: Whoa, I'm shook.

[23:52] Eliza Gunther: Okay.

[23:53] Gareth Isaac: I kinda wanna see that.

[23:55] Eliza Gunther: Oh, that's great.

[23:56] Gareth Isaac: Babe, you've only got one of three, and that's the game, unfortunately.

[24:04] Eliza Gunther: I tried so hard.

[24:06] Gareth Isaac: And got so far.

[24:07] Eliza Gunther: But in the end.

[24:11] Gareth Isaac: Oh, you shouldn't trust me to do the games.

[24:14] Eliza Gunther: Like poised by your own patard.

[24:19] Gareth Isaac: It's actually crazy how many famous people have done the show.

[24:25] Eliza Gunther: Oh, yeah, it's really ridiculous.

[24:27] Gareth Isaac: Like just looking at the wiki list alone.

[24:30] Eliza Gunther: We're looking at Billy Ray Cyrus has played Billy Flynn.

[24:34] Gareth Isaac: We've had Peter Davidson play Amos Hart on the West End.

[24:38] Eliza Gunther: Peter Davidson, of course, being the fifth actor to play Doctor Who, Joel Gray originating the role, John Barriman as Billy Flynn.

[24:45] Gareth Isaac: Like, it's ridiculous the amount of people who've played these characters.

[24:49] Eliza Gunther: But I feel like Chicago is the only show that could get away with this.

[24:55] Gareth Isaac: I know.

[24:55] Eliza Gunther: I mean, not only that, you've got Usher.

[24:57] Gareth Isaac: Like come on now.

[24:59] Eliza Gunther: Tay Diggs.

[25:00] Gareth Isaac: Literally, and my favourite is right now, they've got Jinx Monsoon as Mama Morton.

[25:07] Eliza Gunther: Obviously, if you don't know.

[25:08] Gareth Isaac: Can we talk about an amazing drag queen?

[25:13] Eliza Gunther: Yeah.

[25:13] Gareth Isaac: And got their start on RuPaul's Drag Race, played through a few seasons on that, did some all-stars, and is just this incredibly funny, brilliant, talented performer.

[25:28] Eliza Gunther: And is so I it's so thrilling to see them on Broadway because every time I would watch them on RuPaul's, I would go.

[25:36] Gareth Isaac: I think Jinx needs to be like having their own show, like their own stage show.

[25:42] Eliza Gunther: And I watched a little bootleg on um TikTok of Jinx's Mama Morton, and I found it sensational.

[25:51] Gareth Isaac: It was so good, it was everything I wanted it to be and more, and I just thought it was such a clever casting choice.

[25:58] Eliza Gunther: That one I really raised.

[26:00] Gareth Isaac: Yeah, well, I might be misquoting, so correct if I'm wrong. Uh Jinx has gone on record and said the first time I thought, oh, I can dress up as a woman was when they saw Chicago.

[26:15] Eliza Gunther: And so this is a beautiful full circle moment for them to be able to now be on the Broadway stage in the show that inspired them.

[26:23] Gareth Isaac: Oh, that's so beautiful.

[26:25] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, it's it's really fucking lovely, and it makes me so happy.

[26:29] Gareth Isaac: Follow your dreams, kids.

[26:30] Eliza Gunther: You can do whatever the hell you want.

[26:32] Gareth Isaac: I know, and they seem so lovely at Stage Door, taking time to just like sign everyone's um playbills and really take time to say thank you to everyone.

[26:41] Eliza Gunther: And I just like I really appreciate that because these are the people that got Jinx there, and it was just yeah, I think it's such a beautiful moment to see also not only that, but see a drag queen in this role.

[26:54] Gareth Isaac: It's the first ever time. Um, but on that note, I do question there is some obviously Pamela Anderson did it recently, and it actually everyone was saying that she was brilliant in the role, which would have been really interesting.

[27:07] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, I saw a bit of footage of Pam, and she was she was really good.

[27:10] Gareth Isaac: See that and that's really interesting to me, because watching the show, I did have um a moment of, oh my god, all of these famous people have played these roles, but some of like parts of this show are quite intrinsically dance heavy and very technical dance, especially Velma, but Velma and Roxy are incredibly dance-heavy roles and very technique-based because Bob Fossey's work is actually not the easiest to nail, if that makes sense.

[27:40] Eliza Gunther: No, it is a hundred percent like um for those who are unaware, Bob Fossey is essentially the choreographer's choreographer.

[27:48] Gareth Isaac: The man has legendary works all over Broadway.

[27:52] Eliza Gunther: I want to say Gypsy and Sweet Charity were his as well.

[27:54] Gareth Isaac: He's he's just, you know, everyone talks about Bob Fossey's work because it is so it was so different for the time and and so revolutionary as uh as a style and its own style within musical theatre, which is a really hard thing to accomplish.

[28:10] Eliza Gunther: To set the bar so very high that people are reaching for you.

[28:14] Gareth Isaac: Even today, Bob Fossey is referenced in every dance class in every musical theatre degree, people are still reaching for the heights that he set, and that's an incredible legacy to have.

[28:27] Eliza Gunther: Exactly. I mean, I was reading something which was um when they wrote Raz Razzle Dazzles.

[28:32] Gareth Isaac: Oh, yes.

[28:33] Eliza Gunther: Um, before they took it to him, they were like, let's just add in a couple of finger snaps because Bob will love it, and he did.

[28:41] Gareth Isaac: Exactly.

[28:42] Eliza Gunther: He was like, Yes, perfect.

[28:44] Gareth Isaac: Well, there was also Razzle Dazzle in rehearsals. There was a moment that got far too much for the actors when Fossey was like, let's just make Razzle Dazzle a fucking orgy on the steps of the courthouse.

[28:56] Eliza Gunther: I read that, and I was like, whoa, okay, that would have been interesting.

[29:00] Gareth Isaac: I appreciate the candor, but maybe pull it back.

[29:04] Eliza Gunther: And Jerry Orbach, who played uh Billy Flynn at the time, also Lumiere from Beauty and the Beast.

[29:09] Gareth Isaac: I love him so much.

[29:11] Eliza Gunther: He uh the official quote is, yeah, Fossey was talked out of allowing this staging when Orbach convinced him that he was missing the Brechtdian subtlety intrinsic in the number.

[29:24] Gareth Isaac: Which the most actor sentence I have ever read.

[29:28] Eliza Gunther: Yes.

[29:29] Gareth Isaac: How ridiculous.

[29:32] Eliza Gunther: But it's kind of funny because I it also probably would have been a little bit too much for the commercial sense of where the show was going when it was really.

[29:40] Gareth Isaac: Oh, 100%.

[29:42] Eliza Gunther: It it would have been really pushing the boundaries for the time.

[29:45] Gareth Isaac: So I'm sure you could potentially get away with that now, but not at the time, I don't think.

[29:50] Eliza Gunther: No, I I don't think so at all.

[29:52] Gareth Isaac: Also, I don't want to see Jerry Orbach having an orgy.

[29:55] Eliza Gunther: Exactly.

[29:55] Gareth Isaac: I'm a that's not high on a list of my bucket list shows.

[30:00] Eliza Gunther: I think that was kind of one of the coolest parts of this show is the like the switch to like the Razzle Dazzle or Billy Flynn numbers and how different Billy Flynn's numbers are in this show, and there's a little bit of feathers, and you know, you've got the show girl and the um all the money, you know, that kind of thing that comes into mind, which I find is really cool.

[30:23] Gareth Isaac: I I think it's a great way of differentiating between his numbers and say Amos' numbers or even Roxy's numbers to an extent, because Billy is a legal eagle, he's successfully criminal in that sense, and I believe he's one of the best at it.

[30:42] Eliza Gunther: That's why I believe his numbers get that little extra zhuge, that little extra shine and polish.

[30:47] Gareth Isaac: 100%.

[30:48] Eliza Gunther: I mean, that's kind of the cool thing about Chicago is that it's mostly uh female dominated and driven storyline.

[30:59] Gareth Isaac: It's it's um other than Billy Flynn, you don't really have any other mask characters on stage other than Freddie and some obviously ensemble numbers, ensemble members.

[31:09] Eliza Gunther: But that is I think one of the things that really stood out to me seeing where it was obviously written in the 70s and seeing that shows like this really started pushing forward.

[31:22] Gareth Isaac: Oh, females can lead a show.

[31:25] Eliza Gunther: It doesn't just have to be a mask character leading a show, it can be a femme character, you know.

[31:30] Gareth Isaac: Yeah, we we're done with the on genou. Let's bring in some bad bitches.

[31:34] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, and I think that's why it was so successful, and obviously maybe it wasn't received as well at the time, but then the revival obviously being more successful.

[31:43] Gareth Isaac: I think it was probably just ahead of its time a little bit, but it really pushed I think so.

[31:47] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, it it definitely pushed music theatre into this modern sense where you have so many incredible musicals that are based around a female protagonist or antagonist as they say.

[32:00] Gareth Isaac: Yeah.

[32:01] Eliza Gunther: Anti-hero I would call them.

[32:03] Gareth Isaac: Anti-hero which is like the one of the things that really I think maybe stood out to me and why I loved this show so much is because it really shows like women also claiming their own sexuality like it's a very sexual show.

[32:18] Eliza Gunther: Oh a hundred percent it it it's probably one of the horniest musicals I've ever seen.

[32:23] Gareth Isaac: Exactly I mean and and the funny thing is like I don't think musicals are really I I don't know correct me if I'm wrong obviously you have Milon Rouge and a few things that are very sexy in that in that sense I was gonna say Moulon Rouge it can get incredibly horny when it wants to.

[32:38] Eliza Gunther: Yes Moulin Rouge is one of the horny ones but Chicago is the one that gets rivaled with it.

[32:44] Gareth Isaac: Yeah and I mean without Chicago you probably wouldn't have something like Moulin Rouge and you know never a million years.

[32:51] Eliza Gunther: Yeah because it pushed the boundaries I on stage I just go oh my goodness they're wearing nothing like absolutely nothing.

[32:59] Gareth Isaac: But it's also like they're so like um I don't know embodied in their own body which is such like a

[32:59] Eliza Gunther: Yeah that there is there is an ownership to it no matter what production you see no matter what clips I've seen.

[33:12] Gareth Isaac: Yes it's not like I'm being objectified.

[33:17] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, it's not an objectification, it's just cool.

[33:17] Gareth Isaac: This is where I am, this is what I am wearing.

[33:22] Eliza Gunther: You're gonna have to deal with it as I tell my story.

[33:23] Gareth Isaac: Exactly.

[33:23] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, like if I'm gonna be in the public eye, I might as well look hotter.

[33:29] Gareth Isaac: I have to ask.

[33:30] Gareth Isaac: Exactly.

[33:30] Eliza Gunther: I mean, call me a sucker for a typecast, but I love Mr. Cellophane.

[33:31] Eliza Gunther: I mean, do you have a favorite song from the show?

[33:34] Gareth Isaac: Like, it's in my rep book.

[33:37] Eliza Gunther: It's one of my favourite songs to just belt out like that top note at the end is just nice and feels good.

[33:43] Gareth Isaac: That is entirely based on my experience though.

[33:46] Eliza Gunther: But I top song for me though, outside of my own wants and needs as a tenor, is I'm I'm basic.

[33:54] Gareth Isaac: I love cell block tango.

[33:56] Eliza Gunther: It's so good.

[33:57] Gareth Isaac: Oh, it's just the best.

[33:59] Eliza Gunther: Yes.

[34:00] Gareth Isaac: I think mine is probably cell block tango, but uh yeah, I it's always cell block tango.

[34:07] Eliza Gunther: Can't go fast.

[34:09] Gareth Isaac: You tried to, though.

[34:09] Eliza Gunther: You tried to go past it.

[34:11] Gareth Isaac: I did, I really tried.

[34:12] Eliza Gunther: But that being said, I do love all that jazz.

[34:15] Gareth Isaac: That one is such a sensational act one opener, which you don't anticipate.

[34:22] Eliza Gunther: Like, what a brilliant opening to a show.

[34:25] Gareth Isaac: Yeah, like you just don't anticipate that it just comes out and you're like, oh wait, this is like the number that I and I mean that's the thing.

[34:34] Eliza Gunther: You think about you think all that jazz is the number that you remember from this show, but then you're like, oh, the cellbook tango, Mr. Cellophane.

[34:40] Gareth Isaac: It's just hit after hit after hit.

[34:44] Eliza Gunther: Yeah, this this show does not miss ever.

[34:46] Gareth Isaac: Every song in it is brilliant.

[34:48] Eliza Gunther: I mean, that's Candor and Ebb.

[34:49] Gareth Isaac: That's Candor and Eve.

[34:50] Eliza Gunther: That's Bob Fosse and that's Chicago.

[34:53] Gareth Isaac: Thank you so much, Gareth, for joining me this week for a deep dive.

[34:57] Eliza Gunther: That's alright.

[34:57] Gareth Isaac: Always happy to be here.

[34:59] Eliza Gunther: We'll be back with you guys, with uh more episodes to come.

[35:03] Gareth Isaac: I think Tori will be back as soon as possible.

[35:05] Eliza Gunther: But um, if you don't see their face for a little while, don't fret.

[35:10] Gareth Isaac: They are still here very much.

[35:12] Eliza Gunther: Um, but until next time, stay happy, healthy, and safe, and we'll see you then.

[35:17] Gareth Isaac: Bye.